We finally were seen by an Ortho

[lauralee76]

My 6-year old son was diagnosed by his pediatrician in December '06 with two curves, 21 and 14 degrees. We finally had our appointment at Shriners (Chicago) on February 21. They took another set of x-rays and came up with similar degrees (20 and 15). As of right now the doctor wants to take the wait and see approach. We have another appointment set up for August (6 months). I am happy about him not having to wear a brace but scared to death that it is going to change quickly. I do realize I am being crazy - the degrees did not change at all over two months, why would they increase exorbitantly over the next six months? I plan on watching his back but for me visually it goes back and forth on a day to day basis so I am obviously not a good judge. Maybe if I take a clear digital picture of him I can then take monthly pictures and try to compare. I just wish I knew if I was doing the right thing by waiting and watching and not taken action.

[mylittleangel]

Lauralee76,
My daughter was diagnosed w/ scoliosis recently.She is 12yrs old and her curve is at 43 degrees.She has been braced sinced Dec 06 . Right now we are just waiting and watching.We also go to Shriners (St Louis) Our next appt is also in August.We were told we are "buying time"by bracing since my daughter is so petite and underdeveloped she has alot of growing left,So all we are doing at this point is trying to put of surgery as much as possible by having the brace keep the spine under 50 degrees.So that she can do as much growing as possible prior to surgery.Its very scary as a parent we want them fixed now!!Unfortunately it cant.You son as well as alot of growing I have been told by numerous Drs,they dont brace until the curve passes 30 degrees to 50 degrees as it is uneffective outside that range.
Sincerely consider your son blessed, at this point there is hope he will not go passed 30 degrees and nothing will have to be done.My hope is gone.Well it was never there.My daughter was tested in school and it snow balled from there in dec of 06 her curve was read at 35 Feb is was read at 43.You are in good hands at Shriners.Honestly though if it would be of help to set your fears aside I highly reccomend 2nd opinion.I had 3 opinions myself Shriners absolutely leaving my mind at ease with the most confidence that my daughter will recieve the best treatment.
Please keep us posted I know 6yrs old is just a baby and its hard.But from my experience its much harder on us parents then our kids!!Best of luck with everything

[amandap]

Hi Laura,

I know its hard to just sit back and watch and wait. But with 2 curves 21 & 14 that's all you can do. But 6 months does seem like an awful long time in between appointments.

Lorena's largest curve progession was during her growth spurt in the fall of 2005, 3 inches in 4 months at which time she was not braced it was during our watch and wait period. Our initial appointment was in August 05 (26*) our 2nd after her MRI was in September 05 and the x-rays showed a reduced curve(21*) and then in December 05 her curve had jumped up to 42*. I suggest you keep a close eye if you notice that he is growing call your dr and try to get in a bit sooner. I did notice Lorena growing because whe was outgrowing her pants very quickly.

One thing I have come to realize is that these kiddos are so very flexible that one day all looks great and the next day not so great.

My daughter is now 6 and I/we go through the same thing. I have her stand in front of me with both arms at her side and everything looks great, her shoulder blades are perfect her shoulders and ribs look nice an even. Then the very next day it looks like she's tilting to one side and her shoulders are way off center and her shoulder blades are completely crooked. I've discussed this with her physicians and they have all told me the same thing. She has a very flexible spine and depending on what she's doing or what she'd been doing things may have shifted and as long as she's flexible it's going to keep doing the same thing. What is important are her x-rays and trying to measure a scoliosis curve through pure visual is impossible but it is a good way to drive us crazy :eek: !

At Lorena's last visit with Dr. Betz I was horrified because by looking at her she was really really crooked but her x-rays showed ZERO :D change. Dr Betz said all looked good curve was the exact same as the day of her surgery ~ I still look at her back regulary and do my best to not worry :o ~

Also if your son has no other medical conditions have you considered vertebral staping? Since you already go to Shriners it may be a good idea to have Dr. Betz or Dr. D'Andrea see him, they are wonderful and the pioneers in vertebral stapling. Lorena had the stapling done in June 06.

Hope this helps ease your mind a little bit

Amanda

[mariaf]

Hi Laura,

Ditto everything that Amanda said - you can certainly keep an eye on your son's back but don't expect it to always look exactly the same....it never does. Of course, if you were to see a dramatic change, that's another story.

I agree with mylittleangel that you are in excellent hands at Shriners.

Six months, while within reason, does seem a bit long between appointments - but I am guessing it is because the curve is relatively small. If it is going to make you feel better, try moving the appointment up a month or two. It certainly can't hurt.

In the meantime, know that we are all here for you. Please try not to worry youself to death or expect the worst (MUCH easier said than done, I know) - but I have learned that since none of us know what the future holds, it is best to at least TRY to live (and enjoy) one day at a time.

take care,

[caitlyn'smom]

Hi Laura. I'm feeling the exact same as you are. My 7-year old was diagnosed about 6 weeks ago, and it's driving me nuts. We too are "waiting and watching" because her curves are "mild". She goes for her MRI on Monday, and it's very stressful. I find myself trying to "peak" at her back without her noticing! I see changes everyday too and sometimes wonder how much I'm imagining! Anyway, wanted to share....glad someone else is feeling the same way!

[LATigner]

Have you checked out the Spinecor thread on this forum? Many people are having amazing results with younger children and smaller curves. That way you don't have to just wait 6 months and hope the curves didn't get bigger - the Spinecor will reduce the curves that are already there. The watch and wait approach seems to be suggested by most doctors but a lot of times it ends up that the curves get a lot bigger and then you're trying to play catch-up with a hard brace and/or eventually surgery. It might be worth your time to research the Spinecor. There is one Shriners hospital that prescribes it as well as numerous other locations indicated on their website.

My daughter is older (16) and has the Spinecor brace. Because it is completely flexible and hidden, it is very easy for kids to wear. We have a wonderful doctor here in So.Ca. that trained with Andrew Mills. I know if we had been able to have her in a Spinecor where her scoliosis was first diagnosed (age 12), I'm sure we would have had much better results than trying a hard brace first.

[Celia Vogel]

Hi Laura,

I've pasted an article below entitled "Progression Risk of Idiopathic Juvenile Scoliosis during Pubertal Growth", which shows that progression risk is 75% for children with juvenile curves in the 20 - 30 degree range just before the adolescent growth spurt hits - all these children will eventually progress to surgical levels despite conventional bracing. I've also read that double curves always progress. If it were me, I would not take a wait and see approach and would try to correct the curve before the adolescent growth spurt.

The Shriner's in Erie prescribes the Spinecor brace and all care at Shriner's Hospitals is free. If you need help with transportation, there are organizations that can get you there for free as well. I also highly recommend dr. Rivard and dr. Coillard.


http://www.scoliosis-support.org/modules/wfdownloads/viewcat.php?cid=4&start=20









******

[emarismom]

Laura,

I too have been feeling the same way for the past two and a half years. My
daughter (5 at the time, now 8) was diagnosed with scoli, chiari malformation, and Syrinx in Oct. 04. She had brain decompression which corrected the chiari and has greatly decreased her syrinx. Her scoliosis reduced slightly and is now at 23 degrees. Each time I go to the ortho the curve has changed. Over the last two years post op it has ranged from 17-25 degrees. Often I drive myself crazy looking at her wondering if her curve is going to get worse, is there something more I could/should do, etc. I have seen two orthos and both have told me just to wait and watch. It is just so hard.

Celia, the spinec ore brace sounds very interesting and I'm definetly going to research it.

Caitlyn's mom, Good luck on the MRI those are very stressful to go through. I often feel it is easier for my daughter to go through it than it is for me.

[christine2]

catlyn

My daughter is 6 and we just went thru the MRI thing. I was very stressed about the whole thing but it turned out just fine her MRI was normal. Dr Rivard said it would be. He even said that he does not do MRI's on right curves only left. But we decided to do it anyway just for piece of mind.

I find myself constanly look at her back. The poor thing automatically does the scoli stance after showers now because she know I want to see.

You are not alone.

I have to tell you all that the more I read about Dr. Rivard the more impressed I am. He is doing some great research and I think that spinecor is going to play a major role in treating young curves here in the states in the near future. I can not be more happy with our results. In my opinion waiting and watching is not necessary when there is a brace like this. Curves can progress very quickly, once they get beyond a certain point this very "user friendly" brace is not as effective.

Christine

[lauralee76]

Thank you everyone for your responses. I am so confused I wish I knew what the right thing to do was. I want to believe that the Dr Ackman knows best, but I did not get the best feeling from him. I know Shriners is supposed to be tops, but this particular doctor did not seem to be very "caring". He did not offer up any information, I had to ask all the questions. And when he answered, I felt as though he thought scoliosis was such a minimal thing. But I do know that I read into things WAY too much, so that could be part of it. I also know that scoliosis is the least serious thing they treat, but it is currently the MOST serious thing for MY son. According to the Shriners website, scoliosis was not listed under his "Research interests and Specialties". But I am probably reading way too much into that too. My head it just swimming.

Mylittleangel - I do considered my son blessed as he ONLY has scoliosis. I do fear that there is not that much hope that it won't progress - he has juvenile Scoliosis, a double curve (one of which is over 20 degrees), and a LOT of growing left. Everything that I have read leads me to believe it will progress. I know what you mean about it being harder on us. I tried explaining what was going on to Anthony in easy terms, but I doubt he has even thought about it once since then while I think about it daily.

Amanda - I do not know much about vertebral stapling. Is this something that might be considered even though bracing has not yet been recommended? Also, would he still be able to play contact sports (football)?

mariaf - I think I will try to move up the appointment. I just don't think I can stay sane waiting until August. Maybe I will try for a late June appointment.

caitlyn'smom - What are the degrees of Caitlyn's curves? I hope her MRI goes good. I asked the Doctor about having an MRI but he kind of gave me a look and said that they are not needed in cases like this - where nothing else is wrong I guess.

LATiger - I have read the entire SpineCor thread and now keep up with it and any other SpineCor threads. I am very interested in this brace, and if the ortho would have said that he needs a brace, I would have asked for the SpineCor. We are willing to go to the Erie Shriners to get it if needed. I would go to Montreal, but it is not something we can afford.

Celia - Thank you for all the information. Do you know if Shriners would pay for transportation to the Erie Shriners when we are all ready being seen at the Chicago Shriners? Also, do you know how they help out with transportation? We live in WI so flying would be preferred - do they ever pay for airplane tickets?

[Celia Vogel]

Hey Laura,

If you haven't already done so contact your local Shriner's Temple and indicate your intentions to go to Erie Shriners and they will help you with transportation and accommodation costs. When you phone Shriner's, you should ask to speak to the care coordinator for Dr. Sanders and indicate to them that you are interested in the Spinecor brace for your son.

There are various organizations which also provide free transportation to clinic appointments for one parent and child.

Angel Flight America
http://www.angelflightamerica.org

Any Baby Can
http://www.abcaus.org

Miracle Flights for Kids
http://www.miracleflights.org

Northwest Airlines
http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/aircare.../kidcares.shtml

PatientTravel.org Wings for Children
http://www.wingsforchildren.org/pilot.htm



*******

[emarismom]

Cristine2,

I hate to disagree with a doctor, but my daughter has a single thoracic right curve, and she NEEDED the MRI. Her Chiari and Syrinx were extensive. Without the decompression it wasn't a matter of if she would begin to have neurological isses, but when. I also look at Emily's back constantly. I try to do it so she won't notice that I am doing it, and when she sees me, I pretend I'm looking at something else. I don't want her to become worried or self concious of it, but somehow I feel like by doing this I will somehow be able to predict what will happen.

lauralee, insist on the MRI!! My daughter had NO neurological involvement
prior to diagnosis. Nothing else was wrong before the diagnosis, thankfully today there are still no symptoms of the syrinx. The only symptom my daughter has ever had IS the scoliosis.

Celia, I read the Spinecore web page last night. It says that it is indicated for idiopathic scoliosis. Do you know if it is also used in cases of scoliosis due to chiari? Also, I live in Miami, there weren't any doctors on the website located anywhere in Florida. Any suggestions? Would I need to travel to Atlanta?

[christine2]

Emariesmom

Well that is interesting. My daughter also has a single right curve. I am glad I did the MRI. and even happier it was normal.

In my house we talk about scoliosis all the time. For my daughter I think it will make her more comfortable and confident that she does not need to hide the fact that she is wearing a brace. She even got up infront of her 1st grade class (she initiated it) and explained scoliosis and showed off her x rays. I hope I am handling it properly only time will tell!!

Christine

[Celia Vogel]

I read the Spinecore web page last night. It says that it is indicated for idiopathic scoliosis. Do you know if it is also used in cases of scoliosis due to chiari? Also, I live in Miami, there weren't any doctors on the website located anywhere in Florida. Any suggestions? Would I need to travel to Atlanta?

I'll ask Dr. Rivard when I see him next week for our followup appointment. Are you planning to see a chiropractor? If so, steer clear of vestibular testing/rehab, warranties etc. etc. etc.... How close is Texas to Florida??? Dr. Gomez works as an orthotist in Texas and I've heard good things about him. I think GeorgiaMom is seeing Dr. Brian Ouellette and having good success HOWEVER..... he's recommending some pretty weird stuff such as weaning from the brace after six months when the minimum amount of time in the brace should be two years and her daughter is right in the middle of the adolescent growth spurt!!!!!!! :eek: He's then planning to do manual adjustments, i.e., back cracking. How crazy is that??????!! :p


*******

[mariaf]

Emariesmom - I agree with you that an MRI should be done on a young child with scoliosis regardless of whether the curve is left or right. Often the MRI will turn out normal, but many times it will reveal an underlying condition. Just FYI, one member of the spine team at Shriners Philadelphia (Dr. Samdani) is also a neurosurgeon. In addition to being a talented surgeon, he is an extremely caring and compassionate man.

Lauralee - I agree with Amanda that you might want to look into the vertebral stapling, particularly since bracing - if prescribed - would be for several years. It may very well be that at 21 degrees the doctors in Philadelphia would not recommend the stapling at this time, but there is no way to know except to go there for an evaluation.

What I can tell you is that while all Shriners Hospitals offer excellent care, the one in Philadelphia, under the leadership of Dr. Betz, is the best of the best. My son has been a patient there for over three years. Every doctor we have seen has been wonderful and caring.

If you would like to e-mail me, my address is mariaf305@yahoo.com.

take care,

[structural75]

... steer clear of vestibular testing/rehab,

It seems as though the word 'vestibular' has become estranged on this forum due to prejudices toward certain types of practitioners (i.e. - chiropractors - of which I'm not by the way). Regardless of personal feelings about chiropractors, vestibular rehab is still a legitimate field and could/should be carried out by those properly trained to do so.

What is the basis for this advice? Has anyone consulted with a neurologic specialist prior to dismissing its relevance here? Vest. rehabilitation can be very useful for those with chiari malformation... especially when it's been surgically addressed and improved upon. It's no different than when someone has knee replacement surgery and goes into physical therapy to learn to walk properly again under the guidance of a professional. Chiari has a very direct and significant effect on the vestibular system and rehab of such is potentially quite applicable here. Those with chiari develop dysfunctional neurologic patternings that can/will persist in the bodies sensory/motor pathways unless addressed properly. I think it's a good idea to look at the big picture. All of this should entail more than just forcing the spine back into an upright position... there are underlaying cause(s) at play, whether known or unknown, they're worth consideration for the best possible outcome.

What's right for one person may not be for another...

best wishes

[amandap]

Hi Lauralee,

I agree with Maria that although all Shriners Hospitals offer great care the Philadelphia Shriners is Top of the Tops.

All the Doc's we have met are kind and compasionate and they will give your child the best care possible.

Vertebral Stapling is basically an internal brace that allows children to maintain 100% flexibility in their spine unlike fusion and usually kiddos are given the all clear after 30 days. Lorena participates in Gymanstics and Cheerleading and the stapling has not limited her participation.

I honestly am not sure about contact sports like football, Maria may be a better person to answer that question because her son plays sports.

Amanda

[mariaf]

Regarding football (after stapling), you would really have to ask the doctors in Philadelphia.

The drill is that after a few months, there are "no restrictions" - and David plays basketball and baseball - but football is such a contact sport. To be honest, if it were me, I wouldn't let David play tackle football even if the doctors said he could. It would just not be worth the risk to me.

However, again, that's just ME.

best of luck,

[Celia Vogel]

...What is the basis for this advice? Has anyone consulted with a neurologic specialist prior to dismissing its relevance here?

Structural,

I believe we already had a lengthy debate on vestibular rehab/testing and if my memory serves me correctly, I whipped your butt to the moon :rolleyes:



******

[emarismom]

Celia, That would be great if you could ask for me, I'd really appreciate it.
I don't plan on visiting a chiropractor. Considering the Chiari and Syrinx', I
don't believe that anyone should be adjusting Emily's back. It could cause more harm than good.

mariaf, Thanks for the recommendation for a nuerosurgeon. Up until now I have been very happy with the Dr. who did her surgery. God willing, he will never need to do anything more than follow ups. If I ever see "symptoms", then I will get his opinion (as well as the oth NS in his office). They are literaly less than three miles from my house. If there is ever a need for another "brain surgery" I will probably look into The Chiari Institute in NY.

Does anyone have ant suggestions as to possible excercises or other activities that we can do to help prevent progression, other than watching and waiting. It feels as though I am sitting here all this time, just waiting for the scoliosis to get worse. Then when(if) it does get worse, I'll be sitting there regretting not doing more to prevent it.

[structural75]

Celia,

You can't possibly be serious.????? I know I've stepped away from this forum for a couple of months now, but who made you the "medical" expert? Since when is it appropriate to give advice on subjects you know very little about? Reading studies does not constitute an education on human neurophysiology. I believe Dr. Rivard emailed me a response that was posted in that discussion regarding vestibular rehabilitation. You may want to re-visit that one to refresh your "memory" on who's "butt" was where. :rolleyes:

A previous debate with you does not determine fact from fiction... it's still your opinion, as well as my own. In the end, people can consult with the M.D.s qualified to offer professional and accurate input on the subject.

That slanderous remark about vestibular rehab. was unnecessary.

And why even bring up chiropractics? ... It's an absolute contraindication for chiari/syrinx... who in their right mind would use chiro with those conditions present?

[Celia Vogel]

Celia,

You can't possibly be serious.????? I know I've stepped away from this forum for a couple of months now, but who made you the "medical" expert? Since when is it appropriate to give advice on subjects you know very little about? Reading studies does not constitute an education on human neurophysiology. I believe Dr. Rivard emailed me a response that was posted in that discussion regarding vestibular rehabilitation. You may want to re-visit that one to refresh your "memory" on who's "butt" was where. :rolleyes:


I beg your pardon but you consider yourself an expert? Don't make me laugh!!! Dr. Rivard's response was inconclusive and you know it. He was trying to be politically correct. How is he supposed to know what these idiot chiropractors are doing????? To answer your question, I am very serious I whipped your butt good! :cool:



******

[structural75]

I beg your pardon but you consider yourself an expert?
Did I? No, but certainly more knowledgeable and qualified than yourself, without a doubt.

Dr. Rivard's response was inconclusive and you know it.
Yes, I do know it... as was your entire argument. I believe this was his comment:In summary I hope that SpineCor Brace could change the vestibular system but

I don't have any proof yet.

Best regards

Charles H, Rivard M.D.
So why would he hope that it would change the vestibular system if it weren't important??? My argument on the matter was that it was a relevant factor to consider.... which it clearly is. Don't embarrass yourself again Celia.

[Celia Vogel]

I never embarrassed myself in the first place so I don't see how I could embarrass myself again?????! :p You know what....I'll print out the entire letter and show it to him next week and ask him to elaborate. I honestly doubt he would approve of charging patients for these tests and rehab - this is simply not in his character.



******

[structural75]

That sounds great. Maybe you can also ask him if it's in his character to denagrade those seeking a more comprehensive approach than bracing alone.

I'll count on you to return with an honest report on the matter. ;)

[Celia Vogel]

.... My argument on the matter was that it was a relevant factor to consider.... which it clearly is.


Your opening argument on the matter was to promote Scoliosis Systems run by Dr. Deutchman and Dr. Lamantia and how the vestibular system and hence necessity for testing and rehab is an integral part of the Spinecor brace. Your opening arguments were taken directly from the Scoliosis Systems website. I'm sure I can speak for many on this forum when I say patients should not be taken advantage of especially for monetary gain. Report back to Dr. Deutchman that the cat's out of the bag!

*****

[structural75]

Celia,

You are truly unbelievable... I have said time and again that I am not a chiropractor.

My initial argument had absolutely nothing to do with the Chiropractors in NYC. It was simply to clarify your smearing and slandering of the practice of vestibular testing and rehabilitation as a legitimate field of medical study and practice. It was your prejudice against chiros that led you to denigrate anything that was remotely related to them or being utilized by them. Vestibular Rehabilitation is a medical practice performed first and foremost by M.D.s, those chiros in NYC just happen to be utilizing it as well. My "opening" arguments were deleted from this forum as they were directed at you and your brash slew of ignorant comments on the matter. Yes, those were quotes from the Sc. Systems website, is there a problem with logical reasoning?

No, I never stated testing was an integral part of the spinecor brace... I said the spinecor was effective in part because it permitted functional use of the spine while wearing it, "hence" thereby having an inevitable impact/effect on the vestibular system (should I remind you it is the center for equilibrium, balance, coordination, etc.).

I'm sure I can speak for many on this forum when I say patients should not be taken advantage of especially for monetary gain.
You can speak for me on that matter as well, ... I agree completely! I have absolutely nothing to gain by supporting comprehensive and intelligent approaches to scoliosis treatment.

Report back to Dr. Deutchman that the cat's out of the bag!
Never spoken to the man.

Celia, I'm curious... were the first people to use the spinecor brace charged for their Dr. consults/visits and for the cost of the brace? If so, how could they do such a thing without extensive studies to back up its efficacy? How could they charge people for something that was experimental, and still is to some degree? Vest. Rehab was in use in the medical community for a variety of other conditions long before those chiros began using it. Contrary to your belief, the chiros did not 'invent' vestibular rehab and testing, M.D.s did.

How quickly I remember why I stopped visiting this forum... :(

[Celia Vogel]

I'm not even going to revisit that discussion because it's there and I don't want to repeat myself. :rolleyes: You are obviously an agitator and I have better things to do with my time. I know for a fact when the first Spinecor study was underway, people were not charged for the brace. What is at issue here is you claiming that vestibular testing and rehab in the context of scoliosis treatment is "logical reasoning" and this is where I and many others in this forum beg to differ.

Here are your opening remarks in the other thread:


Sorry folks that this is so long, but it's concise and makes a point. It's certainly more in depth and comprehensive than anything else that's being offered. I know you're [Gerbo] a spincor user, ...Are you really against this vestibular rehab? It is in fact an integral part of the premise behind the spincor brace as noted by the Doctors themselves

Which doctors? Dr. Deutchman? :D


Here is Dr. Rivard's Reply:


Many studies, mostly by the Japenese people, are telling us that the scoliosis patient are showing some abnormality in their vestibular system, but no body up to now can tell us if it's a consequence or one of the aetiologic factor.of the scoliosis. Dr Lamiantia in New-York is doing vestibular testing on all his scoliosis patient and we are still waiting him to gave us some results of those exam that he is doing for two to three years now.

In summary I hope that SpineCor Brace could change the vestibular system but I don't have any proof yet.

Best regards

Charles H, Rivard M.D.

Dr. Rivard states that he hasn't recieved results on this phoney baloney study that has been going on for three years. How long does a study take to complete??????! Nowhere does it state he's aware patients are being charged or that vestibular testing/rehab is an integral part of the spinecor brace as you stated in your opening remarks above!!!! This whole thing is purely a profit making scheme for the chiropractors involved - if you need further clarification, please speak to Braceguy who worked directly with the chiropractors in question.


*******

[structural75]

Your conspiracy theories are tiresome... How about the folks undergoing this treatment who have seen positive results? Why are you not mentioning their experiences? Selective reasoning???

I don't support scams either... but I also wouldn't condemn an entire field of medicine because of a few bad apples.

It's funny, one minute you'll argue a study isn't comprehensive enough, now you're arguing it's too comprehensive and long term. Give me a break. The only way we'll know if something carries long-term benefit is if we do long-term studies!!! Aren't the Montreal Dr. still doing studies on the spinecor??? & in the meanwhile charging people good money with only short-term knowledge of its effect?

Do what you do and let others be!! I'm tired of you bad mouthing other methods and approaches!

[Celia Vogel]

Hello!!! The Spinecor brace has been around since the early part of the 1990's and there *is* a study showing it's remarkable effectiveness!!!! Plus quite a few people in this forum are having equally remarkable results. Which patients are having remarkable results with vestibular rehab????? :confused:



*******

[structural75]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious... I support the use of the spincor brace. Does treatment stop with forcing a curve back into place??? I don't believe it's that simple, and if you do then you've severely underestimated the human body. There is obviously some reason for the spine developing lateral curves in the first place.... what makes you think you can just push it back into place, ignore the cause(s) and expect it to stay put??? And as evident by the failed attempts of many, it is clear that bracing alone is not sufficient in most cases. What I have always suggested is a comprehensive approach... never replacing bracing with vest rehab alone, ...nor is it appropriate for everyone! Am I talking to a brick wall here... ? How many times do I have to clarify that point.

I saw a poll done on another scoliosis forum (http://vote.sparklit.com/poll.spark/924046)...

If you used the SpineCor brace for scoliosis more than 2 years ago, please rate the efficiency? [87 votes total]

It reduced my curves (13) 15%
It stabilized my curves (10) 11%
My curves progressed so I needed surgery (20) 23%
My curves progressed (15) 17%
I was unable to complete the treatment (6) 7%
No effect (23) 26%


Members of the forum were polled about the effectiveness of the spinecor for them. Although I think it's a great improvement as far as braces go, the poll clearly shows room for drastic improvement. I'm glad a select few members of this forum are benefiting, but what about the thousands of people who aren't sharing their experiences on this forum? Do they factor into your statistical analysis at all?

We can't possibly think that an archaic and oversimplified method such as bracing is the sole answer? Can we? Is it really possible for you to put blinders on to the potential etiologies behind this condition? Is the body just a stack of bones to you? What are the consequences of forcing the body against it's biophysical will without addressing the influences behind it?

Consider those retorical questions since I'm certain you'll blow them aside anyhow.

Also, here was an interesting article with your four favorite Dr.s together.
http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/tcj/2005/may/j.htm
It seems as though the makers of spinecor have partnered with chiropractors to provide training in the fitting/distribution of the braces. Sounds kind of fishy to me... :rolleyes: Could the spinecorporation be out to make a HUGE profit here??? Could be, you never know.... ????? How do explain the agenda of the spinecorporation in this matter Celia? Would the good Dr.s in Montreal really partner up with two chiropractors that they believed to be frauds? :rolleyes: ;)

...vestibular testing and rehab in the context of scoliosis treatment is "logical reasoning" and this is where I and many others in this forum beg to differ.First, if you folks don't believe that scoliosis effects, or is effected by the nervous system, well.... :eek: . Secondly, since when did you and "many others" receive your training in neurophysiology to become the definitive voices on the subject?

Give it all a rest and do what's right for you. Leave others alone in their pursuits if you don't agree and quit denigrating others.

[Celia Vogel]

My deepest, sincerest apologies!!!!!! I never realized that spinning around in a chair while focusing on ones thumb and being charged $1,500 for such exercises was legitimate treatment. :mad: Not only is it asinine, it's beyond comprehension!! Save the rhetoric for your chiropractic friends . Who are you to say that scoliosis has a neurologic cause ?????? There are many MANY theories to as to it's etiology and neurologic is not up there as the leading cause. I also believe I have a right to voice my opinions, if you don't like it.....TOOOOOO BAAAAAD!


Oh yes....and let's not forget the article was written by the chiropractor, Dr. Lamantia - certainly not an objective expose on the topic! :p :p The picture was probably taken when the chiropractors were up in Montreal for the Spinecor training - the office looks very VERY familiar to me ;)






**********

[structural75]

What is the leading cause of ideopathic scoliosis Celia? Enlighten me, please. And how does that "leading cause" help the rest of the folks without that "leading cause" as their etiology? Just because someones etiology is not the "leading cause" you think it's worthless to spend time addressing it??? What's wrong with you?

I never realized that spinning around in a chair while focusing on ones thumb and being charged $1,500 for such exercises was legitimate treatment. Not only is it asinine, it's beyond comprehension!! You haven't the slightest clue, do you. Are you back on these ignorant statements again?

Who are you to say that scoliosis has a neurologic cause ?????? :eek: I'm educated!!! Should I post the numerous cases of ideopathic scoliosis caused by neurological deficit disorders (CP, MD, MS, etc.)? Wise up Celia!

Oh yes....and let's not forget the article was written by the chiropractor, Dr. Lamantia - certainly not an objective expose on the topic! The picture was probably taken when the chiropractors were up in Montreal for the Spinecor training - the office looks very VERY familiar to me Kind of like your "objective expose on the topic".... ???? It was a business deal, not a matter of persuasive writing. Here you go again with any angle possible on a conspiracy. Should I email Dr. Rivard again to clear things up for you? Is it fraudulent to get a picture taken in their office? (I'm glad to know you can remember what the office looks like. :confused: )

Why would Dr. Rivard "hope that SpineCor Brace could change the vestibular system" if it's a bunch of crap as you say it is?? Do you know something the Dr. doesn't? Maybe you should teach him what you know about the vestibular system, he might not be aware of your privileged knowledge on the subject and keen observations. You certainly sound like you know what you're talking about to me. :rolleyes:

[Singer]

You two remind me of those screwball comedies from the '30s when the guy and the girl fight and hate each other and then end up falling in love..... :cool:

[Celia Vogel]

I beg your pardon? :eek: :D Fall in Love?????! *keels over dead* I'm glad you find it humorous....come to think of it I did enjoy my last post and it obviously upset Structural to no end because he did use the "CRAP" word :D He is an agitator and thrives on confrontation not only with me but with other members on this forum i.e., Linda Racine, Karen Ocker, Gerbo, Cheryl, Macky etc. etc. In general, it's not pleasant being the recipient of mindless attacks but I do try to have fun and make light of the situation along the way. ;)


*****

[structural75]

Celia,

In your previous post you asked me:
Who are you to say that scoliosis has a neurologic cause ??????
In a letter from Spincor Docs to another member on this forum they told her this:
In theory SpineCor should be able to correct scoliosis caused by Chiari Malformation and other neurological defects once these have been successfully resolved.

Again, a little education on the matter and maybe you wouldn't be so quick to discredit the possibilities.

it's not pleasant being the recipient of mindless attacksYou can say that again.

You're quite the passive aggressive... with your indirect remarks about me. And it always seems to happen that way when you don't have an intelligent response to the points that I've made. At least I'm decent enough to confront you, and others, directly on the matters at hand. And it just so happens that those folks you mentioned dominate this forum, making it difficult if not impossible for anyone with a different perspective/experience to offer something to others. I'm not the first person who has been ruthlessly swarmed and attacked by you all... look through the archives and you'll see others who have experienced your dictatorial wrath. Anytime someone comes on here to share their success with something other than surgery and bracing alone, you folks jump in to put your negative disclaimers in (and some of those folks you mentioned have actually recommended following the DR.s orders to '"wait and watch"!!..that should be considered negligence/malpractice!). It's quite clear on this forum, and the greater world at large, that nothing is perfect, successful or relevant all the time.

I only 'agitate' those who need a wake up call. Besides, you see it as agitation and I simply see it as clarifying matters. The last thing anyone needs here are 'pseudo-doctors' giving inaccurate information/advice based on a shallow understanding of the human body (i.e.- reading studies, statistics, etc.). Options for many people here are already limited, why narrow that down even further with uneducated opinions. You certainly have a right to your opinions and to share your experiences, but it is clear that you are not qualified or knowledgeable to be giving certain advice.

[Jazzeve]

I completely understand your fears on this and that haunting question of "how fast can it progress". My daughter, almost 6 years old, remained stable for the first year since diagnosis, showing only tiny increase. Then at a recent 5 month check she had gone from 19 and 12 to 26 and 20. It was quite a shock since I had been watching her back and felt it still looked the same. As you can tell from all the threads on this site, there are so many varied experiences and outcomes all the possible "what ifs" can become overwhelming.

I hope you are happy with your experience at Shriner's. I have heard so many good things about them. We have just applied to Shriners in Minneappolis and I am so hopeful that we get accepted.

I will be following your experiences since we are both somewhat Midwesterner's and have children of the same age going through this.

Best wishes to yu and your family.

[Mom37]

I am sure it is driving you crazy to wait and watch. I recommend a second opinion. There are so many doctors and opinions out there. I know it is tough. We did go to 3 opinions for my daughter who is now needing surgery. I personally do not care for the wait and see approach. Although that may be sound advice in some cases, some would agree we need to be doing something for our sanity. Keep busy to not go stir crazy. We did go to Shriners in Erie, PA has a surgeon, Dr. Sanders, who does bracing, including Spinecor, Boston, and surgery. They do have help with transportation (shuttle) from Erie airport to the hospital, and adults and patient staying overnight at the Erie Hospital. They did not offer to provide us with other transportation. Best wishes to you and your child!