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Diana Black
07-03-2006, 04:10 PM
I've been reading with interest the posts on the possible links between polio and scoliosis and they made me wonder if there is a similar link with fibromyalgia? It's just that several posters have mentioned that they have both. I only have scoliosis, but my sister has fibromyalgia and has about as much trouble with her back as i do. Could the same basic thing (genetic flaw or whatever) take either form, perhaps?
Any ideas/personal experience?

Rayknox
06-30-2007, 12:17 PM
Fibromyalgia in my experience is caused by spinal twists. Remove the twists and the fibromyalgia symtoms disappear. I have just treated a female patient in such discomfort she was in hospital for a few weeks. Foot pain, leg pain shoulder pain headaches. She has no pain now at all. Took 4 treatments.
Don't expect anyone to believe this but it is fact.

nora b
06-30-2007, 01:17 PM
Hi Rayknox,

Can you elaborate on your idea of fibroimyalgia and spinal twists being linked?

I have not heard this before.

Thanks,

Nora

Rayknox
06-30-2007, 05:07 PM
Hi Nora b
First of all if you look at all the symtoms of fibromyalgia, they are all the same as symtoms caused by spinal problems- I have tried to explain the treatment I do recently on a forum here but just got ridiculed because I have no x-rays to prove what I am doing. (related to scoliosis). However I regularly get back pain patients with the diagnosis of fibromyalgia and when we untwist the spine the symtoms disappear I know - you can't do that! I hear that all that time.
I contacted a fibromyalgia support group to come and see but they weren't interested and didn't even ring back to check it out more. ( I had offered free treatment to someone of their choice)
My patients are generally happy. Others are put off by medical people who are not open to anything new.
ray.

javaboy
07-06-2007, 03:33 AM
Hi Nora,
from my understanding, they diagnose fibromyalgia by going off the number of inflamed/knotted trigger points you have in your muscles, and their spread (i.e. it has to be generally across your body, rather than localised in one area).
Now this is a bit of an inexact science, as it's the same diagnosis method as Myofascial Pain Syndrome (chronic muscle problems across a wide area of your body that can be resolved by PT). So in theory you could be diagnosed with fibromyalgia, and then have it cured by physical therapy. It's a bit of a grey area, for sure! ;)

yfei
09-05-2007, 03:26 PM
Hi Nora b
First of all if you look at all the symtoms of fibromyalgia, they are all the same as symtoms caused by spinal problems- I have tried to explain the treatment I do recently on a forum here but just got ridiculed because I have no x-rays to prove what I am doing. (related to scoliosis). However I regularly get back pain patients with the diagnosis of fibromyalgia and when we untwist the spine the symtoms disappear I know - you can't do that! I hear that all that time.
I contacted a fibromyalgia support group to come and see but they weren't interested and didn't even ring back to check it out more. ( I had offered free treatment to someone of their choice)
My patients are generally happy. Others are put off by medical people who are not open to anything new.
ray.

Hi, Ray. I have myofacial and a progressive scoliosis, even though the curves are mild. It cause me a lot of pain. I know the pain come along with the curve, but everybody says scoliosis should not cause that much pain. Where are you located?
YF

Rayknox
09-05-2007, 04:46 PM
We are in N.Ireland.
Twists in the spine can cause severe pain. Upper thoracic and cervical give headaches, arm pain and shoulder pain etc. Mid spine twists can give pain in the rib area at the front of the body like a lung pain. Low back twists can cause lots of problems from circulation problems to bowel and bladder problems to low back pain leg pain, sciatica etc.
Sometimes these twists are very slight and do not show up on x-rays or scans, but the effects are real enough.

structural75
09-06-2007, 02:04 PM
Now this is a bit of an inexact science, as it's the same diagnosis method as Myofascial Pain Syndrome (chronic muscle problems across a wide area of your body that can be resolved by PT). So in theory you could be diagnosed with fibromyalgia, and then have it cured by physical therapy. It's a bit of a grey area, for sure! Myofascial refers to the muscular fascia that houses the muscle cells... it's not so much a problem with the muscles (muscle fibers) themselves, but with the fibroblasts within the myofascia/fascia that autonomically contract (they are smooth muscle cells rather than skeletal muscle cells that "muscles' are comprised of). Myofascial Pain Syndrome is a fancy way of saying "You have pain in the soft tissue and we don't know why."

PT is not a very good approach for this and could even make it worse. I had someone call just the other day who was 'diagnose' with MPS and has been in PT for the past two years. She has gotten progressively worse... .

Regarding "twists" in the spine.... I don't doubt that when these rotations/fixations and such are addressed that the spine and body as a whole function with less stress/strain and pain diminishes or resolves... but it is not the only or primary cause of these conditions... It's a bit too generalized. The spine may in fact be "twisting" to compensate for more severe compromises of other structures.. nerves, organs, dura, etc.... Remove the rotations without addressing the underlaying problems and you may end up removing the bodies only protective and adaptive mechanism it needed... causing potentially further harm.

I just have a hard time accepting that everything comes back to rotations/bends in the spine and that the health and function of the whole system will be restored by doing that alone... The reality is that it's far more complicated than that... and their are plenty of folks with healthy 'straight' spines who have many of these problems as well.

Just my two cents... Although I'm sure it's value has depreciated by now though. ;)

structural

Rayknox
09-06-2007, 03:05 PM
Structural,
With all due respect, I think you are talking rubbish to suggest that removing spinal twists will only remove strain. Every twist has the potential to pressurise nerves which can cause pain or cause organs to function improperly. Folks with healthy 'straight' backs come to me all the time with MRI's and x-ray reports showing nothing. They all have spinal twists. They all have pain or problems of some sort. Physical therapy is completely useless in resolving most of these twists so there is no point in comparing this to TAMARS. Most of my patients have been through every sort of treatment under the sun. My last serious fibromyalgia patient had just been released from a two week hospital stay due to the seriousness of her condition. She has now no symtoms( 6 weeks from last treatment).

"Myofascial Pain Syndrome is a fancy way of saying "You have pain in the soft tissue and we don't know why." ie you have pain , we don't know why so lets call it a fancy name and you will feel better.

structural75
09-06-2007, 04:30 PM
With all due respect, I think you are talking rubbish to suggest that removing spinal twists will only remove strain. Every twist has the potential to pressurise nerves which can cause pain or cause organs to function improperly.No, ...I think you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't suggest that removing vertebral rotational fixations will only remove strain in the soft tissue... I said that the theory, as it goes by some, that removing these "twists" will resolve many or all musculoskeletal dysfunctions throughout the body is a bit overzealous, over-simplified and short-sighted.

The second part of the quote above is beginning to sound like chiropractic theory... That the root of all illness stems from nerve interference at the neural foreamen of the vertebrae, and consequently if you adjust the vertabrae, one way or another, nerve interference will be eliminated and the body will resume normal systemic function. That theory was weak to start and has since been very out dated. Granted, sometimes this can occur and lead to those types of problems, but the fact remains that nerve impingement can and does occur at sites distant from the spine with the same effect on soft tissue and relevant organ systems. A nerve can be impinged anywhere along it's path to it's ultimate destination... also known as peripheral nerve impingement (constricted by the surrounding nerve sheaths/fascial sheaths or other soft tissue/bony structures.

It might be of interest to note that there have been studies done on spinal mechanics that have shown that 'normal' rotation, flexion, extension and sidebending does NOT impinge upon the nerve roots exiting the spine unless there is abnormal conditions present such as spondylosis, osteophytic growths, disc collapse/degeneration, etc. ...However, under normal biomechanical movement nerves have been shown to have plenty of room... . In fact the studies showed that it was actually difficult to 'pinch' the nerve in a healthy spine without these conditions.


Folks with healthy 'straight' backs come to me all the time with MRI's and x-ray reports showing nothing. They all have spinal twists.When I said "straight" I meant straight... in other words, no rotations/"twists"... . X-rays would in fact show rotations of the spine if taken properly from the right angles... but that's besides the point.

Ray, don't get me wrong here... My post was primarily to mention that PT is not a cure all for MPS... . I'm sure that TAMARS has in fact helped many folks and I do think it's valid and an important contribution. I just have a hard time hearing about anything that works off such over-simplified premises... The body is far too complex for those theories to hold water all the time.


"Myofascial Pain Syndrome is a fancy way of saying "You have pain in the soft tissue and we don't know why." ie you have pain , we don't know why so lets call it a fancy name and you will feel better.Is that for the patients' insecurity in not knowing what's wrong, or the Doctors' insecurity? :rolleyes: We put so much pressure on Doctors to have all the answers... unfortunately they don't.. there is more that is not known about the human body than there is known... and even what we "know" is constantly being challenged and revised. I actually have sympathy for them in that they're placed in such a tight position to provide "answers" to some things that just don't have simple answers or solutions.

Rayknox
09-06-2007, 04:58 PM
It might be of interest to note that there have been studies done on spinal mechanics that have shown that 'normal' rotation, flexion, extension and sidebending does NOT impinge upon the nerve roots exiting the spine unless there is abnormal conditions present such as spondylosis, osteophytic growths, disc collapse/degeneration, etc. ...However, under normal biomechanical movement nerves have been shown to have plenty of room... . In fact the studies showed that it was actually difficult to 'pinch' the nerve in a healthy spine without these conditions.

It should not have taken a genius to work that one out. Otherwise we would all be cripples.

When I said "straight" I meant straight... in other words, no rotations/"twists"... . X-rays would in fact show rotations of the spine if taken properly from the right angles... but that's besides the point.

Time after time the reports the patients bring with them-x-ray reports and MRI's- state that the spine is normally alligned.


Ray, don't get me wrong here... My post was primarily to mention that PT is not a cure all for MPS

TAMARS is not PT as you know it.


That the root of all illness stems from nerve interference at the neural foreamen of the vertebrae,

Iam not saying that all illness stems from interference here. I am saying that its effects are not fully recognised due to poor analysis methods.


The second part of the quote above is beginning to sound like chiropractic theory

Chiropractic adjustments are out of the ark as well.

structural75
09-06-2007, 06:30 PM
It should not have taken a genius to work that one out. Otherwise we would all be cripples.This is not directed at you, but... if it's so 'obvious' then why are so many chiropractors in existence? And why do they claim that everyone should get adjustments to maintain health? And why do so many Doctors suspect nerve impingement when someone complains of back pain???

Also on that note... If that's so obvious then why are you suggesting that "twists" will put "pressure" on nerves???


Time after time the reports the patients bring with them-x-ray reports and MRI's- state that the spine is normally alligned.As I'm sure you know, read the reports with a grain of salt. There job is to look for 'more concerning' abnormalities.... most radiologists and Drs don't see a problem with misaligned vertabrae unless they're compromising surrounding structures. I wouldn't rely on radiology reports for that kind of assessment.


TAMARS is not PT as you know it.Yes, I know... I didn't call TAMARS Physical Therapy... My original post was in reference to Javaboy's comment regarding "chronic muscle problems across a wide area of your body that can be resolved by PT.".

Hope that clarifies things from my end... sorry for the heat.... .....

Rayknox
09-07-2007, 02:40 AM
What I was implying was that the majority of the population moves and twists and bends without any pain or problem. The ones who cannot bend, twist or move without pain generally have twists in their spine. When the twists are removed the pain disappears so obviously the twists are causing the pain.
There are so many chiropractors about because so many people have back problems, and no one is helping them. The adjustments they do are, in my view, brutal, and often give no lasting relief, so hence the patient has to have treatment over and over and over again.

whatishappening
10-07-2011, 01:08 AM
Hello- I know this is an old thread but I am hoping to revive it. I would also so much appreciate getting help on this- I will travel if need be.

It seems this is what I have been suffering from.

Regarding spinal twists, the spine cannot rotate in isolation wrt the rest of the body: it must drag the rest of the body with it! Pulling on the muscles and fascia so that the bottoms of the feet remain in contact with the ground. I feel that this is what is happening to me. I just has a monster case of illiotibeal band syndrome and planatar fascitis- and it hasn't stopped- my quads are feeling it, the other leg now is feeling it- everything is feeling it. Arms too. What do you think of that?

Now huge question: what if the initial small rotation was from a small curve idiopathic congenital scoliosis, which then got amplified over the course of a lifetime (with the person unaware) and then at menopause as the lack of estrogen weakens the fascia, the system begins to collpase. Can you still correct the spinal twisting???

Please if Rayknox or Structural are still around, I would be so grateful for any info at all, including where to go to get help.

Please and thank you!

Rayknox
10-07-2011, 04:55 AM
Hi there,
Yes I am still around and still treating scoliosis and fibromyalgia(among other problems). With more years of treatments I have obviously more experience. Fibromyalgia appears to have the same cause as scoliosis in the majority of cases ie a fall on the end of the spine. This can happen by falling on the pavement, off a bicycle, falling down stairs etc. the spine is compressed and really the medical profession have no idea how to treat the problem.
If the fall is in childhood, scoliosis is the result,( or a deformed spine )as the child gets a growth spurt. If the fall is after the growth spurt the deformity does not pose as much of a problem.
This type of a fall causes problems and pain over a wide area. Permanent headaches, numbness , sciatica, arm and back pain etc etc are the usual result.
Any fibromyalgia patients I treat have had this type of injury, and the unfortunate thing is that x-rays do not show up the problem so the patients are often deemed to have a mental issue.
Because of all the scepticism, all patients in this clinic are personal referrals, which is better anyway. If you want a contact I have treated, I can oblige.

jrnyc
10-07-2011, 08:21 AM
maybe i missed reading it...
did you say what kind of specialty you have...?
are you a doctor...a chiropractor...
what are your credentials for medical school...?
what medicine do you practice?
are there different rules for practicing medicine in N Ireland?

jess

Pooka1
10-07-2011, 08:55 AM
I believe Ray Knox admited he has no relevant training and is trying to spin up TAMARS as an alternative (i.e., non-medical) treatment.

It is a little hand-held massager device. Maybe he will post a picture.

jrnyc
10-07-2011, 11:59 PM
i find the posts about "patients" very misleading!
who has patients unless they are a licensed medical doctor, licensed psychologist or
social worker, licensed PT, OT, etc...the key word being LICENSED?!

isn't it against the law to practice without a license?!

jess

Pooka1
10-08-2011, 08:58 AM
i find the posts about "patients" very misleading!
who has patients unless they are a licensed medical doctor, licensed psychologist or
social worker, licensed PT, OT, etc...the key word being LICENSED?!

isn't it against the law to practice without a license?!

jess

I agree. Chiros claim to have patients also. That is a good reason to disallow them from using the "Dr." title. They can't use the title in the UK and the US should follow suit.

Rayknox
10-08-2011, 09:02 AM
I replied to a specific request.
I am not treating illegally, and I am fully insured.
If you are interested in my results ask sensible questions.
jrnyc -- 'Maybe I missed reading it' ?? You obviously need glasses to see what I wrote or didn't write.!
pooka1 --you are aware from previous posts that I have never claimed to have a medical background. Medics cannot do what I am doing although this treatment is gaining respect in some American hospitals since I got it introduced. A lot of progress has been made since I last contributed to this forum. I just got fed up getting abuse so I stopped contributing.
A British University should be publishing some of our work before the end of the year, and that only scratches the surface of what we are doing.

Pooka1
10-08-2011, 09:06 AM
I replied to a specific request.
I am not treating illegally, and I am fully insured.
If you are interested in my results ask sensible questions.
'Maybe I missed reading it' ?? You obviously need glasses.!

What is your medical training?

Please list details and dates.

I thought you have previously admitted you bought the hand held massager (TAMARS) business from someone else. Is it a multilevel marketing scheme?

Can you post a picture of the device with a scale for size?

Thanks in advance.

Pooka1
10-08-2011, 09:12 AM
By the way, are you licensed to do radiographs? If not, how do you claim your treatment is doing a damn thing?

If you have radiographs, please post before and after pairs as evidence of efficacy.

Thanks.

titaniumed
10-08-2011, 09:41 AM
[QUOTE=Pooka1;126750] Is it a multilevel marketing scheme?

QUOTE]

Mark Yarnell with Nuskin? LOL
Ed

Pooka1
10-08-2011, 09:46 AM
Mark Yarnell with Nuskin? LOL

Exactly. :-)

titaniumed
10-08-2011, 10:19 AM
I was joking.

The device does look like it would feel good....I would have liked a session before I was fused.

Ed

Pooka1
10-08-2011, 10:24 AM
It's believable to suggest a little hand-held massager can help with some back pain. But Knox is claiming it can straighten scoliotic spines. I'd like to hear the folk science behind that just for my own amazement. It might give other folk science around here a run for its money.

Pooka1
10-08-2011, 10:30 AM
It's very hard to find a good picture of the device, probably for a good reason. It has 4 little "feet" that move up and down. It might well help with some back pain.

Here is one photo I found that shows that it is basically palm-sized. This is what is claimed to straighten scoliotic spines....

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=402540450819&set=a.402520380819.195542.402205060819&type=3&theater

titaniumed
10-08-2011, 11:31 AM
I have looked at this device, its looks great. If it provides relief, it’s a benefit.

Straightening a spine is one thing, holding it straight is another. We all know that that’s the tricky part.(smiley face)

There are many scoli’s that prefer not to be fused. Many like myself, use or used any available method of pain control to buy time and sometimes this costs a bunch of money.....the main thing is that these scolis are monitored by a scoliosis trained surgeon to rule out things that non-surgically trained people cant diagnose.

Advertising “straightening” a scoliotic spine is a strong statement. Advertising “reducing” a scoliotic spine is different. Permanently or temporarily are the things that need to be thought about if one has these intentions or wishes.

X-rays are the only way to see what’s happening as far as curve progression is concerned. Photos are not acceptable for measuring spinal shape....I’ve seen photos of scolis and they might look like they have a 50 degree curve and they are 100 degrees plus....surgical candidates that need immediate intervention.

Anyone who works on anybody’s spine that can see that the shape is not normal, really needs to refer that person to a qualified “scoliosis” trained surgeon. When people like Elias show up, and the Chiropractors don’t make any noise, that’s just plain wrong and increases the seriousness of the situation. He had a 115 degree curve.
Ed

Pooka1
10-08-2011, 11:39 AM
Advertising “straightening” a scoliotic spine is a strong statement. Advertising “reducing” a scoliotic spine is different.

They are both the same in that evidence needs to be provided for any and all claims. That includes "reducing" a curve. You can reduce a curve over 10* just by standing in a different posture as shown in the one Spinecor pub. Probably all such alternative approaches have effectiveness measured in seconds, not even minutes.

jrnyc
10-08-2011, 02:59 PM
anyone can practice just about anything as long as they don't claim to be a licensed
practitioner....that doesn't make it right...
anyone can hang out a shingle..

and i can see just fine, mr raynox...
i find your posts about "patients" extremely misleading...possibly they are
misleading on purpose

claims are easy to make...
proof is another story
as Sharon said, if you are not LICENSED to read X rays, where is your proof....
exactly who is reading these X rays that prove any changes...permanent or otherwise?

WHAT are you insured as? what are you licensed to do?


massage usually feels great...no massage therapist i ever had has ever claimed to
do more than help make me feel better...
none claimed they could change the shape of my spine, reduce or straighten my
curves, or do anything else but maybe temporarily reduce my pain....

the truth is the truth...

perhaps we could see on this forum anything "a British University" publishes showing
an untrained lay person's "work"

jess

whatishappening
10-08-2011, 04:13 PM
Gosh, I missed all the action. I got a response saying that scoliosis results from a fall on the butt- well in my case I disagree. I recently met up with my older (by 2 years) brother and his 2 daughters (now 15) and was shocked. My brother has one shoulder higher than the other, one scapula sticking out and has chronic back pain. My nieces have the same posture I have struggled to correct for years- very broad back with very rounded forward shoulders- it was like looking in a mirror. In my case, whatever I have, it is genetic I know that now.

I also know that massage is not the answer for me. Help me please, my spine is twisting- I need muscular strength and craftly well thought out stretches to keep it from twisting more. I am also afraid of massage, afraid of relaxing, lest this thing gets worse.

I am also so tried and so sad and so alone that people keep saying this is not scoliosis because there is no lateral curve. I am not crazy and I am not insane, this is happening and it hurts. I am so alone, I just don't know what to do, doctors look at me like a am crazy because they can't see in 3 dimensions- they can't see the torsion.

Anyway, thank you Rayknox for your prompt reply, I do appreciate it- but I have to say, from the depth of my being, massage and relaxation may be the worst thing for me right now. Menopause has triggered something with this- a decrease in strength or whatever. I have also just finished 10 sessions of chiropracty which loosened me up an insane amount and I feel I am much worse for it- my muscles feel like jello most of the time and then sieze up after a long day, but the jello feeling is new and bizarre and I think it result from too much "relaxation". If anyone else with rotational problems reads this- be very very careful of any sort of rotational "mobilization".

Pooka1
10-09-2011, 09:18 AM
Here's a TAMARS thread from four years ago

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?5793-Scoliosis-and-TAMARS-treatment

Knox admits he has no medical training and further admits the inventor has no medical training. (...cough... cough... MLM... cough...).

Maybe Knox can update us on any clinical trials on the efficacy of TAMARS in straightening spines that may have occurred in the last four years.

titaniumed
10-09-2011, 11:55 AM
Thx for the laugh....cough....

I just knew you would dig up an old thread. I gave it about 60 seconds.

I tried manipulation. I tried it for 25 years and it worked well for controlling pain.

For correction......well,...this clip will explain it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA

Ed

Pooka1
10-09-2011, 12:35 PM
For correction......well,...this clip will explain it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA

Ed

LOL! 'Xactly. SRSLY.

LindaRacine
10-09-2011, 01:06 PM
Hi Nora b
First of all if you look at all the symtoms of fibromyalgia, they are all the same as symtoms caused by spinal problems- I have tried to explain the treatment I do recently on a forum here but just got ridiculed because I have no x-rays to prove what I am doing. (related to scoliosis). However I regularly get back pain patients with the diagnosis of fibromyalgia and when we untwist the spine the symtoms disappear I know - you can't do that! I hear that all that time.
I contacted a fibromyalgia support group to come and see but they weren't interested and didn't even ring back to check it out more. ( I had offered free treatment to someone of their choice)
My patients are generally happy. Others are put off by medical people who are not open to anything new.
ray.

Unbelievable... literally!

In the future, let me know when this type of post appears, and I'll stop it immediately.

Pooka1
10-09-2011, 03:57 PM
This is a prime example of the type of folk science that comes about with no medical training.

Scoliosis... fibromyalgia... maybe little palm-sized massagers with 4 little feet can also solve the debt crisis. Knowledge of macroeconomics not required... just need them little feetsies amovin' up and down!!!

The list is really unlimited when the person is unconstrained by real knowledge.

Rayknox
10-10-2011, 04:25 AM
"... everyone deserves to speak their thoughts no matter how bizarre they are." -- ElleBelleCurvz
I think I have attached a document that may be of interest.

This is after I introduced the treatment in Florida.

Pooka1
10-10-2011, 06:37 AM
Thanks for posting that about pain relief, however temporary.

Where is your proof that you can straighten spines?

Had you gotten on here and stuck with claims of pain relief, that would be one thing. But you overplayed your hand knowing you didn't have any proof of straightening spines despite the claim.

The ONLY legitimate proof of spine straightening is before and after radiographs. Then we have to determine how long any straightening lasts. I think you know that. No more games.

LindaRacine
10-10-2011, 07:47 PM
"... everyone deserves to speak their thoughts no matter how bizarre they are." -- ElleBelleCurvz
I think I have attached a document that may be of interest.

This is after I introduced the treatment in Florida.

Do you realize that no one is questioning the ability of your device to reduce pain. Sugar pills can reduce pain, so it would be very surprising if a mechanical device couldn't. What everyone is questioning is the ability of your device to reduce someone's curve significantly and permanently.

Pooka1
10-10-2011, 08:02 PM
Knox knows damn well that before and after radiographs are what is required to prove the efficacy of little feet straightening spines. He has known this back to at least 2007 and very likely before. He is not an idiot... he has an engineering degree.

At this point, the evidence of efficacy is conspicuous by its absence. And Knox knows it. My guineas pigs know it.