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scoli_mom
07-03-2006, 08:19 PM
My 11 year old daughter was just recently diagnosed with a double major curve, not yet in a brace. Her curve is at 26 degrees and we are on a four month observation. I was wondering if anyone has used cranial sacral massage with good results? Thank you!

3Curves
03-01-2007, 10:57 PM
I have just started with an Osteopath and she gave me such a massage. I'm 33 and have had Scoliosis since I was 13. She said the bones in the skull have been pulled because of the twistng below. The aim is to release them back to where they would be. Have you had the massage?
After leaving the massage I have felt a great sense of release in the L2 region where she worked on. I have more movement on the tight side of my trunk now. Really not sure how long term all this will be, but will make the most of it.

structural75
03-08-2007, 11:57 AM
Hi Folks,

Cranial-Sacral work is a specialized branch of Osteopathic Manipulation, not related to massage whatsoever. Although many massage therapists undergo training in a very simplified version of Cranial Osteopathy commonly known as cranial-sacral therapy.

It's influence/affect can be either primary or secondary to the scoliosis, but either way the effect of scoliosis on the dural membrane and cranial bones is indisputable none-the-less. It can often be very helpful for those with scoliosis in one way or another. I believe it to be a very relevant aspect to this condition. (consider the frequent combination of chiari and scoliosis as an example)

Best of Luck,
Structural

yellowbelly
03-20-2007, 09:22 PM
Yellow
Hi! I had cranial sacral massage about four times when I first went to the chiropractor. I never knew exactly what the purpose was only that I actually felt my skull rotating and I felt like I was a clock being set. I knew when he was finished because my skull stopped moving. yellowbelly

gerbo
03-21-2007, 03:53 AM
If you expect a stabilising action or actual improvement you need to be aware that there is absolutely no evidence that is has any effect on scoliosis whatsoever, although practitioners selling this type of treatment would make you want to believe otherwise. You could waste lots of time and effort for no real benefit. Reversely, if you want to do "something" whilst you are waiting (which inevitably will make you very anxious) there won't be any harm in "trying", but don't have your hopes too high.

structural75
03-21-2007, 10:58 AM
http://www.upledger.com/newsletters/nothing.htm
Possibilities exist... despite the lack of studies.

And no, these people are not all out to take your money....http://www.upledger.com/UF/pressRelease.php9.htm

LindaRacine
03-21-2007, 11:57 PM
http://www.quackwatch.com/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=upledger

structural75
03-22-2007, 07:53 AM
OOOHhhhh boy. here we go again... Should I post info on all of the botched surgeries and MD malpractice suits.....? They're all over the place! Quaqwatch ........ consider your source linda.

Any chance you get, huh folks?

gerbo
03-22-2007, 08:09 AM
This apparantly comes from a book written by mr Upledger; do you think this is incorrectly reported, because if this is true this man would have to be seriously weird?


Chapter 2 of his book, CranoSacral Therapy: Touchstone of Natural Healing, he describes, how he discovered and communicates with what he calls the patient's "Inner Physician":

By connecting deeply with a patient while doing CranioSacral Therapy, it was possible in most cases to solicit contact with the patient's Inner Physician. It also became clear that the Inner Physician could take any for m the patient could imagine -- an image, a voice or a feeling. Usually once the image of the Inner Physician appeared, it was ready to dialog with me and answer questions about the underlying causes of the patient's health problems and what can be done to resolve them. It also became clear that when the conversation with the Inner Physician was authentic, the craniosacral system went into a holding pattern [6].

The chapter goes on to describe Upledger's care of a four-month-old French baby who was "as floppy as a rag doll." Although the baby had never been exposed to English, Upledger decided to see whether the baby's "Inner Physician" would communicate with him via the craniosacral system:

I requested aloud in English that the craniosacral rhythm stop if the answer to a question was "yes" and not stop if the answer was "no." The rhythm stopped for about ten seconds. I took this as an indication that I was being understood. I then asked if it was possible during this session for the rhythm to stop only in response to my question and not for other reasons, such as body position, etc., The rhythm stopped again. I was feeling more confident. I proceeded [6].

Using "yes-no answers," Upledger says, he pinpointed the problem as "a toxin that was inhaled by the mother . . . over a period of about two-and-a-half hours while cleaning the grease off an antique automobile engine" during the fourth month of pregnancy. After "asking many particulars" about what he should do, Upledger was told to "pump the parietal bones that form a large part of the roof of the skull, and to pass a lot of my energy through the brain from the back of the skull to the front." As he did this, Upledger frequently checked with the baby's "Inner Physician." After about an hour, Upledger says, the baby began to move normally [6].

structural75
03-22-2007, 11:24 AM
Gerbo,
You're quite selective in choosing the most obscure examples within the profession.

Dr. Kenneth Salyer, a prominent craniofacial surgeon, referred Akmed and Mohammed Ibrahim to John Upledger and his associates for cranial evaluation and treatment prior to surgery to separate the conjoined twins at their skulls. (this was a famous case, do you remember it?) They underwent his care for more than a year before the surgeons agreed to do the surgery, deeming they were now stable enough to have the best chance for success. The surgery went better than expected and the boys are doing fantastically well. So why would a prominent craniofacial surgeon refer the boys himself to this supposed "quack"?


Dr. Upledger's interest was whetted early in his career. While assisting a neurosurgeon in the removal of plaque from a patient's spinal cord membrane, he observed that the membrane kept pulsating, in spite of his best efforts to keep it still. This was his first observation of the craniosacral rhythm. After many years of research on the system, he established the Upledger Institute in 1985 in Palm Beach Gardens, Fla. to more effectively transfer his research findings to consumers. Since then, more than 38,000 practitioners have been trained in craniosacral therapy, including osteopaths, medical doctors, chiropractors, psychologists, dentists, physical therapists, acupuncturists and massage therapists.


Mainstream medicine has criticized craniosacral therapy, sometimes vociferously, primarily because the underlying theory challenges many classical anatomical assumptions. For example, Dr. Stephen Barrett (a.k.a. - Mr. Quackwatch himself), an outspoken critic of alternative treatments, states "the theory behind craniosacral therapy is erroneous because the bones of the skull fuse during infancy and cerebrospinal fluid does not have a palpable rhythm."1 However, this dogma is not universally accepted. For example, in parts of Europe, it is taught that the skull bones do, indeed, have movement potential. Dr. Upledger feels that the axiom about fused skull bones may have arisen from the routine practice of using highly preserved cadavers for anatomical examinations. He postulates that fresh, unpreserved sutures (the skull bone edges) are full of dynamic tissue, nerves and blood vessels, consistent with a flexible system allowing some movement. In contrast, the sutures from old preserved skulls appear calcified. Dr. Upledger also believes that most neurosurgeons have not observed the craniosacral rhythm because most surgery penetrates the membrane barrier required to maintain the rhythm.
Just because this Stephen Barrett doesn't have adequate skill levels to perceive this himself doesn't mean he's right.


One individual, who has received therapy in the Upledger program, is "Jackie." He became an incomplete quadriplegic after a 1990 car accident. Jackie has been treated several times at the facility and emphatically states that, "they have helped me more than anyone ever has before, I now have much more feeling and muscle control." Jackie now walks without the full leg brace previously needed. He is a man who likes to "work hard and play hard," and his improved trunk muscles, critical for balance, allow him to use a three-wheel motorcycle once again. He remembers very distinctly the moment on the therapy table that he first regained some feeling in his left hip: "The tingle felt like the sensation when you try to move a leg that has gone to sleep."

gerbo
03-22-2007, 11:41 AM
no, no, it was you who choose mr Upledger
the most obscure example which i thought implicated that you saw him as a shining example and beacon of good practice.

So, do you think that quote from that book by mr Upledger was correct?? I am sure that you agree that whilst writing that (if he did) he'd lost it a bit....????

do you provide this therapy yourself?

Celia
03-22-2007, 11:57 AM
Oh man.... I'm laughing so hard, I can't contain myself!!!! :D :D I really think this would be a good Monty Python skit, don't you????


Chapter 2 of his book, CranoSacral Therapy: Touchstone of Natural Healing, he describes, how he discovered and communicates with what he calls the patient's "Inner Physician":

By connecting deeply with a patient while doing CranioSacral Therapy, it was possible in most cases to solicit contact with the patient's Inner Physician. It also became clear that the Inner Physician could take any for m the patient could imagine -- an image, a voice or a feeling. Usually once the image of the Inner Physician appeared, it was ready to dialog with me and answer questions about the underlying causes of the patient's health problems and what can be done to resolve them. It also became clear that when the conversation with the Inner Physician was authentic, the craniosacral system went into a holding pattern [6].

The chapter goes on to describe Upledger's care of a four-month-old French baby who was "as floppy as a rag doll." Although the baby had never been exposed to English, Upledger decided to see whether the baby's "Inner Physician" would communicate with him via the craniosacral system:

I requested aloud in English that the craniosacral rhythm stop if the answer to a question was "yes" and not stop if the answer was "no." The rhythm stopped for about ten seconds. I took this as an indication that I was being understood. I then asked if it was possible during this session for the rhythm to stop only in response to my question and not for other reasons, such as body position, etc., The rhythm stopped again. I was feeling more confident. I proceeded [6].

Using "yes-no answers," Upledger says, he pinpointed the problem as "a toxin that was inhaled by the mother . . . over a period of about two-and-a-half hours while cleaning the grease off an antique automobile engine" during the fourth month of pregnancy. After "asking many particulars" about what he should do, Upledger was told to "pump the parietal bones that form a large part of the roof of the skull, and to pass a lot of my energy through the brain from the back of the skull to the front." As he did this, Upledger frequently checked with the baby's "Inner Physician." After about an hour, Upledger says, the baby began to move normally [6].


*****

structural75
03-22-2007, 12:27 PM
Structural: You're quite selective in choosing the most obscure examples within the professionI was referring to the 'case' in point you selected, not the Dr. himself. And yes, he is the equivalent of an MD, not the pseudo-doctor Stephen Barrett (a.k.a. - psychiatrist) who heads quackwatch. Since when does a Dr. of psychiatry become the authoritative and reputable expert on physical medicine????

Have you bothered to read anything else he has written in the book, or other books, medical journals, research papers, clinical studies, etc.... ? Or would that challenge your point too strongly?

So do you have any comments on my reply to your previous post? Or does it not serve your purpose here to respond to them. Any response to the credibility of this man as seen in the examples I gave? Or do you refuse to acknowledge that a prominent world-renowned surgeon gave a referral to him for an extremely rare and complicated case. Is that what prominent surgeons do? Pawn off their career topping cases to quacks?

Celia,
As usual, your post serves no purpose other than to antagonize and display you're ignorance on the topic. If you base your assumption about all of this on what Gerbo and Linda are posting.... well that says enough. They are known for revealing only that which will prove their points.

Linda did this not too long ago on 'genetic factors' by posting an outdated study when their was a larger follow-up to that study done four years later showing the opposite conclusion that she was trying to make. Selectivity doesn't make for good advice.

If you people consider yourselves impartial and objective (far cry) then continue your 'research' and present both sides.... As there are countless cases in which this work had positive and sometimes dramatic effect on a variety of conditions when everything else failed to provide results. (kind of sounds like bracing... sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it's minor effect and sometimes it's drastic)

gerbo
03-22-2007, 12:39 PM
ok, fair enough, you choose the man, I choose his book, that seems fair enough. Question remains do you think that quote from that book by mr Upledger was correct?? I am sure that you agree that whilst writing that (if he did) he'd lost it a bit....???? Once I have that clear I am happy to look at any challenges you give me.

ps; do you do this cranio-sacral therapy??

structural75
03-22-2007, 01:12 PM
Gerbo,
What this excerpt fails to clarify for you is the cranial mechanisms behind which he was working with. Notice the book has more than one chapter. The effect of the toxin on the infant's brain/neurologic development and its consequential effect on various membranes, ventricles, etc.. What your not reading about is the 'scientific', anatomical and craniobiomechanical palpations that he is experiencing and evaluating during the treatment. Is it possible to communicate intelligently with someones system... absolutely. Surgeons aren't accustomed to this for MANY reasons, one being that a scalpel is an inanimate object of course and is not designed to 'communicate' as the human hand is capable of... nor is that it's intended purpose.

You may, of course, refuse to respond to my previous points, but whether you choose to respond or not and whether you can understand or appreciate what he is talking about doesn't make your point. I presented those examples and descriptions because I felt they are ones you can relate to, can you not?. I don't expect you to understand what he's discussing in that excerpt from his book.

p.s. - No, I do not per say... but let's just say where one membrane in the body 'stops', another begins. There are very few beginnings and ends to the soft tissue body. By the first 6 weeks of embryological development the connective tissue body is established, in which all bones, muscle cells, nerves, blood vessels and organs find their appropriate homes within. Distinguishing parts as surgeons do is a reality of the knife, not the body.

Celia
03-22-2007, 01:22 PM
Gerbo,

Is this doctor still practicing or has he been committed to an insane asylum????? :D


*****

gerbo
03-22-2007, 01:26 PM
Although the baby had never been exposed to English, Upledger decided to see whether the baby's "Inner Physician" would communicate with him via the craniosacral system:

I requested aloud in English that the craniosacral rhythm stop if the answer to a question was "yes" and not stop if the answer was "no." The rhythm stopped for about ten seconds. I took this as an indication that I was being understood. I then asked if it was possible during this session for the rhythm to stop only in response to my question and not for other reasons, such as body position, etc., The rhythm stopped again. I was feeling more confident.

so if this indeed an true quote, you are really saying (with a straight face and uncrossed fingers) that this all makes sense to you?

with regards to your question what i think of a surgeon referring somebody to a person who can write that kind of stuff; i think he must have been out of his mind (prominent or not).

Anything else you would like me to comment on?

structural75
03-22-2007, 01:56 PM
Anything else you would like me to comment on?
No Master Gerbo... You've done a convincing job at revealing the truth, that will be all. It is clear that you have a firm understanding of the work. Who wouldn't after reading one excerpt from one book? Why look any further before casting ignorant false assumptions? Who needs medical journal, peer reviewed information or conventional research when you've got a few abstract paragraphs?

Do I ask my clients' "inner physician" questions? No, I do not. But I do 'listen' to their system and respond accordingly... which is more than I can say for most MDs who are telling their patients that the pain is in their heads and scoliosis does not cause pain, etc.... 'But here's an injection to ease the symptom, as far the cause... well sorry, can't help you with that because I don't see one'. Or try nerve ablation... that's a brilliant idea.. burn the nerve as to cease ALL sensation and receptivity to a region only to let the problem get worse in the meantime... but at least they won't feel it as it's happening until the nerve grows back. ????? If these are the kinds of "scientific methods" that you feel are reasonable and of sound mind.... :eek: Is this 'health' care or 'disease' management?


Gerbo: with regards to your question what i think of a surgeon referring somebody to a person who can write that kind of stuff; i think he must have been out of his mind (prominent or not).Apparently being out of ones mind was a prerequisite for all involved in saving these children's lives then. Good thing convention took a back seat for this one.



p.s. - Thanks for the comments on the other two points I had mentioned... nice to know you conveniently skip over matters that don't serve you well.

structural75
03-22-2007, 02:00 PM
Celia: Is this doctor still practicing or has he been committed to an insane asylum?????Wouldn't private messaging be a more appropriate place for wasteful comments like these?

structural75
03-22-2007, 02:19 PM
Cranial osteopathy is, perhaps, one of the most misunderstood practices in osteopathic medicine, even as studies on its outcomes and underlying mechanisms continue to expand the knowledge and effectiveness of the field.

The term "cranial osteopathy" is the preferred term, though it is often used interchangeably with what is popularly known as "cranial-sacral therapy."..........................................







Dr. Grimshaw knows cranial osteopathy’s effectiveness because he has seen it first hand. One of Dr. Grimshaw’s most successful cases involved a six-year old girl who had been referred to his clinic by an outside physician. Suffering from chronic headaches and sinus infections, the girl had had 14 surgeries over the course of her life without much improvement. Dr. Grimshaw found tremendous restrictions in her cranial-sacral system, removed as many as he could, and the girl’s sinuses began to drain and her headaches lessened. Even the girl’s teachers noticed the dramatic improvement.

Despite successes like these, it is clear that cranial osteopathy is still a minority practice in what is still a minority profession. As Dr. Briner explains, although the field is extremely promising, it is relatively slow to grow because "there aren’t an overwhelming number of NIH grants to study this kind of thing. Most of the relevant studies have been conducted by a small group of very determined researchers."

http://www.com.msu.edu/communique/spring2002/cranial.htm

structural75
03-22-2007, 02:34 PM
Aahhhh... I see where you pulled that excerpt from, quackwatch! Your 'educating' yourself on a website dovoted to discrediting anything that moves! The fact that you turn to stephen barrett for information is outrageous... many credibility points lost on that one. Some of his info is accurate, but some is also as outdated as he is. He apparently doesn't like to follow up with the recent studies that offer confirmation to what he proposes as "false".

debigolebiwski
03-22-2007, 02:52 PM
What's happened to the forum? We could meet here to talk among each other and get information from our experiences but now, it has become a boxing ring.

Incidentally, I was trying to post to the Spinecor thread and it was completely deleted while I was in the process. Check this out.......
http://www.scoliosis.org/resources/medicalupdates/spinecor.php

Braceguy did have alot of useful information, he never ever had anything bad to say other than voicing his opinion. He had witnessed things that he felt were inappropriate.

I don' t know anything about this cranial thing, but if there's a brace out there that might possibly help me with these terrible spasms, I am interested. I am not a doctor by a long shot, but I've suffered for 49 years with scoliosis and I'm willing to try anything. As for it (Spinecor) failing, well, the milwaukee brace I wore for 15 years of my life failed, too. But, I'm not looking for correction. I only ask for relief. Right now, I am wearing this metal/plastic body jacket to support my upper torso. My husband has grown cold because I'm wearing it. If there is anything out there that "might" help this istuation, I am willing to try it. The spinecor would not be as visible as this jacket. I have lost my muscles now in my back. I cannot function now without support of some kind. So please don't bash anyone's opinions. And don't belittle the hopes and dreams of the people in here. We get enough abuse outside this forum.

God Bless all of you who have children in any brace. You have no way of knowing how bad they honestly feel. The loss of self-esteem will remain with them for the rest of their lives. Do what you can for them while you can. I thanks Braceguy for talking to me. He talked with me when no one else would listen.

So, Drs, shame on you for trying to make this forum such a disgraceful place. If you don't have patients right now, research the Spinecor and come back and talk with those of us who are worried and scared dealing with scoliosis.

I am a cancer survivor. This scoliosis has effects that even cancer doesn't!

Have a blessed day, everyone. Keep on believing and asking and hoping. What is right for one is not right for another. Believe me, I know after wearing the milwaukee for that length of time and finding out it failed.

structural75
03-22-2007, 04:07 PM
I'm sorry for the constant brawling here... I feel the same way you do. Which is why I feel that it is inappropriate for folks to post onto a thread such as this one only to debunk and discredit someone else's experience or potential interest. Nothing bothers me more than uneducated statements being put forth as fact.

You mention something that often gets lost in these dubious debates over 'scientific validity'. And that is the emotional and psychological aspect of having scoliosis. There may not be the studies certain folks would like to see for certain work specifically pertaining to scoliosis, but adults and children alike are treated with respect, compassion and dignity in my practice. And I'm sorry Gerbo if that's too esoteric for you. It's more than just a biomechanical event in a persons life, as I'm sure you can attest.

What is right for one is not right for another.I couldn't agree more... so I think it's only fair that everyone has a right to present and explore all of the options out there without unjust disgrace of them.

I think you put it best....

So please don't bash anyone's opinions. And don't belittle the hopes and dreams of the people in here.

debigolebiwski
03-22-2007, 04:44 PM
I am in desperate search of a very good doctor. Here in Mississippi, there are none. My doctor just got caught billing my insurance for visits to her office that I didn't even make. (The latest was last week when her office was closed for Spring Break). She is so very much against helping me to find a better answer than this body jacket. I think honestly that she was hanging onto me so that I would continue being her guinea pig for the next several years. But then that couldn't be true either because I felt that she was using me to see what she would need to do for her own daughters who have scoliosis. Whatever the case, I need a real doctor and a real orthotist. Apparently the two that I have here in MS are not necessarily keeping my best interest at hand. I thank you for your final kindness. Please understand that those of us who are here because we are searching for answers could use your support rather than your bashing. Sincerely.........
Debi

structural75
03-22-2007, 05:46 PM
Hi Debi,
No, I am not a Doctor. I used to publicly share my profession on this forum but it seems as though every time I do certain people take the opportunity to judge it unfairly.... . Chronic pain is generally what people arrive at my office to address, so if there's anything I can suggest to you for the pain just private message me.

I'm sorry to hear of your improper and misguided care by your MD. Maybe Linda Racine can direct you to a reputable Dr. in your area, she has a wealth of resources in that department. Bracing and so forth is not my area of expertise or qualifications, ....but it sounds as though spinecor may possibly be of great benefit to you to begin strengthening and stabilizing your back. I would suspect if your musculature has weakened significantly from being in the hard brace that this type of transition would have to be monitored and assisted by a qualified PT until you were strong enough to function daily with a flexible brace.


Please understand that those of us who are here because we are searching for answers could use your support rather than your bashing.I'm trying real hard... it's difficult to not get caught up in these debates when everytime a 'different' complimentary approach is suggested, certain folks do everything in their power to dismiss it. In an attempt to keep this forum open to more diverse options, I have no choice but to defend those that I know to be credible... I'm sorry people think I'm the cause of the bashing... .

Best to you,
structural

Karen Ocker
03-22-2007, 07:07 PM
Debi,
If you could find a Pilates studio near you or at least someone who is trained in the disclipline you could strengthen your trunk and be more comfortable. That has been my experience both before and after my surgery. As matter of fact the hospital where I has surgery offers this program.

Is there any way you could go to a neighboring state to consult a scoliosis specialist? That's what I did.

www.pilates.com

debigolebiwski
03-23-2007, 11:08 AM
There isn't much around here so I would need to go to Memhis, TN I suppose. I haven't tried travel that far in awhile. I do exercise but it's getting difficult now.

kootenaygal
11-27-2011, 02:23 AM
I have had Cranial Sacral therapy, and visceral manipulation....and can say, that both treatments helped me immensely. I have kyphoscolisis....my rib cage, hardly moves when I take a deep breath. But after Cranial Sacral, it's amazing how easily my ribs expand!! And I feel so much better. I'm on a oxygen concentrator at night...there is a definite decrease in my oxygen saturation, when I lay down. So any treatment, to increase my lung function is vital to me.

I have also had visceral manipulation as well. When I collapse, the area underneath my left breast, pops out. I can cup the area in my hand...and it's hard as rock, painful. Visceral manipulation has helped this so much. I usually need 2 weekly treatments...and then it's gone for a few weeks.

I respond very strongly to these energy healing treatments...others may not. I do have Reiki Training. But I can say, these treatments have really helped me !! They aren't just taking my $$ !! My physio therapist is thrilled to see their effect on my body!

I have my 2nd consult with a back surgeon, this week. I'm very anxious to hear if I'm a good candidate, for surgery involving rods etc. I'm terrified...but not having the surgery, may cause more problems to my vital organs as I continue to collapse, plus more pain.

Kootenaygal

rohrer01
11-27-2011, 04:07 AM
My 11 year old daughter was just recently diagnosed with a double major curve, not yet in a brace. Her curve is at 26 degrees and we are on a four month observation. I was wondering if anyone has used cranial sacral massage with good results? Thank you!

My physiatrist (yes, an MD) referred me to a PT who specializes in cranial/sacral release. When I got there I joked with the PT about what it meant. I asked her if she was going to pull my head out of my rear end. She just laughed and asked me if I had schooling. We talked about my education for a while. She described the "rhythm" that was mentioned in this thread. The only thing she did was put her hands under certain areas of my body while laying supine. I went back for a couple more treatments, meanwhile she gave me some exercises that I could use for immediate pain relief, which did work to some extent and very temporarily. All I can say about the experience is what I told my husband. You can put your hands under me the same as she can and save us the $$$. Not that she wasn't a nice lady, but the whole experience seemed pointless. I thought maybe it was intended as a placebo and the doctor just wanted to know if it worked so he would know how to proceed. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I don't believe that this approach holds any real merit. So, either I am a failure story or this is quackery (honestly believed and unintended). You can all make your own decisions about this. I have mine, and like I said, nothing was really done except putting hands under my body (head and tailbone among other places along the ribs and spine). I felt it was a pointless waste of time and money, for me.

Pooka1
11-27-2011, 08:06 AM
Periodic Table of Irrational Nonsense

"Cranial osteopathy" is Element 63 (Symbol BP) in the Quackblock (below the main table) on the Traditional nonsense line...

the-periodic-table-of irrational-nonsense (http://mockreligion.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/the-periodic-table-of-irrational-nonsense.png)

Other elements mentioned in this thread are on the periodic table also...

Reiki - Element 65 (Rk)

Of course chiro is there.. Element 59 Cp) on the same line as Reiki.

Gwenn
01-20-2012, 12:47 PM
I tried carnio-sacral therpay once and had a similar experience to previous writer. He had me lay on a table on top of some sort of air filled mattress and he slipped his hands between the mattress and me. You are fully clothed with just shoes off. He applied a light supporting touch - not massage - just some sort of balancing support and it seemed basically pointless. At one point I asked him how this was supposed to work. He replied that it was to restore balance, which I found almost comical, having a 53 degree thorasic curve and a broken metal Harrington rod in my spine. Top that with cervical and lumbar disc degeneration and the concept of 'balance' was lost on me. The only real 'work' he did was up in the occiptal (where the top of the spine meets the skull). That pressure there was more intense but felt good. The one strange result though, is now when i put my head down and touch my chin to my chest it sounds like there are grains of sand in my neck. I don't know if it was something he did or something loosened up. They are not painful, but the sound is annoying. My neck felt decent for about an hour after the treatment, but then went back to its painful and immobilizing self after that. My advice - don't waste your time of money. You are better off with a decent massage therapist who can break up the muscle knots on a regular basis.

rohrer01
01-20-2012, 02:33 PM
My PT said is was to release the fascia (connective tissue) under the skin. But I think to do that, you'd have to do some real pulling on the skin in different directions and they don't do that. She did put pressure on my rib hump, which caused me pain later on. But the whole thing was done with soft music playing in the background and soft, low-key conversation for relaxation. I can relax like that at home. I don't know why some people respond and others don't. But like I said before, it was a waste of time and money for me, too.