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flerc
07-18-2016, 11:39 PM
Pwalia , I opened this thread with the same name of your good thread http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?15569-SpineCor-and-Insurance which unfortunately was aborted by Pooka1 and closed as it always happens here. This should to encourage you to try with the Spinecor for adults, not only because they were not able to show a solid argument against it.. it seems they don't want people talking about it.

Anyway I'm shocked with this 'It is okay to try treatments that are unproven.' For Pooka1, unproven treatments are everything except fusion, but she is not saying now that people trying with non surgical methods are ignorant, stupids or desperates. Amazing!

flerc
07-18-2016, 11:58 PM
This is what the inventor of Vbt said https://posna.org/Blogs/The-Resident-Review/March-2015/Emerging-Technology-An-Interview-with-Randal-Betz
'If you talk to orthodontists who are moving teeth, even in adults, they are seeing significant bone remodeling. It has encouraged us to consider that there may be some late remodeling opportunities, not just for growth modulation, but for bone remodeling.'

Vbt is used now for adults. If it can lead to bone remodeling, why (with significant reduction in brace) Spinecor cannot get it too?

burdle
07-19-2016, 06:12 AM
This is what the inventor of Vbt said https://posna.org/Blogs/The-Resident-Review/March-2015/Emerging-Technology-An-Interview-with-Randal-Betz
'If you talk to orthodontists who are moving teeth, even in adults, they are seeing significant bone remodeling. It has encouraged us to consider that there may be some late remodeling opportunities, not just for growth modulation, but for bone remodeling.'

Vbt is used now for adults. If it can lead to bone remodeling, why (with significant reduction in brace) Spinecor cannot get it too?

Taken from your own link above - question and answer to DR Betz - ' late adolescence is not 'adult'

Q: Can the procedure be done in skeletally mature people?


A: If you talk to orthodontists who are moving teeth, even in adults, they are seeing significant bone remodeling. It has encouraged us to consider that there may be some late remodeling opportunities, not just for growth modulation, but for bone remodeling. So even though in the past we were doing patients who were Risser 0, Sanders 4 or less, we now are considering patients who are a little bit older, Sanders 7 and up to Risser 4, because we just don’t know how much remodeling there is in late adolescence.

Pooka1
07-19-2016, 06:36 AM
Now that we see the whole quote, we see that flerc was "quote-mining." That is showing only part of a quote to make a point OPPOSITE to what the author was making.

Flerc is being intellectually dishonest. Only people who cannot win an argument honestly engage in quote mining. The textbook case are the people who deny an old earth and evolution. They are stars at quote-mining because if they didn't do that they couldn't say anything at all.

flerc
07-19-2016, 08:43 AM
Now you want to close also this thread. You don't want people taking into account non surgical methods! There is too much evidence!.

flerc
07-19-2016, 10:14 AM
VBT/VBS is not suitable for adults and only suitable for some children's curves.

Taken from your own link above - question and answer to DR Betz - ' late adolescence is not 'adult'

Q: Can the procedure be done in skeletally mature people?


A: If you talk to orthodontists who are moving teeth, even in adults, they are seeing significant bone remodeling. It has encouraged us to consider that there may be some late remodeling opportunities, not just for growth modulation, but for bone remodeling. So even though in the past we were doing patients who were Risser 0, Sanders 4 or less, we now are considering patients who are a little bit older, Sanders 7 and up to Risser 4, because we just don’t know how much remodeling there is in late adolescence.

Coincidentally, as Pooka1 does, you also affirm in a categorical way what you cannot prove.
Yes, Vbt is used in adults too.

burdle
07-19-2016, 10:38 AM
Coincidentally, as Pooka1 does, you also affirm in a categorical way what you cannot prove.
Yes, Vbt is used in adults too.



You prove it - - you show me adults who have had successful VBT? I don't have to prove VBT isn't done on adults - you have to prove it is!!

Maybe your poor English means you don't understand the term 'adult' but for the purposes of this discussion I am using it to describe fully grown mature people.

I would love to hear that VBT is offered to adults as a matter of routine. DR. Betz did not say he does VBT on adults. You are not helping when you post inaccuracies and give false hope.

You are blind to facts, selective in your facts and hide behind your vendetta against people on this forum.

flerc
07-19-2016, 11:53 AM
And if you are so sure about what you say, why you ask if the procedure is done in adults? Maybe the problem is that you have not clear what you want to say or how to do it (fortunately you are talking in your native language) .. or what you think.. who knows?
'DR. Betz did not say he does VBT on adults'.. never? At least you are consistent now with what you said before 'VBT/VBS is not suitable for adults and only suitable for some children's curves'. Which is your information source? It's amazing really.. Use the searcher please, .. Don't you understand what I'm saying or do you need I explain you how to use it?.. it's very easy, tell me.
Anyway, good work! We are not talking about Spinecor anymore!

burdle
07-19-2016, 12:06 PM
And if you are so sure about what you say, why you ask if the procedure is done in adults? Maybe the problem is that you have not clear what you want to say.. or what you think.. who knows?
'DR. Betz did not say he does VBT on adults.' At least you are consistent now with what you said before 'VBT/VBS is not suitable for adults and only suitable for some children's curves'. Which is your information source? It's amazing really.. Use the searcher please, .. Don't you understand what I'm saying or do you need I explain you how to use it?.. it's very easy, tell me.
Anyway, good work! We are not talking about Spinecor..

Flerc - you are crazy, insulting and downright stupid. - The thread evolved from Spinecor where I countered with Pooka that there was no evidence that it worked to a general discussion on non-surgical methods whereby you went off on your crazy train of accusations about us being pro fusion at seemingly any cost. Part of your rant included VBT . YOU brought VBT into the discussion. YOU were the one who said it worked on adults. I am not asking if it works - I am saying no-one does it on adults, so as yet it does not work. . If you know different and you have evidence then show it. There is no evidence that eating spaghetti Bolognese will cure scoliosis but I don't enter that into a search engine to prove it. I can't prove eating spaghetti Bolognese will not cure scoliosis. Someone would need to prove that it can. This is how logic works.

flerc
07-19-2016, 12:40 PM
Besides insulting and defaming, what else do you know to do?
Did you search in this forum?.. really, do you know how to do it?
Do you think I'm the first saying about adults having today Vbt? Or do you think that also them are crazy, stupid, dishonest..

flerc
07-19-2016, 12:55 PM
There is no evidence There is no evidence There is no evidence There is no evidence There is no evidence There is no evidence There is no evidence There is no evidence There is no evidence....
.
.
.
There is no evidenceThere is no evidenceThere is no evidenceThere is no evidenceThere is no evidenceThere is no evidenceThere is no evidence
There is no evidence that you are not Pooka1. What I should to conclude? I'm trying to understand this new way to reasoning.

flerc
07-19-2016, 01:08 PM
Which is the next step? Deleting this thread.. banning me?.. People without any argument needs the use of power of course!

3sisters
07-19-2016, 03:47 PM
[QUOTE=burdle;166762]You prove it - - you show me adults who have had successful VBT? I don't have to prove VBT isn't done on adults - you have to prove it is!!



I have an adult friend who has personally, successfully, received VBT from Drs. Antonacci, Betz, and Cuddihy. She is mature at 'over 40!' but it is not my place to share her medical history, as that is only for her to choose to do so. Also, some younger adults who are definitely skeletally mature as women; ages 20 and late teens.

Without entering into this whole thread, let me assure you it is being done. Call Drs. ABC in NJ if you need proof of possible eligibility; not to harass them, but any adult candidate who is truly interested. Dr. Braun in New Hampshire has also tethered skeletally mature younger adults.

I am familiar with a surgeon in Germany, also, who is getting on board the VBT program and anticipates this to be the 'go to' surgical answer in the near future. There are approximately twenty surgeons worldwide now performing VBT and parameters are steadily expanding. Feel free to pm me if you want to join a VBT specific forum to learn more about success stories in a supportive environment. felvuse@hotmail.com

I don't participate in this forum regularly; those that say 'it is unproven longterm' cannot deny that there are no guarantees in life, to include with fusion, but this is a risk that is looking awfully good to many of us who are maintaining flexibility and successfully getting on with our lives.

flerc
07-19-2016, 05:56 PM
Thanks Emily for giving us good and reliable information. You are a good and positive woman, thinking only in the present and future and encouraging people to don't give up!. Unfortunately, this is not the environment for people like you.
Warm regards!

Pooka1
07-19-2016, 07:27 PM
Thanks Emily for giving us good and reliable information. You are a good and positive woman, thinking only in the present and future and encouraging people to don't give up!. Unfortunately, this is not the environment for people like you.
Warm regards!

Flerc, maybe you can leave here and go join your buddy Emily wherever she is on the interwebs? Wouldn't that be better for you?

flerc
07-19-2016, 09:23 PM
It would be the best for you, sure.
I joined the Emily's group since some months ago, when she told me about the first adult cases. I posted about this news here and even I posted a thread in the surgical section quoting what Mariaf said. But it seems I'm not good to lead people to realize how good chance, at least much of them, have today. Maybe you could do it better. I hope it.

Pooka1
07-19-2016, 09:40 PM
It would be the best for you, sure.
I joined the Emily's group since some months ago, when she told me about the first adult cases. I posted about this news here and even I posted a thread in the surgical section quoting what Mariaf said. But it seems I'm not good to lead people to realize how good chance, at least much of them, have today. Maybe you could do it better. I hope it.

Is that group where all the people doing PT went? Were any of those kids done with growth and avoided surgery? Were any stapled/tethered/fused?

If any people were successful I assume they would tell the world in every possible forum out of wanting to help others. There are several people who were doing PT and I just wonder what happened to them. If they don't report back then those are data points lost to new people.

flerc
07-19-2016, 11:38 PM
How sick you are my god. Even you don't try to don't make it so obvious that it would make you happy if they would have failed with non surgical options. Look for help.
I continue in contact with many of those good people of this section, you may be sure that the reason that you don't know what happened with them is only because nobody wants to know never more what happened with someone so insane and her work here.

mariaf
08-17-2016, 09:07 AM
To clarify whether or not VBT has been done on adults - yes, it has (at least once to my knowledge) been performed on a 50 year old woman. Her slightly older sister is now scheduled for VBT as well (patient #1 joked that she will no longer be the oldest VBT patient!); the procedure was performed almost a year ago by Drs. Antonacci and his team at the Institute for Spine and Scoliosis in NYC.

With regard to skeletally mature patients (meaning late teens and early 20's), I will separate them from "adult" patients for purposes of this post. The team at the Institute has performed VBT on several skeletally mature young adults, as has Dr. Braun at Dartmouth Hitchcock in NH; and on very select patients Dr. Hoernschmeyer at Missouri Women's and Children's Hospital. In addition, we just learned recently from Dr. Baron Lonner, also in NYC, that he is performing VBT on skeletally mature patients as well.

There is also one surgeon in the UK (Dr. Bernard) who will consider VBT on skeletally mature patients, and he has performed at least a few such surgeries.

I am sure we will hear of more surgeons following suit at some point but that's what we know at this time.

If anyone would like to learn more, we have a very comprehensive body of information regarding VBT on the FB group below, including a list of surgeons in the U.S. and around the world who are performing VBT. There are also over 1,100 members, many of whom have VBT experience that they are willing and happy to share with others, to try to help and support them.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/

mariaf
08-17-2016, 09:20 AM
P.S. Please keep in mind that even the surgeons are still learning. The same questions that were asked, even 6-12 months ago, might get very different responses today. So I would caution anyone about referring to quotes and articles that are not very current/recent. It's a full time job trying to stay current since VBT is still evolving!

For example, one year ago, the surgeons at the Institute were just starting to expand the VBT parameters to include older patients. In fact, there is some thought among surgeons now that the ideal candidate is someone with little growth remaining - the reason being there is much less chance of over correction. Again, they are learning as they go. A few younger patients have, in fact, over corrected and so now they surgeons are very careful to try to take all factors into consideration in each case, and intervene (i.e., perform VBT) at the best possible time.

One year ago, it was only the team at the Institute who patients with little or no growth remaining could turn to. Then we saw Dr. Braun routinely accepting patients (generally older teens) who were done growing for VBT. This week someone reached out after hearing that Dr. Lonner was performing VBT on skeletally mature patients and he confirmed that he was. Does that mean adults? I would say that each case would be evaluated on an individual basis, not just by Dr. Lonner, but by Dr. Antonacci, Dr. Braun, Dr. Hoernschmeyer, etc. As with most advances, there are usually a few surgeons who are willing to go first; then if the results seem positive, others become more open to the idea.

3sisters
08-20-2016, 06:01 PM
Flerc, maybe you can leave here and go join your buddy Emily wherever she is on the interwebs? Wouldn't that be better for you?

Sharon, Flerc is an integral and welcome member of Maria's and my group, as is anyone who is genuinely interested in VBT for their child or themselves. I only come by here occasionally to see if I might be able to help someone; mostly with regards to VBT information. I really do feel denigrated by you on the NSF, and that is a shame, since I come by to help and get personally ridiculed for no valid reason. The place I am on the 'interwebs' is co-admin of an amazing VBT forum; you see it in Maria's signature block. Many people ARE losing out on information that could help them as more of us are driven away from NSF and form our own supportive scoliosis forums (be them PT, VBT, or other.) Flerc's buddies run the biggest, most informative and up-to-date VBT site that reaches everyone that we can- all in a supportive environment.

Pooka1
08-20-2016, 06:23 PM
I only come by here occasionally

If you admit you haven't been following along, why do you question my reason for suggesting flerc would be happier elsewhere?

And apparently he *IS* happier elsewhere. Case closed.

Pooka1
08-20-2016, 06:32 PM
(repost)

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?14327-quot-Driving-people-away-quot-who-why-and-does-it-matter&highlight=driving+people+away

If asking for evidence for claims drives people away then I don't see the problem.

If they have evidence then they will post it. They will WANT to post it. It won't be like pulling teeth. People being driven away is an imaginary problem in terms of mattering to patients and parents. No evidence of treatment efficacy is lost because the people going away seem to be doing so to avoid being asked for evidence. They may feel driven away if they don't want to be asked for evidence.

Again, I don't see the problem. People are free to discuss what they are doing. If they are trying something that has no known evidence of efficacy then they should be told that. As soon as they make claims of efficacy, the requests for evidence should start rolling in. Conservative and alternative methods aspire to be a science. They should want to prove their efficacy instead of it being pulling teeth. People objecting to this are not doing science. Martha Hawes obviously would never object to people asking to see her radiographs to back up her claims. And she certainly would never think to publish without radiographs. You could have invented the most effective PT treatment in the world but if you don't have radiographs proving it, people have to take the claim on faith. Maybe the inventors are satisfied with just helping people who happen to hear about the method and take a leap of faith when they could be helping many, many more people if they publish. Maybe just picking off select people to help is okay rather than trying to help more people.

They can come here to let people know and to recruit but once the claims of efficacy are made, then evidence is required.

Nobody should be driven away for stating a new treatment, admitting there is no evidence of efficacy yet, and offering to help people learn the method to see if it is effective. Nobody should be driven away for repeating what an alternative treatment purveyor told them about curve regression. That is not happening here. What is happening here is pressure to pony up evidence of efficacy claims that drive people away.

Losing people who don't agree evidence is required for claims is an imaginary problem. People may be leaving but that is no loss to the community. Science is the only game in town and will win because it works.

Pooka1
08-20-2016, 06:39 PM
I wrote that with regard to PT treatments.

For VBS, I do not think this forum deserves to have those posts because despite being scientifically based, the VBS posts were attacked on emotional and ignorant grounds and that was countenanced. I had just joined the forum around that time and I have some recollections of the players involved in all that. The criticism was entirely emotional and devoid of reason in my opinion.

VBT has not been similarly attacked and I would do everything I can to prevent that. But I understand why the people involved with VBS early on took the posts to other fora and agree with their decision. This forum shouldn't attempt to duplicate those efforts but people should be pointed there.

I have on many many occasions suggested people leave this forum and join the UK group if they just want support and aren't interested in evidence/science. Scoliosis is a serious subject and everyone should be trying to present and discuss the best evidence available at all times. This forum values evidence and science. If it didn't I wouldn't be here. Others value support and that is great. Everyone should find their most comfortable place.

I will point people towards the other fora for VBS/VBT because that is where the expertise landed for known reasons.

Pooka1
08-20-2016, 06:57 PM
I don't remember if Joe O'Brien and I had any discussions about the purpose of these forums. I suspect that we didn't, and probably had different ideas of what they should be. As moderator of the MIT listserv (which was really the predecessor of these forums, I can tell you that the purpose was to get accurate information to the masses. I'm guessing that Joe probably thought that the purpose was more to connect patients. I think it can be both. -- Linda Racine, 2013

Accurate information. That implies people can recognize accurate information when they encounter it. There is ample evidence they cannot. We had a member tout a particular study dozens and dozens of times that was pretty obviously flawed (garbage in - garbage out) and was finally shown to be so. But that was posted one bazillion times helping nobody.

In the US, science education has been continually undermined and attacked. The chickens are coming home to roost. I hope folks are happy.

AMom
08-20-2016, 11:30 PM
To clarify whether or not VBT has been done on adults - yes, it has (at least once to my knowledge) been performed on a 50 year old woman. Her slightly older sister is now scheduled for VBT as well (patient #1 joked that she will no longer be the oldest VBT patient!); the procedure was performed almost a year ago by Drs. Antonacci and his team at the Institute for Spine and Scoliosis in NYC.

With regard to skeletally mature patients (meaning late teens and early 20's), I will separate them from "adult" patients for purposes of this post. The team at the Institute has performed VBT on several skeletally mature young adults, as has Dr. Braun at Dartmouth Hitchcock in NH; and on very select patients Dr. Hoernschmeyer at Missouri Women's and Children's Hospital. In addition, we just learned recently from Dr. Baron Lonner, also in NYC, that he is performing VBT on skeletally mature patients as well.

There is also one surgeon in the UK (Dr. Bernard) who will consider VBT on skeletally mature patients, and he has performed at least a few such surgeries.

I am sure we will hear of more surgeons following suit at some point but that's what we know at this time.

If anyone would like to learn more, we have a very comprehensive body of information regarding VBT on the FB group below, including a list of surgeons in the U.S. and around the world who are performing VBT. There are also over 1,100 members, many of whom have VBT experience that they are willing and happy to share with others, to try to help and support them.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/

I wonder why orthos would be hesitant to use a tether on skeletally mature patients. (wondering, not criticizing) A mature spine can be straightened as much as is safe (similar to using rods). They would not have to estimate how much growth remains so they wouldn't have to worry about over-correction. If it weren't for the fact that some very young kids have large or nonflexible curves, it seems as though it might even be better to wait until they reach a Risser 4 to perform the surgery. Has anyone said why they are hesitant? Maybe it is because they are waiting to see how the spine responds to the surgery over time before they expand the use of the tether.

Oops, I didn't see Mariaf's post. It looks as though the thought process is shifting as more is learned.

Pooka1
08-20-2016, 11:53 PM
Many people ARE losing out on information that could help them

You have information on the outcomes of various people who were doing PT. People wanting to know if it is worthwhile to try PT might be interested in those outcomes. They are losing out each and every time a person comes on here trying PT and doesn't report the outcome. There is one person who religiously reports on his child every year to his great credit. We don't see that from the other PT players for some reason.

These are still all anecdote but it is still better than nothing at this point.

People who live in glass houses...

mariaf
08-22-2016, 09:13 AM
I wonder why orthos would be hesitant to use a tether on skeletally mature patients. (wondering, not criticizing) A mature spine can be straightened as much as is safe (similar to using rods). They would not have to estimate how much growth remains so they wouldn't have to worry about over-correction. If it weren't for the fact that some very young kids have large or nonflexible curves, it seems as though it might even be better to wait until they reach a Risser 4 to perform the surgery. Has anyone said why they are hesitant? Maybe it is because they are waiting to see how the spine responds to the surgery over time before they expand the use of the tether.

Oops, I didn't see Mariaf's post. It looks as though the thought process is shifting as more is learned.

Hi AMom,

Yes, but you did a great job thinking out loud before you saw my post - you hit it on the head! Most surgeons are waiting to see how the first "test cases" turn out, just as they did with VBT for adolescents. Other reasons (and I am speculating here) might be insurance issues since most insurance companies will look for reasons to deny ANY surgery, and with VBT some carriers are still trying to use the "experimental" tag to avoid payment whenever they can, but the tide IS turning and more insurers are covering VBT in general than even just a few years ago.

You also touched on something very important - timing. The ideal time to perform VBT seems to be when there is some growth left, but not years and years worth, which is one reason why surgeons wait in most cases until around age 10 to perform VBT. You don't want the spine to overcorrect and have to perform a second surgery if you don't have to. On the other hand, in skeletally mature patients or those with very little growth remaining, there is not the potential for as great a correction as in a younger child. Fortunately, those leading the charge with VBT seem to be gaining an even better understanding of when the best time to intervene surgically is, taking other factors into consideration as well.

I also want to add two more surgeons we've become aware of who are now at least considering skeletally mature patients and/or adults - Dr. Jason Bernard in the UK and Dr. Baron Lonner in NYC. I have been corresponding with Dr. Lonner, and am in fact meeting with him in a few weeks. While only Drs. Antonacci/Betz/Cuddihy have so far performed VBT on a mature adult (meaning, say, older than mid 20s), I believe that the surgeons considering skeletally mature adolescents (Drs. Braun, Bernard and Lonner) will start to do so in the not-too-distant future (I will ask Dr. Lonner about this when we meet). I suspect that part of the reason is that adults are just now starting to make inquiries about VBT as the word is spreading that it may be an option for older patients. In fact, there are a few adult members in our Facebook group who are pursuing VBT, one of whom has an appointment with Dr. Lonner next month.

The times they are a changing!

burdle
08-22-2016, 11:06 AM
In UK fusion surgery is done for progressing curves. This means that it can be performed on old adults who have curves that progress through gravity. However I am told that it is never done for pain or rather 'just for pain'. This seems to suggest that VBT will never really be an option for us oldies as I would suggest that our main problem in later life is pain.

I cannot see why a surgeon would opt for 'holding' the curve rather than a full fusion on oldies because why would they take the risk?

mariaf
08-22-2016, 11:18 AM
I cannot see why a surgeon would opt for 'holding' the curve rather than a full fusion on oldies because why would they take the risk?

Sorry if I was unclear. VBT is not intended to just 'hold' the curve in adults. I believe the one adult patient had her curve reduced by over 50%. I do not have the exact numbers in front of me but for argument's sake, let's say she began with a 60 degree curve. It was reduced to roughly 30 degrees or less.

What I meant was that in an adolescent who is tethered, that 60 degree curve could end up in the single digits.

As for why a surgeon would opt for achieving these results vs. full fusion, there are many reasons and benefits of VBT over full fusion.

Pooka1
08-22-2016, 11:33 AM
As for why a surgeon would opt for achieving these results vs. full fusion, there are many reasons and benefits of VBT over full fusion.

Burdle, as Maria said, there are benefits to tethering versus fusion. If you look at that study I posted about range of motion and stiffness with tethers versus normal, the front back bending is considerably preserved. While they did not measure against fusion, fusion would be the end member on range of motion and stiffness. Also, this is a quadruped animal study. It would be more informative if they do these measurements on people, perhaps from radiographs.

I don't know what the current thinking is among the experts but the only issue I can see where a surgeon might suggest fusion over tethering is if the spine can only be straightened enough with fusion to hope to avoid long term disc damage in the unfused areas. Dr. Hey has discussed numerous cases where even smaller curves resulted in damage to the discs over time. That's why he advocates a stitch in time approach where you get the spine as straight as possible as early as possible to hope to save levels later in life.

Dr. Boachie stated in that talk about the importance of having good alignment if you hope to preserve the discs below the fusion.

If the tether can get alignment like fusion then it is better because damage is avoided and you still have ROM.

flerc
08-28-2016, 07:04 AM
Is difficult to believe it, I have seen in the group an xray over 100º going to 20º or less.
It seems that surgeons has not honest reasons to suggest fusion over tethering..

flerc
08-28-2016, 07:38 AM
Spinecor for adults and Vbt in adults are both following the same principle: Bone remodeling. Of course they are using methods too much different, but a big difference is that Vbt surgeons seems to be wisest or more honest and they only accept people with flexible spines.

Pooka1
08-28-2016, 09:05 AM
It seems that surgeons has not honest reasons to suggest fusion over tethering..

I hope 3sisters is reading this. I don't expect any more complaints from her about my suggestions to flerc.

titaniumed
08-28-2016, 12:20 PM
Is difficult to believe it, I have seen in the group an xray over 100º going to 20º or less.


Flerc

Can you throw up the x-rays? I would love to see these!

Ed

flerc
08-28-2016, 04:44 PM
Hi Ed, sorry but is a closed group, not public.

flerc
08-28-2016, 04:54 PM
I hope 3sisters is reading this. I don't expect any more complaints from her about my suggestions to flerc.

Which suggestions?, I hear you. 3sisters and nobody else has nothing to do, also not with the suggestions I could do to you then.

flerc
08-29-2016, 10:11 PM
Oh, the suggestion you did me to leave this forum. Try to think in a rational, honest and healthy way and surely you will not wish anymore to see me or others thinking different to you leaving it.