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Att: LINDA RACINE AND ALL MEMBERS! PROACTIVE APPROACH!

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  • Att: LINDA RACINE AND ALL MEMBERS! PROACTIVE APPROACH!

    Hi Linda and gang,

    Linda have you heard anything more about this clear institute? I notice we had a couple of members talking about it for a while but they seemed to have vanished. Are they being edited from this forum?
    I am considering going to Calgary to see Dr. Sandy Watts from the institute although I am skeptical. He is the closest to me in B.C Canada but is still 500 miles away. Luckily I have relatives there to stay with.
    I had a thought and wanted to bounce it off you Linda and all the forum members. We could all sit back and denounce this clear institute as non-viable, or if we collectively determine this to be a feasable treatment option, we as a group could take a proactive approach. I.E Research and or...................
    Consider this. At Lindas discretion we chose a viable candidate from our forum for treatment at the clear institute. I would suggest someone that has been a long standing member of the forum that we all feel comfortable has no affiliation with the clear institute.Also someone who is located closely to the clinic. We all make a donation to assist or completley pay for (if possible) this members treatment at the clinic. For a small chuck of change we can test the clinics viability! I am not a rich man but the way I see it, this test could cost each of us less than a couple of visits to your chiro, massge therapist, PT, accupuncturist etc (which none of us seem to be getting any serious results anyway!) If this flys I am in for $100. It doesn't have to be that much for everyone, just give what you can!
    By the way this is not a lead up to paying for my treatment! From my understanding the guy I am potentially going to see does not have the equipment that these other clinics have. Anyways obviously we would have to hammer out alot of details, but WHAT DO YOU THINK? IS THIS AN IDEA?
    We can be armchair quarterbacks, or we can turn this forum into a proactive search for results that could change this crappy condition around! Lets hear your feedback! All the best, Dave Bishop (BISH)

  • #2
    In all honesty and much respect, I would not want to be even partly responsible for someone getting bad medical care if it turns out that way and from what I'm understanding of this method, it doesn't seem the healthiest.
    I would not donate because I don't want that type of burden on my conscience.
    36 year old single mom of teens ages 14 & 15.
    Anterior/posterior spinal fusion on February 9th & 16th 2006 with Dr. Anthony Moreno who now has his own practice.
    Fused from T-3 to S-1 (sacrum)
    Curve pre-op = 70 degrees
    Curve post op = 20 degrees
    No pain anymore!!
    Google is your friend

    I am not a doctor and will never give medical advice. I will support and answer questions from personal experience only.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Dave...

      I have to agree with Kat. If someone has a treatment that works, they should be able to prove it without any financial aid from the rest of us. And, they should be willing to give money back guarantees, because if it really works, they're going to be very wealthy.

      Regards,
      Linda
      Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
      Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

      Comment


      • #4
        Well guys,
        I can understand not everyone would be on board with this proposition, especially if you have already had surgery it is not going to do much good. My hope here is to broaden our minds a little. If you have any other ideas that would be great. Would anyone be willing to investigate this further? Maybe do a small part to find out more? Does anyone from the local area know a number for a better business bureau? We could check them out that way. I am in no way suggesting this Clear institute is the cats meow, in fact disproving them could save some of a us a bundle and I would be fine with that. If you think my plan sucks lets hear some others.
        Also Katblack, you mentioned bad medical care? Where did you hear this? If so I would like to know, even that is more info than the website suggests (of course). Quanify it. Is this fear or evidence based? Also you spoke of it not being a healthy alternative. Would you describe surgery as a healthy alternative? Rods, screws bone grafts, fusion? I am sure if we sift through the forum we would find a number of people who would disagree. It is a last ditch effort with many side effects.I am sure those of us who can will try like hell to avoid it, but there may be no choice, because so far that is all we know.
        Linda you never said if you had heard anything more about the clear institute? Are we editing these posts? Or banning certain members? Don't get me wrong, we need to sift out the dingbats and sales people. I do understand this.Do you have any thoughts on how to test the validity of the clear institute? All the best, Bish

        Comment


        • #5
          Also Linda. Do you know any surgeons who will give a money back guarantee if scoliosis surgery doesn't take, or if the patient is riddled with pain for the rest of their lives? I Don't. I am not trying to be a thorn in your rear or stir up crap for fun, I am just saying lets come up with a tool to investigate this or any other viable treatment for scoliosis. This may not be the one! I am O.K with that. Thanx, Bish

          Comment


          • #6
            Bish,
            Perhaps my reply is fear based, based on my own years of experience with chiropractors which is what this treatment is, let's make no mistake about that.

            I too would like to know how they hold the curve permanently for life because as anyone who has spent years in a brace will tell you, it holds it for a short time and then your curve goes back to what it was or worse when you take it off but I am not willing to ask anyone to go test this method for me and spend years trying to fix it.
            I don't think any of us has the right to ask anyone on this forum to do something that will cost them years and money.
            Plus, this guy claims he can fix it in just two weeks. How can this guy make such a claim yet offer no proof of any of this on his website. I scoured that site before my surgery and all I found was a bunch of pdf files about seminars that cost money to attend and dvds to buy.

            I also don't think you have the right to make an assumption that Linda is editing posts or banning people.
            She can't do that. If she could, she would have deleted the many many posts from spammers that I see posted here all the time. Heck, she would have banned me a long time ago and deleted my posts...lol

            Bish, if you want to investigate this further, have at it but please don't ask anyone here to volunteer to spend years and money to test something for you. You don't have that right.
            36 year old single mom of teens ages 14 & 15.
            Anterior/posterior spinal fusion on February 9th & 16th 2006 with Dr. Anthony Moreno who now has his own practice.
            Fused from T-3 to S-1 (sacrum)
            Curve pre-op = 70 degrees
            Curve post op = 20 degrees
            No pain anymore!!
            Google is your friend

            I am not a doctor and will never give medical advice. I will support and answer questions from personal experience only.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Bish...

              I do not edit posts or ban people.

              I don't think I've ever seen a spine surgeon give a money back guarantee. However, I have seen them write studies that are published in peer-reviewed journals. So, we know that when we go into surgery, we've got a certain percentage chance of having a specific outcome.

              --Linda
              Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
              Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

              Comment


              • #8
                Katblack,
                you said
                "Bish, if you want to investigate this further, have at it but please don't ask anyone here to volunteer to spend years and money to test something for you. You don't have that right."

                Katblack I think your comments on my suggestion might be a wee bit on the melowdramatic side. I am sure you can see the value in investigating potential solutions to the problem we all face. I suppose if someone from our forum was considering going to the clear institute anyways, this idea could save them alot of money and get some answers for those who are considering this possibility themselves. If you are not interested, no sweat! You also stated that the clear institute is making claims of corrections within weeks, where does your refference to volunteers spending years come from? If this ever happened (which obviously will not) this little test would comprise willing participants in the donation and treatment, not poor unsuspecting little guinea pigs.
                By the way did you come up with any positive ways to investigate this treatment? If you don't see the value in finding out, then perhaps you can reserve comment for those who do.
                Bish

                Comment


                • #9
                  Linda,
                  Point taken, you are right.But I wonder how many scoliosis surgeries were conducted before the first published peer reviewed journal on the subject ever appeared. I don't want to mislead you into thinking I am an advocate of the clear institute. I am not. I am an advocate for keeping an open mind.
                  Change takes time. I wonder how many years (or centuries) the world remained convinced the earth was flat despite scientific claims to the contrary.
                  The reason I think myself and others are curious about this is because the results could be life changing. The problem is there appears to be a lot of holes in the claims of the clear institute. I would love to find out for sure either way. All the best, Bish

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If you are really passionate about doing this, you can and should find a way to get the funds other than asking for it from the membership.

                    That's why there's fundraising.

                    Also, a result from one treatment of one person is insiginficant in proving that the treatment will work for the majority. Would you take an experimental drug after the researchers told you it worked for one person, so therefore it's safe for everyone and will work for everyone?
                    30 something y.o.

                    2003 - T45, L???
                    2005 - T50, L31
                    bunch of measurements between...

                    2011 - T60, L32
                    2013 - T68, L?

                    Posterior Fusion Sept 2014 -- T3 - L3
                    Post - op curve ~35


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LindaRacine
                      Hi Dave...

                      I have to agree with Kat. If someone has a treatment that works, they should be able to prove it without any financial aid from the rest of us. And, they should be willing to give money back guarantees, because if it really works, they're going to be very wealthy.

                      Regards,
                      Linda

                      What kind of childish logic is that?
                      Just thought I should let you in on a little secret...
                      Money back guarantee is unethical and illegal for healthcare providers...
                      Since you are in CA, check with CMA or medical board what the standard is in your state...
                      In healthcare, you pay for the service..not the result..
                      Anyway, anyone who advertises money back guaratee would have their license pulled in an instant if the board found out...
                      An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarised with the ideas from the beginning.

                      Max Planck (the founder of Quantum Physics)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bish
                        Katblack,
                        you said
                        "Bish, if you want to investigate this further, have at it but please don't ask anyone here to volunteer to spend years and money to test something for you. You don't have that right."

                        Katblack I think your comments on my suggestion might be a wee bit on the melowdramatic side. I am sure you can see the value in investigating potential solutions to the problem we all face. I suppose if someone from our forum was considering going to the clear institute anyways, this idea could save them alot of money and get some answers for those who are considering this possibility themselves. If you are not interested, no sweat! You also stated that the clear institute is making claims of corrections within weeks, where does your refference to volunteers spending years come from? If this ever happened (which obviously will not) this little test would comprise willing participants in the donation and treatment, not poor unsuspecting little guinea pigs.
                        By the way did you come up with any positive ways to investigate this treatment? If you don't see the value in finding out, then perhaps you can reserve comment for those who do.
                        Bish
                        Melodrama is fun and I was simply following your cue, accusing the board of deleting posts or banning members who support this method.

                        My reference to years comes from the fact that no chiro method has EVER been able to correct scoliosis in weeks. If they had, many many more people would have taken the chrio route rather than the surgical route.
                        It would have been published everywhere, people would be screaming the benefits of this method from the mountaintops, but instead, here we are, attempting to pay someone to test it for us.
                        If you don't see the value in finding out, then perhaps you can reserve comment for those who do.
                        If you don't really want every member of this board to answer your posts, don't start them off by saying AND ALL MEMBERS.
                        36 year old single mom of teens ages 14 & 15.
                        Anterior/posterior spinal fusion on February 9th & 16th 2006 with Dr. Anthony Moreno who now has his own practice.
                        Fused from T-3 to S-1 (sacrum)
                        Curve pre-op = 70 degrees
                        Curve post op = 20 degrees
                        No pain anymore!!
                        Google is your friend

                        I am not a doctor and will never give medical advice. I will support and answer questions from personal experience only.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Would you describe surgery as a healthy alternative? Rods, screws bone grafts, fusion? I am sure if we sift through the forum we would find a number of people who would disagree
                          Bish-

                          You might find a number of people who disagree, however there are many of us who do believe surgery is a healthy alternative to a lifetime of physical and often psychological pain. No sensible person arrives at the decision to have major surgery without exploring other options. In fact, except in extreme cases, many surgeons do not recommend surgery until conservative treatment methods have been tried.

                          The problem is there appears to be a lot of holes in the claims of the clear institute. I would love to find out for sure either way.
                          If you want to find out whether this is on the up and up, go yourself and report back. Asking others to voluntarily submit to this "treatment" is inappropriate. Asking people to donate money for this purpose is also inappropriate.

                          Brandi
                          Brandi
                          Congenital Scoliosis, 58* lumbar curve
                          Combined Anterior/Posterior Spinal Fusion w/Laminectomy May 22, 2006
                          L1-S1
                          Dr. William Lauerman
                          Georgetown University Hospital, Washington, DC
                          Pedicle Subtraction Osteotomy @ L3, Posterior Spinal Fusion L2-L4, rod removal with re-instrumentation T10-S1 and Laminectomy February 5, 2009 to correct flatback
                          http://brandi816.wordpress.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            O.k guys,
                            You win. The purpose of my initial idea was to inspire some thought and possibly come up with some new and inventive ways of determining the value of a non surgical treatment for scoliosis, which is what this forum is about. Lots of people willing to "pooh pooh" my idea but none interested enough to come up witht their own. As it turns out the majority does not feel the same way I do. I am a little dissapointed that not one single idea has come forth that might help determine the validity of this treatment.Even hearsay would have been something. I.E. "My second cousin twice removed went to the clinic and they did not get any results!". I am going to do some investigating myself, which I intended to do anyway and I will post what I find out.All the best, Bish

                            By the way I do like a good debate, but this does not take away from the fact that I do understand and feel for all of you with this condition. Best of luck in whatever method of treatment you choose. If you get results post them!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              open mind???

                              Bish:
                              Nobody WANTS SURGERY. Unfortunately, if you have the time to research old forms of treatment, you will find that bracing in young people with small curves CAN be effective, but with a curve that's increasing at a malignant rate--like mine did in 1956 NOTHING ELSE stops it/corrects it like spinal fusion with instrumentation-to reinforce/hold the correction. So many other things have been tried-from hanging a person with straps, exercises, massage, traction, vibration, chiropractic to bracing for many YEARS.

                              My original scoliosis surgery was 50 YEARS ago. I had a 100 deg curve with smaller upper and lower compensatory curves. I was born perfectly straight, but like many other with idiopathic scoliosis,for some God forsaken reason, I just kept getting more and more crooked. It was really heartbraking. That surgery, years ago gave me an intervening normal life. Since no hardware was used then, I needed to stay in bed for a WHOLE YEAR, in a series of casts for that fusion to heal. Over my lifetime, that fusion weakened despite no osteoporosis, an athletic, healthy lifestyle--requiring a revision at age 60. But I was able to go back to work-pain free.

                              As an aside: my sister-in-law, a school nurse, heard a lecture by a scoliosis surgeon. he said, "it is hard enough to straighten a curve, during surgery, with hardware, I can't imagine how manipulating a spine from the out side can do it".

                              As far as the Clear Institute goes. I have seen no peer reviewed studies showing long term outcome in large numbers of patients where significant curves have been PERMANENTLY been corrected. As a medical professional, I have looked at their site and see nothing that really has been tried proven effective before here or in Europe. Is it covered by insurance? If not, why not? Many insurance companies will NOT pay unless a treatment IS effective.

                              If indeed they(Clear Institute) are on to something then, by all means, publish results for the world to benefit.

                              Another suggestion: Look through the older posts/archives and see what kind of LONG TERM RESULTS were obtained by those who tried alternatives. One such "promising alternative" using the Copes Method was just shut down after fleecing many hopeful scoliosis patients.

                              We have all gone down a painful frustrating path with scoliosis. Believe me, if something were better we would all have jumped at it. Many of us have learned from others' disappointing results using ineffective alternatives.

                              Try it(Clear Inst) if you feel the urge--come back to us in 2 years and share your experience/results if it will help someone here.

                              I personally think it is a waste of time /money.
                              Last edited by Karen Ocker; 04-18-2006, 01:26 PM.
                              Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
                              Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

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