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LindaRacine
11-04-2014, 02:31 PM
Member aterry posted a link in the Research forum, to a WSJ article about a study that shows that a specific yoga move might be helpful in terms of "reducing" scoliosis curves. I don't, for a minute, believe that this move will permanently reduce anyone's curves, but it may be helpful in terms of keeping one out of surgery. I purchased a copy of the publication, and it doesn't really give us a lot more info. I can't post it here, but would be happy to try to answer any questions you might have.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/study-doing-the-side-plank-reduced-spinal-curving-in-scoliosis-patients-1414443022

--Linda

Lizardacres
11-05-2014, 12:26 PM
That is really interesting! I'd like to see a video of how one gets INTO that pose. If anybody is doing this, please describe how you do it.

LindaRacine
11-05-2014, 10:54 PM
Direct your browser to Google and search for SIDE PLANK +VIDEO. There are all sorts of examples.

flerc
12-25-2014, 07:06 PM
I'm not 100% sure.. having a right main curve means that convex side of this curve (seeing the back) is in the right side, so this excercise should to be does standing over the right arm. I'm wrong? Someone is doing it?

flerc
12-26-2014, 08:30 AM
It's only useful for curves with only ONE C curve? For C curves with a main curve but also other curves, could be some risk?
https://yogainternational.com/article/view/yoga-for-scoliosis-new-research-supports-the-benefits-of-side-plank

Pooka1
12-26-2014, 12:13 PM
It's only useful for curves with only ONE C curve? For C curves with a main curve but also other curves, could be some risk?
https://yogainternational.com/article/view/yoga-for-scoliosis-new-research-supports-the-benefits-of-side-plank

From that write up, it seems that ONLY lumbar curves were studied with the side plank (emphasis added):


The side plank should be done daily on one side, only with the convex side of the lumbar curve downward, for as long as possible each time.”

Thoracic curves are much more common. He uses a DIFFERENT pose for those...


Sometimes the upper curve may be independent or may even have come first. With the help of other yoga experts I’ve figured out a number of other effective asanas for reducing and correcting the upper curve, including, but not limited to, ardha chandrasana (half moon pose).”

And what about TL curves?

If the side plank was only studied for lumbar curves then the title and abstract should have indicated that. This is one reason why I question the quality of the journal.

flerc
12-26-2014, 12:34 PM
I was close to say this to muy daughter who has a thoracolumbar (main thoracic) curve.
If it's only for lumbar curves, they would be generating false ilusions in really very much people around the world! It would not be good! How is possible this? It would not be serious really, they are talking about a solution for scoliosis, but how many cases may be with only one lumbar curve?.

AMom
12-27-2014, 12:03 AM
Pooka1,

I believe they included left and right T, TL, and L single and double major/ major & compensatory curves (I don't know yet if he differentiated between the later type of curves) and he used modified versions of the side plank for differing physical abilities as well as the different curves. It is my understanding that they got better results with the TL and L curves than the T curves. To the best of my knowledge, they have not focused on adolescents, rather, they appear to work mostly with adults. In adults, the curve reduction is lost several months after the side plank is stopped. I don't think they know what will happen for adolescents at this time, but may be interested in the subject matter.

The MedX CTR and RC get better results for T and L curves than the TL curves. This has been studied in adolescents rather than adults and from the little antidotal evidence I can find, the curve reduction may remain stable if the PT is continued through maturation.

A Mom

Pooka1
12-27-2014, 10:26 AM
A Mom,

Thanks so much for that edification. I now think the material I posted above is the work of the guy talking about the original work, not the original work. I think I was confused about that. If so there are at least two groups working on yoga for scoliosis.

If any of these guys are lumping reductions in compensatory curves with those for structural curves then it is all nonsense. Talk about throwing yourself a softball. Geez.

Pooka1
12-27-2014, 11:21 AM
I now think the material I posted above is the work of the guy talking about the original work, not the original work. I think I was confused about that. If so there are at least two groups working on yoga for scoliosis.

Nope. It is the author of the study. Why he is singling out lumbar in his comment is a mystery.

Alistair
12-31-2014, 05:17 AM
I was close to say this to muy daughter who has a thoracolumbar (main thoracic) curve.
If it's only for lumbar curves, they would be generating false ilusions in really very much people around the world! It would not be good! How is possible this? It would not be serious really, they are talking about a solution for scoliosis, but how many cases may be with only one lumbar curve?.

It looks to me a nice excuse for Yoga teachers to come up with all sorts of prefabricated arguments about doing this the right way in order not to cause damage, unless of course you take on a one-to-one course with them..
Happy New Year everyone!

Alistair
01-02-2015, 11:19 AM
I don't, for a minute, believe that this move will permanently reduce anyone's curves, but it may be helpful in terms of keeping one out of surgery. I purchased a copy of the publication, and it doesn't really give us a lot more info. I can't post it here, but would be happy to try to answer any questions you might have

Is anyone here high enough in the pecking order to get more info about this study?
Some (qualified) people even go as far as suggesting the study was done on the wrong side, read this for instance http://spiralspine.com/recent-side-plank-research-debunked/.
It would be awful for someone to start trying the pose only to find out it's not the correct way to do it.

Pooka1
01-02-2015, 11:30 AM
The authors should make the article freely available since it is of interest to many. People on the group have written to the authors requesting it and the author gave it to them. Maybe you can do that also. I am sure they are deluged with requests.

I have seen the article. Whatever it costs to buy it is too much. There are problems with it that should have triggered major revisions if it was still to be published.

Alistair
01-02-2015, 11:46 AM
The authors should make the article freely available since it is of interest to many. People on the group have written to the authors requesting it an the author gave it to them. Maybe you can do that also. I am sure they are deluged with requests.

I have seen the article. Whatever it costs to buy it is too much.

If you want to laugh I already wrote to Dr. Fishman, didn't ask for the article of course (although I already made this clear too on this forum in a different thread, that artcile should definitely be made available for free, we are already making huge free publicity to Yoga within this forum), I merely asked for a link or a snapshot of the pose for double curve patients as it's a bit confusing, he came back to me saying that I could have a telephone consultation with him for $150 for 15 minutes. Money drives this world..

Pooka1
01-02-2015, 12:04 PM
If you want to laugh I already wrote to Dr. Fishman, didn't ask for the article of course (although I already made this clear too on this forum in a different thread, that artcile should definitely be made available for free, we are already making huge free publicity to Yoga within this forum), I merely asked for a link or a snapshot of the pose for double curve patients as it's a bit confusing, he came back to me saying that I could have a telephone consultation with him for $150 for 15 minutes. Money drives this world..

I am editing this post after reading what Fishman said on his FB page. He seems to honestly think that a person with a double major needs to get pro help, either from him or someone else. Instead of that maybe he should have broken out the double major cases and showed the trajectories of both curves so people can decide if it is worth the trouble to try the pose holding up the leg.

There are seven poses and the double curve ones have the patient holding their leg up with a piece of cloth or something.

The article you found debunking the study was very good. She found some of the same problems I mentioned. The data selection problem as evidenced by graphing 22 curves.

The main thing is the largest decreases occurred in the degenerative cases which, not coincidentally do not have an anterior overgrowth of the spine. Any decrease in the AIS cases is almost by definition temporary as there is no evidence yoga can arrest and fix the anterior overgrowth driving the curvature. The degenerative cases may avoid surgery if they keep up the PT I assume.

The other thing is if some of the "secondary" curves are compensatory and not structural, showing a reduction in those is just misleading for the sake of it. If they were all structural then the authors should have stated how that was determined.

Pooka1
01-02-2015, 12:05 PM
If you want to laugh I already wrote to Dr. Fishman, didn't ask for the article of course (although I already made this clear too on this forum in a different thread, that artcile should definitely be made available for free, we are already making huge free publicity to Yoga within this forum), I merely asked for a link or a snapshot of the pose for double curve patients as it's a bit confusing, he came back to me saying that I could have a telephone consultation with him for $150 for 15 minutes. Money drives this world..

Ask for the article from him. There are pictures of all 7 variations.

AMom
01-02-2015, 05:16 PM
Pooka1,

I had a meeting scheduled to discuss Fishman's article today so I reviewed it to make sure I could respond promptly and only found the following quote referencing treating a particular portion of the spine: "For 3 to 22 months, we evaluated the effectiveness of regular home practice of a single yoga pose designed to strengthen the convex side of primary thoracolumbar curves." In a previous email conversation, he commented on treating T, TL, and L curves.

"Using paired sample t-tests, the mean change in primary and secondary Cobb angles were compared for all patients." Since he cancelled the meeting at the last minute I can't comment on whether the "secondary" curves documented were primary/ major or compensatory. Though page 19, heading ALL PATIENTS, paragraph 2, gives a hint when it states that the Cobb angle decreased on average from 37.2 to 25.3 degrees (32%)and the secondary curve on average decreased from 38.3 to 29.7 degrees (26%)--it is possible that both types were included.

The band used for double major curves looks like the mesh straps frequently seen in an OT/ PT clinic. I have also seen them use therabands in cases such as this. Anyone can buy either item, though I prefer the mesh straps because it has a loop built-in and is not flexible.

My daughter wants to give it a try for an x-ray period so she timed herself last night and for her first effort was only able to hold the pose 20 sec. lol, I don't think this will add much time to her workout!

We'll let you know the results.

A Mom

AMom
01-04-2015, 03:13 PM
Without some basic detail, this publication appears to be little more than an interesting side note. I had asked basic questions about the idiopathic cases and a few generic questions; none of which were answered. Instead, I received the following reply from the corresponding author.

"Thank you for your persistent interest in out paper.

Unfortunately this is a low-budget study, and we have no one to answer this detailed info at this time.

We are working on another study which will include these patients and others. I will let you know when we are ready to bring it out."

I am not sure how useful the next publication will be without differentiation between idiopathic and degenerative scoliosis; noting male/ female participation; discussion of the r/o process for additional issues in the high number of left primary curves (more than half of the participants); notation of curve placement (T, TL, L) response to treatment; noting whether major/ primary curves were treated differently than compensatory curves (were the results of compensatory cases reported); notation of the particular pose the individual utilized (7 options); whose measurement was utilized in the study (radiologist & orthopedic surgeons or authors); notation regarding trigger to change from asymmetrical to symmetrical side plank pose; how the participants tracked their self-reported data....

Providing data that substantiates change/ no change in the natural history of scoliosis is useful.

This is publication is disappointing.

A Mom

Pooka1
01-04-2015, 04:34 PM
Ah, I doubt you will see that level of detail in any subsequent paper. These guys are not orthopedic surgeons and do not specialize in scoliosis and it shows in the way the article was written and in their comments online.

I am not holding my breath about any improvements in subsequent papers.

jrnyc
01-04-2015, 08:15 PM
my "professional" opinion...at least i think it is as professional
as that publication....
bunch of hooey

jess

Alistair
01-05-2015, 02:01 AM
"Thank you for your persistent interest in out paper.

Unfortunately this is a low-budget study, and we have no one to answer this detailed info at this time.

We are working on another study which will include these patients and others. I will let you know when we are ready to bring it out."

Wow, persistent interest huh? What a poor poor answer. Yep, disappointing indeed. What pisses me off the most is that it's all there black & white and will remain there, people for years to come typing "Yoga+Scoliosis" on Google will find that article on top because it's been of course mentioned in about every single Yoga website all around the world, the guys who did this study (who coincidentally seem to integrate Yoga in their private practices) got what they wanted already, I doubt they'll dig much deeper in this next "study". Giving false hopes is what I hate the most, it's all very appalling, if we can do anything to discredit these kind of publicity stunts we should do it.

Pooka1
01-05-2015, 06:38 AM
The bottom line is there is no evidence anyone avoided surgery by doing the side plank.

In private email with another person, they claimed some people corrected completely and then had to start doing the side plank on the other side to avoid over-correction. My first comment was why aren't any of those cases in the article? My second comment is why the direction at that point wasn't to ease off on the one direction instead of adding the other side. My third comment is maybe over-correction is possible in mild degenerative cases but I don't believe it ever happened in an AIS case with anterior overgrowth. These guys don't seem to appreciate the fundamental differences because they are not orthopedic surgeons.

Alistair
01-05-2015, 11:22 AM
This is a newer article (well from today actually) where it's hinted new studies have been held with 15hrs a week exercises http://www.huffingtonpost.com/loren-fishman-md/very-short-term-practice-_b_6366964.html

Unfortunately I'm just not familiar enough with much of what these people claim to categorically say it's all gibberish, they wrote books about Yoga for arthritis, Yoga for osteophorosis.. it does seem they genuinely believe Yoga is a panacea for everything..

AMom
01-05-2015, 03:23 PM
Alistair,

The woman he speaks of in this publication is part of the "Serial Case Reporting..." study. Via email, he stated her daughter helped her do the yoga and she had a substantial reduction in her curve; when she stopped the yoga, she lost the curve reduction within 5 months (per x-ray). --Not discussed, but of importance is the fact the retrospective study talks about the 25 patients, but it actually reports on 19 patients (12 degenerative scoliosis + 7 idiopathic scoliosis = reporting 19 compliant patients; those who completed the pose 4-7x per week).

Page 1, no subheading, 1 & 2nd paragraphs starts by speaking of adolescent girls, then goes on to talk about girls and women; combining the two groups. The manner in which his blog begins is likely to make many readers believe "Doing Simple Yoga Pose Short-Term Reduces Adolescent Scoliosis Curves By Almost Half," has been studied during adolescence and resulted in answering many of the potential questions. Based on Fishman's emails, he is interested in studying this treatment in adolescents, but so far has only collected antidotal information from families. His 2014 study does not provide enough specific information to comment any further than noting reducing a 6 degree curve to 3 degrees isn't impressive as the "change noted" is less than the accepted +/- 5 degree error/ change rate.

Page 1, Bracing, 1st paragraph, based on the description may be discussing the flexible brace created in Canada, but since he didn't mention the name of "the most popular bracing method" he is discussing, I am unable to say this is a fact.

Page 2, Immediate Encouraging Results, 3rd paragraph, references, "One method found improvement with 15 hours a week of exercises. . .", however it did not site the study by name. The minimal description matches that of the CLEAR method, but as far as I know, their write-up still hasn't been accepted for publication in any journal so he must be talking about something else.

I find this blog concerning.

A Mom

flerc
01-05-2015, 09:25 PM
As never before I want now to have scoliosis.. the same curve of my daughter. Some years ago I wrote to India and they contacted me with a Iyengar Yoga teacher in USA who said me (now I may say it) she reduced her big curve 20º in adulthood. Since then she always recommend me a IY teacher in my country she personally knows very well, but my daughter doesn't like Yoga, she only loves to dance. I hope this teacher in my country accepts to only teach to do this asana to my daughter.. surely she would not have any problem in do it some minutes every day, but anyway I'm afraid.. her physiatrist surely would not agree.. what if her type of curve is not the most indicated for this excercise?.. scoliosis always exceeds me.

LindaRacine
01-05-2015, 10:11 PM
While the study is obviously flawed, I think, if I had a kid, I'd try to convince them to do this one simple exercise every day. It probably doesn't hurt, and it might actually help. The reasons I think most of the other alternative programs are bad are 1) there's no proof that they work, 2) the people who report on these programs make a lot of money from them, and 3) they involve a large investment of time and money. Side planks are free and involve only seconds a day.

Pooka1
01-06-2015, 06:50 AM
While the study is obviously flawed, I think, if I had a kid, I'd try to convince them to do this one simple exercise every day. It probably doesn't hurt, and it might actually help. The reasons I think most of the other alternative programs are bad are 1) there's no proof that they work, 2) the people who report on these programs make a lot of money from them, and 3) they involve a large investment of time and money. Side planks are free and involve only seconds a day.

Do you believe any significant AIS curve was over-corrected to the point of having to do the plank on the other side from a few minutes of PT a day? The degenerative cases are different for known reasons... they aren't fighting bone shape in that case.

These guys sound high at times.

By the way, in that second blurb, they say the curvature comes first and then the rotation. That might be true of degenerative but it isn't true of AIS. This reveals their roots in rehabilitative and pain medicine with adults and exposes their near total lack of experience with kids with AIS. They are not orthopedic surgeons and it shows.

flerc
01-06-2015, 07:55 AM
The woman he speaks of in this publication is part of the "Serial Case Reporting..." study. Via email, he stated her daughter helped her do the yoga and she had a substantial reduction in her curve; when she stopped the yoga, she lost the curve reduction within 5 months (per x-ray). --Not discussed, but of importance is the fact the retrospective study talks about the 25 patients, but it actually reports on 19 patients (12 degenerative scoliosis + 7 idiopathic scoliosis = reporting 19 compliant patients; those who completed the pose 4-7x per week).


That adult woman is a IS or degenerative scoliosis case? If this study was only done in AIS or degenerative adults, I should not have much hope it can work for my daughter, she is an (although very young) adult and of course there are important differences between IS or degenerative adults and AIS cases .

flerc
01-06-2015, 11:10 AM
This Pilates teacher says it was a degeneratice case: 'Idiopathic scoliosis usually has at least two curves and the research shows that seven patients had secondary curves. Meaning that seven patients with “S” curves had idiopathic scoliosis and the last 12 compliant patients with a single “C” curve had degenerative scoliosis... Of the seven people that had idiopathic scoliosis, their curvatures ranged from 6 to 43 degrees in their initial X-ray. '
It's true what she is saying?

fifa
01-06-2015, 11:12 AM
Yeah, I'm going to put on my bull shirt to do my yoga/meditation today. If that side plank changed a curve for the better to any significant extent (permanently), my curve shouldn't have increased as much as it did in the last four years. I practice Kripalu yoga every day and have for years, and while obtaining a really great stretch, the side plank hasn't changed my lumbar curve one bit. Interesting that they didn't have any kind of control group, and also interesting that this guy wants money for everything. In my opinion, this is one of those schemes where someone will sell you his book of money-making secrets for $49.95, and then his book says, "all you have to do is write a book and get someone to buy it."

I think it's a load of carp as far as changing a curve, but as a huge proponent/practitioner of yoga and the healing powers of meditation, what can it hurt? (unless you fall out of the pose onto your face).

Namaste.

Fifa

flerc
01-06-2015, 02:45 PM
Did you do this excercise only with the arm of the convex side? It sounds really very much logic what they says about provoking a null effect when is done in both sides.
Certianly if I may be sure this study is saying the true about reductions measured according standard x-rays procedures, and there was at least just only one adult with idiopathic scoliosis having a big reduction, the absence of control groups would not be a problem for me and I'd encourage my daughter to do it although her physiatrist sure would not agree and there is a risk of harming the shoulder and the arm.

Pooka1
01-06-2015, 05:45 PM
This Pilates teacher says it was a degeneratice case: 'Idiopathic scoliosis usually has at least two curves and the research shows that seven patients had secondary curves. Meaning that seven patients with “S” curves had idiopathic scoliosis and the last 12 compliant patients with a single “C” curve had degenerative scoliosis... Of the seven people that had idiopathic scoliosis, their curvatures ranged from 6 to 43 degrees in their initial X-ray. '
It's true what she is saying?

The most common curve pattern in AIS is right thoracic which is a single curve. This is at least half the cases per that one study Lenke did. The next most common is double major which is two curves. But other than the double major and triple major which is rare, single curves are in the majority when adding thoracic, TL, and lumbar curves.

So I don't know what she is talking about.

I also think these researchers are not distinguishing between structural and compensatory secondary curves. If so then they are cheating.

flerc
01-06-2015, 06:53 PM
I thought the most common was to have at least one compensatory curve, but if is not true, then is possible that woman was an idiopathic case. Certainly is almost impossible for me to imagine a curve starting in adulthood reaching more than 100º!. I need to know if there was idiopathic adults in that study and this debunked article http://spiralspine.com/recent-side-plank-research-debunked/ confuses me too much. I'm trying to find in the Schroth book what she says but I only found some bending exercise like this http://scoliosis3dc.com/yoga-for-scoliosis-use-caution/ but not the side plank exercise! If she is right, someone may say me in what part of the Schroth's book is showing this exercise?

Pooka1
01-06-2015, 07:19 PM
I thought the most common was to have at least one compensatory curve,

Compensatory curves don't count. If is it one structural T curve plus a compensatory L curve (like both my daughters) then it is a ONE CURVE PATTERN as far as I know. One structural L curve plus a compensatory T curve is a ONE CURVE PATTERN. One TL curve plus one or more compensatory curves is a ONE CURVE PATTERN.

Double majors are TWO CURVE PATTERNS because both are structural. Triple majors are THREE CURVE PATTERNS because all three curves are structural.

For example, Thing 1 had a 30 something compensatory curve under her 58* structural curve. The T curve was corrected to <10*. The L curve correctly COMPLETELY without being touched. That's because it was compensatory. Thing 1 had a ONE CURVE PATTERN. If a compensatory curve can correct completely WITHOUT BEING TOUCHED then it means nothing to say yoga improved a compensatory curve. So what? The only think that matters is improving the structural curve in terms of avoiding surgery.

Thing 2 bent out her >40* compensatory L curve to single digits. That's because the L curve was compensatory. She had a ONE CURVE PATTERN despite having a T curve of 57* and an L curve >40*.

Linda will correct me if I'm wrong.

In reporting treatment results, lumping corrections of compensatory curves with corrections to structural curves is just ignorance or deliberately misleading. There is no third option.

flerc
01-06-2015, 08:25 PM
Yes, is more or least what I understand perhaps except because I think a double curve is when 2 curves has similar degrees. It seems it will be ever fuzzy for me what structural means. My daughter has a large main curve (so why I think is a C curve) and other compensatories, but when she is laying down all her vertebras seems to be aligned.
It seems to me this Pilates teacher is saying that the big curves of the study has only (structural or not) ONE curve and that is common in degenerative scoliosis, what sounds logic for me.. good contribution for my confusion..

Pooka1
01-06-2015, 09:13 PM
http://www.scoliosis.org/glossary.php

compensatory curve
In spinal deformity, a secondary curve located above or below the structural curvature, which develops in order to maintain normal body alignment.

structural curve
A segment of the spine that has fixed lateral curvature.

------------

http://espine.com/scoliosis/adolescent-idiopathic-scoliosis/

Structural curves are defined as those curves that incompletely straighten on side-bending. Compensatory curves straighten significantly on side bending and function to produce spinal balance.

-----------

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3566250/

This lead to the development of a new classification system which was presented by Lawrence Lenke in 2001 [7]. In order to define a curve type by the Lenke classification, one must identify the curve type, the lumbar modifier and, for the first time in any classification system for scoliosis, the sagittal profile was also included. A few new definitions were made: (1) Major curve: the curve of greatest magnitude and is always structural. (2) Minor curve: a smaller curve which may be structural or nonstructural. (3) Nonstructural curve: a curve which bends to less than 25° on side bending radiographs.

According to these definitions there are six different curve types (Fig. 2):

Type 1: main thoracic (MT) is the only structural curve while the others (proximal thoracic and lumbar or thoracolumbar) are nonstructural.
Type 2: double thoracic in which the MT is the major curve, the proximal thoracic (PT) is the minor curve but is structural and the thoracolumbar (TL) or lumbar (L) curves are minor and nonstructural.
Type 3: double major curve pattern in which the MT is the major curve and the lumbar is the minor one but is structural whereas the PT is nonstructural.
Type 4: triple major curve pattern when the MT is the major curve but all three curves are structural.
Type 5: the TL or L curve is the major and only structural curve, with the PT and\or MT curves being minor and nonstructural.
Type 6: the TL or L curve is the major curve measuring at least 5° more than the MT which is the minor but structural curve.

flerc
01-06-2015, 10:21 PM
Thanks!

compensatory curve
In spinal deformity, a secondary curve located above or below the structural curvature, which develops in order to maintain normal body alignment.

structural curve
A segment of the spine that has fixed lateral curvature.

------------
It's what I understand

Structural curves are defined as those curves that incompletely straighten on side-bending. Compensatory curves straighten significantly on side bending and function to produce spinal balance.

I don't know what could happen on side bending, but the curve seems to only exists when gravity force is compressing the spine.

What do you believe, the adult of the study with 105º has idiopathic or degenerative scoliosis?

Alistair
01-07-2015, 02:31 AM
If this study was only done in AIS or degenerative adults

I have read the study and it still looks unclear to me whether amongst the patients there definitely were adults with idiopatic scoliosis, changing a bone in a 40+ 50+ adult who has had idiopatic scoliosis since his/her teens surely is a different thing than changing a bone to someone who developed it in adulthood? (assuming a bone can be changed at all, that is).


...Type 5: the TL or L curve is the major and only structural curve, with the PT and\or MT curves being minor and nonstructural...
...compensatory curve
In spinal deformity, a secondary curve located above or below the structural curvature, which develops in order to maintain normal body alignment...
...Structural curves are defined as those curves that incompletely straighten on side-bending. Compensatory curves straighten significantly on side bending and function to produce spinal balance...
...A few new definitions were made: (1) Major curve: the curve of greatest magnitude and is always structural. (2) Minor curve: a smaller curve which may be structural or nonstructural. (3) Nonstructural curve: a curve which bends to less than 25° on side bending radiographs...

I was always told I had left lumbar rotoscoliosis with compensatory thoracic curve http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff29/crowning73/PRE_2013-01-18-123326_zps21f0e5e7.jpg. Reading some of the definitions on this thread it all becomes very confusing, in my case the thoracic curve is not minor in the sense that is roughly the same amount of the lumbar (a bit more than 25°) and although there's no rotation if I had to trust these definitions then I would definitely call it double majour curve.

Pooka1
01-07-2015, 06:50 AM
What do you believe, the adult of the study with 105º has idiopathic or degenerative scoliosis?

That's an interesting question. It is my understanding that degenerative curves are generally smaller than what AIS curves in adults can reach. By that logic, all the larger curves should be AIS and the smaller ones degenerative. But that's not what the paper says. I think there might be a mistake since... wait for it... these guys are NOT orthopedic surgeons. And it shows.

Pooka1
01-07-2015, 07:00 AM
I have read the study and it still looks unclear to me whether amongst the patients there definitely were adults with idiopatic scoliosis, changing a bone in a 40+ 50+ adult who has had idiopatic scoliosis since his/her teens surely is a different thing than changing a bone to someone who developed it in adulthood? (assuming a bone can be changed at all, that is).

I agree it is unclear. Now there are two choices... did they not know they weren't being clear or did they deliberately fuzzy it up?


I was always told I had left lumbar rotoscoliosis with compensatory thoracic curve http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff29/crowning73/PRE_2013-01-18-123326_zps21f0e5e7.jpg. Reading some of the definitions on this thread it all becomes very confusing, in my case the thoracic curve is not minor in the sense that is roughly the same amount of the lumbar (a bit more than 25°) and although there's no rotation if I had to trust these definitions then I would definitely call it double majour curve.

IS requires rotation as far as I know. The rotation is driven by the anterior overgrowth of the spine as far as I know. It must rotate to accommodate that bone mass placement. The rotation drives the curve. Structural curves are rotated and compensatory curves are not. Hysterical curves can be quite large but have no rotation. Therefore they are not IS.

Linda may know this but it is my understanding that generally when two curves are about the same size they are both structural. Using the bending principle though, not only would your compensatory T curve bend out below 25* but so would your structural L curve (because even though it is 25* it would still bend out a little I think). So that rule only applies opt larger curves I bet.

Your radiograph looks like a small double major. I am not clear on how they claim there is only a lumber structural curve unless they could clearly see/measure rotation. Very strange. Maybe Linda knows or can ask a surgeon.

Alistair
01-08-2015, 03:03 AM
Your radiograph looks like a small double major. I am not clear on how they claim there is only a lumber structural curve unless they could clearly see/measure rotation. Very strange. Maybe Linda knows or can ask a surgeon.
Some of the abovementioned definitions contradict themselves I think, and it seems I’m not the only one who has heard different opinions about his “compensatory” curve http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?14741-Compensatory-Curves

Re-reading the bit about the older woman who got 60% reduction from 108 degrees it just makes it all the more confusing about who might benefit from this pose, adolescents with idiopathic scoliosis, adults with degenerative, or adults with idiopathic too… When the doctor tells her "maybe I'm kidding myself, but you actually seem straighter", I mean, come on we would all feel it if we had had a correction of 60% certainly no need for someone else to point it out? Bizarre.

I was just wondering, since they make such a point about asymmetric exercise in order to get correction (BTW I remember when I was a young teenager and was diagnosed with scoliosis they prevented me to play tennis, I loved it so much but there was no arguing about it “asymmetric sports are bad for you” that was the thinking in those years, and to be frank nowadays it’s not much clearer, so many high profile professionals for instance still can’t agree whether swimming is good or bad for us..) why hasn’t anyone before thought of this? I mean, in other sports, for example in the Lou Ferrigno era when gym was at its peak surely someone will have tried asymmetry to strengthen the muscles in scoliotic patients no? You all seem well documented have you ever heard in the past making asymmetry their key point to straighten the spine? Results? Yoga is most definitely useful for stretching and toning muscles but what this pose has that can’t be replicated in other sports I’m not sure.

Another thing I thought, looking any scoliotic person from the back http://www.ajthompson.com.au/images/scoliosis.jpg, his/her muscles on the convex side stand out due to spine compressing them, if this yoga pose doesn’t work this person will end up having these muscles standing out even more, as they’ll definitely develop more as this is a challenging pose to be kept for 45 or 90 seconds for months or years, at my age I can’t be bothered about looks but a teenager might also be interested in developing the concave side in order to have his/her back stand out a bit less. Just a thought.
Not to mention that debunking article where it says the plank should have been done on the concave side, where the muscles are actually shortened and weakened.. http://scoliosistreatmentalternatives.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Scoliosis-Curvature-Muscle-Tone-Imbalance-copy.jpg

Pooka1
01-08-2015, 06:23 AM
Bravo! Excellent points, Alistair.

flerc
01-09-2015, 12:56 AM
Some of the abovementioned definitions contradict themselves I think, and it seems I’m not the only one who has heard different opinions about his “compensatory” curve http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?14741-Compensatory-Curves

Re-reading the bit about the older woman who got 60% reduction from 108 degrees it just makes it all the more confusing about who might benefit from this pose, adolescents with idiopathic scoliosis, adults with degenerative, or adults with idiopathic too… When the doctor tells her "maybe I'm kidding myself, but you actually seem straighter", I mean, come on we would all feel it if we had had a correction of 60% certainly no need for someone else to point it out? Bizarre.

I was just wondering, since they make such a point about asymmetric exercise in order to get correction (BTW I remember when I was a young teenager and was diagnosed with scoliosis they prevented me to play tennis, I loved it so much but there was no arguing about it “asymmetric sports are bad for you” that was the thinking in those years, and to be frank nowadays it’s not much clearer, so many high profile professionals for instance still can’t agree whether swimming is good or bad for us..) why hasn’t anyone before thought of this? I mean, in other sports, for example in the Lou Ferrigno era when gym was at its peak surely someone will have tried asymmetry to strengthen the muscles in scoliotic patients no? You all seem well documented have you ever heard in the past making asymmetry their key point to straighten the spine? Results? Yoga is most definitely useful for stretching and toning muscles but what this pose has that can’t be replicated in other sports I’m not sure.


I think you may find some answers here:



I think it is possible for the muscles to make the curve worse. The problem is that with the complexity of how the muscles act on the spine, it is very difficult to say what movements would potentially increase the curve. This is why I think that symmetrical strengthening is an important component. But ultimately nobody knows. So remember that when someone says to you that strengthening is bad or stretching is bad or anything like that. Nobody knows for sure.

As far as the curve remaining even if your daughter is asleep. This is a pretty good point. But if excess muscle tone is the primary cause of the curve, the static tissues would still adapt. The discs would begin to wedge, the ligaments would begin to stretch. This is just one possible explanation.

I think you've made a good point that many physiotherapy methods focus a lot on the muscle component and not as much on the static tissue components.

Kevin is the only one here with enough knowledge in order to say what the in diapers science of our age may say or not about the scoliosis.

Rereading this old thread, I'm happy to see how this side plank study would be showing (assuming x-rays are real and rights) how much wrong I was thinking that only static tissues as ligaments, joints, bones or fascias (semi-static) could be the only culprits of doing the spine unable to resist the gravity force.
And it was very much surprising for me that paraspinal muscles could be the specific ones, but reading this 'Baxter mentioned Side Plank pose as one of the strengthening poses that he recommended for strengthening the muscles at the front, back, and sides of your body. Shari says the pose strengthens the serratus anterior, the obliques, the latisimus, quadratus the lumborum, the gluteus muscles, the fasciae latae, hamstrings, scapula stabilizers, teres minor and major, and then all the paraspinal muscle stabilizers'
When knowledge is insufficient the solution may be impossible to find through logical constructions.. trial and error is the path.

Pooka1
01-09-2015, 06:34 AM
the spine unable to resist the gravity force.

This idea that anterior overgrowth of bone is due to soft tissue incompetence doesn't seem as plausible to me as the idea of some growth abnormality in either the discs, vertebra, or both in AIS.

If incompetent soft tissue was the cause then why do AIS curves tend to get bigger when the bones are growing incorrectly instead of correctly? Why would soft tissue suddenly become incompetent in the adolescent years even in athletes? The fact that athletes still see their curves worsen in the growth spurt points to a genetically directed vertebra growth anomaly in my opinion.

Even if it is a bone/disc growth abnormality, PT hypothetically might be able to redirect growth but there is very little evidence so far for that. It is hard to overcome bone growth with PT it seems.

jrnyc
01-09-2015, 10:21 AM
i really hope the info on "side planks" for scoli does not hit
a major newspaper...
because then i will wait for someone (who does not have scoliosis)
to ask me what is the big deal about scoli, and why would anyone have surgery, when they can just lay on their side for some exercise
and poof....presto change-o....smaller curves...just that easy.

there are some who do not take scoliosis problems seriously
now, as it is...
just let them get word of "side planks" for tx, and i can not
even imagine how lite weight a problem scoli will seem to some.

it just sounds so darn over simplified...

jess....& Sparky

Alistair
01-09-2015, 10:52 AM
i really hope the info on "side planks" for scoli does not hit
a major newspaper...

It already did, the Wall Street Journal tweeted it and publishded the side plank article, that's probably how it went viral-ish. My problem is not much how seriously people will take scoliosis but giving false hopes, that really enrages me. So little is still known about scoliosis that any Tom Dick or Harry can come up with their "solution" without fear of being named and shamed, it's laughable.

flerc
01-09-2015, 07:45 PM
This idea that anterior overgrowth of bone is due to soft tissue incompetence doesn't seem as plausible to me as the idea of some growth abnormality in either the discs, vertebra, or both in AIS.

If incompetent soft tissue was the cause then why do AIS curves tend to get bigger when the bones are growing incorrectly instead of correctly? Why would soft tissue suddenly become incompetent in the adolescent years even in athletes? The fact that athletes still see their curves worsen in the growth spurt points to a genetically directed vertebra growth anomaly in my opinion.

Even if it is a bone/disc growth abnormality, PT hypothetically might be able to redirect growth but there is very little evidence so far for that. It is hard to overcome bone growth with PT it seems.

As I known the only one known as a fact is the abnormal growth of bones because the curve, leading to the known as scoliosis vicious cycle. I think the first event triggering the begining of the curve may be different in each IS case. But when the curve started, the outcome of forces, gravity downwards and growth force upwards lead to an increase of the curve, surely greater when weaker are the soft tissues and of course if some tissue is tense or short not allowing the spine going upwards, the curve will increase too much.

During growth seems logical to think that if flexibility is enough in order to be sure that nothing is blocking the upward growth and something is done (as bracing) in order to redirect the growth, then curve should to decrease. But if anyway tissues are weak or deformed, the curve surely will increase, because the gravity force would not find enough resistance. So althought affter growth there is only the gravity force and the body is just only in a remodeling process, to know which tissue is not allowing the spine to resist the gravity force is something important not only in adults but also in teens. Someone says are bones, other says ligaments, other fascias, joints.. since science is in diapers, only trial and error as this MD did and specific experiments, may say it.

Pooka1
01-09-2015, 08:09 PM
Emphasis added

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16133084


Eur Spine J. 2005 Nov;14(9):862-73. Epub 2005 Aug 26.
Relative anterior spinal overgrowth in adolescent idiopathic scoliosis--result of disproportionate endochondral-membranous bone growth? Summary of an electronic focus group debate of the IBSE.
Guo X1, Chau WW, Chan YL, Cheng JC, Burwell RG, Dangerfield PH.
Author information
Abstract

There is no generally accepted scientific theory for the etiology of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis (AIS). As part of its mission to widen understanding of scoliosis etiology, the International Federated Body on Scoliosis Etiology (IBSE) introduced the electronic focus group (EFG) as a means of increasing debate on knowledge of important topics. This has been designated as an on-line Delphi discussion. The text for this EFG was written by Professor Jack Cheng and his colleagues who used whole spine magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to re-investigate the relative anterior spinal overgrowth of progressive AIS in a cross-sectional study. The text is drawn from research carried out with his co-workers including measurement of the height of vertebral components anteriorly (vertebral body) and posteriorly (pedicles) in girls with AIS and in normal subjects. The findings confirm previous anatomical studies and support the consensus view that in patients with thoracic AIS there is relatively faster growth of anterior and slower growth of posterior elements of thoracic vertebrae. The disproportionate anteroposterior vertebral size is associated with severity of the scoliotic curves. In interpreting the findings they consider the Roth/Porter hypothesis of uncoupled neuro-osseous growth in the spine but point out that knowledge of normal vertebral growth supports the view that the scoliosis deformity in AIS is related to longitudinal vertebral body growth rather than growth of the canal. In the mechanical mechanism (pathomechanism) they implicitly adopt the concept of primary skeletal change as it affects the sagittal plane of the spine with anterior increments and posterior decrements of vertebral growth and, in the biological mechanism (pathogenesis) propose a novel histogenetic hypothesis of uncoupled endochondral-membranous bone formation. The latter is viewed as part of an 'intrinsic abnormality of skeletal growth in patients with AIS which may be genetic'. The hypothesis that AIS girls have intrinsic anomalies (not abnormalities) of skeletal growth related to curve progression and involving genetic and/or environmental factors acting in early life is not original. While the findings of Professor Cheng and his colleagues have added MRI data to the field of relative anterior spinal overgrowth in AIS their interpretation engenders controversy. Three new hypotheses are proposed to interpret their findings: (1) hypoplasia of articular processes as a risk factor for AIS; (2) selection from the normal population to AIS involves anomalous vertebral morphology and soft tissue factors--this hypothesis may also apply to certain types of secondary scoliosis; and (3) a new method to predict the natural history of AIS curves by evaluating cerebro-spinal fluid (CSF) motion at the cranio-cervical junction. What is not controversial is the need for whole spine MRI research on subjects with non-idiopathic scoliosis.

-------------


J Bone Joint Surg Br. 2003 Sep;85(7):1026-31.
Relative anterior spinal overgrowth in adolescent idiopathic scoliosis. Results of disproportionate endochondral-membranous bone growth.
Guo X1, Chau WW, Chan YL, Cheng JC.
Author information
Abstract

We undertook a comparative study of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) vertebral morphometry of thoracic vertebrae of girls with adolescent idiopathic thoracic scoliosis (AIS) and age and gender-matched normal subjects, in order to investigate abnormal differential growth of the anterior and posterior elements of the thoracic vertebrae in patients with scoliosis. Previous studies have suggested that disproportionate growth of the anterior and posterior columns may contribute to the development of AIS. Whole spine MRI was undertaken on 83 girls with AIS between the age of 12 and 14 years, and Cobb's angles of between 20 degrees and 90 degrees, and 22 age-matched controls. Multiple measurements of each thoracic vertebra were obtained from the best sagittal and axial MRI cuts. Compared with the controls, the scoliotic spines had longer vertebral bodies between T1 and T12 in the anterior column and shorter pedicles with a larger interpedicular distance in the posterior column. The differential growth between the anterior and the posterior elements of each thoracic vertebra in the patients with AIS was significantly different from that in the controls (p < 0.01). There was also a significant positive correlation between the scoliosis severity score and the ratio of differential growth between the anterior and posterior columns for each thoracic vertebra (p < 0.01). Compared with age-matched controls, the longitudinal growth of the vertebral bodies in patients with AIS is disproportionate and faster and mainly occurs by endochondral ossification. In contrast, the circumferential growth by membranous ossification is slower in both the vertebral bodies and pedicles.

http://boneandjoint.org.uk/highwire/filestream/5119/field_highwire_article_pdf/0/1026.full-text.pdf

-----------------------

jrnyc
01-09-2015, 08:48 PM
hi Alistair
you are right, of course, about the false hope thing...
i forgot about that part of it....
when i had Lyme Disease ,before it was better known as it
is now (though the ignorance about length of tx has created
a tremendous controversy about Lyme)
i learned about false hope with a trip to Mexico for a bogus
"cure" recommended by one of top Lyme doctors at the time...
we all learned, including that doctor, that it was bogus...some
of us, the patients, learned it the hard way...

also years ago, an ignorant idiot doctor at "the great" Mt Sinai
Hospital in Manhattan gave us false hope about my mother's
brain tumor...

so i personally take the other extreme now...zero hope..
i am not pushing that on anyone...that is just my own
view point after going thru above mentioned stuff...and more...
not saying it is better than false hope...but to me, it is better....

such a shame that anyone can make scoli sound so easily
fixed....would that it were true...
just knowing how many patients suffer thru surgery should
tell people how serious it is...
i fear the entire plank thing will have people believing "it can be
reversed with exercise, so stop complaining"

jess...and Sparky

flerc
01-09-2015, 11:55 PM
Emphasis added

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16133084



-------------



http://boneandjoint.org.uk/highwire/filestream/5119/field_highwire_article_pdf/0/1026.full-text.pdf

-----------------------
Interesting! If we assume is a causal correlation then at least thoracic curves should not be called idiopathic.. this bone problem would be the cause. I remember I have also read an article concluding about a soft dystonia in every scoliosis case of any type, so a neuromuscular problem would be the cause.
Anyway to know which is the first cause could be useful for kids/teens but difficult to believe the same for adults. The damage is done, the primary cause present in the development of the curve may not be present any more. The gene leading to an abnormal bone growth is not affecting any more the now finished growth, the neuromuscular spasms twisting the spine while it grows may not exists any more, but the curve is already done anyway. So we may say that primary causes are only historical causes in adulthood and of course we are only interested in current causes, that is the conditions allowing or provoking NOW the problem, that is the curve, which could not exist in a flexible spine if tissues could resist the gravity force.

We may believe that the tissue affected during growth is the current culprit in an adult, but who knows. If certainly was a matter of bone growth, probably giving to that bones the normal shape would not reverse the curve, because surely other tissues finished in an abnormal state (shape, lenght, resistance, consistence..) after growth.
But probably improving very much some of this tissues the curve may be reversed significantly or the spine may be enough strong in order to resist the gravity force although having a big curve.
In some sense is what fusion although in a surgical way does. It get super strong undeformable discs

flerc
01-10-2015, 09:42 AM
The degenerative cases are different for known reasons... they aren't fighting bone shape in that case.


An anterior overgrowth may be not the first cause of the curve for them, but since bone remodeling in adults is seeing as a fact, they also should to be fighting against vertebral wedge, which is considered the cause of the scoliosis vicious cycle.
I suppose that wedge in that old adult (how many years should to elapse in order to get such giant curve?) should to be really important, so if it side plank really provoked such fantastic reduction in those degenerative cases (assuming were not IS), is logic to suppose it could be really possible to get a significant reduction in a young adult with IS and a big but not giant curve.

Alistair
01-11-2015, 05:59 AM
I suppose that wedge in that old adult (how many years should to elapse in order to get such giant curve?) should to be really important, so if it side plank really provoked such fantastic reduction in those degenerative cases (assuming were not IS), is logic to suppose it could be really possible to get a significant reduction in a young adult with IS and a big but not giant curve.

Reading the last few posts I must admit I don't know anything about bone anomalies causing my scoliosis, it was never reported on my medical reports and no specialist ever told me about this so I'm not familiar with what you guys have been talking about. Basically if I got it right you are saying that, despite the study mentioning adolescent and older patients, those who (allegedly) got their curve reduction were of two categories: adolescents with IS, and adults with degenerative. This is because in adults with idiopatic there is no way mere physical exercise would be able to fight against curvature AND bone deformity even if bone anomalies are not present anymore in adulthood, is that what you're saying?
I'm now definitely convinced this study was kept on the vague side on purpose, the fact they can't answer to these and other questions as it's a low-budget study is no excuse, or, depending who's side one is, is a great excuse.

flerc
01-11-2015, 09:28 AM
Hi Alistair, certainly I don't understand why could be so important the purpose of this MD, what he really knows about scoliosis and so on. As you said, of course money drives this world and certainly all around medicine is the greatest business of all the times.. have you some idea about how much money implies hospitals, physicians, laboratories, medical devices.. just only back surgeries in USA moves many billons dollars per year! So I don't see nothing wrong if he wants (as everyone) to get money for what he does.. and in fact if we want, we can suspect about every professional geting money for scoliosis work. And certainly, in order to does this trial and error study, no so much scoliosis understanding may be needed and anyway surgeons don't knows enough about what could happens with some specific exercises.. also not physistrists..nobody knows.. and this is far to be the first scoliosis study with incomplete information I see. Fortunately someone is interested in doing such kind of experiments.. is unforgivable for me how nobody used mri in order to know what tissues are affected in adults having some reduction using the Spinecor. So I think we must to congratulates this MD instead of criticize him.

About what you were asking for, the article Pooka1 posted leads to think that the initial cause of scoliosis is a bone growth problem. The development of the curve may be seen as a casual chain, regardless which was the first event, when the curve is initiated (may be because a bone anterior overgrowth, a soft dystonia..), an structural mechanic problem begin, increasing the curve. Researchers talks about the scoliosis vicious cycle focusing only (I believe ther is a more important factor) in the fact that curve provokes impair pressures in both side of the vertebra and because the von Hueter law, the vertebral wedge is formed. So IS vertebras are deformed after growth in IS cases, while in degenerative ones, the curve is initiated in adulthood, so anterior overgrowth should not be present and the VH law has nothing to do because it’s only during growth, but the Wolff law implies a bone remodeling through all the life, and researches recently concludes (as I understand) that the same vertebral wedge would be increase during adulthood because the curve.. something as the same vicious cycle. So in degenerative cases after some years we also should to find vertebral deforming and what may be worse than wedge!
Assuming as a fact all the previous, the conclusion is that if certainly the adults in that study had so incredible reduction (the point we need to be sure about it), then side plank may get significant reductions in IS adults with kind of curve present in that study.
You seems to have a double curve and is not clear what could happens in this case, but certainly I think your curve is too much mild to be worry about scoliosis. Regards

Pooka1
01-11-2015, 11:27 AM
Reading the last few posts I must admit I don't know anything about bone anomalies causing my scoliosis, it was never reported on my medical reports and no specialist ever told me about this so I'm not familiar with what you guys have been talking about.

If you were told you have idiopathic scoliosis then that implies you have a rotation. That rotation is driven by anterior overgrowth as far as I know.


Basically if I got it right you are saying that, despite the study mentioning adolescent and older patients, those who (allegedly) got their curve reduction were of two categories: adolescents with IS, and adults with degenerative. This is because in adults with idiopathic there is no way mere physical exercise would be able to fight against curvature AND bone deformity even if bone anomalies are not present anymore in adulthood, is that what you're saying?
I'm now definitely convinced this study was kept on the vague side on purpose, the fact they can't answer to these and other questions as it's a low-budget study is no excuse, or, depending who's side one is, is a great excuse.

I don't think the adults were clearly and correctly sorted into degenerative versus IS. What confuses me about the study is that the smaller curves were the ones that were labelled AIS but I thought degenerative curves were generally smaller than AIS curves in adults. I think some of the larger curves in adults may have been labeled degenerative and were in fact AIS. I can't figure out from the paper how they classified the patients and if it was done correctly. And the issue with not differentiating between structural and compensatory secondary curves sinks the paper in my opinion if that is the case.

In re money as a motivation, I don't think that is the case here because yoga is out there. I think these guys are motivated by the chance to solve scoliosis. But they need to collaborate with an orthopedic surgeon going forward. They are rehab and pain doctors so the fact that the article is not clear can be expected.

jrnyc
01-12-2015, 04:26 AM
i'm sorry....am i missing something here....?
seriously...
we are to believe that there is an exercise for a "few minutes a day" that could
reduce scoli curve BY 50%....??? (did i read that right....??)
by 50% or 50% of the people who did the exercise....?

'cause i swear i read that it could reduce curves 50%....
if that were REALLY TRUE, RELIABLE, REPLICATED, and people were SHOWN
in before and after pix, followed as their curves reduced....someone would surely SHOUT it out from roof tops...no? Let's SEE the PROOF, folks.

seriously, that would mean that a 50 degree curve would be reduced to 25 degrees....that would be a BIG DEAL....because a 90 degree curve could become 45 degrees...and maybe not need surgery....

there is only one reason, i think, that this is NOT being shouted
from any roof top....or being demonstrated with time lapse photos or some kind of video...
it ain't true, it doesn't work, it is but wishful thinking...
and a way to try to promote yoga...

that is my private opinion....
BUT....i am still shocked that anyone discusses this as if it were
serious.

jess...and Sparky

Pooka1
01-12-2015, 08:46 AM
Jess I don't disagree with anything you say.

My question is about pain in the degerative cases. It is my understanding those curses are usually smaller than AIS and very painful. I would like to know if the degeneration cases who reduced their curves so much also decreased their pain.

The other thing is the corrections were lost if they stopped the yoga. That implies to me that they are recruiting muscles that are not normally used to stand straighter. Spinecor already established that you can get at least an 11 degree correction just standing differently. That also suggests it might not stop progression.

jrnyc
01-12-2015, 01:15 PM
well, i am not so sure keeping "planks" thread going is a help...
and 11 degrees is lovely.....but not the same as 50% of a curve...
cause then i wanna do "planks" and have my 70 degree curve
go down to 35 degrees!!

but did you write "curses" instead of "curves".......????

hmmmmm.....
Freudian slip there....?

WOOF

Alistair
01-12-2015, 02:30 PM
i'm sorry....am i missing something here....?
seriously...
we are to believe that there is an exercise for a "few minutes a day" that could
reduce scoli curve BY 50%....??? (did i read that right....??)
by 50% or 50% of the people who did the exercise....?

'cause i swear i read that it could reduce curves 50%....
if that were REALLY TRUE, RELIABLE, REPLICATED, and people were SHOWN
in before and after pix, followed as their curves reduced....someone would surely SHOUT it out from roof tops...no? Let's SEE the PROOF, folks.

seriously, that would mean that a 50 degree curve would be reduced to 25 degrees....that would be a BIG DEAL....because a 90 degree curve could become 45 degrees...and maybe not need surgery....

there is only one reason, i think, that this is NOT being shouted
from any roof top....or being demonstrated with time lapse photos or some kind of video...
it ain't true, it doesn't work, it is but wishful thinking...
and a way to try to promote yoga...

that is my private opinion....
BUT....i am still shocked that anyone discusses this as if it were
serious.

jess...and Sparky

I agree with any of your statements except maybe I'm not shocked this is being discussed because, as sad and gullible this makes us, some may need something to cling to, also discussing this, or better, discrediting this, will help future people who will Google "yoga+scoliosis" and find that lovely article claiming 50% (yes you read that right;)) reductions. In fact except that debunking article I posted a while ago (and even there they claimed that doing the pose on the other side, concave, might actually work) there are no other places where this study is criticised as far as I know, so maybe we're doing the right thing keeping this thread alive, or maybe I'm just talking rubbish..;p
I just wonder how they did it, I mean get away with these low budget low participants studies, laws should be enforced to prevent publishing studies unless someone can really shout their findings from the rooftops because it actually works.

flerc
01-12-2015, 04:18 PM
Is there no way to know if a study like this is absolutly true or a deliberated fraude? There's no place here to grey zones. They are talking about objective measurements (with enormous differences), not simple conclusions about what could happen or not.
If it's a perfect fraude, is something so simple to do? Why I should to think that? Because I thought as impossible to get a very much significant reduction in a giant curve? What the hell I know in order to be important what I believe or not? WHAT THE HELL KNOWS SOMEONE? If someone really have enough knowledge, tell me please, we have a lot to talk.. I have a lot of questions to do.

Pooka1
01-12-2015, 06:36 PM
well, i am not so sure keeping "planks" thread going is a help...
and 11 degrees is lovely.....but not the same as 50% of a curve...
cause then i wanna do "planks" and have my 70 degree curve
go down to 35 degrees!!

but did you write "curses" instead of "curves".......????

hmmmmm.....
Freudian slip there....?

WOOF

Typo. Wow.

Maybe if they tried they could get an even bigger reduction with just standing differently. But you are right that 11* is not going to move the needle unless you are starting with a 22* curve. Then it's a 50% reduction! The 6* curve that was reduced to 3* (50%) in the plank paper was used in the overall average reduction. Lol.

Pooka1
01-12-2015, 06:44 PM
Is there no way to know if a study like this is absolutly true or a deliberated fraude? There's no place here to grey zones. They are talking about objective measurements (with enormous differences), not simple conclusions about what could happen or not.
If it's a perfect fraude, is something so simple to do? Why I should to think that? Because I thought as impossible to get a very much significant reduction in a giant curve? What the hell I know in order to be important what I believe or not? WHAT THE HELL KNOWS SOMEONE? If someone really have enough knowledge, tell me please, we have a lot to talk.. I have a lot of questions to do.

Those reductions might have been measured correctly. We won't know until someone tries to replicate the study. Only a fraction of very good studies are able to be replicating with the same results and this one doesn't fall into the category of "good" in my opinion. For example there is an obvious problem with the number of trajectories shown not matching the text. There was plenty of data selection which might have disqualified it from publication.

The reductions don't hold if they stop. That means the curves are not being fixed in any sense but held by recruiting certain muscles. Also, there is still no evidence this stops progression because there is no long term even among the people who continue the PT. It might hold curves but we don't know. The issue with degenerative (most of their cases) is pain not curvature though and I don't recall them discussing that but maybe they did.

jrnyc
01-12-2015, 10:39 PM
hey Sharon
so...they are playing with numbers, are they...
you are so right...
50% if your curve is 10 is fantastic...
curve of 20 degrees still great...
get to the big ones...then what....???

pretty ridiculous to do the study with really small curves, like
6 degrees....
let's see them do it with some real curves...not ones under
10 degrees....not the ones that doctors tell most adults are not to worry about

jess

flerc
01-13-2015, 02:31 PM
Those reductions might have been measured correctly. We won't know until someone tries to replicate the study. Only a fraction of very good studies are able to be replicating with the same results and this one doesn't fall into the category of "good" in my opinion. For example there is an obvious problem with the number of trajectories shown not matching the text. There was plenty of data selection which might have disqualified it from publication.


Is there no way really to know it until a new study? It should be possible for some people to access those x-rays.. if it would be a deliberate fraude in order to promote Yoga (something extremely stupid.. what could happen when everyone realize it was a fraude?) those x-rays could clearly show it.. also if it's true.
This is the only point important for me by now. I understand and certainly I may agree in everything else what you are saying , but if those measurements are forged, it has not any sense to talk about nothing of this and if they are right, nothing else may discredit this discovery. They could have not idea about what scoliosis is, nothing about medicine, statistics.. nothing! and the study itself may be unacceptable in every other sense but x-rays will not change for that, so any considerations like those may only support the idea of a fraud but cannot prove it, so we need to be sure about those x-rays and it's something too much important to be waiting for another study..

Pooka1
01-13-2015, 03:20 PM
Is there no way really to know it until a new study? It should be possible for some people to access those x-rays.. if it would be a deliberate fraude in order to promote Yoga (something extremely stupid.. what could happen when everyone realize it was a fraude?) those x-rays could clearly show it.. also if it's true.
This is the only point important for me by now. I understand and certainly I may agree in everything else what you are saying , but if those measurements are forged, it has not any sense to talk about nothing of this and if they are right, nothing else may discredit this discovery. They could have not idea about what scoliosis is, nothing about medicine, statistics.. nothing! and the study itself may be unacceptable in every other sense but x-rays will not change for that, so any considerations like those may only support the idea of a fraud but cannot prove it, so we need to be sure about those x-rays and it's something too much important to be waiting for another study..

No I was unclear.

I think the measurements are probably as good as it gets because although the authors measured them, they made sure they agreed with the orthopedic surgeon or radiologist measurements. I just hope they scrupulously avoided using chiro measurements at all points and didn't lump in chiro measurements with orthopedic surgeon and radiologist measurements.

There is a potential problem if more people did the yoga than are reported because this a retrospective of 25 consecutive cases. They selected a set of 25 consecutive cases on some basis that they don't say what it is. Was this set the ENTIRE set of all people trying the side plank or what is cases 4-29 or was it cases 18-43 or cases 100-125? Maybe it was the set that had the largest reductions. Who knows.

Repeating the study by others would reveal if these particular 25 consecutive cases are unusual in terms of degree of reduction achieved.

AMom
01-13-2015, 05:17 PM
Pooka1,

I believe that they only included those who followed protocols at a certain level, I do not believe they included everyone who was given these instructions. I do wonder if they also included those who were given a group of yoga exercises, I am NOT saying they did that, just that I wondered if they realized that that should not occur. Choosing only those based on results was not mentioned.

A Mom

Pooka1
01-13-2015, 05:33 PM
Pooka1,

I believe that they only included those who followed protocols at a certain level, I do not believe they included everyone who was given these instructions. I do wonder if they also included those who were given a group of yoga exercises, I am NOT saying they did that, just that I wondered if they realized that that should not occur. Choosing only those based on results was not mentioned.

A Mom

Yes the 25 they included in the beginning had 19 compliant and 7 non-compliant. But I am saying that consecutive set of 25 cases might not be the entire set. Maybe 50 is the entire set and they picked the 25 consecutive cases somewhere within that 50 that had the highest reductions.

Alistair
01-14-2015, 10:23 AM
Yes the 25 they included in the beginning had 19 compliant and 7 non-compliant.

That surely makes it 26, no? In the end compliance amongst idiopathic scoliosis was 7 and 12 amongst degenerative.

Pooka1
01-14-2015, 12:11 PM
That surely makes it 26, no? In the end compliance amongst idiopathic scoliosis was 7 and 12 amongst degenerative.

Yes there is something wrong with my numbers. I'll check later.

flerc
01-14-2015, 06:10 PM
Maybe 50 is the entire set and they picked the 25 consecutive cases somewhere within that 50 that had the highest reductions.

If it would be the case, then something would be really bad in this article: http://www.gahmj.com/doi/abs/10.7453/gahmj.2013.064
'Twenty-five patients with idiopathic or degenerative scoliosis and primary curves measuring 6 to 120 degrees by the Cobb method had spinal radiographs and were then taught the side plank pose'.
They are saying twenty-five, if there were 50 patiens, it would be also true what they says about those 25 patients, but obviously they would have said this in a confusing way non acceptable to a summary.

Pooka1
01-14-2015, 06:34 PM
If it would be the case, then something would be really bad in this article: http://www.gahmj.com/doi/abs/10.7453/gahmj.2013.064
'Twenty-five patients with idiopathic or degenerative scoliosis and primary curves measuring 6 to 120 degrees by the Cobb method had spinal radiographs and were then taught the side plank pose'.
They are saying twenty-five, if there were 50 patiens, it would be also true what they says about those 25 patients, but obviously they would have said this in a confusing way non acceptable to a summary.

All cases were chosen retrospectively. So they had the data in hand for the entire set if it was larger than 25. The question is were ONLY and EXACTLY 25 patients imaged and taught the side plank pose? Maybe or maybe not. If not then how did they select which consecutive set of 25 out of the larger set to use? Note this is consecutive cases so any set is probably going to include some non-compliant cases. Maybe this consecutive set of 25 had the least number of non-compliant cases. Who knows.

What follows is my understanding of what they wrote.... in some cases it differs from what they wrote (for example, what is surgical range?). The article was completely unclear on critical factors as AMom alluded to.

12 right curves - most but not all of these are probably T AIS curves.
13 left curves - most of these are probably the degenerative L and TL curves.

Of the 22 trajectories... starting point was:
8 curves in surgical range (>50*)
3 in bracing range (>25* and <40*)
11 less than bracing range (<25*)

25 primary and 7 secondary curves. Therefore they studied 32 curves. Yet Figure 4 mysteriously shows only 22 trajectories.

The 22 trajectories must be all the curves among the 20 compliant cases. So this is mostly primary and some secondary. Some secondary may be compensatory... hard to say.

The largest curves exhibited the most reduction in absolute terms (degrees) in general. I am guessing some of these are the compensatory secondary curves.

flerc
01-14-2015, 09:21 PM
I should to buy the full text.. If were more than 25 participants and in some case were not a significant reduction, then what the conclusion says is definetely wrong: 'Asymmetrically strengthening the convex side of the primary curve with daily practice of the side plank pose held for as long as possible for an average of 6.8 months significantly reduced the angle of primary scoliotic curves.' By default they are referring to the entire set of participants, if not they should to say in how many cases it worked. So what conclusion is saying would not be uncomplete or not enough clear, it would be definitely wrong.
I have never heard before about this scholarly medical journal 'Global Advances in Health and Medicine... is a member of the Committee for Publication Ethics and abides by its Code of Conduct and adheres to its Best Practice Guidelines. Some editors belong to: the Council of Scientific Editors, the World Association of Medical Editors, and the American Association of Medical Writers.' but if they were posting so wrong conclusions, could not be something serious.

Pooka1
01-14-2015, 09:50 PM
Four of the smaller curves INCREASED over time.

About seven of the smaller curves decreased slightly or somewhat.

The largest absolute decreases were among the largest curves. Six of the curves in surgical range were below surgical range post-yoga. Obviously if that were uniform and the reductions held, there would be no more surgery for curvature. There may be surgery for pain. Pain is not addressed.

Table 2 indicates 20 compliant patients yet Table 3 indicates 19 compliant patients. The text indicates 19 compliant patients. Amazing.

Pooka1
01-18-2015, 12:04 PM
If the 22 curves on the figure are from the 19 (or 20) compliant patients then that means there were 10 curves among the 5 or 6 non-compliant patients. I bet most of the non-compliant people had double majors and it was just too difficult to do the thing with the band on your foot at the same time as the plank.

If this is right then the vast majority of compliant patients only had single curves. It may be that this is just not going to be useful for people with double (or triple) curves. That is the second most prevalent curve pattern in AIS. If true then it needs to be mentioned.

jrnyc
01-18-2015, 12:58 PM
oh my goodness...
i tried to read some of this, and my head is spinning...
it reminds me of the infamous math problem...
you know the one that starts something like this....
"if John leaves Newark at 2 pm on Thursday driving
50 miles an hour, and Steve leaves New York at 4 p.m.
on Wednesday driving 60 miles an hour......"

and at that point, 99% of people listening or reading that
problem...STOP reading or listening.... and skip the problem!!

i am not a "math person" and the numbers are starting to make me dizzy...
i gotta think, though...if the "side planks" thing has to be dissected like this...
if the numbers must be examined like this...i am NOT impressed!
because if this were a worthwhile study, it all would be clear, and no
guessing would be needed.
everyone knows good studies need bigger numbers and need to be REPEATED
to prove anything...

jess....
(getting a headache)

Pooka1
01-18-2015, 01:11 PM
LOL Jess!

I agree that the article should have been clearer and presented the material in a more useful fashion. They lump and split in non-optimal ways in my opinion. I think it is because spine orthopedics is not their field.

What I have tried to do is deduce what must or is likely the case from what they did present.

But the bottom line is you are right that this study is too small to conclude much and that it needs to be repeated, preferably by someone like Dr. McIntire who is versed in scoliosis orthopedics.

jrnyc
01-18-2015, 06:28 PM
glad you saw the joke...
i know anything that can help scoli is serious...
but it was just getting a little bit extreme to try to
figure out which patient or how many patients benefited
from what....
not right that any study should require such examination
with a tweezers to try to figure out what was what.

jess...and Sparky
(puppy still healing, and licking the surgical wound the
second the cone comes off for any reason...poor baby)

Alistair
01-19-2015, 12:32 PM
LOL Jess!

I agree that the article should have been clearer and presented the material in a more useful fashion. They lump and split in non-optimal ways in my opinion. I think it is because spine orthopedics is not their field.

What I have tried to do is deduce what must or is likely the case from what they did present.

But the bottom line is you are right that this study is too small to conclude much and that it needs to be repeated, preferably by someone like Dr. McIntire who is versed in scoliosis orthopedics.

Yes it would be nice to see an independently-led study opposed to what looks like a promotional one.

flerc
01-19-2015, 03:59 PM
I continue at the same point really. If the before after x-rays values. are wrong, then inconsistences has no importance as nothing having to do with this, but if they are right, inconsistences also are not important except those leading to think there were more than 25 patients because replication could not seem to be so sure. But anyway would be something fantastic of course even if there were just only one succesful case.. every scoliotic person around the world with a big (specially C) curve should to be aware about this study.

Pooka1
01-19-2015, 04:12 PM
I continue at the same point really. If the before after x-rays values. are wrong, then inconsistences has no importance as nothing having to do with this, but if they are right, inconsistences also are not important except those leading to think there were more than 25 patients because replication could not seem to be so sure. But anyway would be something fantastic of course even if there were just only one succesful case.. every scoliotic person around the world with a big (specially C) curve should to be aware about this study.

The potential problems with the study in my opinion are not the measurements but instances of data selection, and the long term. Some people with large curves were subsurgical after the PT. If that holds then they will have avoided surgery. If they have pain that the PT doesn't help then they might still need surgery. The whole issue of does yoga help with pain is left unaddressed in the article which is fine because that wasn't what they were studying. My understanding is degenerative scoliosis is usually a smallish curve accompanied by a lot of damage and pain.

The bottom line is does this allow some people to avoid surgery in the long run and does it address pain well enough to avoid surgery? This study, if if is is completely perfect in its design and completely correct in its conclusions does not answer either of those questions. There should be a requirement when publishing PT articles that they address what people actually care about... avoiding surgery and pain. This does address curvature and people are concerned about that. But only the largest curves with the largest reductions probably will have a noticeable decrease in curvature to the naked eye. Or not.

Just my opinion.

flerc
01-19-2015, 06:41 PM
Sure a lot of research is needed and certainly , assuming values are right, scoliosis research should to be focused in this point. Exactly which muscles are improved in such fantastic way.. is diificult to believe it could be paraspinal http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/9/S1/O11 tendons or fascias nothing has to do?.. are there an increment in tone or a reduction in lenght or both?.. we have the technology to know what happen when this exercise is done. Anatomy knowledge would have a enormous increment really.
I suppose pain should to decrease with the curve, otherwise, other should to be cause of pain.. I always say to people decided to have surgery because pain, they should to avoid any doubt using for a while a brace (having of course a great reduction in brace) so if pain not changes, curve could not be the cause.

Alistair
01-23-2015, 04:08 PM
While the study is obviously flawed, I think, if I had a kid, I'd try to convince them to do this one simple exercise every day. It probably doesn't hurt, and it might actually help. The reasons I think most of the other alternative programs are bad are 1) there's no proof that they work, 2) the people who report on these programs make a lot of money from them, and 3) they involve a large investment of time and money. Side planks are free and involve only seconds a day.

We've been talking about these planks for a while now and just wondered, despite all our doubts, if anyone is actually doing this? If you are, thoughts so far?

flerc
01-23-2015, 10:20 PM
We've been talking about these planks for a while now and just wondered, despite all our doubts, if anyone is actually doing this? If you are, thoughts so far?

I just wrote in a Facebook scoliosis group, about how much strange is not knowing about nobody in the world doing this exercise.. if there were a study saying about old bald men recovering 50% of their lost hair just only doing an specific kind massage in the scalp, millons of persons around the world would be doing such kind of massage.. scoliosis is strange in every sense..

Pooka1
01-24-2015, 10:04 AM
I just wrote in a Facebook scoliosis group, about how much strange is not knowing about nobody in the world doing this exercise.. if there were a study saying about old bald men recovering 50% of their lost hair just only doing an specific kind massage in the scalp, millons of persons around the world would be doing such kind of massage.. scoliosis is strange in every sense..

Is your daughter doing side planks? Maybe there is your answer. Maybe they aren't doing it and maybe they are and not talking about it.

flerc
01-24-2015, 04:44 PM
If people are doing it, I hope they'll talk about it.
The case of my daughter is too much unusual I think. She is not looking for something for her curve, she trust in her physiatrist and don't want to talk about scoliosis.. specially with me.
I must to be very careful when I propose something, mainly because my wife is always against trying something new, but this time I said her about this study and she commented to my daughter, who did the side plank some seconds but she injured (nothing serious) her wrist. She doesn't like Yoga but she likes to do the bridge which seems to be more dangerous (specially with a big curve) and never nothing wrong happened, but this excercise is really very demanding, so I will not talk again about the side plank for a while. I'm trying to convince a Iyengar Yoga teacher I know to come to my house only to teach this pose to my daughter.. I hope I can.

Alistair
02-02-2015, 11:23 AM
ISICO's (Italian Scientific Spine Institute) official response to this "study" might be of interest:

Serial Case Reporting Yoga for Idiopathic and Degenerative Scoliosis
Dear Editor:
We would like to compliment the authors for this interesting attempt to study the effects of a
specific yoga pose on scoliosis.1 We strongly support research providing good evidence in relation
to conservative scoliosis treatment.2 Nevertheless, we have serious concerns about this paper’s
results and conclusions. It has been considered worldwide by various media as proof of yoga’s
effectiveness but has too many flaws to engender confidence.
Inclusion criteria are not consistent with the literature: (1) Curves that are not scoliosis were
included: by definition, 6 degrees Cobb is not scoliosis,3,4 and we don’t know if Adam test, a crucial
sign to define scoliosis, has been performed.5 This diagnostic flaw completely impairs the content
of the paper. The curve pattern confirms this impression, being half right thoracolumbar, which is
very infrequent in real scoliosis but not in postural imbalance. (2) Adolescent and adult scoliosis are
both included. The former has a high risk of sudden progression, while the latter does not. These
totally different populations are never treated together in scientific papers.3 (3) Idiopathic and
degenerative types of scoliosis are mixed: again, these relate to very different populations.
Degenerative scoliosis is usually lumbar, not thoracolumbar,6 and is much less severe than
idiopathic scoliosis.
Other relevant limitations include the following: (1) The follow-up radiograph schedule is
unclear, ranging from 3 to 22 months, with very short- and medium-term results mixed together.
(2)Due to the progressive trend of adolescent scoliosis, end growth evaluation is needed to evaluate
the effectiveness of treatment. (3) The authors define secondary curves as more severe than primary
ones. This is surprising and contrary to the literature; it is not clear how they were defined. (4)
Noncompliant patients had 0.45% positive results performing the pose 4 times or fewer per week,
whereas compliant patients experienced 40.9% positive results with 5 to 7 repetitions. This is a
striking difference. How was the threshold for compliance defined and was it done a priori or posthoc?
(5) The claim of better quality of life (QoL) with yoga versus bracing is not supported by
existing data. A recent randomized controlled trial7 clearly demonstrated that bracing doesn’t
reduce QoL compared to observation.
Based on these relevant methodological flaws, the authors should be more cautious: yoga
cannot be considered an alternative to any effective treatment3, such as physiotherapeutic scoliosisspecific
exercises (PSSE), bracing, and surgery. The correct conclusion of this paper should have
been that the use of yoga warrants further study and that it is not possible to draw any conclusions
about its effectiveness. Moreover, it should be studied in contrast to PSSE, the standard of care for
scoliosis treatment not requiring bracing.3,8 Today, yoga is considered a generalized physiotherapy
not specific for scoliosis9 as it lacks self-correction, the most important and specific part of
scoliosis rehabilitation.10 Conversely, some yoga poses (like the one studied here) could
significantly increase the generic stabilizing effect of exercises,8 another key point of PSSE.10
Minnella Salvatore, MD, Zaina Fabio, MD, Romano Michele, PT, and Negrini Alessandra, PT,
ISICO (Italian Scientific Spine Institute), Milan, Italy; Negrini Stefano MD, Prof, Department of
Clinical and Experimental Sciences, University of Brescia, Italy, and IRCSS Don Gnocchi
Foundation, Milan
References
1. Fishman L, Groessl E, Sherman K. Serial case reporting yoga for idiopathic and
degenerative scoliosis. Glob Adv Health Med. 2014;3(5):16-21.
2. Negrini S, De Mauroy JC, Grivas TB, et al. Actual evidence in the medical approach to
adolescents with idiopathic scoliosis. Eur J Phys Rehabil Med. 2014 Feb;50(1):87-92.
3. Negrini S1, Aulisa AG, Aulisa L, et al. 2011 SOSORT guidelines: Orthopaedic and
Rehabilitation treatment of idiopathic scoliosis during growth. Scoliosis. 2012;7(1):3.
4. Hresko MT. Clinical practice. Idiopathic scoliosis in adolescents. N Engl J Med. 2013 Feb
28;368(9):834-41.
5. Bunnell, W. P. Selective screening for scoliosis. Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2005;(434):40-5.
6. Aebi M. The adult scoliosis. Eur. Eur Spine J. 2005 Dec;14(10):925-48.
7. Weinstein SL1, Dolan LA, Wright JG, Dobbs MB. Effects of bracing in adolescents with
idiopathic scoliosis. N Engl J Med. 2013;369(16):1512-21.
8. Monticone M1, Ambrosini E, Cazzaniga D, Rocca B, Ferrante S. Active self-correction and
task-oriented exercises reduce spinal deformity and improve quality of life in subjects with mild
adolescent idiopathic scoliosis. Results of a randomised controlled trial. Eur Spine J. 2014
Jun;23(6):1204-14.
9. Bettany-Saltikov J1, Parent E, Romano M, Villagrasa M, Negrini S. Physiotherapeutic
scoliosis-specific exercises for adolescents with idiopathic scoliosis. Eur J Phys Rehabil Med. 2014
Feb;50(1):111-21.
10. Weiss HR1, Negrini S, Hawes MC, et al. Physical exercises in the treatment of idiopathic
scoliosis at risk of brace treatment—SOSORT consensus paper 2005. Scoliosis. 2006 May 11;1:6.

Pooka1
02-02-2015, 08:55 PM
ISICO's (Italian Scientific Spine Institute) official response to this "study" might be of interest:

Serial Case Reporting Yoga for Idiopathic and Degenerative Scoliosis
Dear Editor: (snip)

Alistair, thanks for posting that.

I think at this point it is very clear why the article wasn't published in a journal like Spine.

The authors are not orthopedic surgeons and it shows. In contrast, the ISICO guys ARE orthopedic surgeons. And it shows in their comments.

flerc
02-02-2015, 11:12 PM
Here is what they responded to SEAS http://www.gahmj.com/doi/pdf/10.7453/gahmj.2014.084

flerc
02-02-2015, 11:56 PM
Certainly if SEAS would have something to do with a scientist aproach, they should to be interested in the before after x-rays values and not so much in why was included a 6º case against the scoliosis definition and so on. If they think are right, they should to be working to determine which tissue involved in this exercise is able to fight against the gravity force, something I never saw they did in a scientist way. They seems to be very much interested in trying to emphasize that Yoga is not a scoliosis treatment instead of knowing about this exercise.. why it seems to be doing something that never none of their exercises achieved to do.

Pooka1
02-03-2015, 08:16 AM
The pain doctors did not rigorously separate the structural from the compensatory curves. Co-mingling them on one graph is nonsense FULL STOP. If they did that. It isn't clear. There is some massive confusion about primary and secondary curves demonstrated in the paper. Secondary curves are not larger than primary curves. Also the issue of the largest curves appeared to be the degenerative ones, not the AIS ones which I don't think comports with reality.

flerc
02-03-2015, 09:00 AM
Ok, we may conclude they have not idea about what scoliosis means. And what? Does it turn the Side Plank exercise less efective?

flerc
02-03-2015, 10:47 PM
Thanx Alistar, certainly I arrived to the conclusion that this before after x-rays values should to be really right, otherwise SEAS group would have said something, I understand they critiziced and doubted about everything except this. And I think this conclusion will lead me to go ahead with the 'Side Plank Project'.. nothing simple in my case. I realized some days ago that the therapy my daughter is doing since years ago may be seen as the opposite of strengthener exercises so probably her physiatrist don't agree or the effect of the Side Plank may be lost after those sessions, so probably she should to leave her physiatrist for some months.. something very much hard and difficult to do. But certainly if this exercise worked in those cases, I should to try and run the risks..

rkochis
03-18-2015, 12:54 PM
68 y/o 62 degree thoracic, 48 degree lumbar

I have been doing PT for approx 6 years (Egoscue, SLM yoga, etc). It has changed my posture significantly and I can manage my back pain. (other joints not so much)

I began doing the side planks when I saw this forum posting. It was difficult at first, but now I "almost" look forward to doing them. I usually do them after I hang from a bar for minute to stretch the ligaments and tendons. I still do my other routine as well.

I have noticed a significant change in my other movements since doing the side planks. My range of motion has increased and I can "feel" the asymmetry. As a result I can concentrate more on balancing my structure. Have I changed the curves? I do not know. Next year I will get x-rays to see. Once a week or so, I use a 5 lb dumbbell and go through a complete range of motion from floor to "ceiling" as far back as I can....15 reps.

flerc
03-18-2015, 03:02 PM
Great Rkochis! Finally someone doing this exercise. I think you don't need to wait for x-ray. If your curve were reduced (except other else would have increased), you shoud to be taller. Please continue talking about this proof.

rkochis
03-19-2015, 10:05 AM
I should have added that I "feel" taller..anecdotal at this point but the next time I see primary care I will compare current height with chart. I am not expecting anything significant but even a small amount I would consider an accomplishment. Since the rib hump is/was on right thoracic, can anyone tell me which "side" I should give more effort. In other words, should my left hand be on the ground or my right hand. Presently, I do 35 deep breathes on the right hand and then 35 deep breathes on the left. (right is harder) My goal is to do 60 deep breathes on my both sides. (I started with 5, that's all I could do)

flerc
03-19-2015, 01:28 PM
If you feel taller, probably you are taller.. but of course measurements are needed. The exercise should to be asymetric, is used in Iyengar yoga and (his son) yoga for scoliosis in a symetric way and never achieving so much fantastic reductions.
As I understand, if your main curve is right(seeing your back, the convex side of the curve is in the right side) then your right hand should be on the floor, but really I'm not sure at all..

Alistair
04-13-2015, 08:27 AM
Presently, I do 35 deep breathes on the right hand and then 35 deep breathes on the left.

In that case, according to that controversial study you're definitely doing it wrong, you're only supposed to do it on the convex side.

The side plank should be done daily on one side, only with the convex side of the curve downward, for as long as possible each time

Anyone else practicing this pose or everyone discarted it as unproven nonsense?

flerc
04-14-2015, 11:53 PM
Finally I get someone doing this exercise! A women from Mexico with a 105º congenital curve. She began 2 weeks ago puting her elbow over the floor insted her hand but doing it only twice per week. Anyway she said me that she feel a significative difference, when she is in the water she feel to be activativating some muscles blocked since many years ago.. she is really very much enthusiastic. I hope she can to do it every day.. I said her to meassure her height.

rkochis
04-16-2015, 09:18 AM
Erin Meyers from spiralspine.com has interesting thoughts regarding this exercise.
http://spiralspine.com/recent-side-plank-research-debunked/


She states that right thoracic curve should have the left hand on the floor (concave pointing to the floor) and what she says makes sense.

Since I have a "S" curve, I think doing both sides is best.

I wish I knew for sure. I do not want to make my condition worse. I will continue to do both unless someone can convince me otherwise.

Alistair
04-16-2015, 09:39 AM
Erin Meyers from spiralspine.com has interesting thoughts regarding this exercise.
http://spiralspine.com/recent-side-plank-research-debunked/

She states that right thoracic curve should have the left hand on the floor (concave pointing to the floor) and what she says makes sense.

Since I have a "S" curve, I think doing both sides is best.

I wish I knew for sure. I do not want to make my condition worse. I will continue to do both unless someone can convince me otherwise.

That's nothing new, that and other doubts have been expressed before even in this very thread, you can't expect any of us to convince you otherwise, the study says what it says, but maybe yuo can contact directly the mind behind this controversial study on Facebook, he replied to me..
https://www.facebook.com/LorenFishmanMD

rkochis
04-20-2015, 12:43 PM
Lots of very good stuff regarding scoliosis and side plank.


http://yogaforhealthyaging.blogspot.com/2014/12/friday-q-answers-from-dr-loren-fishman.html

With my "S" curve, i decided to continue with both sides.

Alistair
04-20-2015, 02:18 PM
http://yogaforhealthyaging.blogspot.com/2014/12/friday-q-answers-from-dr-loren-fishman.html

With my "S" curve, i decided to continue with both sides.

Despite that article saying: "Baxter, scoliosis is an asymmetrical condition, and requires an asymmetrical measure to correct it. Doing a little this and a such an little that (sic) just vitiates what one needs to do to get better."?

flerc
05-02-2015, 08:17 PM
As I understand, if your main curve is right(seeing your back, the convex side of the curve is in the right side) then your right hand should be on the floor, but really I'm not sure at all..

Is it right? I have heard that always the convex side of the lumbar curve must face down. What if the main curve is thoracic?

flerc
07-09-2015, 12:47 AM
http://www.gahmj.com/author/Fishman%2C+L+M
ABSTRACT We would like to compliment the authors for this interesting attempt to study the effects of a specific yoga pose on scoliosis.1 We strongly support research providing good evidence in relation to conservative scoliosis treatment.2 Nevertheless, we have serious concerns about this paper's results and conclusions. It has been considered worldwide by various media as proof of yoga's effectiveness but has too many flaws to engender confidence.

What are they suggesting? That before-after x-rays mesurements were wrong?

Pooka1
07-09-2015, 06:59 AM
If I had to guess why they said that it is because the study appears to be reporting decreases in compensatory curves in addition to structural curves which is pure nonsense if true. It's cheating though I am not sure they understand that it is cheating or were trying to cheat. Also it appears they have mixed up degenerative and idiopathic given the relative sizes of curves in each group. These are pain doctors not orthopedic surgeons and it shows.

The other thing is if it lasts. That is, can it really be used to avoid surgery.

The last thing is while it might halt or slow progression, it may do nothing for pain and in fact people in pain may not be able to do it.

Let's see if the rate of surgery drops worldwide from this...

flerc
07-09-2015, 03:29 PM
I think it cannot be possible because ignorance. Is not necessary to be a surgeon,a physician or nothing to understand what curve degrees means and this doctor said that a 120º curve was reduced to 65º. If values would be wrong it should to be an intentional fraude.

I think that GlobalAdvances had to say something like this after what a lot of therapists (seeming to be worried with the idea of what a simple excercise that may be done at home may do) said in these few months. But is not something serious what they are doing, they must to clearly say if x-rays values are right or not! The proofs should to exist yet, they must to check them and tell the true.
I think I will never trust in any controlled study never more.

Supposing that x-rays values are right and people around the world does this exercise every day in the right way in each case during years, is reasonable to think that surgeries must to decrease in some percentaje.
But how many peple is doing this exercise? I almost don't know nobody, I think that everybody is waiting to know a real case with a good outcome before trying it.

Pooka1
07-09-2015, 07:26 PM
a 120º curve was reduced to 65º.

My best guess is these few large decreases were only seen in compensatory curves. I am skeptical that large structural curves can be reduced that much by anything except surgery.

flerc
07-09-2015, 07:37 PM
Ohh! Soryy!!!
I was wrong, they was not GlabalAdvances who said that, they was the SEAS (Scientific Exercises Approach to Scoliosis) group. I prefectly understand why they seems to be so worried with what this study says..

Pooka1
07-09-2015, 07:57 PM
Ohh! Soryy!!!
I was wrong, they was not GlabalAdvances who said that, they was the SEAS (Scientific Exercises Approach to Scoliosis) group. I perfectly understand why they seems to be so worried with what this study says..

"Worried?" Why would they be worried? There is nothing to worry about other than more published research results that are false.

There is nothing magical about this or any yoga pose. People have been trying to use yoga with scoliosis for decades. It makes NO sense that these guys were the first to find a magic yoga pose that works for life. If that existed we would know it by now.

flerc
07-09-2015, 11:39 PM
If I would have a Company developing scoliosis excercises that never get very much important reductions, I would be worry about the future of that Company after reading this study. Of course is an ethic issue to try to debunk it for that reason or not.
The entire abstract, shows they are not saying that x-rays values are wrong, they simply shows the lack of understanding about scoliosis, inconsistences and so on. The only way of course to debunk this study is proving that x-rays value are wrong.
The point is ever the same if those values are wrong it's a fraude and if they are right, the millenary yoga pose used as probably never was used before in scoliotic people can reduce in a very much significant way C curves. There's not any other point, is so simply like that.

Pooka1
07-10-2015, 06:31 AM
The SEAS people, unlike the great run of people in the scoliosis PT field, are medical doctors. They are the good guys. They want a real answer and aren't stealing people's money.

Because they are medical doctors who also do research, they are in a position to criticize PT studies on first principles. You are confusing their legitimate scientific criticism of the yoga study with the crazy idea that they are mad that someone else will solve scoliosis through exercise and they will somehow lose money.

Alistair
07-10-2015, 12:43 PM
By now I think we've wasted too much time and words about this, it's clearly crap and I'm so so angry and disappointed with this, I hope the charlatans involved in this study rot in hell, I really do, giving people false hopes should be punished by law.

Pooka1
07-10-2015, 03:54 PM
By now I think we've wasted too much time and words about this, it's clearly crap and I'm so so angry and disappointed with this, I hope the charlatans involved in this study rot in hell, I really do, giving people false hopes should be punished by law.

I agree. With the amount of yoga types working on this issue, it might be safe to assume yoga isn't a solution.

If it turns out they are reporting reductions in compensatory curves, the paper should be withdrawn FULL STOP.

flerc
07-10-2015, 09:41 PM
By now I think we've wasted too much time and words about this, it's clearly crap and I'm so so angry and disappointed with this, I hope the charlatans involved in this study rot in hell, I really do, giving people false hopes should be punished by law.

It would be right what you says if you could be sure that x-rays values has nothing to do with what the study says, but you can’t. Or do you think that you can? Why? Do you think that you might prove it? I cannot and I wish to do something to be sure
If you would be right, not only this people should be punished. It would be more unacceptable what others did.

flerc
07-10-2015, 10:09 PM
The SEAS people, unlike the great run of people in the scoliosis PT field, are medical doctors. They are the good guys. They want a real answer and aren't stealing people's money.

Because they are medical doctors who also do research, they are in a position to criticize PT studies on first principles. You are confusing their legitimate scientific criticism of the yoga study with the crazy idea that they are mad that someone else will solve scoliosis through exercise and they will somehow lose money.

The crazy idea really is that about good guys and bad guys. There are both kind of guys among medical doctors, also among engeniers, scientists, lawyers, , religious, politicians and every kind of clasification you want to do.
Surely they are more exposed and controlled and must be careful in what they do and they show.

Of course I cannot look inside the brains and souls of these people, I only can infer about what I read. Sure they are not stupids and they may deduce that if x-rays values (of course about main curve) are right, people around the world will be interested in doing the Yoga Side Plank instead of SEAS excercises. Do you not believe the same? If you would have a big C curve and you would be sure that a 120º curve was reduced to 65º, what kind of excercise would you prefer to do?

If they are getting money (or they do it free?) with SEAS just only because they want to help people, they SHOULD WANT to know about the validity of those values. What the hell may matter if the study shows a lack of scoliosis understanding?
They are not stupid, so they know that the only one important issue is to know if those values are right or not! They had the chance to ask that in a direct and distrustful way. That would have been what I would have done because I want to know the true! This would have been a legitimate scientific criticism and not what they did!

flerc
07-10-2015, 10:18 PM
I agree. With the amount of yoga types working on this issue, it might be safe to assume yoga isn't a solution.

Well.. if reductions were as the study said, you may see if you want the ONLY ONE Side Plank as something new not belonging really to Yoga



If it turns out they are reporting reductions in compensatory curves, the paper should be withdrawn FULL STOP.

And of course it would have been a fraud, proving that not all are good guys among medical doctors.

Pooka1
07-10-2015, 10:24 PM
If you would have a big C curve and you would be sure that a 120º curve was reduced to 65º, what kind of excercise would you prefer to do?

No exercise. If I had a large C curve I would assume it was hysterical scoliosis and ask a surgeon to put me under for a little while and wake up with straight back like that one patient Linda mentioned.

Pooka1
07-10-2015, 10:26 PM
And of course it would have been a fraud, proving that not all are good guys among medical doctors.

Never assume fraud when plain old incompetence can explain the result. Review the issues brought up by the ISICO doctors (secondary curve larger than primary curve, mixing degenerative and idiopathic, etc. etc.). These are not orthopedic surgeons and it shows. They are pain doctors. Different specialty. No overlap.

flerc
07-10-2015, 10:28 PM
No exercise. If I had a large C curve I would assume it was hysterical scoliosis and ask a surgeon to put me under for a little while and wake up with straight back like that one patient Linda mentioned.

Did she mentioned a super giant hysterical adult curve??

Pooka1
07-10-2015, 10:30 PM
There were a fair number of people having their kids doing PT. I hope we hear from them. Some are certainly done growing. It would be helpful if they reported back on the results of the PT.

Pooka1
07-10-2015, 10:31 PM
Did she mentioned a super giant hysterical adult curve??

I don't remember how big but it was surgical range.

flerc
07-10-2015, 10:33 PM
Never assume fraud when plain old incompetence can explain the result. Review the issues brought up by the ISICO doctors (secondary curve larger than primary curve, mixing degenerative and idiopathic, etc. etc.). These are not orthopedic surgeons and it shows. They are pain doctors. Different specialty. No overlap.

As I said before nobody need to be a surgeon, even not need to know nothing else than the scoliosis definition to perfectly understand what means a curve, degrees, main and secondary curves.. is not possible any kind of confusion.

flerc
07-10-2015, 10:36 PM
I don't remember how big but it was surgical range.

It was an adult case? I suppose that after many years with a really big curve it should to turn into a structural one.

Pooka1
07-10-2015, 10:50 PM
As I said before nobody need to be a surgeon, even not need to know nothing else than the scoliosis definition to perfectly understand what means a curve, degrees, main and secondary curves.. is not possible any kind of confusion.

Then why did the pain doctors label the larger curve as secondary and the smaller curve as primary? That's something a pain doctor would do that an orthopedic surgeon would never do.

Look at all the other mistakes they made that were pointed out. This paper probably has too many errors and questions to have been published.

Pooka1
07-10-2015, 10:56 PM
It was an adult case? I suppose that after many years with a really big curve it should to turn into a structural one.

Hysterical cases are not structural as far as I know.

We had an adult woman with two compensatory curves and no structural curve. Why didn't hers turn into structural curves?

Pooka1
07-10-2015, 10:58 PM
As I said before nobody need to be a surgeon, even not need to know nothing else than the scoliosis definition to perfectly understand what means a curve, degrees, main and secondary curves.. is not possible any kind of confusion.


The pain doctors included curves smaller than 10* as scoliosis. That is just plain ignorant.

flerc
07-10-2015, 11:18 PM
Hysterical cases are not structural as far as I know.

We had an adult woman with two compensatory curves and no structural curve. Why didn't hers turn into structural curves?

This was the post? http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?12215-Hysterical-Scoliosis-Just-an-FYI
I don't understand how tissues not suffer enough deformity along the time to turns into structural.

flerc
07-10-2015, 11:22 PM
The pain doctors included curves smaller than 10* as scoliosis. That is just plain ignorant.

Yes, it's strictly a definition matter. Reasoning, criteria, has nothing to do in this case.

flerc
07-10-2015, 11:34 PM
Then why did the pain doctors label the larger curve as secondary and the smaller curve as primary? That's something a pain doctor would do that an orthopedic surgeon would never do.

Look at all the other mistakes they made that were pointed out. This paper probably has too many errors and questions to have been published.

It has a lot of mistakes without any doubt, but the study try to shows that this excercise may reduce curves in a very significant way and they are saying that curves of those values (6º..120º) were reduced to almost the half. If the 120º curve had a compensatory one of 30º and after doing the exercise the main curve remains the same and just only the 30º was significant reduced, of course it would be a deliberate hoax. Even I have read he said in other note that the 120º curve was reduced to 65º.

flerc
07-10-2015, 11:56 PM
What happened with the before-after x-rays of the study? They were destroyed? There is not any vestige about what they did?

Pooka1
07-11-2015, 06:12 AM
This was the post? http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?12215-Hysterical-Scoliosis-Just-an-FYI
I don't understand how tissues not suffer enough deformity along the time to turns into structural.

No. That person had one large C curve. They don't develop wedging, the curve disappears if put under, and therefore those cases are not structural.

The person I am talking about had two large curves that looked exactly like a double major structural curve except neither curve was structural. Very strange.

flerc
07-11-2015, 08:43 AM
My daughter has a large C curve (compensatory very small) and it disappears when she is lying down.

Pooka1
07-11-2015, 08:57 AM
My daughter has a large C curve (compensatory very small) and it disappears when she is lying down.

Most structural curves become hard to see when lying down as far as I know.

The large C curves that might be hysterical involve the entire spine as I understand it. If you daughter has another small curve then the main one does not involve the entire spine.

Pooka1
07-11-2015, 12:57 PM
Yes, it's strictly a definition matter. Reasoning, criteria, has nothing to do in this case.

If the authors can't even get the definition of scoliosis right, why do you think there is anything right in the paper? Things just get harder and more complex after you define terms.

flerc
07-11-2015, 01:00 PM
Most structural curves become hard to see when lying down as far as I know.

The large C curves that might be hysterical involve the entire spine as I understand it. If you daughter has another small curve then the main one does not involve the entire spine.

They involve also the neck? I don't believe her curve may not be structural I think her flexibility is because GPR treatment or one sesion with other method or also because laxity, but every surgeon, osteopath. physiatrist.. who saw her back lying down over left shoulder and hip after seen it stand up, could not believe it.

Pooka1
07-11-2015, 01:05 PM
They involve also the neck? I don't believe her curve may not be structural I think her flexibility is because GPR treatment or one sesion with other method or also because laxity, but every surgeon, osteopath. physiatrist.. who saw her back lying down over left shoulder and hip after seen it stand up, could not believe it.

Osteopaths and physiatrists would not believe it because this isn't their field and they would have no way to know what is normal behavior of a structural curve.

Orthopedic surgeons would believe it because it is their field and have training to know what is normal behavior of a structural curve.

Pooka1
07-11-2015, 01:06 PM
Remember, Fishman is a physiatrist and he doesn't seem to know much about scoliosis, not even the definition. Same probably with the physiatrists you are dealing with. Not their training.

flerc
07-11-2015, 01:45 PM
Osteopaths and physiatrists would not believe it because this isn't their field and they would have no way to know what is normal behavior of a structural curve.

Orthopedic surgeons would believe it because it is their field and have training to know what is normal behavior of a structural curve.

It was only a way to say that all of them (also or mainly orthopedic surgeons) were stunned after seeing the reduction in that position.
Osteopaths and physiatrists of course have also the training to know what is normal behavior of a structural curve.

flerc
07-11-2015, 01:46 PM
Remember, Fishman is a physiatrist and he doesn't seem to know much about scoliosis, not even the definition. Same probably with the physiatrists you are dealing with. Not their training.

No, he is not a physiatrist. SEAS people are physiatrists not him.

Pooka1
07-11-2015, 02:16 PM
No, he is not a physiatrist. SEAS people are physiatrists not him.

I stand corrected about ISICO. Though ISICO does have some surgeons, they are mostly doctors of "Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation."

http://en.isico.it/isico/our-doctors

Fishman is in the same field of physical medicine and rehabilitation. http://www.manhattanphysicalmedicine.com/doctors.html

As far as I know, doctors in this field are called physiatrists.

Pooka1
07-11-2015, 02:18 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_medicine_and_rehabilitation

Fishman is a physiatrist, not an orthopedic surgeon and it shows.

flerc
07-11-2015, 07:04 PM
I'm not sure if Physiatry (Fisiatría in Spanish) is the same in your country than in mine. Here they study in the same University than surgeons, even I know some physiatrists teaching Anatomy and Biomechanic in the best Medicine University. Some Physiatrists methods (as GPR or Sohier) are only practiced by them. Is absolutly imposible to find a physiatrist here not knowing about scoliosis. Really I don't know who have the greater knowledge Osteopaths, physiatrists or surgeons. They work in a different way, different objectives, probably it has not sense to ask that.

Pooka1
07-11-2015, 08:24 PM
I'm not sure if Physiatry (Fisiatría in Spanish) is the same in your country than in mine. Here they study in the same University than surgeons, even I know some physiatrists teaching Anatomy and Biomechanic in the best Medicine University. Some Physiatrists methods (as GPR or Sohier) are only practiced by them. Is absolutly imposible to find a physiatrist here not knowing about scoliosis. Really I don't know who have the greater knowledge Osteopaths, physiatrists or surgeons. They work in a different way, different objectives, probably it has not sense to ask that.

Physiatrists can only treat one symptom of scoliosis (pain). Only orthopedic surgeons can treat pain AND progression.

Osteopaths are similar to medical doctors in training but the requirements to get into osteopathy school are less than to get into medical school per a comment I heard on Doctor Radio recently... it was that they had a very talented student working with them from a foreign country who was trying to get into medical school but they were worried her standardized test scores would not be good enough (the language part) and that they didn't want her to have to settle for osteopathy school.

Everyone can pick any doctor they like but I have picked the best qualified for my kids which means medical doctors, not osteopaths.

flerc
07-11-2015, 09:30 PM
Orthopedic surgeons can treat progression only through rigid braces and surgery. Osteopaths and Physiatrists are able to treat not only pain. Certainly Osteopathy seems to be very different in every country, in France for instance I know they are very much recognized. It seems to be very similar to Physiatry but it's not, except the Mezierist ramifications.. A physiatrist said me once that when he began to study Osteopathy, he was close to burn all the medical books he had when he study Physiatry. I see it as something as a paralel western medicine. But anyway my daughter is and was always treated only by a physistrist, a very much recognized one. I'm worried because she is close to not work any more..

flerc
07-11-2015, 09:37 PM
Certainly Osteopathy seems to be very different in every country

In my country and others, only physicians and physiatrists may study Osteophaty.

Pooka1
07-11-2015, 09:40 PM
Osteopaths and Physiatrists are able to treat not only pain.

What else do physiatrists treat in scoliosis besides pain???? Physiatrists are pain doctors.

Osteopaths are like medical doctors but I don't know if they have an orthopedic surgical specialty.

Pooka1
07-11-2015, 09:43 PM
In my country and others, only physicians and physiatrists may study Osteophaty.

In the US as far as I know, there are medical schools which train medical doctors including orthopedic surgeons and physiatrists (rehab doctors).

A parallel track to medical school is school of osteopathy which has the same requirements as medical school to graduate plus some other stuff. It is less competitive than medical school apparently. That may or may not matter to you. It matters to me.

flerc
07-11-2015, 11:02 PM
What else do physiatrists treat in scoliosis besides pain???? Physiatrists are pain doctors.

Osteopaths are like medical doctors but I don't know if they have an orthopedic surgical specialty.

In some countries physiatrists are not pain doctors as probably are in yours, I'm not sure. In Spain I know there are pain doctors and also physiatrists, they are differents disciplines. Certainly physiatry is an 'extension' (1 year more) of Kinesiología (It seems to have not translation to English). It's the scientist study of the human movement using the principles of the physical sciences, and consequently, the study of kinesiology spans multiple disciplines https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinesiolog%C3%ADa
They try to improve movility, flexibility, posture.. of course also to avoid pain which in turn would be against all of that. So in scoliosis is very much that pain what they treat. Schroth I think could be seen as a pysiatrist method, but they are not physiatrists as I know. SEAS probably is a Physiatrist method, I'm not sure.

edouard
07-16-2015, 09:09 AM
Hi everybody,

Let suppose that Yoga pose provide results, it seems to me that it is more adapted to a C shape scoliosis than a S shape ?

Mr Fishman seems to be a generous man that care about scoliosis I think i undertood he wanted to improve the study, may be we can propose him a new study with people from here registered in scoliosis.org for example 20 persons or more during 6 months with X-ray made before and after ? only with adults because if the curve can be corrected in an adult, it will works more easy for a children.
We can ask that project to be funded from people all other the world.

Then a free online course can be done and made available to everybody in case of positive results.
As flerc said, we don't need to be a surgeon to see a curve reduction, we only need x-ray before and after what is missing in the previous study ...

Alistair
07-16-2015, 01:22 PM
It's Mr. Fishman, not fisherman :-)

Ask him and let us know, you can find his profile on FB.

Pooka1
07-16-2015, 02:52 PM
It's Mr. Fishman, not fisherman :-)

Ask him and let us know, you can find his profile on FB.

Actually it's Dr. Fisherman, er, I mean Fishman. :-)

Alistair
07-16-2015, 03:08 PM
I know but I was just skeptical to call him DR. as that study as it is is worth didley squat :-) so I went for a more diplomatic MR. I don't like titles anyway :-)

edouard
07-16-2015, 04:05 PM
It's Mr. Fishman, not fisherman :-)

Ask him and let us know, you can find his profile on FB.

I will but before that who his the representative of scoliosis.org ? i need to know if i can ask on behalf scoliosis.org that is better than me alone

edouard
07-16-2015, 05:17 PM
It's Mr. Fishman, not fisherman :-)

Ask him and let us know, you can find his profile on FB.

Corrected thanks

flerc
07-16-2015, 08:40 PM
Edouard, is really great for me to know someone else really interested in the Side Plank.
After these few months, I think now that the before-after x rays value are right, and the study was done by honest people. But also that effectively it seems that the 120º curve was degenerative. I thought as something impossible really a giant curve arising after growth, but what the hell may I know. Anyway I think that some important IS curve should have been also reduced. I don't believe the curves values could have been something as 6º, 8º, 12º,....30º, 35º, 40º, 120º. Also I don't believe that all IS curves were mild and I hope that at least one was an adult case.
But anyway a fantastic reduction in degenerative giant curve suggest it could be also useful in IS. Certainly just only the existence of such curve imply that not everything is a matter of bones and discs. Fusion only modify those tissues, difficult (but not impossible) to be modified in a non surgical way. That, I think was an argument to think that non surgical treatments cannot reach a significative modification in the structure, but certainly it seems obvious that other tissues has to do, since is supposed that vertebras were not wedged and it cannot be imagined (at least I cannot) that a change only in discs may lead to such extreme curve. Other tissues need to be in a right state in order to keep an aligned spine. And in a degenerative case, improving those other tissues is almost enough at seems to be showed in this study. To see if it would be enough in IS we'd need to enter in other considerations, but it would be clear the power of soft tissues and that they may be altered significatively in a non surgical way.
And certainly I think is not clear if vertebras were nothing wedged.. It's a fact at least in adults rats that vertebras in a curve tail suffer a significant wedge.
So I think that even if it was the only one big adult curve, anyway Side Plank shoud to be useful in adult IS cases.

Alistair
07-18-2015, 05:29 AM
If anyone's interested I have this book in pdf http://www.amazon.com/Yoga-Scoliosis-Marcia-Monroe/dp/1936303027, I still have to give it a go so I can't comment on it, I was looking for something to read in order to understand a bit more about things and to my surprise once I got this book I noticed it was written in collaboration with our dear friend MR. Fishman.. so if anyone's interested to know a bit more about Fishman's reasoning give me your email and I'll send it to you, pdf, 7MB, 273pages.
The Schroth book I temporarily gave up, too messy, too difficult, certainly impossible to understand what's good for my specific scoliosis without the help of a Schroth practitioner, but one tip I read on the book benefited me, not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but since I stopped sleeping on my rib hump I feel less tired and more energetic in the morning, I'm the ever so skeptical but this tip I'm going to stick to until it works, or seems to be working.

flerc
07-19-2015, 12:13 AM
If anyone's interested I have this book in pdf http://www.amazon.com/Yoga-Scoliosis-Marcia-Monroe/dp/1936303027, I still have to give it a go so I can't comment on it, I was looking for something to read in order to understand a bit more about things and to my surprise once I got this book I noticed it was written in collaboration with our dear friend MR. Fishman.. so if anyone's interested to know a bit more about Fishman's reasoning give me your email and I'll send it to you, pdf, 7MB, 273pages.
The Schroth book I temporarily gave up, too messy, too difficult, certainly impossible to understand what's good for my specific scoliosis without the help of a Schroth practitioner, but one tip I read on the book benefited me, not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but since I stopped sleeping on my rib hump I feel less tired and more energetic in the morning, I'm the ever so skeptical but this tip I'm going to stick to until it works, or seems to be working.

Yes, sure Schroth and Iyengar Yoga are really great!

Pooka1
07-19-2015, 06:37 AM
I certainly impossible to understand what's good for my specific scoliosis without the help of a Schroth practitioner,

Schroth practitioners don't have any evidence for what is good for your curve either because the method was invented by a lay person who didn't have any evidence for her claims and won't know how to establish evidence. It is all folk medicine that has acquired a scientific veneer because her grandson was lettered and did try to make it work. He failed. Had her grandson not worked with the method and published about it, I suspect it would have disappeared.

flerc
07-21-2015, 03:12 AM
This is not a Schroth thread (and I don't want to see it closed), so if you want to continue discrediting Schroth method, please do it here

Which is your information source leading you to get such conclusions?
Did you read the Schroth book? Did you followed enough the Weiss' Clinic outcomes?

edouard
07-21-2015, 04:59 PM
Edouard, is really great for me to know someone else really interested in the Side Plank.
After these few months, I think now that the before-after x rays value are right, and the study was done by honest people. But also that effectively it seems that the 120º curve was degenerative. I thought as something impossible really a giant curve arising after growth, but what the hell may I know. Anyway I think that some important IS curve should have been also reduced. I don't believe the curves values could have been something as 6º, 8º, 12º,....30º, 35º, 40º, 120º. Also I don't believe that all IS curves were mild and I hope that at least one was an adult case.
But anyway a fantastic reduction in degenerative giant curve suggest it could be also useful in IS. Certainly just only the existence of such curve imply that not everything is a matter of bones and discs. Fusion only modify those tissues, difficult (but not impossible) to be modified in a non surgical way. That, I think was an argument to think that non surgical treatments cannot reach a significative modification in the structure, but certainly it seems obvious that other tissues has to do, since is supposed that vertebras were not wedged and it cannot be imagined (at least I cannot) that a change only in discs may lead to such extreme curve. Other tissues need to be in a right state in order to keep an aligned spine. And in a degenerative case, improving those other tissues is almost enough at seems to be showed in this study. To see if it would be enough in IS we'd need to enter in other considerations, but it would be clear the power of soft tissues and that they may be altered significatively in a non surgical way.
And certainly I think is not clear if vertebras were nothing wedged.. It's a fact at least in adults rats that vertebras in a curve tail suffer a significant wedge.
So I think that even if it was the only one big adult curve, anyway Side Plank shoud to be useful in adult IS cases.

I am really interested in Side Planks but like everybody questions are does it really works ? and how to do it in our specific case ?
For first question it will be great to have a solid proof study/case with x-ray. The second question is linked to the first, if the first is ok i am quite sure that many people with scoliosis are ok to pay a specialist like mr Fishman to have specific course designed.

I look the book alistair mention about yoga & scoliosis where mr Fishman was involved, at the book introduction :

"About 25 years ago, we were confronted with a frail, older woman with 113 degrees of an idiopathic, rotatory, thoracolumbar scoliosis: a tremendous C-curve."
"We took an x-ray and were astounded by the results. The new scoliosis series showed a curve of 68 degrees!"
3 years after -> "When the progress we were making had slowed down nearly to a standstill, her curve was around 30 degrees. She retained this level of scoliosis for several years."

What to think about that ? of course there is no name or contact to join on that success case, no X-ray, i mean with such result that person should be famous, even most advanced surgery cannot reduce such curve as that. It will be great if he can give us that contact person.

Pooka1
07-21-2015, 06:41 PM
That seems to be a case of hysterical scoliosis based on the description. Not structural.

Also if that 25 year old case was included in Fisman's paper then I think he is cherry-picking and I would like to know if that case was independently measured.

flerc
07-21-2015, 06:48 PM
I am really interested in Side Planks but like everybody questions are does it really works ? and how to do it in our specific case ?
For first question it will be great to have a solid proof study/case with x-ray. The second question is linked to the first, if the first is ok i am quite sure that many people with scoliosis are ok to pay a specialist like mr Fishman to have specific course designed.

I look the book alistair mention about yoga & scoliosis where mr Fishman was involved, at the book introduction :

"About 25 years ago, we were confronted with a frail, older woman with 113 degrees of an idiopathic, rotatory, thoracolumbar scoliosis: a tremendous C-curve."
"We took an x-ray and were astounded by the results. The new scoliosis series showed a curve of 68 degrees!"
3 years after -> "When the progress we were making had slowed down nearly to a standstill, her curve was around 30 degrees. She retained this level of scoliosis for several years."

What to think about that ? of course there is no name or contact to join on that success case, no X-ray, i mean with such result that person should be famous, even most advanced surgery cannot reduce such curve as that. It will be great if he can give us that contact person.

Certainly I have never thought that very much significative reduction were possible in giant curves, mainly in adults but if it would be known what may be and what not, nobody would does studies. That case of th book is even more amazing than the 120º of the study, but if we'd know about the before-after x-rays we should to trust in it. This is a study in a medical journal, so we should to trust in what it says and certainly we may be sure that nobody a priori may prove it's something imposible. In fact, it's obvious that some tissues are fighting against gravity force, otherwise it would happens this also in those few seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-AhnuA0Gqk So if those tissues would be enough resistants, the curve could not increase any more and if it would be remodeled, the curve may decrease.
Is logic to think that the deformed tissues are those fighting against the gravity force. I have read once in a site which are exactly those tissues and why could not be exactly those modified by the Side Plank?

edouard
07-22-2015, 09:03 PM
Who here in fact he's doing the side plank ? will be nice to know

Nothing to be with side plank, I had one thought is that in fact if our rib cage was not able to be deformed, the curve will not be able to progress so much.

I believe new surgery technics will be able to restore the curve progressively like magec rods done in first adult recently. I contacted magec about that but the guy doesn't want to tell me more
regarding more adults target objective they have.

But expandable magnetic rods are the future, look at that patent from Depuy (one of the biggest)

http://www.google.com.ar/patents/US8568457

+ http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US8568457B2/US08568457-20131029-D00001.png

They target many parts in a more clever way than magec including rib cage deformations.

Once the curve is reduced fusion must be done (the first adult with magec will be fused i can confirm that 100% i get the info)
I believe future of (clever) fusion is that http://www.auroraspine.us/ really nice and strong, no screw and fusion success is 100%, clean and quite immediate , aurora told me that today they don't do scoliosis but their patent shows they target it clearly (it is amzing to see how they are afraid to share that, may too much money in that market ...)

But before having a (clever) operation one day, i hope that with something like side plank i can really reduce my curve before.

flerc
07-23-2015, 08:28 AM
Once the curve is reduced fusion must be done (the first adult with magec will be fused i can confirm that 100% i get the info).

May you copy a link about this? It's not what I understand about Magec.

edouard
07-23-2015, 09:38 AM
May you copy a link about this? It's not what I understand about Magec.

Sure flerc, her name is Deirdre McDonnell in Ireland

She did a podcast in todayfm (a national famous radio in ireland) where she explain all that and mention clearly that at the end she will have fusion

http://www.todayfm.com/Deirdre-McDonnellIrelands-First-Bionic-Woman

Podcast link : http://www.todayfm.com/player/podcasts/The_Anton_Savage_Show/The_Anton_Savage_Show/27457/2/Deirdre_McDonnell-Ireland39s_First_Bionic_Woman

flerc
07-23-2015, 02:13 PM
Sorry, I didnt realize you were talking only about adults. I posted this case http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?15324-Non-fusion-surgery-for-adults&highlight=magecs+adults Had she fusion after Magec? Ok, it was the first case in an adult and with a giant curve. The purpose of Magec was to not only delay fusion in kids/teens but also avoid it. Others non fusion techniques seems to be trying with adults too, but as I know, the purpose is to avoid fusion. Certainly if you are decided to have fusion, I think that the best would be to have it as soon as you can.

edouard
07-23-2015, 02:43 PM
Sorry, I didnt realize you were talking only about adults. I posted this case http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?15324-Non-fusion-surgery-for-adults&highlight=magecs+adults Had she fusion after Magec? Ok, it was the first case in an adult and with a giant curve. The purpose of Magec was to not only delay fusion in kids/teens but also avoid it. Others non fusion techniques seems to be trying with adults too, but as I know, the purpose is to avoid fusion. Certainly if you are decided to have fusion, I think that the best would be to have it as soon as you can.

For adult i see it different, the main benefit for magec will be to straight the spine slowly in several months, not to avoid fusion.

Indeed, in the current surgery I can see 3 big issues that i am sure bring many problems after. One of them is that the surgeon will straight your spine in few minuts after putting screw and rods. This is violent for the body, magnetic rods can solve that issue, i don t want my spine to be straight in few minuts.

Other 2 problems are

- Putting lot of screw are quite violent i don t like them so much (implanet startup is solving that http://www.implanet-invest.com/video-jazz-27 )
- In the current fusion technique there is a high failed rate and it cannot after be easily monitored if it was successfull. (aurora spine another startup try to solve that)

In my case luckily i can wait i am pretty confident what i described will come, patents can show you many innovation in advance.

Also today, for economic and demographic reasons because now they are really trying to target adults (not only severe cases) much more than before and also they need to have better solutions to reduce costs.

That s why in the meantime i am interested in side plank for example but it will never replace a clever surgery that solve the 3 big issues i decribed and i hope will come before i will have no choice to get surgery because of pain even if I recognize that current surgery even if for me is not clever have saved many people from pain and in some cases from death.

flerc
07-23-2015, 08:51 PM
I agree with these 3 issues, but I see it mainly as risks and certainly I think there are others risks probably more worrying in a major and extremely invasive surgery as vertebral fusion is. The worst for me is certainty, not risks, even in the most succesful fusion surgeries that may be imagined.. The certainty about irreversibility (at least I never heard the contrary), so the worst for me is fusion itself, a very much important achievement one century ago, but in this one must be seen as something very old as it is and should to be replaced by something less invasive.

It seems to be a fact for adults that when later is taken the worst is the outcome, that's why I recommended you to not lose time with other things as trying to reduce degrees if you would be decided for fusion.. to only gain flexibility would be good for those purposes and probably the same.
I cannot see as something clever a surgery doing fusion, not in these times. If this what you say is the idea that Magec has for adults, it would surprise me very much, because they should to be honest and say it as you are saying and not create false expectatives like in all I have read before. It would be the same that those people talking about minimal invasive spinal surgery because the aproach is less invasive, of course it also has not sense to talk about a minimal invasive fusion surgery.
I know that at least not every people of non fusion techniques are thinking in doing this for adults, if this is the case with Magec, I hope they would be the only one thinking in this.

I don't know if Side Plank or others non surgical methods may be compared with new surgeries, it depends on what we are looking for. If what you want is to straight the spine the most that may be straightened, it has much sense what you say, but if what we wants is life quality, I don't think it could be clear yet, it would be depends mainly in how much effective non surgical methods really are.

edouard
07-24-2015, 11:04 AM
[Removed and put in surgical thread for those like me interested in another way of fusion.]

flerc
07-24-2015, 12:28 PM
As I said you before, for me it has no sense to think in a clever way to do today in this century, something old from others centuries ago as fusion is, the only way to do something clever is to replace it for something according these times. Anyway if you think different, talk about it only in surgical sections please, this thread in this section has nothing to do with it.

edouard
07-24-2015, 06:50 PM
As I said you before, for me it has no sense to think in a clever way to do today in this century, something old from others centuries ago as fusion is, the only way to do something clever is to replace it for something according these times. Anyway if you think different, talk about it only in surgical sections please, this thread in this section has nothing to do with it.

No pb flerc, let's focus again completely on Side Plank, in your case did you start to do it ? What is your scoliosis case exactly and today status ?

flerc
07-24-2015, 07:51 PM
Ok. If I'd have scoliosis, I'd be doing the Side Plank since months ago running every possible risk without any problem, but is my daughter, she has 55º according last x-rays of some months ago. She has a C curve but it's a complex situation, nothing simple for me to convince her, my wife don't want to hear me talking about scoliois.. and certainly I'd want to be more sure about this excercise. It's probably what is happening around the world.. everybody are waiting to know what happens with others..

Pooka1
07-26-2015, 02:17 PM
The purpose of Magec was to not only delay fusion in kids/teens but also avoid it.

This is not true as far as I can tell. It was always just to allow more growth before final fusion. And indeed all the company literature I have seen never claimed it was possible to avoid fusion. The only claim was to avoid the multiple lengthening surgeries. If Magec was able to avoid final fusion then they would have claimed that as that is really the entire game.

Here is an example of Magec being used in a pediatric setting...(emphasis added)

http://childrensnational.org/choose-childrens/conditions-and-treatments/bones-joints-orthopedics/magnetically-controlled-growth-rod


Growing rods have become effective tools for children whose spinal curvature is too significant to control with bracing or casting. The rods—which are surgically attached to the spine above and below the curve and then lengthened during follow-up surgical procedures—allow the spine to continue growing while managing the curve until the child is old enough for spinal fusion.


The problem: Children must bear the physical and psychological burden of undergoing lengthening procedures every six to 12 months until they are skeletally mature enough to have spinal fusion—typically around age 10 for girls and age 12 or 13 for boys.

And finally here is the proof that you and other players in this sandbox have been mistaken about Magec being different than other growing rods in terms of the end game...


Like traditional growing rods, MAGEC is a means, not an end—the system provides a bridge treatment spanning the years between the initial lengthening surgery and spinal fusion.

I am not sure where you and others got the idea that Magec was different from other growing rods in terms of being a means as opposed to an end. I started a thread trying to make this point a while back. To no avail. Imagination is a strong force.

flerc
07-26-2015, 11:56 PM
You know I cannot reply you because then the power here is used against me, so Ok, continue saying me what you want.
And certainly in this thread I'm only interested in the Side Plank. I don't want to see it closed because you.

flerc
07-27-2015, 12:58 AM
I think this exercise is a good approach to the Side Plank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmk5Mvz4pe8
Even if not any force would be done, it should to be good because Wolff's law.

Pooka1
07-27-2015, 07:53 AM
I think this exercise is a good approach to the Side Plank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmk5Mvz4pe8
Even if not any force would be done, it should to be good because Wolff's law.

These are chiros, not doctors...

http://kinetichealth.ca/our-practice/dr-abelson/

Word to the wise.

Pooka1
07-27-2015, 12:28 PM
You know I cannot reply you because then the power here is used against me, so Ok, continue saying me what you want.
And certainly in this thread I'm only interested in the Side Plank. I don't want to see it closed because you.

You are always allowed to respond rationally, Fer. Your choice.

flerc
07-28-2015, 08:04 AM
You are always allowed to respond rationally
Not when I want to show the failings of your posts.

flerc
07-28-2015, 08:19 AM
These are chiros, not doctors...

http://kinetichealth.ca/our-practice/dr-abelson/

Word to the wise.

I think he is not the first proposing this exercise.. probably the first using these big balls but surely also physicians, physiatrists and osteopaths and even researchers would agree the positive side of this exercise taking into account bone remodeling.
Not every good exercises need to came from doctors, Yoga is one counterexample.

theRobot
08-12-2015, 10:23 PM
I'm sad to say I don't have any records of my scoliosis area type and degrees. I have been a little upset with doctors' estimations and so I do not visit them as often as I should regarding my scoliosis. I was diagnosed in middle school but no action was taken. I am 30 now. I have had a total of 3 x-rays of spine to date, spread years apart. I don't have any copies but I want to retrieve them.

I THINK I remember that the angle is 25-30 degrees from my most recent visit. I know the main curve is on my right. I was told there is a compensatory angle.

I personally define the characteristics of my scoliosis in four rather superficial dimensions. First is the unevenness of my right chest compared to my left. My right side is variably more pronounced then my left, while observing laying flat on my back.

Second is the size of the long pronounced curve on the right side of my back, when viewed from the side in a mirror.

Third is the unevenness of my shoulder. The left is variably taller then the right. Last but not least is the day to day pain while doing everyday activities.

So I've been doing regular planks off and on about 4 times a week for a month, up until 4 days ago, when I started doing right side planks and main planks daily. I've been doing side planks 3 sets of 30 seconds, regular planks 5 sets of 20 seconds.

First I have to say that for me personally, I have noticed a decent decrease in the amount of pain and frequency of the more severe instances of back pain. I have never had a truly debilitating pain except for two or so instances that luckily faded without any treatment, but the lesser, daily pain has always been a constant issue with work. I do a lot of bending down, getting in and out of vehicles, and the most seemingly simple and mundane of movements, when done repeatedly, can cause me to really wear out and get sore by the end of the day, while the heavier lifting type things are much less trouble as long as I am able to be upright for the duration of the lifting. So all in all the reduction has been a big positive. However I am CAUTIOUSLY optimistic as this is still a new regimen in my life.

It's hard to say whether I've seen any true results as far as reducing the angles of things. The variations I mentioned earlier seem to vary with or without exercises.

I do have one concern regarding the methodology of this exercise. When I'm doing the side plank, I feel like I can change the configuration of the exercise in very big ways by simply tilting the right side of my chest in a little bit. I feel like the area of muscle that can be worked by the plank is made thicker, or wider, due to the effects of the scoliosis on the muscles, and so there may be a degree of targeting required to really attempt to do this properly. What feels like the natural correct side plank may need a slight adjustment, at least in my case. Of course, I'm no expert on any kind, just going off of feeling. It may be the case that trying to move my chest could make things worse, or maybe not doing it could.

I wonder if any kind of professional has addressed this concept in any way, and if so, I'd be interested in reading about it.

rkochis
08-19-2015, 01:09 PM
Robot
As a 68 yo male with 62 and 48 degree curves that didn't bother me throughout my life except for the rib hump, I hit the wall around 60. So the first thing I would say is that you are doing the right thing. I wish I had started focused exercises at a younger age. At 60 it became hard to play 18 holes of golf (9 hncp) and walk 18 holes. Back aches, soreness, etc.
I went to a couple chiros to no avail. My primary care suggested a thoracic xray and a full body scan. This resulted in me knowing my curves and that my left leg is 3/4 " shorter. I strongly believe this a causal element of my scoliosis and body twist. I currently wear a compensating lift. You should get tested. I made the decision to do a little research and build a program that I could do daily. I have changed it many times over the years but it consists of Egoscue e-cises, SLM Yoga, side planks (doing daily for 3-4 months) and other misc stuff I found. Am I fixed? No way. Do I feel better? Yes. Is my posture better? Yes. Do I still play golf? Not as much and mainly only 9 holes, but my tennis is coming along great.

If you are interested, I would happily share the written and video stuff I have acquired. It would be best to contact me via email rkochis65@gmail.com

BTW, I agree with what you said about the side planks. Since I have an S curve, I do right hand and then left hand for about a minute each every day. I can feel the stretch in the shoulders deeper as I have gained strength.
Randy

flerc
09-04-2015, 01:31 AM
Robot, is great to know about people doing the side plank. If I would have scoliosis I would be doing it and also proving with some variations. Certainly I was thinking to provoke scoliosis in myself with this only one side plank.. I know it not seems to be a good idea although if it works, doing it then in the other side, scoliosis should to be reversed. I would want to prove also with other exercises I think would be the perfect complement.
Here you may talk with some professionals http://spiralspine.com/side-plank-theory-scoliosis/ I think that nobody has enough knowledge to deduce the best way to do it, otherwise, this exercise would have been developed before this study.

Rkochis, do you know that Dr. Fishman recomended other yoga exercise for S curves? (I'm not finding now the link) .. anyway the study seems to have be done only with the side plank, so it seems we don't know about evidence with any other kind of exercise, then is logic to try with it.
Certainly I'm not sure if some important things are really clear. I think there is a discussion about which is the weak side. http://w ww.gaeltec.com/news/article/10002/high-pressures-and-asymmetrical-stresses-in-the-scoliotic-disc-in-the-absence-of-muscle-loading/
The majority of studies have focused on the musculature as the origin of this loading asymmetry. 'Electromyographic measurements have demonstrated differences in muscle activity between the convex and concave sides of the spine. Muscle biopsies additionally find a significantly lower percentage of Type I fibers in the multifidus muscle on the concave side, particularly at the curve apex and also in the superficial muscles above and below the apex.' It seems that the concave is the weakest side, there should not to be any discussion. Anyway I don’t know what muscles are strengthened by this exercise.

I think I have not much imagination, otherwise I should have to imagine that an exercise like this, should to be good. Gravity force (seen in a plane) applied to a curve may be descomposed as 2 forces: one vertical and the other horizontal. The first pulling down the trunk, is supported by hips which in turn are supported by legs (including feet). But what is resisting that horizontal force, absent in a normal spine?. It seems to be a fact that a certain exercise provide a very much significant strength, only to do that certain exercise, not other activity. If you swim all the day, you would have a strong body to swim but not to run. Side Plank clearly activates muscles toward the opposite direction of that horizontal force, so it would be the exercise needed to fight against that force.

I thought that having heavy weight over the shoulders would be good to resist gravity force, but it only would be good to resists in a direct way the vertical, not the horizontal force (of course the worst) as Side Plank seems to do.
Certainly we have a 3 dimensional body so muscles fighting against rotation also would need to be activated.. probably Side Plank also activate them.. if not, Torso Rotation Machine could be an option.. who knows?