PDA

View Full Version : Scoliosis and TAMARS treatment



Rayknox
05-23-2007, 05:46 AM
After operating a TAMARS clinic for several years the conclusion is that scoliosis is, in most cases very treatable without surgery. We have had very good results, and the sooner we get the patient the easier the scoliosis is to fix.
A very common cause of the scoliosis appears to be a fall on the bottom - falling on ice or off a trampoline are regular culprits. This compresses the spine and the spine then gradually twists. If the fall happens at a young age then, with growth, the scoliosis increases in severity. Other symtoms that regularly occur are low back pain, shoulder pain, headaches etc.
The TAMARS treatment frees up the spine and removes the twists, sometimes very spectacularly.
Ray

tonibunny
05-23-2007, 07:31 AM
That's interesting, Ray! I'd like to ask some questions....

- Who has been doing proper research into this effectiveness of this system? I mean, which scientists?
- Is the treatment administered by a medically qualified doctor, or just an osteopath, chiropractor or other such practitioner?
- Do you make use of standard diagnostic tools such as x-rays and MRI scans?
- By what criteria is treatment deemed a success?
- Is this treatment available on the NHS? Surely the NHS' scoliosis specialists must be very excited about it?
- How is it possible to say that scoliosis is caused by "a fall on the bottom" when everyone you ask is likely to remember falling thus at some point in the past, but only a handful of people develop scoliosis?
- Why would a brief shock to the spine cause it to "compress and twist", if there is no damage to the shock-absorbing intervertebral discs?
- Where does infantile idiopathic scoliosis fit into this, where a baby has developed marked scoliosis before it has even sat upright for the first time?

Thanks :)

SandyC
05-23-2007, 10:34 AM
Toni,
Great questions, it will be interesting to see if he answers :rolleyes:

Rayknox
05-23-2007, 11:15 AM
Hi There,
Because the treatment is reasonably new, full clinical trials have not been completed yet. However Advanced Spinal Technologies in America are proceeding gradually down this route. They have opened a clinic in Florida and initial results of a small sample group have been published.
The treatment need to be administered by someone trained in the procedure. Inexperienced practitioners will get good results with normal back problems, but to resolve complex curvatures needs a lot of practice generally. In Florida machines have been placed in medical clinics with treatment performed by physical therapists.
X-rays and MRI scans are useful but not essential to treatment. The practitioner actually gets an excellent feel of the condition of the spine just by treating. MRI's will obviously highlight nerve pressure etc. but the treatment does not change. You need to observe the treatment to fully appreciate it.
Success is measured by complete removal of pain and or large reduction if not complete removal of curvatures.
The Orthopaedic surgeons in this region are aware of the treatment and are giving favourable comments, but the N.H.S. will probably not adopt the treatment until a clinical trial is done. In this clinic we do not advertise more than perhaps once per year but results are giving us patients from mainland U.K. and even the USA. All word of mouth.
The reason I state that a fall on the bottom is a cause (and I mean obviously only one possible cause) is because I have identified this as a factor in a large number of patients from 7 years to 90 years of age. eg I have had several patients with kyphotic and scoliotic lumbar spines as a result of an ice skating fall. The treatment removed the kyphosis and the scoliosis. A 15 year old female patient was told she would never play sport again. She had fallen on her bottom very heavily off a trampoline 2 years previously. She had cervical, thoracic and lumbar curvatures with severe pain in the upper lumbar region. Her spine is now straight, and she broke athletics records 4 months after treatment- totally pain free.
It is aso surprising how people forget their falls. Some patients have been in hospital after a fall but forget about it whe initially asked. Also a large number of patients develop a slight scoliosis that is not diagnosed. They merely complain of back pain are treated accordingly by their doctor.

A sharp impact on the end of the spine is, I assume,compressing the facet joints. Again when measuring the height of the previously mentioned 15 year old, she was 2.5 cm taller after the first treatment and this remained in the weeks following. The impact will probably not be central which would give uneven compression.

Infantile idiopathic scoliosis is possibly genetic. A proper trial is the only way to prove whether something was done at birth. I have seen patients developing scoliosis after surgery so I am open to all possibilities.
Hope this is of some use.
Ray.

tonibunny
05-23-2007, 02:45 PM
Hi Ray,

Thanks for your reply. It's good to have a practitioner of an "alternative" treatment for scoliosis actually reply to my questions!

The treatment sounds fascinating. I don't however believe that you can properly treat scoliosis without at least having x-rays done so that you can see what you're dealing with. How do you determine the degree of someone's curvature? And it's impossible to feel the anterior spine by touching with one's hands. How can you possibly know whether the scoliosis is idiopathic, or is caused by neurological or congenital deformities which have only just presented with symptoms? This does happen quite frequently, I help to run another scoliosis forum and have conversed with people both here and there who have experienced this. Also I would imagine that it would be downright dangerous to treat someone with scoliosis due to an undiagnosed Chiari malformation.

According to a website on this treatment, "severe" scoliosis can be completely cured after just a few sessions. How do you define "severe" scoliosis? What's the biggest degree of curvature that you have successfully removed? I can imagine physical therapies managing to "cure" slight curvatures that are still very loose, but I find it hard to believe that a large, rotated curve of say 80 degrees could be permanently "cured" in just three or four sessions.

I'm surprised that clinical trials have not been done as a matter of urgency. If this treatment can cure scoliosis, that would save the NHS a lot of money every year - it would remove the costs of bracing and surgery, at least. What do the top surgeons in the Scoliosis Research Society say? Surely they must be very excited to hear of this and are pushing for clinical trials?

Karen Ocker
05-23-2007, 03:15 PM
Mr. raynox:


What is your education and professional credentials???
Do you give a money back guarantee?? :rolleyes:

Rayknox
05-23-2007, 04:34 PM
I am a graduate engineer and an ex international athlete. I employ medically qualified personnel. I was trained by the developer of the equipment who was also an engineer. Thinking like a medic does not help to treat patients. Logic and common sense are just if not more important.

Rayknox
05-23-2007, 05:06 PM
Can I state first of all that I got involved with this treatment because I had a son with 'idiopathic' scoliosis - lumbar and thoracic curvatures and a 2cm rib hump. I also had bad sciatic pain myself that I could not get cured and my wife had a very badly twisted spine that was untreatable. We all now have backs that are practically normal. My son's scoliosis is 95% gone and there is no rib hump.
If I can try and answer your questions one at a time.
You would be amazed what you can feel with the equipment - you do not feel with your hands except through the treatment tool. I find that x-rays are of very little use except to be aware of fractures. Congenital deformities will usually be spotted early in life if they are of any severity. Idiopathic is as it says - cause not known - my son's idiopathic scoliosis was due to a crash at 14years.
Chiari malformation is very rare and the symtoms can be caused by a twisted cervical spine. A twist of this type can be cured with this treatment and our success rate for even long term headaches, dizzyness, etc is extremely high.
The treatment is very safe and does not compare with the high velocity thrusts used by other treatments.
80 degree curvatures are obviously much more difficult than actually getting patients before they have been allowed to progress to this stage. Especially if the scoliosis began in childhood. Every patient is different - some respond very quickly, some are very hard work but they all show a reduction - many to zero. Very few of the patients are 'loose' most have suffered for years and have tried all sorts of treatment. Three or four treatments again is rare but to mention another case - a cerebral palsy patient, awaiting harrington rods to cure his scoliosis had his mainly lumbar curvature removed in two sessions. Unusually quick but true nevertheless. He returned a year later, out of his wheelchair with his spine in the same condition, and now riding motorcycles.
In his words the fourth wonder of the world.
Clinical trials cost a lot of money. Money neither I or the inventor have. This is why we are waiting for the American company to fulfill this role.
Again as I say to everyone - seeing is believing- My door is open!

tonibunny
05-23-2007, 05:31 PM
Hi Ray,

I am a little concerned that you mention a patient awaiting "Harrington Rods". This instrumentation is obsolete and has not been in use in America or the UK for many many years. I would expect a medical professional to be fully aware of this, yet many alternative practitioners refer to them!

Can you elaborate on the "medically qualified personnel" that you employ - are they doctors? "Medically qualified personnel" can mean anything from nurses and physiotherapists to consultants. I wouldn't trust anyone other than a qualified doctor specialising in spinal problems to take responsibility for the care of my spine, and I'm afraid that I would insist on x-rays.

It is not true that congenital scoliosis always presents itself in childhood. We have seen several people who have previously unknown congenital problems that suddenly manifest themselves in adulthood. Only an x-ray would be able to diagnose this.

Your treatment sounds amazing - please could you let us know what the Scoliosis Research Society have said about it? I mean, it's an amazing cure - surely you have brought it to their attention? They are after all the most important and influential group of scoliosis specialists in the world, and could help enormously with organising clinical trials.

Cheers,

Toni

Rayknox
05-24-2007, 03:12 AM
I beg to differ. Maybe in america they are not used but they are being used here. Surely one of the Royal Family had them inserted a few years ago. I also know patients that have had them inserted in the last 12 months.
If you search these forums you will see patients describing Harrington rods being inserted this year in America. The discussion following debates the term Harrington rods but the post I read has the patient saying he was told they were Harrington rods. At the very least they are placing metal bars in the patient attached to the spine.
I employ physiotherapists. I also consult with G.P.'s I also treat G.P's by the way, and lots of nurses and the occasional consultant. As I have said the medical profession will not take this on board until there is a trial done. I have not consulted the Scoliosis research body. I have been evaluating this treatment for several years now, mainly with the aim of curing back pain. I am only contributing to this forum to inform anyone who is interested of the results that I am getting with scoliosis patients. You have your own opinions, but don't close your mind to new ideas without actually seeing the treatment.

tonibunny
05-24-2007, 06:58 AM
People sometimes use the term "Harrington Rod" as a generic term for metal implants, because these were the only rods available for several decades. Actual Harrington Rods have NOT been in general use for many years though. They have been superceded by segmentational instumentation that attaches to vertebrae and can derotate the spine.

In addition, Princess Eugenie did not have Harrington Rods implanted. I know this for a fact because her surgeon at the Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital in Stanmore has treated several of my friends and he has never used Harrington Rods. Indeed, they haven't used Harrington Rods at the RNOH for over 15 years.

I'm not closing my mind to anything new that can help scoliosis patients, but you must understand that I am very wary of alternative treatments that have not yet been formally scientifially tested nor even brought to the attention of the SRS, which claim to cure severe scoliosis in just a few sessions. Why do you need to evaluate the treatment for several years when you are able to cure scoliosis almost immediately? Is it because the scoliosis returns? It sounds miraculous, and I presume that you charge for this? Do you give a money-back guarantee?

Rayknox
05-24-2007, 08:02 AM
I assume you are in the UK from your comments. Come and look at the treatment and then decide. Talk to patients - see if they are happy- do we charge for the treatment? If it did not work I would not be interested in the slightest, and would not run clinics. What is your medical background? You just sound cynical which is understandable. As for the Harrington rod question, whatever is placed in the spine is certainly metal, it does not fully cure the scoliosis and there is a hugh risk involved.
This clinic is not an evaluation clinic. as I stated the treatment is primarily for curing back pain. The scoliosis results came about from treating scoliosis patients with back pain. If no-one is interested in these results then no problem. But it will come into the medical domain eventually as the results are too good to ignore if carried out by a competent person.
I have not contacted the SRS but we are currently in contact with a london university to get a study started.(this just in the last few weeks)
Do the surgeons give a money back guarantee when treatment does not work? or are they infallible?
If you had read the previous cerebral palsy case that should have answered your question

tonibunny
05-24-2007, 08:52 AM
Hi Ray,

I was diagnosed with infantile idiopathic scoliosis at the age of 6 months, with a double curve of 62/40 degrees, left thoracic, right lumbar. I wore plaster bodycasts and Milwaukee braces until the age of ten when I had my thoracic curve fused from T1-T12 with a Harrington Rod (this being in 1986), following a few weeks in halo traction. My thoracic curve had been 76 degrees and it was reduced to 45 degrees. I had further surgery at the age of 18 (in 1994) to fuse my lumbar curve, extending the fusion down to L4 using Zielke instrumentation, bringing the curve down from 55 degrees to 35 degrees. I also had a costoplasty at this time, and a further costoplasty in 2001. My back now looks fantastic :) My surgeon throughout my life was Mr Michael Edgar FRCS, who was one of the top scoliosis experts in the UK and is an emeritus fellow of the Scoliosis Research Society.

Since late 2001 I have been very active in scoliosis support forums and am a member of staff at scoliosis-support.org, which is based in the UK and has 1000 members. I am on there nearly every day providing support to people with scoliosis and their parents. In addition, I read the other scoliosis support forums and post if I can help in any way because it doesn't really matter where people get support, so long as they get it.

I'd be extremely happy if a device such as yours could cure scoliosis. Of course I am cynical - we have people (especially chiropractors) claiming that they can cure scoliosis and kyphosis all the time. Sometimes people pay a lot of money for treatment that doesn't work, and in the meantime their curvature has progressed to such an extent that they require surgery where they may have avoided it with conventional treatment. I do not want to see this happen to the people I help to support in forums such as this one. You will get hard questions from people like me, but if your device is as successful as you say, then it will eventually prove itself to be a fantastic breakthrough in the treatment of scoliosis.

Surgeons do not make promises of "curing" scoliosis. They always explain the (very minimal) risks, and explain that scoliosis cannot usually be totally removed. However, practically everyone who has the surgery has great results that they are very pleased with, and then go on to live their lives as normal. It's just those few that have ongoing problems (mostly the older generation with Harrington Rods) that turn up on support sites, which makes surgery look more problematic than it actually is.

As you know, in the UK we rarely pay for scoliosis treatment so the situation of "asking for our money back" if we were unhappy with the results of our surgery could not arise. And, as I have said, surgeons are careful to explain the risks and the amount of correction they hope to achieve - they do not make promises. I would imagine that if anything went horribly wrong then a patient could claim compensation, but I have never heard of this happening in the UK.

If you have a London University (which one?) doing studies, and if you contact the SRS, I would be extremely happy to support you. Perhaps you would be willing to treat one of our members (of SSO) for free in order to prove that your treatment works as you say? If they could report back favourably then I would have no problem at all in recommending that people try your treatment.

Could you tell me what the largest degree of curvature you have "cured" is? In large curves the vertebrae often become wedge-shaped, so I am curious as to how it is possible for you to straighten a spine with wedged vertebrae.

Regards,

Toni

Rayknox
05-24-2007, 09:43 AM
Hi again Toni,
Thanks for that explanation and description of your experiences. I have always run up against cynicism since the clinics were opened and understandably so. I would be as cynical as the rest until I saw a positive outcome.That was the reason we have promoted ourselves so little. The vast majority of our patients and an increasing no. of scoliosis patients come recommended by other patients. My view was that if the treatment did not work then we would have no patients. The treatment has been around for a few years now and I initially opened the first clinic to prove the concept to myself. I eventually came to the conclusion that lack of experience was the downfall of the treatment. I reckon that a practitioner needs up to two years hands on experience to do the treatment justice. As I think I mentioned I was trained by the inventor of the equipment, who was of an engineering background like myself. Because we would have run across specific complaints maybe only a few times a year, it took time to build up a picture of the results. If we treated a patient with a complaint we were unfamiliar with we did not charge. When we saw that it worked we charged. so we completed many hundred of free or reduced price treatments at the beginning.
My first attempts at severe scoliosis ie>60 degrees were not very successful - there were improvements but not enough for my requirements. However with time and practice I now expect good results. I have a number of severe and not so severe patients under treatment at the moment, ranging from 16 years to 50 years. Very considerable improvements have been made in all of them and pain is gone in all but the oldest patient who has had severe sciatica for many many years now.
We are talking to Kings College at the moment and they have expressed an interest so we will pursue this line in the coming weeks.
Wedge shaped vertebrae - this condition is seen as a major cause of kyphosis in ageing people. Generally we can remove this kyphosis, wedging or no wedging, and we find that there is a twist through the kyphosis. When the twist is reduced the kyphosis is reduced. We remove dowagers hump in the majority of patients.
Idiopathic scoliosis that has been allowed to develop as the child grows causes the most problems. The twists initially reduce quite considerably and then stabilise. The final untwisting we then treat over a longer period to allow the spine to adjust.
I would be quite happy to treat someone you send, free of charge. But try me with someone that is not completely impossible with 90 degrees of curvature. If you wish to do this the patient would have to stay here for a few days and I would need a few days to make a difference.
You will then be free to call me deluded if you wish.

tonibunny
05-24-2007, 02:13 PM
Hi Ray,

Thank you for your response! It is very, very good to know that you have so much faith in your treatment that you would be willing to treat someone for free. I'm also pleased that you have been totally honest and said that curves of over 60 degrees would be problematic and 90 degrees would be nigh on impossible. Not all alternative practitioners are as honest as this, and I appreciate it.

Personally I see a 60 degree curvature as moderate rather than severe, but it sounds like your treatment might be of most benefit to people with smaller curves that wouldn't need surgery, but cause a lot of pain? Anything non-invasive that can relieve pain is of course to be welcomed anyway.

I think that it will be difficult for you to "prove" that you are curing scoliosis without the use of before and after x-rays, but I do wish you very good luck with getting proper scientific studies into your treatment sorted out with Kings College. They would give it a lot of credibility. DO let the SRS know about it too; they may be able to help.

I'd love to know how you get on, please keep in touch :-)

Cheers,
Toni

Rayknox
05-24-2007, 04:22 PM
Hi Toni,
I agree on the x-ray front, but the problem I am finding is that it is very difficult for the patients to get their x-rays released by their doctor. One patient has been trying to get them for 3 months now, and she would be a very good example as she had a 'severe' scoliosis now reduced to very moderate. I need the x-rays to show the change, but she was told she needed surgery and now looks so normal she will not take it.
Anyway I will keep you posted and if you wish to send someone over I will treat supervised by a GP. If you want a contact number I will send a private message.Thanks for 'listening'
Ray. :)

Karen Ocker
05-24-2007, 06:59 PM
Another forum member has written last year that she tried the treatment; she never got back to us to rave about her success.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-1189.html-(Eleniki)

Someone else was trying to sell us that program in 2004(Mr. scoliosis).

What does the treatment cost and what is the usual duration? Also, how long does the correction last after treatments stop???

trcylynn
05-25-2007, 12:40 PM
I have to be skeptical on this as well... I tried researching TAMARS and on websites there are only original (if any) pictures of the scoliosis patients. If the treatment cured the scoliois pictures of corrections would be posted and patients would be raving about the treatment on these forums or elsewhere.

Rayknox
05-26-2007, 05:16 AM
We charge rates comparable to physio. Usual treatment time is 1 hour.

gerbo
05-26-2007, 11:29 AM
Most patients with considerable curves, the ones you suggest you can help and have helped, are likely to be under regular review at an orthopaedic clinic. Even if you cannot get the xrays, the patient should be able to get the clinic letter(s) from the consultant to their GP describing this "miraculous" recovery, which would be quite good evidence.

by the way; what exactly did you mean by "my son's idiopatic scoliosis was due to a crash at 14". If it was due to a crash it wasn't idiopatic, was it? Even without the crash "idiopatic scoliosis" doesn't develop at age 14 (although it might be picked up than first" Could it be that the injury of the crash caused muscle spasm, which caused a temporary scoliosis which disappeared once the effects of the injury wore off?

just curious

Karen Ocker
05-26-2007, 12:48 PM
Raynox,
You did not answer my question:


Also, how long does the correction last after treatments stop??Karen Ocker

Also, if the treatment is not covered by NHS what must a person pay out of pocket???? :confused:

structural75
05-26-2007, 12:55 PM
Poor guy.... I'm not an advocate of empty promises and such but maybe we could look past the particulars of his choice of wording at times and open ourselves to learn more about this approach. I'm just sitting on the fence with this one, but the usual biting remarks prompt me to say a few words. (Original sources for the quotations will remain nameless as I don't mean to personally offend anyone.)


Do you give a money back guarantee??
Have any doctors been known to give their patients their money back when they return years later with moderate to severe back pain, broken hardware, nerve damage or failed fusions? Just curious... ;) .


Is the treatment administered by a medically qualified doctor, or just an osteopath, chiropractor or other such practitioner?
Just to clarify, an osteopath in the US is a medically qualified doctor, equal to MDs.


How is it possible to say that scoliosis is caused by "a fall on the bottom" when everyone you ask is likely to remember falling thus at some point in the past, but only a handful of people develop scoliosis? Why would a brief shock to the spine cause it to "compress and twist", if there is no damage to the shock-absorbing intervertebral discs?
Obviously a fall on the coccyx will not cause scoliosis in everyone who incurs such a trauma... no two injuries are exactly alike. However if the fall is severe enough and the orientation/direction of impact is 'just right', it can cause a deviated fixation of the tailbone (coccyx) which then disrupts normal spinal mechanics. When you bend your spine in any direction the coccyx must be free to move accordingly and when it is fixated it will consequently cause deviation of the remainder of the spine above. It's not so much due to the force of impact "compressing" the spine, although if one caught it just right it certainly could compromise the discs as they attempt to absorb the impact, leading to an ideopathic scoliosis as the body aims to protect the injured disc(s) from further rupture/damage.


If it was due to a crash it wasn't idiopatic, was it? Even without the crash "idiopatic scoliosis" doesn't develop at age 14 What type of scoliosis (lateral curvature of the spine) would you call it then? Infantile? Structural? Congenital? ... Ideopthic sounds most appropriate to me. Ideopathic being of 'unknown' cause or developing later in life. It sounds like your confusing a general ideopathic description with adolescent ideopathic scoliosis, or AIS.



Someone else was trying to sell us that program in 2004(Mr. scoliosis). Why is it that the presumed intentions of anyone coming on here to share other non-surgical approaches to management is often considered to be "selling" something? If someone does Pilates as a form of exercise have they fallen prey to the mass marketed sales pitch for Pilates in recent years? Maybe people are just trying to share these lesser known approaches with others. The only reason Pilates and Yoga is so popular and widely accepted is because it has become BIG business and 'trendy'... in other words it was marketed well and many are reaping the financial rewards of that marketing. (tight abs and butt, obsessed with 'control' and rigid cores ...the american dream! :rolleyes: ) Are there any substantial studies done with Pilates to validate its use or long-term effect on scoliosis? Why not consider what Ray has put forth, or others in the past, as being potentially useful?

Structural

SandyC
05-26-2007, 01:24 PM
Structural,
Perhaps the "poor guy" is being given a hard time because a lot of us on this board have gone thru the searching for an easy fix, human nature being what it is. The same people discovered that "easy" isn't what it is advertised to be. Never mind the time wasted, the amount of $$$$$$$ involved can be very devastating, without results.

I think we should be picking apart the wording being used. If he can't/doesn't know the differance between idopathic/congential etc. then perhaps what is being advertised is a possible real problem!

structural75
05-26-2007, 02:38 PM
Sandy,

Fair enough... I see your point. But should other well intended folks or practitioners be treated with disdain for your own misconceptions that there is an "easy fix" to this problem. It seems like what you're saying is that human nature leads us to search for quick and easy solutions (and I agree that most are not interested in investing any significant time into the care and management of their bodies until something actually goes wrong enough to create noticeable problems) and if that doesn't work we should jump to the other end of the spectrum and consider the most radical and life changing ones. Sounds like a case of massive societal bipolar disorder... .

I do believe there is a balance somewhere in the middle that can be utilized intelligently as a first line of defense.

I can see where you're coming from and I notice it in my own practice. People come in often wanting "miracles" with as little effort and commitment possible. People expect the quick fix because they would rather buy a new pair of shoes or outfit, go to dinner at a nice restaurant, go to the movies, take an expensive vacation, etc. rather than invest in their own health. Many folks will put more time, money and energy into maintenance of their home or car than they will in the maintenance of their body. And in the end, they wait until things get so bad that surgical intervention and/or drug therapy are the only real options, ... and the last ones.

So I have to ask: Is it the practitioners driving this 'advertising' scheme for quick fixes, or those seeking out the "easy fix"? I think it's a little of both... practitioner and the patient. Some practitioners are just greasy jerks out to take peoples money, and others are trying to compete with their 'greasy' colleagues' success at doing so by advertising 'quick fixes'. And lastly, there are in fact some good apples out there who care about their patients and promise nothing but the best treatment they can offer with honesty and integrity.

I don't know this guy, and as I said, I'm on the fence regarding this one (I myself am skeptical that just a few hours of treatment is going to have that significant of an effect... but it doesn't mean that it's totally ineffective). But it still seems quite critical... why don't those involved in the discussion do some searching to learn more about the work... how it works, what is its premise, how does it achieve these supposed results... and ultimately does it sound logical and reasonable. Maybe it would offer some more insight into what he's talking about. But to sit back and say 'show me the studies and research etc.' is simply antagonistic rather than a productive inquiry into unknown territory.

I don't recall him not knowing the difference between ideopathic and congenital scoliosis, but maybe it's somewhere in there... . However, at the same time, there have been other topics on this forum of which many of you knew nothing or little about but people still chose to offer their opinion on it. Is that appropriate?

Structural

tonibunny
05-26-2007, 05:01 PM
Structural,

Thanks for jumping in on this thread and trying to help, but if you read, you'll see that Ray answered all of my questions himself. I was actually pleased with the answers he gave me and I don't require anyone else answering on his behalf. Ray has accepted that he will get hard questions from people on boards such as this one, but I think that it's to his credit that he answered everything I asked honestly.

You have missed the context of our conversation. Ray's based in Northern Ireland which is part of the UK, and here in the UK chiropractors are NOT qualified doctors. In addition, we addressed the "would you ask your surgeon for a money-back guarantee" question too.

Ray has faith in his device and is in talks with an extremely well-respected London university to run proper clinical trials. Whilst I could not yet recommend Ray's treatment to anyone, I respect the way he answered all of my questions with honesty, I respect him for offering to treat someone I sent him for free in order to prove that his device works, I respect that he has admitted the limitations of his treatment, and I will definitely be staying in touch with him to see how he gets on with the London university.

Regards,

Toni

structural75
05-26-2007, 08:15 PM
Toni,
First, please don't patronize me... My skin has toughened up since coming to this forum... and secondly, I did read the entire thread... . I would expect someone to respond as you have... they usually do. It's interesting how several people can jump on a wagon together and come at Ray with doubtful and sarcastic remarks but when one person pops forth to point it out, well now I'm in the wrong. ????

I wasn't attempting to answer on his behalf. I was, however, casually commenting on a few points/questions/ideas from my own perspective and clinical experience. Seeing as how everyone else has been free to do the same with me and my previous postings, ... What's the harm???

I didn't accuse you of anything, so why the tense response here? It was actually a couple of others who presented some questions and comments to him in a negative tone... I think it's obvious that I respect this total stranger and am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, partly because I've been in his shoes before and YES, he does show honesty and integrity in his responses. So what's the problem here again?

No, I have not missed the context of your conversation... and I was referring to "osteopaths" in the US not chiropractors in the UK. Is TAMARS treatment solely used in the UK? I recall seeing this device demonstrated here in the states. Besides, why would it be more important to have an MD oversee its use when it is designed to mimic the work of manipulative practitioners such as Osteopaths? Wouldn't "qualified" oversight be more appropriate from someone who actually knows what the machine is doing? MDs are generally clueless about manipulative work, so how do they qualify as the leading experts here?

In any case, onward with your discussion. Sorry to interrupt. Next time I'll ask for your permission.

Structural

Rayknox
05-27-2007, 08:42 AM
I am out of the country at the moment and have just a couple of minutes to write a quick few words on a borrowed computer. When I return I will respond to a lot of the interesting points that have been raised. I want to consider my replies carefully as everything I say is being picked apart by some people but interesting comments never the less. I don't mind criticism if it is constructive.
Ray.

Celia
05-27-2007, 10:11 AM
Rayknox,

I don't think anyone needs to pick apart your words to see that your overall message is a bit over the top! Who do you think you're kidding???? You then have the gall to make these assertions without x-rays to back up your claims????? GET REAL!!!!! :mad:


Just the other day I was wondering when we were due for another lively discussion/debate with alternative practitioners making unsubstantiated expensive claims and here we are :D

tonibunny
05-27-2007, 02:14 PM
Please, calm down chaps! :D

Structural, I just tried to point out that I had got answers from Ray and was happy with what he has told me. He hasn't tried to claim a miracle cure; he's excited about the possibilities of his treatment and he is seeking to have proper studies done. I respect his honesty and I wish him well because he could well be onto something, and he's happy for me to reserve judgement for the time being.

It does seem that your comments about my discussion with Ray were somewhat inflammatory, when in fact our discussion (which *was* in the context of medical treatment in the UK) has been calm, friendly and respectful. Whilst I did make doubtful comments, none of them were sarcastic, and I certainly didn't gang up on him with anyone else!

I have warmed to Ray because he is arranging to have studies done by a very well respected London university, which will by necessity incorporate the use of x-rays. Until these studies are done I shall reserve judgement.

structural75
05-27-2007, 02:49 PM
Toni,

Point taken... thank you and my apologies for any inflammatory remarks. I hope you realize that it wasn't you that I was referring to, ...as you said, you were healthfully skeptical but having a respectful conversation as well. Trust me, I'm not looking to begin another insidious debate with the less informed. We're all adults here and I would presume that we're all capable of educating ourselves outside of this forum... to each his/her own.

structural

Celia,

I myself was wondering when you'd chime in on this one.

There was a time, not so long ago within the past century that what we now consider to be 'conventional'' medicine was in fact the "alternative". If we're going to be sticklers about 'scientific' medicine then consider this. When was the last time you read or knew of a study done on all of the thousands, if not more, combinations of drugs administered to millions of people every day? Sure, they do studies on the individual drugs themselves, but are there studies to substantiate and confirm the safety of any number of combinations often prescribed? No there is not. So we have no idea what the potential consequences of these combinations may have in the long run. That's not 'scientific' medicine, that's educated guessing at best.

Last I knew Celia, you brace your daughter. Now if that's not "alternative" to surgery and drugs, what is? I don't appreciate your slander once again toward specialists of musculoskeletal conditions. You might have a leg to stand on when all of the spinecor MDs you support without question can get a grasp on the inadvertent arise of tenacious secondary curves from their brace. Their claim that the secondary curves are "inconsequential" are just as "unsubstantiated" as anything put forth here!

By the way, "expensive claims"... ? Do you realize how much treatment one could receive for the equivalent cost of the spinecor brace alone, never mind all the Drs visits, x-rays, travel expenses, additional straps and the duration of all that spent forcing the body against its inherent will? People don't need to spend years doing something if it doesn't show improvements... at least they should be wise enough not to. I don't think Ray was suggesting to discard everything else and spend enormous amounts of money on something if it's not working. Doing these things in combination would seem ideal to me, but that's obviously just my opinion... I know you like to put all of your eggs in one basket.

structural

Celia
05-27-2007, 04:40 PM
Once again you're out in the left field grasping for analogies, what does drugs have to do with the topic! :confused: There is no slander here! Results, that's the key word. You can spend enormous sums of money spinning your wheels and getting no where or you could do something that has proven results - therein lies the difference in the non operative treatment of scoliosis. You can say all you want but until you can prove your treatment works no-one is going to buy into it! Period! We also have very differing views in our interpretation of musculoskeletal specialists and snake oil salesmen.

structural75
05-28-2007, 08:33 AM
Read between the lines... .


We also have very differing views in our interpretation of musculoskeletal specialists and snake oil salesmen.
If calling alternative practitioners snake oil salesmen isn't slander, then I don't know what is.

Just because "alternative practitioners" aren't rolling in money as your MDs are and can't afford expensive studies for your reading pleasure, it doesn't mean that there haven't been clinical successes. And keep in mind that not nearly everyone who makes the expensive and time consuming efforts with bracing have success with it, proven or unproven with studies! You can talk about expensive treatments all you like, but when it comes down to it, you're chosen method is one of the most expensive out there and it doesn't guarantee results either.

And for the record lady, nobody needs to "buy" into my complimentary approach because I run a non-profit scoliosis clinic for children and adolescents. I do this because: 1) I care about these children 2) Everyone, regardless of financial abilities, should be able to provide the best comprehensive care possible for their children 3) I believe ideopathic scoliosis is caused by a wide array of factors, each unique to the individual. It's not a disease, and it isn't always due to genetics. There are many possible reasons why someone would develop a lateral curvature of the spine. Therefore, there will probably never be one solution to this problem that works all of the time and the predictability of treatment outcome will probably always remain somewhat questionable.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand how some of these "alternative" approaches could be effective in many cases (TAMARS, structural integration, etc). You don't seem to understand what the braces your daughter has worn are doing to make those corrections. If you did, you might see the logic and capabilities of these other approaches as completely viable compliments to the bracing process. So until you're able to understand the physical and physiologic changes that the braces create, I don't see how you have any right to dismiss these other methods so rudely.

Good Day

Celia
05-28-2007, 10:54 AM
....Just because "alternative practitioners" aren't rolling in money as your MDs are and can't afford expensive studies for your reading pleasure, it doesn't mean that there haven't been clinical successes. And keep in mind that not nearly everyone who makes the expensive and time consuming efforts with bracing have success with it, proven or unproven with studies! You can talk about expensive treatments all you like, but when it comes down to it, you're chosen method is one of the most expensive out there and it doesn't guarantee results either.


Actually, my chosen method didn't cost me too much as most of it was covered by insurance! I don't know how you interpret success, but we're having pretty *darn* good luck with our chosen method, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!! :D Since you have brought up the clinical successes experienced by alternative practitioners that are not found in studies and we don't have the pleasure of reading, please share with us the miraculous success you've experienced in your own personal trials with scoliosis and how structural integration helped resolve your 25 degree curvature. :p

structural75
05-28-2007, 11:05 AM
You're a heartless #@$@$! You have some real balls to question and belittle my personal experience and suggest that I'm being dishonest.

I'm glad your daughter's doing well and hope it continues, ...update me when she's quite a bit older though, and finished her major growth spurts. And please explain to all of those folks out there who didn't have the results you're currently having with bracing (for correction and/or pain) why it didn't work for them and what they should do. Is it time for surgery for them? Should they not explore any other options but the one that has already failed?

The world doesn't revolve around 'Celia', ...there are people who have tried you're approved method and are at a loss as to what to do. So what is the harm in offering suggestions for additional approaches?

Happy Memorial Day!

p.s.- Maybe if we had some serious health care reform in this ridiculously opulent country of ours we would have more choices and ability in getting the care we need. Some insurance companies do cover structural integration, but at the moment it's not many. Meanwhile, millions of people can't afford even basic health insurance because those that have it are driving up the cost , MDs are charging them outrageous sums for their services and drug/technology companies are making billions in profits.

There are European countries that spend 9% of their GNP on universal health care for all. The US, who doesn't offer universal health care and has millions of people uninsured, spends 16% of their GNP on it. What's wrong with this picture??? In the meantime you're getting coverage and then traveling to Canada for the care.???

Celia
05-28-2007, 11:57 AM
You're a heartless #@$@$! You have some real balls to question and belittle my personal experience and suggest that I'm being dishonest.



I beg your pardon???! I've had enough of your questioning my chosen path and insulting my doctors. I'm perfectly aware that not everyone is having the same success and who knows what will happen during the adolescent growth spurt, I don't have a crystal ball. There are many ills in this world, but some things like the state of health care and turmoil in the middle east are beyond my control so I won't stress over it. Why can't you share your personal experience with scoliosis and how structural integration helped??? Prove me wrong that you're not a liar. :cool:

Rayknox
05-28-2007, 03:06 PM
Now back in the country.
Well that little break has stirred up what sounds like an old argument.
Structural - I do not know your background, but your answers probably took some of the pressure off me having to state a lot of what you said.
Please refer to my original posting and in hindsight my words were obviously open to a different interpretation than I intended.
We do get very good results with the majority of our scoliosis patients, and the results are visible - invasive x-rays are not necessary to see the changes. If you do not believe this then you can only come and observe. It is not rocket science to measure a rib-hump or a kyphosis and monitor the changes.
How long do the changes last. There would have been no use in my stating results a week after treatment and stating there was no regression. Hence I mentioned the cerebral palsy case. I can also use my own son as an example.
My use of the term idiopathic for my own son is because that would be the medical term for it. We were not aware of my sons scoliosis until he was in his 20's. I am convinced the condition was caused by a fall in his mid teens but how do I prove this without a time machine to go back and check his spine before the accident.
I still am convinced that lots of scoliosis conditions are caused by a fall. My theory on spinal compression is disputed but who can say I am wrong. The 15 year old female patient that I mentioned was 2.5cm taller after her first treatment and this did not regress. You give me your scientific explanation of this! This patient by the way had x-rays, MRI scans, bone scans etc and never once was she told that she had curvatures. My cat could have seen the curvature when she lay down. My cat would now tell me the curvature is now gone. As are all her symtoms.
Her condition would have been diagnosed as being idiopathic if they had noticed the curvatures. All they could tell her was that she had degenerated upper lumbar discs(idiopathic?) and would never play sport again. So much for that.
Karen mentioned that a forum member tried the treatment but did not report back. I did say that inexperienced practitioners will not get good results. There are very few people that have specialised in this treatment and this is a big problem. There is absolutely no point in giving this equipment to a physio or anyone else for them to use it one or two hours a week and then expect good results. I have been working with this 6 to 8 hours a day, 6 days a week for three and a half years now and I am still learning.
I had a visit last year from a US chiropractor of 15 years experience. After his 4 days that he had booked for hands on training he lenghtened his stay as he found it so difficult to master.
Sandy again the idiopathic/ congenital issue. Idiopathic is no known cause. Just because there is no known cause does not mean there is no cause. There has to be a cause. This is why I raised the issue of falls on the pelvic region. Until you get experienced with this treatment you will not believe that I can very quickly tell if this is the cause by the feel of the spine through the TAMARS handset. Mock all you like- it is a fact. And until you sort out the problems caused by the fall you will not resolve the scoliosis.
Celia - I do not have the 'gall' to make assertions without x-rays. In most cases the evidence is visible. Don't criticise something you know nothing about. You ask for results. I have results but have not published as I know that people like you want x-rays. I am trying to rectify this as I have said.
To conclude, it was very useful communications from people like toni and structural Some other comments were natural scepticism from concerned interested parties.Some were just rude. I am not advertising. I am only stating what I have discovered.
Feel free to continue the discussion.
Ray

Karen Ocker
05-28-2007, 04:09 PM
I searched the web for info on the TAMARS treatment. It's marketed as a device for physical therapy to do deep massage for back pain. The company does NOT claim it as a treatment for scoliosis. So why are we discussing it here?

http://www.skycapitalventures.com/portfolio_companies/spinal_tech/index.html

The only persons claiming it works for scoliosis are individual practitioners who are advertising their services on-line.

My concern here, MR. Knox, that you are trying to drum up business on this forum-using a device for a disorder that the maker does not even claim it helps.



As a medical professional I cannot, for the life of me, see how it can reposition a scoliotic spine permanently. It might be great for back spasm and is touted as giving relief to PTs who must administer deep massage.

We should all be so lucky to have such a simple solution.

Rayknox
05-28-2007, 04:58 PM
The company you mention will not make a claim that does not have a clinical trial as proof. This is the company I am hoping will start a trial in the US in the near future. A deep massage !! Again you comment on something you know nothing about. There are two main modes to this treatment. The mobilisation mode which counter-rotates the vertebrae and the reflex mode which stimulates the spinal muscle reflexes. This latter mode is the the mode which gets the spine to straighten. The mobilisation purely frees up the joints. Obviously if the joints are stiff they will not straighten.
Maybe this is the reason for so many of the negative comments. No-one understands the treatment.
And who do you think is the 'maker' It is not this American company.It was designed by an engineer in England. And you will find that he claims the treatment reduces curvatures. I now know that he is correct.
I do not need to drum up business. I can barely cope with what I have.I only discovered this forum last week and thought it might be useful to someone to discuss my findings. If I wanted to get business I would have mentioned my web site. I had no intention of doing so but if you find it maybe you will learn more.
You do not state what sort of a medical professional you are. But unfortunately your response is typical of a lot of medical people - ' I have never heard of it or was not taught the treatment so obviously it must be rubbish'.

structural75
05-28-2007, 07:31 PM
Ray,

Very well put. I hope that you can see I'm not here to discredit you, but rather quite the contrary. I happen to agree with everything you stated in the last couple of posts, and even prior. And you're right, it did stir up an old argument... But as you can see, I have to watch my back constantly here and I was trying to wade gently without creating another disturbance for the sharks.

I really wish people would make some effort to understand how things work before casting negative remarks about them. And you're correct, it is not just the device that is important in treatment, but the skill of the person administering treatment with it. Same in my profession, some practitioners are much more skilled and effective at achieving change than others. And this will always be the case involving the human application of treatment. Just as some surgeons are bad, good and exceptional.

I don't know why people can't seem to understand this... after all, I hear them repeatedly praising the spinecor but questioning the people fitting the brace when it doesn't work. How is something like the TAMARS any different?

I agree completely that it's not rocket science to be able to see and palpate a curvature (and any subsequent changes). Anyone who can't probably should have no business working with the human body.

Karen,

My concern here, MR. Knox, that you are trying to drum up business on this forum-using a device for a disorder that the maker does not even claim it helps.
This should be right up your 'medically qualified' ally (Celia, you're going to love this one... another from "left field"). A new drug known as Lyrica recently hit the market (a few years back) and it was made, tested and intended for use solely on shingles and diabetic neuropathic pain. Now just about every pain management Doc out there is prescribing its use for a variety of forms of nerve pain that it was never tested for and DOES NOT claim to treat. Nor do we know anything about its long term effects. Is that appropriate use of medicine by Drs? If it helps people is it appropriate to use? We wouldn't be where we are today in the field of health care and medicine if those involved didn't think outside the box imposed upon them by their predecessors. Any individual with an ounce of common sense would, and should, be able to connect the dots and look at further benefits of any given therapy.

And how about Pilates? I know you're an advocate of it... so is it appropriate to utilize or promote its use as you have when it was never intended to treat scoliosis?

And "deep massage"???? How do you extract "deep massage" from a device called a "micro-manipulator"? Do you have any understanding at all about what this device is doing? Do you have any understanding of the properties of fascial tissue? Or it's scientifically validated response to intelligent manipulation? Or how about its role in forming and maintaining the structural integrity and position of our bodies? Do you know why bracing actually works sometimes and what it is doing to this network of tissue?

It doesn't seem as though some of you understand a bit of this and so I don't see how you're qualified to dismiss methods that work within this realm.


As a medical professional I cannot, for the life of me, see how it can reposition a scoliotic spine permanently. It might be great for back spasm and is touted as giving relief to PTs who must administer deep massage.That's unfortunate, maybe you should redefine your expertise as a "medical professional". What type is that again? Wasn't it something to do with drugs? I wouldn't expect you to know as most Drs don't have the slightest clue either.

Maybe this will help as a starting point: http://www.fascia2007.com/about.htm

structural

structural75
05-28-2007, 07:45 PM
Celia,

I've had enough of your questioning my chosen path and insulting my doctors. I'm perfectly aware that not everyone is having the same success and who knows what will happen during the adolescent growth spurt, ...I believe you're the one questioning my chosen path and insulting my methods... Right? All I've said to you is that you just can't say for sure what will happen. Unfortunately doubt and uncertainty permeate this topic of scoliosis relentlessly... in every matter at hand.

If you're aware that not everyone is having the same success then... What do YOU suggest they do?

You know, despite obvious disdain we display toward each other I can only wish and hope that someday you can open yourself up to consider the potential benefits of more than just bracing. It's a shotgun approach, not a bad one, but could still be nicely complimented with more specific intervention... Who knows, maybe along the way we would start to address the "unknown" cause(s) of this problem when we treat it more specifically, mindfully and intelligently.

And I'm sorry, but I don't have a need to prove anything to you, like it or not.

structural

Celia
05-28-2007, 08:44 PM
Karen,

I'm with you 100% of the way on this!!!! You go Girl!!!! :D

Celia
05-28-2007, 08:56 PM
Toni,

You don't really believe this charlatan do you????? He's agreeing to treat one of your friends for a couple of days, that proves nothing. On top of that no x-rays to show results!!!!! Ya, I know where this is going.... :rolleyes:

structural75
05-28-2007, 09:32 PM
Karen,

I'm with you 100% of the way on this!!!! You go Girl!!!! :D
Talk about chaining yourself to the titanic... !?

Celia
05-28-2007, 10:22 PM
I don't think even your hot air will suffice to keep you afloat with this one :D



Ray,

Very well put. I hope that you can see I'm not here to discredit you, but rather quite the contrary. I happen to agree with everything you stated in the last couple of posts, and even prior. l





-A very common cause of the scoliosis appears to be a fall on the bottom - falling on ice or off a trampoline are regular culprits. This compresses the spine and the spine then gradually twists. If the fall happens at a young age then, with growth, the scoliosis increases in severity. The TAMARS treatment frees up the spine and removes the twists, sometimes very spectacularly. Success is measured by complete removal of pain and or large reduction if not complete removal of curvatures.

-Can I state first of all that I got involved with this treatment because I had a son with 'idiopathic' scoliosis - lumbar and thoracic curvatures and a 2cm rib hump. I also had bad sciatic pain myself that I couild not get cured and my wife had a very badly twisted spine that was untreatable. We all now have backs that are practically normal. My son's scoliosis is 95% gone and there is no rib hump.

-80 degree curvatures are obviously much more difficult than actually getting patients before they have been allowed to progress to this stage. Especially if the scoliosis began in childhood. Every patient is different - some respond very quickly, some are very hard work but they all show a reduction - many to zero.

- a cerebral palsy patient, awaiting harrington rods to cure his scoliosis had his mainly lumbar curvature removed in two sessions. Unusually quick but true nevertheless. He returned a year later, out of his wheelchair with his spine in the same condition, and now riding motorcycles. In his words the fourth wonder of the world.

- My first attempts at severe scoliosis ie>60 degrees were not very successful - there were improvements but not enough for my requirements. However with time and practice I now expect good results. I have a number of severe and not so severe patients under treatment at the moment, ranging from 16 years to 50 years. Very considerable improvements have been made in all of them and pain is gone in all but the oldest patient who has had severe sciatica for many many years now.

-Wedge shaped vertebrae - this condition is seen as a major cause of kyphosis in ageing people. Generally we can remove this kyphosis, wedging or no wedging, and we find that there is a twist through the kyphosis. When the twist is reduced the kyphosis is reduced. We remove dowagers hump in the majority of patients.




Rayknox then states he is getting advice from his cat ??? :confused:



The 15 year old female patient that I mentioned was 2.5cm taller after her first treatment and this did not regress. You give me your scientific explanation of this! This patient by the way had x-rays, MRI scans, bone scans etc and never once was she told that she had curvatures. My cat could have seen the curvature when she lay down. My cat would now tell me the curvature is now gone.

structural75
05-28-2007, 10:46 PM
Celia,
What's your point? Do you have anything to say regarding your serious lack of knowledge on the subjects at hand? You've managed again to skirt around every question I ask and points on the matter that aren't insults or abusive remarks. You might want to take a step back and reconsider your purpose for posting this slanderous non-sense and abuse. It seems you may have some serious insecurities.

I'm sure your making the right decisions for yourself and your daughter... but remember they are yours, and only yours to make. If others chose to educate themselves in the larger world beyond bracing alone, then let them. Nobody needs your abuse or conspiracy theories. It serves no productive purpose and detracts from the quality of these discussions.

p.s.-I think the comment regarding his cat was sarcasm. ;) That's just my opinion.... but hey, what do I know?

gerbo
05-29-2007, 05:17 AM
It does appear that practitioners using unproven methods have a lot to loose from proper evidence as it might just show that what they are selling to the unsuspecting public has no real value, or might even be harmful and they would be at risk of loosing their livelihood. As lots of "alternative" practitioners make a good living out of selling "hope" (which might be false hope) they have nothing to gain from evidence of effectiveness and will resist therefore proper scientific evaluation of their methods. Evidence is their enemy

As patients, or parents of patients, we are in the exactly opposite position as with the wide range of treatmentoptions on the table, and knowing that time doesn't work in our favour, we need the best available evidence to decide which treatment to choose. we cannot afford to loose time on something what at best makes no difference and at worse could make things worse. Evidence is our friend (although it can be a very harsh and painfully honest friend, like any good friend should be)

Two guiding principles;
1) Lack of evidence of benefit= lack of evidence of potential harmfulness
2) False hope = worse than no hope (whilst providing a good income to the practitioner dealing in it)

Celia
05-29-2007, 06:06 AM
Celia,
What's your point? Do you have anything to say regarding your serious lack of knowledge on the subjects at hand? You've managed again to skirt around every question I ask and points on the matter that aren't insults or abusive remarks. You might want to take a step back and reconsider your purpose for posting this slanderous non-sense and abuse. It seems you may have some serious insecurities.

:D UNBELIEVABLE!!!!


Gerbo,

Of course!!!! This explains lack published studies....Gerbo you are one smart dude!!!! Needless to say this will have no impact on these delusional practitioners who have their heads in the clouds and their eyes firmly set on their bank accounts. Don't hold your breath because there is sure to be an extra long winded novel by "he who must be obeyed" :rolleyes:

Rayknox
05-29-2007, 08:09 AM
As I have already stated, we are trying to get the proper evidence, to show to patients or parents that this treatment is of benefit. I understand your reasoning that patients do not want to go down a route that might prove useless or even dangerous. I would feel exactly the same. However if another sufferer came to me and said that he, or a child of theirs was well improved after one of these treatments, then I would certainly look at it. The treatment worked for my son so I have first hand experience.

structural75
05-29-2007, 08:22 AM
Gerbo,


It does appear that practitioners using unproven methods have a lot to loose from proper evidence as it might just show that what they are selling to the unsuspecting public has no real value, or might even be harmful and they would be at risk of loosing their livelihood.It appears the same for your Drs who are promoting this brace only to find it is producing secondary curves of supposedly "no consequence". We all know that if I worked with someone and they developed a secondary curve as a result you'd be all over me casting doubts... Am I right?

I would love for someone with a deep pocket such as your doctors and brace company to offer the money to fund a study. Unfortunately I make a humble but adequate living and I don't have the deep pocket you're suggesting I do. If what I did was a scam then why do people continue to come and then get on with their lives in a better place without ongoing treatment for years to come? There's no way you can sit there and tell me, or anyone on this forum, that what I do is ineffective.

And in case you hadn't read my previous posts, I run a not-for-profit childrens scoliosis clinic. No Profit... No Charge... as I'm fully aware that parents are already in debt trying to cover their conventional medical expenses. And even if there were studies 'proving' positive effects, I wouldn't charge for it. That's what I consider "false hope". Relying on studies that show far less than 100% results only to have only a handful achieve that success (such as the case with bracing). How many people utilize bracing with the "hope" it will work only to discover years later it didn't matter?

It's interesting to note that despite your "evidence" based approach you are dealing with a rather tenacious secondary curve brought on by your "evidence" supported brace. ??? What happened to do no harm? Do you in fact know for certain that the brace is NOT causing harm? Is there a study in your library of info that 'proves' this supposed fact?

Again, neither you nor some others here have the slightest bit of understanding about these methods, even the mechanism behind the bracing. So you can cast doubt into this forum about other approaches causing potential harm, but until you get the slightest clue about what you're talking about from a real life anatomical/physiological standpoint then you have absolutely no idea what you're suggesting.

If neither of you can have a discussion or an interest in understanding the mechanisms behind how these things work (including your brace) then I see no point in continuing down this path again.

structural

gerbo
05-29-2007, 09:39 AM
this is how one looks at available evidence re bracing;

there is a multitude of studies which show that patients being treated with hard braces do better than people not being treated (other factors being the same). However these studies also show that a group will progress regardless of bracing, but that group is smaller in the "braced" group. As a parent (or clinician) you make the judgement that "based on the available evidence" you have a better chance controlling scoliosis with a brace, than without; but no garantee!!

with regard to spinecor; there is currently only one big published study, which happens to show much better outcomes than not bracing, and even better outcomes than hardbracing.

However, is is clear from available evidence (so no hiding or pretending there) that not everybody benefits from it. Once again; the chance that you avoid surgery is bigger when you use the spinecor compared to not using anything, but there are no garantees.

There are lots of other factors which have to be taken into account but at least with spinecor and other forms of bracing we have something to base our decisions on.

with regards to the effectiveness of your treatment; I am sure that we have agreed in the past that your treatment might make people feel better, but has never significantly improved the curve of a scoliosis patient, or stopped its progression. Or are you claiming again that it does?

And why do people keep coming? In desperation hope is very seductive..... (been there, done that....) And no doubt, a good relaxing backmassage does anybody the world of good (but as far as the available evidence suggest will not improve anybody's scoliosis)

structural75
05-29-2007, 10:27 AM
Gerbo,

1) It has clinically proven to change a scoliotic curvature. Whether or not it's in a study does not negate its reality. http://erikdalton.com/articles.htm#Scoliosis:%20A%20Case%20Study

but has never significantly improved the curve of a scoliosis patient,Interesting that you're now stating supposed facts with not an ounce of proof to back it up. Where did you get this stat from? Have you spoken with anyone and everyone with scoliosis who has utilized this approach? In addition, it has been very successful at treating many conditions that conventional medicine could not affect. Do your research!

2) Structural integration/fascial manipulation has nothing to do with massage! Please educate yourself before making such assumptions. It is sometimes referred to as such because many folks need something to compare it to to understand it. Otherwise, it has nothing to do with relaxing muscles or stimulating blood flow, as massage is intended to do. www.theiasi.org

3) People come to me often after more conventional and widely accepted methods fail to achieve the desired effect. I don't continuing treating anyone if we aren't getting results (for any condition).

Celia
05-29-2007, 10:59 AM
I vaguely recall the title of this thread is TAMARS rather than STRUCTURAL INTEGRATION!!!! :eek: Gerbo, I urge you not to provide what's his name a forum to advertise his unsubstantiated methods whether or not they are "non profit" I find these claims hard to believe as well, since his credibility is virtually nil with me at this point.

zuma
05-29-2007, 11:03 AM
Just a couple of questions i picked up from reading posts in this thread

Celia you mentioned that spinecor doesn't cost you because you are insured, my understanding of insurance is that once you make a claim it pushes up premiums so you are paying for it in reality as the more we claim the more we pay.

Gerbo, in your last reply you didn't answer the question of the secondary curve that seems to develop in a number of cases (if you did sorry i missed it).

Just one other point wasn't spinecor at one time classed as being "left field" and out on the edge its in developmental stages, were people as cynical then about spinecor as a number seem to be about certain treatments that are now "left field" and out on the edge of so called mainstream treatments.

Why can't we all live and co exist with one another in harmony instead of always trying to discredit after all the reason why were all here is we are either suffering ourselves, doing our best for our loved ones or trying our best to control this dam condition.

Ray, i hope you get the study of the ground with the university and it proves to be a massive success it would be great to read a success story instead of all this negativity

z

p.s. i never seen a poor surgeon

Celia
05-29-2007, 11:38 AM
...Celia you mentioned that spinecor doesn't cost you because you are insured, my understanding of insurance is that once you make a claim it pushes up premiums so you are paying for it in reality as the more we claim the more we pay.


Thank you for pointing out the obvious to me, I'm well aware how insurance works and I don't believe the majority of people are going to put in a claim for the spinecor brace. Last time I checked most insurance companies weren't suffering financially ;)



...Why can't we all live and co exist with one another in harmony instead of always trying to discredit after all the reason why were all here is we are either suffering ourselves, doing our best for our loved ones or trying our best to control this dam condition..

You should address your question directly to what's his name, since he made the following comments. I'm all for peace, love, harmony and touchy feely moments but certainly not with someone as abusive and downright rude. This man professes to be an "MD" and is treating children???





...You're a heartless #@$@$! You have some real balls to question and belittle my personal experience and suggest that I'm being dishonest. I'm glad your daughter's doing well and hope it continues, ...update me when she's quite a bit older though, and finished her major growth spurts.

What's your point? Do you have anything to say regarding your serious lack of knowledge on the subjects at hand? You've managed again to skirt around every question I ask and points on the matter that aren't insults or abusive remarks. You might want to take a step back and reconsider your purpose for posting this slanderous non-sense and abuse. It seems you may have some serious insecurities...

Karen Ocker
05-29-2007, 02:11 PM
Mr. Knox/structural

Electrical stimulation was widely tried in the 1980's. Sounded great in some smaller studies. Here is a study with a long follow up I found in the National Library of Medicine:

1: Clin Orthop Relat Res. 1988 Apr;(229):107-13. Links
Electrical stimulation in the treatment of idiopathic scoliosis.O'Donnell CS, Bunnell WP, Betz RR, Bowen JR, Tipping CR.
Thomas Jefferson University Hospital, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Sixty-two fully compliant patients (with 94 curves) met protocol criteria of 20 degree-39 degree curves, Risser iliac crest signs of 0, 1, or 2, and no prior treatment. Both clinical and roentgenographic examinations were performed before, during, and after treatment. The follow-up periods averaged 2.3 years, with a 3.2-year average follow-up period for patients who completed, rather than failed, Electro Spinal Orthosis (ESO) treatment. Seventy-one percent of the 20 degree-29 degree curves and 66% of the 30 degree-39 degree curves had progressed 5 degrees or more at follow-up evaluation. Fifty percent of the patients had a follow-up curve of at least 40 degrees or were treated by posterior spinal fusion and were considered treatment failures. The curve progression paralleled that found in natural history studies, and the rate of failure exceeded that found in orthotic treatment studies.

PMID: 3258214 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Regarding Pilates:
I have been practicing that modality for at least 7 years: Two years before my revision in 2002 and since then. I was fortunate to have a dedicated certified instructor who worked around my situation. It is very hard work and requires continuous committment. It had nothing to do with "abs" being an American dream. It had helped reduce pain pre-op and helped me regain conditioning post-op which keeps me totally pain free.

FYI Joseph Pilates was a nurse working with the war injured in England. He devised various exercises/equipment with which the soldiers could regain as much function as possible. Those techniques are employed in the Pilates methods.
No one I ever met in that program asserted that Pilates improved scoliosis but it did gave me an improved stamina and muscle strength despite my long fusion.

Regarding Tamars: Approach the Scoliosis Research Society with your ideas.

In the US, a study must be cleared by an IRB (institutional review board) to make sure it has a reasonable hypothesis and the risks/possible benefits to the proposed treatments are made known to the prospective patients. The risks being harm from delayed treatment or in fact FROM the treatment. Most studies do not require the patient to pay out of pocket but are paid from grants.

Ninety-nine percent of us on this forum are sufferers of this heartbreaking disorder called scoliosis. We share our experience, strength and hope with each other thus we have a special validity. Many others have posted great NEW ways to help us. Many of us have tried, spending lots of money.

When someone posts saying scoliosis resulted from a "fall on the bottom" it comes across to us as totally ludicrous when a familial gene has been identified as causing "idiopathic" scoliosis.
Not using x-rays or at least a MRI to assess scoliosis is irresponsible. What if there is a tumor or other defect not visible to the naked eye?

If you are so successful as you claim, word of mouth will spread far and wide and the medical establishment won't be far behind. In the meantime it looks like a hard sell.




Please do us a favor and don't waste our time.

tonibunny
05-29-2007, 03:12 PM
Toni,

You don't really believe this charlatan do you????? He's agreeing to treat one of your friends for a couple of days, that proves nothing. On top of that no x-rays to show results!!!!! Ya, I know where this is going.... :rolleyes:

Hey Celia ;)

I'm interested that Ray's actually seeking to have proper scientific studies done by a prestigious London university. You know as well as I do that these studies will HAVE to include x-rays as proof :) I can't believe anything without x-rays, and I can't recommend a treatment like this to anyone without evidence taken from solid independent research, but I respect the fact that Ray's making the effort to get that research done. That seems like a lot more than most "alternative practitioners" here seem to be prepared to do!

I couldn't send a friend or acquaintance along to Ray without the evidence from proper studies either (as staff at SSO I couldn't put someone at any sort of risk from an untested treatment), but I respect the fact that he's put his money where his mouth is and said "yes OK, send someone to me and I'll treat them for free so you can see the results". Again this isn't something I've ever seen another alternative practitioner do. If I wasn't already fused I'd take him up on his offer myself :D

There are a few things that I don't really agree with (ie the idea that scoliosis is caused by a fall, and that Ray could see a curve that was missed on x-ray and MRI). These things will come out in the scientific studies though. I respect Ray for answering all my questions, and basically I'm reserving judgement until I get to see the studies. I think that's fair :D

Rayknox
05-29-2007, 04:29 PM
Electrical stimulation- where has this come from- is this all you know about the TAMARS treatment. Get your facts right before you bring up such rubbish. There is nothing electrical about TAMARS.
Reputation far and wide- does the fact that the average time patients take to get to our clinic is about 2 hours. Some come from 400 miles away which is as far as you can get on this island. We have regular patients from England and the occasional one from America. This is all because of our reputation. Which is spread by our patients. We are getting favourable comments from orthopaedic surgeons and we are treating GP's who cannot get sorted anywhere else. We have had nurses sent by hospitals and we have treated dozens of nurses.
We must be doing something right.
If I read things correctly, a gene has not been found that causes I.S. It sounds more like a gene has been found in patients that have developed I.S. that is not present in normal patients. Who knows what this gene does. It may just make some people more flexible or something of that nature.
If the other postings you do to these forums are like this then I feel sorry for the forum.

structural75
05-29-2007, 10:13 PM
Celia,

This man professes to be an "MD" and is treating children???When did I profess to be an MD???? Have you stooped so low as to outright lie? You're nuts!

Karen,

Who suggested electric stimulation as a treatment for scoliosis? Certainly not Ray or myself... As a "medical professional" you should know that electric stim. is not going to have any effect on a scoliotic curvature. Why the IRB wasted time and money on that "reasonable hypothesis" is beyond me.

Pilates - No need to explain it, I've done it myself for a brief time and I have several colleagues who are certified Pilates instructors in addition to their more primary credentials. What I find ironic is that you trust a Pilates instructor to manage your scoliosis. Are you aware that their training is minimal, revolves around learning and teaching the exercises, consists of VERY basic anatomy and virtually no physiology training, and they are NOT trained adequately if at all to address musculoskeletal dysfunctions (unless they are also a PT or such). Joseph Pilates developed his exercises to first and foremost treat his rickets, among other childhood illnesses he had. Its original name, 'Contrology', as given by Joseph was designed to give him stability which he lacked from the rickets.


In the US, a study must be cleared by an IRB (institutional review board) to make sure it has a reasonable hypothesis and the risks/possible benefits to the proposed treatments are made known to the prospective patients. The risks being harm from delayed treatment or in fact FROM the treatment. Most studies do not require the patient to pay out of pocket but are paid from grants.Would you consider the secondary curves imposed by the spinecor brace to be a harmful?


The risks being harm from delayed treatment or in fact FROM the treatment.Herein lays a major problem with these "studies". In order to validate something to people like you we have to put people at risk by having them stop any other form of treatment. I have always advocated the adjunctive use of these types of approaches. The advantage to not having an exclusionary study is that we don't put people at risk by asking them to stop current methods of treatment.


When someone posts saying scoliosis resulted from a "fall on the bottom" it comes across to us as totally ludicrous when a familial gene has been identified as causing "idiopathic" scoliosis.
Not using x-rays or at least a MRI to assess scoliosis is irresponsible. What if there is a tumor or other defect not visible to the naked eye?Nobody said ALL scoliosis is caused by a coccyx injury... but some most certainly are... Do you have evidence showing the contrary or was that another unsubstantiated claim?. As Ray mentioned, the gene was not shown to "cause" scoliosis, it was simply present in SOME individuals with scoliosis. That leaves a lot yet to be discovered and clarified. You should be ashamed as a medical prof. stretching the truth like that just to try and validate your argument. As for x-rays/MRI... My patients use them under the care of their MD specialists. Who said I didn't?

It's only a waste of time for those too ignorant/stubborn to open themselves up to other possibilities and approaches.

structural75
05-29-2007, 10:31 PM
And you're all completely avoiding my questions regarding your understanding of why and how these methods work (including bracing). If you can't give me, and other inquiring members of this forum, a sound anatomical and physiological reason why these approaches are 'supposedly' ineffective, then quit your ignorant bantering. Not one of you have any legitimate reason why these methods couldn't be effective in some cases other than your own fear that you haven't made the best possible decisions yourself if they were.

The least you can do is make some kind of mature attempt to understand some things you obviously aren't informed about. You don't even understand how the braces that your using work!!!??? And the only argument you ever put forth is about the lack of studies. Doesn't anyone have a mind of their own. Here you talk about wasting precious time on "alternative" treatments and in the meantime you're sitting on your hands waiting for the next study to arrive to give you all the answers. (Not to mention the brace is failing some and causing relatively serious complications in others) How long do you wait to consider a more comprehensive, responsive and intelligent approach (bracing + ?)?

If you'd rather sit on your hands and wait, then fine. But you have no right to try and comment on things that you don't understand, especially when those comments are meant to discredit.

gerbo
05-30-2007, 05:05 AM
once again, on general principle, simply because without evidence of effectiveness we do not know whether we could be doing more harm than good......

(and if we wanted to consider choosing something "additional" on top of bracing , based on the persuasive say-so or personal experience or divine gifts or aggressive sales tactics of the practioner involved there is so much to choose from that one wouldn't know where to start; raindrop therapy, SI, pyramid therapy, colourtherapy, chiropracters (in lots of different shades) laying on of hands, dancing round a campfire at midnight whilst chanting traditional dutch nursery rhymes; the list of "alternatives" is endless.)

I have never said that within that labyrinth of "alternatives" there might not be something that actually works, and who knows, TAMAR could be one of them, but the only way of knowing would be through proper and plausible documentation of what the starting position is (and there is no substitute for x-rays, clever black cats or not) and what the change is after short or longterm application of the treatment involved. And once again, xrays will provide the hard evidence.

Any significant scoliosis should be under consultant supervision anyway, so xrays and their results should be available (if only via GP) Any unexpected and miraculous improvement would without doubt be picked up and documented. Although collecting that type of information doesn't constitute proper science as such, at least it is a beginning.

structural75
05-30-2007, 06:05 AM
Gerbo,

Avoiding the issues raised once again... have you any response to my questions other than "we need studies" and "scientific medicine"? Anyhow, SI has been scientifically validated to alter physical structure and function. Why is it SOOOO hard for you to consider its applicability to scoliosis. It's just a label, not a DISEASE pal!

(and if we wanted to consider choosing something "additional" on top of bracing , based on the persuasive say-so or personal experience or divine gifts or aggressive sales tactics of the practioner involved there is so much to choose from that one wouldn't know where to start; raindrop therapy, SI, pyramid therapy, colourtherapy, chiropracters (in lots of different shades) laying on of hands, dancing round a campfire at midnight whilst chanting traditional dutch nursery rhymes; the list of "alternatives" is endless.)Actually, you would have an idea as to where to start if you had even the slightest understanding of how the brace was potentially effective. Again, studies and "science" aren't what make something, including braces, effective... If you took the time to learn a little something on your own maybe you could make a sound decision.

Now you're lumping SI into the same category as raindrop therapy, chiropractics, laying on of hands, etc??? You're absurd... Keep sitting on your hands while the curve develops... .

structural75
05-30-2007, 06:35 AM
Gerbo,

Do you have any sound anatomical reason why SI or TAMARS would not be potentially beneficial?


You rant about causing more harm but as I see it your brace could be causing more harm than good as evident by the new curve. You claim it's of no consequence because it's not structural, yet I'm sure the original curve wasn't structural because if it were bracing wouldn't correct it. You refuse to acknowledge that there is an underlaying cause to the curve and that by forcing it back with a brace without considering its cause you could be doing more harm than good, as evident by the fact that her body has induced another curvature. Again, this wouldn't be acceptable if it resulted from an "alternative" treatment. Just because your Drs don't see anything on an x-ray/MRI doesn't mean that something isn't causing it. Not all causes are visible through imaging scans... connective tissue disorders, asymmetric tension on the dura around the spinal cord, etc... .

So how would the use of manual treatments be any more harmful than using an inanimate device to FORCE the curve back? The human hand could detect and treat abnormalities that a brace cannot. You're tactics here are strictly fear based... you still haven't given me a reason why a manual approach combined with bracing wouldn't, or couldn't, be useful. You're logic is completely unsubstantiated. Ridicule all you like...

And give your 'financial interest' theories a rest... I'm obviously not here promoting my private practice, I'm just trying to create awareness of some things not yet published in a study.

Karen Ocker
05-30-2007, 08:38 AM
Structural quote:

What I find ironic is that you trust a Pilates instructor to manage your scoliosis

My surgeon is in full agreement with this used as a fitness adjunct not as "managing" my scoliosis. A Pilates program is offered at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York city as an adjunct not a treatment which they find helpful.

Interestingly, my Pilates instructor recommended I try(pre-op and now if I want SI/Rolfing)--but after hearing you it does not appeal and I am doing well as is.

I am going hiking in the Alps-leaving today so I will be off the forum for awhile. :p

structural75
05-30-2007, 10:28 AM
Karen,
That's great. So if your Doctor recommended Pilates, despite you having scoliosis and Pilates has not been 'proven' in any studies to be helpful OR harmful (ode to Gerbo), then why your aversion to SI or TAMARS? I came to this forum with the same compassionate mentality that your well respected Pilates instructor has for you... to share information on methods that might prove useful to varying degrees for individuals. All you've done, with the help of others, is try to discredit its relevance and dismiss it as non-sense without any knowledge of it whatsoever. ?????

You might be interested to know that SI has also been instituted into various hospitals throughout the country. Whether you're aware of this or not doesn't give you the right to dismiss it.

Here's what some real "medical professionals" have to say about it.


Dr. Irene Grant is an Internal Medicine and Infectious Disease Specialist in New York City. She is currently on the teaching faculty at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at New York Medical College.
She had a very bad whiplash injury when she was a child, which created problems in her neck, similar to scoliosis. An Osteopath referred her to Structural Integration. Irene says, "After ten sessions I noticed that my posture improved, my chronic neck pain was significantly relieved, and I had much more energy. Further treatments brought progressive freedom. I experienced major changes. The most amazing thing is that I am now pain free."
Irene has been receiving Structural Integration sessions now weekly, for the past two and a half years. "I am very impressed with Structural Integration and have referred a lot of patients to Structural Integration, including Scoliosis patients. Structural Integration is a wonderful method that can rehabilitate and reverse injuries."

Dr. Mary Kay Brewster is an OB GYN, Medical Doctor in Carmel, California. She tried Structural Integration to alleviate low back pain and sciatica. She states, “I was in pain 90% of the time and now I am pain free. Everyday I recommend Structural Integration to friends, family, colleagues and patients.”

Jim Mongomery, MD, an orthopedic surgeon in Dallas, Texas, often refers his clients to Rolfing. "I send a variety of my clients to a Certified Advanced Rolfer, Nicholas French. People with shoulder and elbow problems, with scar tissue resulting from injury or surgery, chronic hamstring problems, low back and cervical spine problems. People that have had chronic problems that have not been helped by anything else. All those people can be helped with Rolfing."

Certified Advanced Rolfer and MD, Dr. Bret Nye, speaks about alternative/complementary medicine, a cost effective, alternative to surgery and drugs - "Demand for the services of health practitioners like Rolfers is growing as evidenced by the Nov. 98 JAMA estimate of $21.2 billion being spent for alternative medicine in 97. Integrative health care, is a new trend, that combines Western and complementary medicines to offer the best technological advances in health care. Health insurance companies are increasingly becoming interested in therapies like Rolfing not only as potential cost effective alternatives or complements to traditional modalities, but as opportunities to provide coverage for services that will distinguish them in an increasingly competitive market place of providers."

Larry Dossey, M.D., best-selling author: "There is one major reason to take Rolfing® seriously: it works. Not only can it dramatically change people's bodies, it can transform their lives as well. Rolfing is powerful stuff."

SI has been around for half a century... just because you aren't familiar with it doesn't detract from its value here. I'm sure the same would ring true for TAMARS.

Enjoy the Alps!

tonibunny
05-30-2007, 12:22 PM
Structural, may I ask a (respectful) question? :)

Ray is seeking to get scientific studies done by a prestigious university in London, to prove the usefulness of his TAMARS treatment in treating scoliosis.

Are you currently doing the same thing to gain scientific proof for the ability of Structural Integration to cure scoliosis and your theory that scoliosis is usually caused by SI joint subluxation, and if not, why not?

As a responsible patient, I would need to have some sort of scientific evidence that the treatment I was going to pay for actually worked. I would expect the inventors/discoverers of alternative treatments to seek to have proper studies done, and if they weren't doing so then that would start alarm bells ringing in my head.

Cheers,

Toni

structural75
05-30-2007, 03:32 PM
Toni,

Yes, by all means, ask away.

But first... Hold the phone... !


Are you currently doing the same thing to gain scientific proof for the ability of Structural Integration to cure scoliosis and your theory that scoliosis is usually caused by SI joint subluxation,IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM WAS THAT "SI JOINT SUBLUXATION " THEORY MINE, THAT BELONGED TO EXPATIENT! Please do re-read that thread, as I DO NOT wish to be mistaken for such claims. In fact, I responded along with you on that topic trying to clarify why Expatient's theory was not very sound.

Ok, now that we've clarified that absurdity... Secondly, I have always stated that it is sometimes effective in slowing, stopping or reducing curvatures to varying degrees. I wouldn't use the word cure for ANY scoliosis treatment... a cure is something you administer which eliminates the problem... a cure is not random, inconsistent and unpredictable like all scoliosis treatments are. Nor does a cure create further complications and problems down the road as surgery often does. Those are not cures, they are simply the best solution we have at this point.

Only a portion of my practice is work with children and adults with scoliosis. The rest are folks with a variety of issues etc... . I would love to gain "scientific proof" of such regarding SI and scoliosis, ...as I gain some time to do it properly. I am looking to begin a research project in conjunction with an MD in Physical Medicine here in the States, Dr. Tom Findley (He was a presenter at the recent Boston Conference for non-surgical approaches to spinal deformities - more on him at www.rolfdoc.com). He is also the Director of Research for the Rolf Institute of Structural Integration and a certified advanced SI practitioner. In fact, Dr. Findley introduced Dr. Rolf (founder of the work) in the 70's to Georgetown University where she herself pursued her own research following her stint at Columbia Univ.(she was a research scientist of biochemistry... is that not "scientific"?).

Yes, we as a profession have a Research department of which they have done studies in a number of fields utilizing the work. It is not that they aren't interested in scoliosis (quite the contrary) but with the variety of conditions that this work has successfully treated, there will always be ones that have yet to hit the proving grounds. So the work has been validated "scientifically" in other respects, just not in the one you're interested in... So that doesn't make it an unscientific discipline as some of you are suggesting, nor has it been proven 'ineffective'. Besides, the work was developed by a scientist (biochemist) who spent her life doing research on a component of the human body (the most abundant substance besides water mind you), connective tissue/fascia, that was otherwise largely neglected by other Drs and scientists up to that point. Now, thanks to Dr. Rolf's work and the efforts of her predecessors there is an International Fascial Research Congress at Harvard Medical School this year bringing together the top scientists and researchers throughout the world in a variety of fields to discuss the importance, significance and newly discovered role this substance has in a variety of realms... from cell biology, genetic morphology and disease like cancer to structural/physical deformities and dysfunctions. www.fascia2007.com

I believe that a study involving SI and scoliosis would be performed most effectively and credibly if headed by one of the primary Institutes for the work, or the International organization (IASI). With the incredibly skeptical scrutiny of folks like yourself out there (understandable by the way) it doesn't appear as though any of you would accept a 'small' study done by moi. So keep your eyes open and ears alert to "scientific" evidence someday, it will no doubt exist. For now, you're welcome to be skeptical, but trashing this method with no knowledge of it is simply inappropriate.. I wish that would stop.

Please keep in mind that many of your "scientifically proven" methods are failing people as well. They are not "cures". They are the 'currently accepted and acknowledged best shots'.

I know that's all a bit much but what did you expect... :) Toni, don't take my tone at times personally.... I get irritated trying to constantly clarify myself (as in the SI joint sublux theory that wasn't mine!)... .

Good day
structural

tonibunny
05-30-2007, 04:21 PM
Oh my goodness, I am REALLY sorry Structural, that was a genuine mistake! :eek: It's been a while since we were on that thread and I got confused. Please accept my apologies!

It was actually Expatient that I had in mind for getting studies done; it was he who was claiming that scoliosis was almost certainly caused by SI joint subluxation and that it could be completely "cured" (I don't believe scoli can be "cured" totally either). Since this seems like a miracle, I would hope that he'd be seeking to share his discoveries with scientific researchers!

As far as Rolfing goes, I know that it can be of great help in relieving pain, but I would still want to see scientific studies if I were to choose this treatment to actually help improve scoliosis. I'm glad that you'll be seeking to get these studies done when you have the time to do so :)

Rayknox
05-30-2007, 05:00 PM
Now that we have all gone round in circles and everyone has bitten everyone else's head off is it not the purpose of this forum to investigate, and examine possible treatments for scoliosis. :)
The knowledge of TAMARS is obviously very limited judging from some of the comments, but don't ignore it. You may be very surprised at what it can do in the right hands. I may not have the evidence being demanded but evidence there certainly is in the shape of the patients who have had their spines re-shaped. TAMARS takes the pressure off discs by freeing up the joints and straightening the spine by untwisting it. So in reality it is removing degrees of scoliosis every time it is used. The results are visible even though I am ridiculed for saying this. Fly in and watch treatments Toni. Then you can make your own mind up.

gerbo
05-31-2007, 02:37 AM
The knowledge of TAMARS is obviously very limited judging from some of the comments, but don't ignore it. You may be very surprised at what it can do in the right hands. I may not have the evidence being demanded but evidence there certainly is in the shape of the patients who have had their spines re-shaped.

I am not cynical here, but intrigued. Evidence might not be available currently, but would be so easy to collect as anybody with a significant scoliosis will have their condition medically documented somewhere. Any significant improvement should also be recorded somewhere. How willing would you be to get that information ???(your clients should be able to ask their GPs for copies of relevant letters of consultants???)

Ofcourse Structural could do the same, and set himself apart (which I'd love him to do)from the wide range of alternative practitioners from which he claims to be different (but in the end they all claim the same things, with the same observational "evidence", and all with their own beliefsystems in which they have an unshakable belief)

edd
05-31-2007, 04:46 AM
If you'd rather sit on your hands and wait, then fine. But you have no right to try and comment on things that you don't understand, especially when those comments are meant to discredit.

Very well said,.... as a father of a scoliotic daughter my first option will be to try alternative treatment first. I'm sure lots among you will disagree with me that the present conventional treatment of "wait & see, wait & brace & wait & cut" is not a cure (this is just my point of view which I don't impose on anyone), I agree that for others this could be the only option..... Scientific studies and documentations and results takes a long time, while my daughter's curve continue to progress, until i have no other alternative but to put her to surgery, as remedy and not cure.

I might spend lots of money for nothing, so what? but at least I tried doing something, instead of just waiting...... lots of people will spend so much more just to jump off a plane or climb mountains......

Who knows, one of these alternative or combined of these treatments might be the standard accepted treatment in the future? All treatments started and were used in just few people......Majority means just more people are on the other side of the line.

Galileo get laughed at and declared heretic when he proclaimed that the sun revolves around the earth, not the other way around...

edd
father to denisse
T37/ L 35
opt for Schroth Technique

Rayknox
05-31-2007, 05:16 AM
Gerbo,
I am continually trying to get information from doctors. I have to request it via the patient but it is so frustrating as I have been waiting for months now for x-rays etc from several scoliosis opatients, one of whom has decided her back is so good she is refusing surgery. And I do not make recommendation as to that effect. I let the patients decide for themselves. If a surgeon recommends surgery I do not interfere.

Edd,
I agree with your point ie this watching and waiting system which gives no option in a lot of cases except major surgery. Obviously if the treatment has no history of helping then you are throwing your money away, and there are lots of those about. I originally posted here because of the results I was getting, and these results came about after treating patients for back pain. To get rid of the back pain you have to reduce the scoliosis.
My experience also is that the earlier I get the patient the easier they are to help. Unfortunately a large number of my patients have had scoliosis under the magical surgical necessary curvature for anything up to 50 years. And they are tough. But they do change.

gerbo
05-31-2007, 05:20 AM
I am the last one to sit on my hands as I cannot afford doing so considering the condition of my daughter

If you are in a similar situation, and considering their are so many alternatives of offer, you do not want to waste your time on something what has no evidence of benefit, but focus you effort and time and money on approaches which have the best possible chance of succes? You cannot afford to do that as time isn't on your side!

it is interesting that you are using the schroth therapy. Practitioners of that approach have made great efforts providing scientific evidence of its effectiveness and deserve to be applauded for that. I would definiely consider schroth to be a "credible" alternative.

Interestingly though, when i looked into that treatment, and asked about it on german forums (schroth comes from germany) the very clear message I got was; by all means try schroth, but not without good bracing, which they considered even more important.

For that matter, they were very negative about the quality of bracing in UK and USA, which they felt did not provide enough correction and was bound to fail

Thought you might find that interesting.....

gerbo
05-31-2007, 05:25 AM
Ray, it should be so easy, you do not need the xrays, just the letters documenting the condition. Pt should get them from their GP no problem. additionally, you could ask them to tell their story on scoliosis-support.org, so "we" can ask them directly about their experiences.

Rayknox
05-31-2007, 05:40 AM
I am seeing some of these in the next few days and I will try and get them to do as you suggest.

structural75
05-31-2007, 06:26 AM
Gerbo,

Ofcourse Structural could do the same, and set himself apart (which I'd love him to do)from the wide range of alternative practitioners from which he claims to be different (but in the end they all claim the same things, with the same observational "evidence", and all with their own belief systems in which they have an unshakable belief)I'm sorry you can't see how SI is different from raindrop therapy in its premise, methodology and effect.?? It is not a "claim" to be different, it is a pure fact. Now again, if you took a moment to educate yourself about HOW these approaches work and WHAT they do to the body anatomically and physiogically then maybe you wouldn't have such a hard time considering its potential importance here. Also note that I have repeated suggested using this, or any other sound method, in combination with the bracing or other 'conventional' widely accepted methods. Yet you continue to suggest that I'm asking people to replace their current treatment methods with another. I have never asked a patient to do such a thing.

And my professions "belief system" has been proven in scientific clinical studies to alter the overall human structure, change alignment and improve physiologic function. Now I agree, I would also like to see that scientifically documented via a study as it pertains to scoliosis, but it is not far fetched whatsoever to 'believe' or suggest that its effect on scoliosis couldn't be the same for some. If it has been documented to show the reduction of things such as kyphosis and excessive lordosis or 'flat back syndrome', then where's the stretch you're saying exists regarding scoliosis? It is ludicrous to believe that an inanimate brace can force a curve back without addressing any specific anatomical component of the curve, but the same couldn't be done with highly specific manual intervention.... that logic isn't suffice. I still haven't heard your response on why or how this is any different from bracing. The only reason you continue to lump it in with esoteric and unrelated methods is because you have no idea how it works or what it actually does, and you don't seem to care.

structural

p.s. - If your not sitting on your hands what are you doing?

gerbo
05-31-2007, 07:47 AM
In all fairness, if structural would live closeby, I'd visit him, if only to see what he does, well, that's to say, if my daughter would agree as clearly she is getting thoroughly fed up with all these different people she is and has been seeing, staring at her back and ofcourse, this is another reason we cannot try everything as it involves young people at a sensitive age, with their own views and opinions and a busy life as it is.

Seeing obviously doesn't mean believing as the similarly confident chiropracter we saw in the early days had an approach which even our guinee pigs would have seen was never going to do anything, so, that did not last long....

Structural, you should know what i am doing; spinecor, torsorotation most actively whilst still in two minds about restarting some stretching.

gerbo
(trying to keep the temperature down)

Rayknox
05-31-2007, 10:49 AM
How advanced is your daughters scoliosis, and what age is she now?
Ray

structural75
05-31-2007, 01:30 PM
Gerbo,
I'm all for lowering the temperature on this one....

But keep in mind, chiropractic is very different from what I do... there is no comparison to be made there. I'm glad you were able to see through your chiros theory, whatever that was, before getting too involved. I think it's best to try and understand how something works (its premise and methodology) before attempting it or considering it for its potential use.

I think you have the right idea with torsorotations and stretching etc.... I am merely suggesting a similar but more precise and trained eye and hand. That's all. It is not far from what you're currently doing, if not extremely similar. I think if one were to deem stretching without professional guidance a safe endeavor, it would logically follow that manipulation of that same tissue with a trained practitioner would be just as safe if not more.

I'm sorry you and your daughter are getting frustrated. If I did live close by I'd be happy to see her at no cost out of fairness to some of your valid points on scientific studies. But obviously that's not possible... But I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make false and unsubstantiated accusations about my profession without first learning a thing or two about it from reputable and reliable sources. I'm not here claiming miracles will happen, I always merely suggest trying it as a compliment to whatever method is already being utilized. It's not a substantial investment... you would have a pretty good idea of it's effectiveness and methodology within say the first 1-3 hours of work. That's not going to break anyones bank account and it certainly won't be buying the practitioner a new car. :)

I'm all for healthy skepticism but slander I'm not, especially when folks don't know anything about what they are talking about. That seems fair to me.

Best to you and your daughter Gerbo,

structural

p.s. - Celia, I'm sorry, it has nothing to do with massage... www.theiasi.org

Celia
05-31-2007, 01:42 PM
I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make false and unsubstantiated accusations about my profession without first learning a thing or two about it from reputable and reliable sources. I'm not here claiming miracles will happen....


You did claim that SI cured your scoliosis - you are now scoliosis free??? I also recall the following statement in another thread not too long ago....




The good news: If you're 21 years of age then, despite what others may say, there is a possibility that your curve can be reduced to some degree. You didn't clarify if the scoliosis was dertermined to be congenital or ideopathically derived, that would play a major part in the potential outcome. So the question you asked;


"does anybody know of anything besides surgery that actually has been proven to help reduce the curve? "


Yes. There are several methods that claim to potentially reduce the curvature, but I will speak only of the approach that I have used personally and currently practice as a professional with proven results. Structural Integration (a.k.a. - Rolfing) and certain manually based Osteopathic Physicians have had excellent success at times in this realm. It is not a black and white issue, sometimes it works dramatically well (an Advanced Rolfer, Health Practitioner & colleage of mine in Munich, Germany recently worked with a young adult patient with a 46 degree curvature. At the end of the intitial treatment her curve was measured at 18 degrees.).

zuma
05-31-2007, 01:57 PM
That reply does not claim to be a miracle cure it just says to me that it will reduce the curve

Celia
05-31-2007, 02:02 PM
I see we're making trivial distinctions, otherwise splitting hairs. I would imagine any kind of reduction in curvature of a mature individual through SI would pretty much be miraculous. :p

structural75
05-31-2007, 04:02 PM
Sounds clear cut to me... I never used the word "cure" and made the distinction that it "sometimes" proves effective to varying degrees. Where's my claim of a "cure" Celia? Did you read my recent reply to Toni on my opinion of supposed "cures" for scoliosis?

Who's really trying to split hairs? And why? What is your intention here? Why are we continuing this discussion if you still can't answer any of the previous questions I asked regarding your base of knowledge and expertise to accurately judge treatment options?

You're obviously out to trash me... but frankly your opinion of me or my profession or TAMARS etc... is of very little concern to me.

I'm sorry I ever stepped in on this thread because now you're detracting from the original topic that Ray tried to bring to light.... TAMARS.

My apologies Ray and others for the distraction and negativity once again. Maybe it's time for me to accept the idea that this forum belongs to Celia and Friends and leave it at that. I can move on to more productive and positive experiences.

Take care,
structural

Celia
05-31-2007, 05:13 PM
I'm sorry I ever stepped in on this thread because now you're detracting from the original topic that Ray tried to bring to light.... TAMARS.

Did I not make this very same statement back on post #51 before you got into a lengthy selling pitch for Structural Integration? I believe I have a right to voice my opinions as does every member in this forum. Is it my fault you contradict yourself at every turn ????? The mark of a true salesman, I would say ;)



I vaguely recall the title of this thread is TAMARS rather than STRUCTURAL INTEGRATION!!!! :eek: Gerbo, I urge you not to provide what's his name a forum to advertise his unsubstantiated methods whether or not they are "non profit" I find these claims hard to believe as well since his credibility is virtually nil with me at this point.

structural75
05-31-2007, 06:33 PM
Celia,
You are truly delusional! Contradict myself at every turn??? With what may I ask? All of my posts are here for everyone to read... I take nothing back and stand behind my words. I believe it's you that hasn't answered a single serious question that I asked you... Why not? Nor did you address any of my points that you prompted.
Sales pitch??? What sales pitch??? I don't recall EVER giving anyone on this forum my personal info... Do you? If you're going to attack my profession (which you have zero knowledge about) then I WILL defend the ignorant comments. Be skeptical, have doubts and always keep common sense by your side... but "opinions" that are simply meant to degrade others whom you don't know or methods you're not familiar with is outright rude and inappropriate in this type of environment. Private message your friends here and bitch about it, but keep your unwarranted trash talking off the public domain.

I vaguely recall the title of this thread is TAMARS rather than STRUCTURAL INTEGRATION!!!! Gerbo, I urge you not to provide what's his name a forum to advertise his unsubstantiated methods whether or not they are "non profit" I find these claims hard to believe as well since his credibility is virtually nil with me at this point.
Funny, do you realized that YOU are the one that dragged my profession into this in post #33... That is how we got on the subject of SI, not me giving a sales pitch. Here's what you wrote to me...

Actually, my chosen method didn't cost me too much as most of it was covered by insurance! I don't know how you interpret success, but we're having pretty *darn* good luck with our chosen method, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!! Since you have brought up the clinical successes experienced by alternative practitioners that are not found in studies and we don't have the pleasure of reading, please share with us the miraculous success you've experienced in your own personal trials with scoliosis and how structural integration helped resolve your 25 degree curvature.

With all due respect, you're completely nuts!!!

Celia
06-01-2007, 11:38 AM
Raynox is getting advice from his pussy cat and you're in agreement with him on the most ridiculous, absurd claims and you're calling *me* nuts????? :D What I'd like to know is what kind of formal training did this cat receive?????


The 15 year old female patient that I mentioned was 2.5cm taller after her first treatment and this did not regress. You give me your scientific explanation of this! This patient by the way had x-rays, MRI scans, bone scans etc and never once was she told that she had curvatures. My cat could have seen the curvature when she lay down. My cat would now tell me the curvature is now gone.

Rayknox
06-01-2007, 02:27 PM
My cat is obviously more intelligent than you.
And not as rude.

structural75
06-01-2007, 03:51 PM
Celia,
I believe that was sarcasm (re: the cat)... ?

Since you brought up the topic of formal training, what is your formal training Celia that qualifies you to judge the efficacy, legitimacy and appropriateness of various manual therapies? What is your training that provides you with an understanding as to what they do or how they achieve effects?

structural

p.s.- It would be nice if you could actually address the responses I've given to your attempts at belittlement and redemption. Otherwise, I don't see the point in continuing this bantering.

gerbo
06-01-2007, 04:30 PM
well, without wanting to start all over again, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, with other words; studies (case descriptions, series of outcomes) providing (some) evidence that a certain type of treatment does something positive. And in the case of celia's daughter, this has clearly paid off. Her little daughter started well in the 60's and now, in a brace, is down to 1 degree. She clearly has shown to be able to judge very well what works and proven to be an excellent judge in these matters.

within the "scoliotic community" there is lots of respect for this lady and she has helped many parents to move forward.

Rayknox
06-01-2007, 05:17 PM
Why can this not be a sensible forum discussion.
I stated that I was getting good results with scoliosis patients.
I quoted various cases which obviously only myself and my staff have seen.
I stated that we were trying to get a proper study done.
I stated that anyone was welcome to view treatments.
I stated that I would treat a patient free of charge to let them report back.
I stated other things such as the ability to 'see' a scoliosis. Which I find unbelievable that so called experts cannot do.
Why all the criticism. No wonder medical discoveries take so long to make it into the world.
What was I saying that gets so much abuse.
I am also the only one who has the courage to print his name and country.

structural75
06-01-2007, 08:17 PM
Gerbo,

Likewise, without wanting to start all over again... . The proof of the pudding is in the eating indeed.. not the advertising or the results from a blind taste test (3 out of 10 people liked the taste, 7 didn't... so what do you offer those 7 people to eat?). In other words, you don't know until you try it. Although I have always seen your valid points on studies etc... evidence comes in more than just the form of a study. In fact most studies begin due to an experience in the clinical setting. I'm sorry those don't exist for you to read just yet. I'm not twisting your arm to try it... just making suggestions for those looking/asking for them. Just because studies don't exist yet doesn't mean there haven't been clinical successes, and neither of you are in any position to say it's impossible or never happened.

I realize she's been a great asset to people on this forum emotionally and as far as bracing experiences go, but I'm sorry Gerbo, that still doesn't give her the qualifications or right to trash talk things she doesn't understand or isn't familiar with. On the one hand you're demanding that some people back up their suggestions and offerings with scientific proof, and on the other hand you're excusing others' (and yourself) lack of 'scientific' understanding because they're your friend. Very hypocritical!

In the case of Celia's daughter... I hope things continue to go smoothly, I really do. But do keep in mind Gerbo that her 60 degree curve was serial casted at a very young age... when vertebral facets are very mobile and time hasn't yet severely deformed the vertebrae themselves. The real test is going to be the growth spurts... . Then we'll have a better idea if forcing curves back without doing anything whatsoever to address or discover the potential cause was futile or not. Remember, the cause hasn't been acknowledged, only the symptom of it. In the x-rays she posted earlier you can visibly see the torsion in the spine and pelvis, despite the fact that it is vertically straightened.... that would make me curious as a parent. And it would be a shame to look back 15 years from now and think to ones self, 'If only I had done something in addition to the bracing to attempt to discover and treat the cause instead of relying solely on force, luck and wishful thinking.... and studies'.

The only thing that bracing studies show is that sometimes the force of bracing can overpower the cause of the problem. We don't know if that's doing harm in other ways to the body or it's physiology... I haven't read or seen any studies that perform long term follow-up on the health status of individuals who were braced. Do you know of any? ...It's about perspective... what is the brace actually accomplishing and what does it not accomplish?... and what can be done to compliment it's use to try and cover all the bases as best as humanly possible?


within the "scoliotic community" there is lots of respect for this lady and she has helped many parents to move forward.I don't question her compassion for fellow parents and children... but compassion and care still doesn't give her the right to pretend to be a knowledgeable authority on certain matters. Within my "geographic community" there is a lot of respect for me... at least I earn that respect daily by treating people fairly and kindly whether I agree with their ideas or not. I don't pretend to be a Doctor treating peoples illnesses etc....

Sorry, but I've been finding it difficult to respect someone who insists on insulting people and refuses to make an effort to understand things. How do you respect someone who accuses people of giving a sales pitch when they were in fact the one who brought the topic to the table? Blatant lies and deliberate attempts at sabotage are not respectful traits... .

Neither of you have given a response to the 'tough questions' that I've asked. ??? It's absurd to try and discredit me by lumping structural integration into the same category as raindrop therapy or massage. If you folks took the time to learn about it you might realize that. There are sensible options with studies, ones without studies and then there are options that clearly will not address the things that matter... having little or no effect on the anatomy involved with scoliosis. (chiropractics moves bones without acknowledgment of the fact that soft tissue is what positions the bones... it's no wonder at all that those who have tried it found it to be unsuccessful. If you start with a bad premise, don't be surprised when you get unsatisfactory results.) Just the same, if your searching for another solution utilizing the same premise, you'll probably get similar results. However if you change your premise, it will probably give you different results.

structural

CurvySAT05
06-01-2007, 08:17 PM
May I suggest keeping foul language out of the discussion boards and in PM's only. While this in not in the "Youth" area, there are still young children that visit these boards. It is up to you "mature" adults to censor yourselves, but even if you use symbols instead of the word itself, kids are not stupid.
This might allow the thread to keep a 'hint' of civility.

Celia
06-01-2007, 08:43 PM
Gerbo,

That was so sweet of you to say that about me :p You are a dear friend!

structural75
06-01-2007, 09:27 PM
Mandy,
My apologies.

Celia,
Talk about hypocrisy... my goodness, I do recall your language in a previous thread taking the prize for "foul" and "crude". You'd be upset too if someone made accusations about you being dishonest, deceitful, a snake oil salesman or a fraud with no evidence to suggest such.... What are you going to report me for? ...Standing up and defending myself from your ignorant and insulting psychogenic banter? I try and answer questions, give advice or suggestions to people from an educated and experienced standpoint and you pop in with your name calling and immature uneducated remarks... and somehow you still think I'm the one that starts this nonsense.??? Unbelievable!

Can you do anything but ride on the backs of others? Stand on your own two feet for once. And if you're not prepared or capable of supporting your comments with intelligent, sensible and mature reasoning, then spare me from your rude ignorance. What kind of example are you setting here? At least people and children alike can read my posts and see that I'm always willing to give an intelligent and mindful response (versus name calling and such).

Celia
06-01-2007, 09:43 PM
I say this with all sincerity...you have got some *real* hostility issues and you need to seek professional help. Here is Linda Racine's post to you when you first joined this forum. I think her message still rings true.. By the way, I wasn't even part of this debate when the following statement was made.


Structural...

Not to fan the flames of this little debate, but attacking people is no way to get your point across. You're obviously passionate about your beliefs, but unless you keep your comments more professional, you stand little chance of turning non-believers into believers. I believe that the vast majority of people who read these forums have structural scoliosis or have children with structural scoliosis. Functional scoliosis is relatively rare.

Don't underestimate the knowledge of some of the people in these forums. Many of us have spent a lot more time researching scoliosis than you.

Regards,
Linda

structural75
06-01-2007, 10:23 PM
Celia,

And the post that immediately followed that one read as follows (mind you this person was not one of your elite friends/club members but an unbiased forum member).

I don't get it.

Why can't there be different opinions and treatments shared without people having a close mind and listening to what the person has to say.

I understand asking questions, and having doubts, but can't we keep an open mind without jumping on a person who has different approaches to share about.

Structural 75, I like reading what you have to say, and that doesn't mean I'm sure you're right and don't have any proof but it is interesting.

Have a nice day.

Again, you've pulled something from the archives completely out of context to try and slander me. That was from the Raindrop therapy thread that I entered into to say that in my professional opinion, based on my knowledge of the human body, raindrop therapy was not going to "cure" anyones scoliosis (it was suggested by the person who made that statement that scoliosis was caused by a virus and that raindrop therapy could kill that virus... does that sound reasonable to you?).

Now my posts on this forum, including that thread, are available for all to read. If you actually read that post in its full context, you'd see that I was being attacked once again. In fact, when I first joined this forum (read my first few posts) I was responding to people asking questions about pain management and anatomical issues. Your friend Linda Racine jumped on me right away when she felt threatened that someone else might know a little more than she does. It was Linda that began to attack me from the start... then you and some other friends joined the group. And rather than asking me about structural integration to get a better understanding of what it was, I was simply attacked and discredited because of the same ignorance you're displaying now.

By the way, I don't believe that the vast majority of people on this forum have structural scoliosis. I believe many have ideopathic scoliosis, which is actually the most common type of scoliosis contrary to what Linda stated. And functional scoliosis is different than ideopathic and not rare whatsoever.


Don't underestimate the knowledge of some of the people in these forums. Many of us have spent a lot more time researching scoliosis than you.If this were the case she would have known otherwise.

As far as my experience on this forum goes, you and Linda R. may as well be the same person, as she used to attempt the same thing that you're doing now. With all sincerity Celia, maybe you should reflect upon your own advice. If you think I have issues, you have completely drawn a blank on this entire conversation. It's so strange, it's as though you're living in some fantasy world... where one moment you say something then you turn around and pretend you never said it... I respond to your comments intelligently with reason and logic and then you ignore my questions/comments that aim to actually move the conversation forward into a more productive realm??? :confused: :confused: :confused: Now I'm the hostile one?????? :confused: :confused: wow!

structural75
06-01-2007, 10:35 PM
By the way Celia, this was a quote of mine you used just recently... however you conveniently left out the rest of the last sentence... let me just post the paragraph in its entirety so that people aren't misled by your selectivity.

You posted this:

Originally Posted by structural75
The good news: If you're 21 years of age then, despite what others may say, there is a possibility that your curve can be reduced to some degree. You didn't clarify if the scoliosis was dertermined to be congenital or ideopathically derived, that would play a major part in the potential outcome. So the question you asked;


"does anybody know of anything besides surgery that actually has been proven to help reduce the curve? "


Yes. There are several methods that claim to potentially reduce the curvature, but I will speak only of the approach that I have used personally and currently practice as a professional with proven results. Structural Integration (a.k.a. - Rolfing) and certain manually based Osteopathic Physicians have had excellent success at times in this realm. It is not a black and white issue, sometimes it works dramatically well (an Advanced Rolfer, Health Practitioner & colleage of mine in Munich, Germany recently worked with a young adult patient with a 46 degree curvature. At the end of the intitial treatment her curve was measured at 18 degrees.).


The last paragraph there actually read this way... but I see why you chose to leave that last bit out... it would be too revealing of my true honesty and not very supportive of your arguments against me.

Yes. There are several methods that claim to potentially reduce the curvature, but I will speak only of the approach that I have used personally and currently practice as a professional with proven results. Structural Integration (a.k.a. - Rolfing) and certain manually based Osteopathic Physicians have had excellent success at times in this realm. It is not a black and white issue, sometimes it works dramatically well (an Advanced Rolfer, Health Practitioner & colleage of mine in Munich, Germany recently worked with a young adult patient with a 46 degree curvature. At the end of the intitial treatment her curve was measured at 18 degrees.). Other times it has little or no effect on the degree of curvature, but may still do much in the way of reducing the chronicity of pain.Raindrop Therapy thread post #4. Very clever Celia... I'm proud to say that I don't need to revert to such manipulative ways to get my point across... shame on you. ;) Any other tricks up your sleeve?

structural75
06-01-2007, 10:44 PM
You know it just occurred to me that there is a woman who continually posts her flyers about yoga classes for scoliosis in NYC. How is it that I continuously get accused of "selling" my work when I've never given my name or info to anyone, but this person posts freely without a single problem?

gerbo
06-02-2007, 04:22 AM
ray; my reply was more directed at structural.

structural; there is no hostility in this reply at all and I like people who are not scared for a good discussion and stand up for themselves. You clearly fit into that category. I could imagine meeting you in a pub (typical british social establishment), having a three hour discussion within we do not agree on anything and still enjoy a good pint (british measure of fluidvolume, usually applied to various beers) during (and after).

There seems to be a difference in what both of us feel is of paramount importance. You seem to suggest that if the theoretical concept or theory is correct and logical, than the treatment flowing from that concept should inherently, (and without question!!) work. You forget though that in "proper" science there are further steps to be taken. I.e., based on previous knowledge or observations (for example SI improves backpain or significntly improves jointproblems) you develop a new theory which in your case should be something like; "from my knowledge of SI and known results with other disorders and some observations I made when i tried to apply the same principles of treatment to patients with scoliosis I postulate that SI can treat scoliosis".

Ofcourse you would need to define very clearly what you mean by "treat" (and in the multitude of posts I have lost what you actually mean by it, but it has to be some thing like either 1) in young adolescents with developping scoliosis i can stop or reverse the progression, or 2) in adults with established scoliosis I can reverse the curve, or 3) in either case i can give symptomatic relief, but i cannot change the actual development of the curve)

The next step is paramount to be taken seriously and that is to test your theory by applying it on a group of patients, recording what happens, compare it to likely outcomes if you wouldn't do anything at all and than compare the two groups to see whether you have made any difference. This last step, which you are very reluctant to take, is what you call "scientific evidence", which by publishing it you be would open to scrutiny by your peers or other workers in the field.

Why would anybody bother doing that if the clients come around anyway, with or without evidence?

1) You want to be taken seriously
2) You do not want to give false hope to your clients and be able to tell them exactly whether people being treated by SI are better off (and in what respect) than people not being treated by SI (and remember, even people not being treated by anything can improve spontaneously, so improvement noted is not automatically due to treatment, you need to do better than the natural history to be relevant)
3) There is a kind of moral responsibility; i f you are really on to something (and who knows??) knowledge of this treatment needs to be spread so that it becomes part of what is on offer for everybody. This requires "scientific evidence", it is nearly selfish not to provide this as it would mean that lots of potential sufferers will never have the opportunity to receive this treatment.
4) Fame ;) , and fortune, just imagine the riches the be gained from the being CE (I'll be your humble deputy) of "Structural Inc" a worldwide chain of SI franchises offering hope where there is despair...(etc etc, you get the idea) and a Noble price for science would only be a question of time.....

I do realise that this is all a bit much to take on for a small individual practitioner and a full blown study (randomised, doubleblind etc) might be asking a bit too much. However, the least you could do would be to either alone, or working together with some colleagues, would be to collect together, and keep on collecting, all the information of all scoliotic patients you have treated, which would need some objective measures of outcomes. just describe it; patient Y was 13 years old, had a curve of 40 degrees as shown by xray, i treated her over 3 years with weekly sessions of si and age 16 when she stopped growing age 17 she was only 20 degrees. Pt X was ..........etc. Ofcourse, case studies are inferior to larger doubleblind studies, but they do appear in the scientific literature and can be a starting point for scientific evaluation and scrutiny.

So, for the good of mankind and the greater glory of SI; have a go.

structural75
06-02-2007, 09:08 AM
Gerbo,

I hear very clearly what you're saying. And yes, I would love to see, and be a part of, studies involving SI and scoliosis. And you're right in that it would be better suited to have this type of thing performed by a larger governing body of the work rather than my humble self. Bigger is better in this instance.

I do not think that treatment based on this theory will, or should, work "without question"... that would be plain ignorance and naivety on my part. I'm a very realistic practitioner and find myself giving less than desirable opinions to patients somewhat frequently... ie - "I'm sorry, but I don't believe this can be changed utilizing this method, or without surgery, etc, etc... . I'm not throwing 'promises' out to my patients ever.

What I am being completely honest about (and I've been honest and realistic about everything that I've said) is that SI does more than just resolve or diminish chronic pain or joint problems, but it has been scientifically shown and is most prominently known for its ability to change the resting structure/posture/alignment of the entire human body... in ways that no other treatment/approach/method has shown to accomplish. Now that's not to say it's superior by any means, just different in its effect on the human body than most other symptomatically oriented methods of manual or exercise based treatments. So when one person after another walks into an SI practitioners office and they are able to change bend(s) and rotations in the spine/pelvis but that bend was not significant enough to label it as scoliosis, where is the stretch in logic for nay sayers that believe it would be impossible to alter a curve greater than 10 degrees (considered to be scoliotic)

And again, if one can accept the logic behind putting a device on someone that simply applies counter force to the direction of the scoliotic curve, then why is so difficult to comprehend the idea of complimenting that with a far more precise method that is very directly assisting that process... ? And is able to address specific restrictions that the brace cannot... particularly within the inner cavities of the torso.?

Just to clarify for you, and others who might be wondering what my original definition of "treat" entails. I have stated several times that SI MAY prove useful in slowing, stopping or reducing the curvatures, particularly in children and adolescents as less boney deformity has taken place (ideopathic scoliosis is what I'm talking about here). And in some cases it will have absolutely NO effect whatsoever on the curvature/rotations, but may still provide some relief for chronic pain conditions present. It's not very different from any form of scoliosis treatment (non surgical) in that I don't propose it to be a miracle cure nor do I believe that it will be effective in every case. However it is the type of work where you would know very soon into treatment if it was having effect or not... there's no wishful thinking involved or 'give it more time' mentalities here. The body will reveal its adaptive capabilities right from the start.

I don't recall any cases of scoliosis that "spontaneously" resolved without any type of intervention... ? Do you know of any? It may e possible but I don't know of it happening personally.

Again, I wish to be a part of such a study solely to get accurate numbers on effectiveness and consistency. I'm not interested in the least bit in "franchising" any type of treatment... I'm perfectly content doing what I do.. in fact franchising anything usually leads to problems in proficiency of treatment. Money has nothing to do with this for me and it is actually quite upsetting that so many of you feel that I'm here for financial reasons. But you're entitled to your own opinion on matters.

I'm not reluctant to make this into a more "scientific" process. However I have issues with restricting treatment altogether, of any kind, to individuals for the sake of "science". Where's the humanity in that? I don't believe in playing with peoples lives or well being just to get 'accurate data'. I would be more inclined, in fact happy, to perform a study with individuals wearing a brace... one group receives SI as an adjunct treatment and the other does not. That may not be as sterile as you'd like but it's humane and would in fact still be effective at providing some data.

Thanks for the respectful attitude, even if we don't see eye to eye.
structural

Rayknox
06-02-2007, 03:28 PM
Now that the bickering has subsided a little, I would just like to make a few pertinent points.
First of all this thread was originally to discuss the TAMARS treatment and rubbish it if it deserved to be rubbished. However it is obvious that no one really knows what the treatment entails. I would have thought by now that someone would have asked something about how it works. :confused: I have had criticisms about things that are not remotely resembling TAMARS. Does anyone really know what I am talking about. Has anyone really tried to get information on the treatment?
I understand, probably much more so now, the importance placed upon scientific evidence by everyone out there. I am not complaining about that, but Toni was the only sensible one as far as I am concerned. Precise points, plainly put.
The thread has been hihacked by other treatments, none of which I am actively involved with so I can not comment.
Have fun chatting amongst yourselves.

gerbo
06-02-2007, 05:37 PM
did look it up following links. looked interesting, but issue remains; does it really work etc. etc. Whether it works is so much more relevant than how it works. (its like a fridge, as long as it keeps my food cold, i am not bothered how it works) Saying that, once i have seen clear indications that it works, i would want to know more about it....

structural75
06-02-2007, 08:52 PM
Gerbo,

You're points are well taken once again... Although I understand and even agree with some of your thoughts, there will probably always be a divide between our viewpoints on this topic (regardless of the methods up for debate). Primarily because I'm a practitioner and you're a concerned and weary parent. You need the studies because it's the ONLY way that you can be convinced that something MIGHT have a positive influence. On the other hand, as a practitioner I see things occur in clinical settings that aren't in any studies, or to put it another way... not NEARLY everything that people walk into our practices with is scientifically studied in relation to ANY or EVERY type of treatment. This rings true throughout the medical community, as most Drs would concur (Drs. are doing this on a daily basis when prescribing a multitude of drugs to people that have not been tested in combination. Or drugs that were designed for certain conditions, and only tested for those conditions, but are now prescribed for a number of conditions with 'similar' symptoms without any studies to confirm their effects.). In fact, most of the people who seek "alternative" or "complimentary" methods are doing so because the 'scientifically valid' Drs. cannot help them any further without using drugs or surgery... in essence they have done what they can, or in some cases they tell the patient there is nothing wrong with them, that it's all in there head because their advanced technological equipment can't find a problem... . Where does that leave them? They can live with the prognosis and limitations of the Drs abilities and scope of practice or they can seek intelligent and sensible alternatives to address the problems. That doesn't mean you pick something randomly either... you choose the most appropriate treatment at the proper time... .

Many things we do in life and in our professions/careers are not validated by formal studies etc.... Although I clearly see where you're coming from, I would hope that you can see where I'm coming from in all of this. I have a perspective on issues like this and others that reading studies and descriptions of things just won't give you. I've treated too many people who have been to their Drs only to have them say they'll just have to live with it because there's nothing they can do. Sometimes that's true, but quite often it's not.

(its like a fridge, as long as it keeps my food cold, i am not bothered how it works)Well, I think there is something to gain by understanding at least a little bit about how something works. Comparing SI to Raindrop therapy is like comparing your fridge to your nightstand... both may serve a purpose somewhere in life, but you can't expect your night stand to keep your food cold. :) And surely you do the torsorotations and stretching because you seem to think it makes logical sense... even though I don't know of any "studies" done on the efficacy of stretching ligaments to help scoliotic curves. Maybe I'm wrong... .

In the end, I don't suggest eliminating bracing to pursue other adjunct treatments... But I do strongly believe that we'd be seeing a better success rate with bracing if we were integrating other relevant treatment approaches into it. It's time we start making some effort towards treating some of the causes of this condition and look beyond JUST the symptom. Modern medicine is extremely useful, but most of it addresses the symptoms of problems... we are forced out onto the fringes of health care to find approaches that treat the cause. The fringe eventually becomes an integral part of the primary entity, only to give rise to a 'new' fringe altogether.

One more thing... Despite the scientific scrutiny and testing of various braces, they still fail quite often to achieve the 'expected' and 'hopeful' results. I have to say, at least I'm not putting "false hope" into peoples minds by leaning on a study. Isn't that even more misleading Gerbo, to suggest that just because something was put through a study and showed positive effect it will work on anyone? It appears studies can potentially give people as much false hope as anything else.

Take care and best wishes to you and your daughter....
structural

ps-Ray, very sorry for the distraction from your original topic... Just wanted to clarify myself before moving onward from this forum. Best of luck with your ventures!

Celia
06-03-2007, 05:12 AM
It's amazing to me that regardless of how many times we try to get back on topic with TAMARS we are continuously side tracked with a sales pitch for structural integration. I'm sure Mr. Structural is familiar with the whole process of starting a new thread of his own instead of hijacking other threads to get his message across. :mad:

Rayknox
06-03-2007, 07:59 AM
Gerbo,
How it works is very helpful in understanding why it works. It is a very logical approach and you can usually visibly see a change in the spine during each treatment.
A scoliosis is a twisted spine, hence to remove the scoliosis the spine must be untwisted. I can understand where people are coming from that give exercises to rotate the torso in the opposite direction to the twist, and using wedging etc. The big problem is that the spine is so fixed. Exercise all you like and the very fixed joints will not move, especially the upper thoracic, cervical and sacral areas. This is where the TAMARS treatment excels. There are very few joints (I have not come across any unless they are fused) that will not free up.Now the spine has the ability to move, the reflex action jumps the spine back towards its original position. Many many repeats of this dual treatment is used on each spine.
I was asked 'does it last' and if the patient only gets one treatment then it does not. And the occasional patient is so into miracle cures that that is all they take. Two or three treatments close together and the changes generally remain. If it tends to regress then some part of the spine has not been freed up sufficiently.
Bracing, exercises, etc (including SI which I have not seen performed) may all help if done at the same time. I have not tried any of these except exercises. Bracing may help to keep the spine from regressing during the initial treatments, in the extreme cases where the ribcage is distorted. It all needs testing. If I had easy access to bracing I would do it myself.
All of these things are not as risky as surgery and I always wish that most of the patients I see could have come much earlier before the changes get too extreme and fixed. Unfortunately they have mostly gone through the system which is 'wait and see'. They then have the growth spurts and the spine twists massively in some cases.

Not sure what links you saw, but there are some articles written by scoliosis patients. The treatment was designed to cure back pain, but everyone I see with back pain has a twisted spine. To get rid of the pain you must remove or at least significantly reduce the twists.

structural
I agree with you on a lot of what you are saying esp. about treating the symtoms.

structural75
06-03-2007, 08:01 AM
Celia,
I didn't realize you were so interested in TAMARS. And who brought up SI again? Oh, that was you... . If people are going to ask for reasoning/explanations/justifications/etc... I'll oblige, that's not a sales pitch lady. Try again.

Celia
06-03-2007, 09:30 AM
Structural,

TAMARS is the topic of this thread is it not????? I asked you a very direct question about 70 posts ago as to how SI helped resolve your scoliosis in the context of alternative therapies but once again you managed to wiggle your way out of that frying pan and talk ad nauseum about generalities.....and we're still talking about it?????!!!!! My *tiny* query was in response to your post:


I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand how some of these "alternative" approaches could be effective in many cases (TAMARS, structural integration, etc)

If you want to discuss SI please feel free to start your own thread and discuss how it may or may not help scoliosis and how there are presently no studies or x-rays pointing to it's efficacy but PLEASE let poor Ray have his moment in the sun.

structural75
06-03-2007, 11:47 AM
You call my posts generalities.. ? Would you really like me to speak in anatomical terms... describing how SI and bracing alike effect the body? Are you educated enough to follow and understand such a discussion?

In what form would you like me to describe how SI resolved my own curvature? Do you want a play by play on the manipulative work performed or the anatomical explanation of how it changed? Let me know... . There's been no avoidance whatsoever.. . And if you think studies explain "how" something works you're sadly mistaken. Sorry Celia, but I feel no heat at all coming from your line of comments/questioning... . I always respond and often with very "direct" questions of my own, of which you have been unable or unwilling to respond to. ??? I wonder why.???

Can you explain to me how serial casting and the spinecor works to correct a curvature? And don't give me a study as your answer please.

My "ad nauseum" reply was in response to yours... where's the confusion? That post 'mentioning' si doesn't sound like a sales pitch to me. And how am I benefiting from being an anonymous member on an international public forum?

If you could restrain yourself from offering another unwarranted and unproductive insult maybe Ray and others could get back on task. You seem to be as much a distraction as anyone else.

p.s.-Your false sincerity and sympathy towards Ray isn't fooling anyone. It's obvious you just can't help but to use it as an excuse to trash me. Are you just hungry to attack him again... ? Can't get enough to satisfy your cravings? Here's the first post you put up on this thread:

Rayknox,

I don't think anyone needs to pick apart your words to see that your overall message is a bit over the top! Who do you think you're kidding???? You then have the gall to make these assertions without x-rays to back up your claims????? GET REAL!!!!!


Just the other day I was wondering when we were due for another lively discussion/debate with alternative practitioners making unsubstantiated expensive claims and here we are
__________________


If you want to discuss SI please feel free to start your own thread and discuss how it may or may not help scoliosis and how there are presently no studies or x-rays pointing to it's efficacy but PLEASE let poor Ray have his moment in the sun.Wow, you know somehow that there are NO x-rays confirming its effect? Just because I don't have access to the thousands of x-rays around the US and Europe to share with you doesn't mean at all that they don't exist... You're obviously a 'glass half empty' type of person. Don't be a hypocrite... if you won't accept my claims due to lack of evidence being presented on this forum, then you have NO place in making 'assumption' about its complete ineffectiveness without the evidence to prove it. You don't like playing by your own rules very much... .
__________________

Celia
06-03-2007, 12:03 PM
Yes, we're having a debate on TAMARS! Get with the program!

structural75
06-03-2007, 12:14 PM
Are we? :) ...Do you have a block feature or something that doesn't permit my questions through to you? You haven't answered a single one.

This is my absolute final post... go ahead, trash away, nows your chance without getting another reply from me.

I'll be checking back in about 10 - 15 years or so... maybe I'll have some studies to satisfy your needs. Hope all goes as planned for you.

Rayknox
06-03-2007, 03:29 PM
I don't know why I bother.

gerbo
06-03-2007, 04:16 PM
ray, it really would be great if you could get some of your succesfully corrected patients to write something on this or the scoliosis-support forum.

Rayknox
06-03-2007, 04:37 PM
gerbo,
I will try and get one of my 'bad' patients to do this the next time they are in.
As I found out registration can take a week at least so bear with me.
ray

gerbo
06-04-2007, 01:56 AM
from my point of view, the most interesting would be a younger adolescent patient, with proven scoliosis (x-ray) who has improved following TAMARS

gerbo

Rayknox
06-04-2007, 03:59 AM
gerbo,
Unfortunately until now I have not been bothered with post treatment x-rays etc from patients. They come in with a scoliosis- they get treatment- they leave happy and I am happy to have helped them. Also the vast majority are in the position of 'there is nothing more we can do for you except pain killers, or if the curvature is severe, fusion' medical advice. So we are generally treating old long standing curvatures. I would love to get early stage patients, and I don't mean young babies ( although they might react well ). I have treated quite a number of teenagers who have been told that their back pain is 'growing pains' but when examined have quite a curvature. Again they were not x-rayed. Unfortunately neither the doctors nor the surgeons ever actually physically look at the patients spine, except and even this is very rarely, they ask them to bend forward. Maybe in your area you find differently but it is certainly true here.
Because the treatment has not been tested with a clinical trial, the doctors (except the ones who have had experience of the treatment through themselves or their patients) pass the patients to the orthopaedic surgeons, who look at the x-rays and MRI scans and then do the waiting experience.
So we have to depend on recommendations from other patients, and in fact one such patient is flying in next week because of such a recommendation.
He does have x-rays but is in his 30's so he is quite typical.

backcareclinic
08-29-2007, 02:25 PM
Hi, I would just like to say that I totally agree with Raymond's postings. I do know Raymond, although I believe it was my website which originally was mentioned in this forum. I have been using the equipment for over 10 years and literally was the first osteopath in the world to use it. In most cases we can reduce the curvature of the spine, but first of all it reduces pain levels. Each spine is different and some are quicker than others depending on the curve. I always feel it is worth patients trying this in order to avoid surgery as they will find out quite soon whether it will work for them. It is a shame the treatment is not available in the NHS and I also agree we do need research, although a pilot study on chronic back pain was carried out at Oswestry many years ago, with good results. At our clinic we also use a SpinalMouse to monitor changes, which is seen to be the equivalent of an Xray, as featured in European Spine Journal. As well as producing an image of the angles of the spine, measures, posture, flexibility and postural competence, but is radiation free. It is a very serious piece of equipment, but is totally under the control of the practitioner. Irene Phillips

heidel
09-02-2007, 09:02 PM
what is this new fabu treatment/equiptment that ive just finished reading about? :confused:

rtremb
09-03-2007, 01:16 AM
Raynox:

Where in Ireland is your clinic?

Can you help a teenager with a T50, L48 idiopathic scoliosis? Have you had success in the past with a teenager with curves of this magnitude and can you prove it?

Our daughter had a very bad fall on a fence a few years ago at school (pushed) and her tailbone was sore for at least three months after. She was about 9 years old. The Doctor and chiropractor say this fall has nothing to do with her scoliosis.

How does the TAMARS treatment work?

Is it painful for the patient?

Ruth Tremblay, Ottawa, Canada

Rayknox
09-03-2007, 08:22 AM
Ruth
Our clinic is about 20 miles from Belfast.
The fall your daughter had seems to be one of the most common causes of back problems with women young and old.( we run across it on a daily basis here)
In our experience the Doctors and Chiropractors(and surgeons) do not pick up the effects this sort of fall causes, and you really need to see the treatment to understand how using the TAMARS tool highlights the problem.
The treatment works by freeing up all the joints of the spine, from the sacrum to the cervical spine. This is done by counter-rotating pairs of joints.
The scoliosis is reduced by using the spinal muscle reflexes to literally jump the spine back to its natural position. It is a slow steady process-free the spine a little, straighten the spine a little and repeat many many times.
The treatment can be uncomfortable to reasonably painful depending on the condition of the spine. Very inflamed, more discomfort. Young patients tend to be very tolerant of the treatment and the treatment can be pushed on quickly.
If you are interested in speaking to young patients that have been treated, I can forward contact numbers (with their approval). I can give a selection of ages and severity.(both better and worse than your daughter) I will do this with private messaging.You can also contact me directly if you wish.
Your daughter is young and should respond very well. She should still have a lot of growing to do and that is when the problems will occur.
Let me know what you think.
Ray.

Rayknox
09-03-2007, 08:41 AM
heidel.
My answer to Ruth should give you more information. Feel free to ask anything that concerns you.

heidel
09-03-2007, 08:05 PM
Hollo : ;)
It figures !
You are in Europe !
I am so frustrated by the US and their ignorance in regards to Scoliosis.
It is bad enough that we do not have socialized medicine.
Oh well, sounds great and am happy that it is helping people over there.
thanks, peace :)
Cindy

rtremb
09-03-2007, 11:05 PM
Heidel:

I think Ray said in one of his posts that there is someone in Florida doing the TAMARS treatment. Ray?

Ruth

Rayknox
09-04-2007, 02:02 AM
The treatment is being introduced in Florida by Advanced Spinal Technologies in Boca Raton.

Rayknox
09-13-2007, 05:01 PM
I was asked to provide a quote from one of my patients.

Quote: "My name is Judith. I am 35 years old. I was 4 1/2 when it was discovered I had scoliosis of the spine.
From 4 1/2 years old I attended *** Hospital and until 11 years old had to wear back braces. I was called scarecrow and freak because of wearing these braces and I used to cry every morning going to school -----
At 11 years old my spine was really curved and my consultant inserted a harrington rod into my back to straighten my spine. I was in plaster for 9 months and Mr *** told me when you get the plaster off you will be so straight. He was having a laugh because nothing changed and I had constant back pain in my lower back which I never had before.
When I was about 23 years old Mr *** grafted up the discs in my lower back. I was in plaster for 9 months again. Still no ease with the back pain.
Mr *** retired and my new consultant Mr B told me he couldn't do any more for me but I could try pain killing injections. I went once and the pain of them was worse than the back pain.
So from about 1996 I am just taking pain killers.
I then met Raymond and he said he would look at my back. I have had two sessions of therapy and he has done more on my spine than *** Hospital has done in 20 years. He has given me more freedom to move about. I was always very stiff. Also I was so self conscious of the curve I used to try and hide my back in baggy clothes.. Raymond brought the curve in my spine down 1 1/2 cm which is amazing. He has given me confidence and the back pain is a lot easier
He has done more for me in two weeks than you can imagine. He has changed my life completely. Words cannot describe the change he has made to me. "unquote

That is a condensed version of what she wrote.
Her doctor and her hospital cannot find her original x-rays so I had to work completely by feel.
So again I cannot compare against her old condition. I understand that the hospital are still searching archives for her notes etc.
Possibly this is a worst case scenario from an operation. But anyway you asked for a quote and that is one.

Prfbones
12-04-2007, 02:07 PM
Hi There,
Because the treatment is reasonably new, full clinical trials have not been completed yet. However Advanced Spinal Technologies in America are proceeding gradually down this route. Ray.

Hi Ray,

Clinical Trials in the US must register in the Clinical Trial Database, controlled through the Department of Health and Human Services. Can you please list your clinical trial registration number(s)? I'd be interested in taking a look at your trial protocols...

Same for any European trials.

-Prfbones

yellowfish
03-31-2008, 03:08 AM
So that was it? No more updates on this amazing treatment? Another scam.

Rayknox
04-05-2008, 11:56 AM
Progress is being made. The treatment is definitely not a scam. Equipment has been placed in several locations (hospitals etc ) in the U.S. It takes time to be proficient with the treatment so this is a factor as well. The company I am hoping will be doing trials in America are going slowly - raising funds etc.
I have been back in Florida doing some more training and helping with treatments.

danieloc
01-18-2009, 03:41 PM
Hi all,

Just responding to the following post as I've been a patient at Ray's clinic since October 08':

ray, it really would be great if you could get some of your succesfully corrected patients to write something on this or the scoliosis-support forum.

Firstly although this thread has gone on for several years and I haven't read every post I felt I should chime in with my two cents.
After doing a lot of googling on scoliosis treatments I discovered this thread and from there discovered Rays clinic in Belfast. I'm 27 and based in Cork (Southern Ireland) and have been suffering from a number of scoliosis induced back problems for the last four years particularly. I've had an x-ray which showed an obvious curve and tried extensive treatments from chiropractors followed by Osteopaths with absolutely no progress.
So as I was getting nowhere and a bit desperate with my worsening symptoms, I decided to give the Tamars option a shot and hopped on a plane to belfast for the day.
After just a single session I couldnt believe how much better I felt! I can assure everyone that its just as good as all the other testimonials you've heard.
Also my mother who had been having alot of lower back pain has had an even better response to this treatment after just two sessions.
So at this point after 4 sessions approx 80-90% of my symptoms are simply gone. Not a bad result so far!
All in all I'm happy I tried it, although it was an easy decision as it is so low risk. I just dont get why anyone suffering daily wouldnt give it a shot when you have nothing to lose??

If any of the more skeptical readers have any questions feel free to give me a shout.

Karen Ocker
01-19-2009, 10:56 AM
You've had 4 sessions. Many of us have had similar results with alternatives - myself included. However, in time, most of the benefits seemed to disappear and if we had significant curves no correction was ever permanent.

You do not say how large your curves are.

We see many posts by members using a few treatments/months of an alternative and rave about it--but not one has come back with permanent results when treatments were stopped. Some have spent enormous amounts of money doing this.

Pooka1
01-19-2009, 12:41 PM
(snip)
If any of the more skeptical readers have any questions feel free to give me a shout.

As I understand it, because scoliosis can occur without associated pain, surgeons claim that scoliosis doesn't cause back pain.

Now that may be semantics but I think you are not claiming that TAMARS corrected your curvature but only that you got some relief from pain, yes?

If so, doesn't that support the claims of surgeons who say the curve alone is not causing pain but there is always some other reason?

I saw a video of the treatment. It likes like a little massager. So I assume this is a type of assisted massage or something?

What exactly are the TAMARS claims w.r.t. scoliosis?

I had a crushed disc. I suspect the action of this little massager would have sent me through the roof before the vertebra fused. It would have been intolerable.

danieloc
01-19-2009, 07:14 PM
Hi Karen,

I suppose your main point is: "wait and see, all of that pain will soon return"

Over the xmas break I spent about a month in between appointments while on holiday. During which I did quite a bit of very demanding physical activity such as advanced level windsurfing, sailing running etc, all things that usually aggravate me, I can say truthfully that I returned in as good a state as i left. Perhaps a month isnt long enough to convince you but I can only report on my experience thus far.
however truth be told with the freedom I've gained already, if it took a monthly visit to sustain my present condition I'd be more than happy with that. As long as i can continue to speak of my symptoms in past tense.

its a fair point to say that time will tell eventually. I did explain though that I've given 3-4 years to the chiropractic and osteopathic options with only backwards progress. So I'm comparing my experience so far to these more 'mainstream' options where each practitioner was full of great promises.
The chiropracter who x rayed me at the time (3 years ago) didnt give me the exact curvature in degrees but it was obvious that my spine was 'S' shaped. I could also see and feel the unevenness myself, which has now been greatly reduced, I calculate this by the highly scientific process of placing my hand across my lower back.. the change in posture and form is just so obvious.

I'd like to get a hold of that xray again for a comparison but my condition was bad enough to have had a significant negative effect on every aspect of life. Sleeping/exercising/driving and working at the office were all constant uncomfortable and painful experiences. I'm sure this sounds very familiar to you.

Oh and by the way did I mention my own mother hasnt even bothered to return after her second visit a couple months ago? ya, no relapse there. no sign of the former sciatica/lower& upper back pain so far. and yes she's done the whole chiro/osteo treadmill as well.

anyway I do promise that if your prediction of total relapse comes to pass in at all, I will report back truthfully!

danieloc
01-19-2009, 07:18 PM
Hi Pooka,
At this point I'm reporting my experience where I've seen both a reduction in curves and pain. Your other questions are probably more for Ray to talk about.


As I understand it, because scoliosis can occur without associated pain, surgeons claim that scoliosis doesn't cause back pain.

Now that may be semantics but I think you are not claiming that TAMARS corrected your curvature but only that you got some relief from pain, yes?

If so, doesn't that support the claims of surgeons who say the curve alone is not causing pain but there is always some other reason?

I saw a video of the treatment. It likes like a little massager. So I assume this is a type of assisted massage or something?

What exactly are the TAMARS claims w.r.t. scoliosis?

I had a crushed disc. I suspect the action of this little massager would have sent me through the roof before the vertebra fused. It would have been intolerable.

Pooka1
01-19-2009, 08:03 PM
Hi Pooka,
At this point I'm reporting my experience where I've seen both a reduction in curves and pain. Your other questions are probably more for Ray to talk about.

How much did your curves reduce?

(N.B. This will require before and after radiographs measured by the same competent person. I am not sure that chiros have the requisite training to measure Cobb angle not that it isn't easy once the end vertebra are chosen.)

Rayknox
01-20-2009, 09:45 AM
My only comment about this patient is 'let the treatment speak for itself'.

As regards the pain from scoliosis, in the early stages there can be no pain, but when the discs start to degenerate due to the twists in the spine, there will rarely not be pain, or numbness,or muscle weakness etc,or a combination of lots of problems.
And your crushed disc. what caused that.

Pooka1
01-20-2009, 10:06 AM
My only comment about this patient is 'let the treatment speak for itself'.

Patients are obviously NOT competent to tell you the before and after Cobb angles unless they are told what they are by a radiologist or orthopedic surgeon. If you didn't know that then you should not be delving into medical claims as you have been.

Why don't you just do before/after radiographs and document what you are claiming and also document how long any correction lasts after the last treatment.

I think you realize this is the evidence that is required to back up your claims.

I further think you realize that you can't pony this up and are trying to deflect and divert.

Rayknox
01-20-2009, 11:27 AM
Pooka1
I have been made well aware(by posts) of the need for x-ray evidence before commenting on this forum. I do understand the scepticism from people who have been there and done it with various treatments and are no better off. Hence I do not post very often.
We do not x-ray in this clinic (I don't like subjecting people to lots of x-ray exposure) but occasionally patients have their own x-rays before and after. Not enough of them to satisfy a full trial however.
There are visible changes to the spine such as kyphosis reduction that can be measured without x-rays and these we do measure.
My own son had scoliosis with a rib hump on one side so I know the changes that were made on him.(and they are permanent)
If Daniel comes back and says the whole spine reverted back to its original shape after a few months then I will expect to be ridiculed. And rightly so.

Pooka1
01-20-2009, 11:51 AM
If Daniel comes back and says the whole spine reverted back to its original shape after a few months then I will expect to be ridiculed. And rightly so.

It wouldn't matter what Daniel says one way or the other without before/after radiographs.

This is a penetrating glimpse into the obvious for the evidence-driven, intellectually honest among us.

I can't find claims to decrease curves (as opposed to pain) on the TAMARS website. If they appear, I will send the site to Quackwatch for potential listing.

Pooka1
01-20-2009, 11:57 AM
I can't find claims to decrease curves (as opposed to pain) on the TAMARS website. If they appear, I will send the site to Quackwatch for potential listing.

Ooops. Found it.

amazing claim (http://www.tamars.co.uk/en-GB/Solution/)

I sent the page to Quackwatch. I'll report back with any reply.

Pooka1
01-20-2009, 12:04 PM
What is TAMARS FDA-approved for EXACTLY?

Is the word "scoliosis" anywhere in the approval?

Is the claim that it can hold or improve scoliosis curves anywhere in the approval?

Is it approved to address pain or to decrease curves?

If not to decrease curves, why are you talking about FDA approval if it has been approved for non-scoliosis conditions?

s

Rayknox
01-20-2009, 04:03 PM
You are obviously too thick to read things properly.
It is a device that has received clearance.

Pooka1
01-20-2009, 04:05 PM
You are obviously too thick to read things properly.
It is a device that has received clearance.

Clearance for what?

Curing cancer? Detecting space aliens?

Pooka1
01-20-2009, 04:26 PM
FDA clearance (http://www.fda.gov/CDRH/DEVADVICE/3122.html)

Here is the page for TAMARS...

TAMARS (http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfPMN/pmn.cfm?ID=17608)

Rayknox
01-20-2009, 04:59 PM
If you read these you will see that the device is intended to be used to adjust,mobilize or manipulate the joints of the spine.
Not for curing cancer or detecting space aliens

Pooka1
01-20-2009, 05:17 PM
If you read these you will see that the device is intended to be used to adjust,mobilize or manipulate the joints of the spine.
Not for curing cancer or detecting space aliens

Yes so I gather.

Clearly I had no idea what "FDA clearance" meant.

It seems to be just a statement that the device is safe and is in a certain class of devices.

Still, I don't see how the manufacturers get from "adjust, mobilize, or manipulate" to the claims to straighten spines.

If it can straighten spines decidedly and permanently then it would be the first such external manipulation device to do so and fusion surgery will be a thing of the past.

The inventor would get the Nobel in medicine/physiology.

What I don't understand is if spines can be permanently straightened such that fusion surgery is unnecessary then why don't the manufacturers do some controlled studies and prove it. They will make the cost of the studies back many fold if the device works as advertised, no?

Rayknox
01-21-2009, 07:19 AM
Firstly I am , unfortunately, neither the inventor nor the manufacturer. I just run a couple of clinics dedicated purely to the treatment. I am only reporting on what I have found.
And you are correct, a full clinical trial or some sort of study is completely necessary, but I do not have the funds to do one, nor has the inventor. I introduced the treatment into America to a company that I thought would raise the funds to do all the trials. They have been very slow in moving forward and with a change in their financial situation recently, things have slowed again. One trial is going forward to the best of my knowledge, in a Florida hospital, but purely on the back pain aspect.

Pooka1
01-21-2009, 12:04 PM
As I understand it, a large part of the FDA clearance for TAMARS was due to the substantial similarity to several other devices which have already been approved.

I wonder if any of the several other similar devices also claim to straighten spines permanently.

I also wonder if TAMARS has a US Patent given the substantial similarity to several other devices.

Rayknox
01-21-2009, 03:45 PM
The device has a U.S. patent.

danieloc
09-23-2012, 07:30 PM
Got an automated birthday greeting today from this site and thought I'd check in for whatever its worth.

2.5 years ago I moved away from ireland to Sydney. So that brought an end to my monthly sessions at Rays clinic.
Since then I haven't had any back treatments/massages etc of any kind.
I've pretty much forgotten all the constant pain & discomfort that I used to have, its a distant and fading memory at this point.
Overall I'd say I'm at 9/10, every now and then my neck tightens up slightly if I surf a few days in a row without much stretching but thats probably fairly normal. Thats about it.
The aspect of this treatment that I find most remarkable is how permanent the effects of each session is. I'd finish each treatment feeling a bit better, permanently. All in all I think I had about 11 sessions over the course of a year.
I'm hugely thankful for this!

Rayknox
01-20-2013, 02:07 PM
Just saw your reply.
Glad everything is still going well.
Treatment methods progressing even further with experience.
Have done trials with university. Excellent results. Haven't posted for some time as too much agression on the site.
Hope to see you soon when you are back in Ireland.

Pooka1
01-21-2013, 04:53 PM
Have done trials with university. Excellent results.

Are they published? Can you post the data here?