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Celia
06-04-2007, 11:31 AM
Hey all,

I've made an appointment with a local osteopath that specializes in pediatrics and infants. This particular doctor is an instructor at the local Osteopathic school so she must know what she's doing. Our appointment is scheduled for July 9 and I'll let you all know how it goes! I'm planning to check in with drs Rivard and Coillard to make sure it's okay and I'm not doing more harm. I'm pretty sure osteopathy doesn't involve back cracking because if it does I'm out of there! I don't know why I feel as though I'm treading in uncharted
waters...it could be there are no studies to comfort me.

I was intrigued by the following articles. Does anyone know what CMM entails?

1: Stud Health Technol Inform. 2002;91:365-8. Links

Reversal of the signs and symptoms of moderately severe idiopathic scoliosis in response to physical methods.


Hawes MC, Brooks WJ.
Department of Plant Pathology, University of Arizona, Tucson AZ 85721, USA.

This report describes improved signs and symptoms of previously untreated symptomatic spinal deformity in an adult female diagnosed with moderately severe thoracic scoliosis at the age of .7 years. Current treatment initiated at the age of forty included massage therapy, manual traction, ischemic pressure, and comprehensive manipulative medicine (CMM). A left-right chest circumference inequity was reduced by >10 cm, in correlation with improved appearance of the ribcage deformity and a 40% reduction in magnitude of Cobb angle, which had been stable for 30 years. The changes occurred gradually over an eight-year period, with the most rapid improvement occurring during two periods when CMM was employed.

PMID: 15457757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

http://www.osteopathiccenter.org/scoliosis.html

LindaRacine
06-04-2007, 10:05 PM
Celia...

Osteopathy usually involves at least mild manipulation.

Martha Hawes, who authored the study you quote, was also the subject. Reducing her curve was practically a full-time pursuit for the treatment period. I've not heard whether she's continued the treatment, or whether her curve has returned if she's discontinued treatment. It's frustrating to me, that all these miraculous results are never followed up to tell us what happens when the treatment is stopped.

--Linda

structural75
06-04-2007, 11:10 PM
Linda R,
Please consider this a 'post script' to my 'official last post' on this forum. I couldn't help but say a couple of things for two reasons... 1) Regardless of personal beliefs, opinions, experiences, limitations, etc., I think it's due time to at least open a healthy dialog on other topics that are very closely related to bracing effects. (I applaud Celia for that, regardless of the outcomes) and 2)It's also about time that we begin thinking critically with both studies and clinical experiences at hand... and consider options that are viable adjuncts by learning about them first and then deciding for yourselves whether or not it makes sense to try it. What osteopaths do could, and often does, address/free restrictions within the body that would then allow the bracing to work more effectively. I see no reason why that would be considered rubbish.


Osteopathy usually involves at least mild manipulation.
Actually it depends quite a bit on the Osteopath... Many do not do high velocity adjustments ("manipulation" applies to all of the work they do, not just 'boney' adjustments/'cracking'). Some work only with indirect technique, etc... . The main emphasis in manipulative osteopathy is the soft tissue body... parietal, visceral and neural membranes as the three primary categories. If bony adjustments are made using HVLA adjustments, it will only constitute a small fraction of the treatment time... and if one would prefer not to get such adjustments (which is why many see an osteopath rather than a chiropractor) they just need to tell the osteopath. Also, 'cracking' bones is only one method of moving them... the more skilled method is the precise manipulation (not cracking) of the peri-articular tissues around the joint. It is very gentle, non forceful and usually longer lasting in its effect, since that is ultimately what is positioning the bones.

Be very careful not to try and compare osteopathy to chiropractics... they are not related in the least bit, neither in theory or practice. Yes, osteopaths were the first to move bones in the body, but it isn't the cornerstone of their premise. Let's not use comments like that Linda to discourage people... what would be your suggestion in this case? See another scoliosis surgical specialist? Take drugs??? Bracing is already being utilized with good initial success but the cause has yet to be addressed (which a 'hands-on' approach may be able to reveal, in part at least). We'll never know unless we take our hands out of our pockets... (I picture these Drs standing around a piece of silk draped over their desk... theorizing and speculating about what it feels like... sticking specimens under microscopes with tweezers, poking it with their pens, taking photographs.... you get the idea... just pick it up already. :) )


It's frustrating to me, that all these miraculous results are never followed up to tell us what happens when the treatment is stopped.What would make the results so "miraculous"? Because someone could accomplish with their hands what bracing accomplishes with plastic, nylon and metal? Sounds even more miraculous that we get any results at all from the generalized and forceful approach of bracing.??? But we do... so it's not that miraculous that a skilled and intelligent human being may at times accomplish the same, especially when working in combination. You'd get the consistency maintained by the brace and the precise unwinding by the hand... sounds reasonable.

Linda we must not forget that there are causes for this condition and we can't continue to ignore that aspect of it. Those causes, at least the majority of them, are unique to each person... no study will ever uncover the ONE universal cause of ideopathic scoliosis. So unless we start to consider other options as adjuncts, we'll never have much of a chance to gain ground in that realm. We'll be left treating the symptoms for another 50 years. And if we want more studies, why not be a part of it? Some people would have to do it. Seriously, we can't read about studies on its effectiveness until folks are willing to give these things a try... and it isn't quite fair to say 'well, let someone else try it first'.

It may not be suitable for everyone, but neither are drugs and surgery.

I'm sure you'll have a response for me... that's fine. But I feel I owed this reply to Celia out of respect for her starting this thread. I won't respond, I promise. This was all I wanted to say. (By the way, I'm not an osteopath so this wasn't my attempt to "sell" anything. :) )

Be well,
structural

LindaRacine
06-05-2007, 12:19 AM
Did he realize that we're talking about mature adults, not a child wearing a brace??

And, how many times has he promised to leave. :)

--Linda


Linda R,
Please consider this a 'post script' to my 'official last post' on this forum. I couldn't help but say a couple of things for two reasons... 1) Regardless of personal beliefs, opinions, experiences, limitations, etc., I think it's due time to at least open a healthy dialog on other topics that are very closely related to bracing effects. (I applaud Celia for that, regardless of the outcomes) and 2)It's also about time that we begin thinking critically with both studies and clinical experiences at hand... and consider options that are viable adjuncts by learning about them first and then deciding for yourselves whether or not it makes sense to try it. What osteopaths do could, and often does, address/free restrictions within the body that would then allow the bracing to work more effectively. I see no reason why that would be considered rubbish.


Actually it depends quite a bit on the Osteopath... Many do not do high velocity adjustments ("manipulation" applies to all of the work they do, not just 'boney' adjustments/'cracking'). Some work only with indirect technique, etc... . The main emphasis in manipulative osteopathy is the soft tissue body... parietal, visceral and neural membranes as the three primary categories. If bony adjustments are made using HVLA adjustments, it will only constitute a small fraction of the treatment time... and if one would prefer not to get such adjustments (which is why many see an osteopath rather than a chiropractor) they just need to tell the osteopath. Also, 'cracking' bones is only one method of moving them... the more skilled method is the precise manipulation (not cracking) of the peri-articular tissues around the joint. It is very gentle, non forceful and usually longer lasting in its effect, since that is ultimately what is positioning the bones.

Be very careful not to try and compare osteopathy to chiropractics... they are not related in the least bit, neither in theory or practice. Yes, osteopaths were the first to move bones in the body, but it isn't the cornerstone of their premise. Let's not use comments like that Linda to discourage people... what would be your suggestion in this case? See another scoliosis surgical specialist? Take drugs??? Bracing is already being utilized with good initial success but the cause has yet to be addressed (which a 'hands-on' approach may be able to reveal, in part at least). We'll never know unless we take our hands out of our pockets... (I picture these Drs standing around a piece of silk draped over their desk... theorizing and speculating about what it feels like... sticking specimens under microscopes with tweezers, poking it with their pens, taking photographs.... you get the idea... just pick it up already. :) )

What would make the results so "miraculous"? Because someone could accomplish with their hands what bracing accomplishes with plastic, nylon and metal? Sounds even more miraculous that we get any results at all from the generalized and forceful approach of bracing.??? But we do... so it's not that miraculous that a skilled and intelligent human being may at times accomplish the same, especially when working in combination. You'd get the consistency maintained by the brace and the precise unwinding by the hand... sounds reasonable.

Linda we must not forget that there are causes for this condition and we can't continue to ignore that aspect of it. Those causes, at least the majority of them, are unique to each person... no study will ever uncover the ONE universal cause of ideopathic scoliosis. So unless we start to consider other options as adjuncts, we'll never have much of a chance to gain ground in that realm. We'll be left treating the symptoms for another 50 years. And if we want more studies, why not be a part of it? Some people would have to do it. Seriously, we can't read about studies on its effectiveness until folks are willing to give these things a try... and it isn't quite fair to say 'well, let someone else try it first'.

It may not be suitable for everyone, but neither are drugs and surgery.

I'm sure you'll have a response for me... that's fine. But I feel I owed this reply to Celia out of respect for her starting this thread. I won't respond, I promise. This was all I wanted to say. (By the way, I'm not an osteopath so this wasn't my attempt to "sell" anything. :) )

Be well,
structural

Celia
06-05-2007, 10:29 AM
Hi,

I got a message back from dr. Rivard's office regarding Osteopathy and it's a big resounding NO. I'm cancelling the appointment with the osteopath.

cherylplinder
06-05-2007, 07:50 PM
Did he say anything else?

Celia
06-05-2007, 08:34 PM
Hi Cheryl,

Perhaps they feel in Deirdre's particular case that osteopathy would not be a good idea. I didn't speak directly to Dr. Rivard or Dr. Coillard as the message was relayed to me by the secretary. She did say that dr. Coillard was very much against it and the answer was NO not to go ahead with osteopathy.

Deirdre's spine is being held straight in the spinecor and there are no asymmetric forces acting on the growth plates. Her spine moves freely in all directions so there is nothing for the osteopath to work with - in retrospect this whole thing seems a bit redundant. Structural mentioned *an underlying cause* - what underlying cause is there :confused: She has idiopathic scoliosis.


The real test is going to be the growth spurts... . Then we'll have a better idea if forcing curves back without doing anything whatsoever to address or discover the potential cause was futile or not. Remember, the cause hasn't been acknowledged, only the symptom of it..


Hubby is a bit relieved he won't have additional expenditures to worry about. When I mentioned the appointment to him a few days ago, he threw up his hands in exasperation :D

Celia
06-20-2007, 11:57 AM
I found the following abstract in the SOSORT website re: manual therapy. The conclusion brings to mind the following observation by our good friend Gerbo:

It does appear that practitioners using unproven methods have a lot to lose from proper evidence as it might just show that what they are selling to the unsuspecting public has no real value, or might even be harmful and they would be at risk of losing their livelihood. As lots of "alternative" practitioners make a good living out of selling "hope" (which might be false hope) they have nothing to gain from evidence of effectiveness and will resist therefore proper scientific evaluation of their methods. Evidence is their enemy
As patients, or parents of patients, we are in the exactly opposite position as with the wide range of treatment options on the table, and knowing that time doesn't work in our favour, we need the best available evidence to decide which treatment to choose. We cannot afford to lose time on something what at best makes no difference and at worse could make things worse. Evidence is our friend (although it can be a very harsh and painfully honest friend, like any good friend should be)

Two guiding principles;
1) Lack of evidence of benefit= lack of evidence of potential harmfulness
2) False hope = worse than no hope (whilst providing a good income to the practitioner dealing in it)


ARE MANUAL THERAPIES EFFECTIVE TREATMENTS FOR ADOLESCENT
IDIOPATHIC SCOLIOSIS? A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW
M. Romano, S. Negrini
ISICO (Italian Scientific Spine Institute), Milan
e-mail: michele.romano@isico.it

INTRODUCTION: Manual therapy is a widely common treatment for Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis but today it is no more acceptable to propose therapeutic strategies without verifying their efficacy.

AIM: Systematic review of international scientific literature to verify the efficacy of manual therapy as a conservative treatment of Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis. By the term “manual therapy” we considered all types of treatment characterized by external passive strength (osteopathic, chiropractic, massage techniques), applied by a practitioner on the patients body.

METHOD: Research have been performed on this database: Medline, Embase, Cinhal, Cochrane Library, Pedro. We have included all languages papers published until May 2005. We used a combination of the following key words: idiopathic scoliosis AND chiropractic; idiopathic scoliosis AND manipulation; idiopathic scoliosis AND mobilisation; idiopathic scoliosis AND manual therapy; idiopathic scoliosis AND massage; idiopathic
scoliosis AND therapeutic manoeuvre. We searched also the following specialized databases: Index to Chiropractic Literature, Osteomed, Osteopathic Research Web, N.C.C.A.M. The inclusion criteria: any
study design, diagnosis of idiopathic scoliosis, patients exclusively treated with manual therapy, outcome measure: Cobb degree. We decided the inclusion of research performed with different method of treatment because we realize that a lot of homogeneous study haven’t been included in scientific literature.


RESULTS: With the used search criteria, we found 145 papers in total, but no one met the inclusion criteria. There were only two trials in which manual therapy had been combined with other therapeutic techniques and results were very contradictory. We also found three case reports.

CONCLUSION: Available papers were inadequate for a systematic review. Practitioners who treat Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis with manual therapy don’t have only to publish better quality studies, but, above all, they must simply publish something, because there are no reliable studies at the moment.

structural75
06-20-2007, 06:29 PM
Lumping every manual discipline into the general category of 'manual therapy' is like taking an average on the effectiveness of every type of brace and then drawing conclusions on bracing based on that average. But we're all aware that some braces are more effective than others which is why many folks here have chosen the spinecor. Otherwise, why not just recommend any old brace just like you're suggesting that any type of manual therapy would be appropriate... which definitely isn't the case.

I also didn't notice any reference to connective tissue or fascial manipulation.??? 'Googling' topics on the internet to form a basis of a study seems a bit unsatisfactory to me. Why not reference the clinicians throughout the world who are actually doing the work. Not all research/studies/data are published online.

But in the end, if it serves you to make a point of trying to dismiss things then so be it. We all make our own choices in life and they're only ours to live with.

I think if people had a better understanding of what the bracing is actually doing to the spine physically and physiologically they would clearly see the relevance of certain types of adjunct treatments.

Also, it seems quite interesting to me that the Montreal Drs don't advise ANY additional therapies/exercises for their spinecor patients, despite the fact that the company that makes the brace does recommend certain exercises. It is apparent that if their patients utilized any other methods in combination with the brace it would exclude them from their sterile ongoing study with the spinecor. You can't have some people using the brace exclusively and others doing additional things as well and get accurate conclusions on its effectiveness. I believe strongly that is why they are opposed to things such as osteopathy, etc... I can see no other reason for restricting all of their patients from utilizing adjunctive approaches. All in the name of science and a 'study' to please the manufacturer that they have a business deal with. :rolleyes:

structural

Celia
06-20-2007, 06:57 PM
Structural,

You must be suffering from some mental lapse because the topic is entitled Osteopathy and Scoliosis and *not* Spinecor. You also seem to forget that you made the following statement not too long ago.... :p


This is my absolute final post... go ahead, trash away, nows your chance without getting another reply from me.

I'll be checking back in about 10 - 15 years or so... maybe I'll have some studies to satisfy your needs. Hope all goes as planned for you.

structural75
06-20-2007, 08:30 PM
Yes, that is the title of this thread... but it soon became a passive aggressive means to discredit its use when you reported back Dr. Coillards opinion on its use. Thus, the mention of spinecor and the likely reason why you received such poor advice.


Structural mentioned *an underlying cause* - what underlying cause is there She has idiopathic scoliosis. Ideopathic scoliosis doesn't mean there is NOT a cause, it means the cause is UNKNOWN. Thus she has a scoliosis with an unknown cause that nobody seems interested in, just the mechanical correction of the symptom. If the Drs. in Montreal want to focus all of their effort on the symptom (the curvature of the spine) and discourage their patients from taking a more rounded approach, fine... . But that doesn't mean there wasn't/isn't a cause for your daughter's scoliosis, it just means your Drs don't care to inquire about what that cause might be. And using your theory, you should be able to remove the brace now that you've got virtually perfect correction, right??? After all, there is no cause as you say. What would the osteopath work with??? They will attempt to shed more light and treat the initial impetus that caused your daughter's spine to curve in the first place. (which is more than likely still there given the torque/rotation evident in the x-ray, despite the spine being straight)

Your right, I thought I could move onward from these senseless rants but I can't stand to watch individuals/parents discredit entire professions and approaches because they choose not to explore those avenues themselves or make informed decisions before diving head first into them(which consists of more than just reading studies, but using logic and common sense). Or because their Dr. is ignorant about these other treatment approaches. It's one thing to be here offering advice and support to one another, but to post material that is clearly meant to do nothing but attempt to discredit legitimate professions and avenues of inquiry into this condition is uphauling. If you demand studies on every thing you do before you do it, so be it... but there is clearly no use for the study you posted and it serves no purpose other than to keep people away from anything but bracing.

How many more decades are we going to spend putting people in these devices and calling it done... that's it, the best we can do....? If these Drs. are so darn brilliant, then why haven't we come up with anything beyond putting peoples bodies in a mold? That's a fine start, but if we can't build on that and come up with something to actually find out more about what's causing these problems then something's wrong. Sticking with the same idea/premise is only going to yield similar results.

So leave it be Celia... if you don't believe in anything outside of what Dr. Coillard thinks, that's fine... but there are folks who have followed his 'protocol' and things aren't looking much better if at all.

As far as doing harm... I don't know of one study out there that performed a follow-up of patients who were braced in regards to their physical and physiologic health. Do you know of any? Who's to say that bracing (ie-forcing the curvature back without regard for the physiologic systems the body may have been trying to protect) didn't result in health issues for some people down the road? We wouldn't know because nobody has looked at this.


Two guiding principles;
1) Lack of evidence of benefit= lack of evidence of potential harmfulness
2) False hope = worse than no hope (whilst providing a good income to the practitioner dealing in it)
Very poor conclusions... 1) Show me one study that examines the potential side effects/harm of bracing. All they examine is the correction ability of the bracing, not the flip side. 2) These bracing studies alone give a tremendous amount of hope to individuals, and it's nowhere near 100% effective (meaning that many don't get the effect they were expecting from it). You don't consider that false hope? Do you and your pal Gerbo really believe that having some studies on these topics wouldn't create even greater hope for people... only to have some people discover that they were one of the unfortunate ones it didn't help.??? At least I don't promise anything to my clients or lean on some study as a crutch or use it as a beacon of light that only some will ever see. And the last I checked, the Drs are doing pretty darn well financially, even if they don't succeed all the time and aren't bothering to intervene sooner or open themselves to methods beyond their scope of practice.

Many of the methods commonly used try to fight the scoliosis with force (brace, exercise/strengthening, etc.). There are methods that are attempting to address the underlaying persuasion that initiated the curve. The first approach is trying to redirect the massive 'current' (often being overcome by its tenacity and force) and the other is trying to change the 'riverbed' through which the current flows.

Celia
06-20-2007, 09:46 PM
There is no reason for me not to trust dr. Rivard and dr.Coillard because they are experts in this field and their reply to me is consistent with the abstract which was presented by doctors at the SOSORT meeting in 2006. I don't know what your credentials are but it appears that these doctors who are very much interested in the conservative non operative treatment of scoliosis are dismissing manual therapies because there are no studies pointing to it's efficacy - thus a waste of time and money. One has to wonder why after so many years this is the case and as Gerbo succinctly points out "evidence is our friend".

structural75
06-20-2007, 11:15 PM
...there are no studies pointing to it's efficacy - thus a waste of time and money.Wait, since when does "no studies" = "waste of time"??? Was that your feeling on the spinecor brace before ANY studies had yet to be performed? What kind of logic is that? You wouldn't be using it if that were the case because you would have dismissed it a long time ago and never looked back... right? And what about their concept to begin with... a flexible corrective brace for scoliosis... ??? Albeit, I think it's the best idea thus far in the world of bracing, however they took their idea which had no studies to support it or no prior experience to suggest it would work... I find it quite surprising that they gained the acceptance of such a harsh critic as yourself given your stance on legitimacy and studies.

Are there any studies that show spinecors long-term effectiveness of use following serial casting at a very early age of curves exceeding 50 degrees? Are there any studies that show its efficacy in treatment of these types of situations during major adolescent growth spurts? Or would a more rigid cast be needed for bracing to still be effective? These are all legitimate questions without answers or studies to back them up, yet you seem perfectly willing to be part of the 'experiment'. How is that any different than someone trying another non-operative approach in combination with the brace despite no relevant studies? And how do you, or the Montreal Drs., know that using the spinecor brace on an individual who had a 60 degree curve at 19 months of age isn't going to cause problems/harm when she starts growing rapidly?

And where are the studies showing that stretching ligaments is beneficial, or not harmful? You seem to lean upon Gerbo's comments and opinions on this 'harm vs. no harm without studies' theory. Doesn't that apply to your good friend as well? If he's promoting and playing therapist at home on his own trying to stretch his daughter's ligaments, shouldn't there be a study to support its efficacy? And better yet, shouldn't he leave that up to someone who really knows what they're doing? A non-professional lay person manipulating/stretching his daughter's spine + no studies to confirm its efficacy = way more potential harm than what he is suggesting of actual professionals.

Also, there may be "no" studies available to you on the internet, does that mean that none exist?


There is no reason for me not to trust dr. Rivard and dr.Coillard because they are experts in this field and their reply to me is consistent with the abstract which was presented by doctors at the SOSORT meeting in 2006They are 'experts' in their field, not all fields. You don't ask a surgeon about manipulative therapies just as you don't ask manipulative practitioners about surgery. Given that they're not open to anything but use of the spinecor brace, as 'evident' by their advice to you and others, I would say they're primarily interested in the spinecor brace and their own personal interests. Remember, "evidence is our friend"... and it points to nothing but their brace. Do you honestly think this is the magic bullet that is going to resolve everyones scoliosis? Judging by the statistics I'd say it clearly isn't.

It pains me to think how much more successful their bracing attempts would/could be if they gave their patients the opportunity to do more and they viewed this condition as more than just a mechanistic curvature of the spine.

Do you know how to interpret a study properly or know which ones are done well and which ones are done poorly (as the one you sited). An internet search as the basis of a study does not constitute quality scientific research.

gerbo
06-21-2007, 02:44 AM
Structural, your discussions with celia are not of my concern. I know you and celia do not get on and that is never going to change. I do regret that after we finally after our last "exchange of views" agreed to disagree and left on friendly terms, you now feel it necessary to personally attack me. I have no issue with discussions about general observations I have made, and i stand by them, but to personaly attack my management of my daughter was unasked for and unneccessary. just for the record;


And where are the studies showing that stretching ligaments is beneficial, or not harmful? There are none, none, for everybody to see; there are none!! (now, match that)


You seem to lean upon Gerbo's comments and opinions on this 'harm vs. no harm without studies' theory.
This is no theory, this is an acceptable principle in the whole scientific community. Ofcourse, people who for their own reasons do not work to scientific principles will not recognise this.


Doesn't that apply to your good friend as well? If he's promoting and playing therapist at home on his own trying to stretch his daughter's ligaments, shouldn't there be a study to support its efficacy?

This is the big difference between you and me structural. I am not promoting anything, I am only sharing my experiences with people in a similar situation as me whilst pointing out that there is no evidence to back up what i am doing. i am not encouraging people to do this themselves!!! You do lots of promoting!! I might take a risk, but unlike you, I am not encouraging other people to take a risk


And better yet, shouldn't he leave that up to someone who really knows what they're doing? A non-professional lay person manipulating/stretching his daughter's spine + no studies to confirm its efficacy = way more potential harm than what he is suggesting of

You are making assumptions structural. You do not know what physical therapists/ physio's i have and have had involved!


actual professionals.

how to define one of those; is a raindroptherapist a professional, a colourtherapist, a palmreader, a chiropracter?? It is an empty meaningless term and as a label covers lots of sins and bad practice.......

structural75
06-21-2007, 08:11 AM
Playing that card again... lumping sound anatomically physiologically based and scientifically scrutinized approaches to the body to raindrop therapy... where's the comparison? Certain professions may not have studies relating directly to scoliosis in the form you'd like to see, but they absolutely have gone under scientific scrutiny for many other conditions/reasons... with success I might add. Did you not take a glance at the link I gave you in another post. We are NOT afraid of the scientific process, the creator of the work I do was a RESEARCH SCIENTIST her entire career, and strongly advocated scientific inquiry into her work, and consequently subjected it to it. She felt it was of utmost importance. Where's the apparent avoidance you continue to suggest? The problem here is that it was studied for a variety of effects, it was not created solely to treat scoliosis but rather for the treatment of any number of physical conditions etc... . The studies showed it's effectiveness at altering human structure for the better (significant change in lumbar lordosis/sway back, pelvic inclination, higher efficiency and function via EMG tests, etc.)... if you can't grasp its relevance here then I don't know what else to say.


This is no theory, this is an acceptable principle in the whole scientific community. Ofcourse, people who for their own reasons do not work to scientific principles will not recognise this.

You constantly seem to think that certain profession, namely mine, are avoiding scientific analysis... and that simply isn't the case... .

Sorry for the apparent 'attack'... I didn't intend it to be, however, if Celia is going to use your statements to try and make a point to discredit everything that she lacks an understanding of then I will point out the hypocracy in it. And that goes for you as well... you hold me to a standard that you're not even holding your own physiotherapist to... so it's OK for you to go to a physio who is doing things that hasn't been "proven" in scientific studies but people on this forum can't inquire and try something I suggest that I know has been effective in some cases and may possibly help them? Just as it's your "risk" to take, it is also everyone elses, and bracing has its risks as well. The truth of the matter is that we don't fully know what those risks with bracing are yet because nobody has looked into them or examined the possibilities of it to notice.



This is the big difference between you and me structural. I am not promoting anything, I am only sharing my experiences with people in a similar situation as me whilst pointing out that there is no evidence to back up what i am doing. i am not encouraging people to do this themselves!!! You do lots of promoting!! I might take a risk, but unlike you, I am not encouraging other people to take a riskNo you're not personally encouraging anyone, but your physio has suggested and encouraged you to take a risk... otherwise you wouldn't be doing those things. How many more people have they encouraged to do these activities? So you're physio is in the right here to do these things with people but no one else is??? Is your physio exempt from such scrutiny? And for the record, I am also "sharing my experiences with people" and acknowledge that there aren't any formal studies online to prove it, however my "sharing" happens to come from professional experience in the clinical setting where evidence does exist whether it was part of a study or not! And you are in no place to refute that fact. And I gain nothing financially from sharing it.

Promoting???? When did I promote myself??? Where is it that I told one single person on this forum to come and see me???? I'm simply defending the relevance of Classical Osteopath Manipulative Medicine as a potential adjunct in the overall treatment of scoliosis... Your friends seems to think it's OK as parents to be providing oversight and judgment on professions they know nothing about other than what they read on the internet. And we all know that I could go out into cyberspace and find numerous reports, papers and studies which say that bracing is NOT effective and make decisions based on that inaccurate information... but I know better than that and it will always be dependent on who you ask and where you source your info from. Now granted, I realize that some people here have had experiences with certain things (chiro, raindrop therapy?) and it is perfectly valid and appropriate for them to share their experiences and opinions... but as of yet, nobody has come out and said anything negativev about their experience with the approaches I have put forth or defended.
I'm tired of your 'promotional accusations'.. there's no bases for that garbage here. Some people don't want to sit on their hands and resign themselves to just bracing or only things that have already been 'studied scientifically'... and good for them. I'm certain that you'll see the studies you demand on certain professions some day, but until then, I think you should re-evaluate your idea of risks involved in some of these approaches... If you understood them and the close relationship they have to bracing affects, you'd see that you're creating unnecessary fears for people wishing to pursue additional options. But that's assuming you understand how they work and what they are doing... which you clearly don't.


4-year-old Tim Barrett had been diagnosed with Legg-Perthes disease (a femur capital necrosis occurring in children). Doctors told Barrett's mother to put Tim in a cast for five years, others predicted he would be in a wheelchair by his 20th birthday. Listening instead to Ida Rolf, the child's mother subjected her son to several months of treatments. The payoff? Tim is now a 40-something surfer who grew up without any disabilities or lasting reminders of his childhood challenges.I don't believe there were any studies relating the work to the treatment of Legg-Perthes disease, ...And the Doctors were suggesting to do what had been the accepted norm... .

Taking educated risks is the only way we're going to see a change in the treatment of scoliosis. And I'm not twisting anyones arm on the matter, just defending the right for an unbiased presentation of information and available approaches/options for people. If you folks want to spend your time trying to dismiss and discredit everything that hasn't been studied and you don't understand, so be it. But I will defend the right to share information against unwarranted slander. Seriously now, if you guys spent as much time educating yourselves about some of these things as you do trying to find 'evidence' to discredit them, you might have actually learned something by now.

So when someone asks if there is anything else that other folks have tried that might help, I will gladly share what I know.

p.s.-By the way, I'm not an Osteopath so what would be the point in me 'promoting' it? This is a thread on osteopathy and scoliosis after all.

structural75
06-21-2007, 10:57 PM
how to define one of those; is a raindroptherapist a professional, a colourtherapist, a palmreader, a chiropracter?? It is an empty meaningless term and as a label covers lots of sins and bad practice.......As is the term 'Doctor'... Is it not? Is every M.D. out there under this title honest, competent, responsible and trustworthy? ...Not quite! Does that mean they're all 'sinners' practicing "bad" medicine... not quite!

I'm sorry if you can't distinguish the difference between palm readers and Osteopathic Physicians.

gerbo
06-22-2007, 02:30 AM
did I mention Osteopaths??

structural75
06-22-2007, 07:30 AM
Well, then what were you suggesting by that comment? Because I wasn't defending or trying to establish 'professional' credibility and relevance for a"raindroptherapist, a colourtherapist, a palmreader, a chiropracter". The topic of this thread is Osteopathy and assertions have been made against "manual" intervention.

Celia
06-22-2007, 02:25 PM
If anyone is making assertions, it's YOU! There is no proof that manual therapy works other than to make one *feel* better perhaps and a lot of this would depend on the appearance of the manual practitioner :D



*

structural75
06-22-2007, 04:35 PM
That's cute Celia...


If anyone is making assertions, it's YOU! There is no proof that manual therapy works other than to make one *feel* better perhaps and a lot of this would depend on the appearance of the manual practitioner That's because I actually have a basis for my assertions! I have clinical experience with this as do many other practitioners in specific disciplines which shall remain nameless. Remember, just because there isn't a formal study for you to read doesn't mean it hasn't happened in clinical settings.
For example, I have had several patients who take a prescription nerve drug that was designed and tested for shingles and diabetic peripheral nerve pain, yet it works quite well for them even though they don't have either of those conditions and there are NO, ZERO, ZILCH studies to "prove" it will help them... and their DOCTORS are prescribing it despite not being tested or studied for 'other' conditions because they've found it to be effective. This type of practice is happening on a daily basis in the medical world.... How is that any different than this? Are you telling me that because there are no studies on the prescribed use of these drugs that they aren't working for these people? If so, then why do the DRs continue to prescribe them? ...You are intentionally turning a blind eye to the reality and logic here... You can't possibly 'assert' that certain types of manual therapy are a "waste of time and money" simply because studies haven't been performed... That's rediculous!

Where is your "evidence" to show that certain types of manual therapy are NOT effective? Or are YOU just making "assertions"???

p.s. - Are you also asserting in your 'original' post that all types of manual therapy are a form of massage (your reference to a "masseuse"???)? Sorry, but wrong again... massage will do nothing but possibly provide temporary relief from some pain, circulate blood and stimulate relaxation.

cherylplinder
06-22-2007, 05:19 PM
Also, it seems quite interesting to me that the Montreal Drs don't advise ANY additional therapies/exercises for their spinecor patients, despite the fact that the company that makes the brace does recommend certain exercises. It is apparent that if their patients utilized any other methods in combination with the brace it would exclude them from their sterile ongoing study with the spinecor. You can't have some people using the brace exclusively and others doing additional things as well and get accurate conclusions on its effectiveness. I believe strongly that is why they are opposed to things such as osteopathy, etc... I can see no other reason for restricting all of their patients from utilizing adjunctive approaches. All in the name of science and a 'study' to please the manufacturer that they have a business deal with. :rolleyes:

Structural

Structural,

Are you aware that Dr. Christine Coillard did her PhD in the biomechanics of the spine and is the designer and developer of the brace? From what I understand, others have tried to tack on additional therapies to the brace, but initial results idicated that they were not necessarily effective and possibly detrimental. You should get your facts straight before you start shooting off.

structural75
06-22-2007, 06:27 PM
Cheryl to the rescue...

You should get your facts straight before you start shooting off.Likewise...

The following is from the spinecorporation website, makers of the spinecor brace.

The SpineCor Physiotherapy Program has been designed to complement the action of the brace and reinforce the principles of the treatment.

Precise exercises have been designed for each type of scoliosis curve, according to the specific spine deformation and postural disorganization of the patient.

Patients treated with the SpineCor® brace must only carry out the exercises exclusively designed for his/her type of scoliosis curve to avoid interfering with the action of the brace.

Patients treated with the SpineCor® brace must not carry out any other exercises program than the one designed to be performed in conjunction with the SpineCor® brace treatment.

Therefore, all physiotherapists working with patients treated with the SpineCor® System must follow a specific SpineCor Physiotherapy Training Program, in order to learn the treatment principles and understand the new treatment approach, to be accredited as Authorized SpineCor Physiotherapists.




Are you aware that Dr. Christine Coillard did her PhD in the biomechanics of the spine and is the designer and developer of the brace? Yes, indeed I am. Are you aware that Dr. Coillard is not the only person with a PhD in the biomechanics of the spine? Is she the only qualified expert in spinal mechanics? Is Dr. Coillard also an expert on Osteopathic manipulative medicine and technique? What does she know about manipulation?...


From what I understand, others have tried to tack on additional therapies to the brace, but initial results idicated that they were not necessarily effective and possibly detrimental.Detrimental? Why would the manufacturer of the prestigious spinecor brace (Dr. Coillard's 'personal creation' mind you) develop and recommend a physiotherapy program to accompany its use if it were detrimental? Wouldn't Dr. Coillard have an interest in stopping such 'harmful' practices being promoted by the company that makes her brace?

Hmmmmm..... Again... "You should get your facts straight before you start shooting off."

cherylplinder
06-22-2007, 07:35 PM
I just laugh at you now. You are full of a lot of hot air. :D lol
My child has really been helped by the brace. I know Dr. Coillard and Dr. Rivard personally. I am a REALLY GOOD judge of people. I have a natural ability to discern integrity and character. Two finer physicians do not exist.
I feel confident that a woman with a PhD in the biomechanics of the spine knows more about what is best for my child and others than you do.
I am completely comfortable trusting her and Dr. Rivard. COMPLETELY!
I have already experienced results that were deemed not possible a year ago, according to the available studies. So have many others that post on this forum.
I am still tired of you.
You promised not to post anymore. You can't keep your word, I guess.
Go ahead and reply. I'm laughing at you.

cherylplinder
06-22-2007, 07:42 PM
Cheryl to the rescue...


Gerbo and Celia are amazing friends. I would defend them if they needed it. And you are quite obnoxious in your posts to them. But they don't need my protection or defense, thank you. They are quite capable of defending themselves.
But occasionally I read what you post and feel compelled to respond to your lunacy.

cherylplinder
06-22-2007, 08:13 PM
I don't know what Rachel's results will be in July. She has given me a little trouble occasionally this round about wearing her brace, and has not been as faithful this time. If her results this time are less than optimal, I will attribute it to that. She has grown very little this round.
I will always be grateful for the 4 inches she grew without progressing. She has a very short torso anyway, and proportion was an issue for me, if she had to be fused this year. Four inches is half of the amount she needed to grow to reach her mature height. She only lacks about 4 more , I think. That is, if she is destined to be my height.

structural75
06-22-2007, 09:48 PM
You are full of a lot of hot air.What specifically are you refering to as "hot air"?

My child has really been helped by the brace. I know Dr. Coillard and Dr. Rivard personally. I am a REALLY GOOD judge of people. I have a natural ability to discern integrity and character. Two finer physicians do not exist.I have never discredited the brace Cheryl. In fact I've praised their contribution to the bracing world... I do feel it is one of the best bracing options, if not the best, for those who qualify. It was a long time coming but at least it's finally here. And frankly, you know absolutely nothing about me other than I'm someone who will passionately stand up for the minorities. You have a "natural ability"... ??? Well, it's not working at the moment because you've got me all wrong. If you can't see that I'm simply defending people's right to have options and opinions without being degraded or discredited, then you've been blinded by the 'light'.

I feel confident that a woman with a PhD in the biomechanics of the spine knows more about what is best for my child and others than you do. I'm not suggesting what's best for your child... when did your child enter into all this? I have a right to respond to peoples inquiries about what is available to them when other more conventional routes aren't working very well. If you don't like it, tough. And regardless of her abilities as a Doctor, that still doesn't make her the authority on everything that exists in the world. I think you've mistaken her with God. (p.s. - The creator/inventer/mind behind the profession that I practice was also a PhD... in biochemistry and physiology... I'd put a wee bit of trust in her work as well ;) )

I have already experienced results that were deemed not possible a year ago, according to the available studies. So have many others that post on this forum. Wait a minute... Isn't that my line... ;) . Isn't that what I'm defending here? I'm trying to let people know that studies do not reveal ALL of the potential and relevant adjunct treatment options available... So here I've been making suggestions to folks and you and your "friends" come down on me because the formal studies aren't "available"... But it's OK for you and "many others" to take that route, as long as you all support each other, right? :confused: So I present something that YOU deem is not possible and I should pipe down, but you do something that's deemed impossible according to the studies and it's OK.??????? Talk about lunacy!

...you are quite obnoxious in your posts to them.And you all are NOT to begin with??? I'm not the one name calling Cheryl. You just don't like that I won't let you people push good folks around. Maybe if you were a little more secure about yourself you wouldn't feel the need to attack those with differing opinions.

I am still tired of you.
You promised not to post anymore. You can't keep your word, I guess.Yes I did promise, but if I don't defend these absurd and slanderous remarks aimed at debunking anything you elites don't choose to consider for yourselves, then who will? Have you ever thought of how many people out there are afraid to post on this forum because they know you people are right there ready to belittle them if they ask a question about this stuff. Besides, you people have shown me virtually no respect, if at all... since when does my "word" mean a darn thing to you?

Continue to humor me.

cherylplinder
06-22-2007, 10:17 PM
What specifically are you refering to as "hot air"?

I'm not suggesting what's best for your child... when did your child enter into all this?

Are you or are you not disagreeing with Dr. Coillard's stand on other treatments in combination with the Spinecor?

Are you or are you not suggesting that she is wrong?

I was merely responding to your lack of confidence in her stance as it would apply to my child. Your comments do apply to her. My child is in the Spinecor brace and Dr. Coillard is her physician.

My confidence is in this amazing physician that has proven her knowledge and ability in an amazing brace.

You are correct. I have absolutely no confidence in you. Are you published? I would be happy to read and evaluate your work.

cherylplinder
06-22-2007, 10:21 PM
Do you always forget what the conversation is about?

structural75
06-22-2007, 10:39 PM
Do you always forget what the conversation is about???? No, not at all. My latest leap into this thread followed Celia's posting on "Manual Therapy" and it's unvalidated efficacy in the treatment, adjunct or otherwise, of ideopathic scoliosis... She concluded that because there were no studies definitively concluding its efficacy, then that was the equivilant to a "waste of time and money".

That was what the conversation was about to begin with. Where's the confusion?

Are you or are you not disagreeing with her stand on other treatments in combination with the Spinecor?

Are you or are you not suggesting that she is wrong?I can respect her decision, but it doesn't mean that it is the ONLY decision that could be made. As far as other treatments with spincor... the DRs in Montreal choose not to utilize anything else and the brace manufacturer recommends otherwise. That's pretty much all that I'm saying. Once again, I don't believe that there is a definitive right or wrong answer here.. but others seem to think there is. So be it!

I was merely responding to your lack of confidence in her stance as it would apply to my child. Your comments do apply to her.I don't lack confidence in the parents here... you're doing the best you possibly can given the information you have and deem valid. I expect more from the "finest" physicians around... I admire their work, but I don't close the door on everything else. That's pure ignorance and arrogance.

You are correct. I have absolutely no confidence in you. Are you published? I would be happy to read and evaluate your work.Again, I don't care Cheryl. I'm not here to gain your approval or confidence. And who are you to be qualified to evaluate my work??? Theories and writing are lovely, but the real evidence comes through the work. You can talk about this stuff all you want, but at the end of the day people want to feel and see the difference. That's what I'm most concerned with right now.

cherylplinder
06-22-2007, 11:56 PM
Statistics speak for themselves. Any reasonable, rational, intelligent person can read and evaluate a well done study with statistics and supportive evidence. Dr. Coillard is published many times over. I value her opinion on the further treatment of my child and on any treatment of her scoliosis that I consider.
So what do you mean "Who are you to be qualified to evaluate my work?"

I just asked, since you disagree with Dr. Coillard's recommendations, if you were also published. In other words, what are your qualifications that I would take your recommendation over hers! It is a reasonable question, if you expect me to consider your advice and berate me for not considering your opinion over hers.

People may "feel and see the difference" but there are objective parameters that should be measured and documented to support any therapy. Where are your documented, published objective parameters that support your recommendations?

structural75
06-23-2007, 01:25 PM
Statistics speak for themselves. Any reasonable, rational, intelligent person can read and evaluate a well done study with statistics and supportive evidence.Statistics and data speak for themselves, whether they're published in a study or not. And yes, anyone can read a study, but do you actually understand why and how things work? Again, if you did, then you'd see why Doctors regularly prescribe medication/drugs to people everyday that have not been tested/studied for those intended uses. They do it because it has been deemed safe for other conditions and with their professional and educated knowledge they're able to apply its use to 'other' conditions as well.

I just asked, since you disagree with Dr. Coillard's recommendations, if you were also published. In other words, what are your qualifications that I would take your recommendation over hers!I don't disagree with all of her recommendations... but I would like to know 'why' she feels there is nothing else that could be of benefit to certain people. There's nothing wrong with asking WHY... All too often we neglect this aspect of both the condition itself and the treatment... and that is often how some people get led astray doing other things that simply have no hope of having an effect.

People may "feel and see the difference" but there are objective parameters that should be measured and documented to support any therapy. Where are your documented, published objective parameters that support your recommendations?Again, see above mentioned... Besides, as much as I'd like to show you something, I can't at the moment. But that has been the main problem you people have had with me from the start, and I've conceeded to that fact. So if you don't care to try my recommendations (which I never gave to you anyhow, or anyone who wasn't asking for one) then don't, plain and simple. Go on your merry way and I'll go mine. But you're not going to stop me from giving my opinion or experiences.

Cont..Especially if you are going to give advice that goes against the advice of a child's physician, and it appears by the physicians response that they feel that treatment may be harmful. I think you feel comfortable giving Dr. Coillard's and Rivard's patients your recommendations, which are contradictory to theirs, because there is no professionaly liability on this forum. No one can pursue litigation for your advice here, I suppose.Celia took it upon herself to set up an appointment with an Osteopath, I didn't twist her arm. I made an observation and expressed it regarding the x-ray... I would still like to hear the "PhD's" opinion of it... Not just that she's opposed to anything else. In my book, parents deserve an explanation so that they understand why. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not superceeding the Dr.s orders, just asking why, I'd be interested to know if my Dr. was limiting treatment options... wouldn't you? After all, it would clarify just what type of supposed harm it might cause... maybe we'd all be a little more enlightened from that.
Professional liability, and more importantly my patients' health, is precisely why I work with their Doctors, not seperate from. It is also why I will often refer them to a surgical specialists when I see something of concern prior to treatment. I recently did just that for an 80 year old woman with a lumbar scoliosis never treated because her doctors never detected it until late into adulthood... (primarily because many Doctors hardly touch their patients or thoroughly examine them because they're too busy looking at their 'files' and various other paper/lab work.) This woman had been treated by a chiro with adjustments and a lift... very inappropriate given what was happening with her spine. I examined her x-rays and suggested getting more recent ones and taking them to a specialist. She did and the Doctor didn't even examine her body, just looked at the x-rays, said she shouldn't have surgery (obviously at her age) and that she should get drugs for the pain and do Pilates!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: He felt she should leave her spinal health up to a Pilates instrucor with 30 - 40 hours of anatomy training... You've got to be kidding me! Meanwhile, he agreed with everything else I suggested to her and our work is the onlly thing that is making a significant and lasting difference (granted we are primarily concerned with pain issues and mobility and functional biomechanics of her hips, pelvis etc. ... her spine is not going to change at this late point in time.) So maybe you can see why I always question everything and everyone, including the relevance of my own work with every person... whether they have a PhD in biomechanics or not. A surgeon works their own set of tools to apply that knowledge, I work with a different set of tools to apply that knowledge.... Everything looks like a nail if all you've got is a hammer... The Doctors are doing what they can within their domain, I can respect that but won't limit myself and my patients to one single opinion or perspective... including my own.

But as you are not an orthopedic surgeon, nor a pediatrician, nor have you done a PhD in the biomechanics of the spine and are not published anywhere, I think I'll take Dr. Coillard's advice, thank Ortho surgeon uses knives, I wouldn't expect them to have direct experience with much else... I use my hands. Pediatricians often suggest "waiting and watching"... terrible advice and should constitute negligence. Many of the PhDs in my profession have in fact worked successfully with scoliosis... whether published or not. If the PhDs you speak of took their head out of the books for a moment and did some leg work to see what was really going on out there, maybe they'd see things differently.

cherylplinder
06-23-2007, 02:45 PM
[QUOTE=structural75]Statistics and data speak for themselves, whether they're published in a study or not.

You have collected and recorded data? How many patients are in your study? What parameters are you measuring? What are your controls?

Are you systematically collecting verifiable data and recording it? Are you then figuring the statistics on your data?


You are always talking out of both sides of your mouth, constantly contradicting what you yourself say.

Examples: You have stated the following:

Drs. Coillard and Rivard developed the best brace on the market, but are arrogant and ignorant to dismiss the alternative therapies you recommend because they want a sterile study of the Spinecor brace (Which implies that they are more concerned with that than the health of their patients.)

Although I know Dr. Coillard and Rivard do surgery when there is no alternative, to say that they don't have much experience with much else is absurd. To imply that you use your hands and they don't is absurd! They devote the majority of their time to the Spinecor brace because they believe it is preferable to surgery! I know they aren't in it for the money. They tell me every time to pay them their fee, IF I have the funds!

If the PhD's in your profession are having success in their treatments of scoliosis, they sould collect their data and publish. Initial results don't take 10 or 15 years. You can see results in the treatment of adolescent, juvenile and infantile scoliosis in a short amount of time because the scoliotic curve either deteriorates, improves, or stabilizes. These kids are growing and you see one or the other rapidly.

If initial results with the Spinecor had been poor, the brace would not be in its second decade of use. We are not the pioneers. The initial patients were. Yet, I know they were monitored closely for any deterioration in their curves and treament adjusted accordingly. The data was recorded for the statistics that I read before choosing this brace for my child.

Again, if the PhD's in your profession are having success in their treaments of scoliosis, the should collect their data and publish.

I don't have time to list all the inconsistencies I see in your posts. I am not going to waste any more time corresponding with you right now.

csbaby
06-23-2007, 03:05 PM
[/QUOTE]Besides, you people have shown me virtually no respect, if at all... since when does my "word" mean a darn thing to you?

Continue to humor me.[/QUOTE]

You have yet to earn the respect of many on this forum. All you seem to do is add insult to injury. As for your word, it obviously doesn't mean anything to anyone here - so keep it and go away.

Start your own forum and if people are interested in your opinion, they would come to you. We all know how to search for information on the internet, so post something and if what you post is worthy, then people will take notice.

Or you can provide your contact information so people can contact you directly for your opinion and advice. Your are hiding behind your anonimity on this forum and insulting people while magnifying your unprofessionalism at the same time. This forum is not the place to promote yourself or annoy and attack members who are already coping with the suffering in their own bodies or for their loved ones.

structural75
06-23-2007, 08:37 PM
You have collected and recorded data? How many patients are in your study? What parameters are you measuring? What are your controls? Did I not state that there are no studies to show you?

I haven't contradicted a thing... read my posts in there context and stop trying to create an argument. As I understand it, you don't do anything that isn't published, and I am supportive of a wider range of options that potentially address more than just the symptom. Fair enough?

Although I know Dr. Coillard and Rivard do surgery when there is no alternative, to say that they don't have much experience with much else is absurd. To imply that you use your hands and they don't is absurd!Is "no alternative" the same as 'if the brace fails'? What are their other alternatives? What else are they doing besides bracing? And why have they stopped doing it to those who use the spinecor? Were those other alternatives not effective for them? And of course they use their hands, to hold the scalpel... and I respect them tremendously for that because it has in fact helped many people in need.

We are not the pioneers. The initial patients were. Yet, I know they were monitored closely for any deterioration in their curves and treament adjusted accordingly. The data was recorded for the statistics that I read before choosing this brace for my child.So it's all right for someone elses child to be the test subject with unpredictable outcomes etc... but you wouldn't dare try it until the studies were complete... unbelievable hypocracy! Doctors can prescribe drugs that aren't tested or studied for the intended use, children can be test subjects for an experimental revolutionary brace, ...but I can't suggest to someone to try something that has been very effective at addressing structural/biomechanical/functional imbalances in the human body??? I don't get it? There are even studies that demonstrate its effective at significantly altering primary and secondary curvatures of the spine (those are the lordotic and kyphotic ones) as well as pelvic inclination etc.... and you think that it's far fetched to consider its relevance to scoliosis???

What about all the people here 'promoting' Pilates, Yoga, PT/Physio, MAT, etc... Are there studies showing the efficacy of those disciplines???? I'm certain there's not. So why not jump on their backs as well...?

I'm only suggesting things when people ask... for instance: Someone recently asked about swayback and any potential therapies that might help correct it... I suggested " " because it can in fact correct that problem, as demonstrated in a study at the University of Maryland. And if someones in pain and their Dr is suggesting drugs/surgery as the only option, why would you not try something that has shown to be remarkably effective for chronic pain?

structural75
06-23-2007, 09:09 PM
csbaby,

You have yet to earn the respect of many on this forumYou got me on a bad couple of days... I'm so tired of you people attacking others on this forum when their ideas differ from mainstream medical thinking.

You'd actually be surprised at how many private messages I've received over the last several months from people thanking me for standing up to some of these bullish leaders here. If you actually took the time to read some of my initial posts on this forum you'd see that I had nothing but good and kind-hearted intentions before others began questioning me and throwing personal insults at ME, not the other way around csbaby!


We all know how to search for information on the internet, so post something and if what you post is worthy, then people will take notice. If that were the case, you'd all know that my profession is not afraid whatsoever of scientific analysis! And tell me, why is it that you still know nothing about my profession then?

Or you can provide your contact information so people can contact you directly for your opinion and advice. Your are hiding behind your anonimity on this forum and insulting people while magnifying your unprofessionalism at the same time. This forum is not the place to promote yourself or annoy and attack members who are already coping with the suffering in their own bodies or for their loved ones.When I first joined this forum 9 months ago or so, I made myself completely transparent to everyone by giving all of my personal info in my profile. Soon enough however certain individuals began casting their assumptions that I was "selling" something, even though it was completely unjustified... so I promptly removed my info, partly for that reason so nobody would suspect otherwise. After awhile I realized that I was quickly under attack by a certain few and on further investigation I found that those same people belittled and degraded other forum members, many themselves had scoliosis. I was not about to let you lunatics defame my character with your garbage and nonsense. I had no problem revealing myself until that crap started... so spare me! As far as my professionalism, you have no idea what you're talking about....... .

As far anything else you wish to share with me on this... let me say a few final things to you.
1) I have always answered peoples questions directly... I don't avoid them as others do mine.
2) Hardly anyone can answer a single serious question I ask them, usually following their name calling and insults... I still have the respect to not name call back and get back on topic by trying to further a dialogue... but most people skirt around my questions/points and come right back with an insult again. I've asked some pretty relevant and important questions here I think and if you or any others can't answer them, or feel insecure by them... then maybe it means you should keep doing your talented "searching on the internet". I'm just coming with a different perspective, give it a try and you might actually gain something from it for your own good.
3) I am NOT promoting myself... Where have I done that????

What did I do to you csbaby??? And since when was this a forum exclusively for spinecor, surgery and studies???? If people can suggest and even post FLYERS on Yoga and scoliosis, then I feel perfectly able to share my perspective on things. You can't argue with that. And if you people stop jumping on my back we wouldn't be having these negative dialogues... because I'm NOT the one who begins insulting people.

cherylplinder
06-23-2007, 09:29 PM
In your fantasy world..................................

structural75
06-24-2007, 09:10 AM
csbaby,
see my point... ?

cherylplinder
06-24-2007, 12:32 PM
Again, if the PhD's in your profession are having success in their treatments of scoliosis, they sould collect their data and publish. Initial results don't take 10 or 15 years. You can see results in the treatment of adolescent, juvenile and infantile scoliosis in a short amount of time because the scoliotic curve either deteriorates, improves, or stabilizes. These kids are growing and you see one or the other rapidly.

You also make claims of reversal of adult curves. This should be easy to document and publish. Why is this information not documented and published?

My questions did not refer to published studies. I fully understand that you can point to NO PUBLISHED studies.

What parameters are YOU measuring and documenting? What are your controls? How many patients are in your study? If you and/or your colleagues are not currently collecting and recording data for a published study, why not?

Any valid therapy can stand up to the rigorous guidelines use for a controlled study.

cherylplinder
06-24-2007, 12:34 PM
Please quote and answer each one of my questions separately, as I would like to fully understand the research you are involved in.

structural75
06-24-2007, 03:07 PM
It seems as though you're completely unwilling to see another perspective on things, despite the reality that it does exist throughout the medical community and practices and that I've made a valid point for it.

I've already stated there are no formal studies on my profession and scoliosis... What else do you want me say? Yes, I keep records of every case... No they are not published, hasn't that already been established and agreed upon by all of us? Who are you to say what I should do with my time... and findings?

Are you systematically collecting verifiable data and recording it? Are you then figuring the statistics on your data?That is otherwise known as a STUDY! And I already conceeded that there were NO STUDIES!!! Nor am I conducting one!!! How many times are you going to ask the same question? And I'm concerned about the well being of each individual, I have no interest in making my patients "statistics". Although I value studies to a degree, and see their importance... I also think that there's a catch 22 in that when people see a study with certain results they are often led to believe it will work for everyone... which creates a very strong sense of hope that is later shattered for many people.

At this point I have no problem offering adjunctive treatment to those it is appropriate for and who are seeking it out. I don't make any promises and nobody who comes into my office has a sense of false hope... because they know that it is uncertain, but they also know that their bracing is uncertain as well, despite the studies. And in fact, most of the people who come to see me do so because the bracing and other more conventional and 'approved' methods are FAILING them! Which gives them two choices: 1) Do nothing more and watch the situation get worse until possible surgery or 2) Try the most logical "alternative/complimentary" approach available to them despite the lack of studies or awareness on it.

If that's not for you, fine... ignore it. But unless YOU have a better answer for these people then I'd appreciate it if you let it go. Their Drs certainly don't have any other solutions other than surgery eventually.

And if others can advertise, promote and share experiences on other non-surgical adjunctive approaches on this forum without your critical scrutiny, then I'm entitled to the same... especially when I KNOW it to be more effective then all of them combined.

It seems more like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing rather than taking even a brief moment to consider what I've said. Apperantly if it doesn't come out of Dr Coillards mouth, it is absolutely worthless to you. Which implies that no other Doctor in the world can possibly have anything to say about this condition.(including some of the M.D.s that are in my profession and the M.D.s that utilize it for themselves and refer their patients to it.)

Dr. Irene Grant is an Internal Medicine and Infectious Disease Specialist in New York City. She is currently on the teaching faculty at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at New York Medical College.
She had a very bad whiplash injury when she was a child, which created problems in her neck, similar to scoliosis. An Osteopath referred her to Structural Integration. Irene says, "After ten sessions I noticed that my posture improved, my chronic neck pain was significantly relieved, and I had much more energy. Further treatments brought progressive freedom. I experienced major changes. The most amazing thing is that I am now pain free."
Irene has been receiving Structural Integration sessions now weekly, for the past two and a half years. "I am very impressed with Structural Integration and have referred a lot of patients to Structural Integration, including Scoliosis patients. Structural Integration is a wonderful method that can rehabilitate and reverse injuries."Maybe you should report this Dr to the board.... she might be harming people. :rolleyes:

p.s.-I've stated many, many times before that you'll see improvement with the work in VERY short time... within the first few weeks... if you don't see an improvement/change then you discontinue. In fact, it will show its effect, if it can in each particular case, much faster than bracing, ...but would be a wonderful adjunct to the bracing nonetheless.

cherylplinder
06-24-2007, 03:16 PM
Again, if the PhD's in your profession are having success in their treatments of scoliosis, they sould collect their data and publish. Initial results don't take 10 or 15 years. You can see results in the treatment of adolescent, juvenile and infantile scoliosis in a short amount of time because the scoliotic curve either deteriorates, improves, or stabilizes. These kids are growing and you see one or the other rapidly.

You also make claims of reversal of adult curves. This should be easy to document and publish. Why is this information not documented and published?

My questions did not refer to published studies. I fully understand that you can point to NO PUBLISHED studies.

If you and/or your colleagues are not currently collecting and recording data for a published study, why not?

Any valid therapy can stand up to the rigorous guidelines used for a controlled study.

You didn't answer my question. You appear to be evading the question. Why are none of your colleagues publishing?

Again, if the PhD's in your profession are having success in the treament of scoliosis, they should collect their data and stats and publish.

cherylplinder
06-24-2007, 03:20 PM
Please answer the question.

Bish
06-24-2007, 04:35 PM
Structural, I had to jump in and intervene here. I kinda have to laugh at your suggestion that you are not contradicting yourself! A while ago I posted about my experience with the clear institute. You then posted immediately after and expressed your condescending thoughts about how further education would save folks like me from getting sucked into these crazy treatment methods. I forget your wording but the jist of it was that chiropractors cannot help scoliosis. Now I happen to be with you on that! The reason I had to laugh is that in a later unrelated post you produced a case study backing your thoughts on SI. The interesting thing to me was that the SI guy was working with a chiropractor to gain the results suggested in the case study? It's too bad that SI guy didn't have further education because he would have then realized how useless it would be to work in collaboration with a chiroprator! He may have had even better results without the chiro. Or....... he may have had no results at all because it was actually the chiro that inspired the changes.

Also I have to laugh at this statement I have heard you use a few times now, about not wanting to produce evidence or studies because you don't want to give false hope to those for whom the treatment does not work.
I am sorry dude, that is totally ridiculous and hugely condescending.
I have a new invention I just came up with this morning to cure scoliosis called a scolioliminator. It's made from two popsicle sticks and a rubber band. I don't think it is a good idea for me to provide evidence It can work on the 95% of people I treat because I don't want to dissapoint the misfortunate 5%. At times it seems you think you are dealing with a bunch of mentally challenged kindergarden students. I think that is what frosts peoples arse.

Now funnily enough I personally don't mind having you around on this forum because I think some of us need a bit of a challenge to our beleif sytem and some of the reading makes for a good laugh. I think some of your THEORIES on scoliosis should be considered . But unless we can back them up, maybe we should just leave them as theories in regards to the treatment of scoliosis and try to drop the condescendance towards those who have not yet seen "your light". I am sure as you say that your beliefs in SI are based on seeing reults in your patients and this is why you are so passionate about it. I don't understand why you can't accept that other people would want to see these results as well.
All the best, Bish

P.S. I have recently completed my second session with a certified rolfer in my area. Will post my thoughts soon!

Bish
06-24-2007, 04:49 PM
Structural, I forgot to mention its also too bad that the medical sytem is not using my new invention in collaboration with documented forms of treatment like bracing. Imagine the results they could see then!
Bish

structural75
06-24-2007, 05:41 PM
bish-

The interesting thing to me was that the SI guy was working with a chiropractor to gain the results suggested in the case study? It's too bad that SI guy didn't have further education because he would have then realized how useless it would be to work in collaboration with a chiroprator! He may have had even better results without the chiro. Or....... he may have had no results at all because it was actually the chiro that inspired the changes.
You may not have read it very carefully... it was I believe 9 times that the chiro adjusted her in a period of three years. For the purpose of - "High velocity thrusting procedures were needed to help mobilize those fibrotic and calcified joint capsules". From a professional standpoint, it sounds like an appropriate use of chiropractics! Most chiros would see you 9 times before the first month was up... Give me a break Bish... what's really your point? I don't believe it's black and white as you like to think it is, but many of you can''t seem to cope well with the grey... understandable... .

Also I have to laugh at this statement I have heard you use a few times now, about not wanting to produce evidence or studies because you don't want to give false hope to those for whom the treatment does not work.As I've said many times before, I support studies and hope very much to see them someday soon on SI and scoliosis. My profession is NOT afraid of the scientific process as I've pointed... are you reading everything Bish? Or just the parts that fit into your neat arguments? I never ever stated that I do not want to produce evidence... quote me on that one Bish, would ya. My comment about the false hope was to point out to all of you astute 'fans' of mine that your on my case about "false hope" (even though I don't promise things to people???) because there are no studies, but you'd be on my case as well if there were studies and someone tried it and it proved less than anticipated for that individual. You'd be willing to scrutinize the failure rate more quickly on my profession than you do on bracing... that was my point... but I am NOT opposed to having studies done formally... .


I have a new invention I just came up with this morning to cure scoliosis called a scolioliminator. It's made from two popsicle sticks and a rubber band. I don't think it is a good idea for me to provide evidence It can work on the 95% of people I treat because I don't want to dissapoint the misfortunate 5%. At times it seems you think you are dealing with a bunch of mentally challenged kindergarden students. I think that is what frosts peoples arse.As I said, that was not my point... but thanks for the eloquent analogy. Also, maybe it wouldn't seem that way to you and others if people would actually have a dialogue regarding even one point/idea/question I ask. Are you telling me that I can't raise legitimate questions for others? And they don't have to answer them but I certainly must?

Now funnily enough I personally don't mind having you around on this forum because I think some of us need a bit of a challenge to our beleif sytem and some of the reading makes for a good laugh. I think some of your THEORIES on scoliosis should be considered . But unless we can back them up, maybe we should just leave them as theories in regards to the treatment of scoliosis and try to drop the condescendance towards those who have not yet seen "your light". I am sure as you say that your beliefs in SI are based on seeing reults in your patients and this is why you are so passionate about it. I don't understand why you can't accept that other people would want to see these results as well.I'm glad you find it humorous Bish... I understand the desire for studies... I really do and I'd like them myself as well. But my main point has been that not one of you out there can assert that just because no large formal study exists the work is not already effective. Plain and simple. Theories... "Backing them up" isn't solely accomplished through studies Bish... I think we all know that. As much as you may not like 'clinical evidence', it is very much a reality and can not be dismissed due to a lack of a study.

As for my "condescendance" towards others... I think you know that I have no intention of talking down to people or insulting their intelligence. But I have had absolutely no choice but to defend myself, rather passionately and with intensity at times following their insulting remarks. I have put forth many initial posts on this forum that were kind, sincere and respectful... but it gets 'ugly' when someone jumps on my back and refuses to hear my side as well. And that is almost always the case... nobody is willing to actually HEAR and reflect on what I'm saying.. that just respond with the same remarks over and over.

And I do absolutely understand why these folks would want to see the results... But I'm sorry I can't give you that info personally. My patients would NOT appreciate me posting their personal info all over the internet, even if the cause were good. And again, if I posted clinical info/pitcures of a few patients for you to see I'd have everyone coming down on me saying that "a few isn't good enough"... Isn't that the truth Bish?

structural75
06-24-2007, 06:02 PM
You also make claims of reversal of adult curves.Let's be clear instead of making it sound as though I'm making absolute gaurantees... Yes, it has been effective at reducing adult curvatures to varying extents... but only in my experience prior to the age of 30. Bony deformation is usually too substantial beyond that.


You didn't answer my question. You appear to be evading the question. Why are none of your colleagues publishing?I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY AREN'T PUBLISHING! As for me... I simply don't have the time to get into something of that nature... scoliosis is not the only thing I work with Cheryl. Asking me why they are not publishing is like me asking you 'why Dr. Coillard doesn't utilize or support any other methods with her brace, including Osteopathy or otherwise.' How are you supposed to answer that question? However, I do see why you're asking about my colleagues, and I'm curious too now that you mention it... just as I would hope you could understand why I might ask Dr. Coillard the question I presented.

Can we see each others points here?

structural75
06-24-2007, 06:08 PM
Bish,

Structural, I forgot to mention its also too bad that the medical sytem is not using my new invention in collaboration with documented forms of treatment like bracing. Imagine the results they could see then!It's unfortunate that you feel rubber bands and popsicle stickes are going to help... you might want to re-work the baseline premise if you hope to be taken seriously. ;)

p.s. - Is there something specific about my "theory" that doesn't hold water for you? I'm genuinely curious... Also, I think it's only considered a "theory" if it actually hasn't been applied and successfull in its attempt (regardless of whether it occurred in a clinical setting or a study). Once a theory is 'tested' and applied it is no longer a theory but a reality, right... ? (even though it may not be 100%, etc...)

cherylplinder
06-24-2007, 06:21 PM
[QUOTE=structural75]bish-
Theories... "Backing them up" isn't solely accomplished through studies Bish... I think we all know that. As much as you may not like 'clinical evidence', it is very much a reality and can not be dismissed due to a lack of a study.

Structural,

Backing up theories is ABSOLUTELY accomplished by studies. That is the ONLY way a theory can be proven or disproven. Clinical evidence is collected, analyzed, and presented to determine if the evidence supports the theory. There is no other way. This process is presented in kindergarten with their science projects. That is not meant as a slam. It is simply a fact.

Bish
06-24-2007, 06:23 PM
I am not gonna argue with you. You seem to have a way of skirting around everything. You are one of those people who is always right regardless of what everyone else says.
Don't you think a few results would be better than none? Sure somebody might have something to say about the results not being significant enough, but so what? It would lend some credibility to your plight. ( which I understand you don't care what people think, I know).
Also the whole patient confidentiality thing is another copout. If I was your patient and you made significant changes I would be asking your permission to praise your existance. I am not kidding. You are telling me, you ask patient x, whom you have treated and changed their life, if you can tell the world about what you have done to save others from experiencing the same pain, they are going to say no? How about you suggest you don't use their name, face? Have it verified by their radiologist/doctor. I am not sure if I ever mentioned, but I asked my radiologist if he has ever seen an adult seek treatment for scoliosis and display a reduced curve in a follow up xray. He says no. Not that he has seen every xray in the world of course but it kinda says it must be very rare. I would tend to think if you can reduce curves, the medical system would be coming to you, saying "Holy cow, how did you do that?". If you had a radiologist verify by his own xrays that you reduced a curve I personally would be hugely impressed.
I am a believer that non traditional treatments such as SI may eventually be the answer or part of the solution. I guess that is why I try them, so I don't think you can lump me into the category of disagreeing with you on the premise that I am simply not willing to buy into non - medical style treatments. Bish

cherylplinder
06-24-2007, 06:35 PM
I absolutely think it is reckless for you to recommend that a patient go against the advice of their world renown physician.
I think it is bizarre. I think it takes a tremendous ego.
Especially if that patient is already having phenomenal success with the current treatment.
It might be different if the patient were a treatment failure.
Again, what are your credentials to make such a recommendation?
I won't let you by with that.
You have slammed and critiqued Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard on this thread, stating that "of course they use their hands... to hold a scalpel." Implying that they would withold any therapy that would benefit their patients, insults their integrity. Calling them arrogant and ignorant is very insulting. I call that bad form.
No!
I don't see your point at all.

structural75
06-24-2007, 07:22 PM
Cheryl,
Did I answer your questions? ... So why do you insist on avoiding mine? As I pointed out earlier, Doctors everywhere are practicing outside the scientific method by prescribing drugs to people without studies or tests to show there efficacy/potential "harm" for 'other' conditions. Are you telling me that's OK but my suggestions for ADJUNCT treatment is not?

I absolutely think it is reckless for you to recommend that a patient go against the advice of their world renown physician. WHEN DID I SUGGEST GOING AGAINST THEIR ADVICE? When did I start prescribing treatments here???? I suggested asking them WHY they gave that advice... and I still haven't heard an answer to that from Dr. Coillard. Have you? Don't try and blow this any more out of proportion than it already is Cheryl! This has nothing to do with egos... I'm anonymous, remember? How does anonymity conatain ego?



You have slammed and critiqued Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard on this thread, stating that "of course they use their hands... to hold a scalpel." Implying that they would withold any therapy that would benefit their patients, insults their integrity. Calling them arrogant and ignorant is very insulting. I call that bad form. I NEVER slammed them, those are your words... I questioned why they came to that decision... There is NOTHING WRONG with questioning things... That is the only way people can move forward in the treatment of this condition. And that is precisely what your Dr. did which resulted in creating a soft brace. She obviously questioned the previously 'accepted' use of the rigid braces capabilities and limitations. Where is the probl;em with wanting to know why?

The comment about the scalpel was a mere point in fact.. they don't do manipulative therapy nor are they trained in it, do they? Was I really "implying" that they withold therapies... or isn't that just a fact... for better or worse. Do you personally know why they don't combine any other treatment whatsoever with their brace? Do you know why they don't bother to treat the cause of the scoliosis, just the symptom? Do you know why they believe that forcing the curve back is the only thing that needs to be done? Do you know why some cases fail and some succeed utilizing the same method? Do you think it might be that we're missing something by simply relying on force to get these curves straightened, slowed or reduced? Why does it seem so absurd to you that a more well-rounded approach might exist?

I've answered your questions, now please answer mine to at least show that you've been able to consider both perspectives. Otherwise it seems that your just out to "slam" me and that's just "bad form".

p.s. - I think it's "reckless" for you to assume and assert that a brace of any kind is actually addressing the source of the problem at hand and that your Physicians are the only reputable ones around. It's a great start, but it will continue to show its limitations and such until we have a change in perspective and strategy on this.

structural75
06-24-2007, 07:37 PM
Backing up theories is ABSOLUTELY accomplished by studies. That is the ONLY way a theory can be proven or disproven. Clinical evidence is collected, analyzed, and presented to determine if the evidence supports the theory. There is no other way. This process is presented in kindergarten with their science projects. That is not meant as a slam. It is simply a fact.You're skipping over the obvious... "clinical evidence" is the very thing that proves or disproves the theory... the presentation is irrelevant. You don't need to put that "evidence" and analysis into a formal study for it to prove/disprove the theory. Do you see what I'm saying?

Sounded like a slam to me... You know I'd love to actually have an intelligent anatomically, biomechanically and physiologically based discussion on this but I realize that you're not capable/qualified for that. It would help create an understanding of what we're talking about here. That wasn't meant to be a slam either, but it's hard to put it any other way.

You rely on studies because you're not educated about biomechanics and such to the degree that you could determine for yourself what is sound and logical and what is not. I am educated enough to make that suggestion, I'm not superceeding anyones Dr's advice. People ask about approaches on this forum, generally because all of your "proven" methods have yielded little or no results for them. So what is the harm in suggesting something, regardless of studies? What would you suggest to them that they do?

p.s. - Calling your Drs. ignorant is not an insult... Definition: Ignorant - Unaware or uninformed. Calling your Dr. 'stupid' would be an insult.. which I do not believe to be the case.

structural75
06-24-2007, 07:44 PM
Bish,

You seem to have a way of skirting around everything. You are one of those people who is always right regardless of what everyone else says.My goodness... What have I skirted around this time? I've answered your questions... I've got how many of you coming at me on a regular basis and I'm doing my best to follow up on every comment/question. If I miss 'one', just let me know and I'll get right back to you.... .

I'm amazed that you are accussing me of skirting questions... Have you not read my posts? I've been asking countless questions and making comments/points that I was expecting replies to but I haven't heard much of a peep from any of you on them.

Consider ALL parites involved before making comments about me like that.. the same rings true for many others, if not much more so.

structural

cherylplinder
06-24-2007, 11:37 PM
[QUOTE=structural75]You're skipping over the obvious... "clinical evidence" is the very thing that proves or disproves the theory... the presentation is irrelevant. You don't need to put that "evidence" and analysis into a formal study for it to prove/disprove the theory. Do you see what I'm saying?


Absolutely the evidence has to be compiled and analyzed and statistics calculated to determine if it supports or disproves your theory. That is the only way for others to see your point. Do you see what I'm saying?

Otherwise it is just an unsubstantiated claim.

And that is what you are making on this forum, unsubstantiated claims.

Bish
06-25-2007, 12:05 AM
Structural,
The "skirting" was not in regards so much to the questions at hand but more to the fact that your perception of your responses is much different than everyone else sees it. You skirt around the tone at which you come off, suggesting that it was warranted or you had no intention of coming off in that fashion or you were being attacked. Anyways I am not gonna cry myself to sleep about it.

In regards to evidence, I am not suggesting a study is the only conclusive proof of success. Clinical evidence is a start but we don't even have that do we? Regarding scoliosis and SI of course. I notice we have downgraded a bit now to success in patients not exceeding 30 years old? Did I miss something (or selectively read your posts) in regards to SI and adult scoliosis. Does your "clinical evidence" suggest me at 35 yrs old would be wasting my time with SI in regards to any hope of a curve reduction?
As far as my belief in SI beyond scoliosis. I guess you would know better than me. I have not seen any startling clinical evidence pertaining to structural change, but nor have I actively looked. Are you aware of any tangible clincal evidence with SI for spondy (which I have I think 66 degrees) kyphosis, lordosis, sheurmans etc? I ask about these because change could be recognized on an xray.
Bish

structural75
06-25-2007, 06:32 AM
Bish,
A study was more recently performed at the Univ. of Maryland which showed/concluded a "significant reduction in swayback(lordosis of the lumbar spine)" as well as "pelvic inclination", etc.. It was a legitimate study... You can do the leg work if you want your hands on the details of it.

Clinical evidence is a start but we don't even have that do we?Says who? Just because I can't sit here and order x-rays and such from coleagues and post them on the internet means that there's no clinical evidence? If you want it so badly then just go and search it out yourself. But please stop barading me about it... if you don't like what I have to say then so be it... .

There was another study performed about 30 years ago on children which also concluded its effectiveness on scoliosis among other things. You can look into that as well if you like. I don't know what else to tell you.

If you think I'm a lier, which obviously you do, then that's not my problem. If you think I'm "downgrading" things, that's not my problem either. The only thing I've said about reduction oof adult curves is that it has been effective to some degree in some individuals... but it becomes progressively more difficult to liberate beyond the mid twenties or so due to greater bony deformation. Aren't I, and haven't I been honest about that? My recommendation to you was primarily for your pain issues, isn't that so? You stated you were in a lot of pain and couldn't seem to find anything to resolve or diminish it. Hope you see some benefit.

As far as my belief in SI beyond scoliosis. I guess you would know better than me. I have not seen any startling clinical evidence pertaining to structural change, but nor have I actively lookedTake a look, there are studies demonstrating its ability and effectiveness at creating structural changes beyond scoliosis... that is precisely what the work is known for.

structural75
06-25-2007, 06:33 AM
Cheryl,
Not unlike your unsubstantiated claims that it doesn't/can't have an effect.

cherylplinder
06-25-2007, 01:30 PM
How long has SI been used?

structural75
06-25-2007, 01:46 PM
For about 50 - 60 years. More prominantly over the past 35 years or so.

cherylplinder
06-25-2007, 03:26 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................Then the lack of published studies makes even less sense to me. I thought maybe it was a new field of pracitice.

structural75
06-25-2007, 07:47 PM
Hmmmmmm..... How did I know that response was coming? I'm sorry it doesn't meet your standards. SI was not developed as a means to treat scoliosis... the brace was. However, SI was developed to address a variety of musculoskeletal dysfunctions utilizing a premise containing principles and concepts that were not seen at the time, and even now for that matter. It also specifically targeted its effect on a substance known as fascia, which at the time was virtually ignored by the medical community and seen as nothing more than 'packing material' for the important stuff. Dr. Rolf, working as a biochemist found this to not be the reality and thus focused her efforts on discovering more about this substance and developed a method of working with it and exposed the importance of gravity in the whole equation. We now know ('we' being scientists, M.D.s, researchers, etc) that fascia plays a significant role in human development, function, dysfunction and disease. It posesses communicative properties that exist both in combination with and seperate from the nervous system. It also has redefined our knowledge and portrayal of cellular structure and function.

If you think I'm nuts about this then check it out for yourself... http://fascia2007.com/

There are a wide array of applications for its use and has proven this fact in numerous studies. Yes, they do exist on a variety of other topics.... just not yet performed on the one you're personally interested in. But that's not to say that it isn't effective at times for it, or at least for the painful conditions associated with scoliosis. The work has shown itself effective in many instances for many conditions without formal studies as well. I don't mind if you don't care for things that don't have studies to back them up, but to make the assumption that it's worthless is a bit far fetched and completely unsubstantiated. You're just choosing not to look at the information I provided because you don't want to admit that it is willing to undergo scientific scrutiny, and it is a legitimate profession that has achieved some pretty astonishing results with people. You just want to discredit me and SI... Why, I don't know... ???

Even today, many Doctors don't pay much attention to, nor do they know anything about fascia and its properties/importance/role. Their ignorance on the topic does not mean that it isn't important, just that they are busy with other things and don't have the time, interest or awareness to find out. Just like the SI community may not have a scoliosis study on the top of its list of priorities.

Are there studies to back up regular PT/Physiotherapy, Yoga ,Pilates, gymnastics, swimming, etc. as viable, effective and safe methods of adjunct treatments or exercise? Then why are they often promoted for use?

A scoliosis surgeon recently told one of my clients with scoliosis to do Pilates... How can he offer such advice without studies that deem it safe and effective?

structural75
06-25-2007, 07:52 PM
Are you really trying to simply discredit this profession... despite the fact that there are M.D.s practicing it as well?

www.rolfdoc.com

structural75
06-25-2007, 07:57 PM
Cheryl,

Hold the phone....... !

There is a list of Spinecor providers on the spinecorporation.com wesite. I'll see if I can copy and post. I would have sworn Dr. Coillard told me they were having some success with it in adult patients to treat pain, but she may not have meant at their clinic, because someone contacted them , I think.Are you suggesting something that hasn't been proven with studies???? The Drs said they were "having some success with it" and that is suffice... unvelievable!

If I remember correctly you folks were bashing some chiropractors in NYC for using the spinecor on adults for pain management without any studies. Complete hypocracy!

Bish,

I expected more from you on this one... where's your red flag?

structural75
06-25-2007, 08:38 PM
I found this interesting... Someone recently posted a comment about 'alternative' therapies... here's what they said: ("Hellerwork" is a method of structural integration created by Joseph Heller who was trained by Dr. Ida Rolf in the early seventies, although it is refered to as "massage", it is not massage, but it tends to be easy for people to relate by calling it such I find)

My son has congenital scoliosis but rare pain. For almost 7 years, I tried many "alternative" manipulative treatments for him, including chiropractic, craniosacral massage, other types of massage, acupuncture... All of it was to help with muscle strengthening, balancing, flexibility, etc. None of it prevented his spinal curvature from increasing. We've spent lots of money, time & energy on all the appointments & he is still getting surgery. The only treatment that he ever felt a noticeable difference from was the Hellerwork massage. We still get those for him since his back gets achy after he stopped wearing his (also apparently useless) brace.

cherylplinder
06-25-2007, 11:13 PM
Cheryl,

Hold the phone....... !
Are you suggesting something that hasn't been proven with studies???? The Drs said they were "having some success with it" and that is suffice... unvelievable!

If I remember correctly you folks were bashing some chiropractors in NYC for using the spinecor on adults for pain management without any studies. Complete hypocracy!

Bish,

I expected more from you on this one... where's your red flag?

It hasn't been done for 50 or 60 years, not even 35 years, your point?............................................ ...............

If you looked back at my posts about Rachel, you will see that she was quite debilitated by pain. The brace completely relieved her pain. It isn't that much of a stretch to apply it to adults. It may be a new application for the brace. I am SURE studies will be done to determine if that is a valid application of this therapy!

But Structural, I will be completely honest with you. I was intrigued by the idea of SI. That is why I asked Celia if Dr. Coillard expounded on her answer. But after my conversation with you, I think it is probably a ripoff. I don't see how any legitimate therapy can be around for 35 or 50 or 60 years with the success you claim, and have absolutely NO formal studies done. It really discredits your profession. No wonder Dr. Coillard said "No way..." No sane physician is going to DIRECT a patient into quackery or what MIGHT be that. Without studies, she can't tell what it might do.

It would be lovely to have something else to address the problems. Rachel is only corrected to 20 degrees or so.


Go rant somewhere else.

Bish
06-26-2007, 12:43 AM
Cheryl,

Structural,
Bish,

I expected more from you on this one... where's your red flag?

I didn't say I was buying spinecore hook line and sinker. I can hardly discredit something without researching it first.Maybe they will be able to provide some evidence of success, since that is their proffession . Plus I did mention in regards to SI that even clinical evidence would be of value.( I currently have my team of scientists working on finding that evidence for SI since you are not able to provide it). I did not say a study was the only evidence of a treatments success. Plus I am currently trying SI. That may suggest i think it is worth a shot, don't you? Or are we still on this "out to get you" thing.
Bish

structural75
06-26-2007, 12:53 AM
Cheryl,
With all due respect... you'll have to do better than that to dig yourself out of that hole of hypocracy. Talk about SKIRTING around the issues!!!!!!!!
I don't see how any legitimate therapy can be around for 35 or 50 or 60 years with the success you claim, and have absolutely NO formal studies done. It really discredits your profession. No wonder Dr. Coillard said "No way..." No sane physician is going to DIRECT a patient into quackery or what MIGHT be that. Without studies, she can't tell what it might do.Absolutely NO studies done... I thought we went over this Cheryl... there may be no studies done on scoliosis (that I've yet to find) but there HAVE been studies done on SI in regards to other conditions and its effective at altering HUMAN STRUCTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah, you're right..... despite the other studies done on SI to confirm its ability to change human structure, it's just "quackery"...... ????

"Without studies, she can't tell what it might do" .......Are you talking about the brace for adult use?????? ;)


If you looked back at my posts about Rachel, you will see that she was quite debilitated by pain. The brace completely relieved her pain. It isn't that much of a stretch to apply it to adults. It may be a new application for the brace. I am SURE studies will be done to determine if that is a valid application of this therapy!So I suppose this logic doesn't apply for me, but it suits you quite well now? Application of the brace from children to adults is similiar???? Really? Can you explain why it "isn't that much of a stretch"? And I suppose if your "SURE", then everything is legit.

I didn't know that your profession had been around that long. It was a sincere question. I did wonder. New therapies haven't have much time for clinical studies.I haven't checked.After all this BS, you haven't once bothered to follow up any of the links I've posted on the work, or taken a moment to educate yourself a little on the topic of conversation before unloading your babbling rants? Lord knows you spend inordinate amounts of time searching for things to debunk my suggestions... so I'm certain you've got the time.

structural75
06-26-2007, 01:03 AM
Plus I did mention in regards to SI that even clinical evidence would be of value.( I currently have my team of scientists working on finding that evidence for SI since you are not able to provide it).Good for you. Am I not able or not willing to spend the time for this cause on this forum? Wouldn't it appear as if I were really "selling" something if I went through all that time and trouble?

I find you're selective criticism and sarcasm quite intriguing... . Will you be judging SIs relevance/effective for children based on your 'adult' experience as well?

p.s. - I noticed you still haven't addressed my points in recent posts??? You accuse me of skirting aroound things... then your buddy does it quite blatantly and I hear not a peep from you about it... hmmmmm....... makes me wonder about you and your "team of scientists".??? Biased scrutiny? Sounds ike the results of your search may be tainted/skewed from the start.

cherylplinder
06-26-2007, 08:09 AM
There was another study performed about 30 years ago on children which also concluded its effectiveness on scoliosis among other things. You can look into that as well if you like. I don't know what else to tell you.

I've already stated there are no formal studies on my profession and scoliosis...


I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY AREN'T PUBLISHING! How are you supposed to answer that question? However, I do see why you're asking about my colleagues, and I'm curious too now that you mention it...




Doesn't appear to be a new application to me.

structural75
06-26-2007, 08:21 AM
Doesn't appear to be a new application to me.
Since when did I say that it was a "new" application? What are trying to do now?

Do you care to respond to anything I've asked or pointed out? Or are you going to continue to ignore my replies and just continue to try to discredit me/SI?

I'm tired of these ruthless and senseless attempts of yours... I've given you a response to pretty much everything you've asked.... why can't you do the same?

Are you above reproach?

cherylplinder
06-26-2007, 10:13 AM
Quote Cheryl:
If you looked back at my posts about Rachel, you will see that she was quite debilitated by pain. The brace completely relieved her pain. It isn't that much of a stretch to apply it to adults. It may be a new application for the brace. I am SURE studies will be done to determine if that is a valid application of this therapy!
Quote Structural: So I suppose this logic doesn't apply for me, but it suits you quite well now?
Quote Structural: Since when did I say that it was a "new" application? What are trying to do now?

YOU indicated that my logic about a new application for the Spinecor should apply to your case.

Bish
06-26-2007, 11:00 AM
Good for you. Am I not able or not willing to spend the time for this cause on this forum? Wouldn't it appear as if I were really "selling" something if I went through all that time and trouble?

I find you're selective criticism and sarcasm quite intriguing... . Will you be judging SIs relevance/effective for children based on your 'adult' experience as well?

p.s. - I noticed you still haven't addressed my points in recent posts??? You accuse me of skirting aroound things... then your buddy does it quite blatantly and I hear not a peep from you about it... hmmmmm....... makes me wonder about you and your "team of scientists".??? Biased scrutiny? Sounds ike the results of your search may be tainted/skewed from the start.

Well, not really. It would look like you were attempting to back up your points. I never accused you of selling anything.
I will be the first to admit I would not be qualified to make such judgements about SI and kids. Which I can't imagine the same statement ever being released from your lips. I think you know as we have had similar discussions before, the only thing I can do is judge the most logical sounding approaches in an attempt to reconcile the pain I am riddled with every day.

In regards to your P.S
What? You think I am a liar? I can't account for everyone elses statements around here structural. Sorry, what issues am I skirting?
Bish

structural75
06-26-2007, 11:20 AM
Cheryl,


Quote Cheryl:
If you looked back at my posts about Rachel, you will see that she was quite debilitated by pain. The brace completely relieved her pain. It isn't that much of a stretch to apply it to adults. It may be a new application for the brace. I am SURE studies will be done to determine if that is a valid application of this therapy!
Quote Structural: So I suppose this logic doesn't apply for me, but it suits you quite well now?
Quote Structural: Since when did I say that it was a "new" application? What are trying to do now?
I'm sorry your daughter was in so much pain, ...so why is it so hard for you to accept or consider that SI (Which is most well known for its high rate of success in treating chronic pain that 'conventional' methods have little or no success with.) might be relevant here as well? Afterall, treating pain with a brace may not be a bad idea for some, at least in part. But it is a shotgun approach... What's the harm in a far more precise approach as well?

Would you Please just respond to this point and stop rephrasing it... this is frustrating. You can't put someone through all this strict scrutiny and then exempt yourself from it.

YOU indicated that my logic about a new application for the Spinecor should apply to your case.In all seriousness Cheryl, why not? Do you have special privileges as a non-professional to make that assumption? Is your advice not subject to the same scrutiny that I am? The spinecor was designed and intended specifically to reduce, stabilize or slow the progression in children, not as a form of pain management in adults. I do think it is probably useful for some adults, in fact I'm sure it has already proven itself useful to some, even though there is no study to show it. Would you agree? It sounds like that is what you're saying.

So why would something as anatomically and physiologically sound as SI not be another viable option despite the lack of studies, which I'm SURE you'll see someday? Is there a sound anatomical/physiological reason why you seem to think it's not a reasonable adjunctive option? I still haven't heard why it is unreasonable to you, besides the lack of studies... which doesn't seem to bother you about the proposed completely different use of the spinecor brace in adults. (SI has been applied to scoliosis since its conception 50+ years ago by its founder Dr. Ida Rolf. She began her inquiry into developing this work to help her son who had scoliosis and as a research scientist/biochemist she did not feel that the health care system at the time offered adequate treatment options,... which were essentially crude braces and the scroth method of exercise/pt.)

SI has clearly shown that it is willing and able to go under scientific scrutiny, as it has for other conditions. Simply because it hasn't done that for scoliosis doesn't mean that the profession is trying to 'avoid' something or 'scam' people... That is your own personal belief, probably based on legitimate fears stemming from other disciplines. However what you don't see are SI practitioners opening 'scoliosis treatment centers' and trying to make a business out of it like some of the other professions are doing... with questionable results. We do our work with a variety of conditions just as PT does its work with a variety... i.e.-Scroth method of Physical Therapy. It is a specialized field of PT just as there are practitioners of SI who have developed and interest and expertise in working with scoliosis. I will tell you with honesty, you can't go to just any SI practitioner and expect they will have the experience necessary to create the most effective potential change. That is why I have offered to help people find experienced and knowledgable practitioners for their scoliosis if interested.

structural75
06-26-2007, 11:31 AM
Dave,

I will be the first to admit I would not be qualified to make such judgements about SI and kids. Which I can't imagine the same statement ever being released from your lips.I don't know to say Dave other than that is my professional experience. I have seen its effect in children... I'm sincerely sorry that I can't give you the 'proper' evidence to prove it to you.

I think you know as we have had similar discussions before, the only thing I can do is judge the most logical sounding approaches in an attempt to reconcile the pain I am riddled with every day.Did you take my recommendation on a practitioner? I'm just curious... no harm meant by that.

What? You think I am a liar? I can't account for everyone elses statements around here structural. Sorry, what issues am I skirting?I just found it interesting that when Cheryl suggested that the spinecor would be a good option because the Drs in Montreal 'heard' it had been effective for some that you didn't seem to apply the same harsh criticism of her opinion... despite the lack of studies. When I mention the use of SI for children or adults... you're all over me looking for proof.... essentially calling ME a liar.
You seem shocked that someone might be calling you a liar (which I wasn't, it had nothing to do with honesty, just biased scrutiny) yet you don't expect me to get upset when you all call me a liar! Maybe you can understand where my condescending tones come from at times. Rather than sling name calling around I'm trying to explain myself and clarify issues that get dragged through the mud... in the process I'm obviously frustrated and upset that people are viewing my intentions this way and my response subsequently can take on a condescending tone. Sorry, but I'm not going to lay down while you all trample over me.

p.s. - You mentioned this earlier and I thought I gave you some 'online' resource as at least one example. ??? Was this not good enough? Do you really think that the 9 chiropractic treatments over the course of three years is actually what caused all of its effect? Or can you consider that the three years of SI treratment is what changed this woman's spine?
http://erikdalton.com/articles.htm#Scoliosis:%20A%20Case%20Study

Plus I did mention in regards to SI that even clinical evidence would be of value.( I currently have my team of scientists working on finding that evidence for SI since you are not able to provide it).

structural75
06-26-2007, 11:52 AM
Maybe the naysayers would be interested in keeping a watch on the "Rolfing and Scoliosis" thread in the Non-Surgical section. I won't dare post there as it seems everywhere I go turns into a big debate and we lose sight of the original post.

This way you can read for yourselves what people think who have actually utilized it... for better or worse... I will submit to that possible reality ;) .

After all, 'evidence' also comes clearly from the mouths who have tried it.

structural75
06-26-2007, 06:05 PM
Cheryl, I just received a couple of edited/revised versions of one of your previous posts.... Now your changing your posts to fit the argument you put forth? And in the meantime trying to make me sound contradictory. Are you going to answer any of my questions or just manipulate your posts until you're out of the hole you dug?

At least have some integrity and stand behind your original thoughts.


If you looked back at my posts about Rachel, you will see that she was quite debilitated by pain. The brace completely relieved her pain. It isn't that much of a stretch to apply it to adults. It may be a new application for the brace. I am SURE studies will be done to determine if that is a valid application of this therapy!

But Structural, I will be completely honest with you. I was intrigued by the idea of SI. That is why I asked Celia if Dr. Coillard expounded on her answer. But after my conversation with you, I think it is probably a ripoff. I don't see how any legitimate therapy can be around for 35 or 50 or 60 years with the success you claim, and have absolutely NO formal studies done. It really discredits your profession. No wonder Dr. Coillard said "No way..." No sane physician is going to DIRECT a patient into quackery or what MIGHT be that. Without studies, she can't tell what it might do.

It would be lovely to have something else to address the problems. Rachel is only corrected to 20 degrees or so. "New" relative to what... ? It has been used by Drs other than yours for this prupose for at least a few years now... Long enough for a study, wouldn't you say? And why is it being used (with your support obviously) if it hasn't undergone the 'scientific' rigors of analysis? Isn't that what your asking of SI before it is suggested for use?

If you call what we had a conversation.... more like an absolute dismissal without doing your homework first.

Dr. Coillard said "No way" to OSTEOPATHIC MANIPULATION! Not SI! But I'm sure she'd say the same for SI, or ANY adjunct treatment... We won't know unless she herself gives a reason. ...That was the topic here and I was defending Ost. Man. as a legitimate profession as well.

And do you know just how many "sane Physicians" have actually referred people to SI? Quite a few... Did you not read the testimonial I posted earlier? ....And that includes the Physicians who practice this work as well.

structural75
06-26-2007, 06:58 PM
Maybe this would help you see it is not what you think it is.

Health Professionals

Larry Dossey, M.D., best-selling author: "There is one major reason to take Rolfing® seriously: it works. Not only can it dramatically change people's bodies, it can transform their lives as well. Rolfing is powerful stuff."

Jim Mongomery, MD, an orthopedic surgeon in Dallas, Texas, often refers his clients to Rolfing. "I send a variety of my clients to a Certified Advanced Rolfer, Nicholas French. People with shoulder and elbow problems, with scar tissue resulting from injury or surgery, chronic hamstring problems, low back and cervical spine problems. People that have had chronic problems that have not been helped by anything else. All those people can be helped with Rolfing."

Karlis Ullis, MD, (team physician for 1992 summer Olympics), Sports Medicine and Anti-Aging Medical Group in Santa Monica, CA: "Athletes always need help with chronic injuries, muscular strains and overuse. The Olympic athletes wouldn't have as many injuries if they had appropriate soft tissue therapy. Rolfing is valuable for athletes in high level competition to address the build up of scar tissue and disarrangement of myofascial tissue that occurs from training, competition and injury." Dr. Ullis has provided medical expertise to athletes at five Olympic games, including Lillehammer, Albertville, and Barcelona, in the fields of figure skating, cross country skiing, bobsleigh, biathlon, track and field and other sports.

Certified Advanced Rolfer and MD, Dr. Bret Nye, speaks about alternative/complementary medicine, a cost effective, alternative to surgery and drugs - "Demand for the services of health practitioners like Rolfers is growing as evidenced by the Nov. 98 JAMA estimate of $21.2 billion being spent for alternative medicine in 97. Integrative health care, is a new trend, that combines Western and complementary medicines to offer the best technological advances in health care. Health insurance companies are increasingly becoming interested in therapies like Rolfing not only as potential cost effective alternatives or complements to traditional modalities, but as opportunities to provide coverage for services that will distinguish them in an increasingly competitive market place of providers."

Others

Leon Fleisher, virtuoso concert pianist: "When a crippling hand injury ended his performing career, Peabody pianist, Leon Fleisher went down a different musical road. Thirty years later, he's turned up an unexpected corner (when he met Certified Advanced Rolfer, Tessy Brunghardt)...The (Rolfing) results were remarkable." John Hopkins magazine, 1995.

A 50 yr old scientist, and medical consultant for healthcare manufacturers, Jim Wright had planned to live with his shoulder, neck and back problems until his wife suggested Rolfing. The problems were allieviated and he sees his Rolfer once a year for a tune up.

Mary Elizabeth Nordstrom, President, Moore Vocal Arts, says, "I am over 60 years old and have advanced scoliosis which the Rolfing treatments have definitely begun to help. One of my friends who had not seen me for awhile remarked on my better posture without my telling her why.

cherylplinder
06-26-2007, 08:05 PM
Sounds lovely, still needs a scientific study. Personal testimonies can be very unreliable. I saw recently where the names changed on personal testimonies with each product, but the pictures stayed the same. Has to be better than that. Still doesn't address scoliosis.

structural75
06-26-2007, 08:35 PM
There is a list of Spinecor providers on the spinecorporation.com wesite. I'll see if I can copy and post. I would have sworn Dr. Coillard told me they were having some success with it in adult patients to treat pain, but she may not have meant at their clinic, because someone contacted them , I think.

Sounds lovely, still needs a scientific study. Personal testimonies can be very unreliable. ...Has to be better than that.
You said it best Cheryl... Glad you caught yourself on that one. ;)

p.s. - So you're telling me those are unreliable and fake testimonials? Wow, substantiate that please.

Also, other members of this forum have reported a positive experience with SI, are you calling them liars now too? Is your opinion on the spinecor braces effectiveness for addressing pain a 'reliable' source? Where are the studies showing its efficacy and safety in regards to adult use for pain management??? Oh, there are no studies on that as well... Once again I'll use your words: "Sounds lovely, still needs a scientific study. Personal testimonies can be very unreliable."

Do you even understand WHY the a brace can sometimes help reduce pain? I do..., but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

You continue to evade my questions and points Cheryl... It's not looking very good.

structural75
06-26-2007, 08:51 PM
Still dosn't address scoliosis
Maybe you missed this one...

Mary Elizabeth Nordstrom, President, Moore Vocal Arts, says, "I am over 60 years old and have advanced scoliosis which the Rolfing treatments have definitely begun to help. One of my friends who had not seen me for awhile remarked on my better posture without my telling her why.
And this one, a case study on a 13 year old girl with scoliosis...
http://erikdalton.com/articles.htm#Scoliosis:%20A%20Case%20Study
Or, maybe try this.....
http://www.massageandbodywork.com/Articles/OctNov2003/scoliosismanagement.html
Or this one again....

Dr. Irene Grant is an Internal Medicine and Infectious Disease Specialist in New York City. She is currently on the teaching faculty at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at New York Medical College.
She had a very bad whiplash injury when she was a child, which created problems in her neck, similar to scoliosis. An Osteopath referred her to Structural Integration. Irene says, "After ten sessions I noticed that my posture improved, my chronic neck pain was significantly relieved, and I had much more energy. Further treatments brought progressive freedom. I experienced major changes. The most amazing thing is that I am now pain free."
Irene has been receiving Structural Integration sessions now weekly, for the past two and a half years. "I am very impressed with Structural Integration and have referred a lot of patients to Structural Integration, including Scoliosis patients. Structural Integration is a wonderful method that can rehabilitate and reverse injuries."
Or this...

Project: Children’s Project; three year pilot study in Philadelphia, PA conducted by a group of Rolfers led by Robert Toporek, 1978; monograph “The Promise of Rolfing Children” reported on this study published in 1981. Each child’s photograph before Session 1 and after Session 10 and some two and three years later were shown. A summary of results gathered from interviewing the parents and Rolfer’s comments documented the changes.

Result: This pilot study with children demonstrated that:

A dramatic improvement in the children’s physical, psychological and behavioral patterns had occurred
Consistently parents reported the children had increased confidence, better verbal expression, more self-control and less destructive behavior.
Rolfing is an effective means to address conditions such as cerebral palsy and scoliosis.

Are you still going to claim that SI/Rolfing has no relevant application to scoliosis or the chronic pain(s) often associated with it?

structural75
06-26-2007, 09:05 PM
Okay, I think I just came up with a solution here... now it doesn't have any studies supporting it but 'some people' said they 'heard' it has worked for some. I think I can get your vote on this one too Cheryl, even without the studies... Here it is: Any time you're in pain, whatever the cause might be, just put on the spinecor brace. Voila! Problems solved! Trust me, I heard it from Dr. Coillard who heard it from someone else... very reliable sources. And even though it says nothing at all about what is causing the pain/problem... who cares anyway... its the spinecor brace created by Dr. Coillard! ;)

That's all I can come up with unless you can think of anything better... ?

structural75
06-26-2007, 09:50 PM
Another deleted post... what's going on... did you realize that it didn't answer any questions again and was simply meant to provoke me? Sorry, but I had to respond. This is almost like a dream... nothing seems to be making sense.. you say something, I point out the extreme hypocracy and you act as though there was no hypocracy whatsoever... do you have special privileges? I would expect more integrity from you given your tenacity on the matter.


Someone contacted them and asked if they were a brace provider for adults and
were told "No."............. Not ...........someone contacted them and gave a
testimonial that the brace worked for adult pain.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Sorry to burst my bubble.... what bubble is that may I ask?
I thought...."Personal testimonies can be very unreliable. ...Has to be better than that". ...
I actually think, as I said before, that testimonials are one of our greatest indicators. That's great that it helped with their pain... I don't doubt it.

So what was the problem with the testimonials that I posted? ...I forgot what you said... oh, it was, "Personal testimonies can be very unreliable. ...Has to be better than that". I think you bursted your own bubble because by your standards personal testimonies are "unreliable". So as "lovely" as that account was, "still needs a scientific study"... to quote you again.

p.s. - Lots of people have done the same with regards to SI & scoliosis. ..."Sorry to burst your bubble." ...and SI is a tad bit more specific in addressing the problem at hand... but if you want to believe a brace is somehow the miracle cure for everything, go ahead. Who's really the quack?

cherylplinder
06-26-2007, 11:09 PM
No Structural. It made a point of what you twisted in my post. You indicated that someone contacted them with a testimonial. That's not what I posted to Bish. I was telling him that they were not a provider for adults. Someone contacted them and asked.

But I decided to stop this conversation, so I deleted my post.

structural75
06-26-2007, 11:38 PM
Cheryl,
I don't believe I twisted anything whatsoever... I was being sarcastic... . My point was that you seem to think it's OK to recommend the spinecor brace for use in adults for treating pain, despite there not being any studies to support it... supposedly because it's not a "stretch". But you don't believe it's OK for me to suggest the use of SI/Rolfing to address pain in adults with scoliosis, or for use with anyone with a scoliosis for any reason, without studies. ...Hypocrisy plain and simple.

You can't sit there and drum up a multi-page debate with me on the relevance of SI and scoliosis because there are no formal studies.... and then turn around and recommend/suggest the possible use of the spinecor brace to treat pain associated with scoliosis in adults without studies to prove its efficacy/safety. That's absurd logic. If you're going to hold others to a certain standard then you have no choice but to hold yourself to it as well. If not, well then it doesn't matter what you think about SI or Osteopathy... You're talking out of both sides of your mouth, plain and simple.

cherylplinder
06-27-2007, 02:46 AM
I've responded to all your points numerous times with my opinion and your own facts. I am entitiled to that. I still think the same thing. I won't state it again.

structural75
06-27-2007, 09:42 AM
Cheryl,
Fine, if you say so. I must be missing an entire page of posts then.... :confused:

gerbo
06-27-2007, 04:27 PM
Is SI/ Rolfing the same as "Bowen" therapy?

(discussed "Bowen" with a therapist yesterday)

structural75
06-27-2007, 04:47 PM
Gerbo,
No, completely unrelated... In fact they don't resemble one another whatsoever... also, in Bowen the client is passive the entire time, in SI they are very much an active part of the work... . From what I've experienced with it and from what some clients of mine had reported, it seems to be mostly effecting the autonomic nervous sysytem... parasympathetic and sympathetic balancing. I had one client recently who came to me with severe back apin and two frozen shoulders, 5 years post-operative. She had tried Bowen but it didn't seem to have any effect on the frozen shoulders but did offer temporary relief of some of the back pain. For what that's worth.

Bowen Technique was created by an australian I believe... Usually consists of light touch/contact points.... then the practitioner leaves the room and lets you lay there while your nervous system supposedly 'resets' itself...

I won't comment any further on that one.. ;)