Chiro will it help ?

[Les H]

I have a mild curve only 7degrees , but I have pain in my back just beween my shoulder blades. It comes and goes . My Chiropactor wants me to commit to long term teatment . It will cost hundreds of dollars ! Has anyone had success with chiro adjustment ?

[OneofFive1]

Les,
How old are you?

[spincon58]

My opinion don't bother....7 degrees is almost normal...try massages...or try chiro but don't commit....or add it to your insurence policy

[Karen Ocker]

My experience was:
At age 11 I had a very mild curve, my parents sent me to a chiropractor for 9 months, 3X a week. It did not help. My curve ended up at 100 degrees! by age 14 requiring surgery in 1956. My parents had no medical insurance and really did not have that kind of money. False hope!

I needed a revision of that surgery in 2002 at age 60.
Karen

[Les H]

It seem you guys are right , there is no evidance that chiro works . Knowing that I have decided to go once a month for a year. He has given me an exercise program to follow and I intend on following this every day . If between to chiro and exercise I get some pain relief it will be worth it . I know that 7 degress isn't much but for some reason I have a burning pain where the spine is curving back . I have had this befor but it only lasted for a week or so then went away . Now that I'm almost 50 the pain is back and worse !

[OneofFive1]

Les H,
My doctor told me that scoliosis isn't scoliosis untill the curve goes beyond 10 degrees. I am not sure if that is totally accurate but, I thought you might just want to know.

[OneofFive1]

Ohh ,one more thing, since it is such a small curve you might just have to keep a eye on it and see if it gets worse.

[Les H]

It's just great to receive advice form you all ! After reading some of the posts I consider myself lucky ! Who knows mybe my pain is cauesd by arthritis ? I will keep you posted .

[LindaRacine]

Les...

If you have pain at the curve, it seems to me that you might have some condition that is causing a muscle to spasm and pull your spine out of alignment. If the pain persists, get yourself to an orthopaedist who specializes in spine. You can find a list of specialists at any one of these locations:

http://www.srs.org/directory/directory.asp
http://www.spine.org/spinefinder.cfm
http://www.spineuniverse.com/spumd_search.php
http://www.spine-health.com/find/fi01.html

Regards,
Linda

[GHD1959]

Chiropractors cannot help a scoliosis curve, they think they can, but they sure can screw it up. I should know, I got suckered into a long term adjustment plan that I had to stop from so much pain. Don't waste your time and money, they cannot help anyone........

[gruvin84ss]

It's just great to receive advice form you all ! After reading some of the posts I consider myself lucky ! Who knows mybe my pain is cauesd by arthritis ? I will keep you posted .
At 7 degrees, you are really not considered to have scoliosis. The orthapedic journal says that the body starts to develop degeneration two weeks after an incident or trauma has happened to a joint. This is the only reason to seek chiropractic care. Spinal adjustment does not cure scoliosis.

The number one thing found in a predominance of scoliosis patients is a head forward posture. Get somebody to take a picture of you from the side, if your ears are not in line with the seam fo your shirt along your shoulders. This is the beginning of the crankshaft phenomenon and COULD lead to scoilosis.(Scoliosis is a rotation and re-alignment of the Anterior-Posterior power curves to a lateral "S" positioning) HTHs

[Cakedec]

Does anyone out there on this board have any knowledge of this Clinical Bio-mechanics of posture method of chiropractic?

[gerbo]

It is the only technique in the world that can reverse and correct scoliosis.
Dr. Britton

Any evidence of that in studies publishes in reputable journals?

[SandyC]

Cakedec,
Beware, just because this guy that is signing his name as DOCTOR, he IS NOT AN MEDICAL DOCTOR. Anyone with a PhD. (his is in math) can sign their name with Dr.

This person is in the business of making money off of people that have a medical problem. He will offer all sorts of things to make money off of people that need help!!

[LindaRacine]

Sandy....

Chiropractors have a special degree, but it's definitely not a PhD. I've found that some like to tell people that it requires 8 years of study, but in truth, you can get a chiropractic degree in less than 4 years.

--Linda

[gerbo]

that's more than i thought, similar as for physiotherapists and nurses and only 1/2 the amouint needed to become a doctor, or is it part time??

[LindaRacine]

It's probably 3 years to study treatments and another year to learn how to make as much money as possible. ;-)

Actually, I don't know for certain, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there are ways to get a DC in 3 years or less.

--Linda

[green m&m]

It's probably 3 years to study treatments and another year to learn how to make as much money as possible. ;-)

Actually, I don't know for certain, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there are ways to get a DC in 3 years or less.

--Linda

DC schools are four years long like conventional medical schools BUT

Unlike allopathic/osteopathic medicine they do not have residencies.. just 200 hrs of clinical traning. Same amount of clinical traning hours Massage Therapists need to be licesed.. well this is in NY.. don't know about other states.

[KRIS ATKINSON]

Gruvin, I understand your comment from the orthopaedic journal that chiro care works immediately following an accident. My son and I had chiro care for a limited time of several weeks following an accident. The chiro also took care of my daughter when she was first diagnosed with scoli while we waited on the brace to be fitted. He prescribed a certain number of weeks (maybe 12) for my son and me and gradually tapered it off by the end. We both also went to an orthopaedic doctor who prescribed PT after we had finished chiro. I felt the PT was almost identical to the chiro. The Physical Therapist used a contraption like the one on this thread which someone commented looks like the mouth is covered. I have that contraption in a pile in my room now. It is helpful, if I bother to set it up and use it. Actually, I don't have it pull my neck back while something pulls forward as in the photo. I hang mine from a door, sit in a chair, and let it gently pull my head up toward the ceiling. Feels wonderful!! Mine became a hassle to hand and take down, as you fill the weight with water. But when my PT did it, he had me lie on a table and the contraption pulled my head toward the end of the table. I did it for maybe 10 min. or so at a time.

[KRIS ATKINSON]

My chiro quit adjusting my daughter when she got her brace, as he wanted to make sure the ortho was able to assess the effectiveness of the brace without having to consider the effects of the chiro. The only reason I had my daughter get chiro was because my son and I started chiro at the same time she was diagnosed with scoli and the doctor said a child is free with an adult. He filed insurance on my auto for my son and me and included her for free. He acknowledged that he would probably not get much, if any, change in her curvature, but mostly would help the muscles around it, I think it was. I was actually disappointed with his honesty, as I would have loved to hear at the time a "cure." I respected him much more since he did not imply a cure at all, but mostly comfort, if we found it helpful. I am 50, by the way, and the pain at age 50 may be something other than scoli, as I think Linda suggested. I feel like I live at the doctors office now, between myself and my 3 kids. I currently have about 10 degree scoli (as someone said, it is not medically considered scoli at this degree), which probably has given me back pain all my life off and on, plantar fasciitis, which someone mentioned: a problem walking on my heel of my foot, arthritis of the neck. Usually I don't even mention my ailments, but the person who mentioned their spine problem at degree 7, who has pain, is about 50, so I thought I might share my problems at our age with her. Good luck!

[LindaRacine]

I hope you'll also offer a money back guarantee.

[Karen Ocker]

Stop it!!!

All the references you posted are the same authors over and over again. Just because it is published does not mean it is useful or effective.

The only way a treatment is considered effective is when many DIFFERENT researchers use the treatment and get the same successful results on large groups of patients. Then the studies are published in journals for peer review. Even peer review is not perfect-but it it is the best we have--look what happened in South Korea with cloning.

We all wish chiropractic would have straightened us out--so much simpler than surgery. Unfortunately many of us, including myself-as a teen, have gone that expensive route only to have our curves continue to progress.

Karen

[LindaRacine]

Karen....

Hope you also noticed that none of the papers has to do with scoliosis.

--Linda

[Karen Ocker]

I just read at least 5 abstracts of the posted references and I DO understand the lingo. I am not impressed. Many of the references talk about computer "modeling" of the spine as a way to measure it. That does not improve scoliosis. You can measure until the cows come home and it doesn't prove a thing.
Another one talked about "skin". Another talked about "whiplash".

I also looked at the advertised web site. I was not impressed with the advertised/high priced devices offered to practitioners.

[LindaRacine]

None of the research references posted has to do with reducing scoliosis curves. If you can provide proof of permanent structural scoliosis curve reductions, I'd be happy to sing your praises to anyone who will listen. Until then, I've got to believe that posting spam to 10 threads is just a really disgusting marketing ploy.

--Linda

P.S. I'm not impressed that one of your partners used to be affiliated with the Denver Broncos.... unless, of course, some of them had scoliosis ;=)

[nikyergen]

Hey all, I'm only a parent. When I looked at their webpage my thought was I would never put my child through that. Not being professional, that wasn't hard for me to figure out. The contraptions looks scarey. These kids have enough to deal with, why would someone want to scare them with this contraption. We tried Chiro for 1 and 1/2 years, with absolutely no results. I can't imagine going through more time to try something else, when surgery was our only choice. Linda and Karen, I am so glad you are here to help protect others that may be reaching out carelessly for anything possible. My daughter had surgery and is leading an absolutely normal life now. Thank you for being there and doing the buyer beware thing for everyone.

Nikki

[nikyergen]

Northlandmed,
TAKE A HIKE
You need something better to do with your time then harass us that are truly supporting each other.

[nikyergen]

There are lots of success stories here. So, GO AWAY

[nikyergen]

Northlandmed,
You are very rude and very disruptive so GO AWAY. I had a Chiro lie to me for almost two years about scoliosis and kyphosis. So GO AWAY

[nikyergen]

Northlandmed,
I am not asking questions from you, you are just being rude by soliciting. Why don't you just get a telemarketer to do this for you. You have started ADVERTISING your business here, which is not what these forums are for. That is what your WEBPAGE is for. We just are not interested in your soliciting business on this forum. That is not it's purpose. If you knew how kids are diagnosed, you would understand that they are generally referred by their GP's, Pediatricians, etc., for appropriate care. Please don't solicit business on these forums. You haven't walked in our shoes, so you don't know why we make the decisions we make and what we do.

[nikyergen]

Northlandmed,
See, I told you, you don't know what we are doing here. I never said I have a dislike for chiropractors. Because I do use them. However, I don't let my children go to them for scolioisis/kyphosis treatment. We use them as part of our sports medicine, since we have a very athletic family. As a matter of fact, I have taken one of my kids to the chiropractor everyday for the last two weeks, just to get her neck healed up from a basketball injury and get her back to practice and playing ball again. This chiropractor agrees that with scoliosis/kyphosis, that they need to deal with pediatric orthopedic doctors. GET THE PICTURE. GO AWAY AND USE YOUR WEBPAGE FOR ADVERTISEMENT.

[nikyergen]

Northlandmed,
You are such a waste of people's time. You beat around the bush.

You are a very disgusting advertising ploy. Go crawl back in your cereal box.

[nikyergen]

Northlandmed,
If you are not soliciting business, then why are you offering a complimentary consultation. That sounds like solicitation to me. Hmmmm...., Yeah, I am positive it is.

[nikyergen]

Northlandmed,
This must mean that you do all of their treatment for free. I guess then that's not solicitation, as long as you don't charge one dime for any services at all.

[nikyergen]

Northlandmed,
The biggest problem is the way you went about your posting. You posted way to many times. It was absolutely rediculous. You only needed to post once, but ten time on Christmas Night. Oh my gosh, you must of been bored.

[nikyergen]

Yeah, I do work for free. I do volunteer work.

[LindaRacine]

If you really want to help people, I'd encourage you to publicly offer a money back guarantee if you can't improve curves by at least 50%.

In a PM, Northlandmed tells me that her assistant got a 14 degree improvement after just 155 treatments. So, since the investment would obviously be huge, it seems to me that it would be fair to offer the guarantee.

--Linda

[nikyergen]

Linda,
THank you. That's what she isn't telling people. The number of treatments it takes, probably end up costing some money, and the results its gets for the money. Multiply that number of visits by what it costs per treatment. That could get costly.

[flowerpower]

Hey, I will say up front that I'm not a doctor with a medical degree just a regular person who has dealt with scoliosis in my own life as well as just bringing my son home last night after having posterior spinal fusion earlier this week. Surgery was absolutely my last, and, after extensive research (and reflection upon my own experience) only option for my son. What I don't understand is how can your treatment provide permanent correction when 4+years in a Milwaukee brace with PT everyday couldn't? I certainly was not happy about my son facing surgery, but we tried the chiro adjustments, orthotics, etc. with a family chiro friend and it was obvious that, while helpful, it was certainly not a long-term solution to the problem. It was hard to put (and see) my son through this, but I know in my heart this was the right decision and even though fresh from surgery, my son has expressed he feels the same way. We have no regrets about doing what we know what was right for our son. I am not knocking your approach, I am always interested in learning about new and successful approaches to scoliosis treatment (I mean "real" treatments, not empty promises). I would love to hear from your patients (especially those with 45+ degree curves) that through your treatment, were able to permanently correct and reduce their curves. Posting some x-rays showing progressive and permanent reduction in scoliotic curves would be even better.

[SandyC]

niky,
It won't do any good to argue with this "con". Hopefully if we ignore this individual they will fade away into where ever this type of fraudulent garbage goes

[LindaRacine]

Not only will I give you a money back guarantee that I will change your curve permantently but I will take your case FREE OF CHARGE untill you get the results and then you can pay. If you have a child and can not afford the treatment I can accept one more harship case right now. Completely free of charge.
I think that's a very generous offer, and would urge people to give it a try.

I already saw the x-rays on your website, so there's no need to post them here. The reason I (and most of the scoliosis specialists that I know) believe that scoliosis cannot be permanently corrected is that structural scoliotic vertebrae are wedge shaped. Bracing and other treatments may help straighten the curves, but when treatment is stopped, the curves will return to their original degree (or perhaps worse).

--Linda

[LindaRacine]

Since she requested it, I'm posting the private messages:

Here is a progress x-ray of one of our patients and now our assistant in our office. The first x-ray on the left is just before she began CBP treatment. She had a 28 degree scoliosis. The follow up x-ray is after about 120 visits and her scoliosis is reduced to 14 degrees. Since then she has undergone about 35 treatments and we will re x-ray again in another 30 visits. My assistant is living proof. She is happy to speak with anyone that would like to inquire about her experience. She, like many people on this board was considering surgery before I met her. Linda, if you would like to speak to her your self or visit her and many other patients at our clinic and see the treatment, x-rays, etc. you are invited any time. My assistant is only one of many patients that we have treated successfully.

Someone with a 28 degree curve was considering surgery?

What is your health, appearance, self-esteem and quality of life worth? Do you know how much pain a person with a 28 degree scoliosis can suffer from?

Another question, how much pain does one undergo with spinal surgery? How often is it successful? How much does it cost? How much money do you lose by being off work? What do you suppose your quality of life would be on pain pills as your spine continues to degenerate with age and the pain meds no longer work because your body becomes desensitized to them while rotting away your liver, kidneys, and the lining of your intestinal tract?

Once again you are dead wrong! When a patient has a scoliosis of more than 20 degrees, bracing and an orthopedic consultation is mandated so that the rib cage does not encroach upon the heart and lungs, thus leading to death.


Originally Posted by LindaRacine
Read the literature.... no one with a 20 degree curve is at risk for heart and lung problems (which only become significant when curves hit around 100 degrees.

What book are you reading that in?

[nikyergen]

Northlandmed,
If you knew what you were doing, you wouldn't ask Flowerpower to contact you. She just got home with her son from fusion surgery. Everyone knows you don't do chiropractic work of any kind on a fusions at all. That's what scares us about you. You could injure someone terribly by trying to manipulate a fusion. We all also know that surgery is never even considered by a surgeon until it reaches very close to 50 degrees or more.

[nikyergen]

There are hospitals and doctors, which we won't mention in this case, that do all scoliosis care for free for every child that walks in their door, regardless of income. Regardless of the result, the services are free. These hospitals don't limit the number of PRO BONO they do. Everyone they do is PRO BONO. These are world wide know surgeons and hospitals. Why have to worry about paying later, when the bill has added up over 155 appointments, when you don't have to worry about it at all.

[LindaRacine]

My assistant that had the 28 degree scoliosis was considering surgery to stop the progression of her scoliosis. As you know it does not get any better with time.

Take a look at those risk of progression pages that I posted. An adult with a 28 degree curve has almost no risk of progression.

[flowerpower]

Northlandmed, there really is nothing to talk about - my son's condition has been taken care of and he is resting comfortably in his room right now with his beautifully straightened spine. I was being a little facetious in my last post, but the reality is in all my research I have (1) never heard of you, (2) if your treatment is the best approach to permanently correcting scoliosis, rather than easing symptoms and providing a temporary "cure", I certainly would have been knocking on you door.

[nikyergen]

Northlandmed, Why are you on the forum and not treating your patients? If your technique is truly that incredible, then you should be so busy that you don't have time to be on these forums. You were on until very late last night and on early again this morning. So, you spend a lot of time on the internet and not so much time treating patients. You said you would sign off if we could keep punching holes in your stuff and we have. So, do what you agreed to and sign off and don't come back. It isn't me that is negative towards you. This whole forum is. You should have that big picture now. Why don't you PM Expatient and see what the two of you can figure out together.

[LindaRacine]

Enough!! This is clearly no longer a debate, so please just stop. Both of you.

Northlandmed, whether it's manipulation or anything else, if you ever find yourself in a position to treat someone with a recent fusion, I'd urge you to send them packing. It could potentially be very dangerous to treat such an individual.

--Linda

[nikyergen]

Northlandmed, come on. just back off. I think everyone is getting tired of this, even you. Go on with your busy day and help those you think you can help. I am not living miserably and neither are any of my three children that have scolioisis/kyphosis. No one suffers any pain because we have all been treated appropriately. We all have better things to do than this.

[LindaRacine]

I can see that my request was respected ;-)

Listen, we would not allow a surgeon to post to 10 forums encouraging people with small curves to come to him or her for surgery, so I don't believe we should allow people such as northlandmed to do so. Please stop before it goes any further.

--Linda

[LindaRacine]

Hi...

Wanted to update the group.

First, Northlandmed was banned from these forums for posting what came across as spam and for some of her non-constructive responses to users. I'm sure she won't be the last to try such tactics.

Secondly, as many of you know, I tried to recruit Dr. Marc Asher to provide a patient to go through Northlandmed's treatment for free (with a $10,000 bonus if the treatment doesn't permanently reduce the patient's scoliosis curves by at least 50%). Dr. Asher did respond to tell me that he couldn't provide a patient, but that one of his partners would be willing to monitor such a patient. So, if you're in or near Kansas City, and interested, or if you know anyone who might be, please let us know.

--Linda

[nikyergen]

Linda,
THank you for a job well done.
Nikki

[Gigi060]

In my opinion NO! It can reduce some of the pain, because people with scoliosis are constantly having hips and other joints pop out of place. So chiro does sometimes releive some of the side effects to scoliosis, but it doesn't stop the curviture from getting worse and it definetly will not cure it. My scoliosis was found at age 4 and I went to the chiropractor 3x's a week for 1 year, and then 2x's a week for the next year, and once a week for the next 3 years, but it didn't evenslow my curve down, it was curving approx. 5 to 6% each year. Even bracing for 2 years didn't stop my curve from getting worse. But again, I'm no Doctor, I can only tell you that in my case nothing slowed down my curve, and apparently even 2 fusions can't stop the curve because since my second surgery I have already advanced 6% more in 9 months. Hang in there.

Georgian

[Cakedec]

Dear Georgian,

Did your surgeon say why the curve would still be progressing?

Deb

[LindaRacine]

Good news. Katie came up with a patient (11 y.o. girl with a 58 degree scoliosis), who doesn't have insurance. She will treat the child for free, and she will be monitored by Dr. Douglas Burton. As I get progress reports, I'll be sure to update those following this thread.

--Linda

[cherylplinder]

It seem you guys are right , there is no evidance that chiro works . Knowing that I have decided to go once a month for a year. He has given me an exercise program to follow and I intend on following this every day . If between to chiro and exercise I get some pain relief it will be worth it . I know that 7 degress isn't much but for some reason I have a burning pain where the spine is curving back . I have had this befor but it only lasted for a week or so then went away . Now that I'm almost 50 the pain is back and worse !
I know a 48 year old woman in Mississippi with a 20 degree curve. Her pain and symptoms were progressing to the point that she found them debilitating. She got the Spinecor brace a few months ago, and her curve has reduced by 5 degrees. She has gone from almost nonfunctioning, i.e. unable to take a walk, constant pain, to completely functioning. She says she can do anything she wants now. This brace is expensive, but quality of life is everthing. She is impressed.

Just a little info!

CHeryl

[LindaRacine]

I think there are many things that will work to help pain caused by function, especially for those with smaller curves. PT is probably a lot less expensive than a Spinecor brace, and is usually covered by insurance. My personal opinion is that there are a lot of braces that may be good at relieving temporary pain, but we need to be careful about what these braces do to our muscles if they're worn on more than an occasional basis.

--Linda

[Atlas01]

Try upper cervical chiropractic not regular chiropractic.

[Karen Ocker]

Try upper cervical chiropractic not regular chiropractic.


Here is an opinion by the Canadian Pediatric Society cautioning about chiro treatment in kids(and adult cases). Do you want this risk of stroke?

http://www.cps.ca/english/statements/CP/cp02-01.htm#safety%20of%20chiropractic

Karen

[denverbackchic]

You spend your day on here thread to thread bashing chiros on every page. you are telling people that chiropractic casues stroke??? Do you not know the surgical ramifications if the harrington rod????? Do you know that I know a girl who's neck snaped in a minor car accident b/c she had a harrington rod? did you know that 40% of h rod patients are considered handicapped? did you know I know a girl in a wheelchair b/c of h rod? did you know that it only corrects 50% ...and every year after that the curve worsens? my first post on here did NOT bash the h rod, but you got on there and attacked me. did you know I have never had back pain with a high 40 degree curve b/c of chiropractic? i am not just for chiropractic...I am ALL FOR WHATEVER TREATMENTS WORKS FOR PEOPLE. So when people ask about chiropractic why do you bash it? You bash it even when it is unsolicited! That is just stupid! You encourage little girls and their parents to go under the knife never considering their options...discouraging them from trying anything non-surgical that may give them hope! You should tell them that surgery should be the last resort! I never said it should not be done...but you certainly say that about chiro! My significant other is a chiro... and guess what sweetie...he is also good friends with one of the premier back surgeons in the west! they work in tandem to make kids better...and we are not rolling in the dough of unfortunate scoliosis patients like you claim. before you attack those who make it their life's work to help little kids you better look in the mirror and consider your morals. if they want surgery let 'em, if they want chiro let 'em, bracing- bring it on!! But don't crush people's hope b/c you are uneducated. there is NO downside to giving chiro a whirl. But there are bad chiros just like there are bad surgeons...and obviously you must have met one...that is why they need to get referrals like anything else. if you follow a shiney advertisement for a scoliosis quick fix from a chiro OR from an MD you are fooling yourself. the decision to have surgery is PERMANANT and scarey for these parents. don't EVER talk someone into surgery w/out encouraging them to explore their options. chiro DOES IN FACT WORK FOR SOME PEOPLE AND THERE ARE STUDIES TO PROVE IT!!!! just like surgery works for some too. but to call "all" chiros quacks is sick and wrong. Check yourself. To those of you on here reading this all I ask is that you educate yourself. some chiros CAN fix scoliosis...I have seen it, touched it, felt it, lived it. But the decision has to be yours. your body, your decision, not Karen's. read, read...and when you think you are done read some more.

[Alison]

I don't believe thatKaren was telling people that Chiropractic causes stroke. She was simply providing the information given by a professional body, the Canadian Paediatric Society.

Alison

[denverbackchic]

Glad he or she is gone. NOT a representation of chiropractic. And that is my feeling on Karen and her surgery encouraging. I am not ignorant. I know why people are leary of chiropractors...but just like someone quoted "there are med docs wanting to operate on minor curves"...there are also chiros who know nothing about scoliosis who try to treat it. again, get referrals, get referrals, get referrals! This condition it too tough to risk with just anyone. But don't let anyone tell you not to consider your options. I am disturbed by the harrington rod method...but I would still be thrilled to hear if someone had it and it worked for them...LONG TERM...not just in their teen years. just talk people...don't tell others not to post options. I posted about my very positive experience w/chiro and Karen took my head off. just like that northlandmed person...just tune those people out.

[katblack]

I am growing increasingly tired of your posts that are getting increasingly ruder as you go on.

As for your last statement, But the decision has to be yours. your body, your decision,, please start practicing what you you just said because I have now witnessed in several of your posts telling people that they DO NOT want surgery.

Thank you.

[Alison]

Harrington Rods are rarely used these days.

Would you consider 6 years "long term", I had fusion surgery in 1999 (and no it was not with Harrington Rods) and 6 years on my fusion is still 'fused' and I'm very happy with my rods, and their is very, very little I am not able to do. My life is as 'normal' as the next persons

Alison

[denverbackchic]

Yes Alison- I would consider that a success! just as I wrote before. Good for you as I have said over and over I am for anything that works. One thing people keep forgetting is we are on here to learn from each other. I only get upset when grown adults tell kids not to waste their time and just to get surgery. That is not a decision to be made lightly by a stranger online. Additionally, you may not have used them, but H rods are still widely in use, as I personally know a doc here in Denver that does hundreds of them a year.

Katblack- I am sorry you feel that way. I have made countless efforts on here to say that I am open to talking with you, but it is obvious the only thing you want to talk about is surgery success and nothing else. as a matter of fact, this exact thread is dedicated non-surgical treatment...even though my last post openly said I believe in both! but I see you cannot accept that, and anyone with differing opinons from you is "rude." If you don't like me stop following my posts, because I have had other people on here email me thanking me for advice. If it doesn't help you then please leave me alone. as I have told you twice before, you do what works for you and I will do what works for me. That is not "rude", I find your following me thread to thread and bashing me "rude." I have not ONCE told you not to get surgery...as a matter of fact I kindly said I would pray for you for your surgery on the 9th. And you reply to me like this?... I don't think that is fair.

[katblack]

Katblack- I am sorry you feel that way. I have made countless efforts on here to say that I am open to talking with you, but it is obvious the only thing you want to talk about is surgery success and nothing else. as a matter of fact, this exact thread is dedicated non-surgical treatment...even though my last post openly said I believe in both! but I see you cannot accept that, and anyone with differing opinions from you is "rude." If you don't like me stop following my posts, because I have had other people on here email me thanking me for advice. If it doesn't help you then please leave me alone. as I have told you twice before, you do what works for you and I will do what works for me. That is not "rude", I find your following me thread to thread and bashing me "rude." I have not ONCE told you not to get surgery...as a matter of fact I kindly said I would pray for you for your surgery on the 9th. And you reply to me like this?... I don't think that is fair.
I want to talk about surgery success because I am having it. I am asking questions of people who have had it. I tried chiro, it did not work. It was going to be a lifelong treatment plan and that is crap. I need the pain gone now not deal with everyday, spend 3 days a week in an office being manipulated and still be in pain for the rest of my life.

It's not the differing opinions are rude, what I find rude is that you keep telling people to not get surgery. That they do not want it. How do you know what people want or need?

And, I'm not following you thread to thread. I am clicking that link up there that says new posts and reading and replying to them no matter what forum they are in.

You want to pray for me? Go right ahead but my mother has been going to church and praying for me to get relief from this since i was 12 and no god has replied but a doctor did.

[nikyergen]

katback, This person is not worth wasting time on. We had another one just like her during the holiday season. I agree with you. You don't want to have to have treatment the rest of your life, which is the case with anything that might suggest chiro treatment. We took our daughter to the chiro for a year and a half. Her curve never got better, only worse, and she was in continuous pain, like you. She had her surgery and says she would do it over again if she had to. She lives a full and complete normal life. There isn't anything she can't do after having surgery. Just ignore this person, as she will leave people alone. As far as letting a teenager decide what they wanted to do about their back. We let Crystal make the call on her back surgery as she is the one that lives in pain daily, not us. She was pleased with her decision and is now pain free. It was worth it to her.

[katblack]

katback, This person is not worth wasting time on. We had another one just like her during the holiday season. I agree with you. You don't want to have to have treatment the rest of your life, which is the case with anything that might suggest chiro treatment. We took our daughter to the chiro for a year and a half. Her curve never got better, only worse, and she was in continuous pain, like you. She had her surgery and says she would do it over again if she had to. She lives a full and complete normal life. There isn't anything she can't do after having surgery. Just ignore this person, as she will leave people alone. As far as letting a teenager decide what they wanted to do about their back. We let Crystal make the call on her back surgery as she is the one that lives in pain daily, not us. She was pleased with her decision and is now pain free. It was worth it to her.
Nikki,
Being so new to this board, how old was she when she started chiro? How old was she at the time of her surgery?
Can she do all kinds of things now? I want to be able to get back to being able to do things with my kids again.
We used to go to Busch Gardens and ride the rides and go bike riding and all kinds of stuff and for years now, I haven't been able to do anything.
I've lost years of their life as well. It makes me sad.

When I was diagnosed at 12, I was given PT at school 3 days a week. Pulled out of 7th grade class, spent 45 minutes doing exercises and then the pt said after a few months, that my back looked straighter and she was going to recommend signing off on me. She did. My ortho at the time did a set of xrays, said he didn't feel my scoli would progress any further and told my parents to let it go. This was 1982.
I have always had back pain as far back as I can remember and I started seeing chiros on my own when I turned 18 for just the back pain. I had several tell me I had scoli and that they could fix/help me.

I would go for years to chiros and then stop because it wasn't working and I would get fed up but I never realized that it was my scoli causing me all that pain. I would do this (chiro visits off and on) for years until I finally had enough and saw another ortho at age 30. I was devastated to learn how bad I had progressed.

Not once in all those years of seeing chiros did a single one tell me how bad I had gotten. They had been doing xrays at their offices on me. They were doing flexibility tests and all kinds of things but not a single one told me how bad I truly was.
They just kept taking my money and telling me they could help.
After being told I would need chiro for the rest of my life is when I went and saw an ortho and learned the horrible truth.

I'm angry. You have no idea how angry I am.
Years of my life in pain, years being crooked and deformed and I mean, deformed. My surgeon who is doing my surgery called my curves and impairments, severe deformity. I cried. I thought back over all the years of chiros telling me they could help when all along they were seeing the constant progression and deterioration of my spine and nerves and destruction of discs and joints and they did not tell me the truth.

If people want to try chiro, go ahead but don't expect a miracle cure, don't expect to be told the truth about it's progression. they want your money, they want patients for life.

I almost feel like suing the last chiro who basically robbed me $50 a visit, 3x a week for 3 years and didn't help me at all and possibly may have even contributed to the deterioration of my spine, discs, joints and nerves.
I can't imagine that cracking my joints and twisting me the way he did helped with all the nerve damage I have now.
I have nerves that are completely severed going down into my left leg. I lose feeling in it, it turns purple from lack of blood flow.
I can't help but think, what if he did that? What if with all his twisting and cracking and manipulating my back the way he did, caused that?

If a person wants to try chiro, go ahead but get a second opinion, even a third. Don't just take one chiro or even one orthos word for it. Get multiple opinions before deciding any one type of treatment.
I would hate for anyone, especially a teenager, to suffer years and years of pain the way I did thinking all along that it's helping and then to learn the horrible, awful truth someday like I did.

[nikyergen]

Katback, Crystal has had obvious signs of scoli since she was very young. However, her peditrician never thought anything about it. By the time we got a diagnosis on it her curve was quite large. She was 13-14 years old when she started chiro techniques. We did them for a year and a half with nothing but progression, and faster than we thought. When we took her into the ortho at almost 16, her curve had progressed to 82 degrees. She had surgery on 3/15/05. She was in pain everyday, but didn't stop doing the things she enjoyed, like playing high school basketball. She took naproxin, tylenol and ibuprophene daily, which is really hard on a persons body. The day she came out of surgery she told me that she hurt from the surgical site itself, not from her back. She said it was a completely different kind of pain. Today, she is allowed to do anything she wants. The only thing the doctor hasn't released her to do yet, but will this Spring, is going back to playing high school ball. Her biggest complaint, we live in a very cold climate and her back gets cold easily, but she said she'd rather have her back cold than hurt continuously like before. She is 17 now and goes 100 miles an hour. She rides 4 wheelers, bikes, her horse, works her sheep and cattle, swims, runs, has a job at McDonald's, etc., etc., etc. She is doing wonderful.

I feel like you - successful treatment is not something you have to continue to have done the rest of your life. Let's figure one years cost also at your costs $55 x 3 times per week = $165 x 52 weeks = $8,580 per year for the rest of your life and you are 35 and should have another good 45 years left in you. So, $8,850 x 45 years = $386,100. That figure doesn't figure in the cost of inflation as the years go on. I could see that costing well over $500,000 by the time you get to an age you may not use it anymore. Maybe less expensive on the immediate note, but look at the out of pocket in the long run. Pretty expensive treatment, when you have to do it the rest of your life.

Also, Chiropractors are not real medical doctors. They don't go through the training that a medical doctor or specialist has had, therefore aren't really qualified, like a specialist would be. People are fooled because they have Dr. in front of their name.

I'm not against Chiropractors, because we do use them for sports medicine on our kids and, believe it or not, our horses. But, with three kids with scoliosis, we use the Pediatric Orthopedic Specialist. The specialist is trained in the area we need them in.

As with any surgery, there are risks. But, you have to weigh those risks and decide if you are willing to take them. Crystal weighed those risks and was willing to take them. Oh, some might say, why did we let a teeenager make her own decision on surgery. It's her back, her body, and she was the one that lived with the pain daily. She was one miserable kid.

By the way, for the record, the doctor was able to get over 60% correction on her back and she grew two inches from having it corrected. She is no longer the shortest person in our family. Yeah.

Do remember, because you aren't a kid anymore, recovery will be long and hard. You will have to learn how to stand up and sit down differently, picking things up will be different too, bending over will be a whole new experience to you. But, as Crystal says "It's worth it and I'd do it again in a heartbeat."

Hope this helps and sheds some light on your upcoming experience. Remember, each case is different and there are no hard and fast rules on recovery.

Nikki

[katblack]

Thank you. I know it's going to be hard and different and I'm not gonna lie, I'm scared. I know my body has compensated all these years for the twist of my spine and shortness of leg etc. I'm game for it but scared. I will get through it and I know now after finding this site, that I can talk to others that have been where I'm going and that makes it so much easier to deal with. :)

[denverbackchic]

"Also, Chiropractors are not real medical doctors. They don't go through the training that a medical doctor or specialist has had, therefore aren't really qualified, like a specialist would be. People are fooled because they have Dr. in front of their name."


You have got to be kidding me. You haven't a clue. what "other kind of me" was around during the holidays? Someone with a brain?! I can tell you all fear that. Of couse they are not medical docs...they don't wish to be! but they are in school exactly as long, work just as hard, and are just as trained! the only difference is they don't treat with drugs or surgery..."real medical docs" prescribe drugs...which can help people, but can also kill people. this is the ignorance I referenced before and why I am out of here. ...oh and the biggest difference b/t a chiro and an md is they spend their life responding to thankless people like you and justifying their existance...take a walk thru a chiro school and see just what they have to go through for that 8 yr degree.

Katblack, I feel your pain, just wish you would READ. I wished you luck on your surgery a million times now! where's the thanks. why do you keep telling me I am telling you to go to chiro...obviously it did not work for you and you need to move on, but that does not mean other people have to give up on it too. stop crushing people's beliefs, and stop putting words in my mouth.

[nikyergen]

Katblack,
It is normal to be scared. I was actually more scared than Crystal. I pulled a lot of strength from her. But, after it was all said and done, I wondered what I was so worried about. Crystal did finally get scared the night before surgery, but felt at ease after the all the various doctors and nurses came in to see her.

[katblack]

I know it's normal and I really do apologize for being so "chatty"...lol
I talk a lot when nervous.
I just feel so old sometimes.
It's like I'm 35 chronologically, 25 mentally and 80 physically.

I will get through it all especially with the great support and information I have found here with all of you.
Reading peoples blogs where they post their success stories and pictures is awesome. Reading all the success stories here is awesome.
I just want to get it done now.
It's finally happening after all these years. :)

[green m&m]

You spend your day on here thread to thread bashing chiros on every page. you are telling people that chiropractic casues stroke???

There are reported cases of vertebral artery dissection due to chiropractic adjustments. VAD can cause strokes.

Of couse they are not medical docs...they don't wish to be! but they are in school exactly as long, work just as hard, and are just as trained! the only difference is they don't treat with drugs or surgery...

Chiropractic medicine does not have residencies. Yeah they have clinical rotations like any other health profession but not as long as allopathic/osteopathic medicines. So technically MD/DOs train for 3 - 4 years longer.

I'm not posting this in response to you, I'm posting this so the others who read this board will be better informed.

[NewsboysGirl]

I've been reading this thread with interest. I'm a newbie to this site, but not to scoliosis. I was diagnosed with it in 7th grade, and had to wear a Milwaukee brace until I graduated from high school (22 hours/day at first, then eventually just every other night). It ruined my life. Helped my scoliosis, yes, but the social and emotional toll still affects me today. (And I know, better to have been fixed physically so I won't suffer worse things later, but it was still h-e-double-hockey-sticks).

I'm 43 now. Went to a chiro for the first time several months ago for back pain, and they did x-rays. When I finished the brace, my degrees of curvature (I have the S-curve) were in the mid-twenties. Now I'm into the lower thirties. I don't know if the chiro care will work in the long run or not, but I do know that it has improved my flexibility like you wouldn't believe.

I have a very compassionate set of chiropractors, and, of course, they seem extremely knowledgeable. They're not out for my money (which I worried about at first) because, when my insurance ran out on chiro for the year and I said I couldn't afford three times a week anymore, not only did they reduce the amount of my payments, but they're giving me one day a week as a freebie, no charge at all. I truly believe they want to help me get better.

My problem is this: My almost-13-year-old son went with me the other day and they x-rayed him. To my utter dismay, he has the beginnings of scoliosis. They hadn't measured the curves yet, but they're there, it's plain to see. Of course, they want to treat him to prevent it from getting worse. I really like these people and I believe they can do great things. But I also don't want to mess things up for my son. Here's what I'm afraid of -- I'm afraid to go to a regular orthopedist and have them recommend that he wear a brace. I can't imagine having to put him through that kind of social and emotional toll at such a formative stage of his life. I don't want him to have the same kinds of emotional scars I still have. Nor do I want him to have surgery (although at this point it doesn't look bad enough for that). Obviously if it's the only option, I would go with that for him. But I want to explore whatever else there might be before I commit to anything that would have long-term ramifications on his psyche, or involve surgery.

So, surely there are some positive experiences with chiropractic? Or maybe this is the wrong thread (or forum) in which to post this. I do see a lot of chiro-bashing here, and I believe, just as someone said, there are good chiros and there are bad ones, just as there are good MDs and bad ones. And for the person who went through chiro in the 1950s, I would think that, just like all other forms of medical treatment, things have improved since then!

Anyway, not sure really what I'm trying to say, but I want to believe that these people who have been so awesome and helpful to me also have my son's best interests at heart. However, I realize that may not be good enough or the right thing to do. I know that if we go to an orthopedist, he/she is going to totally scoff at chiro and tell us to chuck that whole idea and do whatever they (the ortho) prescribes.

I feel caught in the middle ... can anyone with a balanced opinion offer me any advice?

Thanks!
Aidan's mom

[LindaRacine]

Hi Aldan's Mom....

I'd really like to encourage you to take your son to an orthopaedic scoliosis specialist. I hear what you say about the emotional aspect of bracing. Fortunately, some kids have no problem wearing the brace. Perhaps your son will be one (if he's even a candidate for it). Also, if he does need to be braced, you might want to check out the Spinecor brace. It's completely flexible, and invisible other clothing.

So far, there is zero proof that chiropractic care can halt the progression of scoliosis curves. So, I worry that if your son only gets only chiropractic care, and his curve(s) progress to the point where surgery is necessary, you'll blame yourself. If you believe strongly that it's helping, there's no reason why you can't continue to take Aldan to a chiropractor while he's monitored by a scoliosis specialist.

Good luck!

Regards,
Linda

[NewsboysGirl]

Linda, thanks for your kind reply!

My husband has just made this a moot point by refusing to let the chiro treat Aidan. So ... on to the orthopedist.

AM

[gerbo]

re chiropracters; we went to see one with our 1o year old daughter and I thought the treeatment was useless. However, considering that there are so many different types of chiropracters "out there" trying so many different treatments, i think that it might well be possible that some of them are doing some good, however, hard evidence on this is lacking. So, this is how balanced you'll get from me re chiropracters.

Now, about your son, I understand you are panicking, giving what you've gone through yourself, but really, you need to know exactly what you are dealing with. "the beginning of scoliosis" really can mean anything and nothing; a slight curve in the early teens or below could be temporary or totally stable and of no consequence at all. Why was the x ray made, had you noticed a curving yourself? Is there a noticable rib hump when he bends forward? If so it is worthwhile to take it further and get him at least assessed by an orthopaedic doctor with experience in scoliosis (others in this forum with USA experience will tell you were to go for this). A properly taken and measured xray will give you a baseline, whilst a further xray in 6 months will give an idea of progression, if there is any.

If it looks bad (curve over 25 degree and risk of progression) bracing might get recommended, but don't worry about that now, cross that bridge when you get there. If it isd below that level; nothing lost by trying some chiropractic treatment, as long as you make sure that he gets monitored properly in the mean time.

So, find out what you are dealing with first, and worry after if necessary

gerbo

[rachael]

I am curious if anyone with rods has seen a chiropractor, and to please share your opinions on this.
I saw my general doctor for what I thought was sciatica (pain around the hip and a tingling down my leg) but he said it is muscle related lower back pain. He has referred me to a spine center where I will see either chiropractor to discuss treatment options. It sounds like a team of spine specialist will be available...chiros, ortho surgeons, and physical therapist. I would just like to know if anyone with rods has chiro experience before I go tomorrow so I have some info in case he wants to try to adjust me. I have been to a chiro last year and she actually tried to adjust my spine where the rods are fused, which I don't think is possible. Needless to say, I did not go back to her.
Thanks for any help!

[LindaRacine]

Hi Rachael...

I've had my neck (above the fusion) and my sacrum (below the fusion) adjusted since my surgery. I don't think it would be a good idea to have any adjustment within the fusion mass. As you say, it probably wouldn't do any good, because it hopefully isn't going to move. If it does move, it's because you either aren't fused at one or more levels, or because the chiropractor cracked the fusion.

If the chiropractor knew you had had fusion surgery, and tried to adjust you in an area within the fusion mass, I think that's probably malpractice.

Regards,
Linda

[rachael]

That's exactly what I thought. She also adjusted me above and below. That is what I am expecting from the new chiro I will see, especially below, since that is where my pain is.
Thanks for the info.

[beehappy2005]

i've had two chiropractors and both have been wonderful. in fact (i think i said it somewhere else), my scoliosis did not stop progressing until i started going. i realize, though, that not all chiropractors are created equal. there are some really screwy ones out there. make sure you know what you're getting in to. and try to get a dr. that's 1) worked w/scoliosis patients before and 2) graduated from palmer or logan...