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boogaloo
06-18-2014, 07:19 PM
Hy guys, let me first introduce myself. I'm 21 years old male with idiopathic scoliosis, 37° lumbar(L4-T12) and 40° thoracic(T12-T5). Haven't had any pain in my back ever in my life, just some discomfort from deformity and strange feeling at the end of the day, feels like muscles get tired and can't really keep my spine upright. Damn gravity :D Sooo...my main worry now is my future, and stability or instability of my scoliosis. If I would remain like this all my life, i would't even think about surgery, at least not now with today's surgery techniques. I also hope that I will endure 20-30 more years and by then the surgical techniques will evolve enough and there will be more secure outcomes of these procedures. Enough of these...let's get to the point.
I would be gratefull if KevinMc could participate in the discussion because he is working in this territory.
My logical understanding makes me think that proper excercises could be beneficial in term of stabilizing the spine and avoiding progression at least in mature spine and moderate curves around 50°. I can only think of gravity being a problem in mature spine and reason for progression. Also, bone remodeling is possible and it surely happens with the curve progression after maturity, so if it can go one way, it must be possible to go another way also(in theory,it is more complicated in real world), or at least stay as it is.
This is my idea, and i tried to do it, and it feels sooo good- with side shift you can correct curves in frontal plane, with Schroth breathing you can derotare your thoracic spine and you also pay attention to your saggital profile. And do these all at the same time so you get 3D correction.
What interests me, and I think Kevin can help here, is which muscles are surrounding the spine and which muscles have the greatest impact on spine stability.
My idea is to incorporate 3D correction with some kind of strenghtening excercises, so that the muscles and in part ligaments "remember" what is their right position. Something like this: sit in torso rotation machine, put some kind of lift under my left buttock to reduce left lumbar curve, shift my torso to reduce thoracic curve, take deep breath in my thoracic concave side and upper part of lungs to derotate and lenghten my spine and then perform one repetition of torso rotation, back in starting position and all of these steps again until you aren't comfortable with doing another repetition, increase wight over time to boost your strenght and encurance. And also make couple of other excercises on the same scheme like this. I'm also interested in Alexander technique but that is another story... It would be great to hear from other people what they think about this and maybe give their own ideas for discussion.

PS: I know that researches conducted by the medical comunity say that PT does not have any influence on curve natural history but I think that these researces were not done correctly and are missleading, you have to know that your patients are really doing their excercises. Torso rotation research from dr. McIntire shows promise although it is done on relatively small number of patients. If I knew about this back then, this would be my first option in my treatment.
Really good research haven't even been done for brace effectiveness, and it is funny to even talk about PT research. This is just a discussion from lay people so don't get this too serious and please don't write "where is the evidence for this or that". Looking forward to hear some opinions :)

Nim
06-19-2014, 10:59 AM
I agree .....there are some small studies out there...keep searching and you will find them. But, the most important to me, is my own daughter's experience so far. She had started working on a torso rotation machine at a gym close to our home, and felt it was helping her be "straighter". The gym closed, and we are now scrambling to find a Med X torso rotation machine, as it locks in the pelvic area. She is now starting to be in pain, as she has not used the machine since the closing of the gym 3 weeks ago. We do know of another gym with a Med x TR machine, but it is about an hour and a half away from us and the ride is not a pleasant one....lots of heavy semi trailer truck traffic and it can turn into over 2 hours each way with traffic, so I have been trying to source a TR closer to us. She is 19, and the fact that she is willing and eager, and now demanding we travel to Philly to use this machine is proof enough for me the TR has helped her!

And yes, bones can and do move. At least, that is what my orthodontist told me. I think that's why braces work, even in adults.

jrnyc
06-19-2014, 11:17 AM
bones in the jaw and bones in the body are different
and work differently....
i am having extensive dental implant work done....with bone
grafting....
i discussed scoliosis with my periodontist and implant specialists.

i think the title of this thread is very misleading

jess...and Sparky

boogaloo
06-19-2014, 12:20 PM
Hy Nim, I am glad to hear that TR is helping your daughter with her pain. May I ask which degree of curve and location of the curve does she have?
Hy Jess, I am sorry if title sounds a bit like SF, I didn't meant to sound like that. I don't speak english very well so I couldn't find better words for it. If it is so missleading I would be gratefull if moderators could change it. At the end of post I wrote that it is just some toughts of lay people and don't take these words too seriously. I read forum a lot for the past year and I know that you are in tough situation and am really sorry for you, hope that you will find some relief for yourself in conservative methods or surgicaly. Worst thing for us is to believe we can't do anything to improve our condition, and we get that impression from medical comunity. Wish you all the best, hugs to Sparky :)
I find myself feeling much better mentally and phisycaly when I am being active and excercising. Our bodies are made to move, to lift, to be phisicaly active, not to sit in front of TV and computer all day. I had periods where i would sink in depression because of my condition and that mental state is very terifying and certeanly is not good. Now I find my scoliosis inspirative and it keeps me moving forward, I want to make my body function the best it can with this condition, I want to make my body strong and resistant. I think that all of us scolis have that feeling that in part it is our fault that we are here where we are now, so do something today so you don't regret tommorow.
If someone has some kind of their own regimen of excercises which makes them feel better and improves their pain, it would be great to hear that :)
And yes, dr. McIntire, chime in!

leahdragonfly
06-19-2014, 02:41 PM
One member here successfully purchased a used/good condition MedX torsion rotation machine from Craigslist for something like $150. Maybe you could find one for your daughter that way. Also some exercise machine stores sell used/reconditioned exercise machines…just a suggestion.

Best regards,

jrnyc
06-19-2014, 03:33 PM
thanks for the kind words, boogaloo...

i wish anyone and everyone with scoliosis the best....
and anything that can help people feel better is great....
what i meant about misleading is that the title makes it
sound as if PT is an alternative treatment for scoliosis...
reducing curves is a monumental task....
if curves could be changed easily, no one would ever
opt for surgery.

Sparky sends you woofs...
jess

Nim
06-19-2014, 11:10 PM
I don't think the title is misleading. People DO use physical therapy and/or exercise as a treatment for their scoliosis. As of this date, my daughter is using it as a treatment for her scoliosis.....whether she continues remains to be seen. One of the main problems with PT and exercises is patient compliance. People start it, start to feel better, and then stop or do not do it that often. For many people sticking to an exercise program is very difficult, same way eating healthy and exercising is very difficult for some people that need to lose weight.

And also, I think for people that DO stick to PT/exercise for their scoliosis because they find that it has helped them and for whatever reason their scoliosis did not progress enough to warrant surgery, well.......You just don't hear about those people.....They continue living with their scoliosis and continue doing their exercise or PT routine, and we don't really know if it is the exercise/PT they have been doing or was their scoliosis just not going to progress any farther even if they had done nothing. They probably do not even talk about it. They have scoliosis, they found something they feel has kept it from progressing and keeps them strong, and that's the end of the story, so we're not going to hear from these people. They're living their life, not lurking or reading on scoliosis forums.

boogaloo
06-20-2014, 06:04 AM
Nim I completely agree with all you said. And then I usually see comments like: if correction or stabilization of scoliosis is PT dependant, will you do these excercises for the rest of your life every day. For sake of god YES! If I need to do half an hour of excercises every day to avoid fusion and all possible complications and possible further surgeries than my answer is clear. To ask that kind of question is completely ridiculous, a lot of people with straight spines are excercising every day for their general health.
I must say this, and I am sorry if someone finds himself offended. Reason why I had some depression periods and felt bad is in part this forum. Some people here just keep telling that there is no proof for this or there is no proof for that. Where is the proof that God exists? Some things are a matter of belief and logical thinking. They talk about "cutting loses", like it is better to fuse earlier to save levels even if curve is not in surgical range and is not progressing at the moment.
They keep posting cases where people under 40° or even less progress to surgical range. Sometimes it happens but it is rare, like you get smashed by speeding car. And no one posted a case of TwistedLifter who has 70° curve and his curve is stable and that is way beyond 50° mark. You read the posts, and all you can read is about people who had scoliosis like teenagers and progressed to surgery, some of them had revision surgeries and further problems. That is the problem because you get the impression that it is the rule for us in the "grey area". And then you think you are going to progress, and I think mind plays a huge role in all medical problems.
And the thruth is, people who don't have problems with their scoliosis or don't progress are not reading or posting on forums. And I think that moderators should state this LOUDLY, especialy Linda who is working in this field and has a lot of experience. This forum is supportive for those who are on the surgical road, but it is deffinitely not supportive for PT road because there is no "evidence". And people who are willing to do PT loose their hope by reading forum.
Medicine couldn't explain a lot of things and certeanly doesn't want to find cures for some illnesses, big money is in the game you know.

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner
Think about it.

boogaloo
06-20-2014, 09:55 AM
And message to all of us scolis, who are not in tramendous pain or too much limited. Excercise, ride a bike, swim, walk, spend your free time in nature, just stay active. Try to excercise an hour a day for two months and you will find yourself feeling much better about yourself, you will become aware of what your body is capable to do, you will soon forget about your limitations. Don't worry too much, future is unpredictable, who knows what is coming down the road. Even if we do require surgery one day, your body will be ready for that stress and it could make all the difference in the world. Like TitaniumEd said, don't let the scoliosis leads your life, make it be just a small icon on the desktop. I am saying all this because I want to encourage people and I know how much "pain" can cause our bad mental state and negative attitude.
Wish all the best to all of you guys! :)

flerc
06-20-2014, 02:26 PM
Hy guys, let me first introduce myself. I'm 21 years old male with idiopathic scoliosis, 37° lumbar(L4-T12) and 40° thoracic(T12-T5). Haven't had any pain in my back ever in my life, just some discomfort from deformity and strange feeling at the end of the day, feels like muscles get tired and can't really keep my spine upright. Damn gravity :D Sooo...my main worry now is my future, and stability or instability of my scoliosis. If I would remain like this all my life, i would't even think about surgery, at least not now with today's surgery techniques. I also hope that I will endure 20-30 more years and by then the surgical techniques will evolve enough and there will be more secure outcomes of these procedures. Enough of these...let's get to the point.
I would be gratefull if KevinMc could participate in the discussion because he is working in this territory.
My logical understanding makes me think that proper excercises could be beneficial in term of stabilizing the spine and avoiding progression at least in mature spine and moderate curves around 50°. I can only think of gravity being a problem in mature spine and reason for progression. Also, bone remodeling is possible and it surely happens with the curve progression after maturity, so if it can go one way, it must be possible to go another way also(in theory,it is more complicated in real world), or at least stay as it is.
This is my idea, and i tried to do it, and it feels sooo good- with side shift you can correct curves in frontal plane, with Schroth breathing you can derotare your thoracic spine and you also pay attention to your saggital profile. And do these all at the same time so you get 3D correction.
What interests me, and I think Kevin can help here, is which muscles are surrounding the spine and which muscles have the greatest impact on spine stability.
My idea is to incorporate 3D correction with some kind of strenghtening excercises, so that the muscles and in part ligaments "remember" what is their right position. Something like this: sit in torso rotation machine, put some kind of lift under my left buttock to reduce left lumbar curve, shift my torso to reduce thoracic curve, take deep breath in my thoracic concave side and upper part of lungs to derotate and lenghten my spine and then perform one repetition of torso rotation, back in starting position and all of these steps again until you aren't comfortable with doing another repetition, increase wight over time to boost your strenght and encurance. And also make couple of other excercises on the same scheme like this. I'm also interested in Alexander technique but that is another story... It would be great to hear from other people what they think about this and maybe give their own ideas for discussion.

PS: I know that researches conducted by the medical comunity say that PT does not have any influence on curve natural history but I think that these researces were not done correctly and are missleading, you have to know that your patients are really doing their excercises. Torso rotation research from dr. McIntire shows promise although it is done on relatively small number of patients. If I knew about this back then, this would be my first option in my treatment.
Really good research haven't even been done for brace effectiveness, and it is funny to even talk about PT research. This is just a discussion from lay people so don't get this too serious and please don't write "where is the evidence for this or that". Looking forward to hear some opinions :)

Boogaloo, it's really a nice surprise to find here someone thinking in this way.. we have a lot to talk.

flerc
06-20-2014, 03:16 PM
I don't think the title is misleading. People DO use physical therapy and/or exercise as a treatment for their scoliosis. As of this date, my daughter is using it as a treatment for her scoliosis.....whether she continues remains to be seen. One of the main problems with PT and exercises is patient compliance. People start it, start to feel better, and then stop or do not do it that often. For many people sticking to an exercise program is very difficult, same way eating healthy and exercising is very difficult for some people that need to lose weight.

And also, I think for people that DO stick to PT/exercise for their scoliosis because they find that it has helped them and for whatever reason their scoliosis did not progress enough to warrant surgery, well.......You just don't hear about those people.....They continue living with their scoliosis and continue doing their exercise or PT routine, and we don't really know if it is the exercise/PT they have been doing or was their scoliosis just not going to progress any farther even if they had done nothing. They probably do not even talk about it. They have scoliosis, they found something they feel has kept it from progressing and keeps them strong, and that's the end of the story, so we're not going to hear from these people. They're living their life, not lurking or reading on scoliosis forums.

EXACTLY! I know really many cases just only in my country.

flerc
06-20-2014, 11:51 PM
Boogaloo, did you see this? http://www.uvm.edu/~istokes/pdfs/JSPD24.pdf
Exercises has very much to do with this concept!

mariaf
06-21-2014, 09:20 AM
And message to all of us scolis, who are not in tramendous pain or too much limited. Excercise, ride a bike, swim, walk, spend your free time in nature, just stay active. Try to excercise an hour a day for two months and you will find yourself feeling much better about yourself, you will become aware of what your body is capable to do, you will soon forget about your limitations. Don't worry too much, future is unpredictable, who knows what is coming down the road. Even if we do require surgery one day, your body will be ready for that stress and it could make all the difference in the world. Like TitaniumEd said, don't let the scoliosis leads your life, make it be just a small icon on the desktop. I am saying all this because I want to encourage people and I know how much "pain" can cause our bad mental state and negative attitude.
Wish all the best to all of you guys! :)

Excellent advice - and much of it (maintaining a positive mental state, not allowing a single challenge to overtake your life, doing things that make you feel good about yourself) can be applied not only to scoliosis but to life in general!!

Pooka1
06-21-2014, 10:42 AM
My concern with conservative treatments like bracing and PT is that if the child (or adult for that matter) doesn't comply 100% for 100% of the time, if they do eventually need surgery they might blame themselves for "failing" when the treatment itself might have failed them had they been 100% compliant. It's one thing to stay positive. But it is another thing, especially with a child, to browbeat them with the threat of surgery if they don't comply. And then the kid is completely around the bend if they do need surgery because they have been spooked against it by people they trust. Surgery must be the worst thing in the world if their parents were constantly browbeating them against it. That makes it more harrowing than it is.

The problem is not parents staying positive for their kids. I think the problem is parents being too positive beyond what the evidence warrants.

flerc
06-21-2014, 03:21 PM
They have scoliosis, they found something they feel has kept it from progressing and keeps them strong, and that's the end of the story, so we're not going to hear from these people. They're living their life, not lurking or reading on scoliosis forums.

This is the evidence we need to know.. there is not something as a giant Data Base where we can see all the cases around the world.. we must to look for them in the real world!

flerc
06-21-2014, 03:53 PM
And yes, bones can and do move. At least, that is what my orthodontist told me. I think that's why braces work, even in adults.

They also can grow! External fixator are used to lengthen leg bones in very short height adult people.

mashkine
06-21-2014, 05:55 PM
Hi Boogaloo, I think you are on the right track, in fact, I wish I was thinking this way whey I was 21 and not having problems. My curvature was slightly bigger than yours at that age and then progressed in the next decade, pain really hit at 30. I'm now exercising to correct with a combination of Schroth breathing, strength work, spine correction and even some ballet :). I'm very pleased with the progress, but wish I had started much earlier. I'm not sure Kevin comes on here much these days, but there is a lot of great science out there on bone remodeling and muscle weakness to address specific to scoliosis. Also I recommend the yellow Schroth book written by Katarina Schroth, it has a lot of interesting research in it.
Anyway, I just wanted to encourage you on your path. Exercise does work, and in your case most doctors would not operate anyway, so why not hit it now instead of 'waiting and seeing' your curves get worse.

mashkine
06-21-2014, 05:58 PM
Sorry, mistyped on that Schroth book - it's written by Christa Lehnert-Schroth, daughter of Katarina

flerc
06-21-2014, 08:26 PM
there is a lot of great science out there on bone remodeling and muscle weakness to address specific to scoliosis.

May you copy some links? I have only find about braces in order to remodeling bones and I dont' know what muscles should to be strengthened in order to resist the gravity force.

flerc
06-21-2014, 08:46 PM
In fact I'm not sure if muscles can do it or they only can move the bones


Kevin, I'm asking again about this point because I heard that probably only ligaments holds the spine in a static way, that is, if all the muscles would be cutted in a cadaver with scoliosis, sitting against the wall , the curve would not increase nothing, but if ligaments would be cutted it would collapse. Others said me that this experiment was done (probably not with scoliosis) and that was what happened. Do you know if it is true?

flerc
06-21-2014, 08:54 PM
If it would be true, we should to find the way to strengthening ligaments. Do you know which exercises may do this? In that thread Kevin said me what should to be taken into account, but my imagination seems to be short. He also talked about bone remodeling.. I miss him.

flerc
06-21-2014, 09:12 PM
I'm rereading that thread and it seems that Kevin replied muy muscular question..
mm.. only ligaments? they had cut muscles? I believe that muscles in a static way also would help, in the same way as ligaments.

springchicken
06-21-2014, 10:45 PM
If it would be true, we should to find the way to strengthening ligaments. Do you know which exercises may do this? In that thread Kevin said me what should to be taken into account, but my imagination seems to be short. He also talked about bone remodeling.. I miss him.

Hi Flerc,

I'm not sure if this is what you had in mind, but one thing I used to do to try and target and strengthen weak areas of my back were various types of planks, especially side planks. I also worked with a teacher who taught yoga for scoliosis and I followed the schroth book. I practiced iyengar yoga and used props like ropes, chairs and blocks.

I ended up having surgery but I still plan to return to these types of exercises after I'm further in my recovery to address my imbalances.

Good luck!
Spring

flerc
06-21-2014, 10:48 PM
If the spine may stay with exactly the same shape without muscles, how may we think that changing the muscle lenght or tone, a structural improvement may be achieved?

flerc
06-21-2014, 10:52 PM
Hi Flerc,

I'm not sure if this is what you had in mind, but one thing I used to do to try and target and strengthen weak areas of my back were various types of planks, especially side planks. I also worked with a teacher who taught yoga for scoliosis and I followed the schroth book. I practiced iyengar yoga and used props like ropes, chairs and blocks.

I ended up having surgery but I still plan to return to these types of exercises after I'm further in my recovery to address my imbalances.

Good luck!
Spring

Thanks springchicken, I allways think in Iyengar and Schroth.. How many years did you tried?

springchicken
06-21-2014, 11:09 PM
Flerc, I practiced yoga on and off for years, but I only worked with an iyengar teacher for about 2 years. I would also sometimes go to nyc for private lessons at a place called yoga union backcare which is excellent. The teachers specialize in yoga for scoliosis and I learned so much!

I have never practiced the schroth method formally, but I did have the yellow book and followed that the best I could...

flerc
06-21-2014, 11:20 PM
this is the yellow book? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Three-Dimensional-Treatment-Scoliosis-Christa-Lehnert-Schroth/dp/0914959026
I could never understand it, is extremely complex for me.. and Schroth is not in my country

flerc
06-21-2014, 11:59 PM
Why you had surgery? I'm trying to undesrstand why some curves progress and others not. And I cannot be sure if muscles has to do or not.

springchicken
06-22-2014, 09:26 AM
this is the yellow book? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Three-Dimensional-Treatment-Scoliosis-Christa-Lehnert-Schroth/dp/0914959026
I could never understand it, is extremely complex for me.. and Schroth is not in my country

Yep, that's the book. I found it very hard to understand, also! But one thing that worked for me- "side planks" or variations that engaged the weaker muscles in my back that were otherwise hard to target. She showed similar types of these exercises in the book.

As to why I got surgery: my curve was stable for many years, but recently in the past few years, it started gradually creeping up again. Who knows why? Maybe because I had a curve very low in my lumbar area, those curves tend to progress, I think, especially when you are sitting all day at a desk job.

I figured it was going to continue slowly progressing the rest of my life and I didn't feel like waiting till I was older to have the surgery. I was in good shape and the timing was right. Every individual is different, though, of course!

flerc
06-22-2014, 04:14 PM
Yep, that's the book. I found it very hard to understand, also! But one thing that worked for me- "side planks" or variations that engaged the weaker muscles in my back that were otherwise hard to target. She showed similar types of these exercises in the book.

As to why I got surgery: my curve was stable for many years, but recently in the past few years, it started gradually creeping up again. Who knows why? Maybe because I had a curve very low in my lumbar area, those curves tend to progress, I think, especially when you are sitting all day at a desk job.

I figured it was going to continue slowly progressing the rest of my life and I didn't feel like waiting till I was older to have the surgery. I was in good shape and the timing was right. Every individual is different, though, of course!

I think to have surgery being young is the most common decision.. and a reasonable decision of course..this is probably the only kind of decisions we can hope to take. Which decision could be the best in each case, requires a knowledge, intelligence, intuition.. surely beyond our possibilities.

I'm rereading what Kevin said and I'm not sure..


Yes, N=Newtons. And yes, it isn't much weight at all. I believe Stokes was the one who published this. While it is a very small amount of weight, remember that these studies were done on cadaver spines with only ligaments attached.


if muscles are cutted the curve would remains the same?

boogaloo
06-22-2014, 05:05 PM
Yes Flerc, I know about the bone remodeling which you posted. The problem is, you must have great amount of correction and that correction must be maintained for a very long time in adults in order to start bone remodeling.
And why some curves progress and others don't? I think that 50° mark alone can't be taken into account because scoliosis is 3D deformity. No matter what the cause of scoliosis is, we know that biomechanics have a major role in curve progression. Vertebral body stapling works for children who are still growing, that is clear evidence it is mainly biomechanical disease, also that means that bracing MUST work in children if we achieve high correction(check out Rahmouni from Germany, I have seen some amazing results on his web page with his overcorrective braces.)
You can't take into account just cobb angle, because vertebral rotation and spine's saggital profile also have influence on spine stability. Also, I think that vertebral bone density could influence progression. Maybe that is why females after menopause sometimes experience significant progression!?
If only gravity leads to curve progression, than body weight is also important because additional weight surelly puts more stress on the spine.
So, if adult scoliosis progression is influenced only by gravity and spine's ability to counter that force than we can say that all these components have influence: cobb angle, vertebral rotation, sagittal profile, body weight(BMI), bone density and also our posture. And yes, if ligaments hold vertebrae together, than loose ligaments and too much mobility is not good. This is so complex but it is all logical and makes sense. It just looks like medical comunity is not interested enough in this subject because they are now able to do these costly surgeries with acceptable outcome in most cases.
Spring, where the appex of your curve was, which vertebras were included in your lumbar scoliosis?

flerc
06-22-2014, 05:35 PM
Yes Flerc, I know about the bone remodeling which you posted. The problem is, you must have great amount of correction and that correction must be maintained for a very long time in adults in order to start bone remodeling.

Hi Boogaloo, how many time is needed? I’m not sure to understand well this issue but I suppose that remodeling may be good or bad. The bad remodeling leads to vertebral wedge which in turn would leads to progression.. a surgeon said me something as that bad remodeling leads to artrosis. It should be stopped!. Even if good remodeling cannot be achieved without surgery or braces, we need to break that vicious cycle. If good remodeling would need a long time having the vertebras without an important desviation or aligned, bad remodeling would not also need a long time the vertebras, all the time forming the curve? If during some hours during the day (or night) you have your vertebras aligned, that cycle would not be broken?

flerc
06-22-2014, 07:28 PM
If only gravity leads to curve progression, than body weight is also important because additional weight surelly puts more stress on the spine.
So, if adult scoliosis progression is influenced only by gravity and spine's ability to counter that force than we can say that all these components have influence: cobb angle, vertebral rotation, sagittal profile, body weight(BMI), bone density and also our posture. And yes, if ligaments hold vertebrae together, than loose ligaments and too much mobility is not good. This is so complex but it is all logical and makes sense.

In kids, growth + gravity but in adults, what else? Probably muscular forces, but surely if we would live in the moon, that kind of internal forces would not be enough for progression.
Not only vertebral shape, but also disc height seems to be important.. hydratation is needed, I heard that vertebra irrigation too.

I think we need to improve the statical structure and I don't know what could be done with ligaments.. if muscles don't holds the spine, I don't know what could be done.. I thinks is mainly a static problem as I said to Kevin.. but what could I know..



It just looks like medical comunity is not interested enough in this subject because they are now able to do these costly surgeries with acceptable outcome in most cases.

Few days ago I heard a spinal surgeon saying he knows that within some years the surgeries he does will be seen as something brutish, but he is a human wanting to help and he cannot perform another kind of surgery. But for medical community, scoliosis seems to be a solved problem.

flerc
06-22-2014, 08:16 PM
I think we need to improve the statical structure and I don't know what could be done with ligaments.. if muscles don't holds the spine, I don't know what could be done.. I thinks is mainly a static problem as I said to Kevin.. but what could I know..


Probably something may be done to improve ligaments (Kevin said something), fascias and joints, but sureley muscular lenght and tone may be improved, but if they don't belongs to the static system.. wich could be the benefit?

flerc
06-22-2014, 08:25 PM
I'm thinking that even if it would be true that the curve would remains with the same degrees if muscles would be cut (but not ligaments) anyway it would not imply that muscles don't belongs to the static system.. if some muscle lenght would be shorter, the curve should to change.

flerc
06-23-2014, 12:57 PM
IF only ligaments holds the spine in a static way, as that proof in a cadaver seems to have shown, we may think that muscular improvement as Schroth, Seas and others proposed, would have not much sense. Which could be the benefit if the spine structure would remains the same? Just only to fight against the gravity force during exercise practice?
But I suppose that that cadaver spine had not scoliosis. Probably in a normal spine, muscles has nothing to do with something different to movement.. it has really much sense. But with a lateral curve, I think it should to be different and probably some specific (which?) muscle may hold the spine in a better way if it is shorter or even with higher tone.
We need to know anatomy, but probably this issue is a mystery not only for us.

flerc
06-29-2014, 11:17 PM
sureley muscular lenght and tone may be improved, but if they don't belongs to the static system.. wich could be the benefit?

psoas don't seems to have much to do with lordosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7730392

the same may be said about any other muscle and scoliosis?

flerc
06-30-2014, 10:22 AM
Yes Flerc, I know about the bone remodeling which you posted. The problem is, you must have great amount of correction and that correction must be maintained for a very long time in adults in order to start bone remodeling.

Boogaloo, as I know Spinecor for adults treatment lasts 18 months. Do you believe it would be enough?

rkochis
07-02-2014, 01:03 PM
Age 67
62 degree right thoracic
48 degree left lumbar
3/4 " short left leg

Have you had your leg lengths measured? In my opinion, I believe that my short left leg CAUSED my scoliosis. 6 weeks ago I had left hip replacement and the surgeon extended my left femur 1/2 ".
I no longer where a lift.

I have been doing exercises daily for 5 years after I "hit the wall" at the age of sixty.

If you want to see what I do in the daily program, send an email request to rkochis65@gmail.com I will send a dropbox link. I use a combination of Egoscue and SLM Yoga
Over the 5 years my curvatures have not changed (had them measured a year ago) but I can state without reservation that my posture has improved significantly.
Randy

flerc
07-05-2014, 11:16 AM
Great to read what you are saying RKochis, very much hopeful really. I’ll send you an email of course. I think is not true that is only a genetic matter the reason explaining why some people with a big curve are fine and others with a lesser curve are so bad. Non-surgical actions (not only treatments) has a lot to do for me. I’m not sure about muscles.. every day I think different. Today I remember what I thought about the atypical height difference in the morning.. also I heard that Rxs shows different degrees, so why could be it possible if muscles has nothing to do in order to hold the spine?Ligaments is again the reason? It’s clearly not only a discs matter.
Really good to find someone as you here!!

boogaloo
07-05-2014, 03:23 PM
That really interests me too. Why is curve magnitude bigger in the evening than in the morning, especially for those over 40°? Maybe Linda could ask someone who is specialized in spine? That really happens because I feel that and I can see it, in the morning my torso looks taller and my back feels straighter. In the evening I feel like my ribs are closer to my pelvis and my torso looks shorter and I get that tired feeling in my back. If that curve worsening is because of ligaments I think that it would cause permanent worsening, and curve would not come back to its original shape after sleeping all night. I really think muscles are involved here because during the sleep they deeply relax and rest and in the morning they are capable of holding the spine straighter, how the day goes they get tired and can't hold the spine. But who knows, maybe my theory is completely wrong...

susancook
07-05-2014, 08:55 PM
Curve magnitude may be slightly larger in the evening because the weight of the vertebrae increases loading over the day. We are also taller in the morning than the evening for the same reason . Susan

LindaRacine
07-05-2014, 10:36 PM
I don't think the weight of the vertebrae changes (at least not in a single day). Curves increase during the day because the discs lose fluid. They regain that fluid at night.

flerc
07-05-2014, 10:41 PM
Boogallo, probably nobody in the world is able to answer these kinds of questions. Probably if you ask this to 10 different specialized in spine professionals you’ll get 10 different answers. Maybe science cannot help us in this sense, probably not yet. We need to get the knowledge for ourselves. But it seems to be really very few people around the world interested in do this. What I saw today after some days that my daughter was in bed because sore throat cannot be explained in anyway because disc decompression, impossible really. Unfortunately I have not scoliosis, otherwise I could do some experiments with my body. .a lot of experiments really. Like this man I found some days ago. http://www2.pms-lj.si/bibliag/scoliosis.htm I bought some years ago exactly the same kind of corset for my daughter but she never used it.. I didn’t insisted very much, I’m not a health professional. This man says what I said in some threads about backpacks. If I would have scoliosis I would use it, I’d add more weight during the day. Some physiatrists talks about unconscious muscles. I’m not sure if it have sense but when I bend to the left I feel back muscles around right side activated and I’m not doing it in a conscious way. Some years ago I asked to my son to stand over my shoulders. I think it was unconscious and really fantastic the force of my muscles trying to make me taller. I think that during night those muscles ‘understand’ that is not any need to work, but in the morning, when we stand up, gravity force arises immediately so they try to make us taller. After some hours they begin to accept that manageable force and begin to stop to stretch us. But what if they see that gravity force is greater and greater during the day? I think they should to try to make us taller during all the day. Well.. surely your theory has much more sense..

flerc
07-05-2014, 11:27 PM
If it would be true, it would be great!! A muscular brace! It would be really very simple to design a dispositive adding weight to the shoulders during the day.

flerc
07-08-2014, 07:30 PM
If that curve worsening is because of ligaments I think that it would cause permanent worsening, and curve would not come back to its original shape after sleeping all night.
I thought the same until I saw this: http://izismile.com/2010/09/22/meet_zlata_a_super_elastic_sexy_girl.html
If ligaments are like rubber bands, who knows if because gravity force during the day they begin to stretch..

flerc
07-11-2014, 11:29 AM
Or everything is a matter of fascias? http://www.abmp.com/textonlymags/article.php?article=990
An osteopath said me that is very much difficult to try to do this kind of distinction among ligaments and muscles functions.. everything seems to be interconnected and fascias seems to wrap everything. Recently a Rolfer proved the contractile fascias properties. Science seems to be in diapers!

sparklegirl59
10-05-2014, 02:07 PM
Hi, Boogaloo,

I had a 30 thoracic and 31 lumbar degree curve in my back. I wore a Boston Brace for 3 1/2 years. After I got out of the brace, I was told a year later that my curve was 36. I started doing Yoga as suggested by a bone surgeon and a registered nurse. I went back a year later and found that my curve degree went down by one, and my doctor released me from his care, saying that I am a 'stable kid.' I am very happy with the way Yoga makes my back feel. I get so relaxed when I do Yoga as well. I have to say that I agree with you on all of your points with the PT. Certain exercises and stretches really DO help your spine! After all, it is surrounded by muscles and when these muscles are strengthened, that is only beneficial to your spine. Good luck with everything! May I ask how you are doing now?

Sincerely,
Val

boogaloo
11-02-2014, 05:58 AM
Hi Val,
thank you for sharing your experience. I am doing great, don't have any pain or limitations so far. Knocking on the wood! :)
Now I am few months in my excercise routine and I am feeling better every day. I gained some muscles and I am motivated even more to accomplish what I started. 186 cm and 70 kg. Must gain some weight. I will be updating here to keep an eye on my progress.

Kevin_Mc
02-10-2015, 10:57 AM
Sorry for missing this last year. Flerc alerted me to some discussions but I somehow missed this part after I clarified a point on a different thread (not sure which one). It's true, I don't come on here that often anymore, but I still get alerts if someone quotes something I said or sends me a private message, so feel free to utilize that if you'd like my input.

Boogaloo, you seem to have the right idea. At least as far as the components of the curve that can influence progression, e.g. Cobb, rotation, etc... If you have any remaining questions, I'd be happy to give my thoughts.

flerc
02-13-2015, 03:29 PM
Kevin!! Great to see you here again!. I'm in a hurry now, I show you what I'm thinking to do
Thanx Alistar, certainly I arrived to the conclusion that this before after x-rays values should to be really right, otherwise SEAS group would have said something, I understand they critiziced and doubted about everything except this. And I think this conclusion will lead me to go ahead with the 'Side Plank Project'.. nothing simple in my case. I realized some days ago that the therapy my daughter is doing since years ago may be seen as the opposite of strengthener exercises so probably her physiatrist don't agree or the effect of the Side Plank may be lost after those sessions, so probably she should to leave her physiatrist for some months.. something very much hard and difficult to do. But certainly if this exercise worked in those cases, I should to try and run the risks..

It would be the best to know what you think!

Kevin_Mc
02-18-2015, 04:18 PM
I don't see how a side plank would be harmful. On the other hand, the amount of work they are talking about performing, i.e. hold the pose until exhaustion (~90seconds) once per day, would likely have little to no effect in curves >30°. I understand that the initial trial showed some promising results. But this has been the problem with exercise treatment and scoliosis for a century. That is, a long time ago exercise was deemed as "push ups, sit ups, side bends and the like". If a single exercise performed once per day could have an effect on the spine, then it would seem like slouching would have caused a lot more problems than it does in teenagers.

Without reading the entire study it's hard to make a fair judgement. But initially, it just doesn't seem to be enough stress to the muscles and other structures to effect any kind of change. I'd love nothing more than an exercise or series of exercises to prove to be 100% effective in any size scoliosis curve, degenerative or idiopathic (which is what the study claims). But I remain very skeptical.

Again, to answer your question, I don't see how it would do any harm really.

flerc
02-20-2015, 12:16 AM
Thanks Kevin. Certainly what I'm afraid is not really about some real harm, but a waste of efforts doing this demanding exercise strenghtening some (which?) muscles and also 'weakening' probably the same muscles with Gpr sesions, so nothing good would be achieved after those months and surely my daughter would forget this exercise for ever. Of course it would not have any sense if this exercise would be unable to reduce a big curve. But if this would be the case, then the before after x-rays values would not be right and it seems that nobody is saying this.
Of course is something incredible, the only "explanation" I imagine is that muscles are working with the curve reduced.. I didn't see the back of my daughter doing it but I suppose the spine should to be stretched in that pose.. I think muscles may really work in that way.. is what I think happens with the Spinecor. But even if we cannot understand it, if x-ryas are a fact, then it works.. what may we does to be sure?

AMom
02-20-2015, 11:08 PM
...

Without reading the entire study it's hard to make a fair judgement....

Check your email

flerc
03-04-2015, 06:13 PM
Kevin, do you know which muscles are activated by this exercise? Certainly I was trying to know which muscles are activated when the Spinecor for adults is used; I suppose they should to be the muscles allowing us to support a heavy weight over the shoulders, making us taller. Probably these muscles also have to do with rotation. I don’t know why Mri are not used to know these issues.

Pooka1
03-04-2015, 10:28 PM
Certainly I was trying to know which muscles are activated when the Spinecor for adults is used;

All braces including Spinecor de-activate muscles. They take over some of the work of the muscles so the muscles decline.

flerc
03-05-2015, 12:02 AM
Really not. Spinecor is not a brace. The bands does tensions leading the body to adopt the best posture. Muscles are working when the Spinecor is used and the curve is reduced if the spine is enough flexible, but nobody says which are those muscles. They only says is a neuromuscular system working through thousands of movements per day adapting the body to a better posture. I cannot understand why nobody uses Mri to know which are those muscles.

Kevin_Mc
03-05-2015, 09:57 AM
I don’t know why Mri are not used to know these issues.

I had this experiment in my dissertation proposal. My committee removed it due to a number of logistical issues. But I have wanted to do this for at least a decade now... sigh


The standard paraspinal muscles are usually mentioned, multifidus, longisimus, etc.. as well as some of the latisimus and obliques. The intercostal muscles are heavily implicated in poliotic scoliosis which sort of causes the spine to collapse due to paralysis. Ultimately, the spine uses such a large number of muscles for the various movements it is very difficult to know exactly how it does what it does. There is a lot of redundancy programmed into our movement patterns. Evolutionarily, this keeps us functional on a day to day basis. But long term can lead to injury if our movements create too much stress on certain segments.

So, the short answer is that any muscles we say are being activated are just theoretical based on biomechanics.

Pooka1
03-05-2015, 10:08 AM
In your professional opinion, is Spinecor a brace and does it necessarily cause muscle atrophy?

flerc
03-05-2015, 06:59 PM
I had this experiment in my dissertation proposal. My committee removed it due to a number of logistical issues. But I have wanted to do this for at least a decade now... sigh


The standard paraspinal muscles are usually mentioned, multifidus, longisimus, etc.. as well as some of the latisimus and obliques. The intercostal muscles are heavily implicated in poliotic scoliosis which sort of causes the spine to collapse due to paralysis. Ultimately, the spine uses such a large number of muscles for the various movements it is very difficult to know exactly how it does what it does. There is a lot of redundancy programmed into our movement patterns. Evolutionarily, this keeps us functional on a day to day basis. But long term can lead to injury if our movements create too much stress on certain segments.

So, the short answer is that any muscles we say are being activated are just theoretical based on biomechanics.

Yes, surely it should to be very hard to deduce what muscle does exactly what.. and why to deduce if an experiment may show it! It doesn't seem to have much sense. Anyway those x-rays values seems to be right, so this asymetric exercise
should had to provoke important structural changes in those C curves.

flerc
03-18-2015, 11:46 PM
Kevin, do you think that that 120º case may be a degenerative case? It seems dificult to believe it, but someone said me that ostheoporosis may lead an adult to have such giant curve.. what do you think? Is it impossible to contact that woman? Certainly even in a degenerative case such fantastic reduction should to be analyzed. People of this study should to be studied.. respecting their human rights of course.

boogaloo
02-06-2016, 07:29 AM
Hello scoli friends, just wanted to chime in and tell you about my progress so far.
I am now one year into intensive strenght training. It consists of 2-3 full body workouts a week. I gained 5kg and maintained my body fat level at around 12%. My training consists of squat, deadlift, pull ups, bench press, overhead press and few other isolation excercises. I am doing high rep workouts( 8-12 reps per set ) with around 70-80% of my one rep max. Reason being avoiding injury and it's easier to maintain perfect form in big compound movements like squat and deadlift.
My core strenght has improved dramatically! I still don't have any pain and my back feels stronger and less fatigued at the end of the day. I must say that deadlift is amazing excercise for building overall core strenght, if not the best.
And for me, the biggest change I have noticed is my mental state! I am happier, more confident, depressed and anxious days dissapapeared. Overall my quality of life has improved and that is the most important thing I am getting from this.
I have a question for Linda Racine. Linda, why are most if not all doctors against weight training for people with scoliosis and even for people with normal spines.
Do they really think that it is so easy to injure your back while lifting weights? It is easy if you are lifting more than you can with bad form. It is also easy to get killed by a car if you don't know to look left and right while crossing the road but it is not reason not to do it.
Weight training has good impact on bone density and core strenght which is probably the two most important things for us with scoliosis and back problems. And if you are going to watch your diet and have healthy body weight, you have done all that you can to keep yourself out of the hospital.

flerc
02-06-2016, 09:13 AM
Really great!!! I was accused to be insane when I said that backpacks (of course not too much heavy) should to be something good. If gravity force is one of the causes of progression, is reasonable to think that fighting against it must to be good.

LindaRacine
02-06-2016, 02:09 PM
Spine (Phila Pa 1976). 2014 Oct 15;39(22):1881-6. doi: 10.1097/BRS.0000000000000554.
Early intervertebral disc degeneration changes in asymptomatic weightlifters assessed by t1ρ-magnetic resonance imaging.
Vadalà G1, Russo F, Battisti S, Stellato L, Martina F, Del Vescovo R, Giacalone A, Borthakur A, Zobel BB, Denaro V.
Author information
Abstract
STUDY DESIGN:
Case-control study.
OBJECTIVE:
To evaluate early intervertebral disc degeneration quantified by T1ρ- and T2-weighted magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) in asymptomatic weightlifters compared with a healthy control group matched for sex and age.
SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA:
Athletes consistently recruit or transfer high levels of repetitive forces through the spine, and MRI has documented a higher rate of intervertebral disc degeneration in athletes compared with matched controls. This study aims to analyze the potential role of T1ρ-MRI in the assessment of early degenerative changes occurring in intervertebral discs of young asymptomatic weightlifters compared with healthy controls.
METHODS:
Twenty-six asymptomatic young male weightlifters versus a sedentary control group matched for age and sex, both having no lower back pain nor any spinal symptoms, underwent MRI (1.5 T). Degenerative grade was assessed using T2-weighted images, according to the Pfirrmann scale. T1ρ mapping and values in the nucleus pulposus (n=130) were obtained. Differences in T1ρ value between among the groups and linear regression analyses with degenerative grade were determined.
RESULTS:
Pfirrmann degenerative grade did not show significant differences among groups. Instead, T1ρ values were significantly lower in the lumbar spine of weightlifters compared with controls (P<0.05). T1ρ values decreased linearly with degenerative grade.
CONCLUSION:
T1ρ values were significantly lower in athletes compared with a sedentary matched control group showing differences in intervertebral disc degeneration onset among individuals with lifestyle and environmental factors leading to back pain. T1ρ can be potentially used as a valid clinical tool to identify early changes in intervertebral disc on the verge of new emerging intervertebral discs regenerative strategies and treatments.

LindaRacine
02-06-2016, 02:09 PM
Phys Ther. 2014 Nov;94(11):1582-93. doi: 10.2522/ptj.20130095. Epub 2014 Jun 26.
The dose-response relationship between cumulative lifting load and lumbar disk degeneration based on magnetic resonance imaging findings.
Hung YJ1, Shih TT2, Chen BB3, Hwang YH4, Ma LP5, Huang WC6, Liou SH7, Ho IK8, Guo YL9.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Lumbar disk degeneration (LDD) has been related to heavy physical loading. However, the quantification of the exposure has been controversial, and the dose-response relationship with the LDD has not been established.
OBJECTIVE:
The purpose of this study was to investigate the dose-response relationship between lifetime cumulative lifting load and LDD.
DESIGN:
This was a cross-sectional study.
METHODS:
Every participant received assessments with a questionnaire, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of the lumbar spine, and estimation of lumbar disk compression load. The MRI assessments included assessment of disk dehydration, annulus tear, disk height narrowing, bulging, protrusion, extrusion, sequestration, degenerative and spondylolytic spondylolisthesis, foramina narrowing, and nerve root compression on each lumbar disk level. The compression load was predicted using a biomechanical software system.
RESULTS:
A total of 553 participants were recruited in this study and categorized into tertiles by cumulative lifting load (ie, <4.0 × 10(5), 4.0 × 10(5) to 8.9 × 10(6), and ≥8.9 × 10(6) Nh). The risk of LDD increased with cumulative lifting load. The best dose-response relationships were found at the L5-S1 disk level, in which high cumulative lifting load was associated with elevated odds ratios of 2.5 (95% confidence interval [95% CI]=1.5, 4.1) for dehydration and 4.1 (95% CI=1.9, 10.1) for disk height narrowing compared with low lifting load. Participants exposed to intermediate lifting load had an increased odds ratio of 2.1 (95% CI=1.3, 3.3) for bulging compared with low lifting load. The tests for trend were significant.
LIMITATIONS:
There is no "gold standard" assessment tool for measuring the lumbar compression load.
CONCLUSIONS:
The results suggest a dose-response relationship between cumulative lifting load and LDD.

LindaRacine
02-06-2016, 02:10 PM
J Biomech. 2014 Jan 3;47(1):24-31. doi: 10.1016/j.jbiomech.2013.10.032. Epub 2013 Oct 28.
Damage accumulation location under cyclic loading in the lumbar disc shifts from inner annulus lamellae to peripheral annulus with increasing disc degeneration.
Qasim M1, Natarajan RN2, An HS3, Andersson GB3.
Author information
Abstract
It is difficult to study the breakdown of lumbar disc tissue over several years of exposure to bending and lifting by experimental methods. In our earlier published study we have shown how a finite element model of a healthy lumbar motion segment was used to predict the damage accumulation location and number of cyclic to failure under different loading conditions. The aim of the current study was to extend the continuum damage mechanics formulation to the degenerated discs and investigate the initiation and progression of mechanical damage. Healthy disc model was modified to represent degenerative discs (Thompson grade III and IV) by incorporating both geometrical and biochemical changes due to degeneration. Analyses predicted decrease in the number of cycles to failure with increasing severity of disc degeneration. The study showed that the damage initiated at the posterior inner annulus adjacent to the endplates and propagated outwards towards its periphery in healthy and grade III degenerated discs. The damage accumulated preferentially in the posterior region of the annulus. However in grade IV degenerated disc damage initiated at the posterior outer periphery of the annulus and propagated circumferentially. The finite element model predictions were consistent with the infrequent occurrence of rim lesions at early age but a much higher incidence in severely degenerated discs.

LindaRacine
02-06-2016, 02:11 PM
High-frequency loading of lumbar ligaments increases proinflammatory cytokines expression in a feline model of repetitive musculoskeletal disorder.
Pinski SE1, King KB, Davidson BS, Zhou BH, Lu Y, Solomonow M.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND CONTEXT:
Cumulative (repetitive) lumbar disorder is common in the workforce, and the associated epidemiology points out high risk for lifting heavy loads, performing many repetitions, and performing movements at high velocity. Experimental verification of viscoelastic tissue degradation and a neuromuscular disorder exist for cyclic work under heavy loads. Experimental validation for a disorder because of cyclic loads under high-velocity movement is missing.
PURPOSE:
Obtain experimental verification that high-velocity lumbar flexion-extension results in significant increase of proinflammatory cytokines in the viscoelastic tissues.
STUDY DESIGN:
Laboratory experiments using two in vivo feline model groups subjected to cyclic flexion-extension at low and high velocity.
METHODS:
Seven hours after cumulative 60 minutes of cyclic flexion-extension at moderate load of 40 N and 0.25 Hz for first group and 0.5 Hz for the second group, the supraspinous ligaments of L3-L4 to L5-L6 were harvested and subjected to cytokines (interleukin [IL]-1β, IL-6, IL-8, tumor necrosis factor-α, and transforming growth factor-β1) analysis. Two-way mixed model analysis of variance with a post hoc analysis were used to assess any significant differences (p<.05) in cytokines expression level between the two groups as well as main effect and interaction with lumbar levels.
RESULTS:
Expression levels of the five cytokines were significantly increased in the group subjected to the high-frequency loading.
CONCLUSIONS:
Exposure of the lumbar spine to high-velocity flexion-extension triggers a significant increase in proinflammatory cytokines, indicating pronounced changes consistent with an acute inflammation. Further exposure to activity over prolonged periods may trigger chronic inflammation and tissue degeneration as the source of cumulative lumbar disorder.

LindaRacine
02-06-2016, 02:11 PM
Is that enough evidence? If not, go to PubMed and search WEIGHT TRAINING SPINE DEGENERATION.

boogaloo
02-06-2016, 03:41 PM
Thanks Linda for your answer although it's not very encouraging.
I know this is science, and I am very pro science. But, on this topic we can surely find so much contradictory conclusions that I don't even want to start with it and it makes me really angry. I am aware that deadlift and squat are very taxing on the body and the spine because of the pressure it puts on it. Because of that I am not doing any of these with weights above my 70% of my one rep max. Also I am not doing deadlift from the floor, I raise the barbell on 20cm blocks so I don't have to go that low and it's easier to maintain neutral lumbar spine. I am writing this just to help if someone is interested in doing these.
Linda, you just posted these articles and you don't have any other comment about core strenght and bone density? You think that risks outweight the benefits of weight training?
Running is bad for your knees, don't lift weights cause you will snap your back, don't play tennis cause you will mess up your shoulders... Just sit all day on your butt and you don't have any of these risks. This is absolutely retarded mentality. Human body is designed to move, run, lift and not to sit and watch tv all day.
Nevermind I will continue to do this what I am doing, not because of some research showing this or that, but because my QUALITY OF LIFE has IMPROVED and I am encouraging everyone who is reading this to do the same thing. You don't have to do weight training, find something you like and stick with it.

flerc
02-07-2016, 10:48 AM
We should to know what happened with the fantastic world champion weightlifter who had a big curve, as I know it was 90º. Here there is a great bodybuilder with 70º. As I know his curve didn't progress.
What do you think may be happening with your curve? Did you measure your height? If you are taller is reasonable to suppose that you curve was reduced.

boogaloo
02-07-2016, 11:05 AM
Yeah that would be great, his name is Lamar Gant and it is amazing what he achieved despite his severe scoliosis.
I think my back is stable and I don't think this will reduce my curves.

flerc
02-07-2016, 12:30 PM
Yeah that would be great, his name is Lamar Gant and it is amazing what he achieved despite his severe scoliosis.
I think my back is stable and I don't think this will reduce my curves.

His case should to be studied. Sure big conclusions would arise. http://www.si.com/vault/1984/10/22/620778/he-bends-but-he-doesnt-break
I don't think that something too much extreme as this great champion does would be good. Increasing in such way the gravity force overcoming the tissues resistance and then increasing the curve don't seems to be something good.. but it seems to be a fact that strengthening exercises provokes muscular shortening.. it should to be good that convex side muscles may have then a shorter length ..
I think it should to be good for adults but not for kids. During growth, the growth itself is a toward up force that must to be used in order to redirect the curve, reducing it, so increasing the toward down gravity force don't seems to be a good idea, but who knows..
If your curve does not decrease but also doesn't increase, it would be great. Progression must to be stopped!.

titaniumed
02-07-2016, 01:07 PM
The study showed that the damage initiated at the posterior inner annulus adjacent to the endplates and propagated outwards towards its periphery in healthy and grade III degenerated discs. The damage accumulated preferentially in the posterior region of the annulus. However in grade IV degenerated disc damage initiated at the posterior outer periphery of the annulus and propagated circumferentially. The finite element model predictions were consistent with the infrequent occurrence of rim lesions at early age but a much higher incidence in severely degenerated discs.

Its interesting how discs always seem to herniate in the direction of the spinal cord. It probably wouldn’t matter if they herniated in any other direction, but when they extrude or protrude and touch the spinal cord, this new type of pain becomes a serious problem and once this happens its not an easy battle. Leaning forward compresses the front of the disc and forces the disc material towards the rear in this wedge. Bending over forward and lifting weights off the floor is a great way of creating this destructive scenario.

I had 4 CT verified lumbar disc herniation’s in my 70 degree lumbar curve and currently have 2 cervical herniation’s with no scoliosis....This leads me to believe that we as scolis have underlying disc and end plate problems from the start and scoliosis is or can be the result. Forces exasperate the problem. Here is a study of interest for us. It explains a lot.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253511/

When I was younger, I led an extremely physical life, and being a life long active skier meant that my body was in very good shape. My surgeon verified this through my blood work leading into my scoliosis surgeries. Everything was great except for my spine....I abused my spine, I have no doubt about that, but I wouldn’t have changed a thing since my old skiing days were part of me and my story....I also felt great while skiing, so I kept skiing.

I have a friend that wouldn’t think about hopping on his bike and pedaling 500 miles. He would ride and compete in these long distance competitions whenever he had a chance. He had a heart attack last week and is in a coma right now. Age 62. I don’t know what to say about this....did he wear out his heart?

I have come to the conclusion that over exercise is overrated. It can be destructive, and needs moderation and direction.

I know its hard when we enjoy doing these things, we like to have fun, but its probably wise to keep these things in mind.


Ed

Pooka1
02-07-2016, 01:31 PM
I have come to the conclusion that over exercise is overrated. It can be destructive, and needs moderation and direction.

My personal trainer agrees with you. He recently explained why he overcame is exercise addiction and why he uses the knowledge surrounding that to help his clients not over-train.

There was a recent article about how people from a tribe in Africa that move all day use about the same number of calories as more sedentary people. The answer is the more physically fit you get, the more efficiently you use your calories. This is one reason why exercise is not a very efficient way to lose weight. It's why I am not aspiring to be a star gym rat... diminishing returns.

flerc
02-07-2016, 02:12 PM
.. backpacks (of course not too much heavy) should to be something good. If gravity force is one of the causes of progression, is reasonable to think that fighting against it must to be good.

Certainly not backpacks but shoulder pads. Backpacks generates a moment tending to move the body back towards, so the natural reactions leads the body forward, something surely not good.
If the same 'principle' works in the vertical plane, shoulder pads (with the right weight) should to lead the body upward.

LindaRacine
02-07-2016, 11:30 PM
There are much better ways to strengthen one's core than weight lifting.

flerc
02-08-2016, 12:42 AM
May you say us which are those ways?

Pooka1
02-08-2016, 07:29 AM
Planks, supermans, balance exercises, ab machines (slide on an arc), kettle bells, TRX, anything that requires stabilization of the core. I work with a personal trainer and I have pretty hard abs in relatively little time due mostly to those things I mention. I have never done a sit up yet and they are not as good as these other things.

Lifting weights can work the abs but I don't think they are as targeted as the things I mention. Not sure. I do weights also but I am not sure they work the core like the other things. I'll try to remember to ask my trainer.

boogaloo
02-08-2016, 07:48 PM
Its interesting how discs always seem to herniate in the direction of the spinal cord. It probably wouldn’t matter if they herniated in any other direction, but when they extrude or protrude and touch the spinal cord, this new type of pain becomes a serious problem and once this happens its not an easy battle. Leaning forward compresses the front of the disc and forces the disc material towards the rear in this wedge. Bending over forward and lifting weights off the floor is a great way of creating this destructive scenario.

I had 4 CT verified lumbar disc herniation’s in my 70 degree lumbar curve and currently have 2 cervical herniation’s with no scoliosis....This leads me to believe that we as scolis have underlying disc and end plate problems from the start and scoliosis is or can be the result. Forces exasperate the problem. Here is a study of interest for us. It explains a lot.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253511/

When I was younger, I led an extremely physical life, and being a life long active skier meant that my body was in very good shape. My surgeon verified this through my blood work leading into my scoliosis surgeries. Everything was great except for my spine....I abused my spine, I have no doubt about that, but I wouldn’t have changed a thing since my old skiing days were part of me and my story....I also felt great while skiing, so I kept skiing.

I have a friend that wouldn’t think about hopping on his bike and pedaling 500 miles. He would ride and compete in these long distance competitions whenever he had a chance. He had a heart attack last week and is in a coma right now. Age 62. I don’t know what to say about this....did he wear out his heart?

I have come to the conclusion that over exercise is overrated. It can be destructive, and needs moderation and direction.

I know its hard when we enjoy doing these things, we like to have fun, but its probably wise to keep these things in mind.


Ed

I agree with all you said. That is why it is so important to maintain neutral lumbar spine when lifting off the floor and while sitting. Flexing the lumbar spine is what causes instability there and pushes discs in the direction of spinal cord, especialy under heavy load.
Over excercising and pushing your body through the limits is destructive. Every sport on a professional level is destructive, that is just the reality.

boogaloo
02-08-2016, 07:56 PM
The role of weight training in treating farmers with lumbar discopathy
Abstract
INTRODUCTION: Weight training can have a very positive impact on the body by improving both the functioning of internal organs and motor coordination. Weakening of the muscles leads to spinal pain, which in turn reduces one's mobility, this further decreasing muscular strength. Weight training can be used to treat both motor dysfunction and lumbar pain, but it is crucial to combine it with flexibility exercises. The aim of the presented study is to demonstrate the need for including physical exercises into the rehabilitation of patients diagnosed with degenerative disc disease in the lumbar vertebrae.

MATERIAL AND METHODS: The research was carried out on 120 patients who were agricultural workers. Each of them had been diagnosed as qualifying for surgery due to a herniated nucleus pulposus at the L4/L5 and L5/S1 levels. After all conventional methods had been tried, strength exercises were applied. The equipment used for the exercises included a multi- gym, dumbbells, weight training rods with plates chosen for a particular groups of muscles. General fitness exercises were also a part of the programme.

RESULTS: The observed results indicate that, sooner or later, weight training leads to full recovery and as such is therapeutically indispensable. By developing antagonistic and synergistic muscular actions, exercises bring relief and allow reduction in the intake of analgesic drugs. As a result, all the patients recuperated. It should be remembered that one week's immobilization reduces muscle strength and endurance by 20%. All the patients who enrolled in the weight training programme were able to avoid back surgery. Systematic exercises improved their neuro-muscular coordination.

This is interesting, 100% success rate.

Pooka1
02-08-2016, 08:17 PM
I don't know if it is parallel but when I herniated a disc, I was told it would heal if I rested it. Or I could do core work. I did some core work but mainly rested it. It healed for over 20 years until I herniated that or a nearby disc riding. I refused to accept it and tried to continue riding for 1.5 years but it never healed. By the way, riding is all core and I had a pretty good core during this time. Remembering I was told it would heal if I rested it, I rested it, stopped riding my horse for 3 months (the longest time I have ever stepped off him) and it healed completely. No core work, no weight training, etc. I am back riding most days a week with no issue.

I strongly suspect a control group who simply rested their backs would have 100% success also. It amazes me people still do studies without control groups. Not sure why that would be published.

titaniumed
02-09-2016, 01:15 AM
Each of them had been diagnosed as qualifying for surgery due to a herniated nucleus pulposus at the L4/L5 and L5/S1 levels.

Wow! I don’t know what to say....and all farmers?

I would like to see the link....(smiley face)

Ed

boogaloo
02-09-2016, 06:28 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23311814/?i=7&from=weight%20training%20spine%20degeneration
Yeah it seems that there is no control group. But why they stated that they were qualified for surgery if hernia heals on it's own? They also stated that they started weight training after ALL other conventional methods have been tried. I agree that study without control group is pretty sloppy...

Pooka1
02-09-2016, 07:01 AM
I'm not claiming to know what is going on here but I think this herniated disc surgery is claimed to be the most overused surgery. Not sure. Maybe Linda knows.

This reminds me of a "treatment" called pin firing in thoroughbred race horses... they actually use a hot small metal piece and burn several superficial holes into a horse's lower leg. The treatment appeared to be successful for decades until someone isolated the actual reason for success... enforced rest the horses got after the procedure. The rested by not treated horses had the same cure rate. These owners would not rest the horse if it wasn't treated.

boogaloo
02-09-2016, 07:25 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26364686/?i=7&from=weight%20training%20bone%20density
Note that bone mineral density increased in weight training group and it did not increase in core training group. It is known that scoliosis in womens deteriorates as they enter menopause and their bone density starts to decrease. It means it would be highly beneficial for this group of women to engage in this sort of training. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16096715/?i=2&from=/15159265/related

Pooka1
02-09-2016, 08:07 AM
I have heard that. You have to do weight bearing exercise to increase or maintain bone density.

The tendency to osteoporosis must be hereditary as there is none that I know of in my family despite most of them being sedentary. Before I started working out I had plenty of bone for example. But that said, I do think that women with scoliosis may have an issue with osteoporosis just from reading the testimonials here. But these women have to balance building bone with protecting their discs if they have a curve. As I understand Dr. Hey, it is the misalignment of the vertebra as in an untreated curve that will affect disc health. That is a powerful reason to straighten a T curve... to hope to save the L spine.

boogaloo
02-09-2016, 09:47 AM
Yes probably it is hereditary. Our genes count for 90% of our health. If my genetic potential is to live 80 years there is no way I could live 85 years. But if I lived unhealthy life I could die at 65. Same thing is happening with diseases.
Here we are talking about things that we can do to hold things under control and reach our genetic potential, no matter how screwed it is haha :)
By the way, horse riding is surely bad for your discs. Stop doing it :P
I agree about fusing the T spine IF the curve is PROGRESSIVE. But fusing 40° T curve that is not progressing at the moment just because it MIGHT cause disc problems in the future is absurd. Or if curve is progressing so slow that curve will get to 50° in 20 years. Who knows if you will be alive next week, not to talk about 20 years. Clear guidelines must be known to ensure that right patients get best possible treatment for their specific case, which is sometimes very hard.

flerc
02-09-2016, 10:20 AM
As I know is a fact that fusion is bad for discs under the fixed zone. Everything is complex and the current knowledge is not enough, and there's not something as a Scoliosis Body of Knowledge from where we may see the relevant facts in order to arrive to reasonable conclusions. Nobody in the world seems to be interested in make it, so we must to fight in the dark.
As I know is a fact what you say about bone density, but I think is right without scoliosis. According to the Wolff's law, if you increase the pressure over vertebras in a curve, it would turn it more curve. This is surely the worse point against lifting weights, except that muscles may straight enough the spine. It was an old and fantastic Schroth's video (it was removed) showing 2 teens with big curves straightening her spines doing a de-rotatory exercise and they showed how many inches they grows, surely it would be better than lifting weights.

Pooka1
02-09-2016, 02:52 PM
By the way, horse riding is surely bad for your discs. Stop doing it :P

Hey you're not kidding! Olympic level riders have bad backs so it must be the actual riding and not incorrect riding as some claim.

boogaloo
02-09-2016, 09:11 PM
Yeah I am not kidding, it is sarcasm. As I said before every sport on a professional level is destructive. They have to over excercise to get that 1% advantage over the others to win the 1st place.
But recreational sport is way better than doing nothing, so keep enjoying your rides :)

boogaloo
02-09-2016, 09:24 PM
Flerc, it is true what you said about the discs bellow the fusion.
I seriously doubt that light to moderate weight lifting has significant impact on a curve. Even if it does, it is training the muscles to hold the spine. Do you think that reducing or worsening a curve for a few minutes could have permanent impact on a curve? Sure not. If that would be true every person on this planet would have scoliosis.

Pooka1
02-09-2016, 09:26 PM
Yeah I am not kidding, it is sarcasm. As I said before every sport on a professional level is destructive. They have to over excercise to get that 1% advantage over the others to win the 1st place.
But recreational sport is way better than doing nothing, so keep enjoying your rides :)

No I didn't take you are being sarcastic. You are correct... humans are not meant to ride horses and even top riders have back back issues.

titaniumed
02-09-2016, 11:06 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23311814/?i=1&from=G%C4%85siorowski%20A[Author]

This doctor is quite a shady guy.......CEO of ART-B group.

When a President of a country requests extradition, you know its serious....

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrzej_G%C4%85siorowski_(przedsi%C4%99biorca)
(Right click for translation)

http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1991/eirv18n33-19910830/eirv18n33-19910830_006-art_b_scandal_hits_poland_shows.pdf

The guys that are really really bad, have to do a lot of good to cover..... That explains all the medals....

Sharon, you are right, PubMed will publish anything.

Ed

Pooka1
02-09-2016, 11:15 PM
WOW.

I wish pubmed would only list articles from peer-reviewed journals. Many articles would still be nonsense but it would cut back a little on the total volume of nonsense.

Pubmed is just a searchable database of published articles and I guess it would be hard to cull the enormous number of journals to only top shelf peer-reviewed ones.

titaniumed
02-10-2016, 12:07 AM
Its nice to know your authors.....

Its also nice to know your doctors.....and their training, CV, and “exactly” what it is that they do on a daily basis.....(I wouldn’t ask “Are you a Polish mobster on the side?”) LMAO!

That was a very funky paper he wrote.....I knew something was very wrong since I have had multiple herniated lumbar discs.

Ed

boogaloo
02-10-2016, 04:50 AM
Are you sure that is the author? His name is Adam not Andrzej...
Only if Andrzej means Adam in english, but I don't think that names are translated. Maybe I'm wrong.

Pooka1
02-10-2016, 08:10 AM
I think Boogaloo is correct these are different people. The guy in the article was supposedly a jazz musician circa 1991. He could have gone to med school after I guess but the first name is different.

Running a study without a control group is not quite as bad as the stuff mentioned by the other person. Almost but not quite. LOL.

boogaloo
02-10-2016, 09:52 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23772564/?i=1&from=Gąsiorowski%20A[Author]
Here is another study by the same author. There is no abstract but full journal article is available. Unfortunatelly it seems there is no control group here too but all of other methods have been tried before starting strenght training. That means something too but it's not good as it would be if there was a control group.

flerc
02-10-2016, 06:51 PM
Few weeks ago I had a hard discussion with someone who said me that herniate discs are impossible to be cured without surgery. I said him about 2 coworkers I know since many years ago who never more had again back pain. One of them used waves and the other physiatrists exercises. He challenged me to show him the studies (I suppose x-rays) showing that actually it were herniate discs and not something previous and not so serious. He said me something as there are a lot of wrong diagnosis and actual herniate discs cannot be reversed in a natural way. I'm trying to convince them to give me those x-rays..

jackieg412
02-10-2016, 07:34 PM
I think in s cases there is an acute phase that can be improved with PT. It doesn't cure the disc but makes it less painful . Or the nerves calm down and there isn't any more pain.

flerc
02-10-2016, 08:29 PM
Maybe, and also may be true a lot of wrong diagnosis. We should to know it.

flerc
02-10-2016, 08:42 PM
There are much better ways to strengthen one's core than weight lifting.

Certainly I'm not sure if it has sense to talk about a way to strengthen one's core. http://www.cpdo.net/Lederman_The_myth_of_core_stability.pdf
Surely normal people not need to strengthen nothing at least in a systematic way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWhu50FU_rA
But if it has sense, surely core stability is something be very different with scoliosis. Normal spines are not supporting terrific lateral forces.

titaniumed
02-10-2016, 09:57 PM
You guys are right, Adam is a different person.....Never a dull moment! LOL I’m still leaving that post up so readers can see what some doctors can actually do, and smile for the camera from a different country.

I still don’t believe his article on “weight training” for herniation’s and lumbar degeneration. I tried many alternative methods through the years, and even when my cervical discs herniated in March 2013, I still tried a little Chiro, ultrasound, traction, rest, and old Celebrex. My surgeon admitted that the Celebrex did help some, but wasn’t the right selection of meds. My neck has been ok now for almost 3 years, which indicates that the disc material did pull back off the cord. So, discs do retract. I hope it doesn’t get agitated and protrude or extrude again, that event was painful.

Many of the elder posters here have been in the same situation. Herniation’s and degeneration is a tough battle especially with large scoliosis curves when we get older. Herniated lumbar discs can be crippling. Sciatica is one of the most painful things, when your hips and legs burn as if someone is holding a torch up to your skin. My hip felt like a horse kicked it. I did that for 6 years. Weight training is not something that will help if this is happening.

I had luck with ocean therapy. De-weighting and swimming all day long. I thought I found the answer, and started scuba diving for scoliosis 20 years ago but it didn’t work every time which was such a let down. If it worked, I would have every member here scuba diving!

PT programs that include mild stretches and mobility are useful for feeling good....I always tried to stay active which helped out quite a bit. Live an active life and try to forget your scoliosis for your mental health.

Ed

flerc
02-11-2016, 08:27 PM
Maybe, and also may be true a lot of wrong diagnosis. We should to know it.

Probably with herniated discs may occurs the same that with scoliosis, where we may have curves many times worse than others and some methods may work in some of them and not in others..

scoliosisbro
02-15-2016, 01:39 PM
For scroth method, do you breathe through your diaphragm or chest? does it depend on whether your problem is in the thoracic or lumbar?

flerc
02-15-2016, 02:37 PM
Someone knowing Schroth here might answer your question.

boogaloo
05-13-2016, 05:43 AM
Just an update to keep the track on my progress. Scale is now on 78.5kg. I've been gaining 1kg per month for the last 9 months while maintaing body fat around 11%. Those newbie gains :)
It is satisfing when someone who haven't seen you a long time compliments how you got so muscular, I used to be skinny as a stick. Confidence gains too :D I progressed so much on a deadlift and I think I will stop adding weight on this excercise, I don't wan't to injure myself, I already got very good strenght base from this excercise. Maybe in future I will post some pictures to motivate others. Until next time, stay strong and don't give up :)

flerc
05-24-2016, 11:40 AM
Great Boogaloo! It would be good to see your pics.

boogaloo
08-08-2016, 08:00 PM
https://youtu.be/eTy-EqSjN3A

https://youtu.be/nzAytFMwFNU

Two very common myths about weight training. I am not sure am I allowed to link you tube videos here, if I'm not let me know.

boogaloo
08-29-2016, 06:07 AM
One thing popped into my head today. My scoliosis was 30° when I was 180cm tall and I almost had no deformity from scoliosis, I felt completely normal. I am now done growing at 186cm and now it is 40° and deformity is much worse than it was at 30° and risk of further progression is greater.
Probably there is a medical way of stunting growth in teens with some medications or hormones( I am not sure about this ). If it is possible, would it be reasonable to stunt growth when my scoliosis was 30°, I was already happy with my height. I would have scoliosis that has no impact on my self image, odds of progression and further problems would be much lower. Maybe this is kind of a silly question but I would like to hear your thoughts on this idea.

flerc
08-30-2016, 03:02 PM
Yes, it s a good idea and it is possible with hormones like cortisol.