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flerc
01-08-2016, 08:34 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26592215

Pooka1
01-08-2016, 10:41 PM
Here's the whole article.

https://www.facebook.com/TreatingScoliosis/photos/pcb.845024168866001/845023898866028/?type=1&theater

Many questions, the most obvious being how many people with TL curves did that EXACT treatment and didn't improve? Are these the only two? This might be like the Italian group wherein they report one case study that was successful out of who knows how many that weren't.

Also, I would want those angles measured by someone else. It appears one twin just learned to stand differently, perhaps just for the later radiograph.

I'd also be curious if they checked the girls were actually identical. Self reportage of zygosity of twins is notoriously inaccurate.

flerc
01-09-2016, 10:37 AM
Who knows.. is true it seems to be standing different, but I use to trust in Pubmed, I supposed they check everything before, or not? If not we must to doubt about thousands of articles.. It would be important if this case is true even if it would be the only one. It would imply that something done was good and should to be taken into account, in adults is difficult to believe in spontaneous corrections.
I think that the own inventions of Clear (like traction chair) by their own, may only work during growth spurt, something very much different is SEAS, that case surely is the most amazing but not the only one as a study showed.

Pooka1
01-09-2016, 11:11 AM
Who knows.. is true it seems to be standing different, but I use to trust in Pubmed, I supposed they check everything before, or not?

Pubmed checks nothing. They only list articles.


If not we must to doubt about thousands of articles..

Yes doubt them. Most published articles in the medical literature and other literatures are probably false.


It would be important if this case is true even if it would be the only one. It would imply that something done was good and should to be taken into account, in adults is difficult to believe in spontaneous corrections.

It would imply any improvement was not likely related to the treatment. Recall we are talking chiro here. Chiro is not a science and is based on an imaginary concept.

They are claiming both these girls did treatment at home three times a day for TWO YEARS. I am skeptical they did all that treatment at home.


I think that the own inventions of Clear (like traction chair) by their own, may only work during growth spurt, something very much different is SEAS, that case surely is the most amazing but not the only one as a study showed.

It remains to be seen if any PT treatment will last a lifetime.

burdle
01-11-2016, 07:07 AM
This outfit is Scolismart!!

They continually spout things like this.

What evidence do we have that their curves were progressing etc. They could both have non- progressive curves and the result is a combination of different measuring for the 'after' and standing differently for the 'after'

What they don't have is any evidence that their treatments work in the long-term- they are only interested in publishing comfort stats to lure people into their costly treatment program.

Pooka1
01-11-2016, 07:25 AM
This outfit is Scolismart!!

They continually spout things like this.

What evidence do we have that their curves were progressing etc. They could both have non- progressive curves and the result is a combination of different measuring for the 'after' and standing differently for the 'after'

What they don't have is any evidence that their treatments work in the long-term- they are only interested in publishing comfort stats to lure people into their costly treatment program.

Excellent points, Burdle. Not all curves in that range progress. My one daughter got to that range and higher and had 6 month periods of no progression.

I seriously doubt they did the treatment as much as advertised so I don't believe any result was due to the chiro. They don't report any attempt to find out the compliance rate of the girls and it appears they just believed them if they said they did it every day, three times a day, for two years. LOL.

The other thing is they say they didn't do the chiro for two years but the girls may have been doing other PT treatments. The one girl appears to be just standing differently. I think they may have told her to stand as straight as possible in the after photo.

The credibility of these chiros is near zero so I tend to question everything. Chiro is not a science.

burdle
01-11-2016, 08:02 AM
If anyone has any time please take a look at Scoliosis Warriors on Facebook. The is the mouthpiece for Scolismart and they continually post stuff like this.

Facebook is rapidly replacing the old forums for Scoliosis support- certainly SSO in UK is much quieter now than a few years ago.

You get banned if you challenge too much- I have several times ( different guises) but honestly I feel we should do our best to try to stop their misleading claims.

So many parents and young people are being lured to do their costly treatment and they are encouraged by claims such as this one.

The trouble is we never hear from any one for whom the program has failed and we only hear the short term results anyway.

Pooka1
01-11-2016, 08:10 AM
I agree so much money is wasted on lay treatments like chiro. It is adding financial insult to physical injury. Reprehensible.

The fact that they ban people for correct criticism says it all. That is not the mark of an intellectually honest group. This is not science and it shows.

flerc
01-11-2016, 10:37 PM
Pubmed checks nothing. They only list articles.
Yes doubt them. Most published articles in the medical literature and other literatures are probably false.

Then, regardless in what we believe, we are all in trouble.

It would imply any improvement was not likely related to the treatment. Recall we are talking chiro here. Chiro is not a science and is based on an imaginary concept.
Chiropractic like Yoga or Qigong is a ancient practice from thousands of years ago, to not coming from science not necessary imply to be useless. Anyway Clear inventions seems to not have much to do with traditional Chiropractic. The traction chair I remember is based over the concept of a wrong posture image, vanished with the vibration.. yes, is difficult to believe it can reduce an adult curve.


They are claiming both these girls did treatment at home three times a day for TWO YEARS. I am skeptical they did all that treatment at home.

They sells the chair.. Clear inventions have sense, but yes, not enough and it should to be known other cases. I have read about Face groups with a lot of people with name and photos, personal history, friends.. saying about good outcomes and showing x-rays.. who knows.


It remains to be seen if any PT treatment will last a lifetime.
It would not be logic to wait without doing nothing up to see that.

Pooka1
01-11-2016, 10:51 PM
Chiropractic like Yoga or Qigong is a ancient practice from thousands of years ago,

"Chiropractic was founded in 1895 by Daniel David (D.D.) Palmer in Davenport, Iowa. Palmer, a magnetic healer, hypothesized that manual manipulation of the spine could cure disease.[201]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic

He was a nut obviously.

flerc
01-11-2016, 11:20 PM
It existed it first in Tibet and some Indian tribes as the Incas.

Pooka1
01-11-2016, 11:21 PM
It existed it first in Tibet and some Indian tribes as the Incas.

How can that possibly be?

What is the evidence that Palmer didn't invent it in 1895?

Are you saying it was invented SIMULTANEOUSLY in South America AND Asia and Palmer just copied it?

flerc
01-11-2016, 11:25 PM
He could reinvented the same or something similar. Why not?

burdle
01-12-2016, 04:55 AM
The CLEAR institute is based on chiropractic- it is a few chiros who have decided to specialise in Scoliosis - probably because with an aging world population they saw a gap in the market from which to make money.

Scolismart is an offshoot from CLEAR - it appears that they fell out with CLEAR over the traction chair - yet they seemingly they still support their other methods.

They are all chiros- but chiropractic itself has changed over the years from those who believe all disease originates from spinal misalignment and those who just specialise in pain relief etc. CLEAR and SColismart belong to the latter - except now they are moving in Scolisos territory claiming that they can prevent progression and reduce curves.

@ Flerc- it is the Facebook sites that worry me the most. As soon as you get misinformed people with scoliosis posting about their marvellous results we have problems. I believe the people are genuine - just that they are not really knowledgeable about their own condition ( again a gap in the market). Scolismart get hold of them- set up a fancy exercise program and give them an Activity Suit ( piece of nonsense no better than a corset) and tell them how much their curve is reduced. We do not even know if the prople were in pain- they were just frightened witless about having a curve in the first place and are now being told it is reducing but only if they keep up the exercise program.

Scolismart and CLEAR cannot lose- if the curve fails to progress (as it might well have have anyway) they claim success. If the curve does progress they claim that the exercises were not done properly. Job Done...

I mind most that they are now moving into adult territory- again because of the wide scope of scoliosis - taking adults with degenerative curves and claiming success. They simply don't understand any difference between degenerative adult scoliosis and Adult IDIOPATHIC scoliosis.

But the worst thing about them is that they are cosying up to some scoliosis surgeons who do VBT.

I think VBT is great - anything that helps without having to have full fusion has got to be BUT Scolismart pretend that for the cases that do not work that they are keeping the spine flexible to enable them to be candidates for VBT. This is palpable nonsense- if VBT needs a flexible spine then it will depend on age and ordinary exercise - not on Scolismart. But again it is a win for the chiros- they get the money.

I truly believe that we need a better way for the treatment of Scoliosis- I just wish it was coming from within the medical profession - led by physiotherapists maybe and not from chriropractic.

Pooka1
01-12-2016, 07:03 AM
He could reinvented the same or something similar. Why not?

Yes he could have but there isn't the thinnest shred of evidence he did. Where did you get the idea that chiro was invented in Tibet and the Inca Empire????

flerc
01-12-2016, 07:08 AM
Yes he could have but there isn't the thinnest shred of evidence he did. Where did you get the idea that chiro was invented in Tibet and the Inca Empire????

I know it because there is a method in my country derived from Tibetan Chiropractic. In others Inca Chiropractic is still used.

Pooka1
01-12-2016, 07:09 AM
Excellent post, Burdle. These chiros exploit the scientific ignorance of the public in shameless ways.


The CLEAR institute is based on chiropractic- it is a few chiros who have decided to specialise in Scoliosis - probably because with an aging world population they saw a gap in the market from which to make money.

Scolismart is an offshoot from CLEAR - it appears that they fell out with CLEAR over the traction chair - yet they seemingly they still support their other methods.

They are all chiros- but chiropractic itself has changed over the years from those who believe all disease originates from spinal misalignment and those who just specialise in pain relief etc. CLEAR and SColismart belong to the latter - except now they are moving in Scolisos territory claiming that they can prevent progression and reduce curves.

@ Flerc- it is the Facebook sites that worry me the most. As soon as you get misinformed people with scoliosis posting about their marvellous results we have problems. I believe the people are genuine - just that they are no really knowledgeable about their own condition ( again a gap in the market). Scolismart get hold of them- set up a fancy exercise program and give them an Activity Suit ( piece of nonsense no better than a corset) and tell them how much their curve is reduced. We do not even know if the prople were in pain- they were just frightened witless about having a curve in the first place and are now being told it is reducing but only if they keep up the exercise program.

Scolismart and CLEAR cannot lose- if the curve fails to progress (as it might well have have anyway) they claim success. If the curve does progress they claim that the ercercises were done done properly. Job Done...

I mind most that they are now moving into adult territory- again because of the wide scope of scoliosis - taking adults with degenerative curves and claiming success. They simply don't understand any difference between degenerative adult scoliosis and Adult IDIOPATHIC scoliosis.

But the worst thing about them is that they are cosying up to some scoliosis surgeons who do VBT.

I think VBT is great - anything that helps without having to have full fusion has got to be BUT Scolismart pretend that for the cases that do not work that they are keeping the spine flexible to enable them to be candidates for VBT. This is palpable nonsense- if VBT needs a flexible spine then it will depend on age and ordinary exercise - not on Scolismart. But again it is a win for the chiros- they get the money.

I truly believe that we need a better way for the treatment of Scoliosis- I just wish it was coming from within the medical profession - led by physiotherapists maybe and not from chriropractic.

Pooka1
01-12-2016, 07:20 AM
I know it because there is a method in my country derived from Tibetan Chiropractic. In others Inca Chiropractic is still used.

They may call it chiro but it isn't. The concepts Palmer used were not known in Tibet or the Incan Empire as far as I know.

I think you insult these cultures by claiming they did chiro.

flerc
01-12-2016, 07:32 AM
I'm referring to the procedure, vertebral manipulation as I know. Tibetan is much soft, as I have heard and saw, Inca Chiropractic seems to be more similar. Surely they had not those concepts.. I don't know how ancient cultures developed what they developed. It seems you hate Chiropractic, it's because Clear? Petitbon and Traction chair really has nothing to do with what Palmer invented or reinvented.

Pooka1
01-12-2016, 07:46 AM
It seems you hate Chiropractic,

I dislike alternative medicine pretending to be medicine.

Q: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
A: Medicine.

And I hate people taking advantage of people when they are desperate.

flerc
01-12-2016, 07:58 AM
I dislike alternative medicine pretending to be medicine.

Q: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
A: Medicine.


But before being called Medicine it was called Alternative Medicine, so it has no sense.





And I hate people taking advantage of people when they are desperate.

Me too, but also people trying to vanish everything not recognized for the medical protocol.

burdle
01-12-2016, 08:59 AM
It's the methods that chiro use that I hate.

The medical profession expects evidence - the fault with chiropractic is that they 'adopt' all the terminology that the medical profession use like peer- 'reviewed' and 'research' but manipulate it for their own purpose.

Vulnerable people are taken advantage of - for example Scolismart will say something is 'peer-reviewed' or will state 'studies show' when what they mean is one of their colleagues reviewed and their own studies, based on flawed data has come to the conclusion that they intended it to in the first place!

Often the public don't know there is a difference.


I would have more- respect for CLEAR and Scolismart if they did not shamefully hang on the coattails of a profession that they claim to know more than.


Try Googling www.treatscoliosis.com and see their 'research'

flerc
01-12-2016, 09:06 AM
@ Flerc- it is the Facebook sites that worry me the most. As soon as you get misinformed people with scoliosis posting about their marvellous results we have problems. I believe the people are genuine - just that they are not really knowledgeable about their own condition ( again a gap in the market). Scolismart get hold of them- set up a fancy exercise program and give them an Activity Suit ( piece of nonsense no better than a corset) and tell them how much their curve is reduced. We do not even know if the prople were in pain- they were just frightened witless about having a curve in the first place and are now being told it is reducing but only if they keep up the exercise program.


Burdle, is these people showing the before-after x-rays?

burdle
01-12-2016, 09:25 AM
Hi,

generally no - they just quote cobb angles. There is one case of a young girl where the xrays are shown but to really be valid you need to show the cobb angle drawn on each xray.

Take a look..

flerc
01-12-2016, 09:55 AM
Then is difficult to believe of course. Some years ago I asked CLEAR for a real case and a mother of Panama send me an email, she didn't send x-rays pics, anyway her daughter was in a very different stage that I was looking for, so I was not too much interested. I always say the same 'if it's really good what you do, please put me in contact with a real successful case'.

flerc
01-12-2016, 10:41 AM
It's the methods that chiro use that I hate.

The medical profession expects evidence - the fault with chiropractic is that they 'adopt' all the terminology that the medical profession use like peer- 'reviewed' and 'research' but manipulate it for their own purpose.

Vulnerable people are taken advantage of - for example Scolismart will say something is 'peer-reviewed' or will state 'studies show' when what they mean is one of their colleagues reviewed and their own studies, based on flawed data has come to the conclusion that they intended it to in the first place!

Often the public don't know there is a difference.


I would have more- respect for CLEAR and Scolismart if they did not shamefully hang on the coattails of a profession that they claim to know more than.


Try Googling www.treatscoliosis.com and see their 'research'

I think that CLEAR is something very much special, I would not judge Chiropractic for what they does. Certainly their own inventions don't convince me too much. If they are showing false cases as real cases, people must to know it!.

burdle
01-12-2016, 11:31 AM
Agreed but how?

burdle
01-12-2016, 11:33 AM
I think that CLEAR is something very much special, I would not judge Chiropractic for what they does. Certainly their own inventions don't convince me too much. If they are showing false cases as real cases, people must to know it!.


The chiropractic community must take responsibility for CLEAR and Scolismart- They are still Chiropractors.

flerc
01-12-2016, 12:46 PM
Agreed but how?

I think that if someone in a Face group says about an improvement, we should to requires x-rays . Is different to forums where people are anonymus, they are sharing all their life with the rest of the world, is difficult they really may have any problem in showing it. If they refused then we should to say that we thinks is a fraud. And if proffessionals are who says that, we must to insists in knowing that cases. If they have thousands of cases, is not possible they cannot convince just only one to share their case in the group. It' s only an idea but at least people of the group sure should to realize that effectively it could be a fraud.

flerc
01-12-2016, 01:13 PM
The chiropractic community must take responsibility for CLEAR and Scolismart- They are still Chiropractors.

I agree, they should to investigate how much true are behind Clear inventions. They incorporate other good scoliosis treatments as Spinecor and Schroth, that nothing have to do with Chiropractic, but their own inventions as traction chair and petibon system, are showed as a Chiropractor invention.. and of course if they are showing false cases as real, they should not allow them to do it any more.

burdle
01-13-2016, 04:47 AM
Hi Flerc,

can you join the Facebook Group Scoliosis Warriors. Then make your questions and see what you think.

I am waiting for my account to be deleted and then I will join again under a different name.

I keep getting removed as soon as I ask anyone for any proof.

I live in UK so it is difficult for me as we don't have Scolismart or CLEAR in UK. However I have made a complaint to the FMA

burdle
01-13-2016, 06:22 AM
Take a look at this link

fb.me/2wZajFoby


What research and what is in this 'formula'?

And look at the likes and the sort of comments - no-one challenging etc. And no reply to the content of the formula - give me strength!!!!!

Pooka1
01-13-2016, 07:32 AM
Hi Flerc,

can you join the Facebook Group Scoliosis Warriors. Then make your questions and see what you think.

I am waiting for my account to be deleted and then I will join again under a different name.

I keep getting removed as soon as I ask anyone for any proof.

I live in UK so it is difficult for me as we don't have Scolismart or CLEAR in UK. However I have made a complaint to the FMA

It is sickening how they are experimenting on people without telling them. They know they don't have a solution which is fine. But you don't take piles of money from people who think you do. So despicable. How many of those people would fork over piles of money if they knew there was not a shred of evidence that this stuff worked? They are so dishonest in not telling people they are experimenting and getting innocent ignorant people to finance nonsense.

Pooka1
01-13-2016, 08:37 AM
Take a look at this link

fb.me/2wZajFoby


What research and what is in this 'formula'?

And look at the likes and the sort of comments - no-one challenging etc. And no reply to the content of the formula - give me strength!!!!!

Interesting that they are a closed group. Cowards.

burdle
01-13-2016, 11:02 AM
Interesting that they are a closed group. Cowards.

Could we ask Linda R to ask around for us about them?

green m&m
01-13-2016, 11:36 AM
I just looked through some of the treating scoliosis' facebook posts...

Had a sneaking suspicion based on how the girls next to side-by-side xrays of pre and post treatment xrays looked like stock photos of girls and did a quick google image search.

So the girl in this post https://www.facebook.com/TreatingScoliosis/photos/pb.123777240990701.-2207520000.1452702458./961355780566172/?type=3&theater

also showed up at this page http://www.randysmithmd.com/patient-education/

I was unable to find the stock photo agency that has that photo, but looks like the picture of that young lady is a stock photo. I doubt the Ob/Gyn website stole the image from the facebook post, especially since it's been around 2011.

Also, xray marking styles are different (L/R markers) in all their posts. I suppose it could be from different clinics, or they stole xrays too that are really pre/post bracing xrays from other patient education sites.

.... AND if those are their own xryas, why aren't the girls shielded? Sigh.

I get sharing the before/after xrays... Only reason I can think of on their reasoning of attaching the xrays to a face (that isn't of the real patient) is to illicit an emotional response of the viewer connecting on a personal level. But it's such a marketing move... if they are just truly sharing their so-called-treatment results, there's no reason for attaching stock photo to xrays.

The girl in following post is also stock.

https://www.facebook.com/TreatingScoliosis/photos/pcb.961355797232837/961355513899532/?type=3&theater

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/photo/confident-young-girl-royalty-free-image/184643301


At the very least they should age-match the xrays to the age of the person in the stock photo...

flerc
01-13-2016, 12:34 PM
Hi Flerc,

can you join the Facebook Group Scoliosis Warriors. Then make your questions and see what you think.

I am waiting for my account to be deleted and then I will join again under a different name.

I keep getting removed as soon as I ask anyone for any proof.

I live in UK so it is difficult for me as we don't have Scolismart or CLEAR in UK. However I have made a complaint to the FMA

To use the power on a group in that way is unacceptable, certainly Chiropractic Association should to knows what they are doing.

burdle
01-13-2016, 12:44 PM
we can do something about it- if lots of people join and ask for proof etc. then at least existing members will read posts from us that might encourage more challenge from them.

flerc
01-13-2016, 02:01 PM
Yes, of course, but they doesn't delete the posts? If they delete every post asking for x-rays it would not be effective.

flerc
01-13-2016, 02:02 PM
I was banned from a surgeon's group and they deleted also my posts.

burdle
01-14-2016, 04:40 AM
yes but if a lot of us joined and posted like this - it would be difficult for them to keep on top of deleting them all.

And while this was going on people would see that there is another side to things and ask questions themselves.

At the moment because it is a close group new members get a feeling that everything Scolismart says is true.

Don't we have a sort of responsibility to fight back...

flerc
01-14-2016, 05:48 AM
Yes, at least they would have a big complication. And certainly I'm not so sure that Chiropractic association would want to do something http://www.naturalnews.com/037059_chiropractic_physicians_sellout_Big_Pharma. html#

flerc
01-22-2016, 02:46 PM
I'm referring to the procedure, vertebral manipulation as I know. Tibetan is much soft, as I have heard and saw, Inca Chiropractic seems to be more similar. Surely they had not those concepts.. I don't know how ancient cultures developed what they developed. It seems you hate Chiropractic, it's because Clear? Petitbon and Traction chair really has nothing to do with what Palmer invented or reinvented.


What is the evidence that Palmer "rediscovered" chiro from Tibet and South America? Why do you keep claiming that?

I seriously doubt they did spinal manipulations in response to "subluxations."

Come to South America and you may see it. Folks practicing Inca Chiropractic sure have never heard about Palmer..

Pooka1
01-22-2016, 03:02 PM
Come to South America and you may see it. Folks practicing Inca Chiropractic sure have never heard about Palmer..

All chiro is pseudoscience but not all pseudoscience is chiro. Just because it looks like chiro to you doesn't mean they are doing the same thing for the same "reasons" as Palmer.

That is the mistake you are making in my opinion.

flerc
01-24-2016, 05:26 PM
They does vertebral manipulations, really very hard and quick in back and neck. For someone don't knowing what they tries to do or what kind of changes are doing, it seems really to be the same, at least very much similar.
I think the same happened with massages. Do you know who was the inventor?

Pooka1
01-24-2016, 05:32 PM
Ancient people didn't know anything and it shows. If you are saying Palmer didn't know anything then I will agree. But that doesn't mean he was copying what they were doing.

flerc
01-24-2016, 05:56 PM
Ancient people didn't know anything and it shows.
Sure, ancient people were like animals, in fact mankind began few centuries ago. Something as Yoga, Tai Chi, Kempo or Qigong is pure junk.


If you are saying Palmer didn't know anything then I will agree. But that doesn't mean he was copying what they were doing.
As I said before, I never said he copied nothing, surely he reinvented the same or similar.

Pooka1
01-24-2016, 06:15 PM
Sure, ancient people were like animals, in fact mankind began few centuries ago. Something as Yoga, Tai Chi, Kempo or Qigong is pure junk.

Yoga and tai chi are not medicine.

I don't know what kempo or qigong are but they sound like they belong in the Periodic Table of Irrational Nonsense.

http://crispian-jago.blogspot.com/2010/07/periodic-table-of-irrational-nonsense.html

flerc
01-24-2016, 07:47 PM
Sure, in fact all the inventions and discoveries of ancient people except those belonging to Europe (mainly Nordic Anglo races) are pure junk. Certainly is a race matter, as you know Chinese is a stupid folk, so they still are using non sense inventions as Quigong or Tai Chi as medicine invented for their ancestors, who didn't belong of course to mankind.
You should to be happy with the news! What a best way to be sure that Chiropactics is an useless junk, that knowing it was an invention of those ignorant ancient eastern folks!

flerc
01-24-2016, 07:54 PM
You should to be happy with the news! What a best way to be sure that Chiropactics is an useless junk, that knowing it was an invention of those ignorant ancient eastern folks!

I was thinking in that from Tibet (very much soft), but of course American Indian peoples was also something like animals.. specially those belonging to the South.

Pooka1
01-24-2016, 10:32 PM
If you think my comments were racist, that says more about you than it does about me.

It's one thing for you to not have any science training and to spout nonsense. You go beyond that into being dishonest and disgusting.

You need to step away from this group. You are irrational and not contributing anything of value or anything even rational.

flerc
01-24-2016, 10:41 PM
You said that ancient people didn't know anything or I have understand you wrong? Of course you couldn't refers to Europe ancient folks! I suppose you have enough history knowledge to know about greek culture where the mother of science began, don't you? You said chinese medicine is a non sense.. I just only did comments about what you said.

Pooka1
01-24-2016, 10:44 PM
GO AWAY. The last thing this group needs is a racist like you.

GO AWAY.

Pooka1
01-24-2016, 10:45 PM
I have reported your posts.

Get the hell out of here.

flerc
01-24-2016, 10:52 PM
And if you are so sure about my lack of science training leading me to spout nonsense, the best you may do to show it is to debate with me.
Quote you some nonsense I said. Do you think that what I said in our last discussion about reduction in brace is a nonsense? Prove it. I did other comments there. If I said nonsenses here I wait for someone let me know it. It would be good for me to know I'm wrong.
I wait for your comments.

Pooka1
01-24-2016, 10:55 PM
and if you are so sure about my lack of science training leading me to spout nonsense, the best you may do to show it is to debate with me.
Quote you some nonsense i said. Do you think that what i said in our last discussion about reduction in brace is a nonsense? Prove it. I did other comments there. If a said nonsense here i wait for someone let me know it. It would be for me to know i'm wrong.
I wait for your comments.

go away



..




.

flerc
01-24-2016, 10:56 PM
GO AWAY. The last thing this group needs is a racist like you.

GO AWAY.

Of course nobody reading this thread may believe that I could be the racist here! Of course I defend too much ancient eastern and Indian cultures!
For me their inventions are not a non sense as you said!

flerc
01-24-2016, 10:59 PM
QuiGong is part of the chinese medicine. I personally know the greatest Master and some of the famous cures that he did. You said is a non sense, not me.

flerc
01-24-2016, 11:10 PM
I'm in contact with Eastern and Indian cultures. You have not idea how many people I know, what I know, how much grateful I must to be with some of those ancient practices. You should to feel respect for what you don't know!

flerc
01-24-2016, 11:58 PM
QuiGong is part of the chinese medicine. I personally know the greatest Master and some of the famous cures that he did. You said is a non sense, not me.

It's a very well known fact at least in my country. Ok, of course you may believe that Pope Francis lies. http://acupunturaymedicinaensantiagodelestero.com/2015/06/01/el-papa-francisco/

burdle
01-25-2016, 07:29 AM
I don't think either of you were being racist here- I think it is difficult to portray sarcasm and irony in a post.

Pooka1
01-25-2016, 07:40 AM
I don't think either of you were being racist here- I think it is difficult to portray sarcasm and irony in a post.

Hi Burdle.

I am criticizing ideas, not ethnicities.

Flerc can't see this because he reducing everything to ethnicities. We don't need people thinking in terms of ethnicities in this world. We need people willing to criticize bad ideas from anyone and everyone. And we certainly don't need people protecting bad ideas by falsely accusing others of being racists.

He needs to go. I hope he is banned. He contributes nothing of value.

Pooka1
01-25-2016, 07:47 AM
An an example, I routinely criticize bullfighting as being barbarism. Flerc would say I was criticizing Spaniards. He is either being dishonest or ignorant. There is no third choice.

I consider only ideas. He considers only ethnicities.

flerc
01-25-2016, 09:44 AM
Burdle, it would be good to see her quoting just only one evidence about all what she don't stop to says about me since many years ago. She never said nothing true.. even in her last post. Nobody may hate bullfighting more than me and I have friends in Spain, my sister living there since decades ago, also I have Spain blood running in my veins.. and I wish too see the entire world criticizing bullfighting. But if you never stop to saying that everything not emerging from science is a not sense, you are offending cultures, millions of people around the world.

flerc
01-25-2016, 09:56 AM
If someone wants to criticize anything wrong about any culture or country even mine, I'll aplaude it, but must to shows that effectively is something wrong or bad. To don't emerge from science don't proves absolutely NOTHING!

rohrer01
01-25-2016, 01:34 PM
You said that ancient people didn't know anything or I have understand you wrong? Of course you couldn't refers to Europe ancient folks! I suppose you have enough history knowledge to know about greek culture where the mother of science began, don't you? You said chinese medicine is a non sense.. I just only did comments about what you said.

You guys are still at it? For one thing, many of the so-called non-scientific methods of treatment DO eventually get scientific explanations as to how they work. I was skeptical about acupuncture and got the whole Chi and Meridian lecture. I let it roll in one ear and out of the other. I knew IF it worked there would be a real explanation. It DID work in my case (severe lower back muscle spasms) after two treatments. I haven't had to go back. But those needles had electrical current running through them. They were hooked up to a TENS unit. I looked it up in scientific journals and got different explanations than Chi and Meridians. Meridians don't exist. There is no connection to be found in the body or nervous system that run in those pathways.

Now Flerc, how do you know that Sharon is of European descent? Did she ever state that? The only reason people may "assume" I'm white is because I have stated that I have lineage back to Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Church, who was white. I am in fact quite a bit Cherokee, Southern Native American!(and a bunch of other things - so no one on here really knows what color I am) While I don't believe in "medicine men", many of their remedies have been found to have scientific benefits, like Willow bark, aka aspirin. I think the point is to take what is reproducibly beneficial and find out what it does using the scientific method. Every race and culture contributes something. We are all people. Don't make assumptions about people's heredity unless they have told you what it is. You can't base science on heritage.

Flerc, I'm re-reading your posts and getting something different out of it every time. The Greeks had some of the most ridiculous "scientific" beliefs, ever! Remember the four humors? That started there, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, a lot of advancement was made there, but advancements were made in many places. It doesn't matter where an anthropologist goes, they find incredulous belief systems. I think Sharon is trying to convey the thought of taking the good and provable out of the non-sense and is getting frustrated with arguing with you. I'll keep my nose out since I didn't even read the beginning of the thread, which I'm sure has nothing to do with this particular conversation anyway. Things tend to digress. There are a few of us that try to explain both sides but we get slapped down for trying. Take what I said for what it's worth.

titaniumed
01-25-2016, 02:46 PM
Some pertinent reading material....

Spinal manipulation goes way way back.....per this article, thousands of years.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_manipulation

Chiropractic.....1895 Palmer...

Includes the attempts of the elimination of Chiropractic, and the resulting lawsuit....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_chiropractic

Trick or treatment....Ed Ernst.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edzard_Ernst


My plea is simply for honesty. Let people buy what they want, but tell them the truth about what they are buying. These treatments are biologically implausible and the clinical tests have shown they don't do anything at all in human beings. The argument that this information is not relevant or important for customers is quite simply ridiculous.[1


For us, there is no such thing as alternative medicine. There is either medicine that is effective or not, medicine that is safe or not. So-called alternative therapies need to be assessed and then classified as good medicines or bogus medicines. Hopefully, in the future, the good medicines will be embraced within conventional medicine and the bogus medicines will be abandoned.

After more than 200 years, we are still waiting for homeopathy "heretics" to be proved right, during which time the advances in our understanding of disease, progress in therapeutics and surgery, and prolongation of the length and quality of life by so-called allopaths have been breathtaking. The true skeptic therefore takes pride in closed mindedness when presented with absurd assertions that contravene the laws of thermodynamics or deny progress in all branches of physics, chemistry, physiology, and medicine.[21]


I’ve done Chiropractic and I’ve taken blacklisted medications.....both sides of the coin

Ed Ernst says, tell them the truth.....that’s all we want.

Ed

Pooka1
01-25-2016, 04:26 PM
After more than 200 years, we are still waiting for homeopathy "heretics" to be proved right, during which time the advances in our understanding of disease, progress in therapeutics and surgery, and prolongation of the length and quality of life by so-called allopaths have been breathtaking. The true skeptic therefore takes pride in closed mindedness when presented with absurd assertions that contravene the laws of thermodynamics or deny progress in all branches of physics, chemistry, physiology, and medicine.[21]

Ti Ed is wise.

Be like Ti Ed.

flerc
01-25-2016, 07:18 PM
Everyone may think what they wants, but if I'm talking about Tibet and South America Indian folks inventing something considered pure junk here and I read 'Ancient people didn't know anything and it shows.' and then those comments specially about Qigong and coincidently the person saying this is someone who only believes in what emerges from science as is showing since many years ago in thousands of posts disqualifying in the worse way everything and everyone, I think I cannot be wrong understanding that this person believes that only European folks related with greek folks was the only ones developing something useful, certainly the only one useful of mankind, that is, science. Impossible to believe this person never heard about Hipocrates or Pitagoras..
And of course, what could think this person about people still using those unusful inventions of those folks? Chinese Medicine is used in China of course and surely more than in ever other country. Yes, I was ironic saying she believes Chinese is not a clever people, of course nobdy may think that but certainly I have never known about nobody else using irony and all the disqualifying resource as she ever uses in discussion with people defending alternative methods.
Everyone with a minimally understanding of science and logics cannot ignore that a counterexample is enough to prove that something is wrong. I only may mention the Pope Francis because he is famous, but again, everyone may thinks what they wants, but of course I have blood in my veins and I cannot accept such kind of unfair disqualyifing claims.
I cannot contine with this kind of discussion because two reasons: The first is that I'm here because I have a serious problem and this doesn't bring absolutely nothing useful in order to solve this problem. The second and even more important is that is happening what ever happens when I discuss with her and I know how this may finish if I don't stop and although this is now mainly a surgical forum, being to much hard to find something about non surgical options, is the biggest scoliosis forum around the world and something useful I ever find here, even she responded the question I did in this thread, something useful for me. I also met good people searching the same that me. So even knowing that she will never stop, anyway I don't want to be banned, I must to accept all of this, I'm the last surveyvoir here and I'm not talking about racism, in fact I never did it, but racism is not the only one reason leading people to attacks others, in this case the reason is to believe in non surgical treatments as I do.

rohrer01
01-26-2016, 05:31 PM
For us, there is no such thing as alternative medicine. There is either medicine that is effective or not, medicine that is safe or not. So-called alternative therapies need to be assessed and then classified as good medicines or bogus medicines. Hopefully, in the future, the good medicines will be embraced within conventional medicine and the bogus medicines will be abandoned.

Ed

Exactly what I was trying to convey, but more concise. Take the things that seem to be working from whatever culture or ritual they may come from. Test them with the scientific method to see that they really do work. Then find out how and/or why they work. Quit calling it by its original name and quit trying to sell it as an ancient ritualistic healing. It's okay to say this treatment or that dates back thousands of years, but the people didn't understand why it worked. Not preaching religion here, but look at the Levitical laws of hygiene and laws against bestiality and incest. Those people had no knowledge of bacterial or viral infections or hereditary diseases. But it worked and now we know why. It took thousands of years to gain this understanding. The same goes with forms of healing. The Chinese have been practicing acupuncture for thousands of years and it works in certain circumstances, but not on everything. There is actual literature on WHY it works, even without the TENS or ENS stimulation. No meridian hypothesis. Some forms of Yoga work to help pain. Get rid of the religious aspect of it, quit the chanting, do the exercises that have been proven to work, quit calling it Yoga (bad connotation for some people) and call the exercises PT which is really what they are. I could go on and on. No offense to you Flerc because you are looking for the things that work. There's nothing wrong with that. It's the belief by some that people buy into the nonsense that goes with the treatments. That's where the scientific method comes in and the quackery goes out. Still not concise!

DONE

burdle
02-10-2016, 09:19 AM
I had a post in another thread that has since been closed- my post was not really part of the raging argument- but just made a comment about support. For the record I am the FIRST person who wants to lay into these people who are making a fortune out of pretending they have a cure for Scoliosis - people like Scolismart etc.

Anyone who comes on the forum or worse still creates their own site or facebook page talking rubbish rather than science gets challenged by me.

I had already brought Scolismart to the attention of this forum hoping we could collectively do something about it.

The last thing I want when/if I post something asking for 'support' is hugs and kisses from people I don't even know. So when I said I thought this was a support site - I meant support in the way of replies that provide accurate information. This is what is available from SSo also. And I did not appreciate the slightly disparaging implication that maybe I should go there. Scoliosis is worldwide and being respectful of the US, I expect real scientific progress to come from there eventually.

I just objected to the comment saying ' we've had this conversation so many times before' - especially from a mod. This was the comment I felt was negative and did not contribute to the discussion at all.

Well I hadn't read it before because I am relatively new I expect a lot of newcomers would also not have come across such a discussion either. I was in no way objecting to the counter-posts which scientifically refuted what was being said.

Pooka1
02-10-2016, 11:39 AM
I had a post in another thread that has since been closed- my post was not really part of the raging argument- but just made a comment about support. For the record I am the FIRST person who wants to lay into these people who are making a fortune out of pretending they have a cure for Scoliosis - people like Scolismart etc.

I wouldn't characterize that as an "argument." There were not two sides. I agree you are helping in the war against pseudoscience!


Anyone who comes on the forum or worse still creates their own site or facebook page talking rubbish rather than science gets challenged by me.

And you are especially good at it I might add. :-)


The last thing I want when/if I post something asking for 'support' is hugs and kisses from people I don't even know. So when I said I thought this was a support site - I meant support in the way of replies that provide accurate information. This is what is available from SSo also. And I did not appreciate the slightly disparaging implication that maybe I should go there. Scoliosis is worldwide and being respectful of the US, I expect real scientific progress to come from there eventually.

NO! I did not mean to imply you should go to SSo. We need you here! I was directing the comment to other people who really are not interested in science and just want support. And that is okay. For those people, I think SSo is a better environment because I for one am going to challenge any comments touting pseudoscience here.


Well I hadn't read it before because I am relatively new I expect a lot of newcomers would also not have come across such a discussion either. I was in no way objecting to the counter-posts which scientifically refuted what was being said.

I LOVE that you post here, Burdle! I love WHAT you post.

The problem arises when some people want support for pseudoscience. They shouldn't get support for that for their own sake and that of others. That was the issue in the closed thread.

flerc
02-10-2016, 06:03 PM
I had a post in another thread that has since been closed- my post was not really part of the raging argument- but just made a comment about support. For the record I am the FIRST person who wants to lay into these people who are making a fortune out of pretending they have a cure for Scoliosis - people like Scolismart etc.

Anyone who comes on the forum or worse still creates their own site or facebook page talking rubbish rather than science gets challenged by me.

I had already brought Scolismart to the attention of this forum hoping we could collectively do something about it.

The last thing I want when/if I post something asking for 'support' is hugs and kisses from people I don't even know. So when I said I thought this was a support site - I meant support in the way of replies that provide accurate information. This is what is available from SSo also. And I did not appreciate the slightly disparaging implication that maybe I should go there. Scoliosis is worldwide and being respectful of the US, I expect real scientific progress to come from there eventually.

I just objected to the comment saying ' we've had this conversation so many times before' - especially from a mod. This was the comment I felt was negative and did not contribute to the discussion at all.

Well I hadn't read it before because I am relatively new I expect a lot of newcomers would also not have come across such a discussion either. I was in no way objecting to the counter-posts which scientifically refuted what was being said.

I have never was in a Clear group and I was banned in a lot of scoliosis sites, Face, Yahoo groups, forums.. the problem is not how much "according to science" is what that sites are promoting, the problem is that they are promoting something in a dishonest way.. fortunately not all of them. Of course if you begin to questioning what they promotes in those dishonest sites, you cannot be welcome. I was in a surgeon's Scoliosis group where only was accepted to talk about options recognized and used for the medical community.. we may say belonging to the medical protocol. His argument was that nothing not emerging from science or at least, analyzed, understood and statistically checked by scientists may work, and if something can accomplish those requirements, it belongs now to the medical community protocol, so you only can talk there about rigid braces and fusion. They didn't need to ban many people thinking different, they attacked them trying to show them as ignorants, don't knowing what science is and since very much few people resists attacks, able to respond to them, they leaves the site, exactly what they wants. Of course they know that Internet is the more important way to promote what they promotes and of course they must to disqualify every competence and people believing in it.
As I interpret you also think that debates should always be allowed, but some debates may show that what they promotes, may not be so good, no the best and only one option and competence may be better at least in some cases, so they try to don't allow debates.
And the worst of all are sites not saying in your face what they are promoting! They pretend to not be promoting nothing and they does EXACTLY what I said.
So don't be so worry about Clear groups, just only a drop in the sea and surely not the worst.

Delta107
03-07-2016, 11:35 AM
Chiropractic like Yoga or Qigong is a ancient practice from thousands of years ago, to not coming from science not necessary imply to be useless.

People have believed for centuries in the miasma theory. It turned out to be a fantasy, like so many other things. Like the humors theory of of Hippocrates and so on. The practice being old\ancient means literally nothing. As for yoga, this is more of a religious practise rather than a treatment method. I'm quite intimately acquainted with all sorts of bogus practises, you name it. Chiro, magnetic belt treatment for scoliosis, metaphysical wooden hammers for spinal reconstruction(the wood is physical enough), homeopathy for scoliosis treatment(you know not enough calcium bull....), useless energy massage(supposedly the quack infuses you with energy to treat scoliosis), reiki nonsense and other stuff I don't remember. When I was an adolescent a quack prescribed me to breath only through the left nostril. Supposedly this was supposed to "treat" the disbalance. Whenever I hear the word alternative treatment I want to vomit. I've been screwed up SO many times by quacks that I owe it to myself to be a skeptic and believe only in things that are provable.

flerc
03-07-2016, 06:39 PM
As I know, alternative methods are those not belonging to the medical protocol, so if you are an adult with scoliosis and you want to vomit when you hear about alternative methods, you have only two options: Doing nothing (they call it watch and wait) if you are under the surgical range and fusion, if you are in that range. Also in both cases you can use meds, drugs.. Good luck with those options!.

Pooka1
03-07-2016, 07:43 PM
Although I hate seeing adults suckered into nonsense treatments, the thing that make me vomit is when parents go to these treatments for their kids.

rohrer01
03-07-2016, 09:50 PM
As I know, alternative methods are those not belonging to the medical protocol, so if you are an adult with scoliosis and you want to vomit when you hear about alternative methods, you have only two options: Doing nothing (they call it watch and wait) if you are under the surgical range and fusion, if you are in that range. Also in both cases you can use meds, drugs.. Good luck with those options!.

Flerc,
From reading this post I have a very strong feeling that you are not understanding what we mean when we talk about "science" or "medicine".

The scientific method takes a hypothesis, no matter how old or what it's called, and puts it to the test. If there is strong "belief" that it will work based on the information gathered about it, it becomes a theory. If it is reproducible EVERY time it becomes fact. It may or may not be "relabeled" depending on the connotation and religious aspects behind it.

I, for one, will not do Yoga classes because they still call it Yoga and most of them still teach mantras, although you can choose whatever you want to repeat. That, to me, is religious. I'm not anti-religion. I'm anti-THAT religion for myself on a personal level. However, I would do specific poses as part of PT if they were proven to help with pain and/or progression if it isn't presented as Yoga. I don't care if they say it came from Yoga as long as they don't present it that way.

Honestly, when I had acupuncture I went to a legitimate medical facility and was SHOCKED when Chi and meridian garbage was presented to me. I felt EXTREMELY uncomfortable as I know that there is absolutely NO evidence that meridians exist and certainly Chi does not flow through these imaginary channels that don't exist. That's the garbage pseudoscience part of acupuncture. The scientifically proven way that it works makes it a legitimate therapy for SOME things, but not all that it claims to do.

So your interest in "alternative" therapies is totally legitimate IF you are separating out the junk from the fact. There may be a non-surgical way to help scoliosis. We just haven't found it, yet. It seems to be your mission to find it. Good for you and better for everyone else you share it with if you do! It just has to be repeatable and thus become fact. Then it will become mainstream science.

flerc
03-08-2016, 12:12 AM
Although I hate seeing adults suckered into nonsense treatments, the thing that make me vomit is when parents go to these treatments for their kids.

What make me vomit is to see people dedicating their lifes to convince people to take surgery. What may be more putrid? I cannot imagine really.

Pooka1
03-08-2016, 07:06 AM
What make me vomit is to see people dedicating their lifes to convince people to take surgery. What may be more putrid? I cannot imagine really.

I am following the evidence. That is all I am doing. You interpret that as advocating for surgery. You can't seem to grasp that the reason I seem pro-surgery to you is because that is where the most good evidence is. You are not focused on evidence. This is what I think Rohrer means when she suggests you do NOT appear to understand how science works. It is very obvious you are not willing or able to follow along in any of this. You are not playing the game rationally.

You are certainly not alone in your wanting to believe that there are effective non-surgical treatments for progression. Hope is rational. People can try these non-surgical treatments despite having little evidence. But rational people do not claim there is good evidence for these treatments. Rational people admit the most evidence of efficacy for treating progression is for surgical techniques. And they focus on evidence and not emotion. Please try that.

I have been floored several times by people coming on here just assuming there MUST exist a non-surgical treatment for progression just because, well there MUST be. That is a hope, not a scientific claim. Some folks clearly do not understand the difference.

Think about why people get surgery. Nobody would get surgery if there was evidence for effective non-surgical treatments for progression. Insurance companies wouldn't pay out on expensive surgeries if cheaper treatments existed.

Do you see how you can use logic to help navigate this area? You only use emotion which is never going to help you.

Pooka1
03-08-2016, 08:23 AM
What make me vomit is to see people dedicating their lifes to convince people to take surgery. What may be more putrid? I cannot imagine really.

I will make this simple... I am interested in evidence and my comments follow from that. That is science.

You don't want to accept that there are no effective non-surgical treatments for progression. That is emotion.

We are playing two entirely different games. That's why you have always struggled with understanding what I am doing in my comments.

flerc
03-08-2016, 10:17 PM
We are playing two entirely different games.

Yes, it's a fact, we are playing two entirely different games since I'm here because I need to solve a complex problem, not to convince anyone about nothing I have not time to sterile discussions, unavoidable among people with different purpose and different kind of thinking. For people with a mathematical thinking is impossible to accept the adapted terminology and concepts in order to conform a dogmatic vision trying to show the medical protocol as the only one choice. Science has nothing to do with this. You say that there is no evidence that non surgical treatments works. How can you know it? Evidence means proof, which is the proof you may show about it? It would be different if you would be saying that there is no evidence showing that non surgical treatments don't work, we may agree about the logic behind that claim, but you use a deformed definition about what evidence means. It took me some years to understand that kind of thinking, not really logical thinking and followed by most physicians (fortunately not all). I should need to born again to don't refuse this way to analyze problems, I can think by myself in a rational way.
If you would have enough background in hard sciences you would have a mathematical thinking and if you had ever led a complex Project in your life, you would understand what solve a problem really means and then you realize that a problem so complex as having scoliosis is does not admit a so simple vision as you are promoting here.

flerc
03-08-2016, 10:43 PM
Rational people admit the most evidence of efficacy for treating progression is for surgical techniques.

Rational people is not only focused in a part of the problem and a part of the options. It would be against logic and Problem Solving principles. They also realize how much difficult is to give a general solution to a complex problem with so many different cases. They also never discarded none option at least be sure there are other better in every sense and also understand that some options may be the best in some cases but not in others. It would be good you'll try to consider this concepts before doing your categorical claims.

Pooka1
03-09-2016, 06:50 AM
I'm here because I need to solve a complex problem

A lay person who is not familiar with how science works who cataloged one wacky treatment after the next from .com websites like you have done is not likely to solve a complex problem. Any complex problem.

Similarly, people with no science training who are doing armchair biochemistry by doing 5 minute google searches are not likely to solve IS.

The people most likely to solve a complex medical problem are MDs and PhDs trained in a specific field of science who use the scientific method to figure out what works.

When lay people try to play the game they often fail. Like Schroth whose MD grandson couldn't make it work. Or chiros working with imaginary concepts.

It seems likely to me that the way IS will be solved is by the PhDs in one of the few research groups. They will figure out how to interrupt the process such that no treatment, surgical or non-surgical is needed because the curve will never be allowed to develop.

Within the field of non-surgical techniques, the better papers are not by lay people but by lettered people including McIntire, Hawes, etc.. I do not include Weiss here because I think his papers are sometimes misleading. Just my opinion.

I understand the need for lay people to want to step and and speed the process of solving IS. But I am not sure it is ever going to be fruitful.

Pooka1
03-09-2016, 08:10 AM
If you would have enough background in hard sciences you would have a mathematical thinking and if you had ever led a complex Project in your life, you would understand what solve a problem really means and then you realize that a problem so complex as having scoliosis is does not admit a so simple vision as you are promoting here.

Watch this folks...

Are you as sure that I don't have a background in hard science and that I don't use math and that I have never lead a complex science project as you are sure of all your other claims?

I'll wait for your answer.

flerc
03-09-2016, 12:00 PM
Watch this folks...

Are you as sure that I don't have a background in hard science and that I don't use math and that I have never lead a complex science project as you are sure of all your other claims?

I'll wait for your answer.

So sure as you seems to be are sure I'm a lay person don't knowing what science and rational thinking is. But to be absolutely sure I should to really know why you filled this forum with pseudo rational reasonings, maybe only because you decided it would be the best for your purpose. I'm more sure that you are not a good person and absolutely sure you are at least a virtually bad person. To be absolutely sure you are really a bad person, I should to know you, to really know what is leading you to do what you are doing here and I cannot do that.

flerc
03-09-2016, 12:10 PM
Are you as sure that I don't have a background in hard science and that I don't use math

To use Math and to have a Mathematical thinking is not the same, is full of people using statistics or equations, or some outcomes of Math Analysis but don't having such kind of thinking, that you have proved here you don't have.. supposing you were really honest in what you said. I can quote thousands of evidence about this, you cannot do the same about me.

rohrer01
03-10-2016, 03:12 AM
I will make this simple... I am interested in evidence and my comments follow from that. That is science.

You don't want to accept that there are no effective non-surgical treatments for progression. That is emotion.

We are playing two entirely different games. That's why you have always struggled with understanding what I am doing in my comments.

Sharon,
I will defend Flerc here for this statement. You cannot PROVE that there exists no non-surgical treatment for progression in scoliosis. Therefore the bold (mine) statement is false until it can be proven true. You cannot say that something doesn't exist if you can't prove it doesn't exist (math logic). I know you can get into a bunch of hypothetical nonsense here.

There exists all kinds of things that the human race had no understanding of in the past. There still exist many things that the human race has no understanding of. When you get into quantum physics it is just mind blowing. The average person can not comprehend even the basics of what these physicists are doing and studying.

Just be careful of how things are phrased. Flerc is hopeful that a non-surgical cure will be found. He bases that hope on something. He may not be basing hope on emotion. He does need to understand the scientific method and that it is used on all kinds of what we may believe to be wacky ideas. Remember, people used to believe in spontaneous generation until it was tested by putting rotting meat in a jar and covering the jar with a cloth. The maggots appeared on the cloth and not in the meat. People really believed that rotting things created maggots and flies. They probably thought that the guy (I can't remember which one) was nuts by trying the scientific method on his hypothesis that maggots come from flies and not rotting things. He PROVED that the flies lay eggs and don't spontaneously appear. It was also widely accepted that the world was flat, wacky indeed, and proven wrong.

On the other hand, Flerc, SHAME on you for calling Sharon or anyone else a "bad person" and then trying to qualify it by saying that you can't say for sure she is unless you meet her. It is not for us to determine who a bad person is. Yes, there are bad people out there. But I'm certainly not going to go around saying someone is bad, especially if their crime is in contradicting my thoughts and ideas. I would just not associate with a person that makes ME feel bad.

Pooka1
03-10-2016, 05:20 AM
Sharon,
I will defend Flerc here for this statement. You cannot PROVE that there exists no non-surgical treatment for progression in scoliosis. Therefore the bold (mine) statement is false until it can be proven true. You cannot say that something doesn't exist if you can't prove it doesn't exist (math logic). I know you can get into a bunch of hypothetical nonsense here.

Yes of course. I said nothing to disagree with what you said.

I meant there are no proven treatments now that we know of. I never assume there won't be in the future. You can't prove a negative.

People can't just KNOW there is a proven treatment. They have to SHOW it. That hasn't been shown to date.

rohrer01
03-10-2016, 05:32 AM
I understood what you meant. However, math logic was brought up. We have to remember not to let emotion get the better of anyone whether they spout nonsense or not. I think your second comment made it more clear. I think Flerc is determined to find a non-surgical method for successfully treating scoliosis. If he does, a lot of people will applaud him.

But I think the, "you are a bad person", statement will get this thread closed when Linda gets up and sees it. You don't seem to be a bad person to me. You could have quit this forum YEARS ago. Yet, you persist. Your girls are grown and in college. Thanks for sticking around!

flerc
03-10-2016, 06:24 AM
I'm more sure that you are not a good person and absolutely sure you are at least a virtually bad person. To be absolutely sure you are really a bad person, I should to know you, to really know what is leading you to do what you are doing here and I cannot do that.

I have never said "you are a bad person" and I explained why I cannot say that.

Pooka1
03-10-2016, 06:42 AM
I understood what you meant. However, math logic was brought up. We have to remember not to let emotion get the better of anyone whether they spout nonsense or not. I think your second comment made it more clear. I think Flerc is determined to find a non-surgical method for successfully treating scoliosis. If he does, a lot of people will applaud him.

But I think the, "you are a bad person", statement will get this thread closed when Linda gets up and sees it. You don't seem to be a bad person to me. You could have quit this forum YEARS ago. Yet, you persist. Your girls are grown and in college. Thanks for sticking around!

I reported the post. Flerc is past the point of contributing anything of value. He admitted he is sure of things that are demonstrably false. That should give him pause. I hope he is banned until he can post rationally.

flerc
03-10-2016, 07:29 AM
I reported the post. Flerc is past the point of contributing anything of value. He admitted he is sure of things that are demonstrably false.

When? Where? Quote it instead of give your pseudo rational interpretation!

flerc
03-10-2016, 11:01 AM
I meant there are no proven treatments now that we know of.
Proven treatments and treatments working is not the same. You filled non surgical sections saying that there is no any surgical treatment that works and of course you never gave a rational demonstration about such kind of claims. It should not be allowed to write categorical claims without justifying them as you are doing here since many years ago! It's not ethical of course!

rohrer01
03-11-2016, 01:17 AM
Yes, it's a fact, we are playing two entirely different games since I'm here because I need to solve a complex problem, not to convince anyone about nothing I have not time to sterile discussions, unavoidable among people with different purpose and different kind of thinking. For people with a mathematical thinking is impossible to accept the adapted terminology and concepts in order to conform a dogmatic vision trying to show the medical protocol as the only one choice. Science has nothing to do with this. You say that there is no evidence that non surgical treatments works. How can you know it? Evidence means proof, which is the proof you may show about it? It would be different if you would be saying that there is no evidence showing that non surgical treatments don't work, we may agree about the logic behind that claim, but you use a deformed definition about what evidence means. It took me some years to understand that kind of thinking, not really logical thinking and followed by most physicians (fortunately not all). I should need to born again to don't refuse this way to analyze problems, I can think by myself in a rational way.
If you would have enough background in hard sciences you would have a mathematical thinking and if you had ever led a complex Project in your life, you would understand what solve a problem really means and then you realize that a problem so complex as having scoliosis is does not admit a so simple vision as you are promoting here.

Evidence does not mean proof. Proof is fact. (bold mine) If you had mathematical thinking you would know this.
In a court of law, both sides submit "evidence". There can be evidence that leads to proof if compounded with more evidence that makes a thing undeniable. In science you can have a thing with lots of "evidence" that can not be reproduced. That is a theory. If it can be reproduced time and time again, then it becomes proof or fact.

Unfortunately with scoliosis, no two cases are identical. Even surgery doesn't cure scoliosis. It is the most effective treatment that we have thus far to stop progression, straighten the spine (usually not entirely) and stabilize it. But, as you know, carries great risks. Some people are so far gone that they don't have a choice with the medical knowledge that we have now. Do you suggest that they try all of your ideas as their curves progress and are slowly dying?

I fully support the search for "alternative to surgery" treatments to halt and/or reduce and/or correct scoliosis. It's just the best we have for now are forms of PT, bracing and surgery. If an "alternative to surgery" treatment is found that works better than surgery it will be used mainstream and surgery will become obsolete.

flerc
03-11-2016, 05:32 AM
Evidence does not mean proof. Proof is fact. (bold mine) If you had mathematical thinking you would know this.

It's a matter of definitions, not of reasonings, if you had mathematical thinking you would know this. Anyway in Spanish are used indistinctly both terms. And certainly (at least in Spanish) a fact is something true regardless if someone may see it or not, an evidence should to be known (evident) for someone. A demonstration would be a proof, an evidence for people able to understand it and it would be showing a fact, something true. Rigorous definitions may say something different, certainly I don't use to use the term 'evidence', is more used by lawyers, people more propense to have other kind of thinking, but probably it is different according to the countries, I'm not sure.




Do you suggest that they try all of your ideas as their curves progress and are slowly dying?


I'm not insane, at least not enough to suggest that. Don't insult me please.

Pooka1
03-11-2016, 07:32 AM
I don't think anyone here is insane.

I think some otherwise rational parents appear to have been driven COMPLETELY around the bend by the scoliosis diagnosis in their child.

Parents with no science training throw themselves into this complex area of science/medicine and pretend to be researchers. This seems insane but is just an irrational reaction to a serious problem. I would bet my bank account that these people would NEVER have done that before their child's diagnosis. They are around the bend. I think it is a muted form of faith healing. A lay person who doesn't put in the years of actual training (not google!) to come up to speed is just doing faith, not science. A 5 minute google search is just as ineffectual as prayer.

Flerc is working entirely on emotion and faith and that isn't going to help anyone. Only evidence and science are going to move this ball down the court.

Pooka1
03-11-2016, 07:49 AM
http://ncse.com/evolution/education/definitions-fact-theory-law-scientific-work


Science uses specialized terms that have different meanings than everyday usage. These definitions correspond to the way scientists typically use these terms in the context of their work. Note, especially, that the meaning of “theory” in science is different than the meaning of “theory” in everyday conversation.

Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as “true.” Truth in science, however, is never final and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow.

Hypothesis: A tentative statement about the natural world leading to deductions that can be tested. If the deductions are verified, the hypothesis is provisionally corroborated. If the deductions are incorrect, the original hypothesis is proved false and must be abandoned or modified. Hypotheses can be used to build more complex inferences and explanations.

Law: A descriptive generalization about how some aspect of the natural world behaves under stated circumstances.

Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.

Source
The Role of Theory in Advancing 21st Century Biology, National Academy of Sciences

Pooka1
03-11-2016, 07:52 AM
Anyway in Spanish are used indistinctly both terms.

The terms are used interchangeably by lay people such as yourself. They are NOT used interchangeably by Spanish scientists. Do not insult them.

Pooka1
03-11-2016, 08:22 AM
This is how bizarre the situation is... lay people taking being labeled as lay people as an insult rather than a brute fact.

In a normal world, lay people accept the fact that they are lay people. It is no insult. It is just a statement on the lack of training they have received in one particular area. They are probably expert in other areas.

In this foreign scoliosis world, some parents think pointing out the obvious fact that they are lay people when it comes to scoliosis, medicine, science, the scientific methods, definition of science words, critical thinking, hypothesis testing, evidence, statistics, math, etc. etc. etc. is to somehow undermine their efforts to help their child.

The way people talk about these terms reveals their level of training. I don't think some parents appreciate this. What you say is hopelessly undermined by how you say it.

It is obvious not just what she says but HOW Rohrer talks that she has had science training. It is equally obvious from how Flerc talks that he has not had science training.

We have had parents on here in the past who if they weren't actively pretending to be medical researchers in the field of scoliosis etiology that they were failing their child. That is what it seemed like.

Being called a lay person when you are in fact a lay person is NOT an insult! That is NOT rational. That is around the bend. Hello????

flerc
03-11-2016, 08:41 AM
The terms are used interchangeably by lay people such as yourself. They are NOT used interchangeably by Spanish scientists. Do not insult them.

Show me a Spanish spoken mathematician talking about evidence. Anyway as I said is a matter of language definitions not about reasoning, but for someone showing to have a pseudo rational (is much to say) thinking, that difference will always be a mystery.

flerc
03-11-2016, 08:48 AM
Of course what should to be important for you is to quote a post where I used this term in wrong way. You cannot, but I can quote THOUSANDS of your post using it in a wrong way or simply denoting your extreme pseudo rational thinking and non ethical behaviour. You know that!

rohrer01
03-11-2016, 09:22 PM
It's a matter of definitions, not of reasonings, if you had mathematical thinking you would know this. Anyway in Spanish are used indistinctly both terms. And certainly (at least in Spanish) a fact is something true regardless if someone may see it or not, an evidence should to be known (evident) for someone. A demonstration would be a proof, an evidence for people able to understand it and it would be showing a fact, something true. Rigorous definitions may say something different, certainly I don't use to use the term 'evidence', is more used by lawyers, people more propense to have other kind of thinking, but probably it is different according to the countries, I'm not sure.

I'm not insane, at least not enough to suggest that. Don't insult me please.

Excuse me, but I give definitions and then examples to show the misuse of them. I, in no way insulted you by saying that. What would you do if your daughter had a 120o curve? Would you still resort to looking for a non-surgical method of treating her? THAT would be insane and that appears to be what you are suggesting. You are admittedly anti-surgery, as we would ALL like to be. But there are times that surgery has to be the last resort. Some people choose it earlier to avoid a more risky surgical procedure. Surgery does NOT cure scoliosis. There is no "cure". I actually complimented you for your rigorous search for non-surgical for non-surgical approaches. I defended you when Sharon, in the heat of emotion, used a term incorrectly when I knew what point she was trying to make. I did it because you were nit-picking (picking on small things such as whether a person has a mathematical mind) her ideas. That is the ONLY reason I said something. So no, I wasn't insulting you by asking that question. Now you are claiming a language barrier. Maybe it is. But do you really think all of this picking and accusing is accomplishing anything? This is likely the reason that you were kicked off of other forums.

So at what point would you let your daughter have surgery, 50o's (no, because she's already surpassed that), 60o's, 70o, 80o's, 100o's, 120o's? This disease creeps up on it's victims while they keep trying other things to avoid surgery. I'm not a surgery advocator unless it's the last option. When it becomes obvious that these other alternatives aren't working, tell me what other choices are there? I honestly want to know your answer on that. So I am not inferring that you are insane or insulting you by that comment.

I have a 46ocurve that has displaced and deformed my heart, lungs, and stomach and is causing my aorta and esophageal sphincter to collide putting pressure on both. Granted, I have a very unusual curve. But you don't know what your daughter's curve is doing to her organs. For me, this could have all been avoided if my mother had consented to let me have surgery when I was 16 years old and my curve was in the upper 30's.

Some people can get away with very large curves and some can not. Back then "alternative" treatments were all there was except surgery in the medical community. Things have come a LONG way since then. I was subjected to so many things by the mainstream medical community that when I turned 18 I just tried to forget about it and live my life. I know your daughter has aged out and no longer has to be subjected to your alternative treatments. If she chooses or has chosen to have surgery there's absolutely nothing you can do about it now. If her curve/s continue to progress wouldn't it have been more humane to have had her get surgery when she was younger and the risks of complications SO much lower?

So, if you can't honestly answer that question I posed to you, this conversation is unproductive and should be stopped.

flerc
03-12-2016, 02:17 AM
Excuse me, but I give definitions and then examples to show the misuse of them.

I suppose you are accepting it was in any case a matter of definitions and not about rigorous thinking or not, as you said first. Anyway, I would not say I was really using wrong definitions. In the CONTEXT I was talking, I was saying that an evidence is a proof and I cannot say it is wrong.
At least in some contexts in some countries I may say is not used as you said. Showing the body he said: Here is the evidence/proof necessary to show that her husband is dead. Is something showing a fact, that is, something that is true. It seems that for you 'proof' is only a demonstration. For me a proof prove that something is a fact, but of course is not the fact. In Maths we don't talk about evidence, even not about facts, we talk about demonstrations (proofs), and right sentences.

About the insult believing I could let someone die you are repeating it again 'THAT would be insane and that appears to be what you are suggesting.' Believe me I'm not responding an agression, but I really don't understand the way you use to arrive to conclusions. What could have I said leading you to say that?. It seems you interpret in a similar what I say that your friend Pooka1.. believe me I'm again not wanting to respond to any agression saying this.
I respond with this:
Is very difficult for me to believe in a reduction close to 25% in such super giant curve.. the lack of x-ray does it more difficult. But anyway if the prognosis from people treating her is so bad that not believe she may live more than only some few years more, that treatment is not useful. Nobody should to prevent her to visit a surgeon.

I could not really say I'm anti-surgery, I never admitted it as you are saying, otherwise I would have never said that. In any case I'm anti non satisfactory solutions if satisfactory solutions exists. The war against pro surgical and anti surgical is an inventions of your lovely friend Pooka1, I have never had nothing to do with it. For me surgical or nonsurgical are different kind of solutions and everyone should try to find the best, of course when there is time to do it. I'm personally friend of mothers who decided surgery for her daughters, I have a lot of friends in groups and forum who had surgery, only a sick or perverse mind may imagine such kind of ridiculous and evil war. I don't see fusion as a good solution, I see it as an old solution and I'm sure that everyone must to try with something else before decide it, but I don't say ignorant, desperates, lay people, and nothing similar to people decided to surgery as your friend says to people trying something different. Certainly I don't understand how may like you someone doing all these. Believe me, I could do in the surgical sections what she does here, but fortunately I'm not forced to do something so perverse, sick and evil.

I can answer honestly any question, if I want to do it or not depends on many variables, not only the kind of question.
My daughter fortunately I can say she is really fine, with a real normal life although her curve, that according x- rays is almost the same in 7 years. I perfectly know how to measure x-rays, anyway is always the same surgeon who write the degrees. 57º 7 years ago, 55º last year.
Of course I think all these years in all what you are saying, so I'm looking for something else. I was not who recommended her to do what she is doing and she is not doing nothing of all what I think she must to also does. Nobody wants to hear me talking about scoliosis, I was extremely close to the divorce because it.. I remain.

I understand what you say but I'm not sure it could be deterministic. When I have heard about scoliosis for first time and I was destroyed and evaluating the possibility of surgery, my sister asked me if I was crazy. Three of her best friends are on or over 50º and all have perfectly normal lives, they are around 70 y.o. and I know them since I was a kid or a teen and I have never heard about scoliosis until I knew about my daughter. One of them have 80º, I could not believe it when my sister said me. I owe her my decision of refuse surgery. She is incredible fine, I decide to not insist her any more to enter to forums to share her case , she doesn't want to see forums and nothing about scoliosis and not because any problem with Internet, she is a scientist working every day in her computer but it really seems she doesn't think in her scoliosis.

My daughter had an accident some months ago, she fell down in the bathroom. I don't know and I don't want to imagine what could do such hit to someone who had surgery. Fortunately only her knee was damaged, I'm very worry but Doctors are saying it's not too serious and she is in treating.
I'm who is not fine, all the day thinking in scoliosis and now in her knee.. but certainly I'm not sure, because I have an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and if I would not be obsessed with scoliosis I would be obsessed with something else.

If you are absolutely sure that your curve is causing all what you say and is really very harmful and affecting too much your life, you should to consider to reduce your curve and run the risks. I don't remember what you said me when I suggested you Spinecor for adults. Other option would be try with Side Plank, who know? It seems to be evidence that it works in some cases. Schroth and SEAS even there are some evidence (at least about SEAS) of reduction in adults, surely the possibility of achieve a significant reduction is very low, so before thinking in fusion, you should to know if Vbt could be work in your curve, probably not, but I don't know.

flerc
03-12-2016, 09:18 AM
Anyway, I would not say I was really using wrong definitions. In the CONTEXT I was talking, I was saying that an evidence is a proof and I cannot say it is wrong.
I was right.
prueba (proof)
nombre femenino
1.
Cosa material, hecho, suceso, razón o argumento con que se prueba o se intenta probar que algo es de una determinada manera y no de otra.
Since an evidence shows that something is true, it prove it, then is a proof.

rohrer01
03-13-2016, 05:33 AM
Flerc,
I will address a few things in your post.
1. I'm very glad that your daughter is doing well and has moved on with her life without obsessing about her scoliosis. I did the same thing when I turned 18. I was put through so many exercises, traction, electrical stimulation, shoe lifts, etc. I was sick of it all. Whatever your daughter is doing is keeping her stable for seven years with a 50+ degree curve. That is great! I'm sorry to hear that she fell. I have heard that the fused part of the spine is very strong, stronger than the non-fused spine. With that in mind, her back would have probably been fine with her fall unless she hurt the non-fused portion. I am not fused and have been hurt very badly from falls.

2. I'm not familiar with VBt. I've read about VBS and tethering, both of which are for growing youngsters and are still surgery.

3. I have never met Pooka1, therefore I can't call her my "friend" as you say. We disagree on some very major things but still manage to get along quite well. You can agree to disagree and still be nice to people. I don't have what you think is an agenda to lead people to surgery. My agenda is to learn options of treating scoliosis. I learned that there are things that can be done such as VBT and tethering while a child is growing. I never knew that. Had I not come here, I would have never known that. I have learned that in certain cases, PT can help alleviate the pain of scoliosis and help increase breath volume. There are many things I've learned here. Unfortunately, I haven't learned anything that can help my weird and untouchable curve that no one has ever seen before. So, no, I don't have what you think Pooka1's agenda is to lead everyone to the operating table. Even she tried bracing in one of her girls. She became disillusioned with bracing when it did nothing to keep her daughter off of the operating table. I believe that is why she attacks the statistics about the efficacy of bracing long term. But, I do know that if someone I know has a child with scoliosis that I can direct them to less invasive and dangerous techniques as fusion. But fusion is necessary sometimes. I actually got reprimanded on the surgical forum for posting a paper on the complications and mortality rates of fusion. So do you call that a surgical agenda?

4. Maybe in YOUR language "evidence" means proof. In English it does not. If someone were to tell me that there was evidence that my loved one is dead, I would not accept that as proof especially if they were on life-support. The doctor would have to show me evidence that there was absolutely no brain activity and they could not breathe on their own to prove to me they are dead. Of course, if they were cold, blue, stiff, and not breathing and had no heartbeat, that would be enough evidence to show me they were dead. There is still evidence and proof which is fact. There was "evidence" that was accepted for a long time that showed that maggots and flies came from rotting things. Someone challenged that evidence by putting a cloth over a jar of rotting meat where the flies lay their eggs and maggots appeared no, not from the meat but from the flies. That experiment disproved "evidence" that there was spontaneous generation. In mathematics logic is used to prove statements and equations. Example: The water is polluted and green. A=polluted water and B=green water. In this case A==>B but B=\=>A because not all green water is polluted, which is what B to A infers. The evidence is that the green water is polluted which is true in this case but not true in all cases of green water.

5. These arguments are petty and unproductive. They don't help anyone looking for scoliosis help. Your original post was a bunch of chiropractic stuff that they call "Boot Camp". There have been people on here complaining of this treatment. So what has this thread contributed? Nothing but arguing. The "Boot Camp" is discussed in other threads. Please quit picking fights and saying mean things about people, including me. At least you admit your OCD behavior. That is a step in the right direction. Please redirect it in actually doing research and not fighting on forums. Offer what you find and leave it alone, please.

Pooka1
03-13-2016, 10:37 AM
So, no, I don't have what you think Pooka1's agenda is to lead everyone to the operating table. Even she tried bracing in one of her girls. She became disillusioned with bracing when it did nothing to keep her daughter off of the operating table. I believe that is why she attacks the statistics about the efficacy of bracing long term.

No that is incorrect.

I don't "attack" the stats, I question them from a point of scientific skepticism as everyone who is trained in science would do. I question the stats because the literature in this area of bracing and PT to avoid surgery for life is a train wreck. It is such a train wreck that even someone outside this field can easily find the issues. That is not the case in say my field of science in my opinion. This is not the fault of the surgeons/researchers... the field is much more difficult than in other fields.

I do NOT question bracing because it failed my one daughter. Bracing is known to have a poor track record in certain connective tissue disorders. My daughter has something, hopefully not Marfans but something. So bracing in her case was probably not useful and therefore doesn't inform my opinion of general bracing efficacy.

If only the literature wasn't such train wreck we might advance the ball down the field. But when the gold standard paper declares bracing a success in a child with a 49* curve and up to 25% growth remaining, and then doesn't post the curve measurements at the end of the study, how does that not add to the train wreck? Does anyone believe the cases who ended above 40* aren't likely to need fusion in the future if only due to pain and damage from being out of alignment? Yet they are still "successes". And we have had cases on the forum where bracing appeared to hold the curve to the point of skeletal maturity and then they later needed surgery as adults.

The bracing literature does not, or maybe cannot, address the one issue patients want to know... does bracing (or PT) let them avoid surgery for life. That is why I question these treatments.

LindaRacine
03-13-2016, 03:21 PM
Flerc,
I will address a few things in your post.
1. I'm very glad that your daughter is doing well and has moved on with her life without obsessing about her scoliosis. I did the same thing when I turned 18. I was put through so many exercises, traction, electrical stimulation, shoe lifts, etc. I was sick of it all. Whatever your daughter is doing is keeping her stable for seven years with a 50+ degree curve. That is great! I'm sorry to hear that she fell. I have heard that the fused part of the spine is very strong, stronger than the non-fused spine. With that in mind, her back would have probably been fine with her fall unless she hurt the non-fused portion. I am not fused and have been hurt very badly from falls.

2. I'm not familiar with VBt. I've read about VBS and tethering, both of which are for growing youngsters and are still surgery.

3. I have never met Pooka1, therefore I can't call her my "friend" as you say. We disagree on some very major things but still manage to get along quite well. You can agree to disagree and still be nice to people. I don't have what you think is an agenda to lead people to surgery. My agenda is to learn options of treating scoliosis. I learned that there are things that can be done such as VBT and tethering while a child is growing. I never knew that. Had I not come here, I would have never known that. I have learned that in certain cases, PT can help alleviate the pain of scoliosis and help increase breath volume. There are many things I've learned here. Unfortunately, I haven't learned anything that can help my weird and untouchable curve that no one has ever seen before. So, no, I don't have what you think Pooka1's agenda is to lead everyone to the operating table. Even she tried bracing in one of her girls. She became disillusioned with bracing when it did nothing to keep her daughter off of the operating table. I believe that is why she attacks the statistics about the efficacy of bracing long term. But, I do know that if someone I know has a child with scoliosis that I can direct them to less invasive and dangerous techniques as fusion. But fusion is necessary sometimes. I actually got reprimanded on the surgical forum for posting a paper on the complications and mortality rates of fusion. So do you call that a surgical agenda?

4. Maybe in YOUR language "evidence" means proof. In English it does not. If someone were to tell me that there was evidence that my loved one is dead, I would not accept that as proof especially if they were on life-support. The doctor would have to show me evidence that there was absolutely no brain activity and they could not breathe on their own to prove to me they are dead. Of course, if they were cold, blue, stiff, and not breathing and had no heartbeat, that would be enough evidence to show me they were dead. There is still evidence and proof which is fact. There was "evidence" that was accepted for a long time that showed that maggots and flies came from rotting things. Someone challenged that evidence by putting a cloth over a jar of rotting meat where the flies lay their eggs and maggots appeared no, not from the meat but from the flies. That experiment disproved "evidence" that there was spontaneous generation. In mathematics logic is used to prove statements and equations. Example: The water is polluted and green. A=polluted water and B=green water. In this case A==>B but B=\=>A because not all green water is polluted, which is what B to A infers. The evidence is that the green water is polluted which is true in this case but not true in all cases of green water.

5. These arguments are petty and unproductive. They don't help anyone looking for scoliosis help. Your original post was a bunch of chiropractic stuff that they call "Boot Camp". There have been people on here complaining of this treatment. So what has this thread contributed? Nothing but arguing. The "Boot Camp" is discussed in other threads. Please quit picking fights and saying mean things about people, including me. At least you admit your OCD behavior. That is a step in the right direction. Please redirect it in actually doing research and not fighting on forums. Offer what you find and leave it alone, please.

I could not agree more. Thanks for such a thoughtful post.

--Linda

rohrer01
03-13-2016, 04:21 PM
No that is incorrect.

I don't "attack" the stats, I question them from a point of scientific skepticism as everyone who is trained in science would do. I question the stats because the literature in this area of bracing and PT to avoid surgery for life is a train wreck. It is such a train wreck that even someone outside this field can easily find the issues. That is not the case in say my field of science in my opinion. This is not the fault of the surgeons/researchers... the field is much more difficult than in other fields.

I do NOT question bracing because it failed my one daughter. Bracing is known to have a poor track record in certain connective tissue disorders. My daughter has something, hopefully not Marfans but something. So bracing in her case was probably not useful and therefore doesn't inform my opinion of general bracing efficacy.

If only the literature wasn't such train wreck we might advance the ball down the field. But when the gold standard paper declares bracing a success in a child with a 49* curve and up to 25% growth remaining, and then doesn't post the curve measurements at the end of the study, how does that not add to the train wreck? Does anyone believe the cases who ended above 40* aren't likely to need fusion in the future if only due to pain and damage from being out of alignment? Yet they are still "successes". And we have had cases on the forum where bracing appeared to hold the curve to the point of skeletal maturity and then they later needed surgery as adults.

The bracing literature does not, or maybe cannot, address the one issue patients want to know... does bracing (or PT) let them avoid surgery for life. That is why I question these treatments.

My apologies. It was an honest mistake to infer that your daughter's bracing failure got you looking at the bracing statistics. To Flerc, this mean "attack" in every line of reasoning that I've seen from him. I made an inference that the failure caused you to look more deeply into this treatment because it sure would have made me look deeper into it.

Regardless of "why" you looked into it, you have found some astounding articles that would probably steer me away from bracing my child. My DIL had a brace failure and she was diagnosed at 12 years old with an 11o curve and needed spinal fusion at age 16! She isn't hyper mobile to any extent that I have seen. She does have very long thin fingers, though.

susancook
03-13-2016, 04:35 PM
I enjoy the forum because it provides me with helpful strategies for recovery, emotional support from people who "have been there done that", personal accounts of experiences with different therapies, as well as some new treatments/surgical techniques/medical articles concerning treatments.

I have looked at the forum on and off for the past week or so and the "what's new" screen is filled with mostly 2 people countering back and forth on this thread and 2 others, neither person seeming to make any headway. Of the past approx 40 entries, 36 or so deal with constant/incessant long entries that do not appear to ever make any headway. When can you stop this thread AND not start another? Maybe take it off line? Enough! Enough!

Susan

Pooka1
03-13-2016, 04:48 PM
I enjoy the forum because it provides me with helpful strategies for recovery, emotional support from people who "have been there done that", personal accounts of experiences with different therapies, as well as some new treatments/surgical techniques/medical articles concerning treatments.

I have looked at the forum on and off for the past week or so and the "what's new" screen is filled with mostly 2 people countering back and forth on this thread and another neither person seeming to make any headway. When can you stop this thread AND not start another? Maybe take it off line? Enough! Enough!

Susan

Susan I completely agree this back and forth is not productive. But that said, I don't see how you can possibly make a case that it is worse than no new posts which is exactly what would have happened absent these exchanges. This forum very VERY slow and would be even slower if the nonsense back and forths ceased. People might conclude it was abandoned given the slow posting rate.

I assume you aren't going to argue there would be more legit posting absent the nonsense. There is no evidence or even reason to support "driving people away" and especially "driving people away who have something real to contribute." It would be good if people who are not contributing would be driven away but nobody has cracked that nut yet. LOL.

Pooka1
03-13-2016, 04:57 PM
My apologies. It was an honest mistake to infer that your daughter's bracing failure got you looking at the bracing statistics. To Flerc, this mean "attack" in every line of reasoning that I've seen from him. I made an inference that the failure caused you to look more deeply into this treatment because it sure would have made me look deeper into it.

Regardless of "why" you looked into it, you have found some astounding articles that would probably steer me away from bracing my child. My DIL had a brace failure and she was diagnosed at 12 years old with an 11o curve and needed spinal fusion at age 16! She isn't hyper mobile to any extent that I have seen. She does have very long thin fingers, though.

No need to apologize!

Concerned Dad credited my posting those papers with taking his daughter out of brace. And indeed her curve held until WELL past skeletal maturity and then moved. She was spared brace treatment and made it to skeletal maturity at a"safe" curve level. That would have been considered a brace failure if she had been wearing the brace but in fact it was not a brace failure since she wan't wearing one! This is how dicey the situation is and how the literature can't be other than a train wreck in my opinion.

Actually as I recall, I started reading the bracing literature when my daughter was first put in one because I wanted to know the fact case. I think I realized it was a train wreck WHILE she was wearing it and BEFORE I knew the outcome of her case. The history of my thinking on this is probably memorialized in the forum so whatever that shows is what went down w.r.t. timing of my thinking about bracing. Maybe I started looking at the bracing literature only after her brace failure as you suggest but I don't think so. That may be went I became more vocal about it but until I found the paper on the refractory nature of Marfans (and perhaps other connective tissue disorders) to brace treatment, I would not have realized that my daughter was not typical and was probably doomed to fail brace treatment.

I have mentioned at least a few times that I think the case for bracing would be somewhat better if they excluded the connective tissue disorder patients. This area of research is rocket surgery when it is hard to exclude certain conditions from brace studies for some reason.

rohrer01
03-13-2016, 05:01 PM
I agree that this particular thread should have been closed after the personal attack. But, I have contributed things about myself and logic that some may find useful when they come across absurd statements. I hate the arguing. I guess that's why I quit the forum for nearly a year and find myself sucked back into these threads. I feel I need to defend irrationality. This thread had no integrity from post #1 as it was a repeat of a discussion that had been discussed and argued to death already.

Pooka1
03-13-2016, 05:10 PM
Paradoxically, I think both the bracing success rate and bracing failure rate are too high.

The success rate is too high for at least three reasons:

1. point of skeletal maturity is known to be an inadequate time point for declaring success/failure
2. the focus in bracing studies solely on Cobb angle in avoiding fusion as opposed to acknowledging pain from damage from a curve over the years driving people to fusion
3. the gold standard study counts as a success when a child has a 49* curve and up to 25% growth remaining.

The failure rate is too high at least due to the failure to exclude patients who are known to be likely refractory to brace treatment.

How can this not jump the tracks? How can this fail to be a train wreck?

rohrer01
03-13-2016, 05:13 PM
No need to apologize!

Concerned Dad credited my posting those papers with taking his daughter out of brace. And indeed her curve held until WELL past skeletal maturity and then moved. She was spared brace treatment and made it to skeletal maturity at a"safe" curve level. That would have been considered a brace failure if she had been wearing the brace but in fact it was not a brace failure since she wan't wearing one! This is how dicey the situation is and how the literature can't be other than a train wreck in my opinion.

Actually as I recall, I started reading the bracing literature when my daughter was first put in one because I wanted to know the fact case. I think I realized it was a train wreck WHILE she was wearing it and BEFORE I knew the outcome of her case. The history of my thinking on this is probably memorialized in the forum so whatever that shows is what went down w.r.t. timing of my thinking about bracing. Maybe I started looking at the bracing literature only after her brace failure as you suggest but I don't think so. That may be went I became more vocal about it but until I found the paper on the refractory nature of Marfans (and perhaps other connective tissue disorders) to brace treatment, I would not have realized that my daughter was not typical and was probably doomed to fail brace treatment.

I have mentioned at least a few times that I think the case for bracing would be somewhat better if they excluded the connective tissue disorder patients. This area of research is rocket surgery when it is hard to exclude certain conditions from brace studies for some reason.

I would have been put in a brace if they had one that would touch my curve. They talked about a Milwaukee brace for me and decided it couldn't get to that area just at the tip of my shoulder blade where the apex of my curve is. I'm ever so thankful, especially since I learned on the forum what a Milwaukee brace was! We didn't have internet back in those days...

I was also diagnosed with AIS when we know now that I have a neuromuscular degenerative disease. I also probably had the curve before age 8 which is about the age I can remember first having back pain. I was also included in the Scoliscore research as AIS, which makes me wonder how many of us are really AIS or some other disease process. That makes Scoliscore unreliable in my book. I was one of its biggest advocates and really, REALLY excited when they came out with it!

rohrer01
03-13-2016, 05:20 PM
Paradoxically, I think both the bracing success rate and bracing failure rate are too high.

The success rate is too high for at least three reasons:

1. point of skeletal maturity is known to be an inadequate time point for declaring success/failure
2. the focus in bracing studies solely on Cobb angle in avoiding fusion as opposed to acknowledging pain from damage from a curve over the years driving people to fusion
3. the gold standard study counts as a success when a child has a 49* curve and up to 25% growth remaining.

The failure rate is too high at least due to the failure to exclude patients who are known to be likely refractory to brace treatment.

How can this not jump the tracks? How can this fail to be a train wreck?

Back in the day, 40o was considered the trigger level for spinal fusion. I was diagnosed with 39o and had records saying 37o but they were always taken laying down...??? That was at a scoliosis treatment program at Phoenix Children's Hospital. That's why I was a surgical candidate then and am not now. It makes no sense. They are too focused on the Cobb angle which tells you NOTHING about rotation or degree of kyphosis. Bracing falls into the same mentality and actually forces hypokyphosis on kids! That's a dangerous thing...

Pooka1
03-13-2016, 06:37 PM
Back in the day, 40o was considered the trigger level for spinal fusion. I was diagnosed with 39o and had records saying 37o but they were always taken laying down...??? That was at a scoliosis treatment program at Phoenix Children's Hospital. That's why I was a surgical candidate then and am not now. It makes no sense. They are too focused on the Cobb angle which tells you NOTHING about rotation or degree of kyphosis. Bracing falls into the same mentality and actually forces hypokyphosis on kids! That's a dangerous thing...

Excellent points, Rohrer.

susancook
03-13-2016, 06:53 PM
I assume you aren't going to argue there would be more legit posting absent the nonsense. There is no evidence or even reason to support "driving people away" and especially "driving people away who have something real to contribute." L.

This "nonsense" is driving ME away. I need a forum with support, helpful suggestions in dealing with pre and post op issues, and updates on new research on spinal cord surgery. This forum used to fit my needs, so i actively participated. This forum does not currently does not fit my needs. Sad for me and maybe others.

Susan

Pooka1
03-13-2016, 07:03 PM
This "nonsense" is driving ME away. I need a forum with support, helpful suggestions in dealing with pre and post op issues, and updates on new research on spinal cord surgery. This forum used to fit my needs, so i actively participated. This forum does not currently does not fit my needs. Sad for me and maybe others.

Susan

Yes but the posts you do want to see aren't magically going to come into existence just because the nonsense stops. So you'll still be out of luck on that score.

flerc
03-14-2016, 12:10 AM
4. Maybe in YOUR language "evidence" means proof. In English it does not. If someone were to tell me that there was evidence that my loved one is dead, I would not accept that as proof especially if they were on life-support. The doctor would have to show me evidence that there was absolutely no brain activity and they could not breathe on their own to prove to me they are dead. Of course, if they were cold, blue, stiff, and not breathing and had no heartbeat, that would be enough evidence to show me they were dead. There is still evidence and proof which is fact. There was "evidence" that was accepted for a long time that showed that maggots and flies came from rotting things. Someone challenged that evidence by putting a cloth over a jar of rotting meat where the flies lay their eggs and maggots appeared no, not from the meat but from the flies. That experiment disproved "evidence" that there was spontaneous generation. In mathematics logic is used to prove statements and equations. Example: The water is polluted and green. A=polluted water and B=green water. In this case A==>B but B=\=>A because not all green water is polluted, which is what B to A infers. The evidence is that the green water is polluted which is true in this case but not true in all cases of green water.

I agree is unproductive this discussion but you began it when you said me that I have not a Mathematical thinking because you thought I was using a wrong definition.. a matter of definition, not thinking as I have had to said you. So even I know is unproductive I can ask you why do you believe you may teach me about logic and logic in Maths? Because Pooka1 says I'm a lay in science so I have not a rational mind and then what I say have no sense? I challenge you too to quote an example from my posts if that is the case, if not, stop to talk with me as if I were an ignorant please.

flerc
03-14-2016, 12:37 AM
Please quit picking fights and saying mean things about people, including me.

Please don't say me what I should to do or not and certainly you are who are saying mean things about people here, and this show it. Evidence! Or proof, call it as you want, but the worst is that is not true. You are saying I'm picking fights when I'm only defending from attacks.. probably it means the same for you, who knows? And if I'm saying mean things about Pooka1 I can prove it, certainly I can prove it in a judgment! I have more than enough evidence. And what mean thing I said about you? That Pooka1 is your friend? I would be really very much upset if someone would say me this but nobody here could think that it would upset also you.

flerc
03-14-2016, 01:54 AM
At least you admit your OCD behavior. That is a step in the right direction. Please redirect it in actually doing research and not fighting on forums. Offer what you find and leave it alone, please.

There are a large list of behaviours belonging to people OCD, it seems that some of them may match with only some few. Even I don't trust in psychologists theories I did a self diagnostic when I realized how much difficult for me is to don't think in problems and I heard that people with this disorder may think too much time in the same, something impossible for other people. It has some advantages. I said to many of the great members that left this forum, they were doing what anyone with an absolutely normal mind would do. Certainly I'm the last survivor here, few people can resists to attacks and I think it has to do.
I don't know what may means for you "fight" but try to think that surely is what you are doing saying me all this, as also I'm doing replying you in this way. Of course I can do it, I'm defending, but it seems you don't understand the difference.
And again, don't say me please what I should to do or not, I have not really idea what may lead you to think you have some kind of authority to do that.

rohrer01
03-14-2016, 09:23 AM
Flerc,
I said quit picking fights and saying mean things. I have a right to say that to anyone. What does it accomplish? NOTHING. You used to be one of the people that I had the most meaningful and productive conversations with on the forum. Since you've started your vendetta against Pooka1, everything has changed. If ANYONE dares approve of anything she says, they become your enemy. This is not productive and Pooka1 and I should take our conversation to a new thread and this one should be closed. I will no longer respond to you egging me on. DONE.

flerc
03-14-2016, 06:13 PM
Pooka1 and I should take our conversation to a new thread

Take both of you your conversation wherever you want.