PDA

View Full Version : Schroth discussed in the New York Times



aterry
05-13-2014, 09:47 AM
There is a discussion of the Schroth approach in the New York Times, including the encouraging bit of news that the Hospital for Special Surgery is now using it. The url is long but you can also go to the Times and then go to the WELL blog.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/12/hope-for-an-s-shaped-back/?_php=true&_type=blogs&hpw&rref=health&action=click&module=Search&region=searchResults&mabReward=relbias%3Ar&url=http%3A%2F%2Fquery.nytimes.com%2Fsearch%2Fsite search%2F%3Faction%3Dclick%26region%3DMasthead%26p gtype%3DSectionFront%26module%3DSearchSubmit%26con tentCollection%3Dscience%26t%3Dqry450%23%2FSchroth&_r=0

flerc
05-16-2014, 01:21 PM
Hi Aterry, good to know that N.Y. Times continues giving us good non surgical news!
Schroth is obviously a very much logic method without any doubt and not only having to do with muscular strength and tone as seems to be promoted. I’m focused in bone remodeling in adults http://www.uvm.edu/~istokes/pdfs/JSPD24.pdf and some Schroth exercises sure are good also in that sense.

See you.

Writer
05-21-2014, 03:57 AM
Perhaps the most interesting aspect of Ms. Peachman's story is the statements by four orthopedists that the Schroth method appears to make a positive difference, or at least is worth investigating. And notice that even the renowned Hospital for Special Surgery in New York City has added one or more Schroth therapists to its staff.

Pooka1
05-21-2014, 07:32 AM
PT has been shown to be effective for pain.

The progression issue was not solved by Weiss (after about 10 years and about 30,000 patients) and so he doesn't do the family PT any more for that purpose if I understand his quote correctly about only doing bracing now.

flerc
05-22-2014, 12:11 PM
Perhaps the most interesting aspect of Ms. Peachman's story is the statements by four orthopedists that the Schroth method appears to make a positive difference, or at least is worth investigating. And notice that even the renowned Hospital for Special Surgery in New York City has added one or more Schroth therapists to its staff.

Yes, I also think so. Fortunately today we are able to understand the changes that something like Schroth may do, so people began to realize that not only pain but also progression might be stopped in some cases with the right kind of PT.

mariaf
05-22-2014, 03:39 PM
I'm not sure it has been proven (not yet, at least) that progression can be stopped with this or any sort of PT.

However, having said that, it seems that doctors have found use for this form of PT in some cases, perhaps when used in conjunction with other treatments, as the quote below from the article mentions:

“We’re primarily using Schroth on people who are being braced — I think it will make bracing more successful,” said Dr. M. Timothy Hresko, chairman of the research society’s nonoperative committee and associate professor of orthopedic surgery at Harvard."

That sounds like a very reasonable expectation/approach from a very highly-regarded orthopedic surgeon.

The author (a 38 year-old woman) also seems to be focusing in the article on pain relief for herself. Perhaps HSS is using this Schroth therapist to help with pain management, which of course is a good thing.

Since none of the studies were randomized, controlled trials, I am trying to be realistic and not get hopes too high just yet. And while I don't think anyone is talking about PT ever correcting or reversing a curve, I would be ecstatic if we see proof going forward that this method really does halt progression.

flerc
05-22-2014, 10:07 PM
“We’re primarily using Schroth on people who are being braced — I think it will make bracing more successful,” said Dr. M. Timothy Hresko, chairman of the research society’s nonoperative committee and associate professor of orthopedic surgery at Harvard."

Certainly is also fantastic to know this people are realizing the importance in combining different principles in order to achieve the same goal! To use the principles behind braces and principles behind Schroth is sure a very good start, useful to save by now some people from surgery.. probably not all the people, but it's only a start!

mariaf
05-25-2014, 07:52 AM
I agree it is fantastic to see different methods used in conjunction with each other. Sometimes you need to use more than one tool in the toolbox!

Pooka1
05-25-2014, 08:26 AM
I agree it is fantastic to see different methods used in conjunction with each other. Sometimes you need to use more than one tool in the toolbox!

I agree with this in the abstract. But when you admit to a child there is no evidence combining treatments works, and they are faced with wearing a brace for 23 hours a day and then having to do PT during their only hour out of the brace, I can imagine the enthusiam might decrease over time.

The other thing is I would love to ask Dr. Hresko exactly why he thinks adding PT to bracing might be more effective. I would also like to ask him why braces need to be more effective when BrAIST showed 93% of the kids who wore the brace more than X hours were "successful".

flerc
05-26-2014, 11:34 PM
Her 42-degree curve was progressing, and orthopedists had told her she needed surgery.
“Within the first three days there, I was out of pain for the first time in five years,” said Ms. Mulvaney, now 19. After eight months of Schroth exercises, her curve decreased to 30 degrees, and it has since dropped to 22 degrees — a reduction extremely rare in patients her age.

Really incredible and it seems it was achieved with only Schroth (no brace). I hope to have Schroth in my country someday.

Pooka1
05-27-2014, 10:12 AM
How many hours of PT does she do a day?

Will she do PT for the rest of her life?

Will it continue to work her whole life?

mariaf
05-27-2014, 10:20 AM
“Within the first three days there, I was out of pain for the first time in five years,” said Ms. Mulvaney, now 19. After eight months of Schroth exercises, her curve decreased to 30 degrees, and it has since dropped to 22 degrees — a reduction extremely rare in patients her age.

That sort of reduction (42 degrees to 22 degrees) is indeed EXTREMELY rare and therefore it is natural that it raises many questions. My questions would be similar to Sharon's regarding how permanent the correction is, etc. You can take an x-ray five minutes after removing a brace, and you will likely get much better results than if you had waited 24-48 hours. Also, are these results documented? I'm not saying that anyone is fabricating but it definitely bears more investigation.

It seems too good to be true - but hopefully it is!

flerc
05-27-2014, 11:24 AM
“Within the first three days there, I was out of pain for the first time in five years,” said Ms. Mulvaney, now 19. After eight months of Schroth exercises, her curve decreased to 30 degrees, and it has since dropped to 22 degrees — a reduction extremely rare in patients her age.

Her orthopedist, Dr. John J. Labiak, clinical assistant professor of orthopedic surgery and neurosurgery at Stony Brook University, said he was “shocked and happily surprised” by her progress. He has begun recommending the method to other patients.

Fortunatelly this Dr. knows this case so he said what he said!.

Pooka1
05-27-2014, 12:04 PM
This amount of PT-dependent reduction does seem rare based on the reporting of only one such case by the SEAS folks when we know many, many more were doing the exercises.

And that one patient had to increase the PT more and more until she got that reduction. It is probably no coincidence that the researchers aren't clear on exactly how much PT she does a day... maybe it is more than 99% of people are willing to do. And that is for the rest of her life. I hope she doesn't get too sick to do the PT ever.

It would have been more illuminating if they admitted how many people were doing this PT wherein only ONE got that reduction.

rohrer01
05-27-2014, 01:31 PM
This may or may not have relevance.
My niece went into the Army. With the extensive calisthenic exercises they do in boot camp her curve all but disappeared. I'm surprised they took her with an obvious curve. But that's beside the point.

After she got out of the military, her curve is worse than it ever has been.

My guess is that it's not the Schroth method in particular, but good old fashioned exercise. Once the exercise was stopped, well...

This is just what Pooka1 surmised. It has to be a lifetime commitment.

Pooka1
05-27-2014, 03:10 PM
My guess is that it's not the Schroth method in particular, but good old fashioned exercise. Once the exercise was stopped, well...

Schroth was invented by a lay person. It is still a fringe treatment in Germany and surgery goes on as usual. The grandson gave up trying to make it work.

Buyer beware.

flerc
05-27-2014, 08:13 PM
At age 15, Rachel Mulvaney of Mount Sinai, N.Y., went to a clinic run by Beth Janssen, a Schroth therapist, in Stevens Point, Wis. Her 42-degree curve was progressing, and orthopedists had told her she needed surgery.

“Within the first three days there, I was out of pain for the first time in five years,” said Ms. Mulvaney, now 19. After eight months of Schroth exercises, her curve decreased to 30 degrees, and it has since dropped to 22 degrees — a reduction extremely rare in patients her age.

Four years without that curve! How many parents around the world would give everything to see this outcome on her sons! Rachel's parents may be sure that Schroth solved the scoliosis problem of her daughter .. absolute certainty sure we only may have about death.. surgical or non surgical attemps surely don't changes that fact.
I think that only a millenary discipline or a scientific one as Schroth may achieve something so fantastic. Is not the first case like this I know about Schroth, but is great to know that these evidences are now being known!.

Pooka1
05-27-2014, 09:42 PM
It is interesting to ask why only one person in the SEAS study had a large reduction or why we don't hear about more large reductions like the girl in this article. If this was common with Schroth we would have heard about it by now. But we haven't.

It could be that only a few people have curves that can physically respond to PT.

Or it could be that only a few people are willing to do enough PT to get that large reduction.

Or it could be a combination. Who knows.

mariaf
05-28-2014, 09:22 AM
It is interesting to ask why only one person in the SEAS study had a large reduction or why we don't hear about more large reductions like the girl in this article.

Agreed.

To be objective, I guess we have to ask ourselves if another method (bracing, VBS, or whatever method you choose) was shown to have great success in ONE patient, wouldn't we want to be very cautious and see how the majority responded? I think with any form of treatment, we want to see it work on a large number of patients. If this girl is simply the exception to the rule, for whatever reason, then by putting too much stock in her individual result, we risk - among other things - giving false hope to others.

Pooka1
05-28-2014, 10:02 AM
If this girl is simply the exception to the rule, for whatever reason, then by putting too much stock in her individual result, we risk - among other things - giving false hope to others.

Yes I agree. This is my worry... hope dashed (and money wasted). It's important to understand where Schroth came from, the chance it had and missed to prove itself, and what claims it is actually making.

flerc
05-28-2014, 03:30 PM
I think Schroth is probably the best PT method over the world, since I realized the scientific reasoning behind it when I have read the book. German is really a very much rational folk!.
Probably alone it cannot help all people to avoid surgery, who know?, but who may blame it?
With all the medical diagnosis possibilities existing today, a perfect non surgical treatment (according to the current knowledge and technology we have) is sure possible. A more complex and complete classification not only having into account degrees, age and Riser is needed!
In some cases something as Schroth may be enough, in others may be a brace, in others a combination of both, in others may not be enough and a brain treatment as what is being used in Spain may also be needed, in others a high bone remodeling treatment (as seems to be done with Fed machine) may also be needed.. ALL the current causes (that may be known) should to be determined and quantified in each case in order to know the best customized treatment in each case!.
Anyway is really a good start!

rohrer01
05-28-2014, 06:50 PM
My niece didn't do a specific program of exercises tailored to her scoliosis. She went through the exact same boot camp drill that every other female soldier goes through. My sister said her scoliosis was no longer visible. Of course, there are no x-rays to "prove" how much reduction she got. She was skeletally mature when when she went in...got a huge reduction...quit the extensive exercising when she came out and curve progressed even worse than before. IF she had kept up the boot camp style exercises for life, she would probably have had success in keeping her curve at bay.

But people get sick, women get pregnant, etc.. These things don't allow them to keep up with the activities that reduced their curves. It's my opinion that her curve progressed even more because she had a bunch of kids. She has the typical right thoracic curve. It's not the having kids per se that caused it to get worse, but the fatigue that comes along with motherhood that disallows most women from having a military type exercise regimen.

I'm not convinced that "Schroth" is the answer. I believe that exercise helps. It has to be a lot of hard exercise that keeps one in really fit condition.

flerc
05-28-2014, 10:22 PM
A more complex and complete classification not only having into account degrees, age and Riser is needed!

Certainly Schroth within PT parameters is extremely customized!
According the type of curve is the exercise indicated. The same exercise may be good in some cases and bad in others. I think is the only one method taking into account those differences. People doing any kind of exercise without all that knowledge, not only has very low odds of improving but also may be damaged. At least they should to read the Schroth book.

Pooka1
05-29-2014, 07:44 AM
Schroth was invented by a lay person and it shows.

The inventor's grandson, a trained person, had about 10 years and at least 30,000 patients to try to show it works to avoid surgery. He failed to do so and now only works with bracing.

At some point absence of evidence is evidence of absence and I think we are at that point with Schroth. If it worked Weiss would have been able to show that. But he wasn't able to show that.

rohrer01
05-29-2014, 11:13 AM
Weiss still refers people to Schroth clinics on his website. He studied to be a doctor not a PT. My interpretation of that is that he probably wanted to do more doctoring. His practice is as a Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation doctor. That's the primary expertise of the doctor that I see. Weiss focuses on rehabilitating children AFTER surgery now. Since he's done a few of those surgeries, he REALLY knows what's involved. Maybe he didn't have the stomach for that part, who knows. But he definitely keeps his practice centered around scoliosis.

I think that pain is an inhibitive factor that keeps some people with scoliosis from doing calisthenic type exercises. I just know that the untargeted exercises straightened my niece up. She had to push through a ton of pain in the military. She had stress fractures in both of her feet. She just tightened up her boots really tight and kept going. They would have dc'd her if they found out.

I do know that AFTER the military, her spine hurt her so badly that she called me in tears because she couldn't even get out of bed. She wanted me to find a specialist for her. She had never called me about her scoliosis before. The pain eventually settled down and now she has flare-ups and constant low-grade pain.

mariaf
05-29-2014, 11:33 AM
IF she had kept up the boot camp style exercises for life, she would probably have had success in keeping her curve at bay.

But people get sick, women get pregnant, etc.. These things don't allow them to keep up with the activities that reduced their curves.

That's so true. I can't imagine anyone keeping up boot-camp style exercises (or any other regiment of that nature) forever. As you point out, life gets in the way.

Some days I can barely find time to shave my legs :-)

flerc
05-29-2014, 10:21 PM
I was absolutely decided to "force" my daughter to do some exercises I think should to be perfect in order to achieve a good bone remodeling and others to strengthen the abdominal muscles, something I'm sure is necessary to hold the spine but after seeing these thread I began these days to reread the Schroth book.. Now I realize again that scoliosis is a different universe.. what sure is excelent in a normal body may be disastrous in an scoliotic body and how much absurd is for someone not having the Schroth's knowledge to think what may be good or not, what may be possible and what not. And I'm not sure to understand this book.. is extremly complex for me. I said that to a very much recognized physiatrist and she said me 'if it is difficult for me I don't want to imagine what may be for you'.
People having the chance to access Schroth method should not miss it. I wish to have that lucky.

LindaRacine
07-21-2015, 01:35 PM
Fierc...

Drop it now, or we'll go back to deleting posts and closing threads. This argument has occurred far too many times and we're all bored with it.

--Linda

flerc
07-21-2015, 04:54 PM
The argument is to not agree with what Pooka1 says? Ok.. you have the power here, I deleted it.

carolmr
10-27-2015, 02:52 AM
"This may or may not have relevance.
My niece went into the Army. With the extensive calisthenic exercises they do in boot camp her curve all but disappeared. I'm surprised they took her with an obvious curve. But that's beside the point." - rorher

I find this fascinating. I've never heard of exercises helping scoliosis patients that weren't targeted specifically for scoliosis. I assume your niece was quite young when she entered the Army. Unfortunately, I doubt that calisthenics would work on older scoliosis patients.

burdle
10-27-2015, 07:33 AM
Why are we all so accepting that things won't work for older patients? Why are we not demanding a voice and a treatment path for pain at the very least that does not involve having to convince medics along the supply chain all the time that we have pain and don't just want to be fobbed off with pills.

I am so tired of having to explain to GPs and complementary therapists in UK about scoliosis and the pain it causes - and having to deal with their own mis-information, mis-conceptions and plain ignorance just because I cannot point to a recognised treatment path. Is there any other condition that is treated with such indifference?

Pooka1
10-27-2015, 10:02 AM
Why are we all so accepting that things won't work for older patients? Why are we not demanding a voice and a treatment path for pain at the very least that does not involve having to convince medics along the supply chain all the time that we have pain and don't just want to be fobbed off with pills.

I am so tired of having to explain to GPs and complementary therapists in UK about scoliosis and the pain it causes - and having to deal with their own mis-information, mis-conceptions and plain ignorance just because I cannot point to a recognised treatment path. Is there any other condition that is treated with such indifference?

If you are asking that these treatments be formally studied then I agree with you but nobody seems to want to do it. And the people who will do it like Fishman (MD in physiatry, not orthopedics) and his magic yoga position are not trained in the field (or in research at all it seems) and the papers they produce are flawed.

Adults are free to try anything and everything on their own though.

carolmr
10-29-2015, 08:49 AM
"Why are we all so accepting that things won't work for older patients? Why are we not demanding a voice and a treatment path for pain at the very least that does not involve having to convince medics along the supply chain all the time that we have pain and don't just want to be fobbed off with pills." - burdle

My fault. I always assume that the older we get, the more difficult to "change" the spine. Youth is a wonderful thing and I think it just helps when it comes to treating certain conditions. Maybe I'm wrong; I hope I'm wrong. I just can't imagine being able to do strenuous calisthenics at my age - 61. But if I thought it would help, I would certainly try. I agree with you about doctors just handing out pain pills to older patients. I've had doctors tell me that there's nothing that can be done about my scoliosis at this point, at this age, so I just have to live with the pain. It's frustrating. I'm in constant mild pain and I'm getting more of a hunchback - just like my dad had. He lived to be 85, but his scoliosis affected his lung capacity which worried his doctors when he needed heart surgery.

flerc
10-31-2015, 12:20 PM
There are few studies about non surgical options but some of them showed even reduction in adults too. I know about SEAS and the modified yoga side plank allowing amazing reductions.. surely not permanent (who knows?) but the study is clear about the real that reductions were. Of course is not necessary to be a Dr. to realize that this exigent excercise should to be done in only one side.
And what about Spinecor for adults?? A woman over 60 y.o. here had a good outcome.