Clear institute! Been there. Done that

[Bish]

OK. I am going to try to keep a long story short here. Some of you may remember I was talking a while back about going to the clear institute in Minnessota. Well, I did. I went for one week in march at a cost of $3000 U.S plus airfare and hotel from Vancouver Canada. You may have already read in some other previous posts a little about the treatment methods so I won't fill this post with that stuff. I will just get straight to the good stuff, the results! I have had chronic pain 24hrs a day from curves not typically associated with such. Before going I had curves of 23 and 25 measured by my last radiologist in Canada and confirmed by Dr. Woggon at 23/26 before treatment. After treatment................? 13/18 amazing eh!?Along with that, a number of other pseudo scientific positive results! Great huh? ..........Well not so fast. Pain.... unchanged. I had my concerns to say the least about the whole deal so I went to confirm these measurements again with my radiologist in Canada two weeks later......... 24/26....... huh what do ya know. Strange? I am sure you are sensing my sarcasm by now.
Anyways I could write a book on this so I will hit you with my key thoughts about the treatment. Problems...... 1.had about 20 or more different treatment methods going on in the same day. Made me wonder how one could scientifically determine what treatment was doing what. 2. some of the key treatment methods that have been supposedly reducing curves had recently been significantly changed (like I mean total opposite). 3. some key treatment methods had been recently altered because they were causing the problem they were supposed to be fixing! ( will elaborate later) .
Anyways, you get where I am going with this. I have more goodies I will share at a later date. But let's just say there were even more serious concerns I had than these.
Now, I would love to say I came up with this myself, but in fact my wife looked at photos of my before and after xrays from the clinic in Minnessota and came up with a theory. Here it is. Before treatment, xrays were taken breathing out...... and after treatment xrays were taken breathing in, thus resulting in a positive looking post X-ray. Sound too simple? I presented my theory to the radiologist in Canada and pretty much had our theory verified with about 95% accuracy (based on her best guess). So you can draw your own conclusions. I made a suggestion a number of months ago about wanting to make a contribution to a new fund, to send a forum member to the clear institute. Lots of people pooh poohed that. Haha! And that is O.K, I was only trying to provoke some thought. So here is my little contribution to investigating a non surgical alternative to scoliosis reduction, I tried it myself.
I had hopes about the treatment, but I am a born skeptic and was expecting the worst. Kinda one of those things I had to get out of my head and give it a shot. Can't succeed if you don't take a chance. All the best, Bish.

[Celia Vogel]

Amazing..... although I'm not surprised! I would *never* pay good money to shysters like that! How do these people continue practicing???? Will you demand a refund? :D


*

[Bish]

Well the only way I could conclusively determine he was a shyster was to try it. This guy teaches this treatment method to chiropractors all over north america. I had a chiro in my area who has taken courses through him. Maybe I am a poor example of results but my guess is that he will never get a peer approved study substantiating any claims.

[Celia Vogel]

Forget peer reviewed studies! :eek: The guy is a scam artist! Believing his claims is like still believing in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus as an adult.


*

[Bish]

Well I am sure we could apply the same thoughts to a number of different medical practices we now accept as common treatment. Chiropractic itself is lacking alot of scientific evidence for treating many problems. If you try and pay for physio with no results is that a scam? Massage therapy? Doctors love to perscribe antiinflamatories for people with scoliosis. Anyone ever heard of it working? Scam? Failed operation resulting in adverse side effects. Scam? Not that I am defending this guy because "IF" he is manipulating results then that is a different story.

[Celia Vogel]

It's what Dr. Woggon is claiming to *accomplish* that's at issue here and giving people false hope, maybe stripping them of their dignity while charging them a minor fortune. I don't believe in taking advantage of desperate people and I feel very strongly about this because I was one myself.

I had a chiropractor who claimed in his advertising to be a "scoliosis specialist" tell me that my 19 month old daughter should be wearing weights on her head to correct her scoliosis! This happened the day after I discovered her scoliosis and he was the one that ordered the very first x-ray that shows a curve of 60 degrees. He wanted me to come in for treatments 3 times a week for an indefinite period of time... I guess for her entire childhood or when she died of cor pulmonale - which ever came first??? :mad: He was very strongly against bracing and wanted to start off with gentle massage slowly working up to adjustments. A couple of days later I had an appointment with our paediatrician and he sent her records/x-ray in an envelop marked "urgent" off to Sick Kids. The following week is when we saw Dr. Hedden.

I have in laws with scoliosis who routinely go to chiropractors, massage therapists, physiotherapists for *pain*. Pain is a relative thing and difficult to measure. How do I know if it's working??? They know perfectly well it won't change the degree of curvature or stop it from progressing. They will also never submit to surgery. Spinal fusion is far from perfect but there are many happy people with straighter backs living fairly normal lives. How long they'll be happy???? I don't know. I also don't know about anti inflammatory drugs and how effective they are.

Let me put it this way, you're $3000.00 poorer but maybe a little wiser? :)

*

[structural75]

I don't mean to direct the following at any particular person... I'm just sincerely curious about the following and maybe some of you out there who have had experience could share your thoughts on it.

Why do so many people think that chiropractics is going to change a scoliotic curve? It may, at times, prove useful at providing temporary relief for painful symptoms... but what is the logic that leads one to believe it's going to effect the curvature?

Also, it seems absurd right off the bat to think that one month of ANY treatment (including bracing) is going to make any substantial or long lasting difference. Reversing a curvature, or even slowing or stopping its progression, is a long-term process... certainly longer than a month, regardless of how many different treatments you get in a day (frankly, that's irrelevant... it's the proper application of the proper treatment and it's effectiveness at addressing the problem at hand that matters more than frequency).

For the amount of money you spent on this stuff you could have received about 30 hours (or 9 months) worth of work from one of the practitioners I referred you to. At the very least, it would have certainly made a dramatic difference with your chronic pain and addressed some of the potential causes of the scoliosis rather than... ? I don't get it?

Sorry folks for the rant... I mean no personal offense to any of you of course... I get a little overly-passionate about this kind of thing... and a firm believer in self-empowerment, being a part of the process in more ways than one. I just wish people were educated a bit more about their bodies so that they could make informed decisions about their health. Maybe then we wouldn't be seeing so many people getting taken advantage of. There's a serious problem that occurs when we know nothing and have to rely on 'health care professionals' to guide us in the 'right' direction... unfortunately we live in capitalistic societies that make that process a bit murky at times. We have one vehicle in this lifetime, I would think that it would be important to know something about it for our own benefit... It should be our right to know, not a privilege.

Again, no offense to anyone...
respectfully,
structural

[cherylplinder]

Poor Bish! Sorry they got your money and your time. Just a hug for you from me. THanks for warning the forum. If anyone else asks, we have it straight from the horses mouth that this treatment offers false hope. Hugs again, Cheryl.

[Karen Ocker]

Bish,
You might want to contact one of the 2 links I posted below; you might prevent someone else from spending that money that could cause financial hardship and delay better alternatives.

http://www.chirobase.org

http://www.quackwatch.org (health fraud and quackery)

[Bish]

Well Structural. It is not like I conciously chose to wander the earth in ignorance about my health. I am 35 now and I was unaware I even had this condition until I was 30 when the pain started. I never had desires to become a scoliosis specialist. In fact I had never even heard of it before. Much of my awareness of my condition has been made sifting through what little info the health system has provided, countless "capitalistic" psuedo proffessionals and the internet. What would you suggest I do? Go to university? To find out what? What doctors know about treating scoliosis? What you "KNOW" about scoliosis treatment?
I am not sure if you looked into this clear institute thing but he did say that this would be a lifelong pursuit. IE specific exercise etc. So it's not like I walked in there thinking. Yee Hah!I am going to be cured in a week! I don't believe chiropractic is the answer to this problem, but this appeared to be more physio orientated than chiro, in fact he preached that traditional chiropractic care was not the answer. My main concern is are they the right exercises and or treatments? My thoughts are, likely not.
As for your treatment suggestion it is next on my list. Because I have conclusive proof? No. Because it seems that it may be plausible and because I have to do something to better my life and my condition. As for your suggestion that it would have "most certainly" made a dramatic difference and address the "causes" of my scoliosis, I suppose that is possible but again a bit of a bold statement to say the least considering you know little of my condition. To be quite candid, I think you are the only person on this forum I have bumped into that proffesses such grand claims. Sounds similar to claims proffessed by some of the "pseudo proffessionals". What makes these claims different? Because "YOU" said so? Bish

[Bish]

Thanks Cherylplinder. You are a sweetheart. Bish

[structural75]

Bish,

Looks like my comments were taken the wrong way. What I meant by being educated is simply this... maybe incorporating some degree of human anatomy and physiology into our grade school educational system (besides the inadequate 'health' classes that currently exist) would be helpful. No this doesn't help your current situation.. but it just gets frustrating to hear person after person getting taken advantage of because they follow some inapplicable or misguided premise. I wasn't blaming YOU! I blame those practitioners taking advantage of YOU! We know more about how to manage our money, balance our checkbooks, maintain our cars, repair our homes, etc than we do about basic workings and maintenance of our own bodies. It was a more broad moment of thought for me... not necessarily relating to your situation... sorry I mentioned it... .

I wasn't suggesting you weren't intelligent or that you go attend a university to study the matter... . There are many just like yourself who do their best to choose options that are available. My comment was just pointing to the question of, how could we make more informed decisions?... maybe by first understanding our bodies a little more and understanding the purpose, benefits and limitations of prospective treatment options... the latter being essential here. Maybe if we understood the premise behind these 'methods' and we understood some basic things about what is happening with a scoliosis then quite possibly we could avoid these 'traps'.

And yes, it was a bold statement that I made.. probably more than was necessary... but I am clearly not here to 'diagnose' and speculate the specifics of your condition.. that's obviously inappropriate. So you know what, I have know idea if it will do a thing at all for you... but if you can find a more sensible or relevant approach than the one I initially suggested to you then by all means go for it.. best of luck to you...

To be quite candid, I think you are the only person on this forum I have bumped into that proffesses such grand claims. Sounds similar to claims proffessed by some of the "pseudo proffessionals".Funy, because I've noticed several members of this forum who claim the montreal Drs to be "miracle workers".. this sounds a bit "grand" and potentially misleading to me.. don't you think? Wouldn't want to get someone's hopes up expecting a miracle... . So maybe you can get the notion now that I didn't mean to be making "grand claims"... let's keep it in the context it was meant for.

And hey, sorry to come off sounding the way you described.. but it gets quite frustrating listening to people try the same things over and over and over only to continue getting the same results... . I do in fact have good intentions here, that aren't financially motivated. Maybe I'm just trying to encourage people to try something different. Call me what you like... but you don't know much about me either.
structural

[Sherie]

Hi Dave

I'm glad you posted. I see we are in agreement about the xrays. I was very interested when you mentioned the breathing in and out and questioned my daughter about that. She said she remembered that too and also being put in rather peculiar positions for xray. She told me they had her slumping over for one of them (maybe the neck?). Of course, I wasn't in the room to see what they were doing. I think you are right on the money about the number of treatments, how can any of them be validated?

I don't think Dave posted here to have people throw it back in his face, I think he has honest intentions of sharing his personal experience. I also took my daughter to the Clear Insitute and I wouldn't call myself a gullible person, I worked as a Med. Tech for 10 years and when I quit working to stay home with my kids, I was the assistant laboratory supervisor of my hospital. So I would have to say I am probably more informed about medicine than the average person and I certainly don't believe in the Tooth Fairy. But, I am/was a desperate parent and I do agree that there are people out there who will prey on our fears, but when the only thing left is a surgery that will change my child's life forever, be it good or bad, who has the right to question a parent's intentions or for that matter, to question what anyone will do with their own bodies and health? I can only try and do the best for my daughter like every other parent on this forum. Even though they aren't directed specifically at me, some of the comments on here are very hurtful, let's please try to stick to a constructive dialogue.

[Bish]

Thankyou Sherie!
So nice again to have someone speak in my defense! Thankyou! I try to let it bounce off. It seems very strange to me on this forum at times. Some people expressing positive results with a treatment are instantly under attack. Some people expressing negative results get the same treatment. Can't win around here! If it wasnt for the good ones like you Sherie ( and others) it would make you wonder why you bother! All the best to you and your daughter, Bish

[gerbo]

I did not think that structurals posting was in any way negative or unreasonable. Strictly speaking one cannot judge any treatment on the basis of one week trying, specially as the protocol clearly asks for lifelong continuation of the exercises. Same goes for schroth therapy (which has some (marginal)credibility, and ofcourse bracing. If after an initial excellent correction from a brace, the brace would be taken of, any correction achieved would disappear.

I agree though with Bish that the multitude of treatment approaches and apparant swaps and changes is very suspect, and would not fill me with confidence and as i have said before; if there is no evidence of benefit, there is no evidence of harmlessness neither.

Where structural kind of critisizes people for trying chiropracters, he forgets that he has got an awful lot of knowledge already and most parents faced with the shock of seeing their child with an apparantly nontreatable condition will just jump at anything that offers hope

I am not surprised that parents believe claims being made (after all, the practitioners are able to spin an extensive web of pseudoscientific theory, which can sound so plausible) it surprises me more that the actual practitioners believe their own theories, and from my experience, they are genuinely convinced of the rightnessness of their own theories and therefor of the benefits of the treatment based on that theory. It seems a bit like religion (hope i am not wading in forbidden territory); if you believe in god, you believe in the healing power of prayer, if you believe in dislocated, subluxated out of place joints, you believe you can heal by putting everything back into place, if you believe in ying and yang....etc, etc. The only protection againstplausible psuedoscience ruling our life is going to be "hard scientific evidence" or at least the willingness to engage into a scientific, evidence based approach to treatment.

Wishing everybody a very happy day ahead.

gerbo

[zuma]

As ever gerbo you are the voice of reason. I enjoy reading your posts. I like you didn't think structural was actualy talking about anyone in paticular and was making a general statement about the lack of education about scoliosis and the skeletal system in his country. You are lucky though because in the UK the education system is worse. Having gone through numerous Drs over the years it took until i was 36 to learn that i suffered from Kyphosis. Now you could argue that its my own fault for not looking too deeply into my condition and if you did i couldn't argue with you because it is. But when you go to so called experts and they tell you there is nothing they can do for you, you just get on living your life. When i was diagnosed there was no altenative treatments, surgery was to my knowledge the only answer and i was told i was not a candidate.

I think (going completly of topic) that screening programmes and education programmes are the answer. If a nurse had picked up my condition in school and there had been a process in place to refer me to a scoliosis/kyphosis specialist and not just a general orthopedic surgeon things may be different and i wouldn't be dragging this enormous lump on my back around. I have now come to terms with how i look but it has been a slow process. Coming to sites like this and finding i'm not the only one in the world who looks like me helped. I thought i was the only one and reading other peoples experiences has been very theraputic.

peace

z

[gerbo]

:) :) :)

[MATJESNIC]

Zuma,

Not sure I misunderstoond you. Do you know that Gerbo is in the UK?

I know for a fact that some chiros claim they can decrease curves. That is why some people think they can.

I love our chiros. They helped my husband with his back when traditional doctors couldn't. We go to them when something is out of place or causing us some pain. They believe we should go there weekly, and we don't.

As far as the doctors in Montreal being "Miracle Workers" let me make something clear about them. Never, in all our conversations with them have they ever told me that their brace would hold Nicole's curve or make it better. It's funny because even though they are in a different country than our ortho in the U.S, they all said the same thing to us. "We don't have a crystal ball. We have no idea if your curves will hold."

Of course, they believe in their brace. They believe that if Nicole has the type and size of curves that are cooperative, their brace will do the job. But as we all know, the million dollar question is whether or not she has those types of curves. The good news is that one day we will know more about scoliosis so that those questions will be answered well before we are at this stage.

But for those families who are getting excellent results with Spinecor and seeing their little children live comfortable lives in a comfortable brace, it is difficult to not "sing their praises." I thank God for our Doctors in Montreal because my daughter is not suffering by wearing their brace. The first thing I said to them on the phone was "Thank you so much for inventing this brace."

Sorry for the ramble.

[Celia Vogel]

I am not surprised that parents believe claims being made (after all, the practitioners are able to spin an extensive web of pseudoscientific theory, which can sound so plausible) it surprises me more that the actual practitioners believe their own theories, and from my experience, they are genuinely convinced of the rightnessness of their own theories and therefor of the benefits of the treatment based on that theory. It seems a bit like religion (hope i am not wading in forbidden territory); if you believe in god, you believe in the healing power of prayer, if you believe in dislocated, subluxated out of place joints, you believe you can heal by putting everything back into place, if you believe in ying and yang....etc, etc. The only protection againstplausible psuedoscience ruling our life is going to be "hard scientific evidence" or at least the willingness to engage into a scientific, evidence based approach to treatment.


OMG!!!!! Gerbo your insight is so amazing :D I wanted to add to this that alternative practitioners have to believe in their unproven theories otherwise they would go out of business.

Sherie,
I know exactly where you're coming from and I hope I didn't hurt anyone and especially you with my flippant comment about believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus as an adult. I know when a parent is desperate, they are very very vulnerable. In my own daughter's case it was a matter of life and death and making the "right" decision. Infantile scoli parents become a different breed altogether and are hardened veterans compared to adolescent scoli parents. I have been dealing with scoliosis for close to 6 years and we have another 9 years before Deirdre finishes growing. It makes me really really upset when I read about the Dr. Woggons of the world.

[gerbo]

thanks celia for kind comments

and i agree, no promises are made, the only thing we can go on is the statistics and our trust in the practitioners we are dealing with (and ofcourse the improvements which we cannot help seeing unfolding in front of our eyes)

The big, hugely big thing for me is though is the maintenance of the quality of life (though lisanna has sores currently on her legs from those straps, but will she wear cycling shorts?/, forget it) and everytime i can give her a hug without feeling that plastic harnas in between us, i bless the day we gambled on the spinecor.

re practitioners having to believe in what they are doing for business (and reputation) reasons, this is also so true for "proper" scientists, and the damage they can fo is terrible. One of the worst UK examples (you might have come across this over there) was dr andrew wakeman, a previously reputable doctor, who in the late 90's developped the theory (not based on proper evidence) that MMR vaccination caused autism. His life, career, reputation than rested for a long time on this theory, which he kept defending for years on end, enticing to many parents not to have their children properly vaccinated, with all the obvious resulting harmful effects./

Talking about having to believe your own theories for career reasons; clearly certain politicians in the USA and UK had to believe that there were WMD in Iraq (and more) to warrant their existence. see what damage that has done (is doing.....)

[zuma]

Hi all

the point i was trying to make (sorry i'm dyslexic and i find it difficult to put into words my thoughts) is that i thought structural was talking generally and specifically about anyone. I son't really understand or grasp the rational behind chiro's as they don't figure highly in treatment in this country or the region i live in for scoliosis or kyphosis. Its either surgery, bracing, wait and watch or physio.

I enjoy coming to this site and reading about others experiences it helps me come to terms with my own situation. I understand people want the best for there children and exposing any quack is very important. But to steel from another anology one mans quack is another mans saviour. What works for one may not work for another. I think it important we debate all forms of treatment equally. Spinecor seems to be an amazing concept that has helped many many children which is fantastic and seems to have revolutionised bracing. But there are many other forms of treatment out there and we need to know about them all

One difference between the states and the UK seems to be cost of treatment we have the NHS which is free at point of contact and private for those who choose it or can afford it. We only have a few alternative therapies in this country so we don't seem to have a bigger problem as you do in the states with quacks. Having said that one quack is one too many. I just think that all views have the right to be aired and then its up to us to judge what is right and wrong. Having said all that if something has clearly been proved to be wrong or is the subject of fraud then it should be stamped on by the authorities

z

[zuma]

Hi all

the point i was trying to make (sorry i'm dyslexic and i find it difficult to put into words my thoughts) is that i thought structural was talking generally and not specifically about anyone. I son't really understand or grasp the rational behind chiro's as they don't figure highly in treatment in this country or the region i live in for scoliosis or kyphosis. Its either surgery, bracing, wait and watch or physio.

I enjoy coming to this site and reading about others experiences it helps me come to terms with my own situation. I understand people want the best for there children and exposing any quack is very important. But to steel from another anology one mans quack is another mans saviour. What works for one may not work for another. I think it important we debate all forms of treatment equally. Spinecor seems to be an amazing concept that has helped many many children which is fantastic and seems to have revolutionised bracing. But there are many other forms of treatment out there and we need to know about them all

One difference between the states and the UK seems to be cost of treatment we have the NHS which is free at point of contact and private for those who choose it or can afford it. We only have a few alternative therapies in this country so we don't seem to have a bigger problem as you do in the states with quacks. Having said that one quack is one too many. I just think that all views have the right to be aired and then its up to us to judge what is right and wrong. Having said all that if something has clearly been proved to be wrong or is the subject of fraud then it should be stamped on by the authorities

z

[structural75]

Sherie,

I don't think Dave posted here to have people throw it back in his face, Neither do I... I don't believe I was throwing anything back in his face nor was I calling him, or you, gullible. It simply raised a thought that I regrettfully shared regarding public awareness and education on the most basic of levels. It was actually in SUPPORT of you folks, not an insult. I SUPPORT ALL OF YOUR EFFORTS... .


Please folks, I did not intend anything I said to be an insult or to start an argument here. As I said in my first post, my comment wasn't directed at anyone... and I meant that. So please don't get on my case as usual accusing me of ... .

Nor do I believe that any of you are to blame for decisions you've made.. that wasn't what I was implying.

[zuma]

oops it appears i have posted the above post twice sorry

[Celia Vogel]

Maybe the fact I was dealing with a life threatening condition for my 19 month old daughter molded me into the *no nonsense* kind of person I am. We didn't have time to tinker with unproven theories or pie in the sky claims from chiropractors or alternative practitioners. When I asked the chiropractor why he wanted to put weights on my baby's head he looked at me as though I had asked the most ridiculous question in the world and went off on some confusing vague explanation why it would help. He also didn't want to put her in any kind of brace and wanted her to wear shoulder weights as well!!!!! His answer didn't make any sense to me and THANK GOD for the internet because that evening I did a search on how weights on the head could possibly correct scoliosis and couldn't find anything in a reputable medical journal. It defies logic how head weights/shoulder weights can help, if anything it will make the scoliosis worse by applying further asymmetric loading forces on the spine. This chiropractor called me numerous times at the house and even called me the same day my daughter went into her first cast.


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[gerbo]

now relax structural, I really think you are trying ever so well to be considerate and thoughtful. (sounds more patronising than was meaned). Keep going! :D

[gerbo]

celia, our initial chiropracter was like that; i.e. writing to me after her four "treatments", asking how lisanna was doing, and so convinced that she was going to cure lisanna's scoliosis. The worst wasn't potential physical harm (She hardly did anything physical) or the finance (she only proposed 4 sessions) but the false hope she created when she told us and our daughter that "I'll straighten you out". Makes me cringe if i think about it. We still call her "the witch" when we pass her house, (crystals under the bed and ghostcatchers in the window).

[structural75]

Gerbo,

I agree with what you're saying. I think it's imperative the practitioners believe in their premise in order to practice their work. What I think is troublesome is when they leave school and never again question the premise. Personally speaking, I always question the premise upon which my work is based and refer out when necessary. With each person who enters someones practice we must question whether our particular discipline is appropriate for their condition. I'm not putting chiropractics down, but I do feel it is often misleading in a variety of ways and scoliosis is a condition that requires more than just vertebral adjustments... it is not necessarily the result of nerve impingment or displacement of bones.. those are probably going to be inevetable occurrences with the condition at times and chiro could possibly help manage such. I don't propose that what I do is the be all, end all answer... but it is a sound and logical approach when you consider the details.

I also see your point about harm vs. no harm theory... but keep in mind that if you're "stretching" your daughters ligaments yourself (highly unlikely) then it would be safe to say that a trained professional working with the same idea you have is going to be a safer approach than doing it yourself. And stretching ligaments is not the best thing to be doing on your own... once you stretch them you have to live with it... they don't 'bounce back' as muscles will. And if you compromise the support around the joints (ligament laxity) you will create a demand on the muscular system to increase its tonus to then provide the support that the ligaments are no longer able to. It's more complicated than you sometimes suggest and I don't really see the "harm" in relying on a professional to do the work for you.

Again, no harm meant here... I'm just trying to say that not all "alternative" (which aree often "traditional" actually... i.e.-precursed the advent of pharmaceutical and surgical medicine) is going to cause harm... I'm concerned and skeptical however just as you are.
Just my two cents...
structural

[Celia Vogel]

...the false hope she created when she told us and our daughter that "I'll straighten you out". Makes me cringe if i think about it.

When I asked the chiropractor how many cases he had corrected he replied he was having "encouraging" results and went on to show me two side by side x-rays of an adult patient he had helped.... for the life of me, I couldn't see the difference between the two x-rays. I knew then and there, I was wasting my time.


*

[structural75]

Now for my infamous disclaimer (let's see if it works this time)... The following was a quote from Celia that I actually agree with and wanted to extract from her post to comment on. Let it be known that I have nothing against what Celia said, nor do believe in any way shape or form that hanging weights from ones body is an intelligent or effective approach.

It defies logic how headweights/shoulder weights can help, if anything it will make the scoliosis worse by applying further asymmetric loading forces on the spine.So let's forget about hanging weights from the body for a moment... ..."applying further asymmetric loading forces on the spine." Isn't this what gravity is doing to a scoliotic curve? It also reminded me of the spinecor (which I softly support) in that the strapping system is doing just that, applying asymmetric force upon the spine between the pelvis and the top of the rib cage. Although it is positioned and such to correct the curve, what impact is this compression having on the formation and development of the intervertebral discs? Are they in jeopardy of bulging, collapse, extrusion, intrusion, herniation or degeneration due to lack of adequate hydration and such? I'm certainly not suggesting the brace doesn't help slow, hold or decrease the curve, but what are the long-term ramifications of constant excessive compression? Just my curiosity at play here... .

I wanted to add to this that alternative practitioners have to believe in their unproven theories otherwise they would go out of business.
In all fairness (instead of trying to condemn everyone but MDs), ANY type of practitioner, MDs included, must believe in what they do to make a living, whether it's accurate or not. There are many surgeons who feel that the knife is the only answer for many conditions, whether it's necessary or not.... there is a certain amount of financial motivation behind that reasoning I'm sure (one surgery amounts to a lot of money).

I am a 'traditional' practitioner (some "alternative" practices have been around long before bracing, surgery or pharmaceuticals, which makes them more traditional than modern day 'conventional' medicine) and the work I do has not been scientifically studied as it pertains to scoliosis, or many other conditions for that matter. It doesn't mean that it isn't applicable to the condition. In fact most conditions I work with (back pain/herniations/post-surgical complications/ etc, whiplash, frozen shoulder, etc) haven't been formally 'approved' through a study. But I do get consistently good long-term results (without dragging people along for years of ineffective treatment), as do others in my profession, often when conventional methods fail. There are however studies performed over the last 30 years to validate my professions effect on human structure and function. So it is anything but unproven... sometimes you have to do the math yourself to see its potential benefit in unique situations despite the lack of 'scientific' evidence (clinical evidence is just as convincing and valid, if not moreso).

I would like this forum to be a place, among other things, for people to be able to explore, research and possibly utilize non-surgical treatment/management methods for scoliosis. It's unfair to discourage people from trying or putting down "alternative" therapies as a whole just because of the Dr. Copes/Dr. Wogoons/ETC. of the world. I don't support what they do but I also see us spending more time discrediting things than we do asking questions and learning about other approaches. I'm sure if we highlighted all of the unethical and disillusioned surgeons out there we wouldn't think too highly of MDs either. So try and remember that there are in fact people practicing "alternative" approaches who care deeply for their patients, are honest, trustworthy and are not represented by these select individuals or professions. The internet has its limitations too as far as obtaining all of the information.

Seriously, if folks are going to use things like yoga and pilates, then surely they might possibly derive benefit from disciplines that are far more specific, have more qualified and educated practitioners and are meant to address musculoskeletal dysfunctions.

[PNUTTRO]

buyer beware.

Whether you live in the US, UK, CA or AU. . .it still holds true. I think all points of this discussion have been well stated.

In a capitalistic society, we have many choices about our health treatments and medicine. I am not one to seek alternative therapies, but I think that they have their benefits. Also, I want to point out that even MDs and hospitals give a disclaimer to all patients in the form of "Patients rights and responsibilities". If you read these carefully, you will see that it is a patient's responsibility and not a right to ask questions.

This is why every doctor will ask you if you have questions. (You'd better ask quickly.) And before surgery you are asked to state in your own words what procedure you will be having and you sign a document saying that you had the opportunity to ask questions and had all of your questions answered.

I think this is an important point because nobody, even doctors, don't have to tell you anything about your treatment unless you ask.

p

[jaymes10]

Hi everyone: you might remember me I have the 3 daughters all diagnosed with varying degrees of scoliosis this past fall (from Wisconsin) My 5yr old has the worse curve 39thoracic 33lumbar. Well, we just returned from Shriner's in Erie only to be told that after 5mo of wearing the spinecor brace there has been no improvement in her curves. They have stayed the same. What was interesting to us as we also have had our daughter doing the Clear Institute therapy 3x/week for the last 4months and were led to believe that her x-rays by the chiro showed her at 26/13...we were feeling like we had just had a new baby. We were not mentally prepared to hear Dr. Sanders say no changes. What was up??? He looked at the chiro's films and agreed the markings were correct and that she is probably getting temporary relief of the vertebre not being as compressed but it rebounds back. She had her treatment Thurs and saw Dr. Sanders Mon. so that means in less that 72hrs all that work our daughter goes through is for nothing!! We confronted our chiro yesterday and he is going to get in touch with Dr. Woggon and find out "whats up" afterall he just spent all this money on new equipment and training sessions with Dr. Woggon and for what...to have parents like us come in and demand answers!!!! Dr. Sanders from Erie told us to take our daughter out of her brace and leave her be. He said her curve could just stay like it is always or till at least shes 10-12 then her growth spurt will happen and if the curve is going to progress then it will happen regardless of if she is braced or not. He apparently will be participating in a national study of kids being braced and not being braced and the progression of the curves. I guess he thinks we will be first to not be braced. He offered nothing else. In Jan. he offered seriel casting or an over correcting night brace now nothing but wait and see. So, we are out $$$$ in therapy and a wasted trip to Erie that although no charges from them it still costs $$$$$$$$ to get 3 children there to be seen. Dawn

[Sherie]

Hi Dawn

I'm so sorry that things aren't working out. I know you were hopeful about this. I'm glad to hear your chiro is going to speak to Dr. Woggon, although I'm sure he's going to have an answer ready for him. It's very frustrating when you are so sure that it's working only to be let down again and again. Are you going to seek any other opinions? I really don't know much about this, but I wonder if your daughter is a candidate for stapling? I hope you find some answers.

Take care

[Celia Vogel]

Dr. Sanders from Erie told us to take our daughter out of her brace and leave her be. He said her curve could just stay like it is always or till at least shes 10-12 then her growth spurt will happen and if the curve is going to progress then it will happen regardless of if she is braced or not. He apparently will be participating in a national study of kids being braced and not being braced and the progression of the curves. I guess he thinks we will be first to not be braced. He offered nothing else. In Jan. he offered seriel casting or an over correcting night brace now nothing but wait and see.


OMG I can't believe dr. Sanders is participating in that ridiculous study!!!!! I also can't believe he told you to take your daughters out of the brace, like what is up with that?????! :eek: I'm so sorry you wasted your time seeing him, I know its a big endeavor to make such a trip! As a last resort, I would see Drs Rivard and Coillard. If it were me I wouldn't take my daughters out of the brace.


*

[tonibunny]

I'm amazed that a doctor could advise removing a young child from a brace too! Children grow fast too - their curves are just as likely to progress as an adolescent's! Just because scoliosis usually affects teens who go through adolescent growth spurts doesn't mean that a prepubescent child's curve won't progress.

I wore braces and bodycasts as a child after being diagnosed at the age of 6 months with infantile idiopathic scoliosis, and despite the braces and casts holding my curves pretty well, my scoliosis still progressed slowly until I finally had surgery at the age of ten. My curves were about 62/40 degrees at 6 months old, and 76/50 degrees aged 10. Without strict use of the braces and casts, they would have been a whole lot worse!

Please, do NOT stop bracing your daughter! Celia's daughter is getting on amazingly well with the Spinecor - do listen to what she advises, she really knows her stuff.

[Celia Vogel]

Toni,

That's so sweet of you to say that about me?! I'm just muddling through this and everything I know about scoliosis I learned from support groups and believe me, after what I've been through I need the most support of all! :D


*

[tonibunny]

Well, you're an inspiration to all the other parents out there.....you did all the research you could, made intelligent choices to get the best possible treatment for your daughter, and look at the result! 60 degrees to practically nothing is truly amazing. I know such great results won't always be possible because some kiddies' curves will be stiffer and more complex, but it's still an amazing achievement that should give hope to a lot of people :-)

[Celia Vogel]

If I didn't believe in bracing, my daughter would already be a veptr candidate by now...so I definitely believe in it! Bracing doesn't work if the curve is past the point of no return which is what most doctors wait for anyway...so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.


*

[BlueCrystalMan]

Interesting thread. So what is the outcome of all of this? Hate to fan the flames, but my son has been in SpineCor for two years now... and has gone from 24/19 at initial bracing to 55/38 today... he is set to start Clear on Monday. Now I'm on the fence. Dammit.

[txmarinemom]

Read the press release (http://ww1.prweb.com/releases/scoliosis-treatment/scoliosis-surgery/prweb540047.htm?referrer=swamii.com) dated July 2007 - from two chiros allegedly trained at the CLEAR Institute.

Most interesting are the statements about surgery:

"Surgery includes implanting a Harrington rod for the correction of the disease. However, after many complications, including rusting and corrosion, bending, or breaking completely, proved that this method is ineffective. Some sufferers undergo surgery again to remove the rod. Every year thousands of post-surgery patients are legally defined as permanently disabled for the rest of their lives, and follow up x-rays in some cases reveal that their scoliosis returned to pre-operative levels. "

At best, the description of current surgical techniques is outdated (by, oh, about 15 years or so ...).

At worst, it's a deliberate, manipulative falsehood designed to round up patients for quakery (ala "Copes").

Personally, either one (whether they're uninformed or liars) would make me run the other way. It's just infuriating to see "so-called professionals" prey on parents and patients (and ultimately, your insurance company) with snake oil.

I know as parents we are willing to try almost anything to help our kids, but I'd have a really difficult time buying into their claims (especially with the first hand stories here).

Regards,
Pam

[Karen Ocker]

Interesting thread. So what is the outcome of all of this? Hate to fan the flames, but my son has been in SpineCor for two years now... and has gone from 24/19 at initial bracing to 55/38 today... he is set to start Clear on Monday. Now I'm on the fence. Dammit.

We all understand your desperation to avoid surgery. My mom delayed mine after the surgeon said I should have surgery very soon. During that 6 month delay my curves increased so much that less correction was obtained and, at that time, I was stlll left with significant deformity. (Read my signature)

Some curves will progress despite the most valiant attempts at bracing and even after bracing was successful.

A curve of 55 deg is approaching the degree recommended for surgical intervention and is likely to progress the rest of his life. Just keep in mind that if your son's curves progress despite Clear Institute ministrations he will face eventual surgery with higher curves and greater deformity. As a medical professional myself I personally would not do the Clear Institute thing for my child because it does not follow evidence based science. No one on this forum, using that modality, has had any permanent improvement in their curves. (Short -term possibly).

[Sherie]

Bluecrystalman

I was one of those desperate parents. I put my daughter through Clear Institute with Dr. Woggon (founder) and bought several thousands of dollars worth of equipment for home use. It was a waste of money and time. I would not go that route again if we had to do it over again. There is some initial improvement, but like Karen said, no long term correction. In fact, she did increase during the 3 month period when she was doing the home routine. I don't necessarily attribute that to the therapy, she'd been increasing anyways for the past year.

The routine is pretty long and intense. She was to do it 2 times/day and it took approx. 1.5 hours. She was getting up at 5:30 in the morning to get it all done in time for school. She was pretty burned out by the 3 month mark and Dr. Woggon "predicted" it would take 4 years to straighten her spine, this is all hypothetical since I haven't heard or seen any evidence that anyone has actually achieved permanent correction.

I'm sorry, but I think you're wasting your money. I think Schroth has a longer history and appears to have some credibility though it sounds like the intent is to hold the curve and that's only as long as the exercises are done. It will depend on the motivation of your son.

As you can see in my sig, my daughter recently had surgery and I'm happy to report she's doing great. Surgery has not turned out to be as bad as I imagined, in fact, we're very happy with the results. She looks great and feels good. Her chest and hips are very symmetrical, no more hip, knee and shoulder pains. If your son eventually ends up with surgery, it will be ok. Just be sure to find a very good, experienced surgeon. Please let me know if i can answer any questions regarding clear institute.

Good luck

[proudmom2_2]

I put my daughter through Clear Institute as well with no success. It seemed like the 'right' thing to do at the time. To me you don't have very many alternative options. We went into it thinking...if it doesn't work then at least I will never have to wonder if it would've...maybe some see that as crazy, but when your child has scoliosis you're pretty desperate to try anything that might work and avoid surgery.

Structural--I'm a little curious what your opinion is on the Scoliosis Rehab in Wisconsin and the Cheneau brace?

--Tina

[rtremb]

BlueCrystalMan:

Our daughter tried the Pettibon (Clear) treatments for about three months last Fall. Her curves did not progress while she was doing it however we stopped because the chiropractor wanted her to wear a Boston brace which is progressively tightened while doing whole body vibration combined with neck traction in a traction chair...then the brace is kept on for several hours in the tightened position until bedtime. This seemed too wierd for us and potentially dangerous. She was doing over the door neck traction but got a tortocollis which may or may not have been caused by the traction so we stopped that too. She was doing wobble chair exercises too.

At this time we are doing Structural Integration (Rolfing) which we consider much safer and we are seeing some real results after about six treatments spaced two weeks apart. She also does lots of yoga exercises for scoliosis.

Ruth

[WNCmom]

Blue Crystal Man--

I remember seeing your posts on the SpineCor thread several months ago. Could you remind me, how old is your son?

Mary Ellen

[BlueCrystalMan]

Hi Mary Ellen... Good to see you.

Nick is now 14. He went into the SpineCor brace at 12. He progressed to 53T, 38L as of the October SpineCor checkup.

I researched Clear FOR MONTHS because it IS a ton of money... but... the other option was surgery... I didn't have the money to throw at the problem, but I did not want to go the surgery path without saying I tried everything I could.

Nick has been at Clear for two weeks... tomorrow is the final day (thankfully... two hour commute each way)... Anyway, the results have been phenomenal. He is being treated by Dr. Stitzel, who has been outstanding. His energy and dedication to the treatment is VERY reassuring.

Now... for the treatment... every step along the way, through all three treatments every day, the doc explains very clearly and concisely what is going on and what he expects in terms of results. The goal of the first week is to work on getting the curve back into Nick's neck... and that he has done... He has explained that without the curve, the spine can't derotate... once the curve in the neck returns, the rest will fall in place.

At the beginning of the treatments, Nick had a 135% loss in the curvature of his neck... He walked like Shaggy from Scooby Doo. As of last Friday, after one week of treatment, he had only a 74% loss. I think that loss is 30% now after almost two weeks because he stands straight up.

Yes, the doc works with the weights, and he does also work with the muscles and spine itself... tons of work involved, including the dreaded chair.

Now... I heard all of the commotion about the 'long-term results'... and for that I have two things to say... First, this is a new program... it's only been around since 2005... so there won't be results. The program is still evolving, and Clear will tell you that... And second, when researching for yourselves, consider the ages of the patients. Someone over 50 is going to be much more difficult to treat than someone under 15... please keep that in mind. There are a lot of people that are down on the program, but when you read the posts, they are clearly older.

Prior to pulling the trigger, I spoke to a woman who's 19 year old daughter had the exact same type curves and at the same degree as my son... Her daughter was having breathing issues prior to entering Clear... and by the end of it, no more breathing issues... AND her curves remain at bay.

So while there are no long term results... but... with the exercise regimen, NONE of Dr. Stitzel's patients regressed as long as they stuck with the exercises and the traction chair... that is proven fact. Yes, it's only been a few years, but a few years of no regression by hundreds of patients... doesn't that say something about the long term results?

Right now, I'm a believer. In four months when my son does his follow-up visit, I may feel different, but after the past two weeks and talking to tons of people who had the treatment over the past few years, I don't think my position will change.

[txmarinemom]

CLEAR works for Nick (and some other kids) ...

I HOPE Schroth (despite the blatant plugs by people who will benefit from desperate parents) works for some ...

I HOPE they define the subset Spinecor can help (despite Weiss and Schroth articles that run down Spinecor) ...

Boston braces still hold some curves.

No action holds some curves.

Just MHO, but VBS makes the most sense to me - and growing rods. The only real answer is to push further gene ID, and prevent the choice of treatment, pain, and failed infantile, juvenile, and adolescent methods in which we all placed our faith ... only to meet surgery eventually.

I saw a post earlier about a mother who felt negligent she didn't notice her daughter's curve: Please, please, please don't think you could have when I suspect A) she didn't know; or B) she knew and deliberately hid it.

I was 10 at dx - with a 35° t-curve. I'd have done all in my power to hide it if my friend hadn't blabbed.

In the long run, so little or so much can make a difference - but all treatments are ineffective for some, no treatments are fine for some, and some treatments are better for some.

As a parent, all you can do is the best you can ... I'd definitely pull not only PubMed, but common articles about treatments.

BlueMan, does CLEAR actually tout the words of the chiros I posted? If so, do you realize how outdated their statements are? Is there a venue to report if "student's" views vary from the Institute?

Surely they'd not describe current technology as "Harrington".

Best to all ...
Pam

[Bish]

Blue man

"I researched Clear FOR MONTHS because it IS a ton of money... but... the other option was surgery... I didn't have the money to throw at the problem, but I did not want to go the surgery path without saying I tried everything I could."

Blue man, If money is an issue, I would strongly suggest that on the last day of treatment you go straight from the XRay at the clear and have your cobb angle verified by an outside source THE SAME DAY. It will cost you $100 and then you can decide if you should spend $3000 on your own traction chair.If the numbers they gave you are out to lunch,I am sure you would reconsider the validity of the whole thing.If it is bogus, why put your Son through months/ years of bogus therapy?

At the beginning of the treatments, Nick had a 135% loss in the curvature of his neck... He walked like Shaggy from Scooby Doo. As of last Friday, after one week of treatment, he had only a 74% loss. I think that loss is 30% now after almost two weeks because he stands straight up.

Was this measured with an XRAY? If so was it wearing a head weight?

Now... I heard all of the commotion about the 'long-term results'... and for that I have two things to say... First, this is a new program... it's only been around since 2005... so there won't be results. The program is still evolving, and Clear will tell you that... And second, when researching for yourselves, consider the ages of the patients. Someone over 50 is going to be much more difficult to treat than someone under 15... please keep that in mind. There are a lot of people that are down on the program, but when you read the posts, they are clearly older.

Well my only concern is that there are no "short term results" either. I bet Dr. Stitzel can't produce a single patient with verifiable results outside of his office measurements. IE. a real radiologist. And by the way, I wonder how long they can keep using that line. "its only been around for....2,5,10 years? That's why we can't show any real results!"

So while there are no long term results... but... with the exercise regimen, NONE of Dr. Stitzel's patients regressed as long as they stuck with the exercises and the traction chair... that is proven fact. Yes, it's only been a few years, but a few years of no regression by hundreds of patients... doesn't that say something about the long term results?

You might want to confirm the souce of this "PROVEN FACT". Ironically it is a heck of pitch to back up selling you the traction chair, don't you think? Also I suppose if they all regressed one could just say they must not have done the chair and excercises! What percent did not comply?

Right now, I'm a believer. In four months when my son does his follow-up visit, I may feel different, but after the past two weeks and talking to tons of people who had the treatment over the past few years, I don't think my position will change.[/QUOTE]

I am not trying to rain on your parade because I know you have no choice but to do anything you can for your child. I am saying something because I don't want you getting taken too badly! You may feel I am biased but one thing to keep in mind is that whoever this doctor is, learned how to do this from Dr. Woggon, who I saw personally less than one year ago. I hope I am wrong and that maybe the treatment just did not work for me. All the best, Bish

[Karen Ocker]

BlueCrystalMan
First, this is a new program... it's only been around since 2005... so there won't be results. The program is still evolving, and Clear will tell you that...
With modern medicine new treatments on humans are strictly regulated and scrutinized. Remember we are dealing with human beings. A consent is signed explaining the possible downsides/possible benefits --with no guarantees. Subjects of experimental medical treatments are usually reimbursed for expenses and the treatment. Never do study participants of a new treatment have to shell out big bucks$$$

Money for new medical experimental treatments comes from gov't grants or specific groups(cancer, lupus, birth defects, etc) who raise money. The treatments are scrutinized by an institutional review board which decide whether the the whole concept has any merit before allowing it to take place.

This is what worries me about Clear. A "new", expensive treatment with "no results".

We all understand your desperation to save your son from surgery. What if your son's curves return/progress after you finish Clear? You've wasted time.
The only other alternative that has published results In the National Library of Medicine is the Schroth method--it also uses Cheneau bracing. There are some other European ones which I saw recently, utilizing similar modalities, but forget where.

You might want to search all the Clear posts on this Forum and contact those people posting them. Some people were adamant it was the answer but, when I tried to contact them, I got no response. If it was so great we would be hearing about it and papers with preliminary results would be published for all the world to benefit.. :rolleyes:

[BlueCrystalMan]

The only real answer is to push further gene ID

Right on, Pam! Gene therapy IS the way of the future, but it's not here yet... so we have to go with what we have currently. Hopefully by the time my son starts producing offspring, there will have been a breakthrough and scoliosis will be a thing of the past.

If money is an issue, I would strongly suggest that on the last day of treatment you go straight from the XRay at the clear and have your cobb angle verified by an outside source THE SAME DAY. It will cost you $100 and then you can decide if you should spend $3000 on your own traction chair.If the numbers they gave you are out to lunch,I am sure you would reconsider the validity of the whole thing.If it is bogus, why put your Son through months/ years of bogus therapy?

My son's SpineCor doc offered to do a set of xrays on Monday, and even offered to review the Clear films, AND Dr. Stitzel would have released them to me for the review... However, the SpineCor doc's method of measurement is much different from that of Clear.

Nick had a set of xrays taken going into the program, an interim set, and an exit set. I understand what you're saying, bish, but if the initial set was the baseline by which the remaining two sets were based and compared, how can that be bogus?

Was this measured with an XRAY? If so was it wearing a head weight?

He was... in all three... so regardless, if you have a baseline and are comparing additional films to it, how are the readings bad?

Well my only concern is that there are no "short term results" either. I bet Dr. Stitzel can't produce a single patient with verifiable results outside of his office measurements. IE. a real radiologist.

There are plenty of short-term results, my son being one of them. I've spoken to several parents who had their children through the Clear program, and most of them had great results. In all cases, the curves were reduced to some degree. Again, one girl had breathing problems, and the problems subsided after treatment.


And by the way, I wonder how long they can keep using that line. "its only been around for....2,5,10 years? That's why we can't show any real results!"

THEY are saying the method has been around for three years. I am asking how can you expect long term results in such a short time frame? I'm sure as the results are studied, long-term results will be published. As of right now, there was a kid in the office that I spoke to... In the eight months he's been being treated, his curves actually decreased through his after-care.

You might want to confirm the souce of this "PROVEN FACT". Ironically it is a heck of pitch to back up selling you the traction chair, don't you think? Also I suppose if they all regressed one could just say they must not have done the chair and excercises! What percent did not comply?

I'm self-employed, so the chair was a huge expense. I inquired of Clear about a discount on the chair, and they very quickly provided me the names of two people who had chairs available for purchase. Clear in no way made it seem like I needed to purchase a chair from them. Further, on the money thing, Dr. Stitzel's office hardly discussed insurance/payment options with me at all. To me, after seeing this for two weeks, they were concerned with the care of my son. And not once did the doc himself discuss funds... at all. Only on the second to the last day did the staff go over everything with me regarding copays... that was all they were interested in collecting. Going into the program, when I first signed on back in November, they took a copy of my insurance card... and that was pretty much it. So I've got a very different opinion as far as the money aspect of it goes.

I am not trying to rain on your parade because I know you have no choice but to do anything you can for your child. I am saying something because I don't want you getting taken too badly! You may feel I am biased but one thing to keep in mind is that whoever this doctor is, learned how to do this from Dr. Woggon, who I saw personally less than one year ago. I hope I am wrong and that maybe the treatment just did not work for me.

How old are you, bish? I'm really sorry the treatment didn't work for you. However, my son is 14 and still growing... His growth plates haven't set up yet... still a few years to go for that. And I personally feel he is going to have to deal with this all of his life... but if this treatment reduced the curves to where they were even a year ago, how is that a bad thing? The kid is an exercise maniac anyway... so 20 extra minutes worth of exercises to attempt to keep the curves down not only don't cost him anything but time he does have, but they are priceless if they work. Even in the SpineCor brace he had to do exercises, so this is nothing new to him, and again, he loves to exercise. The exercises make sense as they relate to the curves.

For me to stand there and look at him and see a physical difference, that, to me, is progress. Can we keep him there? Lord only knows... Any regrets about the last two weeks? No... we tried, and it was painless for him.

It was a very positive experience for us... Yes, it was costly, but we can now say we tried. I'm optimistic that it is going to work for him because of his age and willingness to do the afterwork... and if it doesn't work, it was still worth getting the curves down because that shows me that they can be reduced, even if just temporarily, because that reduction, somewhere along the way, someone is going to take and find a way to maintain.


What if your son's curves return/progress after you finish Clear? You've wasted time.

And what if they don't? I've wasted nothing. It can go either way at this point, and being proactive, and understanding the treatments and the exercises, I can't see how any of it will hurt. His curves were reduced. You can see it physically with no medical training necessary.

The only other alternative that has published results In the National Library of Medicine is the Schroth method--it also uses Cheneau bracing. There are some other European ones which I saw recently, utilizing similar modalities, but forget where.

But even that isn't always successful. None of them are. Sitting and waiting is not an option for me. Even SpineCor promised great things and didn't deliver FOR US. As I wrote earlier, is his curve initially at 53 degrees because of SpineCor and would have been worse if we didn't go that route? We'll never know, and like to think that it was because of SpineCor that it was ONLY 53 degrees.


You might want to search all the Clear posts on this Forum and contact those people posting them. Some people were adamant it was the answer but, when I tried to contact them, I got no response.

I contacted many, and got many responses, and based on my readings here, and elsewhere, and the responses of people that went through Clear, I made my decision, and have no regrets.

[Bish]

[QUOTE=BlueCrystalMan]

My son's SpineCor doc offered to do a set of xrays on Monday, and even offered to review the Clear films, AND Dr. Stitzel would have released them to me for the review... However, the SpineCor doc's method of measurement is much different from that of Clear.
Wow! I would find that statement a little concerning. I notice you said he WOULD have given you films. What about the medical system? Have you had prior XRAYS through a real doctor? Could YOU notice an improvement in the films? I overlayed mine to see if I could see the 30%ish curve reduction they were claiming. I am sure you can guess what I saw.


Nick had a set of xrays taken going into the program, an interim set, and an exit set. I understand what you're saying, bish, but if the initial set was the baseline by which the remaining two sets were based and compared, how can that be bogus?

Well if the practitioner who is charging you the money for the therapy is the same person you are expecting to get unbiased results from, I am sure you can see the conflict of interest.I am just saying for all the effort and money put into the treatment, why not confirm its validity?


He was... in all three... so regardless, if you have a baseline and are comparing additional films to it, how are the readings bad?


[COLOR=Orange]If you are saying he had a head weight on for all the xrays, don't you find that concerning? What the heck does that prove? It sure would be interesting to weigh the head weight in the first xray compared to the last xray.A heavier weight would account for a more appealing looking head positioning.IE reduced forward head positioning. All that proves is that a bag of weight strategically placed on your head will temporarilly reduce forward head positioning. So what? What about change without a head weight?



How old are you, bish? I'm really sorry the treatment didn't work for you. However, my son is 14 and still growing... His growth plates haven't set up yet... still a few years to go for that. And I personally feel he is going to have to deal with this all of his life... but if this treatment reduced the curves to where they were even a year ago, how is that a bad thing? The kid is an exercise maniac anyway... so 20 extra minutes worth of exercises to attempt to keep the curves down not only don't cost him anything but time he does have, but they are priceless if they work. Even in the SpineCor brace he had to do exercises, so this is nothing new to him, and again, he loves to exercise. The exercises make sense as they relate to the curves.I am 35 years old. I am sorry if I look like the consumate skeptic but I just saw a lot of very suspect things in the whole treatment program, and the guy I saw is teaching this stuff to everyone else! He started the whole program!

It was a very positive experience for us... Yes, it was costly, but we can now say we tried. I'm optimistic that it is going to work for him because of his age and willingness to do the afterwork... and if it doesn't work, it was still worth getting the curves down because that shows me that they can be reduced, even if just temporarily, because that reduction, somewhere along the way, someone is going to take and find a way to maintain.



And what if they don't? I've wasted nothing. It can go either way at this point, and being proactive, and understanding the treatments and the exercises, I can't see how any of it will hurt. His curves were reduced. You can see it physically with no medical training necessary.

[BlueCrystalMan]

I'm not out to make you look like a jackass... nor anyone else. I'm here to give an opposing viewpoint. Obviously it didn't work for you, and again, I feel bad that it didn't... But I think it is fair to state to those reading this that are considering alternative treatments your age in regards to the treatment options. You and I both know that the older you get, the tougher it is to treat. That is not a shot against your age by any stretch... it is just a statement.

The weights on his head were identical in all three sets of xrays, and the argument is irrelevant. When you're given a starting point, and your endpoint is measured EXACTLY the same way, those are the results... period. It doesn't matter if he's got 100 pound weights up there or if he's standing on his head... The unit of measurement, as long as the conditions are exactly the same for both shots, will be exact. No matter how you convolute the environment, A + B comes out to C every time if the exact same protocols are followed. If you're suggesting that this doctor changed the weights on Nick's head to get skewed results, you are not only sadly mistaken, but I doubt you've got ANY proof of that, and you have just opened yourself up to a libel lawsuit. And if you can prove your claims, then you can definitely rightfully sue for your money back and any damages. But I can tell you this with absolute certainty... I was VERY hands on during the two weeks, and your claims are without merit and VERY off-base.

Why is Nick's SpineCor doc's measurements suspect? Because there is a large margin for error... Nick had to just plant his feet and the films were taken while he was standing up. The films were then measured with a shared angle... the middle one... so if he twisted or turned one way or another, BOTH top and bottom readings got skewed from the previous set. Clear takes smaller subsets, so there is much less margin for error.

This isn't an exact science. There are theories that being worked so they are proven... and the methods are changing while the research continues. You had a negative experience, and because of your writings I almost bailed. Will I be angry and bitter if it doesn't work for my son? No. Why? Because I know there are no promises going in other than they will reduce the curves... which they did. As I stated, I can see it physically with my own eyes... just my son standing there in the kitchen without any bracing or weights. How can you put a price on that? If he regresses, so what? We now know that the curves can be backed off quite a bit, and what protocol can be examined to work on maintaining it? Dr. Stitzel said when we come back in four months for the follow-up, there will most likely be different exercises or treatment regimens. It was the same thing with the SpineCor doc... always new exercises that came out every quarter in the two years we were under his care.

I'm optimistic, and will remain optimistic. The results weren't fantastic for my son, but I knew that going in. He did improve in those two weeks. If he regresses before his four month checkup, let's find out why. No two cases are alike, and if whatever data we're providing lends itself to a permanent fix, and surgery was avoided, we all win.

So make all the claims you want, but be ready to provide proof if called on them... but I am telling you first-hand that there was zero trickery.

[Bish]

Bluecrystalman,
You seem very convinced that this whole deal is on the up and up to the point which I will no longer argue about the logistics of certain entities of the treatment with you. Again I wish you the best and hope I am wrong about the whole deal. What I can tell you is that I do have more info than what I have conveyed here that makes me feel the way I do, but I don't think you want to hear it. As far as my slanderous comments or suggestions regarding the clear institute, I am more trying to inspire some different thoughts or options in determining if this thing is viable scientifically. You seem a little overprotective of the program which I feel may sway your ability to look at things objectively.What about my thoughts on massage therapy, laying down, etc on the effects of xrays? Do you think the clear institute can show evidence that disputes this? I know they can't. As far as a libel law suit I can't exactly say I am shaking in my boots. I can see the day in court now........ We are a clinic that provides the suggestion of the possibility of reduction of curves in scoliotic patients at a cost of $3000 plus plus plus, a week per person with no scientific evidence whatsoever that it works. We don't like what Bish says about our clinic and therefore intend to sue him for defamation of reputation that we never even had. Good luck boys.
Anyways that was obviously sarcasm intended for amusement. In reality, did you know that the clear institute is really little more than a website? I have been to and seen the "Clear institute" which is one virtually empty room in the basement of an old building in St Cloud Minnessota. The founders son sells the traction chairs. Anyways, don't be mad, I am only expressing my opinion.As we all know , opinions are like ###holes. Everyone has one.Bish

[structural75]

Not to fan any any flames, but I thought it's worth mentioning this without bias... For the most accurate reading on effect of any treatment, x-rays should be taken without any external device attached to the body. What you are looking to measure are the natural, uninfluenced positions of the spine in any or all of the three planes. Taking x-rays with weights attached only shows the extensibility of the tissue and thus deformation of the cervical curve. And even though the baseline in those x-rays is consistent, it does very little to show whether the body will hold such change on a functional level... It only shows that one can 'stretch' connective tissues using weight, getting progressively more length out of the tissues with each subsequent treatment. It does not address the cause of the initial shortening and in the case of the cervical region, this cause could and probably is quite complex and stubborn to change as it is always linked to neurovascular and visceral structures. One cannot/should not use weights to pull on the pleural dome (suspensory ligaments running from the cervical vertebrae to the upper portion of the lungs) or force stretching of the soft tissues associated with the neurologic structures of the neck/head region.

If the treatment was in fact effective in the 'long term', they would taking x-rays without the weights attached. The true test is whether the effect holds on its own, not whether they can displace the neck with weights. The picture on their website of someone who underwent this treatment shows them looking down at the ground in the before x-ray and looking up at the ceiling in the after x-ray. When was the last time we saw someone with their head/eyes angled in either of these directions while standing upright, walking , etc. The body always rights the eyes/head to the horizon, regardless of neck positioning. Those images are misleading.

My concern with this treatment, in part, is that they may be causing further stress/harm to the system/organs/structures as a whole by using force to pull on such delicate and unforgiving structures. Also, the neck is the last portion of our spine to adapt to discrepancies below it. It will have little chance of holding that change if the thoracic and lumbar spine as well as the pelvis remains aberrant.

My hope is that we will someday see barbaric and overly-simplified methods like this eliminated altogether from the repetoire of treatments... and head down a more intelligent, receptive, perceptive and communicative path with the human body. It's sad to think this type of approach is "alternative or progressive"... Haven't we learned anything from modern day medicine?

Just my thoughts. I understand it's worth a try... and everyone is doing their best to make informed decisions. Unfortunately, business and medicine have become somewhat synonymous these days making those decisions even harder to make with clarity.

best,
structural

[BlueCrystalMan]

Great post, structural.

Bish... I'm not mad... by any stretch of the imagination. I am curious about your 'other information.' Moreso, though, about how you acquired the information. And if your information is proof of deceit on behalf of Clear, I would be interested in reviewing that information for a basis in legal action.

Again, the way my son now stands after treatment, and how he feels, is testament to the fact that the short-term benefits are there. As for the long-term benefits, as with all of the various bracing options, we'll have to wait and see. It really is all we have at this point, right?

And yes, I am aware that the owner's son sells the chairs... he's the one that provided me the names of the people that had used ones available.

Anyway, PM me any pertinent information you care to share about what you alluded to above... If your information is well-founded, and a disservice done to my son, I WILL lead the charge...

[txmarinemom]

I have to wonder why they're willing to sell used chairs when they could easily sell a new chair (and gain monetarily). The skeptic in me asks "why would they be willing to advertise used equipment?".

Did they perhaps not work, and he's doing a little CYA with unhappy patients?

Just a thought ...

Regards,
Pam

[BlueCrystalMan]

One step ahead of you, Pam. The person I'm getting ours from has decided on a different route of treatment due to various reasons. I am not at liberty to discuss that here, as I should let her tell her own story (she is a member of this forum and may have already stated her reasons).

I can say that it isn't primarily for the reason you're thinking.

[yellowfish]

Bish, good to find somebody from BC, I live in Richmond. Yes, it's impossible to find any specialists nearby. but I was recommended by my cousin to a Chinese medicine clinic, that 'physician' claimed he can treat scoliosis. My cousin had leg length difference due to scoliosis, but she thinks she's treated now. However, she's unable to even get the family doctor to x ray her. but she can see the result. So, i am now thinking if i should give it a try, although i'm very skeptical about it. From this site, it seems all those alternative treatment are useless. But I did find something from a Tawainese scoliosis patients' website, they claimed this 3D bracing treatment is effective to adult patients. Here is the study those university doctors did couple years ago comparing the results even after without bracing for 1 year. http://scoliosisclub.com/pages02/008/008.htm
(the first page is chinese, then the report is in English)

[Bish]

Hey there. How are you. Nice to meet a close neighbor. So what is your story? age? sex? pain? degrees? Let me know if this doc can do anything. If so you can tell him I am next in line. Hahah! and we can make him a rich man if he is for real. Bish

[txmarinemom]

age? sex? pain? degrees?

What kind of board IS this, Bish???? LOL ...

You just gave me my first much needed laugh for the day. Thanks!

Regards,
Pam

[Bish]

I guess that was a little blunt! Hahaha! I was kind of time constrained when i wrote it. By the way I saw your pics on your profile. Its funny how your curve doesn't look much worse than mine in an Xray, but mine is only latter 20's in degree. HMMM. Maybe mine are underestimated. Your body hides it well too. Most people would never guess I had a problem either. Although I am sure those flashy pants you are wearing in the photo would not look as good on me. Bish

[txmarinemom]

By the way I saw your pics on your profile. Its funny how your curve doesn't look much worse than mine in an Xray, but mine is only latter 20's in degree. HMMM. Maybe mine are underestimated. Your body hides it well too.

Yeah, I think in my case, it's due to the compensatory C and L curves that balance things out - and keep my head mostly centered over my pelvis.

It took seeing my xrays for most to exclaim "HOLY S^*&!" ... they didn't have a clue.

Regards,
Pam

[yellowfish]

Haha, that's OK. I'm new here, I don't really know how to put my little profile out. I just turned 25, my degree is 25 as well, diagnosed 10 years ago. I never have significant pain, so I never bother for treatment. I guess I'm a lot luckier than most patients here. But recently I heard that the pain will grow as I age, and I do get annoyed by my back's curve, I don't dare to wear any tight clothing or bikini, I just feel so bad about it. So when I heard my cousin treated her leg length difference, I was hoping for miracle. But there are just way too many fake treatment out there. I'll update you guys as I start my treatment.

[yellowfish]

Pam, I just saw your picture, your back doesn't look too much different than me either, maybe even better than me wearing that tight shirt. Anyways, wish you luck with your surgery!

[LindaY.]

I have looked at this site many times, desperately looking for scoliosis info. When I did a search for Dr. Woggon at Clear Institute I wanted to read from people who have been there, what their results were and if they have maintained the improvement, or not. Did you or your child continue to do all the exercises he teaches? That would be a big factor in the success of any treatment you choose.
My daughter Michelle has been going to Woggon since 11/7/07. She is 14, had been involved in gymnastics for a few years but not for the past 2 years. She has been in JustForKix dance since first grade and now made the high school danceline with lots of practice and flexibility. Diagnosed with scoliosis in 2004, told to wait (of course). Told in October 07 at Gillette Children's in St.Paul, MN to get surgery in March 08. We did some research, would only do surgery as a last resort, and decided to try something while waiting. Michelle had angles of cerv. 27, thor 53, and lumb 42. Would they be 30,60,50 by March?
Dr. Woggon is eccentric with several of his own inventions to manipulate the scoliosis curves. He also gives several exercises to do there and at home. My husband and I have watched what he and his assistants do and it all makes sense although we go through times of being skeptical. We thought her back was looking better and after a month of visiting 3 times/week for 4 weeks her re exam results were good: cerv 14, thor 47, and lumb 30. We have seen many teens from around the country come in for a week or two at a time with similar results. There are binders full of photos and xrays of patients with similar results. The problem, we don't hear much from people who were there years ago and still are maintaining their improvements. There was one guy who has been there 3 times for a week each time, over the past year and a half. He started with a curve over 100 and has improved each time.
My conclusion is that Dr. Woggon has looked at how the body works, taken years to tweak his treatments, and he can lessen the scoliosis curves in a lot of people. Maybe it doesn't work for everyone, maybe everyone doesn't commit to doing all the exercises. Isn't it better to reduce the curves by 10-15 degrees and be doing something to help yourself throgh the exercises? (most of them are not hard to do, stretches basically, except that darn Echart table which moves your legs up and down while you are strapped on, pulling your curves in the opposite direction. With busy kids, it is hard to find the time to do them.) Being "lucky" enough to travel 1:45min to his office 3x/week and now 2x/week (Feb), will maybe work better than those who come for a one week visit. We foresee going to once/week then 2/month, 1/month over the next years. We knew going in, that it would be a long-term commitment. Wouldn't you expect that after waiting so long for it to get this bad that it would take a while to improve? Instead of seeing her curves getting worse, we've see her shoulder sticking out less, her back straighter, and her being less self-conscience about her appearance. I give a lot of credit to Michelle for working so hard for this.
There are a lot of doctors around the world doing similar exercise technics, with good results. We think it's worth the try. We will see what Gillette says when we visit again at the end of March. I'll keep you posted.
We want to hear from those who have been to Clear Institute and your results - especially anyone who was there a few years ago or who visits his office monthly, or less often, to maintain their improvement. Thanks, LindaY.

[LindaRacine]

Isn't it better to reduce the curves by 10-15 degrees and be doing something to help yourself throgh the exercises?
Hi Linda...

I think one also has to consider a few additional elements before passing judgment. For example, at what cost do those 10-15 degrees come (to either yourself or to society), and will the reduction be permanent, or keep one from having to undergo surgery.

--Linda

[LindaY.]

Hello Linda, always good to meet another Linda!
The cost is a lot (about $7000 so far) and we have to keep after our insurance, Aetna, to cover it. Clear Institute does help us out with that although they only file with BlueCross/Blue Shield. Surgery would be over $150,000. Is that justified? That's a whole dif. issue - what insurance companies choose to pay for or not.
Michelle's Dr at Gillette Children's and local Dr waited til her curves were at 50 before talking about surgery and they said they wouldn't do it unless it is that bad. We assume that they won't want to do it since, in Dec., they were at C14, Th47, & L30, and she's still working hard at it. We won't know the answer to that til March 26 when we return to Gillette. We plan on keeping an eye on it over the next several years with the local dr. and/or Gillette. We all know we're in this for the long haul, we assume the exercises will not always get done depending on what's going on in her teen years, but, overall, we are seeing results now and don't think surgery is gonna happen. I guess we all do what we think is best when we are doing it. After 3 and a half months at Clear Institute, we still see it working for Michelle and feel it is the best for our family right now.
I have to say that I don't think her improvement would "stick" if today she quit her exercises and visits to Dr. Woggon. If anyone knows of a treatment that does cure scoliosis and you never have to do anything again, PLEASE let us all know. I would assume some of the other methods such as the scroth clinic in Wisconsin, the ones in Germany, Italy, and certain ones all over the world do work. They're all started by people like Dr. Woggon, who have studied, researched, tried many methods, and really thought things through, and they are actually doing what many people say can not be done.
Keep doing what you think is best -
Please reply here if you have tried Clear Institute and Dr. Woggon's technique. Thanks BlueCrystalMan for your info. Isn't it wonderful to see improvement instead of waiting and watching it get worse! That is priceless!

[WNCmom]

BlueCrystalMan:

Thanks for the detailed description way back in January. I've been away and just now read your post of Nick's progress with Clear Institute on his last day of treatment. One thing I missed--do you have his cobb angle post-treatment? I'm curious to know how much his curve was reduced (you mentioned you could see it was reduced just by looking). Did you have non-weight x-rays done, and if not, why not? Seems like it would be good to compare apples and apples.

I am curious about this because I'm looking into it for my own son, a few years younger, with a T curve similar to Nick's.

Mary Ellen

[LindaY.]

Update: Our 14 yr old daughter Michelle has been doing the CLEAR exercises and adjustments since 11/07/07, 3X/wk for 5 wks, now in March it's 2x/wk, soon to go down to 1/wk. We live a couple hrs. away so didn't do the intense 1 or 2 wk program that people from around the country and world are doing. The exercises are not difficult, just time consuming, (all of our fitness programs are) but Michelle knows this scoliosis is part of her life, it took years to get this bad while we did nothing, it will take a long-term commitment to take control of it. She knows surgery would limit her mobility, she would have months of pain, and she would have to do exercises or therapy afterward anyway, why not do it now and learn how to correct her body mechanics. We were thinking that when we took her back to the orthopedic surgeon we would expect angles to increase at least 5 degrees over the past 5 months as they had increased by 15 degrees over the last 18 months and by 10 degrees over the previous 6 months. We were worried that they would want to schedule rod surgery. We just prayed for it to be unchanged!
We revisited Gillette Children's Hospital in St.Paul March 26 for a 4 month recheck. Original angles were T51, L43 didn't measure C-neck. Now angles were T49 and L39. The dr. called it unchanged. We were very happy to hear that! (even if we saw that it was actually a few degrees improved.) Sure, there are those few degrees of measuring error but, hey, not worse, no surgery, come back in a year and every year until she's 18 or 20 yrs. old. And, he said to continue what she's doing.

As we have come to understand, Dr. Woggon's program improves the curves, they do not immediately stay at those lower degrees but over time, and with the patients exercise, they will hold at lower and lower numbers, lower than if left to watch and wait. It does cost a lot of money, (some is being covered by our insurance), takes time, but doesn't everything worth fighting for. After these 5 months of this program, Michelle is finally realizing that how she walks, sits, holds her head, and sleeps affects her spine. She has told Dr. Woggon that a couple exercises don't seem to do anything, he watched her do them and taught her what area it should be working and where she should feel it. He gave her a DVD with how and why to do all the exercises.
Dr. Woggon is doing what some say can not be done. Other chiropractors hold him in the highest regard, are sending their patients to him, and are coming to see how he is improving the outlook for so many kids and adults with scoliosis. He is featured in The American Chiropractor magazine with the entire April issue dedicated to scoliosis - very interesting.
I'd love to hear from more of you who have been doing the CLEAR Institute program. Keep doing your exercises! It's your life!

[krissysmom]

OK. I am going to try to keep a long story short here. Some of you may remember I was talking a while back about going to the clear institute in Minnessota. Well, I did. I went for one week in march at a cost of $3000 U.S plus airfare and hotel from Vancouver Canada. You may have already read in some other previous posts a little about the treatment methods so I won't fill this post with that stuff. I will just get straight to the good stuff, the results! I have had chronic pain 24hrs a day from curves not typically associated with such. Before going I had curves of 23 and 25 measured by my last radiologist in Canada and confirmed by Dr. Woggon at 23/26 before treatment. After treatment................? 13/18 amazing eh!?Along with that, a number of other pseudo scientific positive results! Great huh? ..........Well not so fast. Pain.... unchanged. I had my concerns to say the least about the whole deal so I went to confirm these measurements again with my radiologist in Canada two weeks later......... 24/26....... huh what do ya know. Strange? I am sure you are sensing my sarcasm by now.
Anyways I could write a book on this so I will hit you with my key thoughts about the treatment. Problems...... 1.had about 20 or more different treatment methods going on in the same day. Made me wonder how one could scientifically determine what treatment was doing what. 2. some of the key treatment methods that have been supposedly reducing curves had recently been significantly changed (like I mean total opposite). 3. some key treatment methods had been recently altered because they were causing the problem they were supposed to be fixing! ( will elaborate later) .
Anyways, you get where I am going with this. I have more goodies I will share at a later date. But let's just say there were even more serious concerns I had than these.
Now, I would love to say I came up with this myself, but in fact my wife looked at photos of my before and after xrays from the clinic in Minnessota and came up with a theory. Here it is. Before treatment, xrays were taken breathing out...... and after treatment xrays were taken breathing in, thus resulting in a positive looking post X-ray. Sound too simple? I presented my theory to the radiologist in Canada and pretty much had our theory verified with about 95% accuracy (based on her best guess). So you can draw your own conclusions. I made a suggestion a number of months ago about wanting to make a contribution to a new fund, to send a forum member to the clear institute. Lots of people pooh poohed that. Haha! And that is O.K, I was only trying to provoke some thought. So here is my little contribution to investigating a non surgical alternative to scoliosis reduction, I tried it myself.


I had hopes about the treatment, but I am a born skeptic and was expecting the worst. Kinda one of those things I had to get out of my head and give it a shot. Can't succeed if you don't take a chance. All the best, Bish.


Bish,
Hi there. I am so glad that I ran across your posting. I have been consdering bringing my daughter to the Clear institute. We are also looking into the Schoth method and we just couldn't decide. Thanks so much for you input. Hollyn

[FiniteJane]

I was very upset with the treatment I received from the Clear Institute (to the extent that I would consider it a sham). I went to Dr Woggon in St. Cloud in 2006. I drove from Canada and spent about $2500. My first complaint: he claims he will only book you with one other scoliosis patient at a time, but in reality, he crams as many patients through their as he can so you spend a lot of time with his assistants. Complaint #2: when I was there his assistants were two young women (18-22) with no training. They were responsible for taking a lot of my measurements and overseeing the exercises and stretches I was supposed to do, as well as setting me up in many of the contraptions Dr Woggon uses (he has all sort of contraptions in various stages of completion, many which he is "still figuring out" so you have to "bare with him" on your dime. These women were obviously very stressed and unhappy. Dr Woggon runs around spewing out lists of exercises and protocols for treating each patient and then takes off. The two girls were left there starring in bewilderment like they only caught 10% of what he said. Then they proceed to direct me on the exercises I should do. Your treatment unfolds like circuit training. You do a series of stretches and exercises, then get a massage (from a machine, so it is not as good as it sounds) and then get adjusted by Dr Woggon, then are put into contraptions that "realign you" and then go through the whole thing again and again and again...all day. I was there for a day and a half. Most of this time was spent with the two assistants who were so unhappy they could barely look at me. They spent most of their time complaining about Dr Woggon, making fun of the patients, and fighting over what was to be done. While setting me up in one contraption, one of the girls said to the other, "can you look at this, I don't think its right?" The other girl replied "no, but leave it, it serves him right." I said "excuse me ladies, I just drove here from Canada for this treatment. If you have any doubts about what you are doing, I want you to ask Dr. Woggon about it now." They did. He came to rearrange me and then confused himself (he forgot which way my spine curved). After fiddling around for a while he said, "sorry, I am still working this out...most of my stuff here is patent pending." Nice. Perhaps you should start billing people $1000 a day after you figure it out! Complaint #3: I have little faith in all of the before and after measurements for several reasons. Firstly, the assistants do a lot of the measurements and they are not paying attention to what they are doing. The measurements are also more complicated than one would think. They have a hand-held device that is supposed to measure force and resistance. They hold it to different parts of your body and ask you to push against it or resist force. They are looking for asymmetries in strength and flexibility. The problem is that everybody has asymmetries, including the assistants, which should be factored into the equation (for testing my left side she holds the device in her right hand, for testing my right side she holds it in her left hand...but how much of the change was me and how much was her?). I also did think she wasn't concentrating enough to be consistent in what she was doing. The other measurement issue is to do with the x-rays. Dr Woggon takes the "before" x-rays as is (without any aids or posture corrections). He takes the after x-rays with all sorts of contraptions on you: head weights, hip weights, special glasses that force you to look up (which puts a arch in your neck) etc. Any researcher will tell you that this is bunk! You cannot compare before's and after's accurately if you take them under different circumstances and with different aides and interventions. I saw a osteopath who had me move into a series of different positions to see if my curves would change by positioning alone, and guess what, they did. She charged me $60 for this one hour assessment and treatment (which is a little less than the amount of one-on-one time I had with Dr Woggon... for close to $2000). Complaint #4: several of the adjustments that were done to me were painful. Some of these adjustments are controversial, I think one has even been banned in Canada because it can cause internal hemoragging. I saw Dr. Woggon using these adjustments on everyone who came in, regardless if they had scoliosis or not, so I think he is using a one-size fits all approach for most of the treatment you will get...he just changes the stretches and contraptions based on your curve...if he can remember how it goes. RECOMMENDATION: Save your money. I will sum up for you the most important things I learned. First, be aware of your neck positioning and try various exercises to get a curve back in your neck. No spine can be stick straight, it needs curves. People with scoliosis often lack the natural curves (particularly in their necks) so their bodies make new ones. If your neck lacks a curve and is protruding forward (which is common in people with scoliosis... your x-ray will look like you have wiplash) then your spine is going to be under all sorts of stress to try and deal with the extra weight that is caused by your head (which is heavy) leaning forward. You can try sleeping with a towel rolled up under your neck (or at least doing it for 20-30 minutes once or twice a day... you will want to ease into this). The other thing I learned is that you really need to do stretches and exercises every day to keep your spine feeling good. No one can fix your spine over night. In many cases your ribs and vertebra will be deformed, so they will never go "back into place" but you can prevent your curves from growing and keep the pain away. I do hot yoga 3-5 times a week and see a chiropractor once a month or so (not a clear institute chiro) and I feel better than ever. I hope this helps someone out there! If you have any questions feel free to email me.

[ecnw]

Wow, I had never even heard of this place before, it sounds like a place that in years will be haunted by disgruntled patients. Alright, maybe a little harsh, but on the haunting shows on tv it's the nedical places that are the eriest.
Anyway, parents out there, here's a question, how do your kids feel about the treatment? Do they feel like guinea pigs or are they comfortable with it?
As a kid I tried some of the exercises (yeah, didn't do that for long) and had to do the scolitron (ouch! nothing like electrical shocks to get a restful sleep).
Of course, my parents were doing what they thought they could to postpone surgery, which I am greatful for, it was a year or two extra before I had to have it. With my own kids, I went in talking to the doctor about what I wouldn't allow and would. If at anytime I felt it too experimental, forget it.
My kids will have to tell me in ten years what they felt worked and didn't, and if they pass it to their kids, make their own decisions about treatment.
Just before you try alternative methods, think twice, if you wouldn't have it done to yourself, don't do it to your kids.
Emily

[txmarinemom]

... The other thing I learned is that you really need to do stretches and exercises every day to keep your spine feeling good. No one can fix your spine over night. In many cases your ribs and vertebra will be deformed, so they will never go "back into place" but you can prevent your curves from growing and keep the pain away.

Absolutely, Jane ... pre-op OR post-op, stretching as your doctor allows is good. Flexibility is desirable (exercise if you can): It MAY prevent pain.

Subluxation is a BS chiro term. Yes, most of us have it, but it's from a *structural* curve. It is NOT the underlying root cause.

Who told you "you can prevent your curves from growing"?

You need to educate yourself *quite* a bit more. Your views about Clear support what most believe. Your OTHER views, I'll consider to be without basis ... unless you have proof.

(I'd LOVE to see it)

Pam

[Bish]

Hello Finitejane,
I know exactly what you are talking about. Woggon is a fruit loop, preying on those afflicted with this crappy problem. Where are you from Finitejane? I am from Canada as well. Abbotsford. B.C.
All the best, Bish

[curvycakes]

I just skimmed over most of these posts, and I am very very interested. I started the Clear Institute program last summer with a local chiropractor. I was so excited, I think I even posted a thread about it. Everything was great for the first few months. I was doing some pretty unconventional treatments (head weights? shoulder weights? vibrating chair?) but they seemed to work for the most part. Also, I never really had pain or discomfort before this program (even though my main curve is about 50 degrees) and you can't really tell that I have a rib hump. I was a little sore after some of the treatments though, but it was one of those GOOD sores..like how you feel after you work out. I guess because we were working with the back muscle.
After a while though, I noticed that there were so many problems with this program. First of all, my scoliosis started to go back to its original curvature even though we had initially gotten great results. THEN, after weeks (since Woggon was SO busy) he told my chiropractor to assign completely different exercises--completely opposite. And one time, I nearly fainted on the vibrating chair. Despite all of this, I was still 100% committed because my chiropractor was great and understanding and I really believed in all of this since it dealt with the physiological reasoning behind it. Even though my chiropractor was new with the program, he was SO into it, always looking for new ways to fix things and even going to conferences about this. Ironically, I was the only patient that decided to stick with it. I had started with two other people who quit.
I can't even begin to tell you how great my chiropractor has been throughout all of this. We were both really dedicated--so much so, that we would stay at the office after hours and attempt to fix Woggon's mistakes in emails, letters, treatment plans, etc. It got to a point where Woggon was suddenly unreachable. It's like he couldn't deal with the problems that we were facing. I think the last thing we heard from him was that my scoliosis was "World-Class-Scoliosis" and it would take a lot of time and fixing to 'cure' it. That was it. Bye bye.
I understand that other people might not have had the same luck that I had with their chiropractor, thus having a miserable time with this program. But
I don't feel like this program was/is a completely waste. I do think that Woggon is a very unorganized man and bites off more than he can chew. I agree with his strategies and I didn't mind his unconventional practices, but it's obvious that this man needs to re-evaluate everything he's doing. I don't regret it though, I learned something new and did get some nice results during the program. I quit the program though, mostly for the reason that I was going away to college. Now and then I'll get readjusted by my chiropractor when I'm home for breaks/summer, but they're just normal adjustments.
Also, I read about different techniques when x-raying..that's very interesting to me, because I didn't experience that. I was always in the same position, breathing in or out, for all of my x-rays.
Anyway, I'd love to discuss more!

[FiniteJane]

I am originally from Winnipeg, but I am currently going to school in Montreal. I am now thinking of seeing Dr. Charles Rivard about a SpineCor Brace. Have you tried SpineCor?

[mojoniedi]

money is nothing bish
put do this mean that there is no other way than surgery

I don't know may be some advice will work

any one with a good advice please I will value any hint
:o