Scoliosis and TAMARS treatment

[Rayknox]

After operating a TAMARS clinic for several years the conclusion is that scoliosis is, in most cases very treatable without surgery. We have had very good results, and the sooner we get the patient the easier the scoliosis is to fix.
A very common cause of the scoliosis appears to be a fall on the bottom - falling on ice or off a trampoline are regular culprits. This compresses the spine and the spine then gradually twists. If the fall happens at a young age then, with growth, the scoliosis increases in severity. Other symtoms that regularly occur are low back pain, shoulder pain, headaches etc.
The TAMARS treatment frees up the spine and removes the twists, sometimes very spectacularly.
Ray

[tonibunny]

That's interesting, Ray! I'd like to ask some questions....

- Who has been doing proper research into this effectiveness of this system? I mean, which scientists?
- Is the treatment administered by a medically qualified doctor, or just an osteopath, chiropractor or other such practitioner?
- Do you make use of standard diagnostic tools such as x-rays and MRI scans?
- By what criteria is treatment deemed a success?
- Is this treatment available on the NHS? Surely the NHS' scoliosis specialists must be very excited about it?
- How is it possible to say that scoliosis is caused by "a fall on the bottom" when everyone you ask is likely to remember falling thus at some point in the past, but only a handful of people develop scoliosis?
- Why would a brief shock to the spine cause it to "compress and twist", if there is no damage to the shock-absorbing intervertebral discs?
- Where does infantile idiopathic scoliosis fit into this, where a baby has developed marked scoliosis before it has even sat upright for the first time?

Thanks :)

[SandyC]

Toni,
Great questions, it will be interesting to see if he answers :rolleyes:

[Rayknox]

Hi There,
Because the treatment is reasonably new, full clinical trials have not been completed yet. However Advanced Spinal Technologies in America are proceeding gradually down this route. They have opened a clinic in Florida and initial results of a small sample group have been published.
The treatment need to be administered by someone trained in the procedure. Inexperienced practitioners will get good results with normal back problems, but to resolve complex curvatures needs a lot of practice generally. In Florida machines have been placed in medical clinics with treatment performed by physical therapists.
X-rays and MRI scans are useful but not essential to treatment. The practitioner actually gets an excellent feel of the condition of the spine just by treating. MRI's will obviously highlight nerve pressure etc. but the treatment does not change. You need to observe the treatment to fully appreciate it.
Success is measured by complete removal of pain and or large reduction if not complete removal of curvatures.
The Orthopaedic surgeons in this region are aware of the treatment and are giving favourable comments, but the N.H.S. will probably not adopt the treatment until a clinical trial is done. In this clinic we do not advertise more than perhaps once per year but results are giving us patients from mainland U.K. and even the USA. All word of mouth.
The reason I state that a fall on the bottom is a cause (and I mean obviously only one possible cause) is because I have identified this as a factor in a large number of patients from 7 years to 90 years of age. eg I have had several patients with kyphotic and scoliotic lumbar spines as a result of an ice skating fall. The treatment removed the kyphosis and the scoliosis. A 15 year old female patient was told she would never play sport again. She had fallen on her bottom very heavily off a trampoline 2 years previously. She had cervical, thoracic and lumbar curvatures with severe pain in the upper lumbar region. Her spine is now straight, and she broke athletics records 4 months after treatment- totally pain free.
It is aso surprising how people forget their falls. Some patients have been in hospital after a fall but forget about it whe initially asked. Also a large number of patients develop a slight scoliosis that is not diagnosed. They merely complain of back pain are treated accordingly by their doctor.

A sharp impact on the end of the spine is, I assume,compressing the facet joints. Again when measuring the height of the previously mentioned 15 year old, she was 2.5 cm taller after the first treatment and this remained in the weeks following. The impact will probably not be central which would give uneven compression.

Infantile idiopathic scoliosis is possibly genetic. A proper trial is the only way to prove whether something was done at birth. I have seen patients developing scoliosis after surgery so I am open to all possibilities.
Hope this is of some use.
Ray.

[tonibunny]

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your reply. It's good to have a practitioner of an "alternative" treatment for scoliosis actually reply to my questions!

The treatment sounds fascinating. I don't however believe that you can properly treat scoliosis without at least having x-rays done so that you can see what you're dealing with. How do you determine the degree of someone's curvature? And it's impossible to feel the anterior spine by touching with one's hands. How can you possibly know whether the scoliosis is idiopathic, or is caused by neurological or congenital deformities which have only just presented with symptoms? This does happen quite frequently, I help to run another scoliosis forum and have conversed with people both here and there who have experienced this. Also I would imagine that it would be downright dangerous to treat someone with scoliosis due to an undiagnosed Chiari malformation.

According to a website on this treatment, "severe" scoliosis can be completely cured after just a few sessions. How do you define "severe" scoliosis? What's the biggest degree of curvature that you have successfully removed? I can imagine physical therapies managing to "cure" slight curvatures that are still very loose, but I find it hard to believe that a large, rotated curve of say 80 degrees could be permanently "cured" in just three or four sessions.

I'm surprised that clinical trials have not been done as a matter of urgency. If this treatment can cure scoliosis, that would save the NHS a lot of money every year - it would remove the costs of bracing and surgery, at least. What do the top surgeons in the Scoliosis Research Society say? Surely they must be very excited to hear of this and are pushing for clinical trials?

[Karen Ocker]

Mr. raynox:


What is your education and professional credentials???
Do you give a money back guarantee?? :rolleyes:

[Rayknox]

I am a graduate engineer and an ex international athlete. I employ medically qualified personnel. I was trained by the developer of the equipment who was also an engineer. Thinking like a medic does not help to treat patients. Logic and common sense are just if not more important.

[Rayknox]

Can I state first of all that I got involved with this treatment because I had a son with 'idiopathic' scoliosis - lumbar and thoracic curvatures and a 2cm rib hump. I also had bad sciatic pain myself that I could not get cured and my wife had a very badly twisted spine that was untreatable. We all now have backs that are practically normal. My son's scoliosis is 95% gone and there is no rib hump.
If I can try and answer your questions one at a time.
You would be amazed what you can feel with the equipment - you do not feel with your hands except through the treatment tool. I find that x-rays are of very little use except to be aware of fractures. Congenital deformities will usually be spotted early in life if they are of any severity. Idiopathic is as it says - cause not known - my son's idiopathic scoliosis was due to a crash at 14years.
Chiari malformation is very rare and the symtoms can be caused by a twisted cervical spine. A twist of this type can be cured with this treatment and our success rate for even long term headaches, dizzyness, etc is extremely high.
The treatment is very safe and does not compare with the high velocity thrusts used by other treatments.
80 degree curvatures are obviously much more difficult than actually getting patients before they have been allowed to progress to this stage. Especially if the scoliosis began in childhood. Every patient is different - some respond very quickly, some are very hard work but they all show a reduction - many to zero. Very few of the patients are 'loose' most have suffered for years and have tried all sorts of treatment. Three or four treatments again is rare but to mention another case - a cerebral palsy patient, awaiting harrington rods to cure his scoliosis had his mainly lumbar curvature removed in two sessions. Unusually quick but true nevertheless. He returned a year later, out of his wheelchair with his spine in the same condition, and now riding motorcycles.
In his words the fourth wonder of the world.
Clinical trials cost a lot of money. Money neither I or the inventor have. This is why we are waiting for the American company to fulfill this role.
Again as I say to everyone - seeing is believing- My door is open!

[tonibunny]

Hi Ray,

I am a little concerned that you mention a patient awaiting "Harrington Rods". This instrumentation is obsolete and has not been in use in America or the UK for many many years. I would expect a medical professional to be fully aware of this, yet many alternative practitioners refer to them!

Can you elaborate on the "medically qualified personnel" that you employ - are they doctors? "Medically qualified personnel" can mean anything from nurses and physiotherapists to consultants. I wouldn't trust anyone other than a qualified doctor specialising in spinal problems to take responsibility for the care of my spine, and I'm afraid that I would insist on x-rays.

It is not true that congenital scoliosis always presents itself in childhood. We have seen several people who have previously unknown congenital problems that suddenly manifest themselves in adulthood. Only an x-ray would be able to diagnose this.

Your treatment sounds amazing - please could you let us know what the Scoliosis Research Society have said about it? I mean, it's an amazing cure - surely you have brought it to their attention? They are after all the most important and influential group of scoliosis specialists in the world, and could help enormously with organising clinical trials.

Cheers,

Toni

[Rayknox]

I beg to differ. Maybe in america they are not used but they are being used here. Surely one of the Royal Family had them inserted a few years ago. I also know patients that have had them inserted in the last 12 months.
If you search these forums you will see patients describing Harrington rods being inserted this year in America. The discussion following debates the term Harrington rods but the post I read has the patient saying he was told they were Harrington rods. At the very least they are placing metal bars in the patient attached to the spine.
I employ physiotherapists. I also consult with G.P.'s I also treat G.P's by the way, and lots of nurses and the occasional consultant. As I have said the medical profession will not take this on board until there is a trial done. I have not consulted the Scoliosis research body. I have been evaluating this treatment for several years now, mainly with the aim of curing back pain. I am only contributing to this forum to inform anyone who is interested of the results that I am getting with scoliosis patients. You have your own opinions, but don't close your mind to new ideas without actually seeing the treatment.

[tonibunny]

People sometimes use the term "Harrington Rod" as a generic term for metal implants, because these were the only rods available for several decades. Actual Harrington Rods have NOT been in general use for many years though. They have been superceded by segmentational instumentation that attaches to vertebrae and can derotate the spine.

In addition, Princess Eugenie did not have Harrington Rods implanted. I know this for a fact because her surgeon at the Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital in Stanmore has treated several of my friends and he has never used Harrington Rods. Indeed, they haven't used Harrington Rods at the RNOH for over 15 years.

I'm not closing my mind to anything new that can help scoliosis patients, but you must understand that I am very wary of alternative treatments that have not yet been formally scientifially tested nor even brought to the attention of the SRS, which claim to cure severe scoliosis in just a few sessions. Why do you need to evaluate the treatment for several years when you are able to cure scoliosis almost immediately? Is it because the scoliosis returns? It sounds miraculous, and I presume that you charge for this? Do you give a money-back guarantee?

[Rayknox]

I assume you are in the UK from your comments. Come and look at the treatment and then decide. Talk to patients - see if they are happy- do we charge for the treatment? If it did not work I would not be interested in the slightest, and would not run clinics. What is your medical background? You just sound cynical which is understandable. As for the Harrington rod question, whatever is placed in the spine is certainly metal, it does not fully cure the scoliosis and there is a hugh risk involved.
This clinic is not an evaluation clinic. as I stated the treatment is primarily for curing back pain. The scoliosis results came about from treating scoliosis patients with back pain. If no-one is interested in these results then no problem. But it will come into the medical domain eventually as the results are too good to ignore if carried out by a competent person.
I have not contacted the SRS but we are currently in contact with a london university to get a study started.(this just in the last few weeks)
Do the surgeons give a money back guarantee when treatment does not work? or are they infallible?
If you had read the previous cerebral palsy case that should have answered your question

[tonibunny]

Hi Ray,

I was diagnosed with infantile idiopathic scoliosis at the age of 6 months, with a double curve of 62/40 degrees, left thoracic, right lumbar. I wore plaster bodycasts and Milwaukee braces until the age of ten when I had my thoracic curve fused from T1-T12 with a Harrington Rod (this being in 1986), following a few weeks in halo traction. My thoracic curve had been 76 degrees and it was reduced to 45 degrees. I had further surgery at the age of 18 (in 1994) to fuse my lumbar curve, extending the fusion down to L4 using Zielke instrumentation, bringing the curve down from 55 degrees to 35 degrees. I also had a costoplasty at this time, and a further costoplasty in 2001. My back now looks fantastic :) My surgeon throughout my life was Mr Michael Edgar FRCS, who was one of the top scoliosis experts in the UK and is an emeritus fellow of the Scoliosis Research Society.

Since late 2001 I have been very active in scoliosis support forums and am a member of staff at scoliosis-support.org, which is based in the UK and has 1000 members. I am on there nearly every day providing support to people with scoliosis and their parents. In addition, I read the other scoliosis support forums and post if I can help in any way because it doesn't really matter where people get support, so long as they get it.

I'd be extremely happy if a device such as yours could cure scoliosis. Of course I am cynical - we have people (especially chiropractors) claiming that they can cure scoliosis and kyphosis all the time. Sometimes people pay a lot of money for treatment that doesn't work, and in the meantime their curvature has progressed to such an extent that they require surgery where they may have avoided it with conventional treatment. I do not want to see this happen to the people I help to support in forums such as this one. You will get hard questions from people like me, but if your device is as successful as you say, then it will eventually prove itself to be a fantastic breakthrough in the treatment of scoliosis.

Surgeons do not make promises of "curing" scoliosis. They always explain the (very minimal) risks, and explain that scoliosis cannot usually be totally removed. However, practically everyone who has the surgery has great results that they are very pleased with, and then go on to live their lives as normal. It's just those few that have ongoing problems (mostly the older generation with Harrington Rods) that turn up on support sites, which makes surgery look more problematic than it actually is.

As you know, in the UK we rarely pay for scoliosis treatment so the situation of "asking for our money back" if we were unhappy with the results of our surgery could not arise. And, as I have said, surgeons are careful to explain the risks and the amount of correction they hope to achieve - they do not make promises. I would imagine that if anything went horribly wrong then a patient could claim compensation, but I have never heard of this happening in the UK.

If you have a London University (which one?) doing studies, and if you contact the SRS, I would be extremely happy to support you. Perhaps you would be willing to treat one of our members (of SSO) for free in order to prove that your treatment works as you say? If they could report back favourably then I would have no problem at all in recommending that people try your treatment.

Could you tell me what the largest degree of curvature you have "cured" is? In large curves the vertebrae often become wedge-shaped, so I am curious as to how it is possible for you to straighten a spine with wedged vertebrae.

Regards,

Toni

[Rayknox]

Hi again Toni,
Thanks for that explanation and description of your experiences. I have always run up against cynicism since the clinics were opened and understandably so. I would be as cynical as the rest until I saw a positive outcome.That was the reason we have promoted ourselves so little. The vast majority of our patients and an increasing no. of scoliosis patients come recommended by other patients. My view was that if the treatment did not work then we would have no patients. The treatment has been around for a few years now and I initially opened the first clinic to prove the concept to myself. I eventually came to the conclusion that lack of experience was the downfall of the treatment. I reckon that a practitioner needs up to two years hands on experience to do the treatment justice. As I think I mentioned I was trained by the inventor of the equipment, who was of an engineering background like myself. Because we would have run across specific complaints maybe only a few times a year, it took time to build up a picture of the results. If we treated a patient with a complaint we were unfamiliar with we did not charge. When we saw that it worked we charged. so we completed many hundred of free or reduced price treatments at the beginning.
My first attempts at severe scoliosis ie>60 degrees were not very successful - there were improvements but not enough for my requirements. However with time and practice I now expect good results. I have a number of severe and not so severe patients under treatment at the moment, ranging from 16 years to 50 years. Very considerable improvements have been made in all of them and pain is gone in all but the oldest patient who has had severe sciatica for many many years now.
We are talking to Kings College at the moment and they have expressed an interest so we will pursue this line in the coming weeks.
Wedge shaped vertebrae - this condition is seen as a major cause of kyphosis in ageing people. Generally we can remove this kyphosis, wedging or no wedging, and we find that there is a twist through the kyphosis. When the twist is reduced the kyphosis is reduced. We remove dowagers hump in the majority of patients.
Idiopathic scoliosis that has been allowed to develop as the child grows causes the most problems. The twists initially reduce quite considerably and then stabilise. The final untwisting we then treat over a longer period to allow the spine to adjust.
I would be quite happy to treat someone you send, free of charge. But try me with someone that is not completely impossible with 90 degrees of curvature. If you wish to do this the patient would have to stay here for a few days and I would need a few days to make a difference.
You will then be free to call me deluded if you wish.

[tonibunny]

Hi Ray,

Thank you for your response! It is very, very good to know that you have so much faith in your treatment that you would be willing to treat someone for free. I'm also pleased that you have been totally honest and said that curves of over 60 degrees would be problematic and 90 degrees would be nigh on impossible. Not all alternative practitioners are as honest as this, and I appreciate it.

Personally I see a 60 degree curvature as moderate rather than severe, but it sounds like your treatment might be of most benefit to people with smaller curves that wouldn't need surgery, but cause a lot of pain? Anything non-invasive that can relieve pain is of course to be welcomed anyway.

I think that it will be difficult for you to "prove" that you are curing scoliosis without the use of before and after x-rays, but I do wish you very good luck with getting proper scientific studies into your treatment sorted out with Kings College. They would give it a lot of credibility. DO let the SRS know about it too; they may be able to help.

I'd love to know how you get on, please keep in touch :-)

Cheers,
Toni

[Rayknox]

Hi Toni,
I agree on the x-ray front, but the problem I am finding is that it is very difficult for the patients to get their x-rays released by their doctor. One patient has been trying to get them for 3 months now, and she would be a very good example as she had a 'severe' scoliosis now reduced to very moderate. I need the x-rays to show the change, but she was told she needed surgery and now looks so normal she will not take it.
Anyway I will keep you posted and if you wish to send someone over I will treat supervised by a GP. If you want a contact number I will send a private message.Thanks for 'listening'
Ray. :)

[Karen Ocker]

Another forum member has written last year that she tried the treatment; she never got back to us to rave about her success.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-1189.html-(Eleniki)

Someone else was trying to sell us that program in 2004(Mr. scoliosis).

What does the treatment cost and what is the usual duration? Also, how long does the correction last after treatments stop???

[trcylynn]

I have to be skeptical on this as well... I tried researching TAMARS and on websites there are only original (if any) pictures of the scoliosis patients. If the treatment cured the scoliois pictures of corrections would be posted and patients would be raving about the treatment on these forums or elsewhere.

[Rayknox]

We charge rates comparable to physio. Usual treatment time is 1 hour.

[gerbo]

Most patients with considerable curves, the ones you suggest you can help and have helped, are likely to be under regular review at an orthopaedic clinic. Even if you cannot get the xrays, the patient should be able to get the clinic letter(s) from the consultant to their GP describing this "miraculous" recovery, which would be quite good evidence.

by the way; what exactly did you mean by "my son's idiopatic scoliosis was due to a crash at 14". If it was due to a crash it wasn't idiopatic, was it? Even without the crash "idiopatic scoliosis" doesn't develop at age 14 (although it might be picked up than first" Could it be that the injury of the crash caused muscle spasm, which caused a temporary scoliosis which disappeared once the effects of the injury wore off?

just curious

[Karen Ocker]

Raynox,
You did not answer my question:

Also, how long does the correction last after treatments stop??Karen Ocker

Also, if the treatment is not covered by NHS what must a person pay out of pocket???? :confused:

[structural75]

Poor guy.... I'm not an advocate of empty promises and such but maybe we could look past the particulars of his choice of wording at times and open ourselves to learn more about this approach. I'm just sitting on the fence with this one, but the usual biting remarks prompt me to say a few words. (Original sources for the quotations will remain nameless as I don't mean to personally offend anyone.)

Do you give a money back guarantee??
Have any doctors been known to give their patients their money back when they return years later with moderate to severe back pain, broken hardware, nerve damage or failed fusions? Just curious... ;) .

Is the treatment administered by a medically qualified doctor, or just an osteopath, chiropractor or other such practitioner?
Just to clarify, an osteopath in the US is a medically qualified doctor, equal to MDs.

How is it possible to say that scoliosis is caused by "a fall on the bottom" when everyone you ask is likely to remember falling thus at some point in the past, but only a handful of people develop scoliosis? Why would a brief shock to the spine cause it to "compress and twist", if there is no damage to the shock-absorbing intervertebral discs?
Obviously a fall on the coccyx will not cause scoliosis in everyone who incurs such a trauma... no two injuries are exactly alike. However if the fall is severe enough and the orientation/direction of impact is 'just right', it can cause a deviated fixation of the tailbone (coccyx) which then disrupts normal spinal mechanics. When you bend your spine in any direction the coccyx must be free to move accordingly and when it is fixated it will consequently cause deviation of the remainder of the spine above. It's not so much due to the force of impact "compressing" the spine, although if one caught it just right it certainly could compromise the discs as they attempt to absorb the impact, leading to an ideopathic scoliosis as the body aims to protect the injured disc(s) from further rupture/damage.

If it was due to a crash it wasn't idiopatic, was it? Even without the crash "idiopatic scoliosis" doesn't develop at age 14 What type of scoliosis (lateral curvature of the spine) would you call it then? Infantile? Structural? Congenital? ... Ideopthic sounds most appropriate to me. Ideopathic being of 'unknown' cause or developing later in life. It sounds like your confusing a general ideopathic description with adolescent ideopathic scoliosis, or AIS.


Someone else was trying to sell us that program in 2004(Mr. scoliosis). Why is it that the presumed intentions of anyone coming on here to share other non-surgical approaches to management is often considered to be "selling" something? If someone does Pilates as a form of exercise have they fallen prey to the mass marketed sales pitch for Pilates in recent years? Maybe people are just trying to share these lesser known approaches with others. The only reason Pilates and Yoga is so popular and widely accepted is because it has become BIG business and 'trendy'... in other words it was marketed well and many are reaping the financial rewards of that marketing. (tight abs and butt, obsessed with 'control' and rigid cores ...the american dream! :rolleyes: ) Are there any substantial studies done with Pilates to validate its use or long-term effect on scoliosis? Why not consider what Ray has put forth, or others in the past, as being potentially useful?

Structural

[SandyC]

Structural,
Perhaps the "poor guy" is being given a hard time because a lot of us on this board have gone thru the searching for an easy fix, human nature being what it is. The same people discovered that "easy" isn't what it is advertised to be. Never mind the time wasted, the amount of $$$$$$$ involved can be very devastating, without results.

I think we should be picking apart the wording being used. If he can't/doesn't know the differance between idopathic/congential etc. then perhaps what is being advertised is a possible real problem!

[structural75]

Sandy,

Fair enough... I see your point. But should other well intended folks or practitioners be treated with disdain for your own misconceptions that there is an "easy fix" to this problem. It seems like what you're saying is that human nature leads us to search for quick and easy solutions (and I agree that most are not interested in investing any significant time into the care and management of their bodies until something actually goes wrong enough to create noticeable problems) and if that doesn't work we should jump to the other end of the spectrum and consider the most radical and life changing ones. Sounds like a case of massive societal bipolar disorder... .

I do believe there is a balance somewhere in the middle that can be utilized intelligently as a first line of defense.

I can see where you're coming from and I notice it in my own practice. People come in often wanting "miracles" with as little effort and commitment possible. People expect the quick fix because they would rather buy a new pair of shoes or outfit, go to dinner at a nice restaurant, go to the movies, take an expensive vacation, etc. rather than invest in their own health. Many folks will put more time, money and energy into maintenance of their home or car than they will in the maintenance of their body. And in the end, they wait until things get so bad that surgical intervention and/or drug therapy are the only real options, ... and the last ones.

So I have to ask: Is it the practitioners driving this 'advertising' scheme for quick fixes, or those seeking out the "easy fix"? I think it's a little of both... practitioner and the patient. Some practitioners are just greasy jerks out to take peoples money, and others are trying to compete with their 'greasy' colleagues' success at doing so by advertising 'quick fixes'. And lastly, there are in fact some good apples out there who care about their patients and promise nothing but the best treatment they can offer with honesty and integrity.

I don't know this guy, and as I said, I'm on the fence regarding this one (I myself am skeptical that just a few hours of treatment is going to have that significant of an effect... but it doesn't mean that it's totally ineffective). But it still seems quite critical... why don't those involved in the discussion do some searching to learn more about the work... how it works, what is its premise, how does it achieve these supposed results... and ultimately does it sound logical and reasonable. Maybe it would offer some more insight into what he's talking about. But to sit back and say 'show me the studies and research etc.' is simply antagonistic rather than a productive inquiry into unknown territory.

I don't recall him not knowing the difference between ideopathic and congenital scoliosis, but maybe it's somewhere in there... . However, at the same time, there have been other topics on this forum of which many of you knew nothing or little about but people still chose to offer their opinion on it. Is that appropriate?

Structural

[tonibunny]

Structural,

Thanks for jumping in on this thread and trying to help, but if you read, you'll see that Ray answered all of my questions himself. I was actually pleased with the answers he gave me and I don't require anyone else answering on his behalf. Ray has accepted that he will get hard questions from people on boards such as this one, but I think that it's to his credit that he answered everything I asked honestly.

You have missed the context of our conversation. Ray's based in Northern Ireland which is part of the UK, and here in the UK chiropractors are NOT qualified doctors. In addition, we addressed the "would you ask your surgeon for a money-back guarantee" question too.

Ray has faith in his device and is in talks with an extremely well-respected London university to run proper clinical trials. Whilst I could not yet recommend Ray's treatment to anyone, I respect the way he answered all of my questions with honesty, I respect him for offering to treat someone I sent him for free in order to prove that his device works, I respect that he has admitted the limitations of his treatment, and I will definitely be staying in touch with him to see how he gets on with the London university.

Regards,

Toni

[structural75]

Toni,
First, please don't patronize me... My skin has toughened up since coming to this forum... and secondly, I did read the entire thread... . I would expect someone to respond as you have... they usually do. It's interesting how several people can jump on a wagon together and come at Ray with doubtful and sarcastic remarks but when one person pops forth to point it out, well now I'm in the wrong. ????

I wasn't attempting to answer on his behalf. I was, however, casually commenting on a few points/questions/ideas from my own perspective and clinical experience. Seeing as how everyone else has been free to do the same with me and my previous postings, ... What's the harm???

I didn't accuse you of anything, so why the tense response here? It was actually a couple of others who presented some questions and comments to him in a negative tone... I think it's obvious that I respect this total stranger and am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, partly because I've been in his shoes before and YES, he does show honesty and integrity in his responses. So what's the problem here again?

No, I have not missed the context of your conversation... and I was referring to "osteopaths" in the US not chiropractors in the UK. Is TAMARS treatment solely used in the UK? I recall seeing this device demonstrated here in the states. Besides, why would it be more important to have an MD oversee its use when it is designed to mimic the work of manipulative practitioners such as Osteopaths? Wouldn't "qualified" oversight be more appropriate from someone who actually knows what the machine is doing? MDs are generally clueless about manipulative work, so how do they qualify as the leading experts here?

In any case, onward with your discussion. Sorry to interrupt. Next time I'll ask for your permission.

Structural

[Rayknox]

I am out of the country at the moment and have just a couple of minutes to write a quick few words on a borrowed computer. When I return I will respond to a lot of the interesting points that have been raised. I want to consider my replies carefully as everything I say is being picked apart by some people but interesting comments never the less. I don't mind criticism if it is constructive.
Ray.

[Celia Vogel]

Rayknox,

I don't think anyone needs to pick apart your words to see that your overall message is a bit over the top! Who do you think you're kidding???? You then have the gall to make these assertions without x-rays to back up your claims????? GET REAL!!!!! :mad:


Just the other day I was wondering when we were due for another lively discussion/debate with alternative practitioners making unsubstantiated expensive claims and here we are :D

[tonibunny]

Please, calm down chaps! :D

Structural, I just tried to point out that I had got answers from Ray and was happy with what he has told me. He hasn't tried to claim a miracle cure; he's excited about the possibilities of his treatment and he is seeking to have proper studies done. I respect his honesty and I wish him well because he could well be onto something, and he's happy for me to reserve judgement for the time being.

It does seem that your comments about my discussion with Ray were somewhat inflammatory, when in fact our discussion (which *was* in the context of medical treatment in the UK) has been calm, friendly and respectful. Whilst I did make doubtful comments, none of them were sarcastic, and I certainly didn't gang up on him with anyone else!

I have warmed to Ray because he is arranging to have studies done by a very well respected London university, which will by necessity incorporate the use of x-rays. Until these studies are done I shall reserve judgement.

[structural75]

Toni,

Point taken... thank you and my apologies for any inflammatory remarks. I hope you realize that it wasn't you that I was referring to, ...as you said, you were healthfully skeptical but having a respectful conversation as well. Trust me, I'm not looking to begin another insidious debate with the less informed. We're all adults here and I would presume that we're all capable of educating ourselves outside of this forum... to each his/her own.

structural

Celia,

I myself was wondering when you'd chime in on this one.

There was a time, not so long ago within the past century that what we now consider to be 'conventional'' medicine was in fact the "alternative". If we're going to be sticklers about 'scientific' medicine then consider this. When was the last time you read or knew of a study done on all of the thousands, if not more, combinations of drugs administered to millions of people every day? Sure, they do studies on the individual drugs themselves, but are there studies to substantiate and confirm the safety of any number of combinations often prescribed? No there is not. So we have no idea what the potential consequences of these combinations may have in the long run. That's not 'scientific' medicine, that's educated guessing at best.

Last I knew Celia, you brace your daughter. Now if that's not "alternative" to surgery and drugs, what is? I don't appreciate your slander once again toward specialists of musculoskeletal conditions. You might have a leg to stand on when all of the spinecor MDs you support without question can get a grasp on the inadvertent arise of tenacious secondary curves from their brace. Their claim that the secondary curves are "inconsequential" are just as "unsubstantiated" as anything put forth here!

By the way, "expensive claims"... ? Do you realize how much treatment one could receive for the equivalent cost of the spinecor brace alone, never mind all the Drs visits, x-rays, travel expenses, additional straps and the duration of all that spent forcing the body against its inherent will? People don't need to spend years doing something if it doesn't show improvements... at least they should be wise enough not to. I don't think Ray was suggesting to discard everything else and spend enormous amounts of money on something if it's not working. Doing these things in combination would seem ideal to me, but that's obviously just my opinion... I know you like to put all of your eggs in one basket.

structural

[Celia Vogel]

Once again you're out in the left field grasping for analogies, what does drugs have to do with the topic! :confused: There is no slander here! Results, that's the key word. You can spend enormous sums of money spinning your wheels and getting no where or you could do something that has proven results - therein lies the difference in the non operative treatment of scoliosis. You can say all you want but until you can prove your treatment works no-one is going to buy into it! Period! We also have very differing views in our interpretation of musculoskeletal specialists and snake oil salesmen.

[structural75]

Read between the lines... .

We also have very differing views in our interpretation of musculoskeletal specialists and snake oil salesmen.
If calling alternative practitioners snake oil salesmen isn't slander, then I don't know what is.

Just because "alternative practitioners" aren't rolling in money as your MDs are and can't afford expensive studies for your reading pleasure, it doesn't mean that there haven't been clinical successes. And keep in mind that not nearly everyone who makes the expensive and time consuming efforts with bracing have success with it, proven or unproven with studies! You can talk about expensive treatments all you like, but when it comes down to it, you're chosen method is one of the most expensive out there and it doesn't guarantee results either.

And for the record lady, nobody needs to "buy" into my complimentary approach because I run a non-profit scoliosis clinic for children and adolescents. I do this because: 1) I care about these children 2) Everyone, regardless of financial abilities, should be able to provide the best comprehensive care possible for their children 3) I believe ideopathic scoliosis is caused by a wide array of factors, each unique to the individual. It's not a disease, and it isn't always due to genetics. There are many possible reasons why someone would develop a lateral curvature of the spine. Therefore, there will probably never be one solution to this problem that works all of the time and the predictability of treatment outcome will probably always remain somewhat questionable.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand how some of these "alternative" approaches could be effective in many cases (TAMARS, structural integration, etc). You don't seem to understand what the braces your daughter has worn are doing to make those corrections. If you did, you might see the logic and capabilities of these other approaches as completely viable compliments to the bracing process. So until you're able to understand the physical and physiologic changes that the braces create, I don't see how you have any right to dismiss these other methods so rudely.

Good Day

[Celia Vogel]

....Just because "alternative practitioners" aren't rolling in money as your MDs are and can't afford expensive studies for your reading pleasure, it doesn't mean that there haven't been clinical successes. And keep in mind that not nearly everyone who makes the expensive and time consuming efforts with bracing have success with it, proven or unproven with studies! You can talk about expensive treatments all you like, but when it comes down to it, you're chosen method is one of the most expensive out there and it doesn't guarantee results either.


Actually, my chosen method didn't cost me too much as most of it was covered by insurance! I don't know how you interpret success, but we're having pretty *darn* good luck with our chosen method, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!! :D Since you have brought up the clinical successes experienced by alternative practitioners that are not found in studies and we don't have the pleasure of reading, please share with us the miraculous success you've experienced in your own personal trials with scoliosis and how structural integration helped resolve your 25 degree curvature. :p

[structural75]

You're a heartless #@$@$! You have some real balls to question and belittle my personal experience and suggest that I'm being dishonest.

I'm glad your daughter's doing well and hope it continues, ...update me when she's quite a bit older though, and finished her major growth spurts. And please explain to all of those folks out there who didn't have the results you're currently having with bracing (for correction and/or pain) why it didn't work for them and what they should do. Is it time for surgery for them? Should they not explore any other options but the one that has already failed?

The world doesn't revolve around 'Celia', ...there are people who have tried you're approved method and are at a loss as to what to do. So what is the harm in offering suggestions for additional approaches?

Happy Memorial Day!

p.s.- Maybe if we had some serious health care reform in this ridiculously opulent country of ours we would have more choices and ability in getting the care we need. Some insurance companies do cover structural integration, but at the moment it's not many. Meanwhile, millions of people can't afford even basic health insurance because those that have it are driving up the cost , MDs are charging them outrageous sums for their services and drug/technology companies are making billions in profits.

There are European countries that spend 9% of their GNP on universal health care for all. The US, who doesn't offer universal health care and has millions of people uninsured, spends 16% of their GNP on it. What's wrong with this picture??? In the meantime you're getting coverage and then traveling to Canada for the care.???

[Celia Vogel]

You're a heartless #@$@$! You have some real balls to question and belittle my personal experience and suggest that I'm being dishonest.



I beg your pardon???! I've had enough of your questioning my chosen path and insulting my doctors. I'm perfectly aware that not everyone is having the same success and who knows what will happen during the adolescent growth spurt, I don't have a crystal ball. There are many ills in this world, but some things like the state of health care and turmoil in the middle east are beyond my control so I won't stress over it. Why can't you share your personal experience with scoliosis and how structural integration helped??? Prove me wrong that you're not a liar. :cool:

[Rayknox]

Now back in the country.
Well that little break has stirred up what sounds like an old argument.
Structural - I do not know your background, but your answers probably took some of the pressure off me having to state a lot of what you said.
Please refer to my original posting and in hindsight my words were obviously open to a different interpretation than I intended.
We do get very good results with the majority of our scoliosis patients, and the results are visible - invasive x-rays are not necessary to see the changes. If you do not believe this then you can only come and observe. It is not rocket science to measure a rib-hump or a kyphosis and monitor the changes.
How long do the changes last. There would have been no use in my stating results a week after treatment and stating there was no regression. Hence I mentioned the cerebral palsy case. I can also use my own son as an example.
My use of the term idiopathic for my own son is because that would be the medical term for it. We were not aware of my sons scoliosis until he was in his 20's. I am convinced the condition was caused by a fall in his mid teens but how do I prove this without a time machine to go back and check his spine before the accident.
I still am convinced that lots of scoliosis conditions are caused by a fall. My theory on spinal compression is disputed but who can say I am wrong. The 15 year old female patient that I mentioned was 2.5cm taller after her first treatment and this did not regress. You give me your scientific explanation of this! This patient by the way had x-rays, MRI scans, bone scans etc and never once was she told that she had curvatures. My cat could have seen the curvature when she lay down. My cat would now tell me the curvature is now gone. As are all her symtoms.
Her condition would have been diagnosed as being idiopathic if they had noticed the curvatures. All they could tell her was that she had degenerated upper lumbar discs(idiopathic?) and would never play sport again. So much for that.
Karen mentioned that a forum member tried the treatment but did not report back. I did say that inexperienced practitioners will not get good results. There are very few people that have specialised in this treatment and this is a big problem. There is absolutely no point in giving this equipment to a physio or anyone else for them to use it one or two hours a week and then expect good results. I have been working with this 6 to 8 hours a day, 6 days a week for three and a half years now and I am still learning.
I had a visit last year from a US chiropractor of 15 years experience. After his 4 days that he had booked for hands on training he lenghtened his stay as he found it so difficult to master.
Sandy again the idiopathic/ congenital issue. Idiopathic is no known cause. Just because there is no known cause does not mean there is no cause. There has to be a cause. This is why I raised the issue of falls on the pelvic region. Until you get experienced with this treatment you will not believe that I can very quickly tell if this is the cause by the feel of the spine through the TAMARS handset. Mock all you like- it is a fact. And until you sort out the problems caused by the fall you will not resolve the scoliosis.
Celia - I do not have the 'gall' to make assertions without x-rays. In most cases the evidence is visible. Don't criticise something you know nothing about. You ask for results. I have results but have not published as I know that people like you want x-rays. I am trying to rectify this as I have said.
To conclude, it was very useful communications from people like toni and structural Some other comments were natural scepticism from concerned interested parties.Some were just rude. I am not advertising. I am only stating what I have discovered.
Feel free to continue the discussion.
Ray

[Karen Ocker]

I searched the web for info on the TAMARS treatment. It's marketed as a device for physical therapy to do deep massage for back pain. The company does NOT claim it as a treatment for scoliosis. So why are we discussing it here?

http://www.skycapitalventures.com/portfolio_companies/spinal_tech/index.html

The only persons claiming it works for scoliosis are individual practitioners who are advertising their services on-line.

My concern here, MR. Knox, that you are trying to drum up business on this forum-using a device for a disorder that the maker does not even claim it helps.



As a medical professional I cannot, for the life of me, see how it can reposition a scoliotic spine permanently. It might be great for back spasm and is touted as giving relief to PTs who must administer deep massage.

We should all be so lucky to have such a simple solution.

[Rayknox]

The company you mention will not make a claim that does not have a clinical trial as proof. This is the company I am hoping will start a trial in the US in the near future. A deep massage !! Again you comment on something you know nothing about. There are two main modes to this treatment. The mobilisation mode which counter-rotates the vertebrae and the reflex mode which stimulates the spinal muscle reflexes. This latter mode is the the mode which gets the spine to straighten. The mobilisation purely frees up the joints. Obviously if the joints are stiff they will not straighten.
Maybe this is the reason for so many of the negative comments. No-one understands the treatment.
And who do you think is the 'maker' It is not this American company.It was designed by an engineer in England. And you will find that he claims the treatment reduces curvatures. I now know that he is correct.
I do not need to drum up business. I can barely cope with what I have.I only discovered this forum last week and thought it might be useful to someone to discuss my findings. If I wanted to get business I would have mentioned my web site. I had no intention of doing so but if you find it maybe you will learn more.
You do not state what sort of a medical professional you are. But unfortunately your response is typical of a lot of medical people - ' I have never heard of it or was not taught the treatment so obviously it must be rubbish'.

[structural75]

Ray,

Very well put. I hope that you can see I'm not here to discredit you, but rather quite the contrary. I happen to agree with everything you stated in the last couple of posts, and even prior. And you're right, it did stir up an old argument... But as you can see, I have to watch my back constantly here and I was trying to wade gently without creating another disturbance for the sharks.

I really wish people would make some effort to understand how things work before casting negative remarks about them. And you're correct, it is not just the device that is important in treatment, but the skill of the person administering treatment with it. Same in my profession, some practitioners are much more skilled and effective at achieving change than others. And this will always be the case involving the human application of treatment. Just as some surgeons are bad, good and exceptional.

I don't know why people can't seem to understand this... after all, I hear them repeatedly praising the spinecor but questioning the people fitting the brace when it doesn't work. How is something like the TAMARS any different?

I agree completely that it's not rocket science to be able to see and palpate a curvature (and any subsequent changes). Anyone who can't probably should have no business working with the human body.

Karen,
My concern here, MR. Knox, that you are trying to drum up business on this forum-using a device for a disorder that the maker does not even claim it helps.
This should be right up your 'medically qualified' ally (Celia, you're going to love this one... another from "left field"). A new drug known as Lyrica recently hit the market (a few years back) and it was made, tested and intended for use solely on shingles and diabetic neuropathic pain. Now just about every pain management Doc out there is prescribing its use for a variety of forms of nerve pain that it was never tested for and DOES NOT claim to treat. Nor do we know anything about its long term effects. Is that appropriate use of medicine by Drs? If it helps people is it appropriate to use? We wouldn't be where we are today in the field of health care and medicine if those involved didn't think outside the box imposed upon them by their predecessors. Any individual with an ounce of common sense would, and should, be able to connect the dots and look at further benefits of any given therapy.

And how about Pilates? I know you're an advocate of it... so is it appropriate to utilize or promote its use as you have when it was never intended to treat scoliosis?

And "deep massage"???? How do you extract "deep massage" from a device called a "micro-manipulator"? Do you have any understanding at all about what this device is doing? Do you have any understanding of the properties of fascial tissue? Or it's scientifically validated response to intelligent manipulation? Or how about its role in forming and maintaining the structural integrity and position of our bodies? Do you know why bracing actually works sometimes and what it is doing to this network of tissue?

It doesn't seem as though some of you understand a bit of this and so I don't see how you're qualified to dismiss methods that work within this realm.

As a medical professional I cannot, for the life of me, see how it can reposition a scoliotic spine permanently. It might be great for back spasm and is touted as giving relief to PTs who must administer deep massage.That's unfortunate, maybe you should redefine your expertise as a "medical professional". What type is that again? Wasn't it something to do with drugs? I wouldn't expect you to know as most Drs don't have the slightest clue either.

Maybe this will help as a starting point: http://www.fascia2007.com/about.htm

structural

[structural75]

Celia,
I've had enough of your questioning my chosen path and insulting my doctors. I'm perfectly aware that not everyone is having the same success and who knows what will happen during the adolescent growth spurt, ...I believe you're the one questioning my chosen path and insulting my methods... Right? All I've said to you is that you just can't say for sure what will happen. Unfortunately doubt and uncertainty permeate this topic of scoliosis relentlessly... in every matter at hand.

If you're aware that not everyone is having the same success then... What do YOU suggest they do?

You know, despite obvious disdain we display toward each other I can only wish and hope that someday you can open yourself up to consider the potential benefits of more than just bracing. It's a shotgun approach, not a bad one, but could still be nicely complimented with more specific intervention... Who knows, maybe along the way we would start to address the "unknown" cause(s) of this problem when we treat it more specifically, mindfully and intelligently.

And I'm sorry, but I don't have a need to prove anything to you, like it or not.

structural

[Celia Vogel]

Karen,

I'm with you 100% of the way on this!!!! You go Girl!!!! :D

[Celia Vogel]

Toni,

You don't really believe this charlatan do you????? He's agreeing to treat one of your friends for a couple of days, that proves nothing. On top of that no x-rays to show results!!!!! Ya, I know where this is going.... :rolleyes:

[structural75]

Karen,

I'm with you 100% of the way on this!!!! You go Girl!!!! :D
Talk about chaining yourself to the titanic... !?

[Celia Vogel]

I don't think even your hot air will suffice to keep you afloat with this one :D


Ray,

Very well put. I hope that you can see I'm not here to discredit you, but rather quite the contrary. I happen to agree with everything you stated in the last couple of posts, and even prior. l




-A very common cause of the scoliosis appears to be a fall on the bottom - falling on ice or off a trampoline are regular culprits. This compresses the spine and the spine then gradually twists. If the fall happens at a young age then, with growth, the scoliosis increases in severity. The TAMARS treatment frees up the spine and removes the twists, sometimes very spectacularly. Success is measured by complete removal of pain and or large reduction if not complete removal of curvatures.

-Can I state first of all that I got involved with this treatment because I had a son with 'idiopathic' scoliosis - lumbar and thoracic curvatures and a 2cm rib hump. I also had bad sciatic pain myself that I couild not get cured and my wife had a very badly twisted spine that was untreatable. We all now have backs that are practically normal. My son's scoliosis is 95% gone and there is no rib hump.

-80 degree curvatures are obviously much more difficult than actually getting patients before they have been allowed to progress to this stage. Especially if the scoliosis began in childhood. Every patient is different - some respond very quickly, some are very hard work but they all show a reduction - many to zero.

- a cerebral palsy patient, awaiting harrington rods to cure his scoliosis had his mainly lumbar curvature removed in two sessions. Unusually quick but true nevertheless. He returned a year later, out of his wheelchair with his spine in the same condition, and now riding motorcycles. In his words the fourth wonder of the world.

- My first attempts at severe scoliosis ie>60 degrees were not very successful - there were improvements but not enough for my requirements. However with time and practice I now expect good results. I have a number of severe and not so severe patients under treatment at the moment, ranging from 16 years to 50 years. Very considerable improvements have been made in all of them and pain is gone in all but the oldest patient who has had severe sciatica for many many years now.

-Wedge shaped vertebrae - this condition is seen as a major cause of kyphosis in ageing people. Generally we can remove this kyphosis, wedging or no wedging, and we find that there is a twist through the kyphosis. When the twist is reduced the kyphosis is reduced. We remove dowagers hump in the majority of patients.




Rayknox then states he is getting advice from his cat ??? :confused:


The 15 year old female patient that I mentioned was 2.5cm taller after her first treatment and this did not regress. You give me your scientific explanation of this! This patient by the way had x-rays, MRI scans, bone scans etc and never once was she told that she had curvatures. My cat could have seen the curvature when she lay down. My cat would now tell me the curvature is now gone.

[structural75]

Celia,
What's your point? Do you have anything to say regarding your serious lack of knowledge on the subjects at hand? You've managed again to skirt around every question I ask and points on the matter that aren't insults or abusive remarks. You might want to take a step back and reconsider your purpose for posting this slanderous non-sense and abuse. It seems you may have some serious insecurities.

I'm sure your making the right decisions for yourself and your daughter... but remember they are yours, and only yours to make. If others chose to educate themselves in the larger world beyond bracing alone, then let them. Nobody needs your abuse or conspiracy theories. It serves no productive purpose and detracts from the quality of these discussions.

p.s.-I think the comment regarding his cat was sarcasm. ;) That's just my opinion.... but hey, what do I know?

[gerbo]

It does appear that practitioners using unproven methods have a lot to loose from proper evidence as it might just show that what they are selling to the unsuspecting public has no real value, or might even be harmful and they would be at risk of loosing their livelihood. As lots of "alternative" practitioners make a good living out of selling "hope" (which might be false hope) they have nothing to gain from evidence of effectiveness and will resist therefore proper scientific evaluation of their methods. Evidence is their enemy

As patients, or parents of patients, we are in the exactly opposite position as with the wide range of treatmentoptions on the table, and knowing that time doesn't work in our favour, we need the best available evidence to decide which treatment to choose. we cannot afford to loose time on something what at best makes no difference and at worse could make things worse. Evidence is our friend (although it can be a very harsh and painfully honest friend, like any good friend should be)

Two guiding principles;
1) Lack of evidence of benefit= lack of evidence of potential harmfulness
2) False hope = worse than no hope (whilst providing a good income to the practitioner dealing in it)

[Celia Vogel]

Celia,
What's your point? Do you have anything to say regarding your serious lack of knowledge on the subjects at hand? You've managed again to skirt around every question I ask and points on the matter that aren't insults or abusive remarks. You might want to take a step back and reconsider your purpose for posting this slanderous non-sense and abuse. It seems you may have some serious insecurities.

:D UNBELIEVABLE!!!!


Gerbo,

Of course!!!! This explains lack published studies....Gerbo you are one smart dude!!!! Needless to say this will have no impact on these delusional practitioners who have their heads in the clouds and their eyes firmly set on their bank accounts. Don't hold your breath because there is sure to be an extra long winded novel by "he who must be obeyed" :rolleyes:

[Rayknox]

As I have already stated, we are trying to get the proper evidence, to show to patients or parents that this treatment is of benefit. I understand your reasoning that patients do not want to go down a route that might prove useless or even dangerous. I would feel exactly the same. However if another sufferer came to me and said that he, or a child of theirs was well improved after one of these treatments, then I would certainly look at it. The treatment worked for my son so I have first hand experience.

[structural75]

Gerbo,

It does appear that practitioners using unproven methods have a lot to loose from proper evidence as it might just show that what they are selling to the unsuspecting public has no real value, or might even be harmful and they would be at risk of loosing their livelihood.It appears the same for your Drs who are promoting this brace only to find it is producing secondary curves of supposedly "no consequence". We all know that if I worked with someone and they developed a secondary curve as a result you'd be all over me casting doubts... Am I right?

I would love for someone with a deep pocket such as your doctors and brace company to offer the money to fund a study. Unfortunately I make a humble but adequate living and I don't have the deep pocket you're suggesting I do. If what I did was a scam then why do people continue to come and then get on with their lives in a better place without ongoing treatment for years to come? There's no way you can sit there and tell me, or anyone on this forum, that what I do is ineffective.

And in case you hadn't read my previous posts, I run a not-for-profit childrens scoliosis clinic. No Profit... No Charge... as I'm fully aware that parents are already in debt trying to cover their conventional medical expenses. And even if there were studies 'proving' positive effects, I wouldn't charge for it. That's what I consider "false hope". Relying on studies that show far less than 100% results only to have only a handful achieve that success (such as the case with bracing). How many people utilize bracing with the "hope" it will work only to discover years later it didn't matter?

It's interesting to note that despite your "evidence" based approach you are dealing with a rather tenacious secondary curve brought on by your "evidence" supported brace. ??? What happened to do no harm? Do you in fact know for certain that the brace is NOT causing harm? Is there a study in your library of info that 'proves' this supposed fact?

Again, neither you nor some others here have the slightest bit of understanding about these methods, even the mechanism behind the bracing. So you can cast doubt into this forum about other approaches causing potential harm, but until you get the slightest clue about what you're talking about from a real life anatomical/physiological standpoint then you have absolutely no idea what you're suggesting.

If neither of you can have a discussion or an interest in understanding the mechanisms behind how these things work (including your brace) then I see no point in continuing down this path again.

structural

[gerbo]

this is how one looks at available evidence re bracing;

there is a multitude of studies which show that patients being treated with hard braces do better than people not being treated (other factors being the same). However these studies also show that a group will progress regardless of bracing, but that group is smaller in the "braced" group. As a parent (or clinician) you make the judgement that "based on the available evidence" you have a better chance controlling scoliosis with a brace, than without; but no garantee!!

with regard to spinecor; there is currently only one big published study, which happens to show much better outcomes than not bracing, and even better outcomes than hardbracing.

However, is is clear from available evidence (so no hiding or pretending there) that not everybody benefits from it. Once again; the chance that you avoid surgery is bigger when you use the spinecor compared to not using anything, but there are no garantees.

There are lots of other factors which have to be taken into account but at least with spinecor and other forms of bracing we have something to base our decisions on.

with regards to the effectiveness of your treatment; I am sure that we have agreed in the past that your treatment might make people feel better, but has never significantly improved the curve of a scoliosis patient, or stopped its progression. Or are you claiming again that it does?

And why do people keep coming? In desperation hope is very seductive..... (been there, done that....) And no doubt, a good relaxing backmassage does anybody the world of good (but as far as the available evidence suggest will not improve anybody's scoliosis)

[structural75]

Gerbo,

1) It has clinically proven to change a scoliotic curvature. Whether or not it's in a study does not negate its reality. http://erikdalton.com/articles.htm#Scoliosis:%20A%20Case%20Study
but has never significantly improved the curve of a scoliosis patient,Interesting that you're now stating supposed facts with not an ounce of proof to back it up. Where did you get this stat from? Have you spoken with anyone and everyone with scoliosis who has utilized this approach? In addition, it has been very successful at treating many conditions that conventional medicine could not affect. Do your research!

2) Structural integration/fascial manipulation has nothing to do with massage! Please educate yourself before making such assumptions. It is sometimes referred to as such because many folks need something to compare it to to understand it. Otherwise, it has nothing to do with relaxing muscles or stimulating blood flow, as massage is intended to do. www.theiasi.org

3) People come to me often after more conventional and widely accepted methods fail to achieve the desired effect. I don't continuing treating anyone if we aren't getting results (for any condition).

[Celia Vogel]

I vaguely recall the title of this thread is TAMARS rather than STRUCTURAL INTEGRATION!!!! :eek: Gerbo, I urge you not to provide what's his name a forum to advertise his unsubstantiated methods whether or not they are "non profit" I find these claims hard to believe as well, since his credibility is virtually nil with me at this point.

[zuma]

Just a couple of questions i picked up from reading posts in this thread

Celia you mentioned that spinecor doesn't cost you because you are insured, my understanding of insurance is that once you make a claim it pushes up premiums so you are paying for it in reality as the more we claim the more we pay.

Gerbo, in your last reply you didn't answer the question of the secondary curve that seems to develop in a number of cases (if you did sorry i missed it).

Just one other point wasn't spinecor at one time classed as being "left field" and out on the edge its in developmental stages, were people as cynical then about spinecor as a number seem to be about certain treatments that are now "left field" and out on the edge of so called mainstream treatments.

Why can't we all live and co exist with one another in harmony instead of always trying to discredit after all the reason why were all here is we are either suffering ourselves, doing our best for our loved ones or trying our best to control this dam condition.

Ray, i hope you get the study of the ground with the university and it proves to be a massive success it would be great to read a success story instead of all this negativity

z

p.s. i never seen a poor surgeon

[Celia Vogel]

...Celia you mentioned that spinecor doesn't cost you because you are insured, my understanding of insurance is that once you make a claim it pushes up premiums so you are paying for it in reality as the more we claim the more we pay.


Thank you for pointing out the obvious to me, I'm well aware how insurance works and I don't believe the majority of people are going to put in a claim for the spinecor brace. Last time I checked most insurance companies weren't suffering financially ;)


...Why can't we all live and co exist with one another in harmony instead of always trying to discredit after all the reason why were all here is we are either suffering ourselves, doing our best for our loved ones or trying our best to control this dam condition..

You should address your question directly to what's his name, since he made the following comments. I'm all for peace, love, harmony and touchy feely moments but certainly not with someone as abusive and downright rude. This man professes to be an "MD" and is treating children???




...You're a heartless #@$@$! You have some real balls to question and belittle my personal experience and suggest that I'm being dishonest. I'm glad your daughter's doing well and hope it continues, ...update me when she's quite a bit older though, and finished her major growth spurts.

What's your point? Do you have anything to say regarding your serious lack of knowledge on the subjects at hand? You've managed again to skirt around every question I ask and points on the matter that aren't insults or abusive remarks. You might want to take a step back and reconsider your purpose for posting this slanderous non-sense and abuse. It seems you may have some serious insecurities...

[Karen Ocker]

Mr. Knox/structural

Electrical stimulation was widely tried in the 1980's. Sounded great in some smaller studies. Here is a study with a long follow up I found in the National Library of Medicine:

1: Clin Orthop Relat Res. 1988 Apr;(229):107-13. Links
Electrical stimulation in the treatment of idiopathic scoliosis.O'Donnell CS, Bunnell WP, Betz RR, Bowen JR, Tipping CR.
Thomas Jefferson University Hospital, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Sixty-two fully compliant patients (with 94 curves) met protocol criteria of 20 degree-39 degree curves, Risser iliac crest signs of 0, 1, or 2, and no prior treatment. Both clinical and roentgenographic examinations were performed before, during, and after treatment. The follow-up periods averaged 2.3 years, with a 3.2-year average follow-up period for patients who completed, rather than failed, Electro Spinal Orthosis (ESO) treatment. Seventy-one percent of the 20 degree-29 degree curves and 66% of the 30 degree-39 degree curves had progressed 5 degrees or more at follow-up evaluation. Fifty percent of the patients had a follow-up curve of at least 40 degrees or were treated by posterior spinal fusion and were considered treatment failures. The curve progression paralleled that found in natural history studies, and the rate of failure exceeded that found in orthotic treatment studies.

PMID: 3258214 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Regarding Pilates:
I have been practicing that modality for at least 7 years: Two years before my revision in 2002 and since then. I was fortunate to have a dedicated certified instructor who worked around my situation. It is very hard work and requires continuous committment. It had nothing to do with "abs" being an American dream. It had helped reduce pain pre-op and helped me regain conditioning post-op which keeps me totally pain free.

FYI Joseph Pilates was a nurse working with the war injured in England. He devised various exercises/equipment with which the soldiers could regain as much function as possible. Those techniques are employed in the Pilates methods.
No one I ever met in that program asserted that Pilates improved scoliosis but it did gave me an improved stamina and muscle strength despite my long fusion.

Regarding Tamars: Approach the Scoliosis Research Society with your ideas.

In the US, a study must be cleared by an IRB (institutional review board) to make sure it has a reasonable hypothesis and the risks/possible benefits to the proposed treatments are made known to the prospective patients. The risks being harm from delayed treatment or in fact FROM the treatment. Most studies do not require the patient to pay out of pocket but are paid from grants.

Ninety-nine percent of us on this forum are sufferers of this heartbreaking disorder called scoliosis. We share our experience, strength and hope with each other thus we have a special validity. Many others have posted great NEW ways to help us. Many of us have tried, spending lots of money.

When someone posts saying scoliosis resulted from a "fall on the bottom" it comes across to us as totally ludicrous when a familial gene has been identified as causing "idiopathic" scoliosis.
Not using x-rays or at least a MRI to assess scoliosis is irresponsible. What if there is a tumor or other defect not visible to the naked eye?

If you are so successful as you claim, word of mouth will spread far and wide and the medical establishment won't be far behind. In the meantime it looks like a hard sell.




Please do us a favor and don't waste our time.

[tonibunny]

Toni,

You don't really believe this charlatan do you????? He's agreeing to treat one of your friends for a couple of days, that proves nothing. On top of that no x-rays to show results!!!!! Ya, I know where this is going.... :rolleyes:

Hey Celia ;)

I'm interested that Ray's actually seeking to have proper scientific studies done by a prestigious London university. You know as well as I do that these studies will HAVE to include x-rays as proof :) I can't believe anything without x-rays, and I can't recommend a treatment like this to anyone without evidence taken from solid independent research, but I respect the fact that Ray's making the effort to get that research done. That seems like a lot more than most "alternative practitioners" here seem to be prepared to do!

I couldn't send a friend or acquaintance along to Ray without the evidence from proper studies either (as staff at SSO I couldn't put someone at any sort of risk from an untested treatment), but I respect the fact that he's put his money where his mouth is and said "yes OK, send someone to me and I'll treat them for free so you can see the results". Again this isn't something I've ever seen another alternative practitioner do. If I wasn't already fused I'd take him up on his offer myself :D

There are a few things that I don't really agree with (ie the idea that scoliosis is caused by a fall, and that Ray could see a curve that was missed on x-ray and MRI). These things will come out in the scientific studies though. I respect Ray for answering all my questions, and basically I'm reserving judgement until I get to see the studies. I think that's fair :D

[Rayknox]

Electrical stimulation- where has this come from- is this all you know about the TAMARS treatment. Get your facts right before you bring up such rubbish. There is nothing electrical about TAMARS.
Reputation far and wide- does the fact that the average time patients take to get to our clinic is about 2 hours. Some come from 400 miles away which is as far as you can get on this island. We have regular patients from England and the occasional one from America. This is all because of our reputation. Which is spread by our patients. We are getting favourable comments from orthopaedic surgeons and we are treating GP's who cannot get sorted anywhere else. We have had nurses sent by hospitals and we have treated dozens of nurses.
We must be doing something right.
If I read things correctly, a gene has not been found that causes I.S. It sounds more like a gene has been found in patients that have developed I.S. that is not present in normal patients. Who knows what this gene does. It may just make some people more flexible or something of that nature.
If the other postings you do to these forums are like this then I feel sorry for the forum.

[structural75]

Celia,
This man professes to be an "MD" and is treating children???When did I profess to be an MD???? Have you stooped so low as to outright lie? You're nuts!

Karen,

Who suggested electric stimulation as a treatment for scoliosis? Certainly not Ray or myself... As a "medical professional" you should know that electric stim. is not going to have any effect on a scoliotic curvature. Why the IRB wasted time and money on that "reasonable hypothesis" is beyond me.

Pilates - No need to explain it, I've done it myself for a brief time and I have several colleagues who are certified Pilates instructors in addition to their more primary credentials. What I find ironic is that you trust a Pilates instructor to manage your scoliosis. Are you aware that their training is minimal, revolves around learning and teaching the exercises, consists of VERY basic anatomy and virtually no physiology training, and they are NOT trained adequately if at all to address musculoskeletal dysfunctions (unless they are also a PT or such). Joseph Pilates developed his exercises to first and foremost treat his rickets, among other childhood illnesses he had. Its original name, 'Contrology', as given by Joseph was designed to give him stability which he lacked from the rickets.

In the US, a study must be cleared by an IRB (institutional review board) to make sure it has a reasonable hypothesis and the risks/possible benefits to the proposed treatments are made known to the prospective patients. The risks being harm from delayed treatment or in fact FROM the treatment. Most studies do not require the patient to pay out of pocket but are paid from grants.Would you consider the secondary curves imposed by the spinecor brace to be a harmful?

The risks being harm from delayed treatment or in fact FROM the treatment.Herein lays a major problem with these "studies". In order to validate something to people like you we have to put people at risk by having them stop any other form of treatment. I have always advocated the adjunctive use of these types of approaches. The advantage to not having an exclusionary study is that we don't put people at risk by asking them to stop current methods of treatment.

When someone posts saying scoliosis resulted from a "fall on the bottom" it comes across to us as totally ludicrous when a familial gene has been identified as causing "idiopathic" scoliosis.
Not using x-rays or at least a MRI to assess scoliosis is irresponsible. What if there is a tumor or other defect not visible to the naked eye?Nobody said ALL scoliosis is caused by a coccyx injury... but some most certainly are... Do you have evidence showing the contrary or was that another unsubstantiated claim?. As Ray mentioned, the gene was not shown to "cause" scoliosis, it was simply present in SOME individuals with scoliosis. That leaves a lot yet to be discovered and clarified. You should be ashamed as a medical prof. stretching the truth like that just to try and validate your argument. As for x-rays/MRI... My patients use them under the care of their MD specialists. Who said I didn't?

It's only a waste of time for those too ignorant/stubborn to open themselves up to other possibilities and approaches.

[structural75]

And you're all completely avoiding my questions regarding your understanding of why and how these methods work (including bracing). If you can't give me, and other inquiring members of this forum, a sound anatomical and physiological reason why these approaches are 'supposedly' ineffective, then quit your ignorant bantering. Not one of you have any legitimate reason why these methods couldn't be effective in some cases other than your own fear that you haven't made the best possible decisions yourself if they were.

The least you can do is make some kind of mature attempt to understand some things you obviously aren't informed about. You don't even understand how the braces that your using work!!!??? And the only argument you ever put forth is about the lack of studies. Doesn't anyone have a mind of their own. Here you talk about wasting precious time on "alternative" treatments and in the meantime you're sitting on your hands waiting for the next study to arrive to give you all the answers. (Not to mention the brace is failing some and causing relatively serious complications in others) How long do you wait to consider a more comprehensive, responsive and intelligent approach (bracing + ?)?

If you'd rather sit on your hands and wait, then fine. But you have no right to try and comment on things that you don't understand, especially when those comments are meant to discredit.

[gerbo]

once again, on general principle, simply because without evidence of effectiveness we do not know whether we could be doing more harm than good......

(and if we wanted to consider choosing something "additional" on top of bracing , based on the persuasive say-so or personal experience or divine gifts or aggressive sales tactics of the practioner involved there is so much to choose from that one wouldn't know where to start; raindrop therapy, SI, pyramid therapy, colourtherapy, chiropracters (in lots of different shades) laying on of hands, dancing round a campfire at midnight whilst chanting traditional dutch nursery rhymes; the list of "alternatives" is endless.)

I have never said that within that labyrinth of "alternatives" there might not be something that actually works, and who knows, TAMAR could be one of them, but the only way of knowing would be through proper and plausible documentation of what the starting position is (and there is no substitute for x-rays, clever black cats or not) and what the change is after short or longterm application of the treatment involved. And once again, xrays will provide the hard evidence.

Any significant scoliosis should be under consultant supervision anyway, so xrays and their results should be available (if only via GP) Any unexpected and miraculous improvement would without doubt be picked up and documented. Although collecting that type of information doesn't constitute proper science as such, at least it is a beginning.

[structural75]

Gerbo,

Avoiding the issues raised once again... have you any response to my questions other than "we need studies" and "scientific medicine"? Anyhow, SI has been scientifically validated to alter physical structure and function. Why is it SOOOO hard for you to consider its applicability to scoliosis. It's just a label, not a DISEASE pal!
(and if we wanted to consider choosing something "additional" on top of bracing , based on the persuasive say-so or personal experience or divine gifts or aggressive sales tactics of the practioner involved there is so much to choose from that one wouldn't know where to start; raindrop therapy, SI, pyramid therapy, colourtherapy, chiropracters (in lots of different shades) laying on of hands, dancing round a campfire at midnight whilst chanting traditional dutch nursery rhymes; the list of "alternatives" is endless.)Actually, you would have an idea as to where to start if you had even the slightest understanding of how the brace was potentially effective. Again, studies and "science" aren't what make something, including braces, effective... If you took the time to learn a little something on your own maybe you could make a sound decision.

Now you're lumping SI into the same category as raindrop therapy, chiropractics, laying on of hands, etc??? You're absurd... Keep sitting on your hands while the curve develops... .

[structural75]

Gerbo,

Do you have any sound anatomical reason why SI or TAMARS would not be potentially beneficial?


You rant about causing more harm but as I see it your brace could be causing more harm than good as evident by the new curve. You claim it's of no consequence because it's not structural, yet I'm sure the original curve wasn't structural because if it were bracing wouldn't correct it. You refuse to acknowledge that there is an underlaying cause to the curve and that by forcing it back with a brace without considering its cause you could be doing more harm than good, as evident by the fact that her body has induced another curvature. Again, this wouldn't be acceptable if it resulted from an "alternative" treatment. Just because your Drs don't see anything on an x-ray/MRI doesn't mean that something isn't causing it. Not all causes are visible through imaging scans... connective tissue disorders, asymmetric tension on the dura around the spinal cord, etc... .

So how would the use of manual treatments be any more harmful than using an inanimate device to FORCE the curve back? The human hand could detect and treat abnormalities that a brace cannot. You're tactics here are strictly fear based... you still haven't given me a reason why a manual approach combined with bracing wouldn't, or couldn't, be useful. You're logic is completely unsubstantiated. Ridicule all you like...

And give your 'financial interest' theories a rest... I'm obviously not here promoting my private practice, I'm just trying to create awareness of some things not yet published in a study.

[Karen Ocker]

Structural quote:
What I find ironic is that you trust a Pilates instructor to manage your scoliosis

My surgeon is in full agreement with this used as a fitness adjunct not as "managing" my scoliosis. A Pilates program is offered at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York city as an adjunct not a treatment which they find helpful.

Interestingly, my Pilates instructor recommended I try(pre-op and now if I want SI/Rolfing)--but after hearing you it does not appeal and I am doing well as is.

I am going hiking in the Alps-leaving today so I will be off the forum for awhile. :p

[structural75]

Karen,
That's great. So if your Doctor recommended Pilates, despite you having scoliosis and Pilates has not been 'proven' in any studies to be helpful OR harmful (ode to Gerbo), then why your aversion to SI or TAMARS? I came to this forum with the same compassionate mentality that your well respected Pilates instructor has for you... to share information on methods that might prove useful to varying degrees for individuals. All you've done, with the help of others, is try to discredit its relevance and dismiss it as non-sense without any knowledge of it whatsoever. ?????

You might be interested to know that SI has also been instituted into various hospitals throughout the country. Whether you're aware of this or not doesn't give you the right to dismiss it.

Here's what some real "medical professionals" have to say about it.

Dr. Irene Grant is an Internal Medicine and Infectious Disease Specialist in New York City. She is currently on the teaching faculty at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at New York Medical College.
She had a very bad whiplash injury when she was a child, which created problems in her neck, similar to scoliosis. An Osteopath referred her to Structural Integration. Irene says, "After ten sessions I noticed that my posture improved, my chronic neck pain was significantly relieved, and I had much more energy. Further treatments brought progressive freedom. I experienced major changes. The most amazing thing is that I am now pain free."
Irene has been receiving Structural Integration sessions now weekly, for the past two and a half years. "I am very impressed with Structural Integration and have referred a lot of patients to Structural Integration, including Scoliosis patients. Structural Integration is a wonderful method that can rehabilitate and reverse injuries."
Dr. Mary Kay Brewster is an OB GYN, Medical Doctor in Carmel, California. She tried Structural Integration to alleviate low back pain and sciatica. She states, “I was in pain 90% of the time and now I am pain free. Everyday I recommend Structural Integration to friends, family, colleagues and patients.”
Jim Mongomery, MD, an orthopedic surgeon in Dallas, Texas, often refers his clients to Rolfing. "I send a variety of my clients to a Certified Advanced Rolfer, Nicholas French. People with shoulder and elbow problems, with scar tissue resulting from injury or surgery, chronic hamstring problems, low back and cervical spine problems. People that have had chronic problems that have not been helped by anything else. All those people can be helped with Rolfing."
Certified Advanced Rolfer and MD, Dr. Bret Nye, speaks about alternative/complementary medicine, a cost effective, alternative to surgery and drugs - "Demand for the services of health practitioners like Rolfers is growing as evidenced by the Nov. 98 JAMA estimate of $21.2 billion being spent for alternative medicine in 97. Integrative health care, is a new trend, that combines Western and complementary medicines to offer the best technological advances in health care. Health insurance companies are increasingly becoming interested in therapies like Rolfing not only as potential cost effective alternatives or complements to traditional modalities, but as opportunities to provide coverage for services that will distinguish them in an increasingly competitive market place of providers."
Larry Dossey, M.D., best-selling author: "There is one major reason to take Rolfing® seriously: it works. Not only can it dramatically change people's bodies, it can transform their lives as well. Rolfing is powerful stuff."

SI has been around for half a century... just because you aren't familiar with it doesn't detract from its value here. I'm sure the same would ring true for TAMARS.

Enjoy the Alps!

[tonibunny]

Structural, may I ask a (respectful) question? :)

Ray is seeking to get scientific studies done by a prestigious university in London, to prove the usefulness of his TAMARS treatment in treating scoliosis.

Are you currently doing the same thing to gain scientific proof for the ability of Structural Integration to cure scoliosis and your theory that scoliosis is usually caused by SI joint subluxation, and if not, why not?

As a responsible patient, I would need to have some sort of scientific evidence that the treatment I was going to pay for actually worked. I would expect the inventors/discoverers of alternative treatments to seek to have proper studies done, and if they weren't doing so then that would start alarm bells ringing in my head.

Cheers,

Toni

[structural75]

Toni,

Yes, by all means, ask away.

But first... Hold the phone... !

Are you currently doing the same thing to gain scientific proof for the ability of Structural Integration to cure scoliosis and your theory that scoliosis is usually caused by SI joint subluxation,IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM WAS THAT "SI JOINT SUBLUXATION " THEORY MINE, THAT BELONGED TO EXPATIENT! Please do re-read that thread, as I DO NOT wish to be mistaken for such claims. In fact, I responded along with you on that topic trying to clarify why Expatient's theory was not very sound.

Ok, now that we've clarified that absurdity... Secondly, I have always stated that it is sometimes effective in slowing, stopping or reducing curvatures to varying degrees. I wouldn't use the word cure for ANY scoliosis treatment... a cure is something you administer which eliminates the problem... a cure is not random, inconsistent and unpredictable like all scoliosis treatments are. Nor does a cure create further complications and problems down the road as surgery often does. Those are not cures, they are simply the best solution we have at this point.

Only a portion of my practice is work with children and adults with scoliosis. The rest are folks with a variety of issues etc... . I would love to gain "scientific proof" of such regarding SI and scoliosis, ...as I gain some time to do it properly. I am looking to begin a research project in conjunction with an MD in Physical Medicine here in the States, Dr. Tom Findley (He was a presenter at the recent Boston Conference for non-surgical approaches to spinal deformities - more on him at www.rolfdoc.com). He is also the Director of Research for the Rolf Institute of Structural Integration and a certified advanced SI practitioner. In fact, Dr. Findley introduced Dr. Rolf (founder of the work) in the 70's to Georgetown University where she herself pursued her own research following her stint at Columbia Univ.(she was a research scientist of biochemistry... is that not "scientific"?).

Yes, we as a profession have a Research department of which they have done studies in a number of fields utilizing the work. It is not that they aren't interested in scoliosis (quite the contrary) but with the variety of conditions that this work has successfully treated, there will always be ones that have yet to hit the proving grounds. So the work has been validated "scientifically" in other respects, just not in the one you're interested in... So that doesn't make it an unscientific discipline as some of you are suggesting, nor has it been proven 'ineffective'. Besides, the work was developed by a scientist (biochemist) who spent her life doing research on a component of the human body (the most abundant substance besides water mind you), connective tissue/fascia, that was otherwise largely neglected by other Drs and scientists up to that point. Now, thanks to Dr. Rolf's work and the efforts of her predecessors there is an International Fascial Research Congress at Harvard Medical School this year bringing together the top scientists and researchers throughout the world in a variety of fields to discuss the importance, significance and newly discovered role this substance has in a variety of realms... from cell biology, genetic morphology and disease like cancer to structural/physical deformities and dysfunctions. www.fascia2007.com

I believe that a study involving SI and scoliosis would be performed most effectively and credibly if headed by one of the primary Institutes for the work, or the International organization (IASI). With the incredibly skeptical scrutiny of folks like yourself out there (understandable by the way) it doesn't appear as though any of you would accept a 'small' study done by moi. So keep your eyes open and ears alert to "scientific" evidence someday, it will no doubt exist. For now, you're welcome to be skeptical, but trashing this method with no knowledge of it is simply inappropriate.. I wish that would stop.

Please keep in mind that many of your "scientifically proven" methods are failing people as well. They are not "cures". They are the 'currently accepted and acknowledged best shots'.

I know that's all a bit much but what did you expect... :) Toni, don't take my tone at times personally.... I get irritated trying to constantly clarify myself (as in the SI joint sublux theory that wasn't mine!)... .

Good day
structural

[tonibunny]

Oh my goodness, I am REALLY sorry Structural, that was a genuine mistake! :eek: It's been a while since we were on that thread and I got confused. Please accept my apologies!

It was actually Expatient that I had in mind for getting studies done; it was he who was claiming that scoliosis was almost certainly caused by SI joint subluxation and that it could be completely "cured" (I don't believe scoli can be "cured" totally either). Since this seems like a miracle, I would hope that he'd be seeking to share his discoveries with scientific researchers!

As far as Rolfing goes, I know that it can be of great help in relieving pain, but I would still want to see scientific studies if I were to choose this treatment to actually help improve scoliosis. I'm glad that you'll be seeking to get these studies done when you have the time to do so :)

[Rayknox]

Now that we have all gone round in circles and everyone has bitten everyone else's head off is it not the purpose of this forum to investigate, and examine possible treatments for scoliosis. :)
The knowledge of TAMARS is obviously very limited judging from some of the comments, but don't ignore it. You may be very surprised at what it can do in the right hands. I may not have the evidence being demanded but evidence there certainly is in the shape of the patients who have had their spines re-shaped. TAMARS takes the pressure off discs by freeing up the joints and straightening the spine by untwisting it. So in reality it is removing degrees of scoliosis every time it is used. The results are visible even though I am ridiculed for saying this. Fly in and watch treatments Toni. Then you can make your own mind up.

[gerbo]

The knowledge of TAMARS is obviously very limited judging from some of the comments, but don't ignore it. You may be very surprised at what it can do in the right hands. I may not have the evidence being demanded but evidence there certainly is in the shape of the patients who have had their spines re-shaped.

I am not cynical here, but intrigued. Evidence might not be available currently, but would be so easy to collect as anybody with a significant scoliosis will have their condition medically documented somewhere. Any significant improvement should also be recorded somewhere. How willing would you be to get that information ???(your clients should be able to ask their GPs for copies of relevant letters of consultants???)

Ofcourse Structural could do the same, and set himself apart (which I'd love him to do)from the wide range of alternative practitioners from which he claims to be different (but in the end they all claim the same things, with the same observational "evidence", and all with their own beliefsystems in which they have an unshakable belief)

[edd]

If you'd rather sit on your hands and wait, then fine. But you have no right to try and comment on things that you don't understand, especially when those comments are meant to discredit.

Very well said,.... as a father of a scoliotic daughter my first option will be to try alternative treatment first. I'm sure lots among you will disagree with me that the present conventional treatment of "wait & see, wait & brace & wait & cut" is not a cure (this is just my point of view which I don't impose on anyone), I agree that for others this could be the only option..... Scientific studies and documentations and results takes a long time, while my daughter's curve continue to progress, until i have no other alternative but to put her to surgery, as remedy and not cure.

I might spend lots of money for nothing, so what? but at least I tried doing something, instead of just waiting...... lots of people will spend so much more just to jump off a plane or climb mountains......

Who knows, one of these alternative or combined of these treatments might be the standard accepted treatment in the future? All treatments started and were used in just few people......Majority means just more people are on the other side of the line.

Galileo get laughed at and declared heretic when he proclaimed that the sun revolves around the earth, not the other way around...

edd
father to denisse
T37/ L 35
opt for Schroth Technique

[Rayknox]

Gerbo,
I am continually trying to get information from doctors. I have to request it via the patient but it is so frustrating as I have been waiting for months now for x-rays etc from several scoliosis opatients, one of whom has decided her back is so good she is refusing surgery. And I do not make recommendation as to that effect. I let the patients decide for themselves. If a surgeon recommends surgery I do not interfere.

Edd,
I agree with your point ie this watching and waiting system which gives no option in a lot of cases except major surgery. Obviously if the treatment has no history of helping then you are throwing your money away, and there are lots of those about. I originally posted here because of the results I was getting, and these results came about after treating patients for back pain. To get rid of the back pain you have to reduce the scoliosis.
My experience also is that the earlier I get the patient the easier they are to help. Unfortunately a large number of my patients have had scoliosis under the magical surgical necessary curvature for anything up to 50 years. And they are tough. But they do change.

[gerbo]

I am the last one to sit on my hands as I cannot afford doing so considering the condition of my daughter

If you are in a similar situation, and considering their are so many alternatives of offer, you do not want to waste your time on something what has no evidence of benefit, but focus you effort and time and money on approaches which have the best possible chance of succes? You cannot afford to do that as time isn't on your side!

it is interesting that you are using the schroth therapy. Practitioners of that approach have made great efforts providing scientific evidence of its effectiveness and deserve to be applauded for that. I would definiely consider schroth to be a "credible" alternative.

Interestingly though, when i looked into that treatment, and asked about it on german forums (schroth comes from germany) the very clear message I got was; by all means try schroth, but not without good bracing, which they considered even more important.

For that matter, they were very negative about the quality of bracing in UK and USA, which they felt did not provide enough correction and was bound to fail

Thought you might find that interesting.....

[gerbo]

Ray, it should be so easy, you do not need the xrays, just the letters documenting the condition. Pt should get them from their GP no problem. additionally, you could ask them to tell their story on scoliosis-support.org, so "we" can ask them directly about their experiences.

[Rayknox]

I am seeing some of these in the next few days and I will try and get them to do as you suggest.

[structural75]

Gerbo,
Ofcourse Structural could do the same, and set himself apart (which I'd love him to do)from the wide range of alternative practitioners from which he claims to be different (but in the end they all claim the same things, with the same observational "evidence", and all with their own belief systems in which they have an unshakable belief)I'm sorry you can't see how SI is different from raindrop therapy in its premise, methodology and effect.?? It is not a "claim" to be different, it is a pure fact. Now again, if you took a moment to educate yourself about HOW these approaches work and WHAT they do to the body anatomically and physiogically then maybe you wouldn't have such a hard time considering its potential importance here. Also note that I have repeated suggested using this, or any other sound method, in combination with the bracing or other 'conventional' widely accepted methods. Yet you continue to suggest that I'm asking people to replace their current treatment methods with another. I have never asked a patient to do such a thing.

And my professions "belief system" has been proven in scientific clinical studies to alter the overall human structure, change alignment and improve physiologic function. Now I agree, I would also like to see that scientifically documented via a study as it pertains to scoliosis, but it is not far fetched whatsoever to 'believe' or suggest that its effect on scoliosis couldn't be the same for some. If it has been documented to show the reduction of things such as kyphosis and excessive lordosis or 'flat back syndrome', then where's the stretch you're saying exists regarding scoliosis? It is ludicrous to believe that an inanimate brace can force a curve back without addressing any specific anatomical component of the curve, but the same couldn't be done with highly specific manual intervention.... that logic isn't suffice. I still haven't heard your response on why or how this is any different from bracing. The only reason you continue to lump it in with esoteric and unrelated methods is because you have no idea how it works or what it actually does, and you don't seem to care.

structural

p.s. - If your not sitting on your hands what are you doing?

[gerbo]

In all fairness, if structural would live closeby, I'd visit him, if only to see what he does, well, that's to say, if my daughter would agree as clearly she is getting thoroughly fed up with all these different people she is and has been seeing, staring at her back and ofcourse, this is another reason we cannot try everything as it involves young people at a sensitive age, with their own views and opinions and a busy life as it is.

Seeing obviously doesn't mean believing as the similarly confident chiropracter we saw in the early days had an approach which even our guinee pigs would have seen was never going to do anything, so, that did not last long....

Structural, you should know what i am doing; spinecor, torsorotation most actively whilst still in two minds about restarting some stretching.

gerbo
(trying to keep the temperature down)

[Rayknox]

How advanced is your daughters scoliosis, and what age is she now?
Ray

[structural75]

Gerbo,
I'm all for lowering the temperature on this one....

But keep in mind, chiropractic is very different from what I do... there is no comparison to be made there. I'm glad you were able to see through your chiros theory, whatever that was, before getting too involved. I think it's best to try and understand how something works (its premise and methodology) before attempting it or considering it for its potential use.

I think you have the right idea with torsorotations and stretching etc.... I am merely suggesting a similar but more precise and trained eye and hand. That's all. It is not far from what you're currently doing, if not extremely similar. I think if one were to deem stretching without professional guidance a safe endeavor, it would logically follow that manipulation of that same tissue with a trained practitioner would be just as safe if not more.

I'm sorry you and your daughter are getting frustrated. If I did live close by I'd be happy to see her at no cost out of fairness to some of your valid points on scientific studies. But obviously that's not possible... But I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make false and unsubstantiated accusations about my profession without first learning a thing or two about it from reputable and reliable sources. I'm not here claiming miracles will happen, I always merely suggest trying it as a compliment to whatever method is already being utilized. It's not a substantial investment... you would have a pretty good idea of it's effectiveness and methodology within say the first 1-3 hours of work. That's not going to break anyones bank account and it certainly won't be buying the practitioner a new car. :)

I'm all for healthy skepticism but slander I'm not, especially when folks don't know anything about what they are talking about. That seems fair to me.

Best to you and your daughter Gerbo,

structural

p.s. - Celia, I'm sorry, it has nothing to do with massage... www.theiasi.org

[Celia Vogel]

I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make false and unsubstantiated accusations about my profession without first learning a thing or two about it from reputable and reliable sources. I'm not here claiming miracles will happen....


You did claim that SI cured your scoliosis - you are now scoliosis free??? I also recall the following statement in another thread not too long ago....



The good news: If you're 21 years of age then, despite what others may say, there is a possibility that your curve can be reduced to some degree. You didn't clarify if the scoliosis was dertermined to be congenital or ideopathically derived, that would play a major part in the potential outcome. So the question you asked;


"does anybody know of anything besides surgery that actually has been proven to help reduce the curve? "


Yes. There are several methods that claim to potentially reduce the curvature, but I will speak only of the approach that I have used personally and currently practice as a professional with proven results. Structural Integration (a.k.a. - Rolfing) and certain manually based Osteopathic Physicians have had excellent success at times in this realm. It is not a black and white issue, sometimes it works dramatically well (an Advanced Rolfer, Health Practitioner & colleage of mine in Munich, Germany recently worked with a young adult patient with a 46 degree curvature. At the end of the intitial treatment