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pwalia
03-22-2016, 02:27 PM
Hi,

I am thinking of getting the SpineCor brace for adults with scoliosis. I wanted to check if anyone has had luck getting this covered from there insurance. I would like to know how they approached it with the insurance company and how much coverage they could get.

My scoliosis was discovered 10 years back with 25degree thoracic and 30degree lumbar. I cannot walk or stand for more than an hour and I am just 40 years old so want to try anything non-surgical to feel better.

Thanks

Pooka1
03-23-2016, 07:19 AM
Hi and welcome.

I can only recall one adult who had a Spinecor brace on the group but there may have been others. I don't recall if she got insurance to cover it.

There are anecdotal reports that the brace helps with pain in adults.

So just to be clear, you had a 25* T curve and a 30* L at 30 years old. The paradigm is you are not expected to need surgery for progression in your lifetime with those measurements at that age.

Did you curves increase or are they just getting more painful?

Pooka1
03-23-2016, 07:22 AM
Here are three threads that user started on Spinecor in adults.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/search.php?searchid=852969

pwalia
03-23-2016, 02:17 PM
Hi and welcome.

I can only recall one adult who had a Spinecor brace on the group but there may have been others. I don't recall if she got insurance to cover it.

There are anecdotal reports that the brace helps with pain in adults.

So just to be clear, you had a 25* T curve and a 30* L at 30 years old. The paradigm is you are not expected to need surgery for progression in your lifetime with those measurements at that age.

Did you curves increase or are they just getting more painful?

Thanks for your reply. Neither the curves have increased nor has the pain. When I was first diagnosed with Scoliosis at age 30, I still couldn't walk or stand more than an hour. I never found any options other than yoga and have just lived with it. I recently found out about SpineCor and wanted to give it a try as otherwise I dread doing anything that involved walking or standing.

fashionista
06-21-2016, 10:08 PM
Thanks for your reply. Neither the curves have increased nor has the pain. When I was first diagnosed with Scoliosis at age 30, I still couldn't walk or stand more than an hour. I never found any options other than yoga and have just lived with it. I recently found out about SpineCor and wanted to give it a try as otherwise I dread doing anything that involved walking or standing.

Hi,

just wondering what's the update and status w spinecor? i'm looking into different optinos as well

flerc
07-07-2016, 10:55 PM
I strongly recommend to everyone thinking in Spinecor, to try to find a Dr. not belonging to Clear. They uses to put the Spinecor (at least in adults) without any reduction in brace. They are sure that it has not any importance in adults, they definitely has not any idea about why Spinecor works and how important reduction in brace always is!.

Pooka1
07-08-2016, 07:23 AM
Very few medical doctors offer Spinecor because there is no good evidence it works.

That's why mainly chiros offer it. They don't know or care about evidence.

Chiros are not allowed to use the "Dr." title in other counties. In this country where they can use the title, you can find chiro websites that use the title and don't admit the person is a chiro and not a real doctor. It's a problem. Chiro school has been characterized as a trade school and there is evidence they are teaching abject nonsense.

flerc
07-08-2016, 10:30 AM
Very few medical doctors offer Spinecor because there is no good evidence it works.


It depends in what we think that 'works' means. There is enough evidence about stopping progression in adults when it's used with reduction in brace and also an important reduction of pain. I know physicians and physiatrists around the world using it.
Physicians should also not use the Dr. title, they needs to have a doctorate to use it. Chiropractic is an universitary career as I know. Are you saying that those universities are a fraud?

flerc
07-08-2016, 08:20 PM
Hi,

just wondering what's the update and status w spinecor? i'm looking into different optinos as well

You should to see the Spinecor Face Group of Leslie Tyler, there are tons of stories of people using it. Unfortunately there are also Clear Chiropractors, but you may ignore what they says.

Pooka1
07-08-2016, 08:40 PM
There is enough evidence about stopping progression in adults when it's used with reduction in brace and also an important reduction of pain. ?

You mean there is anecdotal evidence for stopping progression that is imagined by lay people. Is there scientific evidence from well-designed studies? I doubt it. How did they rule out the curve stopping on its own?

There is evidence of reduced pain, at least while the brace is worn. Lay people can report reduced pain. They can't report decreased progression due to the brace because even if the progression stopped, it can't be necessarily attributed to brace wear.

I don't believe Spinecor claims to stop progression in adults. They only claim to reduce pain.

flerc
07-09-2016, 01:02 AM
'There is enough evidence about stopping progression in adults when it's used with reduction in brace and also an important reduction of pain.'
Is not what I wanted to say, I said 'when' and I wanted to say 'while'.
It seems that when reduction in brace is achieved (is not something immediate, it is placed being standing up), the reduction is holded while the brace is used. It's not something obvious as it could be with a rigid brace, which is the only one doing the force necessary to not allowing the gravity force to bend the spine again, with the Spinecor the body is doing also the necessary force. They reported some few cases holding some reduction after removing the brace, I don't remember how many time after it was removed. I think they are few, because they rarely get reduction in brace in adults, they don't do anything to achieve it, they don't give any importance to flexibility. The original Spinecor protocol included Gpr sessions in order to gain enough flexibility.
They claim that permanent reduction of the curve is not the goal in adults, but I doubt they would be saying the same about stopping progression.

Pooka1
07-09-2016, 09:52 AM
'There is enough evidence about stopping progression in adults when it's used with reduction in brace and also an important reduction of pain.'
Is not what I wanted to say, I said 'when' and I wanted to say 'while'.
It seems that when reduction in brace is achieved (is not something immediate, it is placed being standing up), the reduction is holded while the brace is used. It's not something obvious as it could be with a rigid brace, which is the only one doing the force necessary to not allowing the gravity force to bend the spine again, with the Spinecor the body is doing also the necessary force. They reported some few cases holding some reduction after removing the brace, I don't remember how many time after it was removed. I think they are few, because they rarely get reduction in brace in adults, they don't do anything to achieve it, they don't give any importance to flexibility. The original Spinecor protocol included Gpr sessions in order to gain enough flexibility.
They claim that permanent reduction of the curve is not the goal in adults, but I doubt they would be saying the same about stopping progression.

There is no evidence Spinecor stops progression in adults FULL STOP.

flerc
07-09-2016, 06:24 PM
Very few medical doctors offer Spinecor because there is no good evidence it works.


If it would be a good reason, at least for adults they should not offer nothing, surgical or nonsurgical, nothing.

flerc
07-09-2016, 06:29 PM
There is no evidence Spinecor stops progression in adults FULL STOP.

Full stop for you, not having this problem. If scoliosis in adults would be a problem for you, you'd try to know if there is some evidence, how it works, if it could be used in your case.. but is not your problem FULL STOP.

Pooka1
07-09-2016, 07:12 PM
Full stop for you, not having this problem. If scoliosis in adults would be a problem for you, you'd try to know if there is some evidence, how it works, if it could be used in your case.. but is not your problem FULL STOP.

This is magical thinking. You expect a treatment to be effective if you have a condition. Treatments are either effective or not in reality separate and apart from who is discussing them.

You said there is evidence Spinecor stops progression in adults. Prove it. I think you are just thinking magically.

flerc
07-09-2016, 08:48 PM
I'm only able to talk following rational thinking, what may be magical thinking for you, I have not idea. Also I don't know what could be an effective treatment for you.
I said about enough evidence proving that progression and pain in adults is stopped WHILE it is worn. Is not clear what happens then, it sure depends on many different factors. Do you say that it could not stop progression in a permanent way? Prove it!
And really which is your point? What are you trying to say? that adults thinking in Spinecor are wasting time and money? prove it! Which do you think is a better option for adults? What would you do if you would have a health problem and there would not be a serious study about something showing that it works? Or do you think that there is one?

burdle
07-11-2016, 04:47 AM
There is no evidence that Spinecor works. Nevertheless many people use it and say it helps them, probably because there is nothing else for them to try and the mind is a powerful tool when it comes to managing a chronic condition.
It is never going to be fashionable or cost effective to do serious research into managing scoliosis while you have people who report success where there is none AND claim it is scientifically proved.

We need to get serious research done so that we can blast these dodgy chiros out of the water completely!

Pooka1
07-11-2016, 07:44 AM
There is no evidence that Spinecor works. Nevertheless many people use it and say it helps them, probably because there is nothing else for them to try and the mind is a powerful tool when it comes to managing a chronic condition.
It is never going to be fashionable or cost effective to do serious research into managing scoliosis while you have people who report success where there is none AND claim it is scientifically proved.

We need to get serious research done so that we can blast these dodgy chiros out of the water completely!

I completely agree.

Pediatric surgeons largely stopped using Spinecor when they "couldn't make it work" to paraphrase one top guy. That's why people have to resort to chiros who don't give a crap about no stinkin' evidence case. :-)

I do believe the anecdotal claims by adults that their pain is lessened while they wear it but we never seem to get reports about when they stop wearing it. It seems likely their pain would return and their curves would progress because the brace has taken over for muscle and they will have less core afterwards. So the claim that it stops progression in adults is not very likely to be true and it probably as bogus as the Danish Twins study. LOL.

flerc
07-11-2016, 08:13 PM
Surgeons used it ever? I think they only recommends what the protocol says, that is only rigid braces and fusion.. everything changed in the world in the last century except this protocol..



I do believe the anecdotal claims by adults that their pain is lessened while they wear it but we never seem to get reports about when they stop wearing it. It seems likely their pain would return and their curves would progress because the brace has taken over for muscle and they will have less core afterwards.

It would be almost true if we were talking about rigid braces. With Spinecor would be probably the same if was not reduction in brace, otherwise sure after using it, muscles should to be stronger and is very probably a significant bone remodeling, that is what led to use Vbt in adults too. Also the neuromuscular system is accustomed to the new stretched posture and will try to keep it.
Anyway you may be believe that the curve will return, surely is not possible to predict it, but nobdy may say thay it is not reasonable to prove it.

LindaRacine
07-12-2016, 02:12 PM
Surgeons used it ever? I think they only recommends what the protocol says, that is only rigid braces and fusion.. everything changed in the world in the last century except this protocol..



It would be almost true if we were talking about rigid braces. With Spinecor would be probably the same if was not reduction in brace, otherwise sure after using it, muscles should to be stronger and is very probably a significant bone remodeling, that is what led to use Vbt in adults too. Also the neuromuscular system is accustomed to the new stretched posture and will try to keep it.
Anyway you may be believe that the curve will return, surely is not possible to predict it, but nobdy may say thay it is not reasonable to prove it.

A surgeon invented the Spinecor brace.

flerc
07-12-2016, 03:41 PM
I know it. I asked him some years ago if the Spinecor would be able to hold a significant reduction in the spine of my daughter and he refused to answer me because he was sure that with a high riser was too late. He was sure that bones cannot change.
As I know, a surgeon invented the TRM too, but they only recommends what the protocol says.

burdle
07-13-2016, 05:07 AM
It was Professor Charles Hilaire Rivard who invented the Spinecor brace.


He was a orthopaedic surgeon. He is retired and it is not clear why his research into alternative scoliosis treatments wasn't continued by his team.

I am unable to find reasons why colleagues of his did not take the brace up and why it is now offered by Chriros?


@Flerc- you seem to imply that you spoke to him?

Pooka1
07-13-2016, 05:34 AM
I am unable to find reasons why colleagues of his did not take the brace up [...]

One surgeon I spoke to said they weren't persuaded by the publications on the purported efficacy of the brace.

Another, Peter Newton, very eminent researchy ped orthopedic surgeon said they did clinical work with the brace but "couldn't make it work." So the guy I talked to who concluded the publications were nonsense was probably right.

If it worked, all pediatric orthopedic surgeons would offer it. As it stands now, very few if any do. It's mainly chiros offering it because they don't know how to assess scientific evidence apparently.

burdle
07-13-2016, 06:19 AM
I know it. I asked him some years ago if the Spinecor would be able to hold a significant reduction in the spine of my daughter and he refused to answer me because he was sure that with a high riser was too late. He was sure that bones cannot change.
As I know, a surgeon invented the TRM too, but they only recommends what the protocol says.

Surgeons continue to offer rigid braces but not Spinecor- this would suggest that this is because Spinecor doesn't work!

Pooka1
07-13-2016, 12:34 PM
As I know, a surgeon invented the TRM too, but they only recommends what the protocol says.

That surgeon only worked with 20 patients TOTAL, double published most of the data without acknowledging it, and was not forthcoming with colleagues.

Not much to hang your hat on in my opinion.

There are only 35 patients ever studied for torso rotation to control scoliosis and the results are a mixed bag.

flerc
07-13-2016, 01:57 PM
It was Professor Charles Hilaire Rivard who invented the Spinecor brace.


He was a orthopaedic surgeon. He is retired and it is not clear why his research into alternative scoliosis treatments wasn't continued by his team.

I am unable to find reasons why colleagues of his did not take the brace up and why it is now offered by Chriros?


@Flerc- you seem to imply that you spoke to him?

Yes Burdle, I had an extensive discussion via email with him because I was thinking to go to Spain (it was not in country) with my daughter, but I should have to be sure that a significant reduction in brace could be possible. Some years after I contacted a Spain Dr. who told me about a very much similar case to my daughter when asked to Dr. Rivas and he said me that he was very happy with that girl who had a reduction around 50% of her curve and he was very sure that after treatment the reduction could remain. He said me that I should not be angry with Dr. Rivas who is a good man and was very much attacked for other surgeons because he did something nonsurgical. And really good without any doubt. Of course surgeons wants to do surgeries, is what they knows to do. And about scoliosis they seems to want to continue doing fusion! Is incredible how much of them as I really know, discourage people about Vbs and Vbt!
If you think that surgeons are absolutely good intentioned and having all the current human knowledge about scoliosis, you have nothing to do in this section. You should to forget scoliosis or have fusion if your curve is enough big or wait until that moment.

flerc
07-13-2016, 02:11 PM
That surgeon only worked with 20 patients TOTAL, double published most of the data without acknowledging it, and was not forthcoming with colleagues.

Not much to hang your hat on in my opinion.

There are only 35 patients ever studied for torso rotation to control scoliosis and the results are a mixed bag.

I was referring to the fact that surgeons do not recommends Spinecor and nothing else because they only recommends what the one century old protocol says.
I don't believe that something like TRM or any other option may be a cure of the scoliosis by her own at least in an adult. I'm sure it's a multifactorial problem, so a combination of treatments treating different factors are needed.

flerc
07-13-2016, 02:17 PM
One surgeon I spoke to said they weren't persuaded by the publications on the purported efficacy of the brace.

Another, Peter Newton, very eminent researchy ped orthopedic surgeon said they did clinical work with the brace but "couldn't make it work." So the guy I talked to who concluded the publications were nonsense was probably right.

If it worked, all pediatric orthopedic surgeons would offer it. As it stands now, very few if any do. It's mainly chiros offering it because they don't know how to assess scientific evidence apparently.

Which was the reduction in brace in the cases that he failed?

Pooka1
07-13-2016, 02:34 PM
Which was the reduction in brace in the cases that he failed?

Are you suggestion Newton missed something or needs your input to interpret his clinical study results?

flerc
07-13-2016, 02:35 PM
If you think that surgeons are absolutely good intentioned and having all the current human knowledge about scoliosis, you have nothing to do in this section. You should to forget scoliosis or have fusion if your curve is enough big or wait until that moment.

You have nothing to do in this thread also if you think that evidence is the only argument that must to be taken into account. Mamamax, the only one adult who used the Spinecor is not any more here since some years ago. You should to talk with people in Face groups or other groups, but remember, having a significant reduction in brace.

flerc
07-13-2016, 02:41 PM
Are you suggestion Newton missed something or needs your input to interpret his clinical study results?

I'm not suggesting nothing. I'm saying that if reduction in brace was not significant, it has not much sense his interpretation.

flerc
07-13-2016, 02:44 PM
And really your comment if you don't know that!.

burdle
07-14-2016, 04:38 AM
Yes Burdle, If you think that surgeons are absolutely good intentioned and having all the current human knowledge about scoliosis, you have nothing to do in this section. You should to forget scoliosis or have fusion if your curve is enough big or wait until that moment.

You know you do say some silly things ... If you weren't so silly I would probably be offended. You know nothing about me or my scoliosis - for the record I have ALWAYS refused surgery, but not for your silly immature reasons of suggesting that surgeons are only happy with the status QUO and are somehow only in it for the money. Perhaps you should looks at SOSORT, the BRS and SAUK in Uk to see the latest impetus towards other methods of treatment. I reject surgery for ME for my INDIVIDUAL reasons but I do believe that if I were to decide my surgeon would have my best interests at heart and would not suggest it if there were other options.

burdle
07-14-2016, 05:47 AM
And now I am getting a bit annoyed, @Flerc.

Not all Scoliosis will progress to surgical levels but people with a significant curve looks for other treatments to help them live with the curve they have so DONT tell me which forum I should post in or insult me in such a way.

Pooka1
07-14-2016, 06:34 AM
And now I am getting a bit annoyed, @Flerc.

Not all Scoliosis will progress to surgical levels but people with a significant curve looks for other treatments to help them live with the curve they have so DONT tell me which forum I should post in or insult me in such a way.

Burdle,

I understand your reaction to Flerc. It is understandable.

When I saw the extent of irrational and emotional thinking exhibited by flerc and other parents of kids with scoliosis, I was shocked at first. When you are managing your child's medical case, the very last thing you need to be is irrational and emotional. You save those for private times away from your child and their surgeon.

I suspect the child's diagnosis sends some people around the bend. They lose it. They do not realize they have lost it. Flerc's reaction is to make irrational, emotional, magical claims. Another parent here thinks they are failing their child if they aren't actively pretending to be a scoliosis researcher and criticizing real scoliosis researchers. Another parent just denies facts.

I bet some/most/all of these parents were not overtly irrational so much of the time before their child's diagnosis but I don't know that.

While a diagnosis of scoliosis in your child may be a REASON to behave badly and be unhelpful on a forum, it is not an EXCUSE.

Watching your child deal with scoliosis is harrowing and I think every parent (without scoliosis) would change places with their child if they could. I cut them slack whenever possible. Sometimes it isn't possible.

flerc
07-14-2016, 11:14 AM
You know you do say some silly things ... If you weren't so silly I would probably be offended. You know nothing about me or my scoliosis - for the record I have ALWAYS refused surgery, but not for your silly immature reasons of suggesting that surgeons are only happy with the status QUO and are somehow only in it for the money. Perhaps you should looks at SOSORT, the BRS and SAUK in Uk to see the latest impetus towards other methods of treatment. I reject surgery for ME for my INDIVIDUAL reasons but I do believe that if I were to decide my surgeon would have my best interests at heart and would not suggest it if there were other options.

Yes, it seems you really thinks I'm stupid as you are saying. I would be really stupid if I'd I be saying that EVERY surgeon wants fusion for ever since I'm talking about surgeons inventing Spinecor and TRM and I said they are good inventions and if you would not show the same Pooka1's thinking, I'd tell you about my relationship with many surgeons, even with some of them absolutely convinced that up today only fusion works, as the surgeon I visit since the firsts x-rays years ago until now.
Certainly is difficult to distinguish if I'm talking with you or Pooka1, 'I agree Burdle' , 'I agree Pooka1' all the time, of course.. both showing the same kind of illogical mind, at least in all threads where I saw you. And you don't seems to realize that I only can to know you, about what you say in the threads I read.. coincidently the same that Pooka1 says, so is logic to believe that you also hate non surgical methods, I don't remember to hear you before saying something against that possibility. Coincidently is also not possible for you to interpret what I say in a rational way. What a rational person believing (as you showed to believe) that every surgeons are absolutely good intentioned and having all the scoliosis knowledge up today, should to do? Of course what I suggested you, don't you believe? Of course all not curves progress to over 50, but you should to follow the watch and wait as I said you.
Coincidently you also don't seem to realize that Pooka1 is not so smart and wise as she pretends to be, really the only conclusion is that she is really sick or having really very dark intentions. What could we believe about someone don't needing and don't believing in non surgical options posting all the day in this section? And surely you think that it has not any importance the serious and unacceptable accusation to parents in this forum trusting in non surgical options, so I think you also are the same kind of person too. She should to be sentenced and is what should to happen if there are reasons to think that judicial system works!.
She is only able to talk in the way you are talking to me, insulting, attacking in every possible way, never talking about scoliosis issues really, just only about certain lack of studies, is all what she can do.. and running to ask help to the moderator when I reply her what she deserves.
So don't feel attacked if I talk with you as if I would be talking with her.

Pooka1
07-14-2016, 11:24 AM
Yes, it seems you really thinks I'm stupid as you are saying. I would be really stupid if I'd I be saying that EVERY surgeon wants fusion for ever since I'm talking about surgeons inventing Spinecor and TRM and I said they are good inventions and if you would not show the same Pooka1's thinking, I'd tell you about my relationship with many surgeons, even with some of them absolutely convinced that up today only fusion works, as the surgeon I visit since the firsts x-rays years ago until now.
Certainly is difficult to distinguish if I'm talking with you or Pooka1, 'I agree Burdle' , 'I agree Pooka1' all the time, of course.. both showing the same kind of illogical mind, at least in all threads where I saw you. And you don't seems to realize that I only can to know you, about what you say in the threads I read.. coincidently the same that Pooka1 says, so is logic to believe that you also hate non surgical methods, I don't remember to hear you before saying something against that possibility. Coincidently is also not possible for you to interpret what I say in a rational way. What a rational person believing (as you showed to believe) that every surgeons are absolutely good intentioned and having all the scoliosis knowledge up today, should to do? Of course what I suggested you, don't you believe? Of course all not curves progress to over 50, but you should to follow the watch and wait as I said you.
Coincidently you also don't seem to realize that Pooka1 is not so smart and wise as she pretends to be, really the only conclusion is that she is really sick or having really very dark intentions. What could we believe about someone don't needing and don't believing in non surgical options posting all the day in this section? And surely you think that it has not any importance the serious and unacceptable accusation to parents in this forum trusting in non surgical options, so I think you also are the same kind of person too. She should to be sentenced and is what should to happen if there are reasons to think that judicial system works!.
She is only able to talk in the way you are talking to me, insulting, attacking in every possible way, never talking about scoliosis issues really, just only about certain lack of studies, is all what she can do.. and running to ask help to the moderator when I reply her what she deserves.
So don't feel attacked if I talk with you as if I would be talking with her.

This is irrational and emotional. You are making my point.

flerc
07-14-2016, 12:10 PM
If it could be true, you could understand it, but you cannot.

flerc
07-14-2016, 12:14 PM
One surgeon I spoke to said they weren't persuaded by the publications on the purported efficacy of the brace.

Another, Peter Newton, very eminent researchy ped orthopedic surgeon said they did clinical work with the brace but "couldn't make it work." So the guy I talked to who concluded the publications were nonsense was probably right.

If it worked, all pediatric orthopedic surgeons would offer it. As it stands now, very few if any do. It's mainly chiros offering it because they don't know how to assess scientific evidence apparently.

And what happened with this Pooka1? Did you asked him about if it was reduction in brace or not?

flerc
07-14-2016, 12:23 PM
Anyway I'm not too much interested in knowing that. If he is a pediatric surgeon, I supposed he only used it in kids and there are technical issues leading to think that probably is better in them a rigid brace. I'm interested in Spinecor for adults.. as we were talking about.

burdle
07-15-2016, 06:54 AM
Yes, it seems you really thinks I'm stupid as you are saying. I would be really stupid if I'd I be saying that EVERY surgeon wants fusion for ever since I'm talking about surgeons inventing Spinecor and TRM and I said they are good inventions and if you would not show the same Pooka1's thinking, I'd tell you about my relationship with many surgeons, even with some of them absolutely convinced that up today only fusion works, as the surgeon I visit since the firsts x-rays years ago until now.
Certainly is difficult to distinguish if I'm talking with you or Pooka1, 'I agree Burdle' , 'I agree Pooka1' all the time, of course.. both showing the same kind of illogical mind, at least in all threads where I saw you. And you don't seems to realize that I only can to know you, about what you say in the threads I read.. coincidently the same that Pooka1 says, so is logic to believe that you also hate non surgical methods, I don't remember to hear you before saying something against that possibility. Coincidently is also not possible for you to interpret what I say in a rational way. What a rational person believing (as you showed to believe) that every surgeons are absolutely good intentioned and having all the scoliosis knowledge up today, should to do? Of course what I suggested you, don't you believe? Of course all not curves progress to over 50, but you should to follow the watch and wait as I said you.
Coincidently you also don't seem to realize that Pooka1 is not so smart and wise as she pretends to be, really the only conclusion is that she is really sick or having really very dark intentions. What could we believe about someone don't needing and don't believing in non surgical options posting all the day in this section? And surely you think that it has not any importance the serious and unacceptable accusation to parents in this forum trusting in non surgical options, so I think you also are the same kind of person too. She should to be sentenced and is what should to happen if there are reasons to think that judicial system works!.
She is only able to talk in the way you are talking to me, insulting, attacking in every possible way, never talking about scoliosis issues really, just only about certain lack of studies, is all what she can do.. and running to ask help to the moderator when I reply her what she deserves.
So don't feel attacked if I talk with you as if I would be talking with her.


Your post is almost unintelligible. Your English is great as far as it goes but you need to get it better to really effectively communicate.

I am flattered that you 'confuse' me with Pooka1 but for the record I have not posted - 'I agree with pooka' unless it was in context of a specific point'. However she is logical and presents scientific evidence for what she says which you counter with emotional streams of invective.

My problem with the Spinecor brace for adults is simple ( so that you can understand). It was invented by a surgeon which as an adult with surgery levels of Scoliosis interests me; It is not taken up by the surgeons in US or UK as an option because they could not make it work. I am sure you can drag up a whole load of people who will claim success with it BUT you have to evaluate what they deem success. At then end of the day a surgeon will say 'does it help the scoliosis? If it did so many adults would not be presenting themselves for surgery in the first place. Certainly surgeons in the UK turn adults away for surgery. They simply say it is a last resort. Certainly with me they say that yes I could have it but I might be swapping one pain for another and lose a whole lot of mobility. They do not offer me the brace though.

And so the creepy chiros take Spinecor up- well they would- they have nothing to offer a scoliosis patient but they will take their money any way they can.

You seem happy to think that surgeons are somehow 'out for money' but are blind to the chiros.

Pooka1
07-15-2016, 07:17 AM
At then end of the day a surgeon will say 'does it help the scoliosis? If it did so many adults would not be presenting themselves for surgery in the first place.

This excellent point is actively ignored by many folks in this sandbox.

The textbook case of ignoring the actual results is Schroth in Germany, invented by a lay person, around for over 90 years, studied by a capable and competent doctor/researcher (the inventor's grandson) for about 10 of those, about 30,000 patients over about 10 years, and STILL no evidence people are able to avoid surgery for life. The researcher abandoned it and is now bracing kids also. He "couldn't make it work."

Schroth is still a fringe treatment in Germany and surgeries go on as usual. No decrease in surgery due to Schroth has ever been shown.

Surgery should be a last resort and surgeons approach it that way. Surgery helped my daughters cut their losses which is huge. Normal is off the table. The best you can do at that point is cut losses. My daughters have their lives back. They would be house bound or dead without surgery. We had no choice. Maybe others do have a choice.

I suspect people see my demands for evidence for conservative treatments as bitterness over my daughters needing surgery and bracing failing one of them. That is simply not true. What motivates me is the lying to kids and browbeating them to wear a brace or do PT where the evidence case for avoiding surgery for life is non-existent.

One thing I am very bitter about is that my kids presented too soon before stapling or tethering was more established. I wish we had that option.

The word needs an effective conservative treatment for scoliosis in kids and adults. Unfortunately, the world is still waiting.

flerc
07-15-2016, 03:09 PM
Your post is almost unintelligible. Your English is great as far as it goes but you need to get it better to really effectively communicate.

I am flattered that you 'confuse' me with Pooka1 but for the record I have not posted - 'I agree with pooka' unless it was in context of a specific point'. However she is logical and presents scientific evidence for what she says which you counter with emotional streams of invective.

My problem with the Spinecor brace for adults is simple ( so that you can understand). It was invented by a surgeon which as an adult with surgery levels of Scoliosis interests me; It is not taken up by the surgeons in US or UK as an option because they could not make it work. I am sure you can drag up a whole load of people who will claim success with it BUT you have to evaluate what they deem success. At then end of the day a surgeon will say 'does it help the scoliosis? If it did so many adults would not be presenting themselves for surgery in the first place. Certainly surgeons in the UK turn adults away for surgery. They simply say it is a last resort. Certainly with me they say that yes I could have it but I might be swapping one pain for another and lose a whole lot of mobility. They do not offer me the brace though.

And so the creepy chiros take Spinecor up- well they would- they have nothing to offer a scoliosis patient but they will take their money any way they can.

You seem happy to think that surgeons are somehow 'out for money' but are blind to the chiros.

Say me what you don't understand and I'll rewrite it in other way. Basically I said you that you seems to be a clone of Pooka1, certainly I'll talk to both of you, you (since this moment burdle and pooka1) seems to be here in order to convince people to take fusion. If it's not true in the case of Burdle, plaease quote some post showing it, I only see comments against Chiropractors (you also really seems to hate them) and Spinecor. You seems to don't read what I say even in this thread, I recommended you to ignore what Clear chiropractors says, because I don't like them too much since they don't understand why reduction in brace is necessary. But not every chiropractors belongs to Clear. If you think that SOSORT is something serious you should to know that a Chiropractor belonging to SOSORT is who 'invented' the Spinecor for adults, not one of Clear as I know.

The only 2 recurrent arguments are that all surgeons are absolutely wise and honest and since they only recommends fuison, nothing else works. The other is that you may say that there is not a contundent studie showing a non surgical method working and since reality is for you what such kind of studies shows, then none of them works. You repeated these arguments thousands and thousands of times and will repeat them for ever or until a scoliosis cure for everyone arises or someone do something against your insane work here.

'I suspect people see my demands for evidence for conservative treatments as bitterness over my daughters needing surgery and bracing failing one of them'.
Yes, is what many people around the world thinks, but many others are sure that you are a troll receiving an important amount of money for doing your job here. I'm not at all sure about this, but certainly, if you think that maybe others do have a choice, why do you are doing this? Why are you trying that nobody can have a choice? Certainly what you said Is inconsistent with this ''What motivates me is the lying to kids and browbeating them to wear a brace or do PT where the evidence case for avoiding surgery for life is non-existent' How they could have a choice to avoid surgery if all non surgical is a lie as you are saying?
Did you realize that also do not exists any evidence about people having fusion and a reasonably normal life for life?

Is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR for all the world your desperate intention for aborting every thread here, your efforts to discourage everyone and convince them that only fusion works. It seems to be the only purpose of your life. If you would be a good and not insane person you would not try to lead people to fusion thinking that there is not other option. Only you know the true, why are you doing this but fortunately thousands of people thinking in non surgical options thinks that this is a prosurgical dark forum, and fortunately there are a lot of groups where you cannot do your pathetic and too much evident work (or job?). You have not arguments, just only those I mentioned, and of course people are not stupid and don't need you to repeating them millions of times and since they are not stupid, they do not thinks are proving that non surgical options don't works, as you wish they believe. And none moderator/administrator of those groups would protects you, so there is no way to having you there doing what you only can do here of course!.

Pooka1
07-15-2016, 03:27 PM
This is irrational and emotional magical thinking. You are not following along nor do you seem to grasp relevant facts. It is abundantly clear that parents here would subject their children to treatments thinking they are avoiding surgery for life when there is no evidence for that. I don't think that is a good thing. You do. That is probably because you will never be the one who has to wear a brace or do PT or be scared into doing it.

I think there are parents here who would pursue treatments with 1%, 0.1%, and even 0.01% chance of success. When the treatment is terrible, that is not rational.


Say me what you don't understand and I'll rewrite it in other way. Basically I said you that you seems to be a clone of Pooka1, certainly I'll talk to both of you, you (since this moment burdle and pooka1) seems to be here in order to convince people to take fusion. If it's not true in the case of Burdle, plaease quote some post showing it, I only see comments against Chiropractors (you also really seems to hate them) and Spinecor. You seems to don't read what I say even in this thread, I recommended you to ignore what Clear chiropractors says, because I don't like them too much since they don't understand why reduction in brace is necessary. But not every chiropractors belongs to Clear. If you think that SOSORT is something serious you should to know that a Chiropractor belonging to SOSORT is who 'invented' the Spinecor for adults, not one of Clear as I know.

The only 2 recurrent arguments are that all surgeons are absolutely wise and honest and since they only recommends fuison, nothing else works. The other is that you may say that there is not a contundent studie showing a non surgical method working and since reality is for you what such kind of studies shows, then none of them works. You repeated these arguments thousands and thousands of times and will repeat them for ever or until a scoliosis cure for everyone arises or someone do something against your insane work here.

'I suspect people see my demands for evidence for conservative treatments as bitterness over my daughters needing surgery and bracing failing one of them'.
Yes, is what many people around the world thinks, but many others are sure that you are a troll receiving an important amount of money for doing your job here. I'm not at all sure about this, but certainly, if you think that maybe others do have a choice, why do you are doing this? Why are you trying that nobody can have a choice? Certainly what you said Is inconsistent with this ''What motivates me is the lying to kids and browbeating them to wear a brace or do PT where the evidence case for avoiding surgery for life is non-existent' How they could have a choice to avoid surgery if all non surgical is a lie as you are saying?
Did you realize that also do not exists any evidence about people having fusion and a reasonably normal life for life?

Is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR for all the world your desperate intention for aborting every thread here, your efforts to discourage everyone and convince them that only fusion works. It seems to be the only purpose of your life. If you would be a good and not insane person you would not try to lead people to fusion thinking that there is not other option. Only you know the true, why are you doing this but fortunately thousands of people thinking in non surgical options thinks that this is a prosurgical dark forum, and fortunately there are a lot of groups where you cannot do your pathetic and too much evident work (or job?). You have not arguments, just only those I mentioned, and of course people are not stupid and don't need you to repeating them millions of times and since they are not stupid, they do not thinks are proving that non surgical options don't works, as you wish they believe. And none moderator/administrator of those groups would protects you, so there is no way to having you there doing what you only can do here of course!.

flerc
07-15-2016, 03:36 PM
And probably you would never need to have fusion. Fusion is not terrible for you. Do you believe that really has any sense what you are saying or you are simply doing your job here?

Pooka1
07-15-2016, 04:25 PM
And probably you would never need to have fusion. Fusion is not terrible for you. Do you believe that really has any sense what you are saying or you are simply doing your job here?

Fusion is about cutting losses. Normal is off the table. You are having difficulty with this because you are magically comparing not being fused to normal. If fusion wasn't the only option for some people then they would never be fused. But people are fused. Therefore it was their only option.

You seem to think that because fusion does not restore normalcy then there has to be an effective conservative option. That is magical thinking. These patients have to cut their losses. Browbeating kids when there is no evidence for avoiding fusion for life is sad.

You never work the problem logically which is why you continue to struggle with this material.

flerc
07-15-2016, 04:52 PM
You seems to think that iatrogenia cannot be attributed to fusion. It seems that you ignore the irreversible effects of such kind of old (unacceptable old) kind of surgery in every case, even in the most successful cases. If you would be talking about Vbs/Vbt it would be different. Why you don't promote these kind of surgeries? Or are you recommending people decided to surgery in the surgery section to select these new kind of surgeries?

'If fusion wasn't the only option for some people then they would never be fused. But people are fused. Therefore it was their only option.'
And you are talking about irrational and magical thinking? My god!

And take care about what you say about parents of this forum, I know what your insane mind said about us and you seems close to repeat it.
And try to not be so pathetically obvious with your desperate intentions in aborting every thread as of course you are doing. This is a thread of Spinecor for adults and is clear that you have nothing to say!.

burdle
07-18-2016, 04:43 AM
And take care about what you say about parents of this forum, I know what your insane mind said about us and you seems close to repeat it.
And try to not be so pathetically obvious with your desperate intentions in aborting every thread as of course you are doing. This is a thread of Spinecor for adults and is clear that you have nothing to say!.



I don't know about the US but in the UK Chiros are NOTHING to do with the NHS and thus the 'conventional' health system. This means that a doctor will NEVER prescribe going to see a chiropractor as a course of treatment. This means that anyone who does is 'outside' the mainstream healthcare while they have chiro treatment. This is fine - it is their choice, but it also means that the chiros can say and do anything. If you are in pain and have a curving spine then the sweet talk of a chiro telling you that they can help you, by putting you in a brace etc. is very appealing. Everyone who goes to a chiro LOVES THE ATTENTION they will get. And why not - compared with 'no help' unless you are a surgical candidate you can see why. It only becomes a serious problem when a chiro rubbishes the work of an orthopaedic surgeon- someone who has had years of training- not someone who has just trained on students with imaginary back problems- but someone who has had the whole spectrum of scoliosis coming through his doors and is QUALIFIED to make a judgment - then there IS a problem. And the problem is made worse by people like 'flerc' who cannot grasp the logicality of it and is 'blind' to facts.

I personally don't care if an adult chooses to wear spinecor - I hope it gives them some pain relief- but when we stray into the territory of treating children by scare tactics who may well end up having to have surgery maybe too late then it is a different matter.

Don't simply 'lump' chiros into CLEAR and non-CLEAR- this is ignorance on your part. Chiros have existed for a long-time - CLEAR is relatively new - straying into the field of Scoliosis because they are taking advantage of 'gap in the market'. And now that CLEAR has/is being discredited ( look at the TRACTION CHAIR study where their treatment has actually been shown to harm thoracic curves) some of the chiros have left and morphed into SCOLISMART- who are just pushing another well-packaged, expensive course of treatment, by discrediting surgery. And fools like you ( flerc) fall for it every time.

Pooka1
07-18-2016, 06:43 AM
Don't simply 'lump' chiros into CLEAR and non-CLEAR- this is ignorance on your part. Chiros have existed for a long-time - CLEAR is relatively new - straying into the field of Scoliosis because they are taking advantage of 'gap in the market'. And now that CLEAR has/is being discredited ( look at the TRACTION CHAIR study where their treatment has actually been shown to harm thoracic curves) some of the chiros have left and morphed into SCOLISMART- who are just pushing another well-packaged, expensive course of treatment, by discrediting surgery. And fools like you ( flerc) fall for it every time.

This is such an excellent point.

It is understandable that people are afraid of surgery. Chiros take this situation and enflame it and then charge boatloads of money for useless treatments that have never put out any fires. Unfortunately, there will also be a market that chiros can exploit.

Chiro school has been compared to a trade school. It shows. CLEAR, NOT-CLEAR, ANY and ALL chiro sits on throne of an imaginary concept and these people have ZERO success treating scoliosis other than perhaps pain associated with it. But even there, chiro for low back pain is no better than other modalities.

The same CLEAR/Scolismart Chiros will keep morphing into new groups to avoid calls for evidence and the fact that their program isn't helping anyone and so they can tantalize and say the NEW program is better. Well the new programs are just as ineffective as the old or else they would never need to distance themselves from the old program. And how many people wasted money on CLEAR? And how many people are wasting money on Scolismart? And how many people will waste money on what Scolismart morphs into? The market is always there to be exploited and these people are never told they are experimental subjects. Why are they paying to be experimental subjects? Because they are not told they are experimental subjects.

burdle
07-18-2016, 07:47 AM
[QUOTE=flerc;166663]You seems to think that iatrogenia cannot be attributed to fusion. It seems that you ignore the irreversible effects of such kind of old (unacceptable old) kind of surgery in every case, even in the most successful cases. If you would be talking about Vbs/Vbt it would be different. Why you don't promote these kind of surgeries? Or are you recommending people decided to surgery in the surgery section to select these new kind of surgeries?



VBT/VBS is not suitable for adults and only suitable for some children's curves. It sound a marvellous solution and of course anyone would support it as a preference to fusion if/when it works , but stop going around suggesting that it can replace fusion surgery in all cases because it can't, and that people somehow (me) have a vested interested in fusion surgery, because I don't.

Interestingly Scolismart are 'cosying' up to surgeons performing VBT e.g Dr. Randall Betz and publishing picture of him with their team. They are sort of presenting Scolismart treatment as a necessary fore-runner for VBT - suggesting that it makes the spine more flexible' before the VBT surgery. I have been in contact with HARMS, where Dr Betz is a board member, who have confirmed that they do not recommend or acknowledge Scolismart treatment for Scoliosis and I have asked them to clarify why he is allowing his name to be 'used' in this way. If you want to waste your money - go-ahead - they will welcome any one with open arms - but stop giving them the medical validity that they crave.

Pooka1
07-18-2016, 07:57 AM
Interestingly Scolismart are 'cosying' up to surgeons performing VBT e.g Dr. Randall Betz and publishing picture of him with their team. They are sort of presenting Scolismart treatment as a necessary fore-runner for VBT - suggesting that it makes the spine more flexible' before the VBT surgery. I have been in contact with HARMS, where Dr Betz is a board member, who have confirmed that they do not recommend or acknowledge Scolismart treatment for Scoliosis and I have asked them to clarify why he is allowing his name to be 'used' in this way. If you want to waste your money - go-ahead - they will welcome any one with open arms - but stop giving them the medical validity that they crave.

THANK YOU Burdle!!! OMG.

Linda, can you please pin this or make it a sticky post or whatever to the top of the forum so people can see it?

Seeing CLEAR chiros in a photo with Dr. Betz made me almost throw up in my mouth.

Pooka1
07-18-2016, 08:03 AM
You seems to think that iatrogenia cannot be attributed to fusion. It seems that you ignore the irreversible effects of such kind of old (unacceptable old) kind of surgery in every case, even in the most successful cases. If you would be talking about Vbs/Vbt it would be different. Why you don't promote these kind of surgeries? Or are you recommending people decided to surgery in the surgery section to select these new kind of surgeries?


VBT/VBS is not suitable for adults and only suitable for some children's curves. It sound a marvellous solution and of course anyone would support it as a preference to fusion if/when it works , but stop going around suggesting that it can replace fusion surgery in all cases because it can't, and that people somehow (me) have a vested interested in fusion surgery, because I don't.

Flerc wrote this after I had lamented about VBS/VBT not being established enough when my kids needed it. Flerc is not able to follow along.

Furthermore, I am just relaying my understanding of the various evidence cases. That Flerc thinks I "promote" anything is again his not following along. Discussing whether something has evidence or not is not promoting or denigrating. It is stating the evidence case. Flerc never wants to acknowledge the poor evidence case for alternative treatments and so he elides this point continually.

flerc
07-18-2016, 10:23 AM
What has to do what you said? Is not clear if you think that today is established enough or not yet. Are you talking about Vbt as you never stop to talking about fusion? I'm not affirming nothing, I'm only asking. You should have never been here. Your only one purpose of course is to discourage people about non surgical treatments. Do you think that people is stupid and don't realize it?
How many times we discussed this point of evidence? You have all the time to do your job here, I don't. I will open a thread about this point and I will quote it all the time you begin with your 'There is no evidence' My God!.

flerc
07-18-2016, 10:29 AM
And if you want to say something about my behaviour here, of course you know you have not any kind of authority, since you did a very much serious accusation to parents of this forum, you should to be convicted!.

flerc
07-18-2016, 10:40 AM
Fusion is about cutting losses. Normal is off the table. You are having difficulty with this because you are magically comparing not being fused to normal. If fusion wasn't the only option for some people then they would never be fused. But people are fused. Therefore it was their only option.

You seem to think that because fusion does not restore normalcy then there has to be an effective conservative option. That is magical thinking. These patients have to cut their losses. Browbeating kids when there is no evidence for avoiding fusion for life is sad.

You never work the problem logically which is why you continue to struggle with this material.

And certainly I talked about fusion iatrogenia after you said this. Browbeating kids to have fusion is not sad for you..

flerc
07-18-2016, 11:28 AM
If fusion wasn't the only option for some people then they would never be fused. But people are fused. Therefore it was their only option.


You may be sure that many people having them or their kids fusion, didn't try with something else before, after reading what you said all the day in this prosurgical forum. What do you feel about this? Is not sad for you? Are you happy thinking how effective your work was?

Pooka1
07-18-2016, 11:35 AM
Browbeating kids to have fusion is not sad for you..

This makes no sense. Nobody needs to be browbeaten into surgery. You are spiralling into further emotion, irration, and magical thinking.

flerc
07-18-2016, 01:37 PM
Kids are forced to use a brace or to having fusion or do you believe that they decides by themselves? But is only sad when they are braced, no fusioned. Parents bracing their sons are ignorants, sadistics and all what you said thousands of times here.
And tell me

You may be sure that many people having them or their kids fusion, didn't try with something else before, after reading what you said all the day in this prosurgical forum. What do you feel about this? Is not sad for you? Are you happy thinking how effective your work was?

How do you feel?

flerc
07-18-2016, 02:01 PM
Parents bracing their sons are ignorants, sadistics and all what you said thousands of times here.

If this would not be a prosurgical forum, parents here would not need to denounce your calumnies. The owners of this forum would have fired you time ago!.

Pooka1
07-18-2016, 04:25 PM
This is a pro-evidence-either-way forum. You misunderstand that and misinterpret the fact that there is no good evidence for conservative treatments to avoid progression to be "pro-surgery".

There is no such thing as "pro-surgery". You made that label up to avoid admitting there is no good evidence for conservative treatments.

Nobody is "pro-surgery". That is just the label you put on people who understand the evidence case. You clearly do not.

It is okay to try treatments that are unproven. But you shouldn't lie tochildren to make them comply. You disagree with that. Fine. This is what I am talking about in terms of honesty and rationality and how long the odds are for any conservative treatment to let people avoid surgery for life.

You avoid the real issues and contribute confused nonsense.