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flerc
01-20-2016, 10:47 PM
http://www.scoliosisacademy.com/3d-bracing.html?gclid=CP_WgLXvucoCFRMGkQodkFUBUQ
Finally someone saying (although not everything) why is too much important reduction in brace and also referring to growth as a force.

kennedy
01-21-2016, 12:15 AM
i agree. but im my case when i was diagnosed mine was 43 degrees in brace was 41 degrees. to my knowledge

flerc
01-21-2016, 06:59 AM
They are ignorants irresponsibles! They should not allow to use brace without a significant reduction in.

Pooka1
01-21-2016, 06:59 AM
These are chiros. They are the same guys who didn't seem to understand that the one case of hysterical scoliosis that they had was not like all the AIS cases.

flerc
01-21-2016, 12:46 PM
Facts are facts regardless who may be saying those facts .. also they are quoting what wise researchers said. Reductions in brace over 40% is a fact, it's not usual to see in Internet probably because it seems that nobody realize how important, certainly necessary it is. Or they know but they don't want to reduce the number of clients paying for a brace, so with or without reduction in brace, they sell it anyway!.

flerc
01-21-2016, 04:21 PM
And of course is important in adults too. Probably even more important, gravity force is the only one permanent force after growth and Wolff's law tends to curving even more what is curve, the hard combination leading to the scoliosis vicious cycle, broken with reduction in brace.
I don't know why nobody is selling rigid braces allowing movement. We are in the XXI century my God!

flerc
01-22-2016, 10:41 AM
I don't know why nobody is selling rigid braces allowing movement. We are in the XXI century my God!

Of course Boston providers are getting money, Cheneau providers are getting good money too.. scolibrace providers too.. Why braces providers may want to do something impossible to do in past centuries? What a stupid question I did!.

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 11:03 AM
Facts are facts regardless who may be saying those facts ..

Chiros and facts are largely unacquainted with each other. The entire field was founded on a lie... subluxations. Chiro has only been shown to be effective for lower back pain (and NOTHING else) but is not more effective than other treatments. It is not better than other treatments. So it is probably the massage aspect or something within science that appears to make chiro work, not woo-woo outside of science.

flerc
01-22-2016, 12:48 PM
Chiros and facts are largely unacquainted with each other. The entire field was founded on a lie... subluxations. Chiro has only been shown to be effective for lower back pain (and NOTHING else) but is not more effective than other treatments. It is not better than other treatments. So it is probably the massage aspect or something within science that appears to make chiro work, not woo-woo outside of science.

What I was wanting to say is that if even the worst criminals around the world would be saying that climate is changing, it would be anyway a fact. Clear are repeating known facts discovered by well known researchers before. Facts are facts regardless who are quoting those facts.
About Clear, I thinks that surely many Chiropractors don't agree with them and about Chiropractics I know is an ancient practice, what may think some Chiropractors in this age, don't turns it less useful.

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 12:55 PM
Clear are repeating known facts discovered by well known researchers before.

They have no training to understand these issues and it shows.

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 12:59 PM
http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2008/12/11/overrated-career-chiropractor-2009

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 01:02 PM
Why it is scary when people take their kids to chiros...

http://edzardernst.com/2013/10/twenty-things-most-chiropractors-wont-tell-you/


3. Our education is vastly inferior to that of medical doctors.

I rarely encountered sick patients in my school clinic. Most of my “patients” were friends, students, and an occasional person who presented to the student clinic for inexpensive chiropractic care. Most had nothing really wrong with them. In order to graduate, chiropractic college students are required to treat a minimum number of people. To reach their number, some resort to paying people (including prostitutes) to visit them at the college’s clinic.2

Students also encounter a very narrow range of conditions, most related to aches and pains. Real medical education involves contact with thousands of patients with a wide variety of problems, including many severe enough to require hospitalization. Most chiropractic students see patients during two clinical years in chiropractic college. Medical students also average two clinical years, but they see many more patients and nearly all medical doctors have an additional three to five years of specialty training before they enter practice.

Chiropractic’s minimum educational standards are quite low. In 2007, chiropractic students were required to evaluate and manage only 15 patients in order to graduate. Chiropractic’s accreditation agency ordered this number to increase to 35 by the fall of 2011. However, only 10 of the 35 must be live patients (eight of whom are not students or their family members)! For the remaining cases, students are permitted to “assist, observe, or participate in live, paper-based, computer-based, distance learning, or other reasonable alternative.”3 In contrast, medical students see thousands of patients.

Former National Council Against Health Fraud President William T. Jarvis, Ph.D., has noted that chiropractic school prepares its students to practice “conversational medicine”—where they glibly use medical words but lack the knowledge or experience to deal appropriately with the vast majority of health problems.4 Dr. Stephen Barrett reported a fascinating example of this which occurred when he visited a chiropractor for research purposes. When Barrett mentioned that he was recovering from an attack of vertigo (dizziness), the chiropractor quickly rattled off a textbook-like list of all the possible causes. But instead of obtaining a proper history and conducting tests to pinpoint a diagnosis, he x-rayed Dr. Barrett’s neck and recommended a one-year course of manipulations to make his neck more curved. The medical diagnosis, which had been appropriately made elsewhere, was a viral infection that cleared up spontaneously in about ten days.5

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 01:07 PM
Cringe-worthy stats... http://www.chirobase.org/05RB/AHCPR/03.html


In an inventory of preadmission requirements comparing schools of medicine, dentistry, osteopathy, podiatry, chiropractic, and optometry (Doxey, 1997), chiropractic students scored the lowest of all professions evaluated on four outcome measures (minimum number of semester hours, completion of 4-year bachelor's degree, minimum GPA required on entrance, and average GPA of previous year's entering class). The study examined printed resources collected during 1995 from 17 medical schools, 16 chiropractic schools, 15 dental schools, 16 optometry schools, 16 osteopathic schools, and 7 podiatric schools. All of the included colleges were located in the United States and represented a broad geographic distribution. Table 4 compares the various professions in terms of entrance requirements. The authors were careful to note that although the data reflect differences among health care professions on a limited number of entrance criteria, they do not explain the causes of the differences nor do they offer any insight as to how these measures correlate with successful practice or patient care.

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 01:20 PM
about Chiropractics I know is an ancient practice,

No.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-a-brief-overview-part-i/


History

Chiropractic was founded in 1895 by Daniel David Palmer, a grocer with an intense interest in metaphysics. Prior to his “discovery” of chiropractic, D.D. Palmer was a magnetic healer. He also had interests in phrenology (diagnosing disease based on the bumps of the skull) and spiritualism. Palmer reported to have discovered the principle of chiropractic when he allegedly cured a janitor of his deafness by manipulating his neck. The fact that the nerve which conveys sound information from the ears to the brain does not pass through the neck did not seem to bother Palmer, if he was even aware of this fact.

Palmer created the term “chiropractic,” which literally means “done by hand,” to refer to his new therapy. He argued that all disease is caused by subluxated bones, which 95% of the time are spinal bones, and which disrupt the flow of innate intelligence. He did not subject his ideas to any form of research, but rather went directly to treating patients and to teaching his principles to the first generation of chiropractors.

flerc
01-22-2016, 01:58 PM
No.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-a-brief-overview-part-i/

They don't know about civilization from Tibet and South America. I think Chiropractic as Acupuncture may only be used in the right way by experts.
But anyway we talked about this in another thread, this is about Reduction in Brace! HAs nothing to do with Clear or Chiropractic. I posted that link because is the first time I see much of what I think since these years, although they are not saying everything.
It's something very much important I think. I think that every health professionals ( orthopedics, surgeons, chiropractors..) should to be banned if they allows a brace without enough reduction in brace.

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 02:11 PM
They don't know about civilization from Tibet and South America.

What is the evidence that Palmer "rediscovered" chiro from Tibet and South America? Why do you keep claiming that?

I seriously doubt they did spinal manipulations in response to "subluxations."

flerc
01-22-2016, 02:50 PM
This is not a Chiropractor thread, if you are not interested in reduction in brace, ok, you may continue here talking about Chiropractic

Come to South America and you may see it. Folks practicing Inca Chiropractic sure have never heard about Palmer..

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 03:04 PM
In Katz et al. (2010), bracing "success" was not correlated with in-brace correction amount.

In another paper by Katz et al., it was correlated.

The results are all over the place just from this one group.

flerc
01-22-2016, 03:16 PM
I'm sure I have read about Mayo Clinic with a very good correlation. It would be very hard to imagine success correlated with low reduction in brace. Regardless Physics, Maths and Biology facts, is something too much intuitive I think to see why reduction in brace is important and why without it braces should not be used.

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 03:22 PM
There could be thresholds of efficacy. It may be overkill to go for more correction (and more discomfort).

It may be largely dependent on the patient and not so much the amount of correction. It may be how much the brace kyphoses the spine instead of amount of correction in the coronal plane. Who knows.

You should accept that what is intuitive to a lay person may have no bearing on scientific reality. That's why there is so much folk science.

flerc
01-22-2016, 03:26 PM
I didn't said it would be only intuitive, of course there are logics reasons according to science. Yes, it could be more discomfort if reduction is forced in spine without flexibility. But why not get first flexibility and then look for a brace?

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 03:30 PM
I'm sure I have read about Mayo Clinic with a very good correlation.

What is your point? Does this matter to anything?

I am trying to get you to see that this doesn't move the needle one way or another.

Lay people read random things all the time. So what?

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 03:32 PM
But why not get first flexibility and then look for a brace?

Do you imagine the researchers need lay people to make suggestions for how to advance this research field?

Don't you think the researchers are MILES ahead of all the lay people combined?

Here a real issue for you... why hasn't Dingo updated the group this year about his son's results with torso rotation? I hope they are okay.

flerc
01-22-2016, 03:34 PM
What means lay people for you?

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 03:38 PM
What means lay people for you?

People not trained in this field. Unlettered people. You and me and Dingo and everyone here except Dr. McIntire.

flerc
01-22-2016, 03:44 PM
Ok, all here except Kevin are lay people. But you think that non surgical methods are not useful, braces should to be discontinued, although not lay people may be thinking different, so why I cannot say what I think about reduction in brace?

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 03:48 PM
My thoughts are based on the level of evidence which I can ascertain from reading high-quality sources. I have no independent conclusions because this is not my field.

Your comments are not based on anything except your feelings. No science involved.

You can say anything you want and Dingo can say anything he wants. But it's all folk science by definition.

flerc
01-22-2016, 03:53 PM
What I say is based over facts, is not my imagination. Is a logical conclusion and if there is something showing something wrong, as I know was never posted. Certainly there are researchers saying the same. And certainly surgeons, chiropractors, orthopedics are not researchers.

flerc
01-22-2016, 03:56 PM
So why it has not sense to say that something is done in the wrong way? I sure that using a brace without enough reduction in brace is something wrong and I say why.

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 04:14 PM
What I say is based over facts,

AS YOU UNDERSTAND them. That is not the same as an understanding you get from being in this field.

The hallmark of research is to be skeptical and to doubt until the evidence is overwhelming. Lay people DO NOT do that... they cherry pick individual articles that they really don't understand and make statements of "fact."

I see you and Dingo practicing research without a license. You have no training and so don't know to be skeptical enough. You don't know what you don't know and don't accept that there are unknown unknowns at all. Both you and Dingo could come up to speed but you haven't. I am very sure you have no idea what it takes to get to a point where Dr. McIntire is with his doctorate and post doc. You could be at the same point if you learned how to approach science but neither of you have done so. I know what I had to do to earn a doctorate and get through a post doc. I have not done anything close to that in the field of scoliosis. I use the general tools of science and research to poke around a bit but that is all it is... a lay jaunt through another field of science that is not my own.

My training in research has taught me to very extremely skeptical of everything. The answer to many things is there is not enough evidence to say one way or another. For something like bracing or PT, it is so complex that we may never get an answer about the long term effectiveness.

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 04:15 PM
So why it has not sense to say that something is done in the wrong way? I sure that using a brace without enough reduction in brace is something wrong and I say why.

You need to consider that there are unknown unknowns.

flerc
01-22-2016, 05:40 PM
AS YOU UNDERSTAND them. That is not the same as an understanding you get from being in this field.

The hallmark of research is to be skeptical and to doubt until the evidence is overwhelming. Lay people DO NOT do that... they cherry pick individual articles that they really don't understand and make statements of "fact."

I see you and Dingo practicing research without a license. You have no training and so don't know to be skeptical enough. You don't know what you don't know and don't accept that there are unknown unknowns at all. Both you and Dingo could come up to speed but you haven't. I am very sure you have no idea what it takes to get to a point where Dr. McIntire is with his doctorate and post doc. You could be at the same point if you learned how to approach science but neither of you have done so.
I may say exactly the same about you.



I know what I had to do to earn a doctorate and get through a post doc. I have not done anything close to that in the field of scoliosis. I use the general tools of science and research to poke around a bit but that is all it is... a lay jaunt through another field of science that is not my own.


Do you have a doctorate? In what? You don't know nothing about me, which is my science background and absolutely nothing about me except why I'm too much interested in scoliosis. I also don't know nothing about you. We have the same discussion many times ago and we both knows how it always finishes. So the last I will do because I don't want to receive again warnings, is to repeat again what I said several times before: If you try to disqualify people here saying you have a great science knowledge and understanding and not other members here going absolutely against your thoughts and claims about scoliosis, YOU MUST TO PROVE IT. YOU MUST TO PROVE YOU HAVE DOCTORATE AS THE MEMBER KEVIN_MC DID.



My training in research has taught me to very extremely skeptical of everything. The answer to many things is there is not enough evidence to say one way or another. For something like bracing or PT, it is so complex that we may never get an answer about the long term effectiveness.
You never shows to be skeptical about nothing except what is against you use to say. Certainly I'm only saying that braces don't should be used without reduction in, you said that it never should to be used.
But we are talking about reduction in brace, not about me or you, as we are not talking about Clear or Chiropractors. You know science is not something so simple as only quoting about evidence in order to know what really is or not. I think we may say that probably there is not enough evidence showing per se if reduction in brace is necessary or not so we may use our brains. I think is what the people who established the brace protocol did. Do you know how it is? It allows to put a brace without any reduction in brace? Why they did the protocol as it is. I may be enough sure I'm understanding the foundations in favor to a significant reduction in brace and how hard they are!. Do you understand the foundations to say it's not important? I don't knows them. I think you have enough intelligence to debate about about this. If evidence would be enough, debates would not exists, don't you think?

flerc
01-22-2016, 05:46 PM
You need to consider that there are unknown unknowns.

Is not what you do when you claim against the use of braces.

flerc
01-22-2016, 05:46 PM
Against non surgical options really

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 05:48 PM
I may say exactly the same about you.

You are making my point. How would you even know if I am approaching it wrong it not?

You and Dingo are not approaching this like a scientist would approach it. Nobody is born knowing this. Scientists are scientists because they get training. Lay people are lay people because they don't.

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 05:57 PM
Against non surgical options really

I am against unfounded claims. YOU interpret that as me being against non surgical options. I keep trying to get you to see this point. You confuse my pointing out a lack of evidence for me just being randomly against something for no reason. There is always a reason.

I have no dog in the fight. If I am against something it is because there is no good evidence for it. Your inability to recognize this because you are not focused on evidence as opposed to your feelings that you can understand complex issues without putting in the hard work to actually understand them. Dingo was a master at the 5-minute google search that he thought made him equal for experienced researchers. If it wasn't sad it would be funny.

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 06:02 PM
Is not what you do when you claim against the use of braces.

No. I am not against braces. I am against people making claims that they work if there isn't good evidence they work, at least in the long run.

The latest study considers bracing a "success" if the child has a 49* curve with up to 25 percent of growth remaining. Do you consider that a success?

Also they have never published the ending curves of the bracing "successes." Does anyone doubt that some/most of the children with curves in the 40s will go on to need fusion? I would like to see a 10 year follow up to the BRAIST study and see if they are still claiming victory for braces.

Ask yourself why you don't think of questions like this.

flerc
01-22-2016, 06:04 PM
You are making my point. How would you even know if I am approaching it wrong it not?

Sorry, it seems I'm not understanding your English. What I said is that you no doubt until the evidence is overwhelming, and with the same right you are saying this about me I may say that you also cherry pick individual articles that you really don't understand and make statements of "fact." Also that you are practicing research without a license. You have no training and so don't know to be skeptical enough. You don't know what you don't know and don't accept that there are unknown unknowns at all. You could come up to speed but you haven't. I am very sure you have no idea what it takes to get to a point where Dr. McIntire is with his doctorate and post doc. You could be at the same point if you learned how to approach science but you don't have done so.


You and Dingo are not approaching this like a scientist would approach it. Nobody is born knowing this. Scientists are scientists because they get training. Lay people are lay people because they don't.

Again.. I may say exactly the same about you. This is all you have?.. Before moderator come of course.

flerc
01-22-2016, 06:09 PM
I have never seen a scientist refusing a debate.

flerc
01-22-2016, 06:11 PM
I think there are enough reasons to think that braces don' should be used without reduction in brace. What do you think.. or do you not think nothing until the moment when evidence says us the true?

flerc
01-22-2016, 06:12 PM
Fortunately is not the way that Science works!

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 06:24 PM
Fold.


.

.

flerc
01-22-2016, 06:52 PM
Ok, just only something about this point:

No. I am not against braces. I am against people making claims that they work if there isn't good evidence they work, at least in the long run.

I'm not against people really, I'm against some decisions. Someone (I don't know who) seems to have decided that braces may be used without reduction in brace. They could have decided the opposite, that is to not use it until having enough flexibility in order to have enough reduction in brace. Is what some Drs do as I know. I think it really should to be analyzed and decided again, specially because all the very much strong arguments (based in facts) in favour of only bracing when reduction is significant. I cannot do anymore that post this here.

flerc
01-24-2016, 06:34 AM
They could have decided the opposite, that is to not use it until having enough flexibility in order to have enough reduction in brace. Is what some Drs does as I know.

I know a Spinecor Dr. who measures flexibility and if it is under 40% he refuses to do the treatment.
Certainly I think there are many cases of flexible spines and when the brace was collocated, there was no reduction in brace. This possibility should to be avoided. If flexibility is measured first and then there is no reduction in brace, something was done wrong.
This what are saying these researchers should to be enough (even is probably no the main reason) to understand why is to much important reduction in brace http://www.uvm.edu/~istokes/pdfs/nonfusion.pdf

flerc
01-24-2016, 01:26 PM
' These results suggest that if appropriate
loads can be applied to human vertebrae, scoliosis
with vertebral wedging can be corrected without a spinal
fusion in both adolescents and adults, but with greater
difficulty in older patients'

Adults not too older yet should to be doing something now!

flerc
01-25-2016, 11:26 AM
I interpret Wolff's law is saying about the tissues ability to be adapted to circumstances. It seems it was known by ancient cultures in Japan. Martial arts as Karate or Kempo use to hit the knuckles in order to turn them harder, since many thousands of years ago.
I understand that tissues "intelligence" leads them to survive, regardless what happens with body. Vertebras and discs in a curve try to turns more curve and then the curve increases. Is what I'm understanding about this law and then the importance (not only because this) about reduction in brace, but if I'm wrong I'll appreciate it really very much if someone here wants to let me know about something wrong in my interpretation!.
Thanks in advance, this issue is too much important for me!

sjmcphee
01-25-2016, 12:38 PM
They should leave patients out of braces for at least a few days, maybe even a week before X-rays.
From the point of a study, to take the data in the right context I'd want the stats after a one month follow up as well.
If they cant give these details, then were not getting all the information in the first place.

Pooka1
01-25-2016, 01:15 PM
They should leave patients out of braces for at least a few days, maybe even a week before X-rays.
From the point of a study, to take the data in the right context I'd want the stats after a one month follow up as well.
If they cant give these details, then were not getting all the information in the first place.

Good point about being out of brace longer.

These guys are chiros.

flerc
01-25-2016, 02:52 PM
They should leave patients out of braces for at least a few days, maybe even a week before X-rays.
From the point of a study, to take the data in the right context I'd want the stats after a one month follow up as well.
If they cant give these details, then were not getting all the information in the first place.

I interpret you are not talking about my interpretation about Wolff's law in favour of reduction in brace vs no reduction in brace.
Sure promoting some bracing treatment showing reduction in brace as permanent reductions would be something dishonest if the corresponding arguments are not shown.
If we would be talking about permanent and possitive reduction, I think there is only one case in which could have some sense to analyze if a rigid brace used with no reduction in brace may be better than using it with reduction in brace: In the spurt of growth. As the lenght of the spine is significative larger, the curve may be smallest when the brace is immediately removed, but sure it should to be more reduced if it would have reduction in brace. Thinking in Wollf's and VH laws, we should to think that the reduction in the second case should to be more permanent than in the first case, but probably there are other factors to be considered.

flerc
01-25-2016, 07:56 PM
I think there is only one case in which could have some sense to analyze if a rigid brace used with no reduction in brace may be better than using it with reduction in brace: In the spurt of growth. As the length of the spine is significative larger, the curve may be smallest when the brace is immediately removed, but sure it should to be more reduced if it would have reduction in brace. Thinking in Wollf's and VH laws, we should to think that the reduction in the second case should to be more permanent than in the first case, but probably there are other factors to be considered.

And sure more risks! I personally know a mother since years ago, she told me about the flexibility of the spine of her tall daughter who used brace in the spurt of growth and she saw because the x-rays that reduction in brace was not really significant as he expected and finally after few months she decided the remotion of the brace but unfortunately the curve, exceeded the surgical range and then she decided surgery for her daughter. She has not any doubt that brace did it.
Also in adults I don't see any advantage in bracing without reduction in brace. The only one exception may be Spinecor for adults. I think that probably ligaments don't are too much stretched, something I heard may be a reason for pain and probably muscles are activated anyway.. who knows..

flerc
01-26-2016, 12:38 PM
And sure more risks! I personally know a mother since years ago, she told me about the flexibility of the spine of her tall daughter who used brace in the spurt of growth and she saw because the x-rays that reduction in brace was not really significant as he expected and finally after few months she decided the remotion of the brace but unfortunately the curve, exceeded the surgical range and then she decided surgery for her daughter. She has not any doubt that brace did it.
Also in adults I don't see any advantage in bracing without reduction in brace. The only one exception may be Spinecor for adults. I think that probably ligaments don't are too much stretched, something I heard may be a reason for pain and probably muscles are activated anyway.. who knows..

Certainly Spinecor for adults may be the only one case where no reduction in brace may have not serious risks and also benefits. I know a woman in Facbook saying she is using it since some years without reduction in brace and she had pain relief but it didn't stop progression. I only know two real cases (also their x-rays) using Spinecor for adults with significant reduction in brace, in both cases not only pain relief was achieved but also progression was stopped. But as I know, there are a lot of Spinecor providers not giving much importance to reduction in brace.. I think that everything about scoliosis is very strange..

flerc
01-28-2016, 08:53 PM
But as I know, there are a lot of Spinecor providers not giving much importance to reduction in brace.
I believe that only Clear providers. Curiously Spinecor seems to be much expensive since Clear began to sell it!