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flerc
01-28-2017, 09:39 AM
Even worse, why they are not telling their patients that something new (if we realize that fusion has more than a century) and without its serious disadvantages is available for them?

titaniumed
01-28-2017, 02:17 PM
http://www.srs.org/patients-and-families/conditions-and-treatments/parents/scoliosis/early-onset-scoliosis/scoliosis-surgery-techniques

Flerc, On the SRS site, its mentioned under compression based growth friendly surgery.

They mention children under 35 degrees.

Interesting that magnetic rods are now listed as an option....(This was a brand new option a few years ago if you remember Anthony)

Nothing happens fast.

Ed

flerc
01-28-2017, 05:03 PM
Yes Ed, you are right, they are talking about Vbs, but certainly not about Vbt that may be used in bigger curves and not only in kids.. even in teens and adults!. Another good question is why they don't say this there. But the big question is why fusion surgeons are not saying nothing to their clients (patients as they says) about Vbs/Vbt if it's known that there are surgeons using those techniques around the world.

flerc
01-28-2017, 06:43 PM
Ed, if you would be a surgeon, wouldn't you say nothing about Vbs/Vbt to your clients?

Kay1974
01-28-2017, 07:56 PM
Is this Vetebral tethering available for me? I'm 42 and would much rather a fusion less surgery if it were an option?

Where in the USA is this performed and what Dr's are doing this for adults?

Maybe there is hope to avoid rods?

flerc
01-28-2017, 08:07 PM
For adults is possible but there are some requirements, one as I know is flexibility, there are some cases in young adults but also a 50 years old women. You shoud to write here https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/, they are excellent people really and can answer you everything you want to know.

Kay1974
01-28-2017, 08:19 PM
For adults is possible but there are some requirements, one as I know is flexibility, there are some cases in young adults but also a 50 years old women. You shoud to write here https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/, they are excellent people really and can answer you everything you want to know.

I am wondering when you say "flexible" what does that mean? As in can I bend side to side easy?

flerc
01-28-2017, 08:47 PM
I'm not totally sure about the concept they follows about flexibility, for me a spine is flexible if without the effect of gravity force (for instance being lying down) a very much significant degrees reduction is achieved. It would be impossible with a stiff spine.

flerc
01-28-2017, 09:51 PM
I know that Spinecor Drs (no chiropractors) follows the same flexibility concept. They takes an x-ray standing up and other lying down and see the degrees, if the last is not 40% smaller, they do not put the Spinecor. Even in adults bone remodeling is possible but it would probably be impossible if the curve is not reduced. Any way I recommend you to enter the Face group.

titaniumed
01-28-2017, 11:33 PM
Is this Vetebral tethering available for me? I'm 42 and would much rather a fusion less surgery if it were an option?

Where in the USA is this performed and what Dr's are doing this for adults?

Maybe there is hope to avoid rods?

Melisse

Tethering “could” be an option for you, but you would have to talk to one of the tethering surgeons very soon. The facebook tethering group would be a good idea to learn more.

The problem is that NOBODY wants surgery and we all wait until there is a major pain problem. Nobody rushes into surgery.....

You would have to make contact with Dr Betz or Dr Lonner up in NJ and NYC.

You might be able to avoid rods.... Tethering is very interesting since it spares muscle stripping and pedicle breach’s since the screws are driven in sideways through the vertebral body. There are no long term studies since it’s a new procedure.

Bending x-rays (side to side) are what surgeons use to determine spine flexibility for determining fusion length. All scoliosis surgical patients do these “bender” x rays. Kids bend out like rubber, but we have a tendency to stiffen up as we age. Many seniors lose it completely and self autofuse.

Ed

Kay1974
01-28-2017, 11:55 PM
[QUOTE=titaniumed;168308]Melisse

Tethering “could” be an option for you, but you would have to talk to one of the tethering surgeons very soon. The facebook tethering group would be a good idea to learn more.

The problem is that NOBODY wants surgery and we all wait until there is a major pain problem. Nobody rushes into surgery.....

You would have to make contact with Dr Betz or Dr Lonner up in NJ and NYC.

You might be able to avoid rods.... Tethering is very interesting since it spares muscle stripping and pedicle breach’s since the screws are driven in sideways through the vertebral body. There are no long term studies since it’s a new procedure.

Bending x-rays (side to side) are what surgeons use to determine spine flexibility for determining fusion length. All scoliosis surgical patients do these “bender” x rays. Kids bend out like rubber, but we have a tendency to stiffen up as we age. Many seniors lose it completely and self autofuse.

Ed[/QUOTE

I definitely think I should talk to one of these Dr's that perform this tethering method. Thank you for the names Ed.

I haven't had bending xrays yet. I don't have major pain but would say it's low level pain mostly. My MRI did not show and disc herniations.

Do you know of any adults that have had this done and if so, how it went?

titaniumed
01-29-2017, 02:53 AM
[QUOTE=titaniumed;168308]
Do you know of any adults that have had this done and if so, how it went?
I do not. But would love to see some testimonials... adult testimonial's would be better.

If you have scoliosis, you should visit a scoliosis surgeon. It doesn’t matter if you are having surgery or not, but this very important. Just because you visit doesn’t mean your having surgery. Since you have not picked a scoliosis surgeon, picking one who has experience with tethering would make more sense since you are 42 with curves that might get that answer you want.

Funny how the SRS site mentions compression based “friendly” surgery. They added “friendly” onto a major spine deformity procedure. It’s like using friendly to describe the separation of conjoined twins (at the head) which is a push on their part to help relax and promote acceptance of something that scares the dickens out of all of us.....I think that if they decided to use the word friendly, they must be gaining confidence in the method. I don’t think the president of SRS would allow the word if they didn’t at least feel some confidence.

Last time I looked at stapling studies, the stats were not something I was impressed with. Basically it ran 50%, about the same as long term weather forecasting. I could be wrong, and someone can post studies that prove otherwise. I have not looked at any tethering data.

On a sidenote...I read a very disturbing story about a 55 year old who had a history of uterine cancer. She was released a few years back after her cancer therapy and bought an RV and traveled all over and has a great blog. Yesterday, I read that she was having spine pain, starting as a muscle pull, was in Mexico and she went in after a few weeks of this pain only to find out that her cancer wrapped around her spine. She had surgery in Mexico and that they could only remove 90% of this cancer and the docs are giving her a year to live.
https://winnieviews.blogspot.com/2017/01/life-turns-to-new-direction.html#more

We as scolis live in pain....many of us get used to it. As we reach our elder years, do we need to be running in for x-rays on every back pain event? I don’t know what to think about this now....I guess after countless x-rays, major surgeries, flouroscopy, CT scans, I guess one more set doesn’t matter much, does it?

“If you don’t plant a tree, you will never sit in the shade” –Warren Buffet-
Of course coming from Uncle Warren, it sounds like sound financial advice, but this also applies to scoliosis patients. You don’t know how the tree will grow, or if it will fall down, but if you don’t plant it, there is no shade. Scoliosis surgery is like this....

Ed

Pooka1
01-29-2017, 08:40 AM
[QUOTE=Kay1974;168309]Last time I looked at stapling studies, the stats were not something I was impressed with. Basically it ran 50%, about the same as long term weather forecasting. I could be wrong, and someone can post studies that prove otherwise. I have not looked at any tethering data.

I hope Maria comes on and tells us the straight dope but last I read (a long while ago), stapling tends to work in cases that have a lower expectation of progression. So it is most apparently successful in lumbar and smaller T curves. That suggests it is not changing the natural history much. That said, it seems to have been a complete success in Maria's son... large T curve reduced greatly.

Because they do tethering on larger curves as against the consensus to fuse large T curves in growing kids, I think they have high hopes it will change natural histories to a great extent. I am keeping my eye on tethering in case my daughters ever have issues with their unfused lumbars. The one kid has a pretty straight lumbar and is back in the general population per the surgeon. Of course I, with no scoliosis, am in the general population and have herniated two discs, one in my early 30s. The other kid has a small residual curve that make need attention in the out years.

flerc
01-29-2017, 09:23 AM
Kay, how many degrees do you have? What was you doing up to now?

Kay1974
01-29-2017, 12:50 PM
Ed, I can see your point about all the test and radiation that us Scolis have to go through in a lifespan, it seems to be never ending, especially if you want to stay ahead of your curve.

I am happy to see this tethering method offered, if not for me atleast for the possibity if my 11 year old daughter inherits this twist from me.

My spine was around 30 degrees at age 15, it was 36 degrees at the age of 28 and before I went through pregnancy. It is now 42 degrees at the age of 42 and has remained that for about 2 years.

I wore a Boston brace ages 12-15 approx, and today focus on keeping my core tight by basically sucking in my gut and also sitting tall and visually keeping spine from slouching. I've learned some Scroth and yoga, and have taken a few certain stretches from that And spend about 30 minutes a day doing them. It has helped me. I don't do them consecutively but rather 10 minutes in the morning before work, 10 minutes mid day, and 10 minutes after work.

The main thing for me is really focusing on my attitude and stress when it comes to having a less than perfect spine. I read a book called mindfulness and it's helping me to not focus on the negatives of health issues and to deep breath and meditate.

I really appreciate the support from this site, we're all in this together. Just nicer to know others with the same types of issues who can relate at a deeper understanding.

titaniumed
01-29-2017, 02:01 PM
Ed, if you would be a surgeon, wouldn't you say nothing about Vbs/Vbt to your clients?
Flerc, Tough post....

If I were a ship captain, would I recommend buying a plane ticket?....Probably not. If I were trained in stapling or tethering I would mention it as an option....Surgeons should “offer” and “educate” about procedures, not “sell” procedures. We as scoliosis surgical candidates need time to make informed decisions. That’s why a patient based forum like this one is so important. Testimonials are the truth. Multiple testimonials are even better.

My surgeries came out great considering the magnitude, but I cant say get it done..... I see bad x-rays and know that there will be improvement with surgery but if something were to go wrong, I cant handle the guilt. This comes from respecting the members who have suffered here on the forum all these years. This comes from knowing the pain they are in and feeling that fire. I did that battle and came back so surgical complications have had an affect on me. They also don’t have to be hardware or fusion related complications.

Surgery is inherently dangerous.

But can save and improve lives and be an amazing thing.

There is no easy answer.

Ed

titaniumed
01-29-2017, 02:34 PM
The main thing for me is really focusing on my attitude and stress when it comes to having a less than perfect spine. I read a book called mindfulness and it's helping me to not focus on the negatives of health issues and to deep breath and meditate.


I don’t have a problem with having a less than perfect spine. I never have.

I have a brother with an extremely serious and rare Kleinfelters, and one of my best friends growing up is a Thalidomide baby. Phocomelia. His mom was in England in 1958.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocomelia

Put it this way, I am not pro drug....

My father also had Lou Gehrigs....

In comparison, we don’t have any problems......Life is good.

Jim has a wooden leg....we bonded pretty tight over 50 years, heck I even drank champagne out of his wooden leg many years ago. LOL

Ed

flerc
01-29-2017, 04:31 PM
Flerc, Tough post....

If I were a ship captain, would I recommend buying a plane ticket?....Probably not. If I were trained in stapling or tethering I would mention it as an option....Surgeons should “offer” and “educate” about procedures, not “sell” procedures. We as scoliosis surgical candidates need time to make informed decisions. That’s why a patient based forum like this one is so important. Testimonials are the truth. Multiple testimonials are even better.

My surgeries came out great considering the magnitude, but I cant say get it done..... I see bad x-rays and know that there will be improvement with surgery but if something were to go wrong, I cant handle the guilt. This comes from respecting the members who have suffered here on the forum all these years. This comes from knowing the pain they are in and feeling that fire. I did that battle and came back so surgical complications have had an affect on me. They also don’t have to be hardware or fusion related complications.

Surgery is inherently dangerous.

But can save and improve lives and be an amazing thing.

There is no easy answer.

Ed

Ed, you are a great fighter and sure a good person, so if you were a ship captain and people would ask you what to do to get a ticket to arrive to Australia in hours, otherwise something terrible may occurs for them or their sons, I'm sure that at least you would tell them that something as planes exists, not only ships as they thinks.
You proved with many non surgical options and none worked for you but you cannot ask to you surgeon what kind of person is he because Vbt was not available for you yet. But what about people having fusion now and never heard about Vbt?. And certainly, what they should to think about this forum if they also had trust in it and nobody here even old members never said nothing to them about Vbt?

flerc
01-29-2017, 05:04 PM
My spine was around 30 degrees at age 15, it was 36 degrees at the age of 28 and before I went through pregnancy. It is now 42 degrees at the age of 42 and has remained that for about 2 years.

I wore a Boston brace ages 12-15 approx, and today focus on keeping my core tight by basically sucking in my gut and also sitting tall and visually keeping spine from slouching. I've learned some Scroth and yoga, and have taken a few certain stretches from that And spend about 30 minutes a day doing them. It has helped me. I don't do them consecutively but rather 10 minutes in the morning before work, 10 minutes mid day, and 10 minutes after work.

The main thing for me is really focusing on my attitude and stress when it comes to having a less than perfect spine. I read a book called mindfulness and it's helping me to not focus on the negatives of health issues and to deep breath and meditate.



Surely what you are doing or Gpr, Iyengar Yoga or Ostheopathy would be enough for you, even Spinecor for adults would be too much.

Kay1974
01-29-2017, 07:27 PM
Let me just claify, I've never cared that my spine was twisted and deformed, what I've started caring more about is getting older and feeling more pain in my back because of the curve and the unknown and the watching And waiting approach.

Ed, I can't imagine what that was like to experience that with your dad. I'm so sorry. I've never been one to ever want to take a pill But I also realize now, that there are pharmaceuticals that help folks function when taken safely and I'm all for it if I need it. I can also say it would be nice for our state to finally get on board with medical marijuana but I guess that could be another post.

That wooden leg story though... That just is good stuff there, it has to be:) really these kinds of stories are what carry us all through and make life a little more fun and interesting.

I think a scoliosis curve for me is about adapting. 6 years ago I was a runner, But I had to give that up as my back and knee were started to hurt. So then I settled for walking at a fast speed. Now in this last 6 months, I can't walk fast so just walk at a regular speed and I'm ok with that. I can't lift anything heavy and Im careful about my body movements. Bending and kneeling are out for me. When I get out of my car, I swing both legs around and it doesn't bite so much anymore. I'm not sure what else I need to change but as I continue to age, I'm sure it will be more.

I know this sounds weird, but I am starting a water aquatic class this week with mostly older folks and I'm excited. I feel so comfortable with 60 and older folks because I move like that now and I don't feel as much pressure to hang out and relate with each other.






Ed[/QUOTE]

burdle
01-30-2017, 04:51 AM
I look at it the other way... The guys doing VBT are part of mainstream medicine- if they thought that this was the way forward for more patients they would be banging on the doors of the fusion guys telling them! VBT seems to be for 'adults' as well as kids but adult is anything from ages 18 upwards.... A curve in an 18year old is likely to be 'flexible'- a curve in a 30-40 year old is not!

Pooka1
01-30-2017, 06:16 AM
The VBT guys ARE the fusion guys. They are a subset of the fusion guys who have extra training in VBT. The reason all fusion guys don't have the VBT training is because it is new/experimental.

burdle
01-30-2017, 07:30 AM
The VBT guys ARE the fusion guys. They are a subset of the fusion guys who have extra training in VBT. The reason all fusion guys don't have the VBT training is because it is new/experimental.

I agree - if they thought that fusion surgery was not viable any more the VBT guys would say so- I don't believe in conspiracies.

flerc
01-30-2017, 07:36 AM
A curve in an 18year old is likely to be 'flexible'- a curve in a 30-40 year old is not!
Is not impossible and is very much possible with right treatments.

flerc
01-30-2017, 07:43 AM
The VBT guys ARE the fusion guys. They are a subset of the fusion guys who have extra training in VBT. The reason all fusion guys don't have the VBT training is because it is new/experimental.

What is new or experimental for you???? Ok, you may say "new" if you are comparing this technique with the one century old fusion.

Pooka1
01-30-2017, 07:47 AM
I agree - if they thought that fusion surgery was not viable any more the VBT guys would say so- I don't believe in conspiracies.

Exactly NOBODY thinks fusion is not viable any more other than a few lay people who, NOT coincidentally, are always pushing conspiracy theories among surgeons.

The hope is that VBT and perhaps stapling will replace fusion. VBT is certainly better in terms of ROM because it preserves the front-back motion but the side to side motion is constrained almost like a fusion. I think the main question going forward is that if tethering can't get the spine as straight as fusion can then the discs below it will have more uneven loading compared to fusion and those will be compromised more or faster than if the spine was straightened more. My one daughter was hyper-corrected to the point that she does not technically have scoliosis. The surgeon told her to her face that surgery is one-stop shopping for her. I later asked him why and he said because of her degree of correction. He did not tell my other daughter that who has a residual curve in her lumbar. It is my fervent hope that if either girl ever needs more surgery, they can get tethering so as to preserve the front-back motion of the lumbar.

flerc
01-30-2017, 08:21 AM
I look at it the other way... The guys doing VBT are part of mainstream medicine- if they thought that this was the way forward for more patients they would be banging on the doors of the fusion guys telling them! VBT seems to be for 'adults' as well as kids

Probably to bang on the doors of the fusion guys is useless regardless if is a news for kids, teens or adults..

flerc
01-30-2017, 08:47 AM
Exactly NOBODY thinks fusion is not viable any more other than a few lay people who, NOT coincidentally, are always pushing conspiracy theories among surgeons.


The only "conspirancy theories" (in fact defamations and calumnies) in this forum are against non surgical treatments.. I may say coincidently the same people saying that Vbt is not a good option yet.. certainly I'm not talking about conspiracy theories against Vbt here, but is really very much strange that that people against non surgical treatments here, never talk about Vbt in this section. If just only the 1% of your daily posts would mention Vbt, it would be known for every people thinking in surgery around the world!.

flerc
01-30-2017, 09:09 AM
The VBT guys ARE the fusion guys. They are a subset of the fusion guys who have extra training in VBT. The reason all fusion guys don't have the VBT training is because it is new/experimental.

.. but certainly this seems to be a conspirancy theory against Vbt!.

burdle
01-30-2017, 09:42 AM
.. but certainly this seems to be a conspirancy theory against Vbt!.

Can I ask why you think there is a conspiracy against VBT?

Certainly surgeons are doing VBT. Certainly surgeons are still doing Fusion on some patients. Why do you think that your opinion that no-one should have Fusion surgery is more valid than a trained surgeon?

No-one who posts here is advised against VBT - nobody who posts here is advised fusion surgery? ( as far as I can tell). Where is your evidence that apart from your own personal perspective that there is any one blocking VBT?

flerc
01-30-2017, 10:28 AM
Can I ask why you think there is a conspiracy against VBT?



I have just said 'it seems to be a cosnspirancy' against Vbt. Do you understand the difference?.

flerc
01-30-2017, 10:29 AM
And cetainly why are you talking about a conspirancy against surgeons here?

flerc
01-30-2017, 10:31 AM
Why do you think that your opinion that no-one should have Fusion surgery is more valid than a trained surgeon?




Quote where I said there it or be honest and delete it!

titaniumed
01-30-2017, 10:51 AM
Playing hookie today....Bubonic plague has set in....a flea made the critical decision to jump, and ruin my day. Ha ha

The spine surgeons will go into their spine meetings which are held globally and discuss stapling and tethering.....I couldn’t imagine ANY scoliosis surgeon not being interested in something like this.

What’s very important is that there is success. The outcomes have to be stimulating enough that other surgeons get motivated to train in the new techniques.

As far as tethering is concerned, they can do hybrid and fuse certain levels for various reasons and tether the levels that offer hope. There will be compromised levels that will need discectomies, or other interventions. (mostly adults)

What would be the cats meow would be to have a device that works like Magec that can control the cord tensioning from outside the body without doing another surgery. Calculating the tension has got to be tricky due to the variances in stiffness in each patient.

We can only hope that the majority of the outcomes is positive enough to tip the scales of indecision.

Ed

flerc
01-30-2017, 10:57 AM
Nobody responds why fusion only surgeons don't tell to their clients that something like Vbt exists!.

burdle
01-30-2017, 11:19 AM
Nobody responds why fusion only surgeons don't tell to their clients that something like Vbt exists!.

How do you know that they don't talk about VBT? - if it is not an option why would they mention it unless asked ? It is NOT a replacement option for all fusion surgery. Some curves can be managed by VBT but not all. I assume that as VBT becomes more and more commonplace it will be offered to more and more people.

titaniumed
01-30-2017, 11:20 AM
Nobody responds why fusion only surgeons don't tell to their clients that something like Vbt exists!.

I’m sure that if a perfect tethering candidate walked in that a referral would happen.....It depends on the individual surgeon.

One of the famous surgeons many years ago wrote articles on minimally invasive surgery while in its infancy, he was quite hesitant.

Now, things are different. MIS is now quite popular......

Nothing happens fast.

Ed

titaniumed
01-30-2017, 11:52 AM
Minimally invasive surgery....(Through portals)

For example, XLIF is done this way, through the side. My shoulder rebuild was done this way, so was my gall bladder removal.

The cords are either UHMW or PET. These are plastics, and yes they can stretch under tension.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_terephthalate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene


The big question is when is the failure point? Like pulling a rubber band apart. Will it break and when?

Ed

titaniumed
01-30-2017, 12:04 PM
The question that was deleted was “What is MIS?”

This will explain post #38

With unanswered questions lurking like failure point, do you tether 100,000 teenage girls or do you wait for results?

I am sure the insurance companies would have some interest in this.

This is why things take time.....

Ed

richardis
01-30-2017, 12:55 PM
The question that was deleted was “What is MIS?”

This will explain post #38

With unanswered questions lurking like failure point, do you tether 100,000 teenage girls or do you wait for results?

I am sure the insurance companies would have some interest in this.

This is why things take time.....

Ed
Thanks for sharing, Ed! I deleted the post because I google it and I found the answer so I I wouldn't bother you to answer. When I deleted it there was no answer. Sorry. but thanks for your insightful answer that expanded the knowledge I could find online.


I did mention that insurance companies are a business, but I could tell you why:

I don't live in the US. Where I live there is public-funded health care and private practitioners. My country is poor so I was not admitted to surgery in the public because the state could not afford it. But I was lucky enough to have paid premiums for a private insurance company so that when I needed surgery they covered part of the cost. But the insurance company has not given the money I had paid them through the years. That's why I said it is a business. I am being honest.

I don't know the reality in the US.

flerc
01-30-2017, 01:18 PM
How do you know that they don't talk about VBT? - if it is not an option why would they mention it unless asked ? It is NOT a replacement option for all fusion surgery. Some curves can be managed by VBT but not all. I assume that as VBT becomes more and more commonplace it will be offered to more and more people.

I know that in all spanish spoken countries surgeons are not talking about Vbt. If you doubt, enter as I did in all scoliosis sites and you can verify that NOBODY knows about Vbt, even in Spain where it is used in an hsopital, and ALL of them visits surgeons since years ago so the logic conclusion is that surgeons didn't mentioned it to them and they are not ignorants, they know about it. In this forum I don't see nobody evaluating Vbt, certainly it seems that at least few people know about it. Certainly a young women said some months ago that her surgeons didn't tell her, otherwise probably she woud had not decided to have fusion as she did.

flerc
01-30-2017, 01:32 PM
'in all spanish spoken countries surgeons are not talking about Vbt.' the same happens in Brasil.
Certainly in a lot of scolsiis Face groups in Usa or Canada nobody knows about Vbt and of course all of them goes with surgeons too.

richardis
01-30-2017, 01:40 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but doing an osteotomy (on inserting something into the body of the vertebrae) in each vertebrae deformed so they get the normal shape isn' a better option to VBS or VBT? I am bringing up this option for adults of course. But I mean, if they do that mobility is not lost and the vertebrae will get the normal shape to straighten up the spine. Of course, I am getting into the realm of science-fiction, but it may be possible. What do you think?

And talking about fused-bones, I am pretty sure that in the next years it will be possible to reverse a fusion. If they know how to do a fusion, scientists can find the answer to unfuse it by reverse-engineering the technique. If we use science everything is possible.

flerc
01-30-2017, 01:51 PM
And talking about fused-bones, I am pretty sure that in the next years it will be possible to reverse a fusion. If they know how to do a fusion, scientists can find the answer to unfuse it by reverse-engineering the technique. If we use science everything is possible.

I thought I was the only one around the world talking about that possibility. The problem is really not what may science do or not but what people using it want to do or not..

flerc
01-30-2017, 02:03 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but doing an osteotomy (on inserting something into the body of the vertebrae) in each vertebrae deformed so they get the normal shape isn' a better option to VBS or VBT? I am bringing up this option for adults of course. But I mean, if they do that mobility is not lost and the vertebrae will get the normal shape to straighten up the spine. Of course, I am getting into the realm of science-fiction, but it may be possible. What do you think?


As I know is mainly used in not idhiopatic scoliosis and only during growth. In an adults I think it cannot be enough because all the other deformed tissues. Something like Spinecor for adults sure should to be used in order to hold the spine straight. But in adults bone remodeling is a fact, so if the spine remains straigt with Vbt (or Spinecor for adults), vertebraes may be normalized.

flerc
01-30-2017, 02:10 PM
I’m sure that if a perfect tethering candidate walked in that a referral would happen.....It depends on the individual surgeon.

One of the famous surgeons many years ago wrote articles on minimally invasive surgery while in its infancy, he was quite hesitant.

Now, things are different. MIS is now quite popular......

Nothing happens fast.
Fusion surgeons should stops to call this kind of surgery MINIMALLY invasive surgery.. is difficult to imagine something more invasive than fusion!. It remebers me a lawyer defending a criminal saying that he performed a minimally harmfull way for kill..

flerc
01-30-2017, 02:30 PM
Playing hookie today....Bubonic plague has set in....a flea made the critical decision to jump, and ruin my day. Ha ha

The spine surgeons will go into their spine meetings which are held globally and discuss stapling and tethering.....I couldn’t imagine ANY scoliosis surgeon not being interested in something like this.

What’s very important is that there is success. The outcomes have to be stimulating enough that other surgeons get motivated to train in the new techniques.

As far as tethering is concerned, they can do hybrid and fuse certain levels for various reasons and tether the levels that offer hope. There will be compromised levels that will need discectomies, or other interventions. (mostly adults)

What would be the cats meow would be to have a device that works like Magec that can control the cord tensioning from outside the body without doing another surgery. Calculating the tension has got to be tricky due to the variances in stiffness in each patient.

We can only hope that the majority of the outcomes is positive enough to tip the scales of indecision.

Ed
Ed, surely this thread will be closed or deleted soon. Every kind of speculations about possible Vbt limitations don't explain why only fusion surgeons are not letting know about Vbt, of course is something that people thinking in surgery should to know.

flerc
01-30-2017, 02:46 PM
Exactly NOBODY thinks fusion is not viable any more other than a few lay people who, NOT coincidentally, are always pushing conspiracy theories among surgeons.

The hope is that VBT and perhaps stapling will replace fusion. VBT is certainly better in terms of ROM because it preserves the front-back motion but the side to side motion is constrained almost like a fusion.

May you post where did you read this???

burdle
01-31-2017, 04:26 AM
I have just said 'it seems to be a cosnspirancy' against Vbt. Do you understand the difference?.

Am I going mad- Flerc says there seems to be a conspiracy against VBT and I asked why does Flerc think this?

No I don't understand the difference?

flerc
01-31-2017, 06:47 AM
You seems to have an understanding problem, you asked me something different and you don't understand the difference. Is not the first time

Posted by burdle View Post

Why do you think that your opinion that no-one should have Fusion surgery is more valid than a trained surgeon?

B][/B]

Posted by Flerc

Quote where I said it or be honest and delete it!

B][/B]

Don't forget to do it!. Or do you want people thinking that you are dishonest?

Pooka1
01-31-2017, 06:48 AM
Am I going mad- Flerc says there seems to be a conspiracy against VBT and I asked why does Flerc think this?

No I don't understand the difference?

You are not going mad. He thinks it because he is an emotional conspiracy theorist against science and medicine.

flerc
01-31-2017, 07:49 AM
You seems to be altered.. take it easy and take in mind that people knows that defaming, attacking and lying as you always do in non surgical section is not the way to help people in a forum. I was not sure but I thought that you wanted to help people decided to have surgery, but is far to be what you are showing. Your purpose is to lead me to responds to your attacks so the moderator can came to close/delete the thread as always finish our discussions. She allows to you to do attacks insulte or what you want but not to me.
So try to be honest at least in this sections and stop to confussing people. Delete what you said about Vbt (experimental treatment, not allows to bend more than fusion..) or prove it!

burdle
01-31-2017, 12:01 PM
You seems to be altered.. take it easy and take in mind that people knows that defaming, attacking and lying as you always do in non surgical section is not the way to help people in a forum. I was not sure but I thought that you wanted to help people decided to have surgery, but is far to be what you are showing. Your purpose is to lead me to responds to your attacks so the moderator can came to close/delete the thread as always finish our discussions. She allows to you to do attacks insulte or what you want but not to me.
So try to be honest at least in this sections and stop to confussing people. Delete what you said about Vbt (experimental treatment, not allows to bend more than fusion..) or prove it!


Some of what you conclude is really down to subtlety of expression. your English is good but it does let you down. Experimental treatment does not mean treatment still at laboratory stage. Literally it does but in common usage it means not used used across the whole spectrum... YET. VBT is only done by a few doctors, - they are waiting for results - hence experimental . In UK I believe surgeons are not using it while they wait for evidence of efficacy. I understand that you were looking at Spanish web sites- maybe their medics are waiting too.

burdle
01-31-2017, 12:04 PM
Quote where I said there it or be honest and delete it!

It is a reasonable conclusion from your previous posts. You are stating that VBT is not being mentioned as a treatment! It is reasonable to conclude that as surgeons are still recommending fusion that you are of the opinion that they should not be!

flerc
01-31-2017, 02:10 PM
In any way, the only problem seems to be that I speak only in a precise and logical way, as if I would be demonstraying a Maths theorem and people without a logic mind, often has difficult to interpret me, but is impossible for me to talk in other way.
Nobody in the world with a logic mind may (honestly) say as you did, that I said something implying 'no-one should have Fusion surgery'. Clearly you are not able (probably because nobody can) to quote where I said it or something equivalent. Certainly what you said 'You are stating that VBT is not being mentioned as a treatment! It is reasonable to conclude that as surgeons are still recommending fusion that you are of the opinion that they should not be!' is absurd and tipicall of someone without a logical reasoning.

flerc
01-31-2017, 02:18 PM
But we are not here to talk about you or me. I'm not obey to know what surgeons understand for 'experimental' but it would not be right if they are doing the same that with other concepts ('minimally invasive', 'normal life'..) giving them a name that has nothing to do.
Clearly nobody may says that something that is used since many years and by many surgeons around the world is something experimental.
I'm not totally sure about what you means with this 'in common usage it means not used used across the whole spectrum', but if it is what I suppose, then you should to say that rigid brace are experimental yet.

burdle
02-01-2017, 04:30 AM
In any way, the only problem seems to be that I speak only in a precise and logical way, as if I would be demonstraying a Maths theorem and people without a logic mind, often has difficult to interpret me, but is impossible for me to talk in other way.
Nobody in the world with a logic mind may (honestly) say as you did, that I said something implying 'no-one should have Fusion surgery'. Clearly you are not able (probably because nobody can) to quote where I said it or something equivalent. Certainly what you said 'You are stating that VBT is not being mentioned as a treatment! It is reasonable to conclude that as surgeons are still recommending fusion that you are of the opinion that they should not be!' is absurd and tipicall of someone without a logical reasoning.

I am part of MENSA - just think on that... I don't wish to be rude but your English is really not up to any standard whereby you could use it in any debate about science!

Pooka1
02-01-2017, 06:39 AM
I am part of MENSA - just think on that... I don't wish to be rude but your English is really not up to any standard whereby you could use it in any debate about science!

Excellent! Way beyond cool, Burdle.

His English is passable. His command of the scientific facts is not. That claim about 50* being an automatic surgery trigger in an adult is shocking given he has been reading posts here for years. He either forgot a million posts or didn't understand them. The later possibility is why I said he sounded like a chiro... near total ignorance.

And speaking of chiro, ScoliSmart is blithely saying they don't do VBT but think it is the way to go for surgical cases. But the way they say they don't do VBT completely obscures the fact that not only do they not do VBT but they don't do any surgery because they are chiros and chiro school is more like a trade school and the near complete opposite of medical school in every way (admission criteria, facts themselves, critical thinking, etc.).

When I type "VBT adult", the first sit ethat pops up is ScoliSmart. https://www.treatingscoliosis.com/vertebral-body-tethering-or-stapling/


While ScoliSMART clinics do not perform or offer these procedures, w

I wonder if they admit anywhere they are not medical doctors. There are chiro sites that just refer to the chiro as "Dr." and NEVER admit he is a chiro and not an MD. We need better regulations on this.

burdle
02-01-2017, 06:48 AM
Excellent! Way beyond cool, Burdle.


When I type "VBT adult", the first sit ethat pops up is ScoliSmart. https://www.treatingscoliosis.com/vertebral-body-tethering-or-stapling/



I wonder if they admit anywhere they are not medical doctors. There are chiro sites that just refer to the chiro as "Dr." and NEVER admit he is a chiro and not an MD. We need better regulations on this.

Exactly- this is why I have been in contact with SRS and Dr Betz. personally. Scolismart claim that they work with surgeons including Dr Betz. them ? I have asked Betz to clarify and to a certain extent he has replied that he does not but he does see a need to communicate with them? SRS maintain that they do not recommend or endorse in any way Scolismart but they are not going far enough to publicly say so.

Pooka1
02-01-2017, 07:20 AM
Exactly- this is why I have been in contact with SRS and Dr Betz. personally. Scolismart claim that they work with surgeons including Dr Betz. them ? I have asked Betz to clarify and to a certain extent he has replied that he does not but he does see a need to communicate with them? SRS maintain that they do not recommend or endorse in any way Scolismart but they are not going far enough to publicly say so.

There is some issue between chiros and medical doctors that arose years ago with the latter trying to effectively shut down the former. I think there was some settlement and now medical doctors seem loath to go after chiros. This is just my impression.

Pooka1
02-01-2017, 07:31 AM
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-war-against-chiropractors/


The Wilk Case

In 1976 an antitrust lawsuit was filed by Chester A. Wilk and 4 other chiropractors (one of whom later dropped out) against not only the AMA but also against 9 other medical organizations such as the American College of Radiology, and against 4 individuals. This began an odyssey lasting 14 years, with two separate federal trials, a series of appeals, complicated legal wrangling, and conflicting evidence. Some of the defendants settled out of court; 6 organizations and one individual went to trial. The AMA won, but the judge was accused of improperly instructing the jury and allowing inaccurate documents into evidence, so there was a second trial. In 1987, Judge Susan Getzendanner dismissed the charges against some of the defendants but found the AMA guilty of violating Section 1 (but not Section 2) of the Sherman Antitrust Act. No damages were awarded. The AMA was only required to pay the plaintiffs’ legal costs and to change its policy and inform MDs that they could associate with chiropractors. Chiropractors crowed about their victory, but it actually did little to change “discriminatory” practices or to enhance the reputation of chiropractic.

The decision was not by any stretch of the imagination an endorsement of chiropractic. The judge said:

The study of how the five original named plaintiffs diagnosed and actually treated patients with common symptoms was particularly impressive. This study demonstrated that the plaintiffs do not use common methods in treating common symptoms and that the treatment of patients appears to be undertaken on an ad hoc rather than on a scientific basis… I am persuaded that the dominant factor was patient care and the AMA’s subjective belief that chiropractic was not in the best interests of patients… [but] this concern for scientific method in patient care could have been adequately satisfied in a manner less restrictive of competition.

flerc
02-01-2017, 07:41 AM
I am part of MENSA - just think on that... I don't wish to be rude but your English is really not up to any standard whereby you could use it in any debate about science!

Prove it! Here you only show a worrying fault of logics., and certainlyiIf you would be so smart you could talk with me in Spanish..

flerc
02-01-2017, 07:47 AM
And don't forget to delete this, since it seems very clear you cannot prove I said that: 'Why do you think that your opinion that no-one should have Fusion surgery' Or do you want people thinking you are dishonest.. or do you want MENSA folks demanding you?

Pooka1
02-01-2017, 07:48 AM
Prove it! Here you only show a worrying fault of logics., and certainlyiIf you would be so smart you could talk with me in Spanish..

This comment is irrational.

flerc
02-01-2017, 08:07 AM
It is irrational for people not able to understand it.

flerc
02-01-2017, 08:16 AM
I am part of MENSA - just think on that... I don't wish to be rude but your English is really not up to any standard whereby you could use it in any debate about science!

Certainly smart people, as Scientist necesarily are, has not any probem to debate with me althoug my poor English. Even it is not a scientist forum (did you realized it?) you may see my large and productives debates with KevinMc, who we may say to be the only one scientist researcher here, since he proved it.

flerc
02-01-2017, 09:08 AM
Excellent! Way beyond cool, Burdle.

His English is passable. His command of the scientific facts is not. That claim about 50* being an automatic surgery trigger in an adult is shocking given he has been reading posts here for years. He either forgot a million posts or didn't understand them. The later possibility is why I said he sounded like a chiro... near total ignorance.

That claim about 50* being an automatic surgery trigger in an adult is shocking given he has been reading posts here for years. He either forgot a million posts or didn't understand them.




Wow! It clearly seems ths thread it bothers you too much! People without a logic mind only are only able to attack as you always do in discussions.. but clearly it seems you want the moderator close/delete it as you always did in non surgical threads. It seems you also don't want people talking about Vbt..

Certainly the claim was > 50º, but it seems you forgot it or didn't understand the difference. Is tipical of people without a logic mind to believe they can understand why other people say what they say.. you have not the less idea about with how many surgeons I talked and not only of my country.. as I said in some posts I I know that in special cases as very old and without progression, they use to don't recommends fusion, but in common cases is what they does. Quote me please those posts saying the contrary

burdle
02-01-2017, 10:23 AM
Wow! It clearly seems ths thread it bothers you too much! People without a logic mind only are only able to attack as you always do in discussions.. but clearly it seems you want the moderator close/delete it as you always did in non surgical threads. It seems you also don't want people talking about Vbt..

Certainly the claim was > 50º, but it seems you forgot it or didn't understand the difference. Is tipical of people without a logic mind to believe they can understand why other people say what they say.. you have not the less idea about with how many surgeons I talked and not only of my country.. as I said in some posts I I know that in special cases as very old and without progression, they use to don't recommends fusion, but in common cases is what they does. Quote me please those posts saying the contrary

No one is disagreeing that surgeons recommend fusion IF surgery is needed/required. You seem to be saying that they should offer VBT as an option - why should they? If they do not think it is an option for their patient - why should they? As a patient I don't want to be told what wont help me- I want to be told what will. However IF I ask about VBT then I expect to be given reasons why it would not work in my case ( as I havn't been offered it)

flerc
02-01-2017, 02:16 PM
Without any doubt surgeons must to recommends fusion when it is needed. The problem is that probably as they uses to do, they understand something different for 'when it is needed'. For me means that is the only one reasonable option, for them is sufficient to have a curve >50º (except special cases).. yes, I know there are few exceptions around the world as is happening with Michelle.
Certainly I'm not able to imagine why an honest surgeon don't say to their clientes (those that might be accepted for having Vbt), that something like Vbt exists.

flerc
02-01-2017, 02:22 PM
That is, if they are sure (may them?) that someone are not a candidat for Vbt, is logic they don' t tell them about Vbt (if they don't have scoliotic sons) but in any other case, why they hides that important information?

flerc
02-01-2017, 03:44 PM
I discard the possibility of a group of surgeons performing a kind of surgery that the rest of surgeons considers to be inapropiate. Why all the surgeons I know recommends only fusion to everyone with a curve > 50º regardless how young amd flexible may be and don't say nothing about Vbt?

burdle
02-02-2017, 05:38 AM
I discard the possibility of a group of surgeons performing a kind of surgery that the rest of surgeons considers to be inapropiate. Why all the surgeons I know recommends only fusion to everyone with a curve > 50º regardless how young amd flexible may be and don't say nothing about Vbt?


So you can confidently say that 'all these surgeons that you know' NEVER mention VBT. How can you possibly know that?. Do you sit in on the patient appointment- Do you have a direct line to all these surgeons? Surely it is reasonable to conclude that they don't mention it because it is not suitable for the patient. Michelle is not an 'exception' She like myself if the 'norm' in that surgey is avoide unless absolutely necessary.

I grant you that information about VBT may be slow in dissemination but that is likely to be because it is still 'experimental' We don't hava data for how many who have had VBT still go on to need fusion etc.

flerc
02-02-2017, 06:36 AM
I can imagine only one possibility: Surgeons wants to discourage people to prove with non surgical treatments so they go direct to fusion and an effective way is to contract thousands of trolls to invent their story in scoliosis sites (forums, groups, blogs..) saying that surgeons gave them fusion as the only one option. You may read about any kind of age and curve, a lot seems to be candidat for Vbt. When I asked about Vbt in those sites, nobody has idea about what I was saying, only 2 or 3 who have read about it. Of course I don't believe it, is the only possibility I can imagine to not be sure that is not true that they are not saying nothing about Vbt.

flerc
02-02-2017, 07:32 AM
It has not any sense to say it is experimental! Something experimental should to be restricted and everyone (accomplishing the requirements) who wants to have a Vbt surgery may have it since many years ago!. It's only new for adults.

Pooka1
02-02-2017, 07:39 AM
There can't be much more than a few hundred cases of VBT in kids and recently skeletally mature young adults based on what I have read. If anyone knows different please advise.

That comes under the heading of experimental.

For mature adults there is one known case and one that was scheduled. I don't know if the second case happened.

That is REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY experimental.

flerc
02-02-2017, 07:55 AM
May be not more than hundreds of cases, I don't know really. But sure would be thousands or hundreds of thousands if only fusion surgeons would not be hiding Vbt information to their clients as it seems they are doing! Or do you believed taht they never heard about Vbt?

Pooka1
02-02-2017, 08:19 AM
Only a relative handful of surgeons are trained in it. Then there is a learning curve. VBT is going to be very experimental for a long time WITHOUT invoking imaginary conspiracy theories among honest surgeons.

VBS didn't really pan out for large curves per Betz. The staples can't hold. Tethering might not pan out either. Lonner stated some known unknowns that are very open questions, some having to do with disc integrity with tethering. Both treatments are still experimental.

Wanting a non-fusion treatment is fine. Imagining we have one if we don't is misleading and helps nobody.

flerc
02-02-2017, 08:26 AM
I'm only talking about FACTS and doing logical conclusions to explain what is happening. If you have a rational, not dogmatic way to explain what is happening, I hear you, but please try to justuify what you say, it has nothing to do what you may think or not. Why do you say Vbt cannot hold larges curves?????

Pooka1
02-02-2017, 08:31 AM
I'm only talking about FACTS and doing logical conclusions to explain what is happening. If you have a rational, not dogmatic way to explain what is happening, I hear you, but please try to justuify what you say, it has nothing to do what you may think or not. Why do you say Vbt cannot hold larges curves?????

Betz (not me) was talking about VBS (not VBT).

This is an example of what I mean when I say you are not following along. You don't seem to have any idea of how medical treatments are developed.

flerc
02-02-2017, 08:34 AM
Lonner stated some known unknowns that are very open questions, some having to do with disc integrity with tethering. Both treatments are still experimental.


There are a lot of even KNOWN bad side effects with fusion and is what surgeons are recommending, they don't see it as something experimental. Any way may you post that article? I want to know everything about Vbt.

Pooka1
02-02-2017, 08:44 AM
There are a lot of even KNOWN bad side effects with fusion and is what surgeons are recommending, they don't see it as something experimental. Any way may you post that article? I want to know everything about Vbt.

Fusion is about cutting losses. You are still comparing to normal. The only comparison that matters is unfused curve versus fused curve. It is demonstrably true that many people are better off fused than not fused EVEN WITH later problems. You are not able to grok this for some reason. I don't know how else to state it.

None of this is going to make any sense to you until you get your facts straight. Plenty of your statements don't make sense. And if they don't make sense they are probably not true. You appear very confused about a lot of issues.

flerc
02-02-2017, 08:45 AM
Betz (not me) was talking about VBS (not VBT).

This is an example of what I mean when I say you are not following along. You don't seem to have any idea of how medical treatments are developed.

I'm not understanding what you are saying. I don't know enough about Vbs because it cannot be used in my daughter. What is what I don't understand about medical treatments developments?

Pooka1
02-02-2017, 08:58 AM
So is your daughter signing up to be tethered?

flerc
02-02-2017, 08:58 AM
Fusion is about cutting losses. You are still comparing to normal. The only comparison that matters is unfused curve versus fused curve. It is demonstrably true that many people are better off fused than not fused EVEN WITH later problems. You are not able to grok this for some reason. I don't know how else to state it.

None of this is going to make any sense to you until you get your facts straight. Plenty of our statements don't make sense. And if they don't make sense they are probably not true. You appear very confused about a lot of issues.

What have to do it? Is known that a lot of people are not good after fusion and cannot reverse it, otherwise they would do it. And what? What have to do what you say with the fact that surgeons should to be talking about Vbt and they are not doing it?

Pooka1
02-02-2017, 09:01 AM
What have to do it? Is known that a lot of people are not good after fusion and cannot reverse it, otherwise they would do it. And what? What have to do what you say with the fact that surgeons should to be talking about Vbt and they are not doing it?

So is your daughter signing up to be tethered?

flerc
02-02-2017, 09:11 AM
So is your daughter signing up to be tethered?

I have send them her x rays and said them all what they needed to know and they said me she is candidat. Anyway is a major surgery and a surgery is a surgery.. I would prefer for her Spinecor for adults but she refused it.. both follows similar principles. But if she may need it I need to know about it all I can.

Pooka1
02-02-2017, 09:38 AM
If braces worked there would be no surgery.

flerc
02-02-2017, 09:41 AM
If fusion worked we would not be talking here.. there would not be scoliosis sites. Braces don't works for EVERYONE and what has it to do?

flerc
02-02-2017, 09:49 AM
It's enough clear you are not able to explain why only fusion surgeons are not telling their clients about Vbt. Ed is the only one who said something reasonable.. A ship captain would not talk about planes..

flerc
02-02-2017, 09:52 AM
I really hope it never happens but if one of your daughter would need another surgery now, would you refuse Vbt?

burdle
02-02-2017, 12:05 PM
I have send them her x rays and said them all what they needed to know and they said me she is candidat. Anyway is a major surgery and a surgery is a surgery.. I would prefer for her Spinecor for adults but she refused it.. both follows similar principles. But if she may need it I need to know about it all I can.

If you ask the VBT people why she is a candidate for VBT then you can use this information to deduce why some people may not be candidates and this may be why some surgeons do not mention it?

Maybe your daughter knows more than you - may be she has read the Spinecor Story and realises that it does not work?

Pooka1
02-02-2017, 12:19 PM
I really hope it never happens but if one of your daughter would need another surgery now, would you refuse Vbt?

I have said numerous times that for my daughters lumbars I hope VBT is an option if they ever need that. The one daughter is not expected to need that and hopefully both will never need that.

For their thorax, I am not sure because those fusions look to be okay and the ROM probably isn't noticeably different there between fusion and VBT. More is known about the out years with fusion. There is no surgeon who can say VBT would have been one-stop shopping for surgery like fusion is thought to be for my one daughter. That would matter in the decision.

flerc
02-02-2017, 01:36 PM
If you ask the VBT people why she is a candidate for VBT then you can use this information to deduce why some people may not be candidates and this may be why some surgeons do not mention it?

No, I know that flexibility and some type of curve is a restriction, this has nothing to do with the fact (as it seems to be) that only fusion surgeons NEVER says nothing to any clients about Vbt regardles they may be candidats or not.





Maybe your daughter knows more than you - may be she has read the Spinecor Story and realises that it does not work?



Which do you think is the Spinecor story?. Certainly she never reads anything about scoliosis treatments, she always hates when I talked about them, she is only interested in what her Gpr Physiatrist tell her, but when Spinecor arrived to my country I forced her to see it and she said she does not want to use it more than 3 hours per day.. it should have not surprise me, she never did (periodically) something else than Gpr few hors per month.

flerc
02-02-2017, 01:48 PM
I have said numerous times that for my daughters lumbars I hope VBT is an option if they ever need that. The one daughter is not expected to need that and hopefully both will never need that.

For their thorax, I am not sure because those fusions look to be okay and the ROM probably isn't noticeably different there between fusion and VBT. More is known about the out years with fusion. There is no surgeon who can say VBT would have been one-stop shopping for surgery like fusion is thought to be for my one daughter. That would matter in the decision.


So, today if you would know that she is a candidat for Vbt and you should to take a decision today, you would not refuse Vbt as you would refuse any non surgical treatment. So you agree that all only fusion surgeons should to talk about Vbt with everyone, except those they are sure (may them?) are not candidats.

Pooka1
02-02-2017, 02:54 PM
Unless the surgeon thought VBT was one stop shopping for surgery like he said fusion was, I am not sure VBT can be justified for a T curve at this time for those patients because the ROM for that portion of the spine is not going to vary much between unfused versus fused versus tethered.

For lumbar I would absolutely choose VBT. That is a no-brainer.

flerc
02-02-2017, 04:39 PM
So you agree that at least for lumbar zone cases, all surgeons should to be notifing about Vbt. At least in my country I know they are not doing it, as I said you I personally know a mother whose daughter needs (according to surgeons) surgery in the lumbar zone. Her surgeon is the probably most recognised of my country and she also talked with many others and she never heard about Vbt until I told her about it. I have read about tons of posts of teens having fusion in the lumar zone and fusion surgeons nothing said about Vbt. Why they don't notify about Vbt?

Pooka1
02-02-2017, 08:37 PM
So you agree that at least for lumbar zone cases, all surgeons should to be notifing about Vbt. At least in my country I know they are not doing it, as I said you I personally know a mother whose daughter needs (according to surgeons) surgery in the lumbar zone. Her surgeon is the probably most recognised of my country and she also talked with many others and she never heard about Vbt until I told her about it. I have read about tons of posts of teens having fusion in the lumar zone and fusion surgeons nothing said about Vbt. Why they don't notify about Vbt?

I think lumbar patients should know at this point about tethering. I don't think most thoracic patients need to know at this point.

richardis
02-02-2017, 09:07 PM
I tried to join one of those FB groups and I was asked away to many questions in the pre-approval phase. They seem to be a tight-knit group who refuses new-comers. So, I think that they are keeping their knowledge inside of those ivory towers aka fb groups. They really build a wall around those groups. Not easy to get into. Sad!

Pooka1
02-02-2017, 10:16 PM
I tried to join one of those FB groups and I was asked away to many questions in the pre-approval phase. They seem to be a tight-knit group who refuses new-comers. So, I think that they are keeping their knowledge inside of those ivory towers aka fb groups. They really build a wall around those groups. Not easy to get into. Sad!

Which one? Was it a legitimate one or a chiro one?

titaniumed
02-03-2017, 01:23 AM
I think lumbar patients should know at this point about tethering.

I wonder how low they can tether?

L4-L5 and L5-S1 cannot be done in an XLIF (side) from what I have read. I am guessing the pelvis is in the way?

How would they anchor a tether in the lowest levels?

Ed

flerc
02-03-2017, 06:15 AM
I tried to join one of those FB groups and I was asked away to many questions in the pre-approval phase. They seem to be a tight-knit group who refuses new-comers. So, I think that they are keeping their knowledge inside of those ivory towers aka fb groups. They really build a wall around those groups. Not easy to get into. Sad!

Sure you are confused and entered to other group. They never hides nothing!

flerc
02-03-2017, 06:30 AM
I think lumbar patients should know at this point about tethering. I don't think most thoracic patients need to know at this point.

They need to know but only fusion surgeons are not notifing to noone about Vbt (maybe there are some exception, who knows) and of course they should to notify to everyone regardless how much difference may be or not in the Rom of thoracic zone. Why they are not notifying about Vbt?

richardis
02-03-2017, 07:51 AM
This is the group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/ Sure you are confused and entered to other group.

I know. They blocked me.

Pooka1
02-03-2017, 08:49 AM
I know. They blocked me.

That group is legitimate and probably the best source of first person accounts available. I am not a member but I can tell you that Maria is running that group and she is easily one of the most knowledgeable parents out there when it comes to non-fusion surgical treatments for kids.

What questions were you asked and why were you denied membership?

I don't know how they decide who to admit but if you had inadvertently said anything that even hinted of you being a chiro, that might have caused them to block you.

I hope to never need to join that group but if my kids have problems below their fusion that require further surgery, I will join.

flerc
02-03-2017, 08:54 AM
I know. They blocked me.

Certainly I'm realizing I should have not to talk about that group here to everyone. It's not for curious people, or trying to prove their own theories, without the real interest in having Vbt surgery if what they expects is possible. Please delete the link to that group as I did.
I'm absolutely sure you gave them enough and fair reasons to blocks you.

Pooka1
02-03-2017, 09:00 AM
Certainly I'm realizing I should have not to talk about that group here to everyone. It's not for curious people, or trying to prove their own theories, without the real interest in having Vbt surgery if what they expects is possible.

Your daughter has rejected VBT yet you remain a member. Shouldn't you be blocked?


Please delete the link to that group as I did. I'm absolutely sure you gave them enough and fair reasons to blocks you.

Are you high? I will post that link every time a person asks about VBT or VBS. I will mention the problem Richard had and warn people to state they are not chiros until we know the issue why he was denied.

Pooka1
02-03-2017, 09:05 AM
Richard had a T fusion with hyper-correction that ended well above the lumbar. Though it seems highly unlikely he will ever need more surgery, he is absolutely someone who should have an interest in VBT if he ever needs lumbar fusion.

Flerc you are WRONG to say he doesn't belong on that FB group. Completely wrong.

He has more reason for being there now that you do. Let that sink in.

flerc
02-03-2017, 09:13 AM
I said that sure he gave them enough and fair reasons to blocks him. They are fair and good people and moderators are what they must to be!

burdle
02-03-2017, 11:11 AM
Your daughter has rejected VBT yet you remain a member. Shouldn't you be blocked?



Are you high? I will post that link every time a person asks about VBT or VBS. I will mention the problem Richard had and warn people to state they are not chiros until we know the issue why he was denied.

was the link the Scolismart one? That link is not to a forum but to a static website? Or was it a VBT forum- surely VBT people do not block members?

flerc
02-03-2017, 12:14 PM
When I said him wich is the Vbt group, he said ' I know. They blocked me.' I understand Vbt group blocked him and I'm sure it was what they should have to do. Is a perfect group, nothing to do with this forum, moderators are not allowing nobody special for them to attacks others or say what they wants. Nobody may talk about persons in a debate, just only about ideas. I have never seen nothing similar before!.

Pooka1
02-03-2017, 12:17 PM
When I said him wich is the Vbt group, he said ' I know. They blocked me.' I understand Vbt group blocked him and I'm sure it was what they should have to do. Is a perfect group, nothing to do with this forum, moderators are not allowing nobody special for them to attacks others or say what they wants. Nobody may talk about persons in a debate, just only about ideas. I have never seen nothing similar before!.

There is no rational reason for Maria's group to block Richard. None. There is way more reason for them to block you than him.

flerc
02-03-2017, 01:06 PM
What did you understand?? I answered this 'was the link the Scolismart one? That link is not to a forum but to a static website? Or was it a VBT forum- surely VBT people do not block members?' I said that I understand because what he said that the site in which was blocked was the Vbt group, He said was blocked in an unfair way and I'm sure it's not possible. Do you understand now or I'm missing something?

flerc
02-03-2017, 01:08 PM
I know. They blocked me.

What did you want to say with this? Where did you have been blocked really???

flerc
02-03-2017, 01:12 PM
There is way more reason for them to block you than him.

I understand why you don't enter to that group. You know you would not be able to do what you ever do here.

3sisters
02-03-2017, 02:13 PM
The VBT forum being discussed screens in order to offer as much privacy to it's members as possible. ANY forum has the right to block members; if not, it would be an open vs closed forum.

I am personally responsible for screening and I can tell you I regularly get a lot of clickbaiters, spammers, and trolls asking to join. We send out a standard, non invasive screening message to ensure people know what the forum is and get a feel for their 'real people' factor vs clickbaiters or med trolls. In our forum description we state that it is for parents of children considering VBT for their child as well as adult's considering it for themselves. Not for distant cousins, neighbors, chiros, spammers, or children. It is for families (or adults) considering VBT.

Members who do not receive VBT may stay and share their fusioni or MAGEC experiences in the forum where they have made supportive friends. Some members will continue to brace and never have surgery. We never allow just curiousity seekers.

I will not divulge the PM conversation that I had but suffice it to say, I was mislead and then threatened by someone angry at being rejected. If it was the person in this forum, he never told me that he was considering VBT for his unfused lumbar. That person would be welcome. Was it the person on this forum? Possibly, but I spoke with an alias who threatened me and lied about his status.

flerc
02-03-2017, 02:23 PM
Emily, you confirmed what I said. It is a perfect group, only people that should to be there is there.

Pooka1
02-03-2017, 02:24 PM
In our forum description we state that it is for parents of children considering VBT for their child as well as adult's considering it for themselves. Not for distant cousins, neighbors, chiros, spammers, or children. It is for families (or adults) considering VBT.

You let in others apparently. Flerc does NOT fall under any of these categories.

flerc
02-03-2017, 03:02 PM
When you will stops to lie?

richardis
02-03-2017, 04:19 PM
Wow. This thread is going crazy.

I haven't even read all the comments over here.

This is my assessment:
- knowledge is power so it may be a justifying reason to restrict access to it.
- you don't fool me, keeping knowledge private is a form of selfishness
- there is a lot of bad-science over there, so we can't call it science. Publish or perish as they say, so much publishing is just garbage.
- science is a collaborative effort
- some people are "building a wall" to restrict the best healthcare to the privileged and rich ones

But, you're going nowhere because knowledge is pure logical-based so everybody would come to the same conclusions if they prove what they say with reproducible studies. I can test the reliability of a study doing the experiment again.
You are just as smart as your body-health lets you to be. Tell that to MENSA members, I am sure they are well aware of it! Why should anyone need a membership requirement to get access to knowledge? yes, a card membership is a passport to hang around with the smartest people on earth. Sure they can have that card, but they should get that inside info out. MENSA was not created to be a status-symbol, it was created to help to solve the most difficult to handle humanity's problems.

Government and CIA should hack scientists who are on the business just to make a living out of it. What I said is to the best interest of yours. The work of every human being should be copyrighted and you should get paid for it, but to keep science-backed facts private is a crime against humanity. Every human experience is a valuable insight for science, so stop fooling yourselves. Education is a right!

I don't understand why they keep their surgery outcomes private. If they don't open up how can we know if surgery is worthy?
You can choose to be fooled, but I should tell: you won't fool me.

Do you any ideia of how many doctors hide their medical-errors? If you were to be a doctor would you do it to your patients? Do you as patients like it when your doctors hide their mistakes? Open up your eyes. Smart up!

richardis
02-03-2017, 04:34 PM
The VBT forum being discussed screens in order to offer as much privacy to it's members as possible. ANY forum has the right to block members; if not, it would be an open vs closed forum.

I am personally responsible for screening and I can tell you I regularly get a lot of clickbaiters, spammers, and trolls asking to join. We send out a standard, non invasive screening message to ensure people know what the forum is and get a feel for their 'real people' factor vs clickbaiters or med trolls. In our forum description we state that it is for parents of children considering VBT for their child as well as adult's considering it for themselves. Not for distant cousins, neighbors, chiros, spammers, or children. It is for families (or adults) considering VBT.

Members who do not receive VBT may stay and share their fusioni or MAGEC experiences in the forum where they have made supportive friends. Some members will continue to brace and never have surgery. We never allow just curiousity seekers.

I will not divulge the PM conversation that I had but suffice it to say, I was mislead and then threatened by someone angry at being rejected. If it was the person in this forum, he never told me that he was considering VBT for his unfused lumbar. That person would be welcome. Was it the person on this forum? Possibly, but I spoke with an alias who threatened me and lied about his status.

I am afraid it was me. Do you think I am a clickbaiter, a spammer or a troll? If you are afraid of that you can block me so I cannot understand your admission policy. It seems that your forum has acceptance rates that are narrower than ivy-league's schools. I only said I did not want to disclose my real facebook profile. And I explained you the reasons.

flerc
02-03-2017, 04:43 PM
Emily is sure busy, I wish to reply this but I'll wait.. she dos not need nobody defending her (as others here) so by now I'll wait.. anyway is enough clear I was right when I said that they had fair reasons to block him..

flerc
02-03-2017, 08:23 PM
Wow. This thread is going crazy.

I haven't even read all the comments over here.

This is my assessment:
- knowledge is power so it may be a justifying reason to restrict access to it.
- you don't fool me, keeping knowledge private is a form of selfishness
- there is a lot of bad-science over there, so we can't call it science. Publish or perish as they say, so much publishing is just garbage.
- science is a collaborative effort


.
.




I will not notify Emily about this, she has a very much honest group where to be and fortunately for her, she has not any need to be here.
Richards, the requirements to be a member are clear reasonable and fair. If you are not interested in Vbt for you or your sons you are rejected. There is nothing wrong in those requirements really so you cannot be angry if you don't comply them. If you don't say that you have interest in having Vbt in your lumbar zone, something a priori possible, and also don't have scoliotic sons, of course you are rejected.
Emily is a good person and Vbt is a good group. You are shooting against the wrong person and the wrong scoliosis site.

burdle
02-04-2017, 10:27 AM
I am afraid it was me. Do you think I am a clickbaiter, a spammer or a troll? If you are afraid of that you can block me so I cannot understand your admission policy. It seems that your forum has acceptance rates that are narrower than ivy-league's schools. I only said I did not want to disclose my real facebook profile. And I explained you the reasons.

I am afraid that it would be the same for me. IF I applied to a group like VBT it would be under an alias as Facebook finds a way to start linking up people and the majority of my Facebook Friends do not know about my scoliosis and neither would I want them too.

I can understand a group being closed to avoid spammers but surely any one who has an interest should be accepted?. If their behaviour from that point is unacceptable then they can be blocked. But challenging in a polite was should always be acceptable. We live in a scary imperfect world- I would have thought the group would need all the exposure it can get. And it is difficult to express clearly sometimes one's intentions using social media Flerc is an example of this = he says some strange things in some unfortunate English but unless someone constantly is abusive, I cannot see the point of banning them. It smacks a bit of being 'power mad' - losing site of the real mission of a such a site which is to help people with valuable advice! I think you should accept Richards ...

Pooka1
02-04-2017, 10:45 AM
I think you should accept Richards ...

Based on their stated membership criteria, Richard has much more standing to be in the group than does Flerc. Richard is a patient with an unfused lumbar. Besides kids, that is the one adult case that should be a no-brainer for relevance. Flerc does not have scoliosis and his adult daughter has rejected surgery. Why was he allowed in? It seems they are being inconsistent.

flerc
02-04-2017, 11:31 AM
If you believe to be all of you famous people so famous that everyone must to know everything about your lifes, at least you should to give your right name. If you don't say why you accomplishs the requirements nobody may imagine it. If Richards would have said that he is thinking in having Vbt in his unfused zone, sure he would be now a member

flerc
02-04-2017, 11:54 AM
Based on their stated membership criteria, Richard has much more standing to be in the group than does Flerc. Richard is a patient with an unfused lumbar. Besides kids, that is the one adult case that should be a no-brainer for relevance. Flerc does not have scoliosis and his adult daughter has rejected surgery. Why was he allowed in? It seems they are being inconsistent.

Continue lying, defaming, confusing, promoting fusion and all what is clear for anyone you came to do here, anyway.. you know this forum protects you (here).. of course it has not any sense to requires you again (as I allways do and you never accept) to delete all those lies and is not necessary .. people are not stupid as you seems to believe.

Pooka1
02-04-2017, 11:57 AM
Continue lying, defaming, confusing, promoting fusion and all what you came to do here, anyway.. you know this forum protects you (here).. of course it has not any sense to requires you to delete all those lies and is not necessary .. people are not stupid as you seems to believe.

I did not lie. If I am mistaken, point it out and I will apologize and delete the incorrect statement. List the false statements about either Richard or you that you think I made please.

flerc
02-04-2017, 12:06 PM
Richard has much more standing to be in the group than does Flerc.his adult daughter has rejected surgery. It seems they are being inconsistent.
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flerc
02-04-2017, 12:08 PM
Flerc does NOT fall under any of these categories.

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flerc
02-04-2017, 12:40 PM
Flerc is an example of this = he says some strange things in some unfortunate English but unless someone constantly is abusive, I cannot see the point of banning them. It smacks a bit of being 'power mad' - losing site of the real mission of a such a site which is to help people with valuable advice! I think you should accept Richards ...

Wich are the strange things I said in my unfortunate English? I know is far to be a good English but you seems to be the only one having problems to understand it since you always say the same, but may be right, so quote them please and I'll rewrite them again in a more easy way so you may understand it.. certainly what really would be a fair reason to ban someone is to say to be a scientist researcher or a member of MENSA as you did, wihout proving it!

Pooka1
02-04-2017, 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by burdlePooka1

I didn't write this. You inserted my name in the quoting function. DISHONEST. You need to go away.

flerc
02-04-2017, 01:07 PM
Certainly would be too much easy for you if I would not be here of course. You have not authorithy to say dishonest to nobody. But certainly try to not confuse me, is difficult to know which of boths I should to refer, as I say you (both, ok?) you sounds extremely similar you always agree in everything I read, one saying to be a MENSA member the other a scientist research, both without proving it..certainly Burdle posts are the only one I may see supporting all your lies or missunderstandings, certainly all what I say to one of boths I may say to the other.. but ok, I have deleted it. When you'll delete your lies (or misunderstandings ) about me, my daughter and the Vbt group?.

flerc
02-04-2017, 01:19 PM
And what do you are thinking to do with your EXTREMELY SERIOUS LIES about parents of this forum refusing surgery? Or do you believe I forgot it? You never said it was a missunderstunding as you are saying now it was what you said about me. Deleting it without saying nothing would be useless, I have a legal copy, you cannot pretend you have never said what you said.

3sisters
02-04-2017, 07:01 PM
Many groups geared (primarily) towards children screen closely. For example, you must have a young child with EOS to join the EOS and Mehta forum; I cannot join that one. I will not divulge the conversation I might have had with the NSF member because to me, private convos should remain so. HOWever, if he had told me his reason for joining he would have been added. I have not had a potential member ever state that they were considering VBT for their unfused lumbar, but if they had, they would have been more than welcome. If the person on this forum tried to join, he did not say that to me.

It is also a private group so other fb friends do not see anything. We screen to protect children from questionable sounding fb profile names or pages, and answers to the simple screening note should indicate someone meets the forum membership parameters. Our members appreciate that we screen.

I do not come to NSF often, but wanted to see what the talk was about. It is no surprise the VBT forum has over 1,800 members; from all walks of life and dozens of countries. Those people answered a simple screen earnestly, with little problem, and are far from elitist. They are happy to support others in their journey, whether it ultimately results in: VBT, fusion, MAGEC, 'no action' at this time, or continued bracing.


Emily

Pooka1
02-04-2017, 07:36 PM
It is also a private group so other fb friends do not see anything.

You might consider hiding your member lists. They are public.

burdle
02-05-2017, 11:04 AM
Wich are the strange things I said in my unfortunate English? I know is far to be a good English but you seems to be the only one having problems to understand it since you always say the same, but may be right, so quote them please and I'll rewrite them again in a more easy way so you may understand it.. certainly what really would be a fair reason to ban someone is to say to be a scientist researcher or a member of MENSA as you did, wihout proving it!

Why would it be a fair reason to ban them? I can't see the point of banning anyone? You claimed that I was illogical and I defended myself by saying I belonged to MENSA= why do I have to prove it- I care little for your opinion but I will defend my logic.

Why should that ban someone from a group. I say again the only reason to ban people is if they deflect from the mission of the group by being abusive or preventing others from making their posts. Challenge and debate should always be accepted and encouraged.

flerc
02-05-2017, 12:22 PM
Why would it be a fair reason to ban them? I can't see the point of banning anyone? You claimed that I was illogical and I defended myself by saying I belonged to MENSA= why do I have to prove it- I care little for your opinion but I will defend my logic.

Why should that ban someone from a group. I say again the only reason to ban people is if they deflect from the mission of the group by being abusive or preventing others from making their posts. Challenge and debate should always be accepted and encouraged.

Do you think that a way to prove you were not illogical is just only to saying you belongs to MENSA? Not only MENSA members may realize how much ridiculous is this.. or do you believe that everyone must to assume is right what everyone says in a forum? In that case you should have only said 'I'm a clever woman, all what I say is logic' instead to disacredit MENSA members.

And it seems that also we must to believe that a MENSA member is not able to imagine why is immoral to say to belong to that group without proving it in a forum like this. I must to be careful after what Pooka1 said and although I proved how dishonest is she, I must to assume both are different persons so, asks her for my explanation when she asked why is immoral to say here to be a scientist researcher without proving it. It also aply to this case.

Pooka1
02-05-2017, 12:23 PM
Do you think that a way to prove you were not illogical is just only to saying you belongs to MENSA? Not only MENSA members may realize how much ridiculous is this.. or do you believe that everyone must to assume is right what everyone says in a forum? In that case you should have only said 'I'm a clever woman, all what I say is logic' instead to disacredit MENSA members.

And it seems that also we must to believe that a MENSA member is not able to imagine why is immoral to say to belong to that group without proving it in a forum like this. I must to be careful after what Pooka1 said and although I proved how dishonest is she, I must to assume both are different persons so, asks her for my explanation when she asked why is immoral to say here to be a scientist researcher without proving it. It also aply to this case.

Pass the joint, flerc.

flerc
02-05-2017, 12:36 PM
You might consider hiding your member lists. They are public.

Are you sure is not a Fb issue? I have never seen a fb group without seeing names of members. But anyway, it seems now that you have nothing serious to say against Emily and the Vbt group. Why you don't try to do something honest in this forum? You may begin giving your apologies to Emily and Vbt group for your lies (or misunderstandings as you said should to be?)

flerc
02-05-2017, 12:39 PM
Pass the joint, flerc.

Did you forget it? And also you cannot imagine now the obvious explanation?

flerc
02-05-2017, 03:33 PM
Certainly is too much serious to say to be a scientist research than a MENSA member without proving it. If I'm not wrong having a moderate high IQ is possible to be a Mensa member, it would not surprise me if you have it. Certainly I think that all politicians trained in hard and dishonest discussions have it.

richardis
02-05-2017, 04:19 PM
VBT or VBS is certainly just a fix, as well.

The solution lies within the genome.

You know why children assume some similarities with their parents bone structure? Because the genes are passed on.
So the bones assume the shape that is encoded in the genome.

The solution lies within some genome-editing technique. A technology like CRISPR may edit the code that determines the bones' shape. All the research is pointing to some gene defect being the cause of scoliosis. So the solution is to correct that defect. Edit the genome, correct the defect and scoliosis is cured. I hope no one will create a closed-facebook group to keep this secret away from the general-public.

The bones will always assume the shape and the instructions encoded in the genome. By using VBT or VBS you are not editing the code, so overtime the bones will assume the same shape and they will get to the original misshaped form, because it is the code of life that determines what you are. Fusionless techniques will only work if they edit the genome, and they are not editing the genome, they are only attaching a cord or staples to avoid progression.

xy - dad
xx- mom
Now create a table (xx in a column, xy in an arrow) and you have a 50% chance of the child being a boy or a girl.
And from here it only gets complicated.

I hope this post will humble some people. You are not going to cure scoliosis alone. SHARE. DO NOT KEEP A SECRET.

Bones will always follow the instructions that are dictated by the genome. They will not follow the instructions of a cord nor a staple.

Pooka1
02-05-2017, 04:41 PM
Richard, I think you have the wrong idea about the VBT group. That group is patients and parents, not scoliosis researchers. They are not going to solve the genetics of scoliosis or any other research question even about VBT.

richardis
02-05-2017, 04:59 PM
anyway, the admission policy is wrong because they block people who want to shed some light and help them and their kids. I will not get bothered anymore with this. There will always be parents who are anti-vaxxers and the like and who oppose views that are different from theirs. Those who only hang out with people with conformist views will always get religious about their beliefs.

In the hope to avoid scammers, they are being scammed by themselves and their well-paid doctors. I think they are not there to talk about private matters.

Thank you for the rejection letter.

flerc
02-05-2017, 09:15 PM
This forum never stops to cross the line!!! Where is the moderator!!! Her only function here is to threat me or close or delete posts or entire threads when I responds the attacks and lies here in order to discredit every kind of competence for fusion?? Is incredible how she allows and certainly promotes in that way this kind of calumnies. Richards, are you sure that you can be hidden behind a monitor for ever defaming a serious and honest group as Vbt is?! I'm absolutely sure that since Emily said you didn't show interest in Vbt for you or your sons, this was as she said the reason why you didn't was accepted and it is a right and fair requirement and certainly I'm happy to not having someone like you there. You only may remains in a forum like this!. Vbt group should to initiate actions, I really hope they wants to do it! Otherwise lies, calumnies and defamation against them will never stop!

Pooka1
02-05-2017, 09:19 PM
This forum never stops to cross the line!!! Where is the moderator!!! Her only function here is to threat me or close or delete posts or entire threads when I responds the attacks and lies here in order to discredit every kind of competence for fusion?? Is incredible how she allows and certainly promotes in that way this kind of calumnies. Richards, are you sure that you can be hidden behind a monitor for ever defaming a serious and honest group as Vbt is?! I'm absolutely sure that since Emily said you didn't show interest in Vbt for you or your sons, this was as she said the reason why you didn't was accepted and it is a right and fair requirement and certainly I'm happy to not having someone like you there. You only may remains in a forum like this!. Vbt group should to initiate actions, I really hope they wants to do it! Otherwise lies, calumnies and defamation against them will never stop!

Wouldn't you be happier on the FB group? Why do you torture yourself here?

flerc
02-05-2017, 09:28 PM
anyway, the admission policy is wrong because they block people who want to shed some light and help them and their kids. .

What kind of light is it? Show it here!

flerc
02-05-2017, 09:36 PM
Wouldn't you be happier on the FB group? Why do you torture yourself here?


Torturing myself? Why you suppose this? Certainly is great to show how dishonest is some people and organizations, I believe what I have read once about that this is not a corrupt world only because bad people but mainly because good people are not doing nothing against them. In this sense I have nothing to do in a honest group like Vbt and I should to be here all the day as you do.. because a very much different reason of course.

flerc
02-05-2017, 09:45 PM
What kind of light is it? Show it here!

Is this? http://www.nature.com/news/crispr-gene-editing-is-just-the-beginning-1.19510
And what kind of success did you achived talking about this here? Or is the first time that you did it?

flerc
02-05-2017, 10:00 PM
The bones will always assume the shape and the instructions encoded in the genome. By using VBT or VBS you are not editing the code, so overtime the bones will assume the same shape and they will get to the original misshaped form, because it is the code of life that determines what you are. Fusionless techniques will only work if they edit the genome, and they are not editing the genome, they are only attaching a cord or staples to avoid progression.


So you believe that fusion is a good techinque following this genetic solution.. or you think that anyway works. Is what it seems since you are only criticizing fusionless techniques. Sure also for you every non surgical current treatment should to be forbiden.

flerc
02-05-2017, 11:18 PM
Torturing myself? Why you suppose this? Certainly is great to show how dishonest is some people and organizations, I believe what I have read once about that this is not a corrupt world only because bad people but mainly because good people are not doing nothing against them. In this sense I have nothing to do in a honest group like Vbt and I should to be here all the day as you do.. because a very much different reason of course.

Certainly.. are you not tired to see how I always shut your mouth? Is what ever happens, then you try with something different and again.. are you masochist or what?

flerc
02-05-2017, 11:19 PM
Certainly..


I think lumbar patients should know at this point about tethering. I don't think most thoracic patients need to know at this point.


They need to know but only fusion surgeons are not notifing to noone about Vbt (maybe there are some exception, who knows) and of course they should to notify to everyone regardless how much difference may be or not in the Rom of thoracic zone. Why they are not notifying about Vbt?

I have corroborated what I supposed, that is, only fusion surgeons has not an honest reason to not talk with their patients about Vbt. Of course except the exceptional cases where they are absolutely sure that Vbt cannot be used (now or in a possible future) and they have not and will never has sons. Period.

burdle
02-06-2017, 04:29 AM
Do you think that a way to prove you were not illogical is just only to saying you belongs to MENSA? Not only MENSA members may realize how much ridiculous is this.. or do you believe that everyone must to assume is right what everyone says in a forum? In that case you should have only said 'I'm a clever woman, all what I say is logic' instead to disacredit MENSA members.

And it seems that also we must to believe that a MENSA member is not able to imagine why is immoral to say to belong to that group without proving it in a forum like this. I must to be careful after what Pooka1 said and although I proved how dishonest is she, I must to assume both are different persons so, asks her for my explanation when she asked why is immoral to say here to be a scientist researcher without proving it. It also aply to this case.

You are staring to behave like a troll. I did not say that to prove my logic. I merely pointed it out. However it is not logical for you to say that my not proving it or even saying it somehow discredits ( check your spelling) MENSA.

burdle
02-06-2017, 04:43 AM
Certainly..





I have corroborated what I supposed, that is, only fusion surgeons has not an honest reason to not talk with their patients about Vbt. Of course except the exceptional cases where they are absolutely sure that Vbt cannot be used (now or in a possible future) and they have not and will never has sons. Period.

You have not corroborated anything- you just keep saying it. You don't know surgeons don't talk about VBT- you have just concluded that they don't because you have spoken to patients who have not heard of VBT after they have visited a surgeon? Unless you conduct a poll and ask surgeons in context you simply are ILLOGICAl to draw those conclusions.

Moreover you are doing harm, harm to people who come on this forum for information and support. Doctors and surgeons are on our side. When a new procedure becomes absolutely viable then it becomes an obvious topic of conversation between a patient and the doctor. Stop trying to make out that because you have read some chiro article or whatever that this is not the case.

I am surprised that VBT isn't discussed more on this forum but I don't believe it is not because of anyone's decision. It is not just numbers of VBT procedures are low - it may be because they go to a perfectly valid Facebook group. That's their choice. I personally find that Facebook does not really allow a stream of debate- too many people jump in and distort a discussion. But that is their choice. I prefer this sort of forum - yes even with you doing what you do- because it is much clearer to read and follow.

I may be wrong but I think in UK doctors are not doing VBT while they wait outcomes of existing surgeries- i.e. see if the VBT works. I would welcome being corrected on this though. Not by Flerc- because she simply would not know how to find out. Flerc would accept what any site says without researching its provenance.

burdle
02-06-2017, 04:47 AM
Do you think that a way to prove you were not illogical is just only to saying you belongs to MENSA? Not only MENSA members may realize how much ridiculous is this.. or do you believe that everyone must to assume is right what everyone says in a forum? In that case you should have only said 'I'm a clever woman, all what I say is logic' instead to disacredit MENSA members.

And it seems that also we must to believe that a MENSA member is not able to imagine why is immoral to say to belong to that group without proving it in a forum like this. I must to be careful after what Pooka1 said and although I proved how dishonest is she, I must to assume both are different persons so, asks her for my explanation when she asked why is immoral to say here to be a scientist researcher without proving it. It also aply to this case.

Judges apply logic when they reach conclusions but they also use the term 'reasonable' Nothing here shows either!

burdle
02-06-2017, 05:23 AM
So you believe that fusion is a good techinque following this genetic solution.. or you think that anyway works. Is what it seems since you are only criticizing fusionless techniques. Sure also for you every non surgical current treatment should to be forbiden.

As I understand it - fusion is suggested because a curve is progressing. In UK it is the primary reason for fusion surgery. PAIN is not a sole reason. The difficulty is determining if a curve will progress or not. Fusion could be a sledge-hammer to crack a nut - if for example a curve had actually stopped. I think Richards is saying that the curve could start again after time. I do not think anyone yet know this. We will only know this after assessing VBT patients after some elapsed time. however it is important to factor in 'quality of life' . A patient may have VBT and go on later to progress- this does not mean it is a failure- good years will have been had in between to make it a viable choice for the patient and further progression may not be an issue for the patient. Scientifically it may be considered a failure though, and scientists will look at this.

Emphasis in research is to find the cause of scoliosis but also to assess its epidemiology better. If we were more sure about progression decisions would be easier to make.

flerc
02-06-2017, 07:05 AM
You are staring to behave like a troll. I did not say that to prove my logic. I merely pointed it out. However it is not logical for you to say that my not proving it or even saying it somehow discredits ( check your spelling) MENSA.

No, I would seems to be a troll as you really seems to be, only if this forum would be honest and the name would be NSF Only Fusion Forum. Then it would not be so inacceptable to allow you to say what you want.
It seems enough clear that you cannot imagine why is immoral to say something leading people here to believe you are very smart or wise,
without proving it. I don't want to imagine how difficult may be for your imagination to understand my English..

flerc
02-06-2017, 07:13 AM
Judges apply logic when they reach conclusions but they also use the term 'reasonable' Nothing here shows either!

Sure if I would say something illogic you may see at something reasonable and logic.. in spite of my English..

flerc
02-06-2017, 07:34 AM
You have not corroborated anything- you just keep saying it.

I corroborated it, I didn't say 'I proved it to others', I really do not expect you may understand the difference .. much less having You to read it in my English ..

burdle
02-06-2017, 07:38 AM
I corroborated it, I didn't say 'I proved it to others', I really do not expect you may understand the difference .. much less having You to read it in my English ..

Where did you corroborate it? Corroborate does mean prove or provide evidence for- you SAID that no surgeons talk about VBT but where did you corroborate this?

burdle
02-06-2017, 07:44 AM
No, I would seems to be a troll as you really seems to be, only if this forum would be honest and the name would be NSF Only Fusion Forum. Then it would not be so inacceptable to allow you to say what you want.
It seems enough clear that you cannot imagine why is immoral to say something leading people here to believe you are very smart or wise,
without proving it. I don't want to imagine how difficult may be for your imagination to understand my English..

Your English is pretty incomprehensible. It is not immoral for me to say I am smart or wise. People can believe what they wish. everything is relative - morality does not come into it. Abusing people by saying they are dishonest or immoral is not acceptable behaviour.

There is more than one forum on the site- the surgical forum debates surgical options. It welcomes posts from Maria and Emily - I have welcomed those posts. I am delighted to hear about VBT- I wish we heard more about it- I have said so. Your posts are pointless - they just have a conspiracy agenda- and as such are valueless!

flerc
02-06-2017, 08:19 AM
Where did you corroborate it? Corroborate does mean prove or provide evidence for- you SAID that no surgeons talk about VBT but where did you corroborate this?

Certainly in that post I said that I coorborated this 'only fusion surgeons has not an honest reason to not talk with their patients about Vbt.' It seems my English confuse you too much!!!
And you cannot say me as you did that I didn't corroborate it. I get enough proofs to myself. Mensa must to know about this thread!

flerc
02-06-2017, 09:13 AM
Sorry, I'm confusing you too much.. and not only with my unfortunate English as you always say I have. It seems to be very subtle the effect on saying to be a Mensa member .. I forgot I must to explain you all what I say.. in that sentence ('only fusion surgeons has not an honest reason to not talk with their patients about Vbt.' ) I was not saying that surgeons are not talking about Vbt, I said thay they have not honest reason to don't do it. Is too mucho difficult for you my English or what I means this time? Tell me please!.

flerc
02-06-2017, 09:14 AM
You should to ask the moderator for closing this thread, it would be the best for you and also for MENSA and Scientist Researchers Societies.

burdle
02-06-2017, 09:32 AM
Certainly in that post I said that I coorborated this 'only fusion surgeons has not an honest reason to not talk with their patients about Vbt.' It seems my English confuse you too much!!!
And you cannot say me as you did that I didn't corroborate it. I get enough proofs to myself. Mensa must to know about this thread!

You started the thread and you gave it this title

"Why surgeons are not recommending Vbs/Vbt "



Even worse, why they are not telling their patients that something new (if we realize that fusion has more than a century) and without its serious disadvantages is available for them?

Last edited by flerc; 01-28-2017 at 08:41 AM.


So you definitely said that fusion surgeons are not telling their patients about VBT/VBS. You did not say (originally) that fusion surgeons do not have an honest reason not to talk about it with their patients (have translated above). You claimed that they did not talk- I asked where you got your information. You claim to talk to surgeons and I countered by saying that this was not representative os all fusion surgeons (you need a poll). My posts are simple! I think they may well have an honest reason not to talk about it - if it is not a solution for their patient. You abuse surgeons by claiming otherwise!

flerc
02-06-2017, 09:52 AM
'You started the thread and you gave it this title

"Why surgeons are not recommending Vbs/Vbt "



Even worse, why they are not telling their patients that something new (if we realize that fusion has more than a century) and without its serious disadvantages is available for them? '

.
.
.

So why then you quoted another post??? Do you understand why I talk about your fault of logics?

flerc
02-06-2017, 10:04 AM
In fact is not only a waste of time for logic people to talk with you, Is Impossible!!

burdle
02-06-2017, 10:15 AM
'You started the thread and you gave it this title

"Why surgeons are not recommending Vbs/Vbt "



Even worse, why they are not telling their patients that something new (if we realize that fusion has more than a century) and without its serious disadvantages is available for them? '

.
.
.

So why then you quoted another post??? Do you understand why I talk about your fault of logics?




I quoted your FIRST post and then the later one as you claimed not have said the first statement- and you claimed to have corroborated it the second statement. . Corroboration is not saying the same thing over and over - corroboration is providing objective proof. Where is your proof?

flerc
02-06-2017, 10:52 AM
You have not corroborated anything- you just keep saying it. You don't know surgeons don't talk about VBT- you have just concluded that they don't because you have spoken to patients who have not heard of VBT after they have visited a surgeon? Unless you conduct a poll and ask surgeons in context you simply are ILLOGICAl to draw those conclusions.

Moreover you are doing harm, harm to people who come on this forum for information and support. Doctors and surgeons are on our side. When a new procedure becomes absolutely viable then it becomes an obvious topic of conversation between a patient and the doctor. Stop trying to make out that because you have read some chiro article or whatever that this is not the case.

I am surprised that VBT isn't discussed more on this forum but I don't believe it is not because of anyone's decision. It is not just numbers of VBT procedures are low - it may be because they go to a perfectly valid Facebook group. That's their choice. I personally find that Facebook does not really allow a stream of debate- too many people jump in and distort a discussion. But that is their choice. I prefer this sort of forum - yes even with you doing what you do- because it is much clearer to read and follow.

I may be wrong but I think in UK doctors are not doing VBT while they wait outcomes of existing surgeries- i.e. see if the VBT works. I would welcome being corrected on this though. Not by Flerc- because she simply would not know how to find out. Flerc would accept what any site says without researching its provenance.

MY GODDD!!!!!! try to be sure about what you says, you only quoted the post I said!!!!!

flerc
02-06-2017, 11:00 AM
Are you sure you wants to continue with this? I should really to believe then you are masochist!. Remember this please
You should to ask the moderator for closing this thread, it would be the best for you and also for MENSA and Scientist Researchers Societies.

I feel like boxing with a little angry kid. Ask to your corner for throwing you the towell please!!!

burdle
02-06-2017, 12:08 PM
MY GODDD!!!!!! try to be sure about what you says, you only quoted the post I said!!!!!

Flerc - just to explain.

When someone quotes a previous post, it is because they are referring to that post specifically!!!

So I referred to your post and then I make my further comment. Don't you understand?

So I referred to your post where you said you have corroborated and asked WHERE was the corroboration? I still ask where is your proof about what fusion surgeons say. It is a simple question.

Similarly I referred to the title of the thread as evidence of what you said- because you denied it later.

Try to keep up with continuity!

flerc
02-06-2017, 04:26 PM
If you want me continuing with this.. ok!. But I'll do it in a way not allowing to merging everything as it would be all the same when is not. So we are going step by step, ok?
I assume you said Yes.
Ok, all this began with what I said



I have corroborated what I supposed, that is, only fusion surgeons has not an honest reason to not talk with their patients about Vbt. Of course except the exceptional cases where they are absolutely sure that Vbt cannot be used (now or in a possible future) and they have not and will never has sons. Period.

and then you saying me

You have not corroborated anything- you just keep saying it. You don't know surgeons don't talk about VBT- you have just concluded that they don't because you have spoken to patients who have not heard of VBT after they have visited a surgeon? Unless you conduct a poll and ask surgeons in context you simply are ILLOGICAl to draw those conclusions.


Is enough clear FOR EVERYONE that the only thing I have said I corroborated in this thread is what I remarked, OK?

So it have not much sense what you said then.. certainly you only make me laugh saying me ILLOGICAl as you did

Do you see now how imprecise and wrong is all what you said up to this point? If you agree I will continue

flerc
02-06-2017, 10:29 PM
If you agree I will continue

And if not, explain why not, and I'll remark your mistakes in your explanation.

richardis
02-07-2017, 10:10 PM
what about disk degeneration? they are applying a lot of force between the vertebrae, in the discs, either the tether or the staples. sooner or later all those disks may be candidates for artificial disk replacements. well, truth be told, in fusion surgery the disks above and below are candidates for surgery as well in the future.

flerc
02-08-2017, 05:51 AM
Are you sure about this? I ever thought that in fusion surgery the disks above were not suffering any kind of degeneration and only those below are candidates for surgery in the future. The very much reasonable explanation I know says that without fusion, the weight of the body is distributed among all vertebras and disks, disks are absorving that force losing high, but after fusion, only the unfused disks bellow must to support all the weight not absorved any more for the fused disks. Of course this not apply to the dsks above, wich continue absorving the same force, and of course it has nothing to do with Vbt.. as I know the disks continue absorving the force.
I also heard that few movility leads to degenerationis and it's not the same after fusion in the rest of the spine so , probably this may also be happening in the above disks, I don't know, but again it would not have nothing to do with Vbt, at least I have never heard about a significand lost of movility.

titaniumed
02-08-2017, 12:05 PM
Re-aligning the spine through tethering would seem to make sense as far as preserving discs, but I believe this is still unknown. I have had disc herniation’s in my lumbar in a 70 degree curve that drove me into surgery, and I also have or had herniation’s in my neck with no scoliosis (before my surgeries, stated in my hospital reports). Its obvious that gravity did not have a profound affect, and that my disc problems were far from being a simple structural problem.

Rotation is also an interesting question, it had no affect on my discs since I am an example of herniated discs with and without scoliosis. It would be interesting to see before and after CT scans of rotation in a tethered patient. I have my CT scans after my scoliosis surgery (done for gall problems) that show the improved rotation correction. When tethering corrects coronal curves, what happens to vertebral rotation? Does it improve?

With all the excitement involving this thread, I must report that there is an adult patient that contacted me through a PM and that person is doing a tethering consult. Since PM is private, I wont disclose anything more. After the consult, I am truly hoping that this person will post information on the visit since we are all very interested.

We need more data and testimonials on adult tethering.....

We put several astronauts on the moon, but it still doesn’t guarantee safety in space travel.

Nothing happens fast.

Ed

burdle
02-08-2017, 12:30 PM
If you want me continuing with this.. ok!. But I'll do it in a way not allowing to merging everything as it would be all the same when is not. So we are going step by step, ok?
I assume you said Yes.
Ok, all this began with what I said



and then you saying me


Is enough clear FOR EVERYONE that the only thing I have said I corroborated in this thread is what I remarked, OK?

So it have not much sense what you said then.. certainly you only make me laugh saying me ILLOGICAl as you did

Do you see now how imprecise and wrong is all what you said up to this point? If you agree I will continue


This is what you began with: It is your first post and title of this thread.

"Why surgeons are not recommending Vbs/Vbt "

Even worse, why they are not telling their patients that something new (if we realize that fusion has more than a century) and without its serious disadvantages is available for them? "

I challenged you to corroborate ie prove what you said. You did not corroborate or prove- to do so you would need to have actually named surgeons.

Then you said

I have corroborated what I supposed, that is, only fusion surgeons has not an honest reason to not talk with their patients about Vbt. Of course except the exceptional cases where they are absolutely sure that Vbt cannot be used (now or in a possible future) and they have not and will never has sons. Period.


Again I asked you to prove that only surgeons have a dishonest reason with their patients to not talk about VBT. For a start all sorts of medical people might not talk with their patients ( so illogical here to say only surgeons ) - to prove this statement you would have to show that surgeons were not talking about vbt etc… and you have not shown this

flerc
02-08-2017, 05:49 PM
This is what you began with: It is your first post and title of this thread.

"Why surgeons are not recommending Vbs/Vbt "

Even worse, why they are not telling their patients that something new (if we realize that fusion has more than a century) and without its serious disadvantages is available for them? "

I challenged you to corroborate ie prove what you said. You did not corroborate or prove- to do so you would need to have actually named surgeons.

Then you said

I have corroborated what I supposed, that is, only fusion surgeons has not an honest reason to not talk with their patients about Vbt. Of course except the exceptional cases where they are absolutely sure that Vbt cannot be used (now or in a possible future) and they have not and will never has sons. Period.


Again I asked you to prove that only surgeons have a dishonest reason with their patients to not talk about VBT. For a start all sorts of medical people might not talk with their patients ( so illogical here to say only surgeons ) - to prove this statement you would have to show that surgeons were not talking about vbt etc… and you have not shown this
In fact I'm not sure if you definitely are not able to understand how much incorrect you was saying this


You have not corroborated anything- you just keep saying it. You don't know surgeons don't talk about VBT

when I was saying that I corroborated (because what I quoted) that surgeons has not honest reasons to don't tell their patients about Vbt. Probably you only are not enough honest to accept it.

But since has not any sense this kind of discussion with you, ok. I will accept your challenge when you prove that Spinecor for adults don't works as you always says!. I must to explain you again that saying 'I corroborated' means that I got a proof for myself, not necessarily for anyone reading only this thread. What I quoted was enough proof for me.. and certainly I wait for your proof about Spinecor and everything you defame or giving your apologies and shuting your mouth about things you have not idea as you ever shows.

flerc
02-08-2017, 06:55 PM
We need more data and testimonials on adult tethering.....

We put several astronauts on the moon, but it still doesn’t guarantee safety in space travel.

Nothing happens fast.

Ed

For what? For tell adults decided to take surgery about Vbt??
Do you think that fusion guarantee safety?. The issue here is fusion vs Vbt.
You can contribute to going faster, getting more data and testimonials on adult tethering, you talk with many people here decided to have fusion, you may tell them about Vbt. They are not stupids, they can take decisions by themselves, they may join the Vbt group and ask about all what you say, but if they don't knows that something as Vbt exists and it is used in adults, nothing they may do. My apologies if you are not doing the same as Pooka1 does, that is, just only answering what people previously knowing about Vbt ask her about it.

flerc
02-08-2017, 07:58 PM
Rotation is also an interesting question, it had no affect on my discs since I am an example of herniated discs with and without scoliosis. It would be interesting to see before and after CT scans of rotation in a tethered patient. I have my CT scans after my scoliosis surgery (done for gall problems) that show the improved rotation correction. When tethering corrects coronal curves, what happens to vertebral rotation? Does it improve?



Vbt is only used in flexible spines. I'm not sure at all but I believe it would be the same concept used in the original Spinecor protocol, not used by CLEAR, that is, the curve must to be reduced being lying down, that is, not forces should to be used to get that reduction, just only to hold it . When the spine natural bends to one side the rotation is provoked in the opposite way. At least I have read once about that law. So rotation should to be reduced with Spinecor and Vbt.

titaniumed
02-08-2017, 11:47 PM
For tell adults decided to take surgery about Vbt??


Flerc, Which translator are you using?

I am having trouble understanding

Ed

burdle
02-09-2017, 05:25 AM
But since has not any sense this kind of discussion with you, ok. I will accept your challenge when you prove that Spinecor for adults don't works as you always says!. I must to explain you again that saying 'I corroborated' means that I got a proof for myself, not necessarily for anyone reading only this thread. What I quoted was enough proof for me.. and certainly I wait for your proof about Spinecor and everything you defame or giving your apologies and shuting your mouth about things you have not idea as you ever shows.

AT LAST - you are saying that corroboration for you means that YOU are satisfied. Well that is not how proof works- proof/corroboration means showing OTHERS in some sort of demonstrateable/evidence-based- way that what you are saying is true. We know what you BELIEVE but you believing it does not make it fact. YOUR belief is subjective and in your case skewed by your irrationality and conspiracy theories! To get to this point we have had to put up with your nonsense and abuse!

And the thread is not about SPINECORE it is about VBT. Spinecore is only provided by chiros. VBT is only provided by Doctors. Chiros are not Doctors. I have not asked you to prove anything about SPINECORE- that can be done by doctors. I asked you to prove your initial statement about surgeons talking about VBT.

burdle
02-09-2017, 05:51 AM
For what? For tell adults decided to take surgery about Vbt??
Do you think that fusion guarantee safety?. The issue here is fusion vs Vbt.
You can contribute to going faster, getting more data and testimonials on adult tethering, you talk with many people here decided to have fusion, you may tell them about Vbt. They are not stupids, they can take decisions by themselves, they may join the Vbt group and ask about all what you say, but if they don't knows that something as Vbt exists and it is used in adults, nothing they may do. My apologies if you are not doing the same as Pooka1 does, that is, just only answering what people previously knowing about Vbt ask her about it.

Are you seriously suggesting that patients should use Facebook groups to make decisions about their medical care. the most a facebook group can do is offer support and personal experience. It cannot and never will replace respositories for data results that Ed is referring to. No two people's spines are the same- it is of no help to know that someone else has had VBT if it is not suitable for the original person. On what basis are you expecting patients to make decisions about whether to have VBT?

flerc
02-09-2017, 05:58 AM
Flerc, Which translator are you using?

I am having trouble understanding

Ed
Ed, I wanted to say if you think that we need more Vbt surgeries in adults in order to consider that it would be to right to telling about it to people decided to have surgery who never heard about it. I'm not seeing old members here doing it. Tell me if you didn't understand something else. I guarantee you that if you use Google translator you would see what I'm saying in a perfect Spanish, I have just checked it.

flerc
02-09-2017, 06:44 AM
AT LAST - you are saying that corroboration for you means that YOU are satisfied. Well that is not how proof works- proof/corroboration means showing OTHERS in some sort of demonstrateable/evidence-based- way that what you are saying is true.

MY GODDD!!!! corroborate/confirm means, exactly the same in Spanish and English, as I explained you, if I say 'I corroborated it' I'm saying I got a proof for myself, not necessarily useful to show it to others. Take a look to a dictionary

verb (used with object), corroborated, corroborating.
1.
to make more certain; confirm

The lawyer corroborated/confirmed after a private chat with her client that he is the murderer. He cannot prove what he heard. How old are you? I'm feeling bad thinking that surely you are a kid. You are not only illogical but also you don't understand what words in your language means. To have a discussion with someone like you is definitely an stupid way to waste the time!. I hope MENSA members may be reading this.

burdle
02-09-2017, 07:25 AM
MY GODDD!!!! corroborate/confirm means, exactly the same in Spanish and English, as I explained you, if I say 'I corroborated it' I'm saying I got a proof for myself, not necessarily useful to show it to others. Take a look to a dictionary

verb (used with object), corroborated, corroborating.
1.
to make more certain; confirm

The lawyer corroborated/confirmed after a private chat with her client that he is the murderer. He cannot prove what he heard. How old are you? I'm feeling bad thinking that surely you are a kid. You are not only illogical but also you don't understand what words in your language means. To have a discussion with someone like you is definitely an stupid way to waste the time!. I hope MENSA members may be reading this.

I am getting tired of this - you are an abusive idiot... getting a proof for yourself is NO PROOF - so you decided based on what you 'heard' that it is fact and you decided it was not 'necessarily useful to show it to others'? If you cannot prove what you heard, it is not proof. ' The lawyer corroborated with her client that he is the murderer would have to be 'corroborated ' by the client actually saying it in front of witnesses i.e. a court. You saying it DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUTH. You have not made anything 'more certain' unless you can prove what you have heard. You don'y understand English and you don't understand evidence, proof etc. You have a silly inefficient mind and are incapable of rational processes .
I suggest you show someone else your last post and get them to point out the rubbish you say.

flerc
02-09-2017, 07:49 AM
I am getting tired of this - you are an abusive idiot... You have a silly inefficient mind ..


Ok, I'm not allowed to insult here but you can insult all what you want (a very fair forum!!) and of course is all what someone like you, who seems to not having a brain (or have not idea how to use it) may do discussing with someone not stupid.

flerc
02-09-2017, 07:55 AM
But if yoi like this..


getting a proof for yourself is NO PROOF -
BE HONEST (at least once) and quote where I said the contrary, or give me your apologies!
How many times do you need me remarking your lack of logic, your nonsense posts, your serious understanding problems..? As I asked you before, are you masochist or what? Have you not any kind of dignity? If someone could do the same with me, I would shut my mouth since the first time.. probably after some others more, but you seems to be absolutely inmune. Look for help.

flerc
02-09-2017, 08:21 AM
you are an abusive idiot... You have a silly inefficient mind ..

People close to my PC when I read your posts may corroborate I laugh even more when you insut me.. even if they don't film it.

flerc
02-09-2017, 09:10 AM
Are you seriously suggesting that patients should use Facebook groups to make decisions about their medical care

Comments are unnecessary for people having a logic understanding, but anyway..
Of course I was saying that: having only few surgeries in adults up to now and some doubts (they are also around fusion after a century!) that may sounds logic (specially for those don't knowing enough about Vbt), does not justify to not telling about Vbt to people don't knowing it yet. Of course people will not decide to have Vbt surgery just only because an old member was talking about it (so why they are not doing it?). They may begin to do their own research joinig the Vbt group (as I did) or in the way they wants.

titaniumed
02-09-2017, 09:58 PM
Ed, I wanted to say if you think that we need more Vbt surgeries in adults in order to consider that it would be to right to telling about it to people decided to have surgery who never heard about it.

This is Google translator. Thanks Google. Its been 15 years now with your translator. Can we get it right at some point?

Flerc, I understand but I had to re-read it multiple times because the grammar is horrible. This happens all the time and it confusing. Its not your Spanish, it’s the translator.

Google can NOT handle more than 10 words in a sentence.

http://blogs.transparent.com/language-news/2015/09/02/how-google-translate-works-and-why-it-doesnt-measure-up/

When products or procedures are new, there will be hesitancy.

It doesn’t matter if it’s a car, a translation program, the next version of windows, or a new method of surgery.

Google “inaccuracies in translation programs” Read the articles in Spanish, do not translate an English written article.

Ed

burdle
02-14-2017, 09:01 AM
But if yoi like this..


BE HONEST (at least once) and quote where I said the contrary, or give me your apologies!
How many times do you need me remarking your lack of logic, your nonsense posts, your serious understanding problems..? As I asked you before, are you masochist or what? Have you not any kind of dignity? If someone could do the same with me, I would shut my mouth since the first time.. probably after some others more, but you seems to be absolutely inmune. Look for help.

on 02/09/17 you said 'I must to explain you again that saying 'I corroborated' means that I got a proof for myself'

You said that 'corroborated meant that you proved to yourself'.