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LindaRacine
09-29-2005, 11:49 PM
Another Schroth study abstract.... I sure wish someone would conduct a follow-up study to one of these. There are several studies that show that curves decrease during treatment, but none that show that the correction is maintained once treatment has ended.

Saudi Med J. 2005 Sep;26(9):1429-35. Related Articles, Links

The efficacy of Schroth s 3-dimensional exercise therapy in the treatment of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis in Turkey.

Otman S, Kose N, Yakut Y.

Professor, School of Physical Therapy and Rehabilitation, Hacettepe University, Samanpazari 06100, Ankara, Turkey. Tel. +90 (312) 3051507. Fax. + 90 (312) 3243847 / 3111131. E-mail: sotman@hacettepe.edu.tr/ asotman@superonline.com.

OBJECTIVE: To determine the effectiveness of 3-dimensional therapy in the treatment of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis. METHODS: We carried out this study with 50 patients whose average age was 14.15 +/- 1.69 years at the Physical Therapy and Rehabilitation School, Hacettepe University, Ankara, Turkey, from 1999 to 2004. We treated them as outpatients, 5 days a week, in a 4-hour program for the first 6 weeks. After that, they continued with the same program at home. We evaluated the Cobb angle, vital capacity and muscle strength of the patients before treatment, and after 6 weeks, 6 months and one year, and compared all the results. RESULTS: The average Cobb angle, which was 26.1 degrees on average before treatment, was 23.45 degrees after 6 weeks, 19.25 degrees after 6 months and 17.85 degrees after one year (p<0.01). The vital capacities, which were on average 2795 ml before treatment, reached 2956 ml after 6 weeks, 3125 ml after 6 months and 3215 ml after one year (p<0.01). Similarly, according to the results of evaluations after 6 weeks, 6 months and one year, we observed an increase in muscle strength and recovery of the postural defects in all patients (p<0.01). CONCLUSION: Schroth s technique positively influenced the Cobb angle, vital capacity, strength and postural defects in outpatient adolescents.

Celia
09-30-2005, 09:03 AM
Makes me wish I lived in Germany or Spain where the Schroth method is being used *sigh*

Karen Ocker
09-30-2005, 10:32 PM
Linda:

The way I understand it the person must be highly motivated and do this strict routine forever.
I also haven't found later follow ups but I haven't looked very hard.
Karen

LindaRacine
10-01-2005, 01:17 AM
Yes, you have to be willing to essentially devote your life to this exercise plan. That's why I'm really curious to find out what happens when one stops the exercises. While a small percentage of people may be able to continue exercies for 4 hours a day for the rest of their lives, I think most of us would eventually drop it.

--Linda

Celia
10-01-2005, 10:52 AM
What ?! :eek: four hous a day ?! Are you sure ? I was thinking maybe 1/2 an hour per day.

LindaRacine
10-01-2005, 01:00 PM
See the abstract above:


5 days a week, in a 4-hour program

gerbo
10-01-2005, 04:36 PM
i am sure i picked up somewhere that maintenance after the indeed very intensive initial treatment is in the order of 1/2 hour a day.

Nobody would have enough motivation to do this 4 hour/day longterm, wouldn't be worth it!!
gerbo

LindaRacine
10-16-2005, 12:35 PM
I now have the entire text of the paper. For the first six weeks, patients exercised under supervision 4 hours a day X 5 days a week. Later, "they carried out the same program at home."

These patients all had right thoracic curves between 20 and 35 degrees and were aged 11 to 17. As I suspected, there has been no followup of these patients after exercise was discontinued.

I think this study shows that if you've got a really motivated kid who is skeletally immature, this program may be an excellent alternative to a brace.

--Linda

gerbo
10-17-2005, 02:38 AM
an article by Dr Weiss which i read this week confirmed above intensive treatment with maintenance at home for 1/2 hour a day afterwards.

gerbo

LindaRacine
10-17-2005, 01:53 PM
Gerbo...

That's a different study, carried out in 1992.

--Linda

gerbo
10-18-2005, 02:46 AM
"paediatic rehabilitation" decemebr 2003, written by the man (dr weiss) himself describing treatment regime in schroth clinic and aftercare.

LindaRacine
10-18-2005, 12:03 PM
I'm aware of that. I was specifically referring to the 2005 study quoted at the beginning of this thread.

--Linda

gerbo
10-18-2005, 02:36 PM
1) It does appear from the summary (and I assume the original article) of the study in Turkey, that exercises at home following inpatient treatment need to be done for four hours a day.

2) However this is not the norm; in the Katharina Schroth clinic in germany, run by Dr Weiss, who i believe is a son of Katharina Schroth (could be wrong there) which to all intends and purposes could be described as the "home of schroth therapy", treatment consists of 4-6 weeks intensive inpatient physiotherapy (with 2-3 week long repeats if necessary) with half an hour daily home exercises afterwards. This should be quite do-able. Anybody who wishes to read up on this : "Rehabilitation of adolescent patients with scoliosis-what do we know now? A review of the literature" by HR Weiss in "Pediatric Rehabilitation,2003,vol6, no3-4, 183-194" For that matter, that whole edition of the magazine is dedicated to non-surgical managemnt and makes interesting reading.

Alistair
07-15-2015, 02:01 AM
Has anyone got any kind of benefit from the Schroth book only? I can't even understand the rotational breathing let alone the exercises.. what's the point of that book I wonder.. so far the only thing I understood is that I shouldn't sleep on my rib hump :/

Pooka1
07-15-2015, 09:27 AM
Has anyone got any kind of benefit from the Schroth book only? I can't even understand the rotational breathing let alone the exercises.. what's the point of that book I wonder.. so far the only thing I understood is that I shouldn't sleep on my rib hump :/

1. It was written by a lay person (and it shows).

2. Even in Germany where it was developed it is still a fringe treatment and surgery goes on as usual.

3. The developer's grandson tried for more than a decade and with tens of thousands of patients to make it work. He admitted he failed, admitted PT can't control curvature, and uses braces now.

I was recently outraged to hear a pediatric orthopedic surgeon on Doctor Radio (SiriusXM) state that it works and people should check it out. I am going to write what I wrote here on the FB page about this ignorant misinformation and email the host of that program (a physiatrist) about the bad info. I am going to cc the medical director of Doctor Radio about it also. Complete nonsense.

Alistair
07-15-2015, 09:45 AM
The developer's grandson tried for more than a decade and with tens of thousands of patients to make it work. He admitted he failed, admitted PT can't control curvature, and uses braces now.

I was recently outraged to hear a pediatric orthopedic surgeon on Doctor Radio (SiriusXM) state that it works and people should check it out. I am going to write what I wrote here on the FB page about this ignorant misinformation and email the host of that program (a physiatrist) about the bad info. I am going to cc the medical director of Doctor Radio about it also. Complete nonsense.

It's very sad, but I'm very grateful for your post. I commend your behaviour about the misleading info, I think that's what everyone should do, once we find some misleading abuser who takes advantage of all these grey areas scoliosis has around it we should do what we can (which is very little, unfortunately) to let them know someone is watching and vigilant..

flerc
07-15-2015, 01:09 PM
Has anyone got any kind of benefit from the Schroth book only? I can't even understand the rotational breathing let alone the exercises.. what's the point of that book I wonder.. so far the only thing I understood is that I shouldn't sleep on my rib hump :/

Coincidently I was yesterday asking for someone understanding what they said in this book. The considered N 1 physiatrist in my country said me about it: 'If it's dificult for me to understand it, I don' want to imagine what it could be for you!'

Alistair
07-15-2015, 02:25 PM
I see. Well I'm glad I'm not the only one having troubles understanding it, if there is anything to understand, that is.
Guys, do not buy this book, it can be found for free online in pdf, let's not give these people the satisfaction.

flerc
07-15-2015, 02:47 PM
Yes, I think is similar to read an engineering paper without any maths background. I think they are physiatrists or something similar. Weiss wrote another book for lay people as he said. I always forget to try to get it.
This was the first scoliosis book I have bought years ago, I really think it's a very much logic methd, is not really symetric, something having much sense. I was close to carry my daughter to the Barcelona Rigo's clinic, I talked a lot with him, he seemed to be a really wise and good man.

ksmom0611
07-16-2015, 11:00 PM
I have done a great deal of research into the studies done with this method. I'm in the medical field and know how to read the medical terms, statistical analyses, research methodology used, etc. I was very, very hesitant to give any validity to this method that seemed so strange. However, with all that I have learned, and now experienced by being treated with the scroth method, I do believe in it more. I still have some doubts (as I'm trained to as a scientist), but there are definite positive results for many people. I have seen 2 schroth providers and it is nothing like any kind of physical therapy you have ever done. It's a completely different way of using your body to work with the spinal and muscular distortions we have. In my opinion, there isn't much else out there to try to prevent things from deteriorating (I.e. Curves worsening). If there is a chance this may work, it's worth trying it. I don't think it's possible to do it without a Schroth trained person helping. It's way too complicated and very targeted to each persons unique issues. Just my 2 cents.

Alistair
07-17-2015, 02:03 AM
I talked a lot with him, he seemed to be a really wise and good man.

I think that's a common trait with these doctors, even more so if they 'promote' a not so widespread technique.
I don't want to put everyone in the same basket especially as schroth has a clinic and so on, but for instance I spoke with these two guys in my country a few years ago
https://www.facebook.com/nicola.pica.1?fref=ts
http://www.correttiva.it/risultati/
they both claimed to significantly and permanently reduce curvatures in scoliosis patients, and on paper they seem nice people, they probably are, one of them told me he doesn't even want money.. how are we supposed to know the right path God knows, I just wish in 2015 things were more clear-cut when it comes to scoliosis but we're still here wondering what's real and what's bull**it..

Pooka1
07-17-2015, 06:23 AM
In general, when you have a bunch of different treatments, none of them work. If one of them worked there wouldn't be a bunch. So in the field of PT for scoliosis there is Schroth, yoga, torso rotation, chiro nonsense, and one million other options. It is no wonder the position of the SRS is that PT remains unproven.

We had several people using PT with their children who were on the group. Only one (Dingo) faithfully reports back the results every year. The rest are gone. If they were successful I hope them come back here and report it. Otherwise it looks like another bunch of failures of PT. That is consistent with the many options out there pointing to none of them working.

flerc
07-17-2015, 08:33 PM
In general, when you have a bunch of different treatments, none of them work. If one of them worked there wouldn't be a bunch. So in the field of PT for scoliosis there is Schroth, yoga, torso rotation, chiro nonsense, and one million other options.

Or may be that all or much of them only works in specific and different cases.


We had several people using PT with their children who were on the group. Only one (Dingo) faithfully reports back the results every year. The rest are gone. If they were successful I hope them come back here and report it.
I'm in touch with some of them and I'm sure they will never come back, regardless the outcomes they may obtain as surely all the people looking for a non surgical option who left this forum because not wanting to enter in an steril war.

flerc
07-17-2015, 08:53 PM
I have done a great deal of research into the studies done with this method. I'm in the medical field and know how to read the medical terms, statistical analyses, research methodology used, etc. I was very, very hesitant to give any validity to this method that seemed so strange. However, with all that I have learned, and now experienced by being treated with the scroth method, I do believe in it more. I still have some doubts (as I'm trained to as a scientist), but there are definite positive results for many people. I have seen 2 schroth providers and it is nothing like any kind of physical therapy you have ever done. It's a completely different way of using your body to work with the spinal and muscular distortions we have. In my opinion, there isn't much else out there to try to prevent things from deteriorating (I.e. Curves worsening). If there is a chance this may work, it's worth trying it. I don't think it's possible to do it without a Schroth trained person helping. It's way too complicated and very targeted to each persons unique issues. Just my 2 cents.

Did you read the book?. I have not medical training and I'm never sure to be really understanding what they says, Surely it was written by physiatrists although trainers are not as I know. One member of this forum said me she prefered Schroth because is not symetric as others as Yoga. I wish someday to have it in my country.

flerc
07-17-2015, 09:24 PM
I think that's a common trait with these doctors, even more so if they 'promote' a not so widespread technique.
I don't want to put everyone in the same basket especially as schroth has a clinic and so on, but for instance I spoke with these two guys in my country a few years ago
https://www.facebook.com/nicola.pica.1?fref=ts
http://www.correttiva.it/risultati/
they both claimed to significantly and permanently reduce curvatures in scoliosis patients, and on paper they seem nice people, they probably are, one of them told me he doesn't even want money.. how are we supposed to know the right path God knows, I just wish in 2015 things were more clear-cut when it comes to scoliosis but we're still here wondering what's real and what's bull**it..

Certainly it was not much common for me in these years to find proffesionals so humans as Dr. Rigo is. He is a worldwide recognized Dr., having not any need of a really extense chat with me as he had.
To know what kind of persons they are, I ask them scoliosis questions that nobody in the world seems to be able to answer. If they look misplaced or offended I think they are hidding something. And to judge the method I try to understand the principles behind them and analyze how much reasonable or not they are.

Pooka1
07-17-2015, 09:48 PM
regardless the outcomes they may obtain

If they were successful they would have come back to say so.

You are really making them look bad if they are successful and not sharing what worked. Are you really saying they are that selfish? Just because this forum is "sterile" they will deny information on how to successfully avoid surgery with PT? Is that right? Do you realize how irrational that sounds?

You are in touch with some of them. Have they been successful?

flerc
07-17-2015, 10:49 PM
To have some succesful is not a guarantee of a cure. If it would be some kind of succesful assuring it and they would achieve it, surely they'd say it here and in every site. They are normal people with emotions, feelings and they want the best for them or their loved ones, so they need to trust in what they are doing and to think that any success, few or much significant is something really good encouraging them to follow in the same path. So any normal and good person would have not any problem to understand how much negative would be to read negative comments, doubts, reasonings trying to turn the good news in a bad news. Certainly they were enough normal and sensible to leave this forum, nothing sterile of course and I think even warm for people looking for surgical solutions.

Pooka1
07-18-2015, 06:41 AM
To have some succesful is not a guarantee of a cure. If it would be some kind of succesful assuring it and they would achieve it, surely they'd say it here and in every site. They are normal people with emotions, feelings and they want the best for them or their loved ones, so they need to trust in what they are doing and to think that any success, few or much significant is something really good encouraging them to follow in the same path. So any normal and good person would have not any problem to understand how much negative would be to read negative comments, doubts, reasonings trying to turn the good news in a bad news. Certainly they were enough normal and sensible to leave this forum, nothing sterile of course and I think even warm for people looking for surgical solutions.

Just like with people who don't believe in medicine for religious reasons, they are welcome to do whatever they want for themselves. The situation is different with minor children. As that one surgeon said, bracing is for the parents. Yet bracing is a hard treatment. PT isn't in the same category but any amount of shaming a child to wear a brace or do PT is potentially harmful. And these treatments are overused and no guarantee of avoiding surgery for life which is the reason the parents and kids do the treatments.

Did any kids with large curves avoid surgery (or avoid getting to surgical range) with PT among those people you are in touch with?

Did PT work AT ALL??? Even one kid or one adult???

flerc
07-18-2015, 06:51 AM
If they were decided for surgery, surely you'd see them in the surgical section.

Pooka1
07-18-2015, 07:06 AM
If they were decided for surgery, surely you'd see them in the surgical section.

Did any of the people you are in contact with reach surgical range despite doing PT?

flerc
07-18-2015, 07:21 AM
Just like with people who don't believe in medicine for religious reasons, they are welcome to do whatever they want for themselves.

It seems we understand something very different for 'welcome'. I don't know who may feel that after reading your posts saying how much desperate/ignorant/irrational.. are people trying with non surgical methods in order to avoid a surgery.

flerc
07-18-2015, 07:33 AM
I have done a great deal of research into the studies done with this method. I'm in the medical field and know how to read the medical terms, statistical analyses, research methodology used, etc. I was very, very hesitant to give any validity to this method that seemed so strange. However, with all that I have learned, and now experienced by being treated with the scroth method, I do believe in it more. I still have some doubts (as I'm trained to as a scientist), but there are definite positive results for many people. I have seen 2 schroth providers and it is nothing like any kind of physical therapy you have ever done. It's a completely different way of using your body to work with the spinal and muscular distortions we have. In my opinion, there isn't much else out there to try to prevent things from deteriorating (I.e. Curves worsening). If there is a chance this may work, it's worth trying it. I don't think it's possible to do it without a Schroth trained person helping. It's way too complicated and very targeted to each persons unique issues. Just my 2 cents.

When did you begin with Schroth? Did you do something different before?

flerc
07-18-2015, 07:57 PM
Did PT work AT ALL??? Even one kid or one adult???

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/10/1/20/

flerc
07-18-2015, 08:29 PM
But sure it don't prove nothing for you, nothing may do it.
How many people do you think were discourage for you in these years? Hundreds, thousands? With how many others do you want to do the same? The non surgical sectiion of this forum, the greatest around the world, should never have existed!

Pooka1
07-19-2015, 05:42 AM
But sure it don't prove nothing for you, nothing may do it.
How many people do you think were discourage for you in these years? Hundreds, thousands? With how many others do you want to do the same? The non surgical sectiion of this forum, the greatest around the world, should never have existed!

People should be discouraged from using unproven treatments, especially ones that are expensive. They should especially be discouraged from brow-beating their kids into doing treatments to avoid surgery and then the kids still need surgery.

flerc
07-19-2015, 04:42 PM
If you wanted to convince people to take something so unnatural and irreversible as surgery is for them or their sons, you could have tried to do it in a not so much dishonest way as you did with yours immoral posts calling them desperates/ignorants/irrationals or even something worse for trying with non surgical options, confusing them saying all the time 'there is no evidence' something of course you cannot prove in any way. Of course people specially without a scientist background (something they have not why to have) was extremely influenced to think 'My God what I'm doing, this scientist researcher (something you never proved) is saying in the greatest forum ot the world that Pt don't work, brace also not and never nobody avoid a surgery with any non surgical method so I'm really stupid if I think it could work!' They should to takes legal actions because those posts. In a judgment just only 2 or 3 of your thousands of ummoral posts would be enough to prove how much non ethical this forum was allowing you to do what you always will do here.

flerc
07-19-2015, 04:46 PM
He admitted he failed, admitted PT can't control curvature

Copy a link where we may see him saying that or delete this please.

Pooka1
07-19-2015, 05:31 PM
Scoliosis Research Society official position on PT, inter alia, accessed on 19 July, 2015. (emphasis added)

http://www.srs.org/patient_and_family/FAQs/treatment_options_for_scoliosis.htm


What will make the spine go back to being straight again?

A scoliosis curve will not get straight on its own. Bracing will help it from getting worse. Surgery a spinal fusion is the only thing that will straighten out the spine, but it will not make it completely straight.


Will physical therapy help my scoliosis?

It has not been proven that physical therapy can help people with scoliosis.

Different physical therapy methods have been designed to offset the effects of scoliosis, and improve the shape and look of your body. There is some scientific evidence to show that physical therapy may help you to look straighter and improve your breathing. However, there is little evidence to show that physical therapy is more effective than doing nothing in stopping the curve from getting worse during growth.

If you have spinal problems in addition to your scoliosis, your doctor may prescribe physical therapy to address your specific needs.

Pooka1
07-19-2015, 05:33 PM
If you wanted to convince people

I am beyond caring about autonomous adults who live in demon-haunted worlds.

I care about their kids born into those imaginary worlds.

flerc
07-19-2015, 05:53 PM
Scoliosis Research Society official position on PT, inter alia, accessed on 19 July, 2015. (emphasis added)

http://www.srs.org/patient_and_family/FAQs/treatment_options_for_scoliosis.htm

Where I may see that Weiss is saying this?

Pooka1
07-19-2015, 05:56 PM
Where I may see that Weiss is saying this?

One of the forum members stated Weiss told him this in a communication. Do you remember?

I don't know if Weiss is in the SRS. I doubt it.

flerc
07-19-2015, 06:11 PM
I am beyond caring about autonomous adults who live in demon-haunted worlds.

I care about their kids born into those imaginary worlds.

You also tried to convince adults to see surgery for them as the only one option and certainly you have a proved success at least in one case.. and he was not precisely grateful!
Adults, parents of kids or teens or young adults.. is the same for you. In every case you used the same ummoral ruses. Is clear you cannot do it in other way.

Pooka1
07-19-2015, 07:14 PM
You also tried to convince adults to see surgery for them as the only one option and certainly you have a proved success at least in one case.. and he was not precisely grateful!
Adults, parents of kids or teens or young adults.. is the same for you. In every case you used the same ummoral ruses. Is clear you cannot do it in other way.

Concerned Dad, a scientist like myself focused on evidence, was convinced of my REPEATING the arguments of experts in this field about lack of evidence of bracing and took his child out of brace. She made it well past the point of skeletal maturity sub-surgical. It was only years after she was mature that her curve progressed. She was saved from failed bracing.

He LOOKED at the papers and saw the train wreck. That's all I did. Anyone who looks at the bracing literature honestly will see the same thing.

flerc
07-19-2015, 07:50 PM
I care about their kids.

What a way to take care about their kids! Trying they parents decide surgery for them discarding any other option! Nobody might know if at least just one of them could have avoided surgery! Immoral is not enough to say!

flerc
07-19-2015, 08:21 PM
Concerned Dad, a scientist like myself focused on evidence, was convinced of my REPEATING the arguments of experts in this field about lack of evidence of bracing and took his child out of brace. She made it well past the point of skeletal maturity sub-surgical. It was only years after she was mature that her curve progressed. She was saved from failed bracing.

He LOOKED at the papers and saw the train wreck. That's all I did. Anyone who looks at the bracing literature honestly will see the same thing.

Ok, you don't care what may happen with adults as that case I remember well. Also not young adults, no? So if they take a bad decision for their body after reading your posts is not your problem. What a strange interpretation about what is ethical and what not!
Why you don't prove you are a scientist? Kevin did it without any problem. He is enough honest and smart of course to know how much he may influence in people saying to be a scientist. If it would be true, something too much dificult to believe, it would sure be the only case around the world doing what you are doing here in the the way you are doing it.
Surgeons, physicians, may confuse some things for instance evidence with published evidence as it seems to be happening with you. And certainly show me a scientist saying as you say in a categorical way that braces don't work, they cannot avoid a surgery. It's enough evidence to think they can of course!

Pooka1
07-19-2015, 08:27 PM
as you say in a categorical way that braces don't work, they cannot avoid a surgery.

I NEVER said that.

I suggest you stop commenting if you can't follow along enough to know what I am saying.

flerc
07-19-2015, 08:36 PM
Do you want I quote all what you said about parents trying with braces? More general, with any non surgical option? Why you may said that since all what you said about non surgical methods, something so irrational for you as Tarot, astrology.. ? You denied how much logic is to see brace as a reasonable option to avoid surgery!

Pooka1
07-19-2015, 08:38 PM
Do you want I quote all what you said about parents trying with braces? More general, with any non surgical option? Why you may said that since all what you said about non surgical methods, something so irrational for you as Tarot, astrology.. ? You denied how much logic is to see brace as a reasonable option to avoid surgery!

You are not following along. You don't understand my arguments. I suggest you stop commenting.

flerc
07-19-2015, 08:39 PM
Ok they can avoid a surgery for you as probably taking a bath every day also can.

flerc
07-19-2015, 08:52 PM
It seems it was also what he saw so he decide to took his child out of brace. Where I may found this scientist in the net? Which is his name?

flerc
07-19-2015, 09:03 PM
One of the forum members stated Weiss told him this in a communication. Do you remember?

I don't know if Weiss is in the SRS. I doubt it.

So you cannot be sure about what you said:


He admitted he failed, admitted PT can't control curvature

Do you know how many people around the world may be reading your categorical sentence? Do you know that much of them may be considering Schroth as a way to avoid something so hard as surgery is? And you are saying that without being sure.
This is not the behaviour of a scientist! Of course is not!

Pooka1
07-19-2015, 09:05 PM
Get some rest, Fer. Try again later.

flerc
07-19-2015, 09:08 PM
This is not the behaviour of a scientist! Of course is not!
At least not honest ones.