PDA

View Full Version : "Pro-Surgery" and "Anti-Surgery" are meaningless terms



Pooka1
03-12-2016, 12:10 PM
Some people on this forum seems to think there are two groups, "pro-surgery" and "anti-surgery." These terms are misused so often that they are meaningless.

"Pro-surgery" is often used incorrectly to mean a position that is against conservative treatments. In fact nobody is against conservative treatments THAT WORK. That last bit is the critical part. People who are realistic about the evidence case often end up with surgery but it isn't because they think surgery is great. It is because there is no conservation treatment that can help them.

So a parent that agrees to fusion for her child is not "pro-surgery" but rather accepting the evidence that there is no alternative to surgery.

"Pro-surgery" is also often used to refer to people "giving up" on the notion of conservative treatments or not giving them a chance in the first place. Here is where a keen eye and feel for the evidence case can inform a person or parent about whether a conservative treatment is worthwhile to try and how much cajoling is ethical in the case of a child. This area can be grey. One way to clear it up is to state exactly what is known and not known. Even a teenager can make a rational decision if given an honest rendition of the fact case as balanced against hope.

Everyone is "anti-surgery" in the sense that nobody would want it if it wasn't necessary. This term is often applied to people trying conservative treatments in the hope of avoiding surgery (kids wearing bracing or doing PT, etc.). People in this group still have a option because they don't need surgery now and so can try conservative treatments. They are probably not philosophically opposed to surgery but just being rational in trying to avoid it if possible.

There are a few parents who are "anti-surgery" in the strict sense of having a child who surgeons agree would benefit from surgery but still refuses it. They are philosophically opposed to spinal fusion no matter the consequences of refusing treatment for their child. Those cases are thankfully rare. I have a hypothesis that these parents are convinced that if something went wrong that they could never forgive themselves. That is a legitimate concern that must be balanced against negative consequences to their child from not having surgery. The parents should get counseling to help them figure out the risk/reward situation for their child and themselves.

I think these terms are not helpful because they are misused, misunderstood, and mainly emotion-driven as opposed to rationality-driven. And indeed almost all of the uses of these terms comes from the emotion-driven crowd. When we see that, it is a good sign that it isn't helpful.

flerc
03-12-2016, 02:56 PM
There are a few parents who are "anti-surgery" in the strict sense of having a child who surgeons agree would benefit from surgery but still refuses it. They are philosophically opposed to spinal fusion no matter the consequences of refusing treatment for their child.

Are you saying these parents are here in this forum?

Pooka1
03-12-2016, 08:35 PM
Si.

.

.


.

.

rohrer01
03-13-2016, 05:55 AM
I have met the victim of one of these parents who was in the custody of the anti-surgery father. It nearly killed her. Her mother, upon her turning 18, flew her cross country and got her on her insurance so she could have the surgery. She was still left deformed and disabled, permanently. She was forced to abort a child she really wanted because the deformity was let go so long that it couldn't be fixed enough that she could live through a pregnancy. How sad! All of this could have been avoided if her father had consented to surgery when she was younger. Of course those were the days of the good old Harrington rods, but she could have had revisions if things started going in the wrong direction. But she wasn't given a choice. Obviously her choice was to have the surgery and live. But the precious life of a baby that was sorely wanted was lost as a consequence of letting it go too far. She is not on the forums as far as I know. She has almost died a few times over breathing issues and has been told she had only a couple of years to live. That was a couple of years ago. If she's home alone and another episode happens, she will die young as a consequence of a parent's decision. There could have been so much sadness and pain avoided. She was forced to go to school and be teased and ridiculed as well. How sad.

flerc
03-13-2016, 07:42 AM
I have met the victim on one of these parents who was in the custody of the anti-surgery father.

Are you also saying that these parents are here in this forum?

flerc
03-13-2016, 07:49 AM
Si.

.

.


.

.
Why you don't reply in English so everyone here may be sure about what you said? Do you are afraid?

Pooka1
03-13-2016, 10:38 AM
If you were around the bend, how would you know it?

flerc
03-13-2016, 12:08 PM
Ok, is enough clear that you gave an affirmative answer. You said 'Yes' in Spanish, knowing what 'Si' means it and you are not denying it.

rohrer01
03-13-2016, 05:45 PM
Are you also saying that these parents are here in this forum?

None of them are on the forum.

flerc
03-13-2016, 08:57 PM
Ok, is enough clear that you gave an affirmative answer. You said 'Yes' in Spanish, knowing what 'Si' means it and you are not denying it.

Now you must to say who are those parents and you must to prove what you said. I have reported your post in order to give this forum (risponsablies, owners, moderators..) the chance to ban you, is what they must to do. To delete this thread or close it would not save them of the direct responsability they have. And of course, if they ban me it would be absolutely clear a confabulation allowing you what you are doing since many years ago.
What you said if it's not true, is against the law, calumnies are punishable by law, and deleting or changing what you said will not be useful. Don't be so sure that anonymity in forums turns legal what you did. I did a legal copy about this thread and all your posts insulting parents trusting non surgical options (in your language may be used other term when someone say others 'ignorants', desperates, irrationals.. ) and also the action taken and not taken by this forum. This exceed every limit of course.
So say who are those parents and prove what you said!

Pooka1
03-13-2016, 09:26 PM
Now you must to say who are those parents and you must to prove what you said. I have reported your post in order to give this forum (responsibilities, owners, moderators..) the chance to ban you, is what they must to do. To delete this thread or close it would not save them of the direct responsibility they have. And of course, if they ban me it would be absolutely clear a confabulation allowing you what you are doing since many years ago.
What you said if it's not true, is against the law, calumnies are punishable by law, and deleting or changing what you said will not be useful. Don't be so sure that anonymity in forums turns legal what you did. I did a legal copy about this thread and all your posts insulting parents trusting non surgical options (in your language may be used other term when someone say others 'ignorants', desperates, irrationals.. ) and also the action taken and not taken by this forum. This exceed every limit of course.
So say who are those parents and prove what you said!

I have decided I am probably going to have to pray for you.

flerc
03-13-2016, 09:56 PM
Why you should to pray for me? What are you thinking to do? I should to be afraid?
Everyone would say that you should to pray for you.


They are philosophically opposed to spinal fusion no matter the consequences of refusing treatment for their child.

It's enough clear up to now that this is only a coward lie. A too much serious lie.

Pooka1
03-13-2016, 10:04 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENdNMPZnbYo

flerc
03-13-2016, 10:35 PM
Ok, laugh all what you want. I think it's a definitive proof that your accusation to one of the parents in this forum is absolutely false. You think that you can do everything because this forum allows you to insult us, but of course this is something different, only a very much sick mind may lie in this way saying what you said. But is a calumny anyway, regardless your mental state.

Pooka1
03-13-2016, 10:45 PM
Leave me alone. Obsess about someone else.

flerc
03-13-2016, 11:27 PM
Leave me alone. Obsess about someone else.

You don't leave alone parents here, just only those opting for surgery. You are accusing all of us since you refuse to say who are those parents. A too much serious acussation