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Syd'sDad
02-20-2008, 06:22 PM
I'm curious...

I see quite a bit of negative sentiment toward chiropractic care and scoliosis, yet Rolfing and the Schroth method seem to be embraced, why do you suppose that is? Are they all not variations of a theme? Isn't the coveted SpineCor brace ordinarily administered by chiros?

I ask this because there is a chiropractor in my town that has trained at the Clear Institute and seems to be well respected by both medical doctors (our family G.P., who is also a D.O., being one of them) and other chiropractors in the area. After many consultations with pediatric orthopedic surgeons, the general consensus is: bracing at night and see what happens. I'm not one to accept the status quo and am considering taking my daughter to the chiropractor. Not looking for a miracle cure, I understand the limits of all treatments, but perhaps just a different approach in conjunction with "standard" treatment.

What struck me about this man was his passion and compassion. He was the only "professional" that looked my daughter straight in the eye and asked "So how are you doing through all of this?" None of the medical doctors even came close to this level of humanity.

Stroke aside, what am I missing with respect to chiropractic care? If my daughter feels better and more hopeful with an additional approach, why not pursue it?

I'd love to entertain your thoughts...

Karen Ocker
02-20-2008, 07:47 PM
Would that it would be so easy!!! Just go to the chiro and be fixed :rolleyes: It's never worked for anyone here.
Do a search on this forum about chiro treatments and learn about our experiences.

Schroth involves bracing(Cheneau)/physiotherapy and exercises. Best results are with smaller curves in young adolescents. There is a large thread here discussing the Spinecore Brace. You can contact those parents and get help there.

No one on this Forum here has presented with permanent curve reductions after the Clear Institute. You can also do a search of the Forum and contact others who have gone through it.

Compassion is great in a health care provider but the proof is in the results.

Syd'sDad
02-20-2008, 09:02 PM
Would that it would be so easy!!! Just go to the chiro and be fixed It's never worked for anyone here.
Do a search on this forum about chiro treatments and learn about our experiences.

Schroth involves bracing(Cheneau)/physiotherapy and exercises. Best results are with smaller curves in young adolescents. There is a large thread here discussing the Spinecore Brace. You can contact those parents and get help there.

No one on this Forum here has presented with permanent curve reductions after the Clear Institute. You can also do a search of the Forum and contact others who have gone through it.

Compassion is great in a health care provider but the proof is in the results.

Ahh, I was hoping you would reply as you seem to be very anti-chiro, why is that? Why such a strong conviction against chiro? I'm looking for specific reasons as to why you dislike chiro as a SUPPLEMENTAL treatment. Give me arguments to talk me out of chiropractic. Are they all quacks or is there any merit to their practice?

Again, there are no guarantees in ANY treatment. I can search this forum and find a negative aspect in any treatment discussed here. This Chiro has made no promises that he can "fix" my child and for that matter neither has any "real" doctor.

Is it not realistic to assume that if any exercises and/or physiotherapy produce a curve reduction, they must be continued to maintain that reduction? Look at bracing; in many cases, once it is complete, the curves will still progress.


Compassion is great in a health care provider but the proof is in the results.

Thus far, my daughter's ortho has shown me no results either. Each provider must be given fair and ample time to produce results.

I'm not chasing faith healers or snake oil salesmen. I'm performing my due diligence in exploring all alternatives so that years from now I'm not consumed with "what if's".

MATJESNIC
02-20-2008, 10:20 PM
Sy's Dad,

I agree with you that it seems many chiropractors have the nicest dispositions. The ortho who diagnosed Nicole was cold and unfeeling. The chiro who fitted her for the Spinecor was patient and kind. With that being said, we personally did not want anyone "adjusting" our growing child who had scoliosis. We did not feel comfortable with that. I believe that chiros can be wonderful for many things. However, for us, we used the chiros to only gently work on her muscles while the Spinecor was trying to hold her curves. As you can see from my signature, Nicole had surgery 5 months ago. No matter what you decide, be sure you continue to be monitored with an orthopedic. That would be my only advice. I do not believe that chiros can change scoliosis curves. I wish you all the best.

Syd'sDad
02-20-2008, 11:10 PM
Sy's Dad,

I agree with you that it seems many chiropractors have the nicest dispositions. The ortho who diagnosed Nicole was cold and unfeeling. The chiro who fitted her for the Spinecor was patient and kind. With that being said, we personally did not want anyone "adjusting" our growing child who had scoliosis. We did not feel comfortable with that. I believe that chiros can be wonderful for many things. However, for us, we used the chiros to only gently work on her muscles while the Spinecor was trying to hold her curves. As you can see from my signature, Nicole had surgery 5 months ago. No matter what you decide, be sure you continue to be monitored with an orthopedic. That would be my only advice. I do not believe that chiros can change scoliosis curves. I wish you all the best.

Thanks for the reply Melissa. My Sydney is 13 like your Nicole and I completely understand what you are say about comfort levels where adjustments are concerned, that is exactly what I am wrestling with. I made it clear to both the ortho and chiro that I was interested in a partnership of all involved and would have it no other way. I would have run away fast had the chiro asked me to give up the brace. At this point I have not made a decision and have in no way committed to the chiro. While he studied the clear system, he doesn't seem to subscribe to it's principals in their entirety. He also work with MD's as part of his treatments.

To compound the issue, My daughter is a good candidate for VBS (the way I'd like to go) but my wife and Sydney will have no part of it. It is for that reason that I began to seek local alternatives to SUPPLEMENT bracing.

I too believe that chiro cannot permanently correct curves (33L, 30T) but perhaps it can improve comfort and joint flexibility. Where did I put that crystal ball??????

I wish you all the best...

Sherie
02-20-2008, 11:11 PM
My first contact with a chiro was to fit my daughter in a Spinecor, I too was very impressed with the time he spent with us and his compassion/passion for what he was doing. He was confident that he could reduce her curves. He also implemented a therapy program and nutrition program. We went in 3x/week for 3 months, she wore the brace diligently and took the prescribed supplements, guess what? No improvement at all. I was very disappointed and upset at the time and money we spent, I took him at his word that he could help her. He used a variety of therapies, not nearly as rigorous as Clear, which I put my daughter through also with Dr. Woggon. That is all discussed on the Clear Institue thread which you may have already seen. I was also very disappointed with the results of the Clear method. Since we've been through it, I hear they're recommending bracing which was not part of the program before. We tried one other method with a different chiro., he was the only one who didn't make any promises. That didn't work either and I can't even recall the name of the therapy right now.

I would agree that chiros seem to be warmer and more caring but in the end, it's the results that matter. My daughter was sure her curves were being reduced when she was in therapy, so it was an even greater disappointment when nothing happened. The one thing that I appreciate now is honesty, don't get my hopes up only to have them squashed, that's the difference between medical doctors and chirop. I've never had a medical doctor tell me he can cure my daughter's scoliosis.

If you have the time, money and commitment to see this through for who knows how long, maybe years, then try it. I understand where you're coming from, I would have tried anything to prevent my daughter from having surgery and nobody could tell me otherwise, just prepare yourself if it doesn't have the results you're expecting. I like that your chiro. isn't making any promises, at least that's realistic. Good luck.

Syd'sDad
02-20-2008, 11:18 PM
Thanks so much Sherie.

It is insight like yours and Melissa"s that is so valuable to me/us a we make our journey along this crooked (pun intended :eek: ) path.

Joe

Sherie
02-20-2008, 11:26 PM
Just one more thing Joe, my daughter's curves actually increased during the time periods she was doing therapy. I feel certain that was the path the scoliosis was going to take anyways, but I had this uneasy feeling that maybe something we were doing was contributing to it. It's definitely something to think about, you don't need any additional guilt.

I would have loved to explore the VBS option, but my daughter was already past that point when I first heard about it and it was much newer at that time too. If we could do it again and I had your crystal ball, I would have definitely gone that route.

Take care.

Pooka1
02-20-2008, 11:31 PM
My standard comment on chiro is to say that it is included in The Amazing Randi's $1 million dollar paranormal challenge. That is to say, you prove it works, you win the million dollars.

In all the years the prize has been available, nobody has won it for anything including chiro.

That said, my horse benefits from "chiro." My horse has pain on certain regions of his topline associated with his recovery from an injury. The vet does some quick push motion and the pain is instantly removed. Now this is obviously either freeing an impinged nerve or otherwise deadening the pain response because you canNOT produce a pain response on that portion of his back after the vet does the voodoo that he do. :eek:

So although the vet is doing "something," I don't know on what basis he calls it chiro. It is NOT like the chiro I received when one of my discs in my back was dissolving and I was getting knife-like pain until the vertebrae fused on their own. There was no instant relief like my horse gets. And that chiropractor was honest with me that the pain would stop when the vertebrae fused. I think he was just basically massaging the muscles.

And I'll note neither the vet nor I have won the million dollars. :(

I wish you good luck with your child.

HaleyMom
02-21-2008, 07:25 AM
There are alot of different chiros out there, each with their own technique- some good, many bad.

We started seeing a chiro after my daughter transitioned from a Boston brace to a Spinecor. Neither the brace fitter nor the chiro claimed that they could reverse her curve or cure her scoliosis. Both just wanted stablization and pain relief.

The chiro did not do forcefull adjustments, instead helped with tired, tense, sore muscles - my daughers back had suffered a lot of muscle atrophy in the short time she wore her Boston brace. He also helped her with the exercises that the SpineCor provider recommended (better him nagging her to do her exercises every day than me). Her back is now very strong and pain free. So, for us it was a positive experience.

I probably would not have taken her to a chiro if I had not had a similar positive experience myself. I too have mild scoliosis that has come back to haunt me now that I'm in my 40s. Without the natural curvature in my neck the bones were starting to degenerate and my neck could no longer turn side to side. After 3 months of traction, 3 times a week, I can turn my head and no longer have knife pains between my shoulder blades and headaches.

Chiro is not for everyone. If you decide to see one - shop around first. Its a lot harder to find a good chiro than a good ortho.

Syd'sDad
02-21-2008, 01:11 PM
More great dialogue, thanks Pooka1 and HaleyMom.

I wish I could get my wife on board with VBS, one problem here is the narrow window we have available and at this point we have no idea whether the curves are progressing or not. My daughter was just diagnosed on 01/14/08, so we have only established a baseline at this point. I'd hate to jump right at VBS if the curves are stable...

I've allowed the chiro to do two gentle adjustments on my daughter during our initial consultations and I will say that my daughter felt much better afterward and wants to return, thus complicating the decision. I'm very analytical about things and don't necessarily believe in chiropractic; although I will say that chiro is the only thing that helped my sciatica from an injury in my early 30's.

Does anyone have any experience with the MedX Core Torso Rotation Machine?

Sherie
02-21-2008, 01:44 PM
Dr. Woggon has one and uses it as part of the therapy. You're chiro. should be familiar with it if he's been to Dr. W's to train.

Karen Ocker
02-21-2008, 02:58 PM
Syd's dad:
I was 11 years old, in the 6th grade. I went to the chiro 3 times a week that
whole school year. He said he could help. My parents believed him. We had no medical insurance and my parents had little money. My curves became so severe that I ended up with a 100 deg curve.
Do you understand why I have a "negative attitude" to chiro?

Another thing to consider is never allow a chiro to adjust the neck. There is a documented case(Canada) of a child having neurological damage from the cervical spinal nerves getting sheared with the neck maneuver.
This can also cause headaches and strokes in adults.
I had one patient who could never swallow again after her "adjustment" because of nerve damage.
My son's father-in-law went for back pain to a chiro. He ended up with such a headache/dizziness from the neck manipulation that they did a CAT scan from the head. It went away after stopping treatments. In adults arteriosclerotic plaque can be sheared off.
As a medical professional myself I would never bring my child to a chiro.

Rolfing is manipulating fasciasoft tissue and did help me with scar release and loosened areas where my muscles were contracted from long standing scoliosis. Those results lasted for me.

I suggest you and your wife do a thorough search of the forum/archives to learn what works and why.
My curves were 30 degrees once upon a time.

Syd'sDad
02-21-2008, 05:08 PM
Do you understand why I have a "negative attitude" to chiro?
ABSOULTELY! That fills in the gaps, thanks Karen.

I too, am fearful of manipulating the cervical spine because of the risks but I suppose there are serious risks with surgery as well. I think the difference here is that surgery has a quantifiable risk to benefit ratio whereas chiro, at this point, does not... I saw a link you posted about the stroke risk and I think it was something like 1:5.4 million adjustments but it also questioned how many occurrences go unreported.. Serious food for thought...

mariaf
02-21-2008, 06:05 PM
To compound the issue, My daughter is a good candidate for VBS (the way I'd like to go) but my wife and Sydney will have no part of it.

Hi Syd's Dad,

You'll see from my signature that my son had VBS nearly 4 years ago. I am just curious - has your daughter been evaluated at Shriners, or elsewhere, with regard to her candidacy for VBS? I agree that at 33 degrees, provided she has some flexibility AND a decent amount of growth left to do, she could be a good candidate. But, as you say, at 13 years old, there's not a big window.

It makes a lot of sense what you said about the fact that she was just diagnosed so you don't know if the curve is progressing or not. Hence, my curiousity about whether she was seen by an ortho who performs this procedure.

I'd also like to let everyone know that a website was just put together (by parents of kids who've had VBS). The site is www.vertebralstapling.com. I think it offers some excellent information, personal stories and an opportunity to "chat" with those who have been through it.

Good luck!

Syd'sDad
02-22-2008, 03:41 PM
Hi Mariaf,

Yes I have talked at length with Janet Cerrone at Shriners Phily. She thought my daughter fit the profile with a risser score of 0, wrist flims that indicate far from incomplete growth and no period yet. Janet requested films to evaluate but when I hit a wall with my wife and daughter on the subject, I backed off and have not sent them ( I didn't want to waste her time if I can't get the family on board).

Thanks for the interest...

Karen Ocker
02-22-2008, 03:54 PM
Syd's Dad:

It sounds like there is denial, misinformation and fear gripping your daughter and wife. We've all been there to one degree or another.

There is a web site for kids: spinekids.com where your daughter can chat with other kids.

The link below has lots of information that can help your wife:

http://www.scoliosis.org/info.php

Wishing
02-22-2008, 04:47 PM
For Pooka1:

Who is the VET your horse goes to?

Pooka1
02-22-2008, 04:51 PM
Hi Mariaf,

Yes I have talked at length with Janet Cerrone at Shriners Phily. She thought my daughter fit the profile with a risser score of 0, wrist flims that indicate far from incomplete growth and no period yet. Janet requested films to evaluate but when I hit a wall with my wife and daughter on the subject, I backed off and have not sent them ( I didn't want to waste her time if I can't get the family on board).

Thanks for the interest...

One of my twins (W) is a candidate for VBS based on the rudimentary knowledge I have at the moment. She investigated it. I investigated it. She investigated it further after I asked her to do so.

W does not want to try VBS and will go into a night time bending brace instead in order to hopefully avoid surgery. I understand her reasons. My husband agrees with her.

There are valid reasons to not want to try VBS at this early stage although it does look promising. Your daughter and wife are not being irrational.

Her identical twin (S) will have surgery at the end of March. Unfortunately, the fact that S progressed so fast and so far makes the likelihood of the brace preventing surgery for W is very low.

S will be getting posterior spinal fusion in a portion of her back that will not affect future bending. I am immensely grateful to the doctors who perfected it that there is a successful surgical repair for this condition. It could be a lot worse.

Good luck with your daughter. :)

Pooka1
02-22-2008, 04:54 PM
For Pooka1:

Who is the VET your horse goes to?

I'll PM you.

There are plenty of folks who do chiro on horses. I have a low tolerance for paranormal stuff like chiro so I wanted to at least have a vet do it. But as I stated before, just because he calls it chiro doesn't mean there is a valid basis to do so. I mean he is clearly removing a pain response and, though I told him about the million dollar prize, he hasn't tried to claim it as far as I know. That should tell us something. I know what it tells me. ;)

mariaf
02-22-2008, 04:57 PM
There are valid reasons to not want to try VBS at this early stage although it does look promising. Your daughter and wife are not being irrational.

Her identical twin (S) will have surgery at the end of March. Unfortunately, the fact that S progressed so fast and so far makes the likelihood of the brace preventing surgery for W is very low.



Of course, the decision to have VBS or ANY surgery is a personal one.

However, what you said about "the likelihood of bracing preventing fusion for W being very low" is precisely the reason many parents (and patients) DO opt for VBS - to try to avoid fusion - so far the results have been very, very good in that respect.

Just food for thought.

Syd'sDad
02-23-2008, 09:33 AM
It sounds like there is denial, misinformation and fear gripping your daughter and wife. We've all been there to one degree or another.
Possibly, but I'm not so sure. My wife has done a fair bit of research on the subject (albeit, not as much as I) and wants to give more "traditional" solutions a chance first. As for my daughter, I think she wants to just be a teenager at this point and whether it be better or worse, surgery would interrupt her immediate "normal" teenage life. She has no desire to go to spinekids or the like (I've tried). The response I get indicates that she wishes not to dwell on the condition or become consumed with it.

Pooka1 says it best, the decision for surgery is a personal one. We each must walk our own path, right or wrong and live with the consequences of that decision. Again, where did I put that crystal ball.

Pooka1
02-23-2008, 06:26 PM
Possibly, but I'm not so sure. My wife has done a fair bit of research on the subject (albeit, not as much as I) and wants to give more "traditional" solutions a chance first. As for my daughter, I think she wants to just be a teenager at this point and whether it be better or worse, surgery would interrupt her immediate "normal" teenage life. She has no desire to go to spinekids or the like (I've tried). The response I get indicates that she wishes not to dwell on the condition or become consumed with it.

Yes. Once my kids did their research and we discussed it, they sort of didn't want to discuss it after a point. It's a large burden for two 13 y.o.s to have to deal with when they have so much else going on in their life. I think S is the lucky one because her "experience" with scoliosis will be relatively short. That is, the time between diagnosis and coming off the last restriction (no gym) is on the order of 15 months and she will never have to wear a brace either before or after surgery. Of course not considering no gym, she will hopefully be almost back to normal just a few months after the surgery.

W is going to be in the night time bending brace for maybe two years and still has an 80% chance of needing surgery. That's a raw deal in my opinion. So raw that if it were me, I would forgo the brace and just have the surgery if needed. She has the same curve as S and is not expected to have the fusion affect bending much at all. When you consider that the VBS is surgery also and there is no guarantee she wouldn't also need spinal fusion, that's just more than I can bear, I don't know about her. If we can keep it to one brace and possibly one surgery within a few year period, I think that's about as good as it gets.

A major consideration here is to stay as normal as possible. If we had to fly for pre-surgery, surgery, and post-surgery appointments, plus add the recovery period, she would be missing a ton of school, more than S will miss with the spinal fusion here in town. S will have a tutor who will not only have her caught up with what she missed but hopefully have her ahead when she returns. I want her to have some consolation for missing so much school.

Pooka1 says it best, the decision for surgery is a personal one. We each must walk our own path, right or wrong and live with the consequences of that decision. Again, where did I put that crystal ball.

I think you are a very good Daddy based on what you have written here. I'm confident we will all make the correct decision. We can only do our best and that includes not beating ourselves up despite having done our best. :)


(text added so post will post.)

Syd'sDad
02-23-2008, 09:50 PM
Well said Pooka1! And thanks for the kind words... :)

I've reached out to a local Rolfer to gather some information on that process. I'll report what she says.

Snoopy
02-24-2008, 08:44 AM
Syd's Dad,

My heart goes out to you. For the most part, we cruise along raising our children without questioning our decisions, and BAM! your child is diagnosed with Scoliosis! Until this time, all we know about Scoliosis is that at some point in our teen years, the girls were pulled aside in gym class and the nurse looked at your back. We were told they were looking for "curvature of the spine." Right?

My daughter was diagnosed at her 12 y.o. check up with a 36* curve. Already very close to that magical 40* when some doctors do surgery. From day one, I told Jamie that this was her Scoliosis but her father and I would help her through everything. I felt is was VERY important to empower her by allowing her to be involved in every decision especially since she would be the one wearing the brace or going through surgery.

Like you, I did a ton of research on my own before we saw the first of five (yes, five) orthopedic doctors. The first doc was much like your experience with an ortho. This doctor treated Jamie like she was a 2 y.o.! He never looked her in the eye. Never talked to her. He only had contact with her when he was examining her. He prescribed a Milwaukee brace. Let's just say, it was horrible. We contacted the doctor and he had NO sympathy what so ever. he said wear it and basically that was it.

We switched to a female doctor at the same hospital thinking she would be more understandable to the needs of a teenager. Well, let's just say she wasn't the doctor for us either.

Doctor #3, was AWESOME, but truthful. He was an adult orthopedic surgeon. He told us he was able to treat Jamie while she was braced, but wouldn't be able to do her surgery if she got to the point. We thanked him for his honesty and moved on.

We went to Dr. Betz at the Shriner's in Philly. We loved him! After one meeting, we started the process of scheduling surgery with the intention of having Dr. Betz do the surgery if the fifth doctor wasn't the one for us. The fifth doc was at our local children's hospital where there first two opinions were.

Well, we walked into the appointment with the fifth doctor and were floored! He walked in and introduced himself to Jamie first, then me. He looked at her chart and asked why we were here? I guess he sensed our confussion and went on to explain that we were in excellent hands with Dr. Betz, so why were we there to see him? Wow! What a humble guy! See, this doctor came as highly recommended as Dr. Betz. We told him our reasons for being there and he proceeded to sit down and talk with Jamie (his back to me). Once he was done examining Jamie and talking to her, he turned to me and asked if there was anything on my mind that wasn't already discussed.

Since this is getting so long, I won't go on any further. I'll just say that Dr. Lee Segal, our fifth opinion, was the one who ended up doing Jamie's surgery. Her Scoliosis went from 36* at diagnosis to 46* a year later when she had surgery. Yes, it was a long journey finding the right doctor, but it was well worth the search. Not every ortho. is uncaring or detached. There a few wonderful doctors who life is dedicated to our kids. Keep looking and you'll not only find the right doctor for your family, but you'll also find the "right" answer for your daughter.

Sorry for the long post.

Mary Lou

Syd'sDad
02-24-2008, 11:03 AM
Sorry for the long post.
No need to apologize Mary Lou! Thanks for taking the time and effort to share your experiences, it is greatly appreciated!

Your post reinforces to all of us the need to shop around, that each individual is different and that one doctor does not fit all!

Take Care,

Joe

mariaf
02-24-2008, 12:19 PM
Pooka1 wrote:

"When you consider that the VBS is surgery also and there is no guarantee she wouldn't also need spinal fusion, that's just more than I can bear, I don't know about her. If we can keep it to one brace and possibly one surgery within a few year period, I think that's about as good as it gets."

I just wanted to make a comment since I'm very familiar with how candidates are chosen for VBS, in case it might be useful to another parent as well.

Yes, what you say is true. There are no guarantees in life.

However, since the inception of VBS 6 or so years ago, the doctors have learned who is and isn't likely to have success with it.

For example if a child comes in with, say a curve in the upper 20's or low 30's, has a good amount of growth left AND a lot of flexibility in the spine (say his or her spine bends practically straight on bending x-ray), then VBS will almost certainly work for them. Of course, with any form of treatment there is no guarantee, but this is as close to one as you can get. These kids are often referred to by the doctors as "ideal candidates".

Given the fact that VBS is an 'easier' surgery than fusion, much less invasive, shorter recovery, no restrictions at all after the first month or so, those are odds that a lot of parents consider too good to pass up.

Of course, I respect everyone's personal decision. I just wanted to explain why the VBS option is so attractive to a lot of parents whose kids are considered ideal candidates - it gives them an EXCELLENT chance of avoiding fusion.

Good luck to all these kids!

txmarinemom
02-24-2008, 01:28 PM
Pooka and Syd'sDad, I am truly saddened by the choices you both face, and thankful every day I was affected by this; not one of my children. I feel for you both.

I've been following this thread, and since the questions/opinions are on the table, there are a few things I'd like to point out as gently as possible as there are others (reading this ... perhaps just not posting) who are, IMHO, missing all the pieces of the puzzle.

In the end, of course, you have to do what you feel is right. I just can't wrap my mind around the logic of some of the statements thus far ...

There IS no crystal ball, but there IS empirical data on certain treatments, curve progression, and occasionally placing more value on what is MOST likely to benefit your child vs. "empowering" a 13 year old to decide what's best for them in the long run. They simply do NOT have the mental accuity/rationale/long-term vision (no matter how intelligent) to determine any form of treatment efficacy as it applies to their "normal teen life".

Syd'sDad, I'm really confused you think "possibly" your wife and daughter are in denial:


Possibly, but I'm not so sure. My wife has done a fair bit of research on the subject (albeit, not as much as I) and wants to give more "traditional" solutions a chance first. As for my daughter, I think she wants to just be a teenager at this point and whether it be better or worse, surgery would interrupt her immediate "normal" teenage life. She has no desire to go to spinekids or the like (I've tried). The response I get indicates that she wishes not to dwell on the condition or become consumed with it.

Since when is chiropractic considered "traditional" treatment for scoliosis? As Karen - and others - have pointed out, there is not *one single study* that demonstrates long term (barely even short term) positive effects from chiropractic. I certainly wouldn't consider that a "traditional" solution. A "solution" by it's very definition *works*. Even as a "supplemental treatment" to bracing, yoga shows more positive results than chiropractic. I saw you mentioned Rolfing, which applies more active principles of creating/maintaining flexibility vs. passive manipulation (chiro), and IMHO, is a much better "supplement".

I'm entirely sure your daughter would rather NOT think about scoliosis, or how ANY treatment would affect her "normal" teenage life. I'm sure none of us did, but it's reality. Denial, and rufusal to learn *anything* about it won't make it go away - or none of us would have EVER required treatment.


... To compound the issue, My daughter is a good candidate for VBS (the way I'd like to go) but my wife and Sydney will have no part of it. It is for that reason that I began to seek local alternatives to SUPPLEMENT bracing.

I too believe that chiro cannot permanently correct curves (33L, 30T) but perhaps it can improve comfort and joint flexibility. Where did I put that crystal ball??????


I wish I could get my wife on board with VBS, one problem here is the narrow window we have available and at this point we have no idea whether the curves are progressing or not. My daughter was just diagnosed on 01/14/08, so we have only established a baseline at this point. I'd hate to jump right at VBS if the curves are stable...

I've allowed the chiro to do two gentle adjustments on my daughter during our initial consultations and I will say that my daughter felt much better afterward and wants to return, thus complicating the decision. I'm very analytical about things and don't necessarily believe in chiropractic; although I will say that chiro is the only thing that helped my sciatica from an injury in my early 30's.

Again, active stretching (yoga, swimming, pilates) can equally decrease pain/increase flexibility (for free - and with the same results).

I realize you don't yet know how her curve is - or isn't - moving, but do you realize how likely she IS to move at 33L/30T - with a Risser of 0/no menarche? She has yet to hit the window when most curves move ... *quickly*.

I sincerely hope she doesn't move, but how long do you wait if it does show movement? And will you have enough time to react?

Does your wife realize the high success rate of VBS is largely due to thorough evaluation prior to selection of candidates? Does she understand what exactly the remaining options are if this window is missed? Yes, VBS is surgery (just like fusion) but the two are as different as a tonsillectomy and open heart surgery.

(If you *truly* believe fusion and vertebral stapling are equivalent simply because they're both surgeries, view my fusion photos (http://www.box.net/shared/static/o2lztqhc8g.ppt). Caution: The photos are quite graphic, but nothing else seems to be getting through. Fusion and VBS are *very* different animals, and I'd have given *anything* to have the *option* of VBS. I guarantee you if it HAD been an option, my parents wouldn't have asked for my input given the choice of the two.)


One of my twins (W) is a candidate for VBS based on the rudimentary knowledge I have at the moment. She investigated it. I investigated it. She investigated it further after I asked her to do so.

W does not want to try VBS and will go into a night time bending brace instead in order to hopefully avoid surgery. I understand her reasons. My husband agrees with her.

There are valid reasons to not want to try VBS at this early stage although it does look promising. Your daughter and wife are not being irrational.

Her identical twin (S) will have surgery at the end of March. Unfortunately, the fact that S progressed so fast and so far makes the likelihood of the brace preventing surgery for W is very low.


W is going to be in the night time bending brace for maybe two years and still has an 80% chance of needing surgery. That's a raw deal in my opinion. So raw that if it were me, I would forgo the brace and just have the surgery if needed. She has the same curve as S and is not expected to have the fusion affect bending much at all. When you consider that the VBS is surgery also and there is no guarantee she wouldn't also need spinal fusion, that's just more than I can bear, I don't know about her. If we can keep it to one brace and possibly one surgery within a few year period, I think that's about as good as it gets.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but *again* a CHILD is choosing treatment. While you say you "understand" her reasons, you also estimate her chances of fusion surgery AFTER bracing at 80%. Who exactly is the parent?

Could you please elaborate on your "valid reasons" to dismiss VBS (which, BTW, is *far* beyond "early stage") now and wait on almost certain fusion? I assure you, fusion is a MUCH more serious/painful surgery, with a MUCH longer recovery.

Are you aware that VBS has => an 80% success rate since inception? Recent numbers have greatly increased since they have better data upon which to rely as predictors for success in candidates. Of the =< 20% not necessarily considered VBS "successes" (bear in mind, this is *since inception*), this does NOT mean those kids went on to have fusion. "Not a success" also includes cases of 5-10 progression after stapling; a hell of a lot better overall than progression during or after bracing (of ANY type). It could simply mean (for example) someone who was stapled at 28 is now 36

As far as "S", yes, thoracic fusion (I was just fused 18 days ago from T4-L1) has little effect on bending, and yes, it could certainly be worse.

I simply don't understand why waiting for "W" to get worse is the better option. I'm not sure why you feel fusion is such a strong possibility after stapling when the data simply does not indicate such.

Regardless of what you decide, best of luck to both of you and your girls.

Regards,
Pam

Pooka1
02-24-2008, 02:15 PM
txmarinemom wrote:

Could you please elaborate on your "valid reasons" to dismiss VBS (which, BTW, is *far* beyond "early stage") now and wait on almost certain fusion? I assure you, fusion is a MUCH more serious/painful surgery, with a MUCH longer recovery.

For the spinal fusion, I was told S would be out of school for 3 weeks. I think that is after she comes home from the hospital. So she will be out of school about 4 weeks.

What is the time in the hospital and time home for VBS?

We live in Raleigh and would have to fly to Philly or somewhere to have the VBS. When you consider all the travel time, it is not clear if W will miss more school than S if we do VBS.

Does VBS address rib rotation?

ETA: The long term on modern spinal fusion is much more defined than it is for VBS. That is a big consideration.

ETA: I read a testimonial about a kid who had the spinal fusion surgery and had an epidural in place for the first few days. She said she had NO pain. Now I don't know how long one can have an epidural in place and I don't know if she was walking with one. I was all set for my medical-miracle medicated birth but had a natural birth foist upon me when I progressed too far for the epidural. I was not prepared and I must say what should have been the best experience of my life did not turn out to be so.

Reading the testimonials for the kids versus adults, I note it is far worse in all regards for adults. That's not to say it is easy for kids but my sense is that this is getting better and better, right down to the plastic surgery wound closure. Not that that is any kind of consideration but it a sign they they continue to perfect this surgery.

Syd'sDad
02-24-2008, 04:16 PM
Pooka and Syd'sDad, I am truly saddened by the choices you both face, and thankful every day I was affected by this; not one of my children. I feel for you both.

I've been following this thread, and since the questions/opinions are on the table, there are a few things I'd like to point out as gently as possible as there are others (reading this ... perhaps just not posting) who are, IMHO, missing all the pieces of the puzzle.

In the end, of course, you have to do what you feel is right. I just can't wrap my mind around the logic of some of the statements thus far ...

There IS no crystal ball, but there IS empirical data on certain treatments, curve progression, and occasionally placing more value on what is MOST likely to benefit your child vs. "empowering" a 13 year old to decide what's best for them in the long run. They simply do NOT have the mental accuity/rationale/long-term vision (no matter how intelligent) to determine any form of treatment efficacy as it applies to their "normal teen life".

I am not giving into the whims of a 13 year old nor have I empowered her to make any of her own treatment decisions. I also fully understand the limits of her reasoning /rationale at this age. However, when dealing with someone of this age, there is an immense amount of tact necessary when approaching certain subjects. You, as a mother, must certainly understand that there is no reasoning with a teenager and the "because I said so" approach is no way (in my opinion) to proceed here. I and her mother, will make the decision that we believe to be in her best interest. But understand this, it is my daughter that will have to physically live with the decisions we make. I am not willing to make ANY decision that has ANY potential for harm, in 5 weeks time.


Syd'sDad, I'm really confused you think "possibly" your wife and daughter are in denial:


Since when is chiropractic considered "traditional" treatment for scoliosis? As Karen - and others - have pointed out, there is not *one single study* that demonstrates long term (barely even short term) positive effects from chiropractic. I certainly wouldn't consider that a "traditional" solution. A "solution" by it's very definition *works*. Even as a "supplemental treatment" to bracing, yoga shows more positive results than chiropractic. I saw you mentioned Rolfing, which applies more active principles of creating/maintaining flexibility vs. passive manipulation (chiro), and IMHO, is a much better "supplement".

Perhaps "traditional" was a poor choice of term, non-invasive would have been a better choice. And yes, by engaging in these discussions, I would have to agree that there are better alternatives than chiropractic.


I'm entirely sure your daughter would rather NOT think about scoliosis, or how ANY treatment would affect her "normal" teenage life. I'm sure none of us did, but it's reality. Denial, and refusal to learn *anything* about it won't make it go away - or none of us would have EVER required treatment.

I never said she refused to learn "anything" or that I was going to just drop the subject and hope the scoli goes away. I was simply relaying the impression I get from a teen that has been blitzed by a flurry change. I hardly think that failure to jump onto a website or into literature about the condition signal denial on her part or that of my wife. Also understand that the opinions on these sites are like -------- and everybody has one. While I reach out and solicit comment, I will not allow public opinion to dictate policy. If surgery was such a clear and easy choice, why have so many waited so long?



I realize you don't yet know how her curve is - or isn't - moving, but do you realize how likely she IS to move at 33L/30T - with a Risser of 0/no menarche? She has yet to hit the window when most curves move ... *quickly*.

Yes, I most certainly do....


I sincerely hope she doesn't move, but how long do you wait if it does show movement? And will you have enough time to react?

Lord only knows... That is why 5 weeks after diagnosis, I'm expending so much time an effort to educate myself and wife in an effort to reach a viable decision in minimal time.


Does your wife realize the high success rate of VBS is largely due to thorough evaluation prior to selection of candidates? Does she understand what exactly the remaining options are if this window is missed? Yes, VBS is surgery (just like fusion) but the two are as different as a tonsillectomy and open heart surgery.

(If you *truly* believe fusion and vertebral stapling are equivalent simply because they're both surgeries, view my fusion photos (http://www.box.net/shared/static/o2lztqhc8g.ppt). Caution: The photos are quite graphic, but nothing else seems to be getting through. Fusion and VBS are *very* different animals, and I'd have given *anything* to have the *option* of VBS. I guarantee you if it HAD been an option, my parents wouldn't have asked for my input given the choice of the two.)

No, I'm sure she does not but I assure you that she personally knows the pain and debilitation that can happen when the best intended surgery goes wrong....There have been and will continue to be, less than perfect outcomes with surgery and that includes VBS; the chances may be small but they are there none-the-less.



I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but *again* a CHILD is choosing treatment. While you say you "understand" her reasons, you also estimate her chances of fusion surgery AFTER bracing at 80%. Who exactly is the parent?

No offense taken but once again, my daughter is not dictating what direction the treatment is taking and if you read my previous statements, I have not inferred that she was.


Could you please elaborate on your "valid reasons" to dismiss VBS (which, BTW, is *far* beyond "early stage") now and wait on almost certain fusion? I assure you, fusion is a MUCH more serious/painful surgery, with a MUCH longer recovery.

I have not dismissed VBS, I simply stated
I backed off and have not sent them ( I didn't want to waste her time if I can't get the family on board).
Backed off being the operative term, while I gather the pertinent data to present VBS as the best option LONG TERM. What kind of husband or father would I be I exerted my will in an authoritarian manner? What would your comment here be if I came on and stated: "My wife and daughter don't want it but I'm making them go along with VBS?

Pam, the problem with written communication and message boards is that it is very difficult to convey tone unless you are a truly gifted writer. My replies to your comments above may sound terse but I assure you they are not. I truly appreciate what you and many others with experience have to say. To compound matters, the comments and questions posed here are a brief snapshot into the thoughts of and individual at that moment and could never reveal the entire scope of what is playing out in their daily life. Tomorrow, films are on the way to Philly and I will continue to educate both my wife and daughter as I become more informed.

Joe

txmarinemom
02-24-2008, 04:52 PM
I'm going to answer each response separately from Pooka and Syd'sDad so it's more clear. As much as I tried to keep the questions separate via the "quote" feature, I fear I only confused things.

I honestly, in NO way, meant to critique either of your parenting skills. My main reason for posting was to help ensure the data you had was truly factual - and would help in making the right choice for your girls.

Yes, I'm a parent, but I don't have the monster either of you do staring me down. Beyond imagining the sheer terror you must feel, I can't say I know what you're going through. I can only hope I'd display the courage to sit through the crash course initiation into a club which I certainly didn't apply :(.

Now let me see if I can answer both your questions in a clear manner ...

Regards,
Pam

Pooka1
02-24-2008, 05:52 PM
Syd'sDad,

The source of each quote was preserved in the post to which you responded. In that case, the first few were your quotes and the last few were my quotes.

I hope that clears up some confusion. :)

Pooka1
02-24-2008, 05:53 PM
I honestly, in NO way, meant to critique either of your parenting skills. My main reason for posting was to help ensure the data you had was truly factual - and would help in making the right choice for your girls.

Yes I knew that. I appreciate it.

Syd'sDad
02-24-2008, 06:38 PM
Syd'sDad,

The source of each quote was preserved in the post to which you responded. In that case, the first few were your quotes and the last few were my quotes.

I hope that clears up some confusion. :)

Yes I assumed that. I tried to respond to those that applied to me.

Karen Ocker
02-24-2008, 07:55 PM
Joe:

All of us(patients) here have walked the scoliosis walk. Our comments are not meant to be disrespectful or overly forceful. We are trying to help others avoid the mistakes we made, money and pain we wasted, and share what worked/didn't work for us. Sometimes we wish people would "get the picture" sooner and prevent these pitfalls.

When I was 13(1956) when scoliosis surgery was done as a last resort and involved a year in casts and not walking, our scoliosis surgeon wanted me to have the surgery in Spring. My curves had accelerated at an alarming rate and immediate treatment was recommended. My parents, who had each suffered the loss of a parent within 30 days of each other, just couldn't face the prospect if putting a "healthy" child into the hospital. My mom wanted me to "have a summer". It was the worse summer of my life. I became too deformed in that short time to enjoy any teenage experiences, I was in terrible pain and actually looked forward to having the surgery in Sept. The correction at that time was modest-because we waited too long- and lasted me over 40 pain free productive years. At 60 I had a successful revision(5 years ago) and I am now pain free and employed in the profession I love.

This is where we are coming from.

txmarinemom
02-24-2008, 08:31 PM
Pooka and Syd'sDad,

Sorry for my delay in the responses I promised to write. My walking buddy got off work early, and we did our practice for the 5K on March 9th.

Easily did 18 blocks tonight - woo-hoooooo! ;-) Could've done more, but trying to add at a prudent pace (just enough where I'm increasing, and no pain afterwards).

There's such a fine line between rehab and damage. Quite a difficult one for me to tow.

And, yes, for anyone who's wondering, Hanson knows I'm doing this. I'll be pinching him for pennies towards the cause tomorrow around 1:46 p.m. (3 week followup is at 1:45 ;-).

I can't wait to see my xrays, and you know I'll be posting them as soon as I get home!

Off to pen responses now, and Pooka/Syd'sDad, thank you for understanding the intent of my initial post. It certainly wasn't meant as combative or an attack; quite to the contrary.

Karen's post had me nodding my head, leaking tears. The summary she wrote is so true ... I think most of us who pipe up from the "other side" sincerely hope our experiences can have some benefit to those who follow.

Please bear that in mind if what I write is misconstrued: I *don't* know your specific circumstances, I only know we fight the same enemy. I don't mean to sound judgemental or all-knowing (I actually laughed out loud at that because I'm still trying to learn how to get my tennies on in < 10 min and get the apples I REALLY want out of the bottom crisper drawer. I'm rather like a monkey in training at the moment!).

I certainly don't intend to make your journey more difficult - or most of all, cause additional stress or hurt.

Regards,
Pam

mariaf
02-24-2008, 08:42 PM
For the spinal fusion, I was told S would be out of school for 3 weeks. I think that is after she comes home from the hospital. So she will be out of school about 4 weeks.

What is the time in the hospital and time home for VBS?

We live in Raleigh and would have to fly to Philly or somewhere to have the VBS. When you consider all the travel time, it is not clear if W will miss more school than S if we do VBS.

Does VBS address rib rotation?

ETA: The long term on modern spinal fusion is much more defined than it is for VBS. That is a big consideration.

ETA: I read a testimonial about a kid who had the spinal fusion surgery and had an epidural in place for the first few days. She said she had NO pain. Now I don't know how long one can have an epidural in place and I don't know if she was walking with one.

Hi again,

I just wanted to address a few points you raised as best I can. First, from talking to dozens of families I think a return to school, full time, 3 or 4 weeks after fusion may be within the range of possibility, but DEFINITELY on the early side. In fact I can't recall anyone I've known whose child has gone back full time that quickly. (Of course, that's not to say it NEVER happens.) I've found some doctors look at the glass half full and other half empty. Perhaps he gave you the "half full" answer. The norm seems to be 6-7 weeks for going back full time after fusion (not a scientific study, but what I have found to be the average out of the parents I've spoken to and stories I've followed on this forum and others). Don't forget most parents are very cautious - they worry about transportation, their kids getting bumped in crowded halls, etc. I find that most would rather keep their kids home 6-7 weeks before sending them to school for full days.

There is also a range for VBS with regard to returning to school. One child went back after a week (not the norm). The average seems to be a couple of weeks. Every child is different but I can tell you it's a shorter recovery in terms of getting back to "normal" (stamina, activities, restrictions, etc.) Within about 2-3 weeks my son seemed 100% like his old self. His surgery was in March and by June he was at a pool party jumping in with all the other kids, allowed to do anything (all restrictions were actually lifted at his 2 month checkup).

To answer your next question - Yes VBS DOES address rotation. They "unrotate" the spine in the OR during the VBS procedure. I saw on x-ray the difference in my son's rotation when we compared pre-op and current x-rays.

As far as the kid you read about who had no pain after fusion, I'd say that's a RARITY at best (with any surgery for that matter). Even after VBS there will be some pain and discomfort, as there was with my two c-sections. It's surgery. But I guess the truth is, knowing what I know, fusion scares me, in terms of what the kids (and adults) go through those first days and weeks. Fusion certainly has its place and we are lucky we live in an age where it is available, but if it were my child I'd try to avoid it if at all possible.

Good luck.

Syd'sDad
02-24-2008, 09:06 PM
Joe:

All of us(patients) here have walked the scoliosis walk. Our comments are not meant to be disrespectful or overly forceful. We are trying to help others avoid the mistakes we made, money and pain we wasted, and share what worked/didn't work for us. Sometimes we wish people would "get the picture" sooner and prevent these pitfalls.

When I was 13(1956) when scoliosis surgery was done as a last resort and involved a year in casts and not walking, our scoliosis surgeon wanted me to have the surgery in Spring. My curves had accelerated at an alarming rate and immediate treatment was recommended. My parents, who had each suffered the loss of a parent within 30 days of each other, just couldn't face the prospect if putting a "healthy" child into the hospital. My mom wanted me to "have a summer". It was the worse summer of my life. I became too deformed in that short time to enjoy any teenage experiences, I was in terrible pain and actually looked forward to having the surgery in Sept. The correction at that time was modest-because we waited too long- and lasted me over 40 pain free productive years. At 60 I had a successful revision(5 years ago) and I am now pain free and employed in the profession I love.

This is where we are coming from.
Karen,

I completely understand where you and Pam are coming from and truly respect and appreciate your input. Please forgive me if I come across other than grateful. It is the prospect of these exchanges that have brought me here.
I think you put it best here:

All of us(patients) here have walked the scoliosis walk. Our comments are not meant to be disrespectful or overly forceful. We are trying to help others avoid the mistakes we made, money and pain we wasted, and share what worked/didn't work for us. Sometimes we wish people would "get the picture" sooner and prevent these pitfalls.
I have to admit that after reading many of your posts, I came away with the impression that you were a bit overbearing when stating what you felt was the right path. As I said to Pam earlier, tone is hard to covey in this medium, so sometimes we must dig deeper and ask more probing questions to understand the intent behind the advice. That being said, I can relate to your dilemma; your advice is from the 'been there, done that" side of the fence and it must get awfully frustrating when we "newbies" show up and enter into the same pitfalls you have seen time and again. In my line of work, I operate in a supervisory/instructional capacity and when dealing with a "newbie" I sometimes get frustrated when they can't see things that, to me, are perfectly obvious. I often have to take a step back and remember where I cam from and put myself in their shoes. Experience counts for so much and that is what I value here. I may not always agree with what is said or want to hear it , for that matter (for fear it might be the truth) but most often, it needs to be said. Tough love. perhaps? Sometimes a little push is what we need.

Don't stop doing what you do here, just understand that sometimes we are a bit dense and often indignant..

Respectfully,

Joe

txmarinemom
02-24-2008, 10:16 PM
For the spinal fusion, I was told S would be out of school for 3 weeks. I think that is after she comes home from the hospital. So she will be out of school about 4 weeks.

Just to add to what Mariaf wrote, yes, 3 weeks is a pretty generous estimate for return to school. It happens ... but don't forget, if she's out for a longer period, you most likely have the option of homebound so S doesn't fall behind.

Normal hospital stay (for adults or kids) is generally in the range of 5-10 days (sometimes more). I was ready to go at day 3, but due to a previous MRSA infection (years back), I was receiving Vancomycin via IV. The drug is quite caustic, and infiltrated 3 separate IV's. This caused a sudden disconnect from Dilaudid via PCA, and once the pain got out of control, they had a tough time reigning it in via oral meds. Since I obviously had no pressing engagements - and didn't want to work it out at home with the doctor
on call - I stayed through the weekend (a total of 6 days).

I was making phone calls the day of surgery when I woke up, but I've been told this isn't typical.


What is the time in the hospital and time home for VBS? (answered by mariaf)


We live in Raleigh and would have to fly to Philly or somewhere to have the VBS. When you consider all the travel time, it is not clear if W will miss more school than S if we do VBS.

I can assure you W will FEEL like returning to school MUCH sooner if you elect VBS vs. fusion. Fusion surgery is SO much more invasive than VBS. I can't stress that enough. Aside from MY recent surgery photos, there's a video on youtube of a pediatric posterior fusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhV6N2At0Bg). You can't *possibly* watch it - and watch them cranking the torso around by the rods - and compare it in *any* way to VBS.


Does VBS address rib rotation? (answered by mariaf)


ETA: The long term on modern spinal fusion is much more defined than it is for VBS. That is a big consideration.

I still don't get the impression you understand that, yes, while fusion has come leaps and bounds over the years, it's no guarantee of a *cure*. Sure, it's been around longer, but it's far from perfect science. Among the monkeywrenches that can be tossed in after fusion are:

- Crankshafting (one side of the spine continues to grow and curve)
- Decompensation (areas above and below the fusion continue to curve)
- Plain old hardware failure (pedicle screw pull out and rod breakage)
- Failure to fuse ... a good percentage DO, but not all fusions "take"

Given the choice between fusion and VBS, fusion has the posssibility of MANY more complications. THAT is a BIGGER consideration.


ETA: I read a testimonial about a kid who had the spinal fusion surgery and had an epidural in place for the first few days. She said she had NO pain. Now I don't know how long one can have an epidural in place and I don't know if she was walking with one. I was all set for my medical-miracle medicated birth but had a natural birth foist upon me when I progressed too far for the epidural. I was not prepared and I must say what should have been the best experience of my life did not turn out to be so.

I'm not sure where you read this, but epidurals aren't at all normal after fusion surgery. For one thing, it would preclude getting the patient up and walking (they had me up the next morning after my fusion) - and that IS the goal. Walking greatly facilitates recovery: I can't imagine them using one at all, much less leaving it in.

BTW, I had the same birth experience with my first kiddo ... 3-8cm in 15 minutes, 2 hour labor ... bye-bye epidural. Had the 2nd kid induced specifically so I could have an epidural ... slowed her down to a whopping 3 hours. My vocabulary was FAR less creative.


Reading the testimonials for the kids versus adults, I note it is far worse in all regards for adults. That's not to say it is easy for kids but my sense is that this is getting better and better, right down to the plastic surgery wound closure. Not that that is any kind of consideration but it a sign they they continue to perfect this surgery.

I wouldn't necessarily agree it's worse for all adults in all cases (it depends on several factors - fitness level prior to surgery being VERY high on the list), but I still don't sense you understand how serious fusion IS compared to VBS.

By waiting for fusion (erroneously assumed as perfect science) when VBS is viable (if it turns out she's truly a candidate) you're opening her up to a whole plethora of risks SOLELY associated with fusion.

Oh, and BTW, that "plastic surgery wound closure" can still shift, widen, go keloid, etc. There are many on here who STARTED OUT with GREAT scars (that's just how scars go sometimes).

Regards,
Pam

Pooka1
02-24-2008, 10:29 PM
I can assure you W will FEEL like returning to school MUCH sooner if you elect VBS vs. fusion. Fusion surgery is SO much more invasive than VBS. I can't stress that enough.


But you didn't address all the travel. It would be an easier choice if we lived in Philly or some place they do VBS.

It is not abundantly clear to me that, when you factor all that in, W won't miss MORE school than S if she does VBS.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you had surgery as an adult, yes? What is your experience base with kids with one curve? Also, how do you know about the range of actual experiences with VBS?

And last, I'll point out the issue of the known unknowns for spinal fusion (some of which you mentioned) versus the unknown unknowns for VBS. It is not obvious that such types of things couldn't or wouldn't happen down the road with VBS.

txmarinemom
02-24-2008, 11:04 PM
But you didn't address all the travel. It would be an easier choice if we lived in Philly or some place they do VBS.

Shriners Philly is NOT the only place that performs VBS. http://www.vertebralstapling.com/Physician_List.html


It is not abundantly clear to me that, when you factor all that in, W will miss MORE school than S if she does VBS..

I'm trying to tell you a child that has fusion vs. VBS will be in recovery MUCH longer. If homebound school support is not an issue, what exactly IS the issue?


Correct me if I'm wrong but you had surgery as an adult, yes? What is your experience base with kids with one curve? Also, how do you know about the range of actual experiences with VBS?.


I had surgery 19 days ago.

My experience on kids with one curve is I WAS one, diagnosed at age 10. I didn't just develop scoli at 39. I lived with the pain for 30 years until I couldn't take it anymore.

My knowledge of VBS (among other treatments) has been gained through the many parents on the VBS list I've come to know, PubMed research, and seeking out any published VBS/other treatment data on which I can get my hands. Like it or not, my grandchildren (as are yours) are far more likely to develop scoliosis, and I make a conscious efforts to stay up to date on factual data.

How has your knowledge of treatment methods been gained?


And last, I'll point out the issue of the known unknowns for spinal fusion (some of which you mentioned) versus the unknown unknowns for VBS. It is not obvious that such types of things couldn't or wouldn't happen down the road with VBS.

Again, I think you're under the assumption fusion is a "cure" simply because it's existed longer. VBS has been around long enough for your "unknown unknowns" to have made a cameo appearance.

BTW, check out the #19 VBS patient sometime (stapled 5 years ago). She held to a 2 correction with no ill effects. How new do you believe this technology actually is?

CurvySAT05
02-25-2008, 03:23 AM
Pooka,
Even if you did have to travel to Philly for surgery, it is possible to go in a couple days before surgery and have all the pre-op testing done the day before surgery (they often do this for those who travel in from out of town). Many people fly home a day or two after release from the hospital from regular fusion surgery, so as long as W gets the okay from the docs in Philly, the return trip home should not be a problem either.
She might have to make a couple return trips for follow-ups, but after a period of time you could probably arrange to have x-rays taken locally and send them to Philly to have them checked out, this way you minimize time she misses school and only have to go if they need to see her or something comes up.
Shriners will help pay for travel if money is an issue, and there is a non-profit organization called angel flights that helps transport patients to-from doctors appts, etc. that might be able to take you to/from philly as well.
I would talk to Janet about how much time W would actually need to miss school and how much time would need to be spent in Philly after her surgery if she is a candidate. Ask what follow ups are required and if it is possible to have x-rays sent in lieu of a formal visit at any point, etc.

mariaf
02-25-2008, 07:01 AM
But you didn't address all the travel. It would be an easier choice if we lived in Philly or some place they do VBS.

It is not abundantly clear to me that, when you factor all that in, W won't miss MORE school than S if she does VBS.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you had surgery as an adult, yes? What is your experience base with kids with one curve? Also, how do you know about the range of actual experiences with VBS?

And last, I'll point out the issue of the known unknowns for spinal fusion (some of which you mentioned) versus the unknown unknowns for VBS. It is not obvious that such types of things couldn't or wouldn't happen down the road with VBS.

Pooka,

First, please understand where I am coming from. If it were MY child, I'd jump at the chance for VBS (provided she was a good candidate) vs. fusion. I think if you heard more about VBS, and fusion, from parents and patients alike, you might tend to agree.

Referring to the last line of your post above - and knowing what I know - I'd be MUCH less worried about complications after VBS than if my child was having fusion. Not trying to scare anyone, but there's NO comparison. And even though the vast majority of kids I know who that have had VBS have had smooth recoveries, there are of course some minor complications that can happen post VBS but NOTHING even remotely close to some of the more serious complications that CAN (not saying they will) happen after fusion.
If I was told my child was a good candidate for VBS, it would be a no brainer for me if it meant a good chance to avoid fusion. The two surgeries are just VERY different.

As far as the part about travel/missing school, that would be SECONDARY (if it were my decision) to what procedure was best for my child. I'm NOT saying that you're not putting your child's best interests first - not at all. I just think you are picturing the inconvenience of the travel, etc. as being more than it is. I know families who came from Texas, Louisiana, Nebraska and just recently a family came from South Carolina. They felt it was worth it and none regrets their decision. (As Pam said, NOW there are docs doing VBS at other centers, not just Philly). I don't think travel to Philly would hinder your daughter's return to school. In other words, if she was given the OK to return to school 2-3 weeks post op, you'd be home by then. Usually, if a family is from out of town, and let's say the child gets dischared on day 5, and that falls on a Friday, the doctor may ask that the family stay in town until Monday - and then after seeing the patient on Monday, give the OK to return home, just so they feel sure everything is OK.

If you like, you can find most of these parents I talk about on the site Pam referenced - it's www.vertebralstapling.com

Again, not telling you what you should do, just trying to help.

MATJESNIC
02-25-2008, 12:17 PM
I have no experience with VBS or much knowledge about it. I can only comment on my daughter's experience with spinal fusion. They told us that the recovery is one full year. Yes, she was back at school full time before 6 weeks. But many kids take longer than that. Yes, she goes to school every day and hangs out with her friends on the weekends. But at 5 months post op, she is not allowed to do anything physical other than walk. She can't dance, bike, swim or anything for fear of an accident harming her back. Possibly at 6 months we will find out she is fused and can start moving more. At this point, I still drive her to school and she leaves each class early to avoid being bumped in the halls.

She has two rods and 26 screws permanently in her back. She will never have a normal use of her spine like her peers who didn't have spinal fusion. She will forever have limited motion because her fuse is from T-2-L-3. I have no idea how that will play out when she goes back to her passion--dance.

The week in the hospital was a living hell for all the pain she was in. The following week wasn't much better. At present, she is in no pain.

When you have to do the fusion, you do it. We had no choice. I just wanted to let people know what our specific experience with spinal fusion has been so far.

Pooka1
02-25-2008, 12:57 PM
Shriners Philly is NOT the only place that performs VBS. http://www.vertebralstapling.com/Physician_List.html

Yes but looking at the list, they are all plane rides away. It is one of the few saving graces that money is not a problem. But that said, I'm still unsure if W would miss more school with the VBS plus travel than S will given spinal fusion in town plus what the surgeon told us in re recovery time. Now I know you have a different idea about actual recovery times. I am emailing a series of questions to the surgeon that include some very close questions on the actual range of his pediatric patients with this type of curve and when they ended up back at school full time. I'll report back. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around his blantantly misrepresenting this if he knows it isn't the case.

I'm trying to tell you a child that has fusion vs. VBS will be in recovery MUCH longer. If homebound school support is not an issue, what exactly IS the issue?

S will qualify for a tutor because the time out of school is continuous. W's timeout of school will be broken up with several plane trips to the VBS doctor and would not qualify. Even the trip for the operation alone is too short to qualify for a tutor. Maybe if W had the VBS during summer it wouldn't be an issue. I'm going to write to the woman in Philly to see if W is a candidate and to determine more accurately how much time she will, miss and when considering we live in Raleigh.

I had surgery 19 days ago.

My experience on kids with one curve is I WAS one, diagnosed at age 10. I didn't just develop scoli at 39. I lived with the pain for 30 years until I couldn't take it anymore.

Please pardon my lack of clarity. I meant how many kids with one thoracic curve, (~48 degrees) who underwent modern surgery (i.e., last 2-3 years just to pick a number) at age ~13 are you familiar with?

(snip)

Again, I think you're under the assumption fusion is a "cure" simply because it's existed longer. VBS has been around long enough for your "unknown unknowns" to have made a cameo appearance.

Just curious here... at what point in the past few years did you decide enough data were in on VBS given it has been done for ~7 years?


(text so post will post.)

txmarinemom
02-25-2008, 01:03 PM
I can only comment on my daughter's experience with spinal fusion. They told us that the recovery is one full year.

That sums it up pretty well, Melissa, and I think that's why everyone is so strongly encouraging it ONLY as a last resort.

As I've said, I would have jumped at VBS if that had been an option vs. this.

Out of curiousity, did they use BMP with your daughter's graft? Hanson "spackled" me with allograft/BMP (you can see it in the photos), and from what he estimates, I *should* be fully fused in 3 months.

I hope, I hope ...

Best of luck on your daughter and returning to dance ;-).

Pooka1
02-25-2008, 01:04 PM
Pooka,
Even if you did have to travel to Philly for surgery, it is possible to go in a couple days before surgery and have all the pre-op testing done the day before surgery (they often do this for those who travel in from out of town). Many people fly home a day or two after release from the hospital from regular fusion surgery, so as long as W gets the okay from the docs in Philly, the return trip home should not be a problem either.
She might have to make a couple return trips for follow-ups, but after a period of time you could probably arrange to have x-rays taken locally and send them to Philly to have them checked out, this way you minimize time she misses school and only have to go if they need to see her or something comes up.
Shriners will help pay for travel if money is an issue, and there is a non-profit organization called angel flights that helps transport patients to-from doctors appts, etc. that might be able to take you to/from philly as well.
I would talk to Janet about how much time W would actually need to miss school and how much time would need to be spent in Philly after her surgery if she is a candidate. Ask what follow ups are required and if it is possible to have x-rays sent in lieu of a formal visit at any point, etc.

Thanks for this.

As mentioned previously, it is a consolation that money is not an issue.

I will write to Janet about this.

Until I get further answers from the surgeon and some answers from Janet, I remain skeptical as to the actual time lost from school for kids having to travel for VBS surgery versus spinal fusion surgery in town.

Thanks again.

Pooka1
02-25-2008, 01:10 PM
(snip)
She has two rods and 26 screws permanently in her back. She will never have a normal use of her spine like her peers who didn't have spinal fusion. She will forever have limited motion because her fuse is from T-2-L-3. I have no idea how that will play out when she goes back to her passion--dance.


I would ask you how many curves your daughter had and where except I would have no idea how to interpret that information! So I won't.

From what little I know so far, because S has a single curve where she has it, her bending will not be affected noticeably, or even at all. That is from both the orthopod and the surgeon. And if her bending is not affected, I am assuming nothing will be affected and she can do anything pretty much after the fusion takes. Is that incorrect?

Thanks for your post.

MATJESNIC
02-25-2008, 01:13 PM
Pam,

It is interesting you should ask me that question because that is one question I have been wondering about myself. I really don't remember if that was something I had asked him about among my list of questions. I know I had asked that of the previous surgeon. By the time we had decided on Dr. Dormans at Children's Hospital, I guess I just put my trust in him that he knew what he was doing. I mostly wanted to know about the hardware and the specific fusion. But I have been curious about the bone. I am definitely going to aske him about that next month. I hope to learn that she is fused at our 6-month check-up on March 13th.

Thank you for your well wishes for Nicole and I wish you a successful recovery, as well.

txmarinemom
02-25-2008, 01:18 PM
Pooka,

I'm throwing in the towel.

You seem to already have your mind made up, regardless of whether you have the facts. You don't want to hear the facts from the fused group here OR successful VBS cases.

In answer to your question, I personallly know more 13 year olds with single right thoracic curvatures (FYI, the most common) fused in the last 2-3 years than I care to, and every single time, it breaks my heart. It IS THE ABSOLUTE last resort, and yes, it mostly works, but I just can't fathom blowing off another procedure that causes less pain (mentally and physically) - and is proven to work on carefully selected candidates.

You apparently haven't seen my photos or the youtube link, and what's left afterwards. You certainly couldn't have and truly believe there's little or no pain.

Best of luck to you. I'm sure many parents on here only *wish* they'd had your options.

Pam

Pooka1
02-25-2008, 01:20 PM
TXMARINEMOM wrote:

"I can assure you W will FEEL like returning to school MUCH sooner if you elect VBS vs. fusion. Fusion surgery is SO much more invasive than VBS. I can't stress that enough. Aside from MY recent surgery photos, there's a video on youtube of a pediatric posterior fusion. You can't *possibly* watch it - and watch them cranking the torso around by the rods - and compare it in *any* way to VBS."

I don't know how you meant this but to my eye, you seem to be appealing to "yuck" factor.

I am a scientist though not in a medical field. I watched more than half the video before I had to go to bed last night. I look forward to seeing the rest.

I was impressed with the skill and confidence of the surgeon who was able to conduct a Q&A session while the surgery was going on. Did you catch the very low morbidity statistics he mentioned?

There is NO CORRELATION between how much "cranking" you perceive as a non-surgeon is done and whether or not is not more efficacious in the long term than other surgical options. Either the principle of the surgical approach is sound or it isn't. I just don't see the point of considering any "yuck" factor when discussing this. I had a ruptured ectopic wherein I lost almost half my blood volume into my belly. When they opened me up, it must have been a very high "yuck" factor situation. Still they managed to pull me through.

If you meant something other than "yuck" factor then I missed it.

MATJESNIC
02-25-2008, 01:22 PM
Pooka,

Her main curve was thoracolumbar. If your daughter only has an upper curve in the top part of her back, then there is a good chance she won't notice much difference in flexibility after her fusion because it is the lower back that is doing so much of the bending.

Children are usually cleared to go back to "normalcy" after 6 months to one year. But there are still certain activities that some doctors advise against. Most include activities where there could be a great fall, such as horse back riding. However, some go back to that nonetheless. Some tell their patients that they should never go on a trampoline again. In other words, there will still be a fusion and hardware in your daughter's back no matter where her curve is. Because of that, I think there will always need to be a little more caution exercised where she is concerned. I don't speak from experience. Because we are still new at this. We are only 5 months post-op. Maybe others can shed some more light in this area.

Pooka1
02-25-2008, 01:27 PM
Pooka,

I'm throwing in the towel.

You seem to already have your mind made up, regardless of whether you have the facts. You don't want to hear the facts from the fused group here OR successful VBS cases.


No I have not made up my mind. I mentioned twice I will be emailing Janet at the Philly Shriners.

Maybe the pointedness of my questions made it seem like I made up my mind.

Maybe the fact that what you are relating doesn't seem to agree with what the orthopod and the surgeon tell me.

Who knows.

Thanks for your input. I'll report back what the surgeon says in response to some more pointed questions. :)

Susie*Bee
02-25-2008, 01:41 PM
I would ask you how many curves your daughter had and where except I would have no idea how to interpret that information! So I won't.
Pooka-- I'm not sure what you meant by that, but if you're not sure of the location of the vertebrae, here is a link to view them. You can click on the levels to see-- I thought this diagram was kind of good because it shows a woman's form... So, for instance, if you click on T2 and see where that is, then click on L4 and see where that is, you can see how long my fusion is-- or whatever fusions other people mention. I don't know if this helps you out or not, but thought I'd try... :confused:

http://www.thegoodchiropractor.com/interactive_spine.html

Your daughter must have her curve in the thoracic area, and fusion in that area would cause very little change in flexibility because the ribs already hold that area from flexing much.
__________________

Pooka1
02-25-2008, 01:50 PM
Pooka-- I'm not sure what you meant by that, but if you're not sure of the location of the vertebrae, here is a link to view them. You can click on the levels to see-- I thought this diagram was kind of good because it shows a woman's form... So, for instance, if you click on T2 and see where that is, then click on L4 and see where that is, you can see how long my fusion is-- or whatever fusions other people mention. I don't know if this helps you out or not, but thought I'd try... :confused:

http://www.thegoodchiropractor.com/...tive_spine.html

Your daughter must have her curve in the thoracic area, and fusion in that area would cause very little change in flexibility because the ribs already hold that area from flexing much.
__________________

Thanks for this.

I meant that I don't know what having one curve in location X VERSUS two curves in locations Y and Z VERSUS having three curves in locations A, B, and C translate into in terms of recovery time, time back to school, etc.

I can only tell you that both the orthopod and surgeon say her bending won't be affected.

Thanks to you and everyone for your posts. And best of luck to all patients.

nate03
02-25-2008, 01:51 PM
I can completely relate that the thought of our children needing ANY surgery is scary. I did decide to have my son go the VBS route - I did not feel confident that he would comply with wearing his brace until he was 19 (which is when he likely would have finished growing) and the fusion surgery "scared" me into feeling like we needed to TRY something else.

Every child is different - but several children I know have returned to school 1 Week Post-op - this just happened this month.........He flew to Philly Sunday, had surgery Mon & was back to school the following Monday...........This is NOT the case for most of the kids - my son missed 12 days of school total including Pre-Op. Also, perhaps your daughter could have the surgery over the summer, or the week before or after a school vacation. The doctors are very understanding & just so long as you can find a local ortho to work with them, I am sure your trips back to Philly could be very limited.

I am not trying to talk you into vbs - I completely respect every parent's reasons for choosing various treatment options, I just wanted to share some info from my recent experience.

Here are some links that offer more info about VBS

Boston Children's Hospital:
http://www.childrenshospital.org/clinicalservices/Site1171/mainpageS1171P4sublevel10Flevel17.html

Vertebral Stapling Support Group
http://www.vertebralstapling.com/

A New Video about VBS - Parent's Perspective
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6GmX3K7FIs

I wish you the best of luck with your decision.

-Cara

_________Mom to Nathan Age 11_____________
Diagnosed 24 deg. in July 2007, progressed to 38 deg. by August 2007
Boston Back Brace 8/07 12/07
VBS 12/10/07 Boston Children's Hospital
Dr. Betz/Dr. Hresko
40 Degrees before VBS
25 Degrees After VBS

Pooka1
02-25-2008, 02:03 PM
Cara,

Thanks for those links.

Can I ask if the correction from 40 to 25 is about average for VBS? Apologies if this is in one of the links which I will certainly read.

What is the upper end for long-term stability and very low incidence of progression after growth is finished?

I don't know what the fusion correction for S will be (she's at ~48 now) but I thought it was going to be very near zero. Is that correct for single curves of that magnitude in the thoracic region? (another question for the surgeon but just in case anyone knows.)

Thanks for your post.

Sharon (I'm going to start using my name)

txmarinemom
02-25-2008, 02:08 PM
I certainly didn't intend the "yuck" you into "compliance", however, the fact you suggest so - and that's all you carried away from those photos (not the pain, not the big block of fused vertebra, not the risks associated with the surgery) - certainly exemplifies why I am DONE with input on this topic.

Best of luck.

Pam

nate03
02-25-2008, 02:16 PM
The rate of correction really varies - but correction is actually an "added bonus." The real goal of the staples is to hold the spine from getting any worse to the point of them needing fusion (50 degrees or so)..............But most kids get some correction - sometimes immediately after the surgery, and sometimes the correction occurs during a growth spurt - when the staples are stabilizing that side of the spine.

I would definitely encourage you to get in touch with Janet/Dr.Betz - even if VBS doesn't turn out to be the right treatment for your daughter (because of her medical status or it just isn't something you think is right for her) at least you will always know that you tried your best, and didn't leave any stone unturned - that is all any of us can do :)

Also if you are interested - these 2 articles are about my son Nathan:

BEFORE:
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071206/LIFE/712060301/-1/LIFE03

AFTER:
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080207/LIFE/802070301/-1/LIFE03

-Cara

_________Mom to Nathan Age 11_____________
Diagnosed 24 deg. in July 2007, progressed to 38 deg. by August 2007
Boston Back Brace 8/07 12/07
VBS 12/10/07 Boston Children's Hospital
Dr. Betz/Dr. Hresko
40 Degrees before VBS
25 Degrees After VBS

MATJESNIC
02-25-2008, 03:29 PM
Cara,

I just read the article about Nathan. He's adorable. I wish him and your family all the success in the world. I am so happy he can be a kid without that added burden. You must feel so relieved.

nate03
02-25-2008, 04:53 PM
Thank you so much Melissa!
I really appreciate your kind words :)
-Cara

emarismom
02-25-2008, 05:48 PM
I have a question for any of the parents who have had VBS done on their children. Does anyone by chance know if VBS has been done on anyone with scoliosis caused by Chiari/Syringomyelia? I did call Shriners today and left a message with Janet, but I haven't heard back yet. I tried to do an internet search, but came up with zero. I'm pretty sure VBS has only been done on idiopathic scoli, but it doesn't hurt to look into it I guess. As Cara said-leave no stone unturned.

I do have my daughter in a Spinecor brace, unfortunately things haven't gone very well up to this point, so I want to start looking into my options in case I need to try something else.

mariaf
02-26-2008, 03:47 PM
Since there has been a lot of discussion on this thread about how long it takes for kids to return to normal activities after fusion, there's a thread entitled "How long before back to normal" that answers this question. I'm sure some may have seen it already. It covers the whole range of different time tables and I think might be quite helpful to anyone wondering about this.

Writer
03-06-2008, 02:19 AM
I'm joining this discussion rather late, but I note that nobody has answered Joe's fundamental questions posed in his first post. I agree with most other people on the forum that chiropractic is usually a waste of time, though it's relatively inexpensive.

I have scoliosis, and was treated for it by several different chiropractors sporadically over a period of several years. They were all very bright, caring, and well-meaning people, but most of them did no good beyond short-term pain relief. They are not trained to deal with the fundamental problem of scoliosis, which is a complex imbalance of spinal and other musculature.

They did their spinal adjustments on me, which I thought were rinky-dink. They did electro-stimulation in two areas of my back, also rinky-dink. It will theoretically strengthen the area stimulated, but I sensed no improvement, and clinical studies I've seen conclude that it is ineffective. There are multiple layers of muscles along the spine, for one: how does the doctor know which is or are contributing to the scoliosis, and whether the electro-stimulation will either reach or affect the responsible muscle group(s)?

One chiro placed me regularly in a traction table, but I was unconvinced by his explanation of the theory behind it. He had me doing other stretching exercises, which did no harm but did not promise to make any improvement. In sum, though I would suggest chiro for short-term pain relief -- massage is also good for this -- it will rarely have long-term effect.

Joe also asked about MedX machines. See my previous post in another thread:
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?p=53172#post53172

The most proven conservative treatment system for scoliosis is the Schroth method. This is physiotherapy, which is very different from chiropractic. Do a search for impressions of Schroth on this forum, and focus on those who have direct experience with it.

There is a UK scoliosis forum like ours, where you can read quite a few reports by a post-operative scoliosis patient (nick is Sandman77) during and after his recent stay at a Schroth clinic in Germany.
http://www.scoliosis-support.org/modules/ipboard/index.php?s=&showforum=22

Syd'sDad
03-06-2008, 08:05 PM
Thanks Writer.....! That was exactly the type of information I was looking for when I first posted. It is more clear than ever that VERY rarely is there a homeopathic solution to scoli...

Just an update for all on this board. Sydney is going to Shriners Philly to see Dr.'s Asghar/Betz on March 20th. Thanks for all of the advice and direction. :)

MATJESNIC
03-06-2008, 09:21 PM
The best of luck to you at Shriner's. Please keep us posted.

Syd'sDad
03-07-2008, 01:20 PM
The best of luck to you at Shriner's. Please keep us posted.

Thanks.... I will.....

Brian Rothbart
03-17-2008, 03:36 AM
Several years ago, while a Research Fellow at the Istituto Superiore di Sanita (largest research facility in Italy), I completed a study that suggested ideopathic (unknown) scoliosis may be linked to abnormal motion in the feet. (Intuitively this makes sense, e.g., a building with a weak foundation impacts the entire building, a weak foot impacts the entire body).

The results of this study can be read on my research (non commercial) website at http://www.rothbartsfoot.info/Scoliosis.html

Any questions you may have can be sent to me at rothbartsfoot@yahoo.com

Prof Brian A Rothbart

Christl
03-25-2008, 11:49 PM
I have been taking my daughter to the chiro for pain relief since our crooked journey began 11/2006. Just adjustments once a month to ward off pain, and any additional visits when she tries to show how strong she is and over does herself a little. She hasn't had too many horrible episodes with pain(only a couple brought tears, ice brought relief till we could visit chiro) , but at 12 and 13 years old kids just should not hurt just from bending the wrong way. BTW she just turned 14 a couple of weeks ago.

Our chiro requests records from the ortho after we visit him(every 6 months) and the chiro has actually explained some things in a more understandable manner than the ortho. I do believe in having the chiro/ortho team if there is a minor pain issue. My daughter definitely feels relief after a visit.


Christl
My daughter, 11/2006 23L-41T, 9/2007 ??L-49T progressing
Myself, minor lumbar curvature, saw chiro often during those baby toting days, not so much now.