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View Full Version : "Driving people away" - who, why, and does it matter?



Pooka1
05-25-2013, 07:57 AM
If asking for evidence for claims drives people away then I don't see the problem.

If they have evidence then they will post it. They will WANT to post it. It won't be like pulling teeth. People being driven away is an imaginary problem in terms of mattering to patients and parents. No evidence of treatment efficacy is lost because the people going away seem to be doing so to avoid being asked for evidence. They may feel driven away if they don't want to be asked for evidence.

Again, I don't see the problem. People are free to discuss what they are doing. If they are trying something that has no known evidence of efficacy then they should be told that. As soon as they make claims of efficacy, the requests for evidence should start rolling in. Conservative and alternative methods aspire to be a science. They should want to prove their efficacy instead of it being pulling teeth. People objecting to this are not doing science. Martha Hawes obviously would never object to people asking to see her radiographs to back up her claims. And she certainly would never think to publish without radiographs. You could have invented the most effective PT treatment in the world but if you don't have radiographs proving it, people have to take the claim on faith. Maybe the inventors are satisfied with just helping people who happen to hear about the method and take a leap of faith when they could be helping many, many more people if they publish. Maybe just picking off select people to help is okay rather than trying to help more people.

They can come here to let people know and to recruit but once the claims of efficacy are made, then evidence is required.

Nobody should be driven away for stating a new treatment, admitting there is no evidence of efficacy yet, and offering to help people learn the method to see if it is effective. Nobody should be driven away for repeating what an alternative treatment purveyor told them about curve regression. That is not happening here. What is happening here is pressure to pony up evidence of efficacy claims that drive people away.

Losing people who don't agree evidence is required for claims is an imaginary problem. People may be leaving but that is no loss to the community. Science is the only game in town and will win because it works.

Pooka1
07-12-2013, 06:16 AM
People remaining silent - who, why, and does it matter?

Same answer.

Susie*Bee
07-12-2013, 09:14 AM
Sharon, I will respond, but in the general sense-- not under the "non-surgical treatments" category. If I remember correctly, the evidence asked for was with a brand new member, who felt like she was being attacked. The forum, to my understanding, was originally created to be a place where anyone either with scoliosis or a family member with scoliosis could come and find refuge-- to meet up with other "scolis". People such as myself do not ever see anyone else (well, I see one other person) with scoliosis, so it is a world of "aloneness" out here. On the forum we become a family, friendships (or friendly foes, at times) are formed, and we can let loose, share our problems that we can't with our own families, and bond in many ways. It is a place of understanding that is not to be found anywhere else. To that end, it should be open to anyone, no matter how intelligent or ignorant their "scientific" posts may be. This is not just a professional board, nor was it intended to be. When you (not singular) drive people away, you deprive them of perhaps the only source of community available. This is the sole reason I am addicted to this site. It is my second family, in a sense. I "love" many of the people. I think back to some of the ones from the past and wonder how they are doing and pray that their lives are productive. I wondered if NZ girl was affected by the massive earthquakes in New Zealand. I wonder how Aussie's Mom (?) little girl is doing after her surgery failed and she developed crankshafting. I worry about those who still have pain after several years. This is what the forum is about JUST AS MUCH AS the science and research. If you took a cross section of the intelligence of the people of the U.S., you would not find the caliber that you desire here on the forum. In that sense, you may be a little prejudicial when confronting people in a harsh way.

I believe it is better to welcome people into the forum, let them feel they can belong and be part of the "group" that will encourage them during their tough times, and if you disagree with them, do so in a way that doesn't make them on the defensive or drive them away. "That is very interesting! I'd be curious to see your x-rays sometime when you get used to the forum and can post them." Everyone needs a sense of respect and a feeling that others will listen to them with an open mind. When it is a subject that you know is totally false, then instead of getting into a schoolhouse brawl over it, just say that you don't see the scientific data to back that up-- and it would help if that could be supplied. If not, then there's no point going on and on with the thread. Just end it with something like "we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, as I don't see any supporting documentation." And let it go. Again, I am not singling you out-- "you" is in the plural sense.

Sharon-- you live in an elite circle of intelligentsia where I think you cannot understand people with lower IQs. I live in an area with many "hillbilly" types. It's not unusual to see a sign as you go down the road that says "used tirs for sale", etc. (that's tires), and people don't speak well either. That doesn't mean they don't have heart and have feelings, just the same as you and I do. Try the old "Indian" saying about understanding others-- you must walk two moons in their mocassins-- put yourself in their shoes. Change your mindset over to theirs for a minute and see if you can picture what is going on there. So no-- I don't agree that as soon as they make claims you should start "pressuring them for evidence" And I don't agree that "science is the only game in town and it will always win because it works." Life is more than pure science.

rohrer01
07-12-2013, 12:11 PM
This is an interesting thread. I can totally see both sides of this issue. Sometimes there are people that post that seem like they are planted by an organization. I'm not saying the woman in question was, at all. But if someone was encouraged to post here by a purveyor of alternative medicine, then they should be warned by such purveyor. I've seen advertisements from that particular purveyor. They use "testimonials" to do their advertisements instead of actual evidence. It seems quite convincing until you step back and wonder why they have to resort to happy consumers rather than hard facts. That kind of Tom-foolery shouldn't go on here.

If the person is honestly convinced, then developing a friendly atmosphere for them would be the best way to reach them with the fact that they have been deceived. NO ONE wants to be told right away that they've been taken for a ride. It makes them feel like an idiot. The first response most people have to that kind of treatment is hostility, even among the educated. I've seen at least on person with a Ph.D. go off on a violent tirade because his thoughts were challenged. I was in his class. When that happened, I dropped his class like a hot potato! I didn't want to be "educated" by a person with such an illiterate response to a challenge. Yelling doesn't make a point. This person that supposedly left the forum resorted to such tactics. However, that "may" have been avoided if she felt welcomed. It may not have been avoided, too. The nature of that departure was more rude than any post asking for evidence.

So, in retrospect, we should make an effort to be more kind to people for the sake of the human aspect of this forum, which is HUGE. Then tactfully explain that when claims of efficacy are made, they need to support that with evidence. But keep in mind that their purveyors don't use evidence, so they may think that a testimonial is all that is required. It's a touchy situation, especially if you don't know if you are dealing with a "plant". If the woman had been reasonable, she would have continued to be friendly with those who were friendly with her and ignored those that she felt were attacking her. So, I guess I'm left with the feeling that if someone is so closed minded that they leave so quickly, then is it really a loss to the forum? They will find their support network from other people that they meet during their treatment sessions.

Another thought popped into my head just now. LOL ... The thread stands for millions to read. It's there forever. That could be a tactic to "invade" the forum and leave a nasty taste for people. What if the purveyor did plant that conversation? Then they could direct other customers to that thread and tell them how awful and closed minded the "scientific community" is. It may work for some individuals. Just a random thought. It could backfire, too. So, probably a stupid random thought. =)

susancook
07-12-2013, 03:39 PM
Sharon, I will respond, but in the general sense-- not under the "non-surgical treatments" category. If I remember correctly, the evidence asked for was with a brand new member, who felt like she was being attacked. The forum, to my understanding, was originally created to be a place where anyone either with scoliosis or a family member with scoliosis could come and find refuge-- to meet up with other "scolis". People such as myself do not ever see anyone else (well, I see one other person) with scoliosis, so it is a world of "aloneness" out here. On the forum we become a family, friendships (or friendly foes, at times) are formed, and we can let loose, share our problems that we can't with our own families, and bond in many ways. It is a place of understanding that is not to be found anywhere else. To that end, it should be open to anyone, no matter how intelligent or ignorant their "scientific" posts may be. This is not just a professional board, nor was it intended to be. When you (not singular) drive people away, you deprive them of perhaps the only source of community available. This is the sole reason I am addicted to this site. It is my second family, in a sense. I "love" many of the people. I think back to some of the ones from the past and wonder how they are doing and pray that their lives are productive. I wondered if NZ girl was affected by the massive earthquakes in New Zealand. I wonder how Aussie's Mom (?) little girl is doing after her surgery failed and she developed crankshafting. I worry about those who still have pain after several years. This is what the forum is about JUST AS MUCH AS the science and research. If you took a cross section of the intelligence of the people of the U.S., you would not find the caliber that you desire here on the forum. In that sense, you may be a little prejudicial when confronting people in a harsh way.

I believe it is better to welcome people into the forum, let them feel they can belong and be part of the "group" that will encourage them during their tough times, and if you disagree with them, do so in a way that doesn't make them on the defensive or drive them away. "That is very interesting! I'd be curious to see your x-rays sometime when you get used to the forum and can post them." Everyone needs a sense of respect and a feeling that others will listen to them with an open mind. When it is a subject that you know is totally false, then instead of getting into a schoolhouse brawl over it, just say that you don't see the scientific data to back that up-- and it would help if that could be supplied. If not, then there's no point going on and on with the thread. Just end it with something like "we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, as I don't see any supporting documentation." And let it go. Again, I am not singling you out-- "you" is in the plural sense.

Sharon-- you live in an elite circle of intelligentsia where I think you cannot understand people with lower IQs. I live in an area with many "hillbilly" types. It's not unusual to see a sign as you go down the road that says "used tirs for sale", etc. (that's tires), and people don't speak well either. That doesn't mean they don't have heart and have feelings, just the same as you and I do. Try the old "Indian" saying about understanding others-- you must walk two moons in their mocassins-- put yourself in their shoes. Change your mindset over to theirs for a minute and see if you can picture what is going on there. So no-- I don't agree that as soon as they make claims you should start "pressuring them for evidence" And I don't agree that "science is the only game in town and it will always win because it works." Life is more than pure science.

Susie Bee: You have an eloquent ability to convey the feelings of inclusiveness and communication. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I see this blog as mostly a friendly "help each other" with helpful hints and support. I learn so much from other people's experiences and SO appreciated the support that I receive from the members. I laugh when I read the adolescent blog and some of them are back in school after 3 weeks! I do not see this blog as a professional blog, but do appreciate the postings of new research studies.

There are many things that we do that do not appear to have a research basis, but that we take for granted. One of these is wearing a brace postop. I thought that everyone wore a brace postop, but after reading this blog, I have found out that there are many excellent surgeons who do not have their patients wear braces. I have worked as a researcher on NIH grants, so I consider myself basically an evidence based person in making choices. Having said that, in dealing with hot flashes earlier in my life, I took herbal products which had good anecdotal evidence [from my fellow hot flashin' mamas] but little/no evidence based medical research. That was OK with me, but I did that knowing the level of research upon which I was basing my decision.

I believe that there should never be room on this blog for arrogance and put down....nor pissing matches over my credentials are better than yours. We each have a personal story to share and sometimes cry about and all of us have needed reassurance at times.

My doctor's RN, Joanne, at my initial visit, told me not to go on line to the scoliosis blog as they had horror stories. I sat there quietly, knowing that I was already enmeshed in this blog for the good, that is for the support and helpful hints. [Folding reachers....who knew, thanks Irina!] As Susie said, I am also isolated and depend on my scoliosis friends to help me figure this whole journey out. If it were not for this blog, I would not have found my totally awesome surgeon, Dr. Serena Hu! Maybe I should tell Nurse Joanne about that!

Susan

Pooka1
07-12-2013, 10:48 PM
It helps nobody to let stand a claim for which no evidence is proffered. How many millions of dollars and years wasted and compensatory lumbars structuralized must there be before we simply ask for evidence for claims? Nobody is being asked to leave but it is instructive that people do resist calls for evidence and leave rather than proffer any evidence for their claims. It is very ironic when some of these people cite Hawes because there is no way anyone would know who Hawes is absent her posting her E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E in the form of radiographs. If she tried to make a claim absent the radiographs, she would be viewed as a crackpot and correctly so.

How much further wastage of time and money should be countenanced? Adults can do anything they like in my opinion but the kids are a different story for the same reason the courts step in on other faith claims. Are folks here against speaking up for science and against faith? Really?

There is a reason the BBB exists you know.

susancook
07-12-2013, 11:05 PM
[QUOTE=Pooka1;152256]It helps nobody to let stand a claim for which no evidence is proffered.

I have not seen multiple evidence based research studies demonstrating that wearing a brace changes post operative outcomes such as subsequent fractures. So, you are saying that I should consider not wearing my brace?
Susan

Pooka1
07-13-2013, 08:23 AM
It helps nobody to let stand a claim for which no evidence is proffered.

I have not seen multiple evidence based research studies demonstrating that wearing a brace changes post operative outcomes such as subsequent fractures. So, you are saying that I should consider not wearing my brace?
Susan

Why don't you ask Hu that and report back?

In the case of bracing kids, because bracing is the standard of care despite lack of good evidence, I think it is purely defensive. Maybe that is the reason adults are braced post-op also. I have no idea.

LindaRacine
07-13-2013, 11:28 AM
I don't remember if Joe O'Brien and I had any discussions about the purpose of these forums. I suspect that we didn't, and probably had different ideas of what they should be. As moderator of the MIT listserv (which was really the predecessor of these forums, I can tell you that the purpose was to get accurate information to the masses. I'm guessing that Joe probably thought that the purpose was more to connect patients. I think it can be both.

If we let people post anything and everything without challenging unproved claims, the forums will become a wasteland. Do we sometimes go overboard in our hurry to optimize the quality? Perhaps. But, in most cases, participants usually seem to try to be tactful initially.

Participants have been threatening to go away since the exchange of information via the Internet began. In many cases, it seems to be a ploy to get sympathy, and the participants only rarely actually follow through on the threat. If someone does go away, I think they probably eventually find a new home with people who are less concerned about quality.

There are a few people here who remember the long and contentious debate about the Copes brace. Like what probably happens to Sharon sometimes, I took an incredible amount of daily abuse from participants who felt it was wrong to challenge the claims that people were making. Eventually, Copes was run out of town, and was imprisoned for insurance fraud. Had I not been willing to take the abuse, a lot more people might have been taken in by the fraudulent claims. So, I will admit that I have a little bias toward those who value science more than political correctness.

Maybe both sides can be a little more tolerant, but I'm not holding my breath.

Linda

Pooka1
07-13-2013, 12:40 PM
If someone does go away, I think they probably eventually find a new home with people who are less concerned about quality.

Agreed. I think some people come on here looking for faith healing, the opposite of science.

I am almost past caring about adults who should know better but there are innocent children involved many times.

Pooka1
07-13-2013, 12:42 PM
The other thing is I do think some people disagree with the concept of a BBB and it carries through on fora like this one.

At that point, all you can do is stop, stare a little, and move on.

Susie*Bee
07-14-2013, 06:05 PM
Agreed. I think some people come on here looking for faith healing, the opposite of science.

I am almost past caring about adults who should know better but there are innocent children involved many times.

Sharon-- I would have to disagree and say that faith may be an integral part of the make-up of the person and they come here for many other reasons. It's a different mindset that you can't park at the door or separate from your being. Just because you have faith doesn't mean you can't acknowledge the science of medicine and be knowledgeable (in a layman's scope) in scoliosis studies. Again, I'll go back to my statement about walking in someone else's shoes and leave it at that.

curvycakes
07-21-2013, 09:28 PM
I like this thread. If I may add my two cents -

I can see both sides here, and I have been on both sides. Before my fusion, I was involved in both Copes & Clear, but was more active on this forum during the Clear treatment. I believe it was and is a farce. At the time, however, I was SO excited because I was seeing improvements (although minimal compared to surgery) and actually felt a great connection with the program. I remember talking with someone on this forum who was apparently around my age, female, and had AMAZING results with Clear. She would post quite frequently (Iím sure I could find it somewhere) and it gave me such hope. I worked harder, I was excited, and I was optimistic. Didnít work out in the end, but having a better outlook made the blow easier to deal with.

That being said, I wouldnít be surprised if she was a plant by the organization because she dropped off the face of the forum once people asked for proof. I even tried emailing her and never received a response. I was naive and a little too trusting, but mostly desperate to find someone who I could express my excitement (and frustrations!) with regarding Clear. Perhaps the reason I didnít exactly find that on this forum was because the treatment had a small following at the time, but itís important to mention that thereís an understandable preference for the surgical method here. I think the biggest issue is that not everyone understands this outlook.

So yes, it is extremely important to ask for proof to help provide a better understanding to the parents willing to believe anything time after time, who end up paying with both money and emotions, and of course--the kids. Pooka said it best - these claims need to have evidence. Without them, they arenít truly helping anyone.
But I want to echo Rohrer in urging everyone to be more aware of how delicate these situations can sometimes become. Thereís a fine line between being condescending & providing facts, loud and clear. On an online forum, itís even harder for that line to be erased. The mission is to provide accurate information, but maybe some more attention on how itís being communicated would be nice...and could cultivate a better understanding between these two "sides".

I feel like one of those hippie guidance counselors, but the accessibility of the information wonít make a difference if itís coming across in the wrong way.

Pooka1
07-23-2013, 06:59 AM
Thanks for your thoughts. I hope others comment also.

What's going on here is that people realize they don't have evidence and therefore their only response is to go away, usually in a huff with a dramatic announcement preceding.

When you have no evidence, there is no possible wording asking for evidence that will not offend. It is not possible to ask for evidence from these people in a way that they will not take offense. Taking offense is the only possible response when you don't have evidence. For these people, there is social taboo against asking for evidence.

Anyone who claims they don't need to pony up radiographs as evidence is being evasive FULL STOP. If they had evidence, they would proffer it without ever being asked. If you have to ask someone for evidence, it's very likely they don't have any.

mariaf
07-23-2013, 12:28 PM
Curvycakes,

Thank you so much for opening up and sharing your unique perspective with us. I'm sure it will prove helpful to many people who read it.

Sharon,

Well said. My feeling is that if I had proof that something worked, I would shout it from the ROOFTOPS in an effort to help others. It's just a natural, human emotion to want to say "here, look at this, it helped me so much - you should consider looking into it". This is true whether the subject is scoliosis/radiographs or anything else. My view is that folks here basically want to help each other so why wouldn't one share the evidence, if it existed......

susancook
07-23-2013, 01:02 PM
Curvycakes, love your comment about being a "hippie counselor". Your comments are well stated.
Thanks for chiming in.
Susan

Pooka1
01-08-2014, 11:49 PM
There was some whinging about the need for a private group for PT and bracing. This is an imaginary problem. So I'm bumping this.

flerc
01-09-2014, 12:14 AM
If there is some need here is about a moderator not allowing you to defame non surgical options at least in the pathetic way you are doing it.


Is incredible in a new thread all what you may say according your irrational thinking.

Certainly it would not be needed to be a scientist (as you are saying you are), to realize that only someone with not a good background and training in logics may claims something of all of that.

If you don’t know about some case you say ‘there is no evidence’, if you don’t know why something works you say it cannot works, if you have not idea about something, you talk as if you know about it and if certainly there are reasons to think that may works, you say that there are not and only may works if it would be magic.
If this forum would be moderate in a serious way, you could not be in non surgical sections.

Do you know what is a brace, how it works? Why are effectives in stopping and even reducing curves in kids/teens? Do you know what is the Spinecor? Do you know how it works? What do you know about physiology? What do you know about something in order to say what you are saying here? It seems that absolutely nothing of course!

Just only a recent example on thousands.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 12:23 AM
On imaginary problems.

My factual comment in the thread today was that a large contingency of patients pursuing all manner of non-surgical options has left this forum to create their own private forum. Since that is a demonstrable fact, I can only imagine that you're saying the *problem* is imaginary. It may well be an imaginary problem for you, but for myself, I greatly miss their contribution. It is not an imaginary problem for me.

flerc
01-09-2014, 12:38 AM
Certainly her unmoral work is very much pathetic but also effective.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 08:41 AM
If people had evidence they would be back here posting it. In the meantime, nobody is missing anything.

Science is the only game in town.

flerc
01-09-2014, 08:59 AM
Who may want to post their cases with someone as you doing what you are doing. I have recieved PMs about excelent outocomes and saying they don't want to post knowing what you would do then.
Excellent work! Sure you are proud!

flerc
01-09-2014, 09:03 AM
Science is the only game in town.


Someone knows how do you say 'CARADURA' in English?

The same request again.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 09:04 AM
Who may want to post their cases with someone as you doing what you are doing.

I'm not talking about posts about cases in general. I'm talking about before and after radiographs like we see so often in the surgical section and like are conspicuous by their absence in the non-surgical sections.

Do you think anyone would know who Martha Hawes is if she didn't continually post her radiographs?

Are people posting before and after radiographs on the private group showing improvement like Hawes does?

flerc
01-09-2014, 09:24 AM
I'm not in any private goup, I don't know. Probably people just only trust in what they says.

flerc
01-09-2014, 09:25 AM
And of course only you may expecting people posting their Rx here.

mariaf
01-09-2014, 09:26 AM
they don't want to post knowing what you would do then.

Hi flerc,

I know everyone is different, and you haven't been on the forum as long as some of us. So for you and others who only joined in the past few years, I want to share something. When I first joined this group and someone would ask about VBS, there were a couple of members (one in particular) who would relentlessly attack me saying that the surgery was experimental, etc. I explained over and over that: (a) I was just disseminating information and folks could made whatever decision they wanted based on that information; and (b) that I had complete faith in the procedure, so much so that I allowed it to be performed on my son.

The point is that I stuck around because I was an open book when it came to VBS. I wanted those parents who were interested (and for whom VBS might be a good option) not to have to find out about it by accident like I did. If someone had questions on VBS, I would either try to answer it myself, or if I didn't know the answer, I would try to get the info from the doctor(s) themselves. Those who first jumped on board and began performing VBS were guys like Betz & company, Hresko, Luhmann, Oswald, Vitale, Skaggs, Schwend, etc. so I was more than comfortable sharing information that came from guys with reputations like theirs. I never made any false claims or 'guaranteed' that VBS would work, but I stood by my belief that it was a viable option for some patients and had nothing to hide.

Maybe I am more stubborn that most (I'm sure my husband wouldn't argue that point), but I can't see all these people leaving the forum simply because someone questioned them or asked for proof of what they were saying - or even in their view, was giving them a hard time. I would think it would be more important to make sure others knew about any options that had a chance of helping others.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 09:32 AM
Hi flerc,

I know everyone is different, and you haven't been on the forum as long as some of us. So for you and others who only joined in the past few years, I want to share something. When I first joined this group and someone would ask about VBS, there were a couple of members (one in particular) who would relentlessly attack me saying that the surgery was experimental, etc. I explained over and over that: (a) I was just disseminating information and folks could made whatever decision they wanted based on that information; and (b) that I had complete faith in the procedure, so much so that I allowed it to be performed on my son.

The point is that I stuck around because I was an open book when it came to VBS. I wanted those parents who were interested (and for whom VBS might be a good option) not to have to find out about it by accident like I did. If someone had questions on VBS, I would either try to answer it myself, or if I didn't know the answer, I would try to get the info from the doctor(s) themselves. Those who first jumped on board and began performing VBS were guys like Betz & company, Hresko, Luhmann, Oswald, Vitale, Skaggs, Schwend, etc. so I was more than comfortable sharing information that came from guys with reputations like theirs. I never made any false claims or 'guaranteed' that VBS would work, but I stood by my belief that it was a viable option for some patients and had nothing to hide.

Maybe I am more stubborn that most (I'm sure my husband wouldn't argue that point), but I can't see all these people leaving the forum simply because someone questioned them or asked for proof of what they were saying - or even in their view, was giving them a hard time. I would think it would be more important to make sure others knew about any options that had a chance of helping others.

Maria, nicely stated. Apt response.

And of course it is unimaginable that you would leave in a huff if someone asked you to post before and after radiographs as we have seen so often in the PT section. ;-)

hdugger
01-09-2014, 09:45 AM
As is so often the case in these discussion, I no longer have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

You restarted this discussion, it appears, in response to my saying that I missed the contribution of all of those regular members who were pursuing conservative treatment who have left this forum and joined a private group. Yet, now, you appear to be talking about something else altogether - the "show us your xrays!" greeting which appeared to make several new members quickly depart the forum. Again, these are clearly clearly, *not* the members I was discussing, and these people did not join the private forum I was discussing. But, no matter, apparently we're discussing something else altogether.

So, assuming now that you're not actually responding to what I was talking about but discussing this other thing instead, let's examine your hypothesis on that topic more closely.

Your hypotheses: People talking about their experience are "making claims" (and not just sharing their experience, as one might normally understand it). Because you believe they are "making claims" you also believe that they should show evidence to back up those claims. Immediately upon entering the forum. As a kind of how-d-do. Thus, I suppose, every patient who ever entered the forum saying that they'd gotten a great correction would be "making a claim" and, thus, be greeted with "Well, let's see how great we think it is. Let me eyeball your xrays to make sure you're not hiding anything" which is, more or less, how the people you're discussing were greeted.

OK, well, let's try out that hypothesis in the surgical section. The next new patient who shows up claiming they've gotten a "great correction" Flerc and I will charge in there and demand to see their xrays to determine for ourselves just how great we think their correction is and let them know that they *must* show us their xray to prove that they're not "hiding something" with their bold claims. Let's see how that goes over.

[Maria's post slips in: The difference, IMO, is that you are talking about a single person's response. I'm assuming other people were supportive or you would not have stuck around. In the case I'm describing, there was a four-person pile up after the first post of people demanding xrays, suggesting people were hiding something, and openly discussing whether or not this or that poster was a plant. One would have to be *very* hardy indeed to stick around after that. I'm hardy myself, and even I would have left. Why would *anyone* remain in a place where they were so greeted?]

flerc
01-09-2014, 09:46 AM
When I first joined this group and someone would ask about VBS, there were a couple of members (one in particular) who would relentlessly attack me saying that the surgery was experimental, etc.

Did Pooka1 attack you as she did with hundreds of members here until they left the forum? I only will believe that if I you quote it.

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 09:51 AM
Going back to the original discussion here:
the CLEAR people take x-rays like twice a visit? Don't you think that a person could be persuaded to believe that actual correction was made because of the before and afters? If I were involved in that, I would have posted those x-rays as my "proof". I would have been corrected about the need to wait some time before an "after" x-ray, which in turn would have caused me to take a second look at what I was doing.

I always thought the "Non-Surgical" section was the place to talk about stuff like that and the "Research" section was more the evidence based section relating to actual studies that either prove or disprove a certain therapy or breakthrough WITH REGARD TO SCOLIOSIS. Even with that, studies can contradict and often need to be repeated several times before they are accepted, even by the scientific community.

But, even in that section (Research), there are claims being made that have no basis in actual scoliosis research. I think those claiming such things should take it to the Non-Surgical part of the forum. Just my opinion. Maybe that section should be renamed "Scoliosis Research" so it doesn't get tainted with all of these hypothesis. I'm just as guilty for participating in those threads, so I'm not condemning any one person. However, in my own defense, I posted a research paper having to do with surgical outcomes in the "Surgical" part of the forum because I felt that it best fit that section. There were a lot of questions flying around about outcomes at the time and I was considering surgery for myself. Unfortunately, I scared or angered a few people who thought I was anti-surgery. I'm not anti-anything if it really works! It's a risk/benefit ratio of what you are willing to risk to gain a so-called benefit whether it's proven or unproven. Alternative treatments also carry long term risks. There are NO guarantees with anything in this life.

flerc
01-09-2014, 09:55 AM
There are NO guarantees with anything in this life.

Of course! And scoliosis is farr to be the exception.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 10:04 AM
Going back to the original discussion here:
the CLEAR people take x-rays like twice a visit? Don't you think that a person could be persuaded to believe that actual correction was made because of the before and afters? If I were involved in that, I would have posted those x-rays as my "proof". I would have been corrected about the need to wait some time before an "after" x-ray, which in turn would have caused me to take a second look at what I was doing.

Good point.


I always thought the "Non-Surgical" section was the place to talk about stuff like that and the "Research" section was more the evidence based section relating to actual studies that either prove or disprove a certain therapy or breakthrough WITH REGARD TO SCOLIOSIS. Even with that, studies can contradict and often need to be repeated several times before they are accepted, even by the scientific community.

I agree with this.


But, even in that section (Research), there are claims being made that have no basis in actual scoliosis research. I think those claiming such things should take it to the Non-Surgical part of the forum. Just my opinion. Maybe that section should be renamed "Scoliosis Research" so it doesn't get tainted with all of these hypothesis. I'm just as guilty for participating in those threads, so I'm not condemning any one person. However, in my own defense, I posted a research paper having to do with surgical outcomes in the "Surgical" part of the forum because I felt that it best fit that section. There were a lot of questions flying around about outcomes at the time and I was considering surgery for myself. Unfortunately, I scared or angered a few people who thought I was anti-surgery. I'm not anti-anything if it really works! It's a risk/benefit ratio of what you are willing to risk to gain a so-called benefit whether it's proven or unproven. Alternative treatments also carry long term risks. There are NO guarantees with anything in this life.

I don't see the point of taking counterfactual information out of one section and putting it in another. It doesn't belong on a forum to help people. The armchair biochemistry and genetics going on here is breath-taking.

A problem that never seems to go away is people who are evidence-based get labeled as a "lover" of whatever has the most evidence. And then people don't realize it is not because they randomly "love" that treatment but rather because that treatment has the most evidence of efficacy.

There is a war on science and reason and ration and some of the casualties are people desperately trying to understand a serious medical condition. The chickens are coming home to roost.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 10:04 AM
Maria,

I understand your point, but, as I said in the last post, I don't think even you would have survived the greeting in question. Nor would I. To me, that's a problem

Here's what I'd suggest, instead, as a way of greeting people for whom you are not certain about the veracity of what they're saying.

First, *greet* them. Don't frisk them at the door. Welcome them the way you'd welcome anyone else.

If they make an obvious misstatement (as one of the posters did about surgical risk) correct it with facts.

If they go way beyond their own experience to suggest that such and such is guaranteed to work for everyone, correct them again with facts.

But, unless they're doing that - unless they're boldly proclaiming that such and such is true for everyone, then they're just trying to share their own experience and you treat them like anyone else trying to share their own experience. If what they say varies with what you know, then you (gently) correct. But you don't make them feel as if they've just wandered into the worst bar in town.

What concerned me, particularly in one of the cases, was that the claim was really not all that bold (the child still had a significant curve after CLEAR treatment), AND the child had another medical problem (I believe it was diabetes) AND the parent seemed utterly convinced that surgery (which was likely in the cards for her kid, becuase the curve was sitll significant) was going to kill her child. I do not find such a participant to be "The Sworn Enemy of Truth." I find such a participant to be exactly the kind of person you want to hold on to because she *needs* support. Because she has a child with multiple problems who was likely going to require a surgery that she believed would kill her. The whole thing just kind of broke my heart. Would it *not* have been possible to more gently greet that woman so that she could, possibly, have been helped? Was it really necessary to drive her back to the place where people were telling her that surgery would kill her child?

Anyway, that was my concern, in that case. People were so concerned with minimizing the (I believe) small risk to this forum posed by the woman's misconceptions, that they ended up exposing her kid to much more serious risks.One can be faithful to the truth and still find a way to support someone who does not have as clear an understanding of scoliosis. That is all I was saying, in that case.

flerc
01-09-2014, 10:05 AM
But, even in that section (Research), there are claims being made that have no basis in actual scoliosis research.

Sure! You may quote hundreds or probably thousands belonging to Pooka1.. just only in this sections.. if you consider also the rest of non surgical sections, surely you have thousands!

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 10:05 AM
Of course! And scoliosis is farr to be the exception.

Yes, I agree. There is also such a diverse group of people coming to this forum from all around the world where cultures vary and manners vary. For this reason we need to be extra cautious about how we treat each other. There are still going to be people that get offended and go away. If that is the case, then they will find a support group that best fits their needs.

With that said, we are free to say I want to try this treatment for this reason or that. If you are doing a treatment, you should be free to post about what is happening along the line of that course of treatment. On the flip side, if we are saying we are doing this treatment and it is WORKING, then it's reasonable to ask for evidence so that others might try it. If there is no evidence, then others might be misled into spending a ton of money on a treatment that leaves them broke and emotionally scarred. So that should not be allowed simply for the protection of others.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 10:09 AM
Sure! You may quote hundreds or probably thousands belonging to Pooka1.. just only in this sections.. if you consider also the rest of non surgical sections, surely you have thousands!

She will correct me if I'm wrong but I am guessing she is referring to the infectious disease hypothesis of idiopathic scoliosis which is not being pursued by any of the three or so research teams working on IS but only being pursued by one lay person using google. Even your buddy hdugger admitted she doesn't read that stuff.

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 10:10 AM
Sure! You may quote hundreds or probably thousands belonging to Pooka1.. just only in this sections.. if you consider also the rest of non surgical sections, surely you have thousands!

I mentioned that I wasn't picking on one individual. It's a problem in general and I refrain from naming names. We should not be allowed to voice personal vendettas against an individual. You may disagree with someone, but do it in a way that isn't a personal attack. Naming names is too personal. Feel free to attack the idea, not the person.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 10:14 AM
With that said, we are free to say I want to try this treatment for this reason or that. If you are doing a treatment, you should be free to post about what is happening along the line of that course of treatment. On the flip side, if we are saying we are doing this treatment and it is WORKING, then it's reasonable to ask for evidence so that others might try it. If there is no evidence, then others might be misled into spending a ton of money on a treatment that leaves them broke and emotionally scarred. So that should not be allowed simply for the protection of others.

That could serve as an abstract of my original post. Well stated.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 10:17 AM
Even your buddy hdugger admitted she doesn't read that stuff.

Don't drag me into your dispute with Dingo. I've no quarrel whatsoever with Dingo and I find his ideas interesting.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 10:20 AM
Don't drag me into your dispute with Dingo. I've no quarrel whatsoever with Dingo and I find his ideas interesting.

Don't drag me into your continually misunderstandings of my posts.

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 10:20 AM
I don't see the point of taking counterfactual information out of one section and putting it in another. It doesn't belong on a forum to help people. The armchair biochemistry and genetics going on here is breath-taking.

A problem that never seems to go away is people who are evidence-based get labeled as a "lover" of whatever has the most evidence. And then people don't realize it is not because they randomly "love" that treatment but rather because that treatment has the most evidence of efficacy.

There is a war on science and reason and ration and some of the casualties are people desperately trying to understand a serious medical condition. The chickens are coming home to roost.

I think having an opinion on something is okay. I don't think that these opinions belong in the research section because people that go there are looking for facts. Now if an opinion is stated as a FACT, then it shouldn't be allowed. Free thinking, no matter how absurd it sounds to some, is how new discoveries are made. So as long as there is no counter PROOF against a hypothesis, I think it should stand, just not in the Research section. Just my opinion.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 10:27 AM
I think having an opinion on something is okay. I don't think that these opinions belong in the research section because people that go there are looking for facts. Now if an opinion is stated as a FACT, then it shouldn't be allowed. Free thinking, no matter how absurd it sounds to some, is how new discoveries are made. So as long as there is no counter PROOF against a hypothesis, I think it should stand, just not in the Research section. Just my opinion.

I agree. We need a "Folk Research" section for that stuff.

mariaf
01-09-2014, 10:29 AM
The difference, IMO, is that you are talking about a single person's response. I'm assuming other people were supportive or you would not have stuck around.

It was more like one person was the ringleader and others would join in (although those supporting characters would pop in and out - and it wasn't always the same folks as best I can recall).

I had an occasional supporter, but for the most part they were well outnumbered.

I'm not trying to draw a line and say what's right and what's wrong - just trying to give the facts as best I can recall.

What kept me here was this. I *almost* missed finding out about VBS for my son. It was by pure chance that I read about it. I didn't want another parent to be in the dark and not know about all of their options, in case VBS was a good fit for their child.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 10:34 AM
It was more like one person was the ringleader and others would join in (although those supporting characters would pop in and out - and it wasn't always the same folks as best I can recall).

I had an occasional supporter, but for the most part they were well outnumbered.

I'm not trying to draw a line and say what's right and what's wrong - just trying to give the facts as best I can recall.

What kept me here was this. I *almost* missed finding out about VBS for my son. It was by pure chance that I read about it. I didn't want another parent to be in the dark and not know about all of their options, in case VBS was a good fit for their child.

I am assuming this was back in the mid 2000s and I think I know who you are talking about. I hope her child is doing well. I assume she is now in or has been through the growth spurt.

ETA: Years later, I had some back and forths on bracing with her on the other forum. If this is the same person, I understand your comments.

mariaf
01-09-2014, 10:42 AM
Did Pooka1 attack you as she did with hundreds of members here until they left the forum? I only will believe that if I you quote it.

At the time I first joined (not too long after my son's VBS in 2004), I honestly don't know if Sharon was even a member here.

mariaf
01-09-2014, 10:43 AM
Did Pooka1 attack you as she did with hundreds of members here until they left the forum? I only will believe that if I you quote it.

And I'm not sure why it would even matter with regard to the point I was trying to make.

mariaf
01-09-2014, 10:47 AM
Maria,

I understand your point, but, as I said in the last post, I don't think even you would have survived the greeting in question. Nor would I. To me, that's a problem

Here's what I'd suggest, instead, as a way of greeting people for whom you are not certain about the veracity of what they're saying.

First, *greet* them. Don't frisk them at the door. Welcome them the way you'd welcome anyone else.

If they make an obvious misstatement (as one of the posters did about surgical risk) correct it with facts.

If they go way beyond their own experience to suggest that such and such is guaranteed to work for everyone, correct them again with facts.

But, unless they're doing that - unless they're boldly proclaiming that such and such is true for everyone, then they're just trying to share their own experience and you treat them like anyone else trying to share their own experience. If what they say varies with what you know, then you (gently) correct. But you don't make them feel as if they've just wandered into the worst bar in town.

What concerned me, particularly in one of the cases, was that the claim was really not all that bold (the child still had a significant curve after CLEAR treatment), AND the child had another medical problem (I believe it was diabetes) AND the parent seemed utterly convinced that surgery (which was likely in the cards for her kid, becuase the curve was sitll significant) was going to kill her child. I do not find such a participant to be "The Sworn Enemy of Truth." I find such a participant to be exactly the kind of person you want to hold on to because she *needs* support. Because she has a child with multiple problems who was likely going to require a surgery that she believed would kill her. The whole thing just kind of broke my heart. Would it *not* have been possible to more gently greet that woman so that she could, possibly, have been helped? Was it really necessary to drive her back to the place where people were telling her that surgery would kill her child?

Anyway, that was my concern, in that case. People were so concerned with minimizing the (I believe) small risk to this forum posed by the woman's misconceptions, that they ended up exposing her kid to much more serious risks.One can be faithful to the truth and still find a way to support someone who does not have as clear an understanding of scoliosis. That is all I was saying, in that case.

Fair enough, HD.

My personal opinion of CLEAR aside, you are correct to point out that there are always exceptions where a particular method might be wrong for most, but be the 'lesser of the evils' in an exceptional case.

And I always say that when choosing a treatment method for scoliosis, we are all just trying to choose the lesser of the evils.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 10:52 AM
What kept me here was this. I *almost* missed finding out about VBS for my son. It was by pure chance that I read about it. I didn't want another parent to be in the dark and not know about all of their options, in case VBS was a good fit for their child.

Yes, I completely understand that. And I'm sorry to hear you had that experience. As an ex-forum moderator, I never like to hear those kinds of stories, although I know that they are (unfortunately) common.

Likewise, I continue to participate here through some friction for the same reason. Because I think some things are important to share, even if sharing them isn't necessarily the most pleasant thing I've ever done.

But, I don't expect that you and I are the most common case. I think most people are coming here just to share their stories and get support. And those people, through long experience, will leave if you give them the impression that they're not welcome. A support forum is not a support forum, simply, if it's attacking and not supporting you. So, I don't expect that *most* people would stay on through such a greeting, even though you or I would.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 10:56 AM
My personal opinion of CLEAR aside, you are correct to point out that there are always exceptions where a particular method might be wrong for most, but be the 'lesser of the evils' in an exceptional case.

I wasn't actually saying (or thinking at the time) that it was the lesser of two evils for this patient. I felt/feel that she needed to get to a real doctor. But I felt that the path to a real doctor ran through her being greeted here as a parent needing support and not some maybe-plant who needed to be frisked at the door. If she'd been welcomed, in the same way that every other participant is welcomed, I think she could have moved on to the treatment (I suspected) she needed. But, without that support, the only place she had to go to was the one that was telling her that surgery would kill her child.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 11:02 AM
At the time I first joined (not too long after my son's VBS in 2004), I honestly don't know if Sharon was even a member here.

I was not. I think I joined at the beginning of 2008.

flerc
01-09-2014, 11:12 AM
What kind of forum may allow 6 years of your unmoral pathetic work?

mariaf
01-09-2014, 11:14 AM
I wasn't actually saying (or thinking at the time) that it was the lesser of two evils for this patient. I felt/feel that she needed to get to a real doctor. But I felt that the path to a real doctor ran through her being greeted here as a parent needing support and not some maybe-plant who needed to be frisked at the door. If she'd been welcomed, in the same way that every other participant is welcomed, I think she could have moved on to the treatment (I suspected) she needed. But, without that support, the only place she had to go to was the one that was telling her that surgery would kill her child.

Yes, I went back and re-read that post again.

I also think that being headstrong like most of us who have lasted here all these years probably are, we sometimes forget that not everyone has as thick a skin as we do. Thanks for the reminder.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 11:16 AM
And I always say that when choosing a treatment method for scoliosis, we are all just trying to choose the lesser of the evils.

I don't think some people are thinking in those terms, unfortunately. They don't tend to see this as a game of cutting losses but rather they engage magical thinking to hold on to an unrealistic notion of "normal."

Surgery bares the brunt of this magical thinking because it is viewed as the diametric opposite of "normal." If they can focus on just that then they never approach the case of whether the patient would be worse off without surgery IRRESPECTIVE of how bad surgery might be. It is thinking in a vacuum.

If surgery was a choice then nobody would get it. To suggest it is a choice is to be thinking magically, not accepting that normal is off the table, and not trying to cut losses.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 11:19 AM
Thanks for the reminder.

And thank you for taking the time to make sense of my (mostly) convoluted writing. It is a gift to be understood.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 11:19 AM
What kind of forum may allow 6 years of your unmoral pathetic work?

The rubber has hit the road. The chickens are coming home to roost.

Science is the only game in town.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 11:21 AM
I'm not saying, btw, that some participant (even one of the ones we're talking about) is not going to turn out to be a plant. I'm only trying to err on the side of presumed innocence until proven planty :)

flerc
01-09-2014, 11:26 AM
And I'm not sure why it would even matter with regard to the point I was trying to make.

Because surely any other member's attacks would seem to be very much friendly if they are compared with Pooka1's attacks. To resist as you say you did, attacks of other members, don't means very much really.

flerc
01-09-2014, 11:34 AM
Maybe I am more stubborn that most (I'm sure my husband wouldn't argue that point), but I can't see all these people leaving the forum simply because someone questioned them or asked for proof of what they were saying - or even in their view, was giving them a hard time. I would think it would be more important to make sure others knew about any options that had a chance of helping others.

Sorry, is very difficult for me to believe you don't think that Pooka1's work is not enough to don't wanting to participate here in non surgical sections.

flerc
01-09-2014, 11:38 AM
The rubber has hit the road. The chickens are coming home to roost.


This is all what you have? Yes it is of course. Pathetic.. really pathetic..


Science is the only game in town.

Don't talk about what you don't know please.. is obvious you are a perfect fraud!

flerc
01-09-2014, 11:41 AM
Sorry, is very difficult for me to believe you don't think that Pooka1's work is not enough to don't wanting to participate here in non surgical sections.

Who may believe people may be so insane to be interested in such kind of discussions?

flerc
01-09-2014, 11:43 AM
This is the outcome of the Pooka1's work of course, and you Mariaf are not stupid, you know that.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 11:47 AM
Who may believe people may be so insane to be interested in such kind of discussions?

If someone told you your wife was cheating on you would you just believe them or would you want to see evidence? I assume you would demand to see evidence.

Yet you seem to completely relax that demand for evidence when it comes to claims of PT and scoliosis progression. Why?

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 11:50 AM
I agree. We need a "Folk Research" section for that stuff.

I disagree. Not every well known "scientist" has in centuries past been well learned at the "Universities", yet have made astounding contributions to science even at the cost of their own lives. Many of these men were honestly faith based in many of their beliefs. They just couldn't ignore the facts they saw and found no contradiction in such facts. So ideas aren't necessarily "Folk Science" unless they are touted as "Truth" and have a scientific basis to be disproven. Folk Science include things like spontaneous generation, the Earth is flat and the center of the Universe. These things can be proven to be untrue. Honestly, the germ theory, that many don't like, hasn't be disproven. If it is, then it will be Folk Science to continue to believe it is truth. For now it is a "belief" for those who do and don't "believe" it. Right now it is the hypothesis of probably more than one person, layman or not. Heck, we don't know that some scientist out there isn't frustrated because he can't get funding to research this hypothesis. There are, in my "belief", so many different causes of scoliosis that it stands reasonable to me that "some" scoliosis "may" be caused by microorganisms, but not ALL idiopathic scoliosis. There might even be some known causes of "germ" related scoliosis. In that case it wouldn't be IS. So to say all IS is caused by a germ WOULD be Folk Science. Superstitions/Legends - Folk Science. Real Science - can be PROVEN without a shadow of a doubt, not all similar symptoms have the same cause. A-->B does NOT equal B-->A.

So to discuss an idea isn't wrong. To promote it as FACT is wrong.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 11:51 AM
If surgery was a choice then nobody would get it.

Surgery is a choice. That's why it's elective. Understanding the odds of progressing/pain without surgery is exactly the same mental exercise as understanding the odds of progressing/pain without bracing.

You try to make those odds clear to people so that they understand their choice. But to tell patients that surgery is *not* a choice is to gravely misrepresent.

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 12:01 PM
Did Pooka1 attack you as she did with hundreds of members here until they left the forum? I only will believe that if I you quote it.

Flerc,
I know this question wasn't directed to me, but how do you know that Pooka1 single handedly ran off hundreds of members from this forum? That's a HUGE claim and a lot of power for one member to have. I think if that were really true, she would have been banned a long time ago. This would fall into the Folk Science category if it were about science. Otherwise it's just slander unless you can prove it.

flerc
01-09-2014, 12:02 PM
Surely she also don't understand what a choice means. It have not any sense to discuss with her, but is also impossible to talk about what we wants to talk.. a very much suspect forum really..

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 12:03 PM
I disagree. Not every well known "scientist" has in centuries past been well learned at the "Universities", yet have made astounding contributions to science even at the cost of their own lives. Many of these men were honestly faith based in many of their beliefs. They just couldn't ignore the facts they saw and found no contradiction in such facts. So ideas aren't necessarily "Folk Science" unless they are touted as "Truth" and have a scientific basis to be disproven. Folk Science include things like spontaneous generation, the Earth is flat and the center of the Universe. These things can be proven to be untrue. Honestly, the germ theory, that many don't like, hasn't be disproven. If it is, then it will be Folk Science to continue to believe it is truth. For now it is a "belief" for those who do and don't "believe" it. Right now it is the hypothesis of probably more than one person, layman or not. Heck, we don't know that some scientist out there isn't frustrated because he can't get funding to research this hypothesis. There are, in my "belief", so many different causes of scoliosis that it stands reasonable to me that "some" scoliosis "may" be caused by microorganisms, but not ALL idiopathic scoliosis. There might even be some known causes of "germ" related scoliosis. In that case it wouldn't be IS. So to say all IS is caused by a germ WOULD be Folk Science. Superstitions/Legends - Folk Science. Real Science - can be PROVEN without a shadow of a doubt, not all similar symptoms have the same cause. A-->B does NOT equal B-->A.

So to discuss an idea isn't wrong. To promote it as FACT is wrong.

I will agree with this. But I think given all the other associations of micro-organisms and disease, I think the ID guys and epidemiologists may have already ruled that out for IS. I don't know. All I know is there are only about three major groups worldwide studying IS etiology and we know what they are studying. It doesn't include ID. But that cuts both ways... with only three groups studying it, maybe they don't have the manpower to look at ID. I guess I'd like to talk with some of these guys to see if it has been ruled out or not.

Sometimes things can be elegantly put to bed. My favorite example is how a famous limnologist was able to put the Loch Ness Monster claims to bed once and for all by calculating that there is not enough forage for such an animal given reasonable assumptions about metabolic rates. I just love that. It's using first principles to rule out a claim. So, so elegant.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 12:05 PM
Surgery is a choice. That's why it's elective.

Yes and insurance companies routinely paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars PER SURGERY for "elective" surgery. That rolls up into many millions per year. Yes makes sense.

flerc
01-09-2014, 12:07 PM
Flerc,
I know this question wasn't directed to me, but how do you know that Pooka1 single handedly ran off hundreds of members from this forum? That's a HUGE claim and a lot of power for one member to have. I think if that were really true, she would have been banned a long time ago. This would fall into the Folk Science category if it were about science. Otherwise it's just slander unless you can prove it.

Yes, she should have to be banned a long time ago, is exactly what I'm saying since a long time ago!

mariaf
01-09-2014, 12:09 PM
Because surely any other member's attacks would seem to be very much friendly if they are compared with Pooka1's attacks.

Like I said, you weren't here to see it so I understand you making this incorrect assumption, but the other member's attacks on me (once accusing me of recruiting patients to be experimented on!) make Sharon look timid.

flerc
01-09-2014, 12:09 PM
Or at least not allows here to does her unmoral pathetic work here of course. Instead of this she use to receive the moderator's help.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 12:11 PM
Yes and insurance companies routinely paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars for "elective" surgery. Yes makes sense.

Whether it makes sense to you or not, both things are true. It is elective surgery *and* insurance companies pay a high cost for it.

Likewise for hip replacement - also elective, also running into $100,000 cost to insurance companies.

Elective does not equal experimental or deemed ineffective. It just means that it's the sort of surgery about which one is not facing a life or death decision. Open heart surgery - *not* elective in emergency cases. Fusion surgery - elective.

Hence, open heart surgery is not a choice (unless it is a choice to die). Fusion surgery *is* a choice.

That's all I'm saying. To fail to make that clear is to mislead.

flerc
01-09-2014, 12:14 PM
Like I said, you weren't here to see it so I understand you making this incorrect assumption, but the other member's attacks on me (once accusing me of recruiting patients to be experimented on!) make Sharon look timid.

Sorry I have not enough imagination to beleive it. If his work was realy so agresive, sure it had more level.. sure was not so pathetic.. this is what turns her work insoportable.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 12:16 PM
Yes, she should have to be banned a long time ago, is exactly what I'm saying since a long time ago!

I think I should only be banned when the numbers reach into the thousands. Saying hundreds is setting the bar too low and it may not motivate me.

mariaf
01-09-2014, 12:18 PM
Sorry, is very difficult for me to believe you don't think that Pooka1's work is not enough to don't wanting to participate here in non surgical sections.

Why is it difficult for you to believe? I just told you that I was given a MUCH harder time than Sharon has ever given anyone here, and I stayed.

If you believe in what you stand for and have nothing to hide, chances are you stick around.

I agree with Rohrer that nobody here, including Sharon, has that much power over people.

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 12:18 PM
Or at least not allows here to does her unmoral pathetic work here of course. Instead of this she use to receive the moderator's help.

It seems that every discussion that you join ends up being attacks on Pooka1. You are just as guilty of what you are accusing her of. If you would concentrate your efforts on alternative therapy options, like you used to do, at least I would enjoy reading your posts again. We all know that Pooka1 can be harsh. That's her personality. If you don't like it, don't engage. She doesn't need anyone to come to her defense. She's quite capable of that herself. I think everyone should just stop the bickering and accusations and get on with life. If you have something productive to contribute, do so. Otherwise, if you don't have something nice to say - don't say anything at all. It is LEGAL to counter someone's IDEA without attacking the person. Slander is serious.

flerc
01-09-2014, 12:18 PM
Flerc,
I know this question wasn't directed to me, but how do you know that Pooka1 single handedly ran off hundreds of members from this forum? That's a HUGE claim and a lot of power for one member to have. I think if that were really true, she would have been banned a long time ago. This would fall into the Folk Science category if it were about science. Otherwise it's just slander unless you can prove it.

In a judgment sure I Might prove it. But of course, science has very few to do with law issues.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 12:20 PM
Like I said, you weren't here to see it so I understand you making this incorrect assumption, but the other member's attacks on me (once accusing me of recruiting patients to be experimented on!) make Sharon look timid.

I know EXACTLY what you mean!

The statements that person made on the other group about such things would give most players here a run for their money. If you think conspiracy theories had their their hay day before, you will change you mind after seeing some of the exchanges I have seen (if you hadn't seen them). The stuff on other fora does truly take the cake in that regard. What goes on here is amateur night compared to that.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 12:21 PM
Or at least not allows here to does her unmoral pathetic work here of course. Instead of this she use to receive the moderator's help.

For the elebenty billionth time, I WORK ALONE!

mariaf
01-09-2014, 12:22 PM
Sorry I have not enough imagination to beleive it. If his work was realy so agresive, sure it had more level.. sure was not so pathetic.. this is what turns her work insoportable.

It's clear that you are not listening or maybe you just refuse to believe what you don't want to believe.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 12:23 PM
Sorry I have not enough imagination to beleive it. If his work was realy so agresive, sure it had more level.. sure was not so pathetic.. this is what turns her work insoportable.

This is a faith position. Do you see that?

If you could recognize when you are taking a purely faith position, it would raise you arguments up 5,000 notches.

mariaf
01-09-2014, 12:25 PM
I know EXACTLY what you mean!

The statements that person made on the other group about such things would give most players here a run for their money. If you think conspiracy theories had their their hay day before, you will change you mind after seeing some of the exchanges I have seen (if you hadn't seen them). The stuff on other fora does truly take the cake in that regard. What goes on here is amateur night compared to that.

I have not seen them, but after what I went through here, I can only imagine. Some people just don't seem to have the capacity to think rationally.

flerc
01-09-2014, 12:26 PM
In a judgment sure I Might prove it. But of course, science has very few to do with law issues.

I asked a lot of people really interested/proving with/ /having good outcomes with non surgical options to participate in this forum, but it seems they are not enough insane.. they knows what would happen with Pooka1 here.

flerc
01-09-2014, 12:30 PM
This is a faith position. Do you see that?

If you could recognize when you are taking a purely faith position, it would raise you arguments up 5,000 notches.

Only faith in.. what?? may lead someone to not see how much pathetics are your irrational 'arguments' in order to do what you are doing here.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 12:30 PM
I have not seen them, but after what I went through here, I can only imagine. Some people just don't seem to have the capacity to think rationally.

There was some back and forth with brace manufacturers that I would be surprised did not result in restraining orders. Forget liable suits. Nothing here can hold a candle to that.

I think most of these people were perfectly rational before they had to deal with scoliosis in their child. I can't prove it but I think the scoliosis diagnosis seems to have driven some people around the bend.

While that is a reason, it is not an excuse.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 12:31 PM
I asked a lot of people really interested/proving with/ /having good outcomes with non surgical options to participate in this forum, but it seems they are not enough insane.. they knows what would happen with Pooka1 here.

Nobody can argue with before and after radiographs read by competent people (radiologist and surgeons).

hdugger
01-09-2014, 12:33 PM
If you don't like it, don't engage. .

As someone who is regularly engaging recently, my choice is between letting unsupported and conjectural statements stand - statements which misrepresent the efficacy or expected course or other aspect of a treatment which participants on this forum are considering - or stepping in to correct them with evidence.

I realize that I am electively posting, but I feel that it's important to make clear, for example, that the BrAIST study doesn't apply to nighttime braces. That will matter to someone considering nighttime bracing. Now they don't believe (wrongly) that their child is just bound to fail and go on to surgery. And I also understand that, in choosing to engage *just with those facts* I am going to fall into a torrent of insult. Like Maria, I am making that choice because I believe I'm doing something that needs to be done.

So, I am not *choosing* to engage in a personal dispute. And, with some notable and fire-y exceptions, I try to not make it personal. But my choice is: engage with the facts and be insulted, or let misstatements stand. I am choosing the former. But it's like throwing myself into a thorn thicket just to get the actual facts on the table.

BTW, one cannot slander an anonymous person, to the best of my knowledge. The idea of slander/libel is that you're causing damage to a known entity. Dr. Mooney can be slandered/libeled. "A poster calling themselves Pooka" cannot.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 12:41 PM
I realize that I am electively posting, but I feel that it's important to make clear, for example, that the BrAIST study doesn't apply to nighttime braces. That will matter to someone considering nighttime bracing. Now they don't believe (wrongly) that their child is just bound to fail and go on to surgery. And I also understand that, in choosing to engage *just with those facts* I am going to fall into a torrent of insult. Like Maria, I am making that choice because I believe I'm doing something that needs to be done.

I agree that was important to point out I was wrong about that. But what you have to realize is that we can't all ALWAYS be correct like you. I make mistakes. There are probably other mistakes because this is not my field. I've read back over some of my posts that I now thing are wrong. Again, not my field. All I can do is work with what is on the table at that time. I am not clairvoyant like you.

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 12:42 PM
I asked a lot of people really interested/proving with/ /having good outcomes with non surgical options to participate in this forum, but it seems they are not enough insane.. they knows what would happen with Pooka1 here.

If they truly have good outcomes, they shouldn't have anything to fear. A good outcome can be described in many more ways than a cobb angle on an x-ray. It can be decrease in pain, improved posture, improved overall health from a healthier lifestyle that would decrease their symptoms. They just need to define what the good outcome is. Some outcomes are subjective and not objective. If the person FEELS better, that's a good outcome. BUT, if they try to say that their scoliosis is improved as regards the degree of curvature, then they would need to show that by x-ray or at least a doctor's measurements.

On the other hand, I can see a hesitance about posting x-rays. I hesitated because they show more of a person's anatomy than just their spine. I have seen WAY more on some of these x-rays than I care to have seen. I accidentally posted a very embarrassing x-ray and deleted it right away. I don't know how many people saw it before I deleted it, I hate to think ANYONE saw it, but I'm sure they did. You have to know how to crop these. I don't even know how to get them out of archive and label them so that I know which ones are which. So that makes me nervous. I've learned to "preview post" since that episode, but still...

But if Pooka1 is truly the issue, just inform them to block her when they join and then they won't be able to see any of her "attacks". Someone else might phrase things more tactfully.

You used to post some really great stuff. I never saw you get attacked over those legitimate posts. I found them quite fascinating and miss that about you. You seem to have changed... :/

hdugger
01-09-2014, 12:50 PM
I agree that was important to point out I was wrong about that..

I was not and am not now faulting you for reaching an incorrect conclusion. Everyone does that all the time. I am faulting you for:

* treating that incorrect conclusion, based on conjecture, as absolute fact
and, more importantly to me in that discussion
* repeatedly, incessantly, doggedly calling me every manner of names for holding on to my (later proven to be correct) conclusion.

It was the repeated, incessant, dogged name calling for which I was asking for an apology. I found it beyond the pale, even if you had been absolutely correct. But, to hold onto the idea that it was totally OK to call me ever manner of names, even when you were insulting me because *You* reached the incorrect conclusion? Yes, I'd think one might want to apologize for that. Again, I don't expect it - I am (generally) just kind of laughing this stuff off.

But, again, you're exacerbating it here with "we can't all ALWAYS be correct like you" "I am not clairvoyant like you." It's all just really really unpleasant when, again, I was correct AND I'm not trying to further incite. All other things being equal, you'd think it would be *me* making snippy remarks about you, given the incident. But, again, apparently, all other things are not equal.

So, yes, I engage. but I do wish that it weren't so ridiculously unpleasant simply to place facts into evidence.

flerc
01-09-2014, 12:50 PM
Nobody can argue with before and after radiographs read by competent people (radiologist and surgeons).

So the purpose of your work is that only people having such kind of rx and disposed to shows it in this forum would be the only ones who may participate in the non surgical sections here. Someone asked you to do this?

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 12:55 PM
So the purpose of your work is that only people having such kind of rx and disposed to shows it in this forum would be the only ones who may participate in the non surgical sections here. Someone asked you to do this?

No. Only the people who claim they reduced their curves using PT. You wouldn't just accept the claim your wife was cheating on you without evidence but you seem to accept this claims without evidence. Why?

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 12:56 PM
I was not and am not now faulting you for reaching an incorrect conclusion. Everyone does that all the time. I am faulting you for:

* treating that incorrect conclusion, based on conjecture, as absolute fact
and, more importantly to me in that discussion
* repeatedly, incessantly, doggedly calling me every manner of names for holding on to my (later proven to be correct) conclusion.

It was the repeated, incessant, dogged name calling for which I was asking for an apology. I found it beyond the pale, even if you had been absolutely correct. But, to hold onto the idea that it was totally OK to call me ever manner of names, even when you were insulting me because *You* reached the incorrect conclusion? Yes, I'd think one might want to apologize for that. Again, I don't expect it - I am (generally) just kind of laughing this stuff off.

But, again, you're exacerbating it here with "we can't all ALWAYS be correct like you" "I am not clairvoyant like you." It's all just really really unpleasant when, again, I was correct AND I'm not trying to further incite. All other things being equal, you'd think it would be *me* making snippy remarks about you, given the incident. But, again, apparently, all other things are not equal.

So, yes, I engage. but I do wish that it weren't so ridiculously unpleasant simply to place facts into evidence.

Ask yourself why it took you so long to compare and contrast my remarks and Dr. McIntire's.

flerc
01-09-2014, 01:01 PM
Someone asked you to do this?

If it would be the case I really might understand why you spend so many time in non surgical sections. Hdugger, me and others are here because a health problem and we are evaluating non surgical options.. we are not here to 'show' people that dont works as you try to do. We have an important problem to solve. It's not your reason to be in these sections of course doing what you are doing.. I'm wrong?

hdugger
01-09-2014, 01:03 PM
Ask yourself why it took you so long to compare and contrast my remarks and Dr. McIntire's.

So, again, dodge the issue at hand (should one apologize for insulting someone for reaching a correct conclusion) and revisit some other dispute altogether.

I thought I'd made this clear before, but perhaps not. I am trying not to drag said Dr. into these disputes because: 1) he is named and 2) he has a professional ethical code. So, no, I am not now nor in the future going to be dragging out the "ad hominem" chart and placing said Dr's remarks on them. If *you* want to do so, I can't stop you, but I have no interest in dragging a known, professional person into a dispute on a public forum.

I made clear where and why I placed you on that chart. If you want to discuss your own behavior ad naseum, feel free to. I'm out.

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 01:13 PM
As someone who is regularly engaging recently, my choice is between letting unsupported and conjectural statements stand - statements which misrepresent the efficacy or expected course or other aspect of a treatment which participants on this forum are considering - or stepping in to correct them with evidence.

I realize that I am electively posting, but I feel that it's important to make clear, for example, that the BrAIST study doesn't apply to nighttime braces. That will matter to someone considering nighttime bracing. Now they don't believe (wrongly) that their child is just bound to fail and go on to surgery. And I also understand that, in choosing to engage *just with those facts* I am going to fall into a torrent of insult. Like Maria, I am making that choice because I believe I'm doing something that needs to be done.

So, I am not *choosing* to engage in a personal dispute. And, with some notable and fire-y exceptions, I try to not make it personal. But my choice is: engage with the facts and be insulted, or let misstatements stand. I am choosing the former. But it's like throwing myself into a thorn thicket just to get the actual facts on the table.

BTW, one cannot slander an anonymous person, to the best of my knowledge. The idea of slander/libel is that you're causing damage to a known entity. Dr. Mooney can be slandered/libeled. "A poster calling themselves Pooka" cannot.

I meant engaging in the bickering, which I feel that you show more self-restraint than others here. Your reason for continuing on here is just as legitimate as many of us and your contributions are valuable. I don't "side" with people. I like to read contributions.

When different personalities mix there ARE going to be disputes. It's how we handle those disputes that matters.

As far as slander, Pooka1 has revealed enough about herself on this forum that she could probably be identified easily enough. So in that case, yes, it is slander to make false statements that can destroy the reputation of another. That's why we have to be careful how much personal information we throw out there.

I think her reason for being here is just as noble as any of us. She's lived the nightmare of scoliosis in her children and is honestly concerned about disseminating information to help other parents who are going through the same thing, not to do an evil work as she is being accused of. You are in the exact same position. I do it for myself and my grandchild who shows signs of early onset scoliosis, although not by definition "scoliosis" even though there is a curve there. I have future grandchildren that I'd like to be a good resource for. My son had self-resolving JIS and his wife had such a significant curve that she was advised fusion surgery at 16 years of age. Her cobb angle wasn't that horrible at 48*, but she was corkscrewing something fierce. So those are MY reasons for being here. Flerc is here because he's gone through the same nightmare with his daughter. This is devastating news to any parent and/or individual that suffers from scoliosis. We need to remember our common ground.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 01:16 PM
So, again, dodge the issue at hand

You were wondering why I deal with you the way I do. I am telling you why. Stop asking me. You have the answer.

flerc
01-09-2014, 01:53 PM
I think her reason for being here is just as noble as any of us. She's lived the nightmare of scoliosis in her children and is honestly concerned about disseminating information to help other parents who are going through the same thing, not to do an evil work as she is being accused of.

Part I

Is absolutely impossible for me to understand how someone knowing enoug about Pooka1's work here may really believes what you are saying.

Many people around the world had not good outcomes with braces or other non surgical options and they are not dedicating their lives to convince the world that only surgery works!

flerc
01-09-2014, 02:12 PM
Also many other people around the world had not good outcomes with surgery and they are not dedicating their lives to convince the world that before surgery they should to prove with other option!
Do you believe she needs thousands of posts to talk about her bad experience? Of course not! I cannot believe you don't see how much impossible is to talk about non surgical options here! Do you believe Roher01 I have time to this kind of discussion?

flerc
01-09-2014, 02:23 PM
Part II

I don't need to do a Google search to find an example of what I'm saying. YESTERDAY I saw someone talking about Spinecor for adults. I may talk about it through several weeks without stopping! I need to do it and although to talk in English is very much uncomfortable for me I would have do it. But Pooka1 didn't allow me to do that. How may I don't hate her? How someone may be so bad person or insane to do that? I really don't know.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 03:03 PM
You were wondering why I deal with you the way I do. .

No, I'm not asking why. Motivations don't matter to me, except in the closest of relationships.

I am asking you to stop, whatever your motivation might be. I am particularly asking you to stop violently and abusively defending *conjectures* as if they were some holy fact. Let people discover the best information currently available and stop leading them, by conjecture, insinuation, and insult, into believing things which are demonstrably not true - night bracing has not been show to lead with certainty to fusion, curves do not suddenly progress after bracing because of atrophied muscles, torso rotation does not need to be discounted because *you* believe (completely contrary to the written record) that someone double published, Boachie has not stated that fusion for thoracic fusions is "one stop shopping". And so on and so on.

It's not about your feelings about *me* or some blood grudge you've decided to act on, for heavens sake. It's about trying to stick, as closely, as possible to what is true and known, because it's in the best interest of everyone in the forum.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 03:29 PM
I am asking you to stop, whatever your motivation might be. I am particularly asking you to stop violently and abusively defending *conjectures* as if they were some holy fact. Let people discover the best information currently available and stop leading them, by conjecture, insinuation, and insult, into believing things which are demonstrably not true - night bracing has not been show to lead with certainty to fusion, curves do not suddenly progress after bracing because of atrophied muscles, torso rotation does not need to be discounted because *you* believe (completely contrary to the written record) that someone double published, Boachie has not stated that fusion for thoracic fusions is "one stop shopping". And so on and so on.

Dishonest recitation of my positions. More of the same behavior.

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 03:36 PM
Part II

I don't need to do a Google search to find an example of what I'm saying. YESTERDAY I saw someone talking about Spinecor for adults. I may talk about it through several weeks without stopping! I need to do it and although to talk in English is very much uncomfortable for me I would have do it. But Pooka1 didn't allow me to do that. How may I don't hate her? How someone may be so bad person or insane to do that? I really don't know.

I haven't looked at that Spinecor thread today. I did read it yesterday and didn't see any bickering or unfriendliness going on. Maybe it happened after I looked? I honestly don't follow those threads for too long because they don't apply to me. I can't use a Spinecor because of where my curve is. IF I could, I might have tried one for pain myself. I'm not taking sides here. I just wish everyone would be friendly. I've stated that until I'm blue in the face. I don't have anything personal against anyone here. That's all I can contribute. I just miss your old threads and comments, Flerc. These new ones aimed at arguing are exhausting to say the least.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 03:44 PM
Boachie has not stated that fusion for thoracic fusions is "one stop shopping".

Here's an example of how you dissemble. I have posted that link to Boachie's quote for years. Ti Ed found the link first as far as I can remember and I reposted it several times, any time a person claims not fusions are one-stop. You find the PP and think you discovered it like lost treasure and take credit for "uncovering the truth!" You NEVER acknowledged that I have posted that link several times.

The reason you didn't acknowledge my multiple postings of that link and that quote is because that would completely undermine you effort to show I am quote mining. Quote mining is dishonest. I don't do it. You are doing it to me in these posts.

The problem is you have decided a priori to disagree with every statement I make and will do whatever is necessary to support that disagreement in your head.

Yes I believe you that you think I am making counterfactual statements. But that is motivated entirely by your crusade to disagree with every one of my statements.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 03:48 PM
Boachie has not stated that fusion for thoracic fusions is "one stop shopping".

He has stated it can be. I use the quote to counter people who claim fusion can't be.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 04:11 PM
Yes I believe you that you think I am making counterfactual statements. .

No, I believe that you believe what you say. But that belief does not make what you say true.

Yes, I know you posted the whole Boachie quote - I found it through your old posts. My quarrel was not with the text of his statement - I had no quarrel with what he'd said.

As in all of these cases, the issue I had was with the emphatic-and-violently-defended conclusion that you'd drawn from that article and then just repeated all over the forum.

You stated, as fact, that Boachie had made some simple declarative statement - something like "thoracic surgery is one-stop shopping" and, when I said that that sounds over-confident, for a surgeon, given the short history of the current hardware - you began insulting and belitteling me. Did I think that doctors just made this stuff up? and so on and so on. It was all kind of personal and nasty and none of it was about the facts of what Boachie said. That is, you didn't produce his *quote* to correct me - you just started being unpleasant.

So, I had to look for the quote myself - because you did not provide it. And then, when I found the actual quote, I realized that I'd been correct in stating that he hadn't made some kind of bold guarantee to surgical patients. He's made a very nuanced statement about one kind of surgery being guaranteed to cause problems in 20 to 25 years and another in which patients *can* be ok for life providing thus and such. So, my argument was never with the facts - they were with your statement about what the facts were.

Again, it's always the same thing that I'm arguing about, with you. You make very bold, categorical statements, and then you defend them as if they were some abused child. I just always feel as if I'm walking from the light into some dark storm, with things flying at me from all angles, when I try to suggest that the thing you've said is not a statement of fact.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 04:19 PM
He has stated it can be. I use the quote to counter people who claim fusion can't be.

No, that is also not the case.

The statement of mine that you were addressing in one in which I said that there was *no guarantee* of what would happen to these patients down the road because we were using newer hardware.

And your response "Well Boachie seems to have some idea for fusions ending at T12 or L1... he seems to think it is one-stop shopping for surgery as does our surgeon. And they go on record."

So, no, it is simply not true that you brought that up because I said that these kids *would* have problems. I said no such thing. And you did not say that Boachie said that there was some possibility that they wouldn't have problems.

You stated what I just quoted above - it's one stop shopping, and he and your surgeon have gone on record to say so.

flerc
01-09-2014, 04:24 PM
I think her reason for being here is just as noble as any of us. She's lived the nightmare of scoliosis in her children and is honestly concerned about disseminating information to help other parents who are going through the same thing, not to do an evil work as she is being accused of.

Part III

Maybe you may say that, simply because you are not suffering the consequences of what she does here. I may assure you that if you would have a daughter or someone you love with all your hearth with scoliosis and you would be thinking in non surgical options, you would want to talk about it in the most visited scoliosis forum of the world. Unfortunately is this, with someone as Pooka1 doing absolutely impossible for anyone to talk about what you would want to talk. But it seems you are lucky and you have not any problem with what she is doing here.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 04:27 PM
No, that is also not the case.

The statement of mine that you were addressing in one in which I said that there was *no guarantee* of what would happen to these patients down the road because we were using newer hardware.

And your response "Well Boachie seems to have some idea for fusions ending at T12 or L1... he seems to think it is one-stop shopping for surgery as does our surgeon. And they go on record."

So, no, it is simply not true that you brought that up because I said that these kids *would* have problems. I said no such thing. And you did not say that Boachie said that there was some possibility that they wouldn't have problems.

You stated what I just quoted above - it's one stop shopping, and he and your surgeon have gone on record to say so.

I told you why I usually bring it up.

I have posted that quote so many times that I just assume people are following along. You saw me post the quote, knew I knew the quote, and still accuse me of quote-mining. That is dissembling.

I can state it that way to YOU because I KNOW you have seen me post that quote and link multiple times. And you pretend you haven't seen it before just so you can dishonestly accuse me of quote mining.

You recently complained that I gigged you on not constantly repeating all the caveats on the magic "93%" figure.

I'm gigging you on the same here.

I will make judgement calls on whether or not I need to re-post a link for the elebenty billionth time and will not accept your opinion on whether I have posted it enough to refer to it without repeating it in its entirety.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 04:30 PM
No, that is also not the case.

"Whatever It Is I'm Against it"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7cry-4pyy8

hdugger
01-09-2014, 04:44 PM
I have posted that quote so many times that I just assume people are following along. You saw me post the quote, knew I knew the quote, and still accuse me of quote-mining. That is dissembling.
.

Simply, again, how can you know all this with such utter certainty? You can't. You're stating, as fact, what I've read, what I know, and then kind of slandering me. Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Everything is a fact - even those things which could not possibly be in your possession - and you're boldly going forward into god knows where with these "facty" things.

You don't know *any* of these things as facts. Period.

What I *have* seen is you make the quote with your surgeon as the author, but I have no idea who your surgeon is and I have not, thus far, been bold enough to ask you to pony up the evidence that he said it. I do not recall, before, hearing you claim that Boachie had said that same thing, and I don't recall reading the interview with Boarchie. I can guarantee that I never read the interview before with the thought in mind that I was going to check out the veracity of your claim. So, no, in contrast to your "facts" - this is the first time I've had the chance to compare your bold statement about one-stop shopping to any actual evidence.

Also, I'm not exactly sure what "quote mining" is. I assume it's selectively pulling out a quote. But "one-stop shopping" appears exactly nowhere in the Boachie interview. So, I'm not accusing you of mining it, I'm saying that you seem to understand it incorrectly. Which, again, would not be a huge deal if you weren't so dang emphatic and unpleasant about it all.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 04:47 PM
Simply, again, how can you know all this with such utter certainty? You can't. You're stating, as fact, what I've read, what I know, and then kind of slandering me. Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Everything is a fact - even those things which could not possibly be in your possession - and you're boldly going forward into god knows where with these "facty" things.

You don't know *any* of these things as facts. Period.

What I *have* seen is you make the quote with your surgeon as the author, but I have no idea who your surgeon is and I have not, thus far, been bold enough to ask you to pony up the evidence that he said it. I do not recall, before, hearing you claim that Boachie had said that same thing, and I don't recall reading the interview with Boarchie. I can guarantee that I never read the interview before with the thought in mind that I was going to check out the veracity of your claim. So, no, in contrast to your "facts" - this is the first time I've had the chance to compare your bold statement about one-stop shopping to any actual evidence.

Also, I'm not exactly sure what "quote mining" is. I assume it's selectively pulling out a quote. But "one-stop shopping" appears exactly nowhere in the Boachie interview. So, I'm not accusing you of mining it, I'm saying that you seem to understand it incorrectly. Which, again, would not be a huge deal if you weren't so dang emphatic and unpleasant about it all.

There's too much crap here to dig out.

So on it goes.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 04:52 PM
I am forced to accept that there is something about my writing style that is infinitely perplexing to hdugger. That, plus the "Whatever It Is I'm Against It" attitude make her reading my posts inevitably resulting in misunderstanding. And me inevitably concluding she is dissembling.

There will be no end to this miasma. None. Hopeless.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 04:52 PM
I will make judgement calls on whether or not I need to re-post a link .

No, you don't need to repost the link. You just have to 1) fairly represent what the statement is so that someone not reading the link doesn't think that a respected surgeon said something he didn't and 2) not use the (misstated) quote to correct someone whose statement is actually in complete agreement with the surgeon you are (mis)quoting and 3) once you do 1 and 2, don't start calling the other person names for (correctly) saying that your quote doesn't seem like it's right on target.

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 05:11 PM
Part III

Maybe you may say that, simply because you are not suffering the consequences of what she does here. I may assure you that if you would have a daughter or someone you love with all your hearth with scoliosis and you would be thinking in non surgical options, you would want to talk about it in the most visited scoliosis forum of the world. Unfortunately is this, with someone as Pooka1 doing absolutely impossible for anyone to talk about what you would want to talk. But it seems you are lucky and you have not any problem with what she is doing here.

But I DO have a daughter with scoliosis! I have a son who "had" scoliosis. I have a grandson developing scoliosis! Of course I'm interested in non-surgical interventions! Especially am I interested for the grandson who isn't technically scoliotic, yet. What makes you think I'm not or haven't walked in your shoes? My daughter, like yours, is of age and refuses to listen to me. THAT is frustrating. However, if I learn something useful I would certainly like to share it. Her curve when last measured was between 15* and 20*. That was when she was 12. She'll be 24 next month and has terrible back pain at times. She also has at least one cervical rib to make matters worse.

hdugger
01-09-2014, 05:29 PM
And me inevitably concluding she is dissembling..

which, like any conclusion we reach about another person's motives - particularly a person who (by all appearances) we're not all that fond of - is fraught with error. And, you know, insulting.

So, again, I am not engaging with you because of some *personal* issue (although I can reach the end of my rope at some point in these discussions). I'm engaging because I do not think it is helpful to strongly state incorrect things which might influence medical decisions - such as, a respected surgeon is offering a guarantee that people with fusions will never have any problems, or a study has concluded that nighttime bracing will very likely just lead to fusion. You can let go of any idea that I'll ever understand you and just try to be more circumspect in these areas. It's not some thing between you and I. It's between what you're stating (emphatically and repeatedly) and what is the evidence supports.

flerc
01-09-2014, 05:34 PM
But I DO have a daughter with scoliosis! I have a son who "had" scoliosis. I have a grandson developing scoliosis! Of course I'm interested in non-surgical interventions! Especially am I interested for the grandson who isn't technically scoliotic, yet. What makes you think I'm not or haven't walked in your shoes? My daughter, like yours, is of age and refuses to listen to me. THAT is frustrating. However, if I learn something useful I would certainly like to share it. Her curve when last measured was between 15* and 20*. That was when she was 12. She'll be 24 next month and has terrible back pain at times. She also has at least one cervical rib to make matters worse.

It seems I only knew about your son that had scoliosis. You need to know how is her curve now. If certainly scoliosis is the problem (not the effect of other problem as I used to said you that I thought it was what was happening with you), yes, you may understand what I may feel here and why I'm involved in this insane discussions. What the hell I'm doing here talking in English about Pooka1? But if I became to talk about non surgical issues, as you should to be doing and I did yesterday, I finish talking about her. Is what she wants, how you don't see that? I really don't understand.

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 05:39 PM
So, again, I don't have a *personal* issue with you

It certainly looks to me like you have a emotional problem with me.


It's not some thing between you and I.

That's what it certainly looks like to me.

Why did you delete hundreds of your own posts? Why DON'T I do that?

There's an answer in there.

No end in sight on this.

flerc
01-09-2014, 06:05 PM
It certainly looks to me like you have a emotional problem with me.


It would be absolutely understandable. Of course emotions should to flows in non a very possitive way against people like you, doing what you are doing here. How do you sleep? May you say me?

flerc
01-09-2014, 06:10 PM
It would be better if you answer first this

Someone asked you to do this?

Maybe I may understand something I'm not knowing and my emotions against you may flows in some different way.. who knows?

flerc
01-09-2014, 06:33 PM
I haven't looked at that Spinecor thread today.
There's nothing to see anymore in that thread. Surely Jinseeker thought something as My god, I must to leave this forum before I may become so insane as all these people here.

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 08:19 PM
It seems I only knew about your son that had scoliosis. You need to know how is her curve now. If certainly scoliosis is the problem (not the effect of other problem as I used to said you that I thought it was what was happening with you), yes, you may understand what I may feel here and why I'm involved in this insane discussions. What the hell I'm doing here talking in English about Pooka1? But if I became to talk about non surgical issues, as you should to be doing and I did yesterday, I finish talking about her. Is what she wants, how you don't see that? I really don't understand.

I don't get personal on here, or at least I try not to. I've been rubbed the wrong way by many people on here. I've been attacked by many people on here. That's what happens on an international public forum.

I mostly READ the conservative stuff in hopes of finding something useful. I usually don't get involved in those discussions because I have nothing to offer. My daughter won't even get a proper x-ray to get her curves measured. I can't MAKE her do something. I can't MAKE her try a certain treatment for her son. I was following and discussing in TAMZTOMS thread for quite awhile. I'm not seeing anything new here, but I keep looking and hoping.

I get involved in scientific threads because I'm a scientist. I don't work as one, but am trained. It interests me and I often do have something to add. That's why I choose those parts of the forum to be active in.

rohrer01
01-09-2014, 08:22 PM
It would be better if you answer first this


Maybe I may understand something I'm not knowing and my emotions against you may flows in some different way.. who knows?

Flerc,
Who are you addressing here? You quoted yourself. Is it me?

Pooka1
01-09-2014, 09:02 PM
No, you don't need to repost the link.

Look what I found in the previous thread that Jinseeker starter earlier this year. Note what I quoted and what is highlighted.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?5826-Surgery-or-no-Hard-decision-when-it-comes-to-convenience-and-quality-of-life&p=148408#post148408

Obviously I don't need your advise on anything associated with how to post responsibly.

flerc
01-10-2014, 06:30 AM
Flerc,
Who are you addressing here? You quoted yourself. Is it me?

If you click the View Post buttom, you'll see I was asking this to Pooka1. Certainly if she would be forced in some way to convince people that only surgery works, I might not see her as a bad/insane person.

mariaf
01-10-2014, 08:57 AM
My daughter won't even get a proper x-ray to get her curves measured. I can't MAKE her do something. I can't MAKE her try a certain treatment for her son.

This has nothing to do with scoliosis, Rohrer, but I just wanted you to know that I can totally relate to your statement above. In some ways, it is much easier when they are young and you can lead them by the hand :-)

flerc
01-10-2014, 11:25 AM
Obviously I don't need your advise on anything associated with how to post responsibly.

You don't need it because it cannot change your behaviour. You are here to defame non surgical option so has not any sense to talk about responsability in your case. Nothing may be more obvious in this forum of course.

hdugger
01-10-2014, 05:11 PM
Obviously I don't need your advise on anything associated with how to post responsibly.

Nor do I imagine you would take my advice.

Again, back to *my* point. In *our* discussion (the case I was talking about) you misquoted Boachie and did not include the link, and you used the misquote to correct my statement that fusion was no guarantee that one would not have future problems. So, you used a misquote of Boachie to correct a statement of mine which was in agreement with Boachie. And then, again, when I protested, you became unpleasant.

In responding to the this statement of mine (about what you'd done in my case) you told me how you usually use the quote (to correct people who say that fusions will always cause lumbar problems). I replied that you were not correcting such an error *in the case I was talking about* To which you now respond with your correct use of the quote. Which, again, is entirely irrelevant.

I have not claimed that you are *always* wrong - that would be hyperbole. What I said is that you are *often* wrong, and that you often, emphatically and insultingly, defend that wrong position.

And, yes, I would like you to correct that. Not because it's my advice, but because you might consider, on your own, that it was the right thing to do.

hdugger
01-11-2014, 09:45 AM
Actually, briefly, back to the thread you cited - in the earlier discussion with Jinseeker.

You quote your doctor - "one stop shopping"

Then you (correctly and fully) quote Boachie (who, in contrast to your doctor, only says that these higher fusions *can* be OK for life, provided thus and such. That is, he is almost saying the opposite - one kind of fusion is *guaranteed to cause problems* but these higher fusions might not.)

But then, just a few posts later, you're saying that your doctor AND Boachie BOTH say that it's one stop shopping - " Fusion for other curves including high T curves, TL and L curves are not considered definitive in the same way that Boachie and our surgeon consider fusions that stay above L1 to be definitive and one-stop shopping for surgery."

Again, the issue is that Boachie is a very respected and well-known scoliosis surgeon, and your misquote of him might well make someone considering surgery think that Boachie himself is offering some kind of guarantee.

Would it be possible for you to clean up that misquote, where you find it?

flerc
01-11-2014, 09:58 PM
She should not be allowed also to post about surgeries issues.
What a good forum this will be without Pooka1 here.. at least it would have a good chance to not be what it is.

flerc
02-14-2014, 10:24 AM
If asking for evidence for claims drives people away then I don't see the problem.

If they have evidence then they will post it. They will WANT to post it. It won't be like pulling teeth. People being driven away is an imaginary problem in terms of mattering to patients and parents. No evidence of treatment efficacy is lost because the people going away seem to be doing so to avoid being asked for evidence. They may feel driven away if they don't want to be asked for evidence.

Again, I don't see the problem. People are free to discuss what they are doing. If they are trying something that has no known evidence of efficacy then they should be told that. As soon as they make claims of efficacy, the requests for evidence should start rolling in. Conservative and alternative methods aspire to be a science. They should want to prove their efficacy instead of it being pulling teeth. People objecting to this are not doing science. Martha Hawes obviously would never object to people asking to see her radiographs to back up her claims. And she certainly would never think to publish without radiographs. You could have invented the most effective PT treatment in the world but if you don't have radiographs proving it, people have to take the claim on faith. Maybe the inventors are satisfied with just helping people who happen to hear about the method and take a leap of faith when they could be helping many, many more people if they publish. Maybe just picking off select people to help is okay rather than trying to help more people.

They can come here to let people know and to recruit but once the claims of efficacy are made, then evidence is required.

Nobody should be driven away for stating a new treatment, admitting there is no evidence of efficacy yet, and offering to help people learn the method to see if it is effective. Nobody should be driven away for repeating what an alternative treatment purveyor told them about curve regression. That is not happening here. What is happening here is pressure to pony up evidence of efficacy claims that drive people away.

Losing people who don't agree evidence is required for claims is an imaginary problem. People may be leaving but that is no loss to the community. Science is the only game in town and will win because it works.

Of course this is absolutely ON TOPIC, so it shouldn’t be deleted! Also I’m not attacking anybody, only talking about facts, so I shouldn’t be banned. Of course this not guarantees it will not happen, but certainly I’m not sure if it has any sense for me to remains in a forum like this. It hadn’t any sense for many other people, great people, smart people, wise people, why it should to have sense for me?

As I said I only talk about facts, with too much evidence here.
Of course people are being driven away here since years ago and only in a miniscule percentage (if really there was some case) because they don’t agree that evidence is required when claims are done. The majority of the dozens, hundreds or thousands of the rest of cases leaving this forum was because people don’t want to be attacked and the minimal set of people not having problem with that kind of attacks, don’t want to waste the time, without having the chance to obtain what they wants to obtain here.

And how might they obtain what they want if all people being attacked leave the forum? With whom can I talk here about non surgical treatments? If a new member arises saying something, immediately the thread is hijacked making absolutely impossible for anyone to share information/experiences/analyze some specific issues/methods/principles/articles/ideas…….. And the way to hijack is always the same, saying the same, sometimes in different ways: ‘there is not evidence’.

But since when someone trying to stop what you are doing, showing the lack of sense of saying that and the damage you are making to many people really, is threatened to be banned as I was, the 'merit' of being driving people away is not yours, it belongs to the moderator!

Pooka1
02-14-2014, 11:56 AM
Of course people are being driven away here since years ago and only in a miniscule percentage (if really there was some case) because they donít agree that evidence is required when claims are done.

COMPLETELY disagree. It is the VAST PERCENTAGE that resent being asked for evidence or having to think in terms of evidence at all.

I don't see the problem of losing people like this. It's like losing creationists for a biology forum. Good riddance!

flerc
02-14-2014, 12:20 PM
The vast precentaje? None case should to be fired in a dishonest way!
But anyway, do you remember some case fulfilling what you are saying? I not
Instead I may name a lot of people having nothing to do with what you are saying.
But we may talk about one. You may consider I was fired from this forum because the reasons I gave before and you cannot say I fulfill what you are saying of course.

flerc
02-14-2014, 12:29 PM
Certainly is you who fulfill what you say and you never will be driven away, because the reasons I gave in the last of what I said.


What do you believe? Do you think I'm baiting you? I don't want to be banned just now.

flerc
02-14-2014, 01:09 PM
What do you believe? Do you think I'm baiting you?

I don't think that of course.

susancook
02-14-2014, 05:12 PM
I hope that your dual discussions on THIS THREAD can provide an outlet or therapy for both of you so that you can confine your bantering just here.[B].


Your comments very distracting on other threads where members of the forum are trying to get advice/support/compassion from other members on their problems or questions about [B]scoliosis.

I hope that prospective members do not pull up this thread and are frightened off the forum for fear that they might incur the wrath of your negativism and criticism.

Susan

flerc
02-14-2014, 05:47 PM
I hope that your dual discussions on THIS THREAD can provide an outlet or therapy for both of you so that you can confine your bantering just here.[B].


Your comments very distracting on other threads where members of the forum are trying to get advice/support/compassion from other members on their problems or questions about [B]scoliosis.

I hope that prospective members do not pull up this thread and are frightened off the forum for fear that they might incur the wrath of your negativism and criticism.



I agree I need therapy, but because is no normal to remain so many years here. In your case is absolutely different of course. You also think that only surgery really works, so nobody never attacks you. You are free to comment what you want in threads of your interest without nobody hijacking it.
And I also want this problem would be encapsulated in this thread. I hope the discussion about evidence or not evidence, science or folk science, and so on will never be repeated in other thread!

susancook
02-16-2014, 05:31 AM
I agree I need therapy, but because is no normal to remain so many years here. In your case is absolutely different of course. You also think that only surgery really works, so nobody never attacks you. You are free to comment what you want in threads of your interest without nobody hijacking it.
And I also want this problem would be encapsulated in this thread. I hope the discussion about evidence or not evidence, science or folk science, and so on will never be repeated in other thread!

Re: your comment: " I agree that I need therapy, but because is no normal to remain so many years".
I do not understand what you mean in the second part of your sentence.

Re: your comment: "In your case is absolutely different of course. You also think that only surgery really works, so nobody ever attacks you."
How do you know what I think? You cannot tell me what i think. Have you even asked me? In fact, I do not believe that only surgery works.
Others on the forum have questioned some of the things that I have said, if you call that "attacked".

Re: your comment: "And I also want this problem would be encapsulated in this thread".
I do not understand what you mean.

Re: your comment: "I hope the discussion about evidence or not evidence, science or folk science, and so on will never be repeated in other thread!"
I doubt it.

Susan, honestly trying to understand your posting, but need help here.......

PS: Maybe I am reading into this, but I think that you are saying that my comments indicate that I have a personal problem with you. I don't know anything about you, your history, nor have we ever exchanged PMs. It is not you that I find difficulty with, it is your behavior.

PS2: Will someone who knows how to post someone else's comment in a bubble and then respond with your comment, and then go on to the other Person's comment in the bubble, and then post your own comment, pls send me a PM and tell me how you do it. I had to delete the previous attempt to post this. Thanks.

Pooka1
02-16-2014, 09:01 AM
"I hope the discussion about evidence or not evidence, science or folk science, and so on will never be repeated in other thread!"

I doubt it.

LOL. I doubt it also. That would be a free-for-all for every charlatan out there.

The only reason to limit demands for evidence is when people know they don't have it and resent being asked. That's not a legitimate reason to stop asking for evidence. If someone resents being asked for evidence of efficacy then they shouldn't be posting on a forum about a serious medical issue.

Science is the only game in town. Flerc doesn't like that.

flerc
02-16-2014, 09:45 AM
Re: your comment: " I agree that I need therapy, but because is no normal to remain so many years".
I do not understand what you mean in the second part of your sentence.


If you see my posts, you could see how almost always I finish inevitably with a large discussion with Pooka1. If I spend my time here, I should to obtain some benefit as everyone posting here and which could be my benefit discussing with her? Is not sane of course.




Re: your comment: "In your case is absolutely different of course. You also think that only surgery really works, so nobody ever attacks you."
How do you know what I think? You cannot tell me what i think. Have you even asked me? In fact, I do not believe that only surgery works.


If I agrree in something with her is in the definition about 'works'. If cannot avoid a surgery then don't work. I was sure you (as Pooka1 always says) think that non surgical methods don't work in that sense and if I was wrong take my apologies. In fact it would not be a problem for me; as I said in different posts I had really many friendly chats with people in other forums thinking that, why not? You may be sure this is the only forum in the world were people thinking different is attacked and not allowed to obtain some benefit spending their time here and being threatened where trying to change that unfair situation.



Others on the forum have questioned some of the things that I have said, if you call that "attacked".


People saying to be attacked was before my first post here. Insults as 'ignorant', 'desperate', quack, charlatan.. and every kind of verbal agression that someone may imagine is an attack of course. She call it 'driving people away'. Of course doing impossible to talk in these sections is also an attack. Probably you have never read Pooka1's thread doing her work here. It would be possible if you don't use to visits non surgical sections.



Re: your comment: "And I also want this problem would be encapsulated in this thread".
I do not understand what you mean.


To encapsulate is to confine something into a limited space, as it could be this thread.

I said her many (really many) times before that if she would not be dishonest she would only say all what she says when she does her work in ONLY one thread. I challenged her to accept that kind of debate in an exclusive thread thinking that if finally it results clear the non sense (I'm not attacking, is a fact!) of all what she ever says as of course shoul happens, she would never repeat it never more in other threads.
But look what she is doing again. She refuse to debate. She only attacks me saying me 'charlatan' and so on, because she knows the POWER here is in her favour and against me. She may attacks me, insults me, but I not. Do you think it is fair?. Say me please.
And certainly, why to accept a debat in only one thread? It would be clearly against her work here of course!



Re: your comment: "I hope the discussion about evidence or not evidence, science or folk science, and so on will never be repeated in other thread!"
I doubt it.


I don't. Certainly this forum is now a surgical forum. See the Activity Stream. All surgical posts! This of course has nothing to do with a non surgical thread. People thinking in non surgical options was 'fired' (they was enough sane), I may say I'm the last and probably this would be my last post. What do you think someone new seeing this could think? Wow! in the most visited scoliosis forum of the world, they only talk about surgery! Why she will need to continue with her work? It's done.

jrnyc
02-16-2014, 09:54 AM
i have not had surgery...no one limits my posts or shuts me
down...
i have not solved my scoliosis problem as i think there is no
solving it...i just put band aids on it as it were...
now it is having an impact on my hips...
being unevenly "loaded" puts differing stress on my hips
and they are becoming inflamed, developing bursitis, etc...

i have no problem being heard, even though i have not had
surgery...yet...despite almost every surgeon telling me to...
but i have not accepted it for personal reasons...
i think it is the only "successful" treatment for scoliosis right now...
so therefore, i continue to suffer the effects of scoli that has not
yet been corrected with surgery....
i get shots sometimes, but overdosed on steroids to the point
of my cortisol crashing...so i had to stop having shots in my spine..
the sacroiliac joint shots provided alot of relief...i miss them.

no one has limited me in any way that i know of on forum...
then again, i am not here to insult anyone or throw slings or
arrows at anyone...
or to fight with anyone...
so that is my statement...i will not engage in any fighting...

jess...and Sparky

Pooka1
02-16-2014, 09:57 AM
If I agree in something with her is in the definition about 'works'. If cannot avoid a surgery then don't work.

Yes when it comes to kids. The end game of bracing and PT is avoiding surgery for life. No rational kid would try it if that wasn't the goal. Look at the BrAIST paper. It is all stated in terms of avoiding surgery (at point of maturity with a curve <50* with up to 25% growth remaining). Now rational people can possibly disagree that avoiding surgery should be the endpoint for kids but that doesn't change the fact that the kids and the researchers are focused on this issue.


Certainly this forum is now a surgical forum. See the Activity Stream. All surgical posts! People thinking in non surgical options was 'fired' (they was enough sane), I may say I'm the last and probably this would be my last post. What do you think someone new seeing this could think? Wow! in the most visited scoliosis forum of the world, they only talk about surgery! Why she will need to continue with her work? It's done.

I am doing my part to help make this an evidence-based forum. Because most of the evidence of efficacy is for surgical treatments, you interpret that as being pro-surgery. You can't seem to tease these issues apart so you are continually confused in your posts. I don't make the news... I just report it. You mistakenly think I make the news. This isn't my field. That said, I can read papers and I was claiming the bracing literature was a train wreck for years. Researchers in the field agreed with me. Did you know it was a train wreck? If not then maybe you are not able to follow along and should reel your comments in much more.

Pooka1
02-16-2014, 11:07 AM
Certainly is you who fulfill what you say and you never will be driven away, because the reasons I gave in the last of what I said.

I am always open to evidence. Evidence is king. I change my mind when confronted with evidence.

You can start posting evidence any time now. I continue to wait. I will criticize counterfactual posts from you until then. No need to keep rehashing the dynamics of the exchanges here.

flerc
02-16-2014, 03:08 PM
This ‘discussion’ could have sense for you but not for me. We had had it a lot of times before and certainly you had it not only with me. Finally you not reply any more when is definitely obvious you cannot do it or the thread/post is deleted/shut down. Certainly it happened in this thread until Susancook posted.
But after a time you begin again saying exactly the same that I or other have proved to had not any sense.

Not only my wife say me how much insane I am, wastig my time in this not productve and absurd way. People around the world seeing this forums may me jokes, or say me they also wants to say here the same I’m saying, but I should to know how much useless is try to change what happens here. And certainly I used to say this forum cannot be changed from inside, so it has not any sense of course what I'm doing.

I was entering as a perfect idiot since time ago into your white/black game. You did the same to many other people leaving the forum and certainly it works only because the power is with you. Not the force of course, the power, just only the power, but the power always win.
Do you know the white/blak dog joke?

A man had a white and a black dogs, but he only talked about the white, never about the black. One day a man asked him why he did it. '

‘Well, do you know? The white dog is extremely powerful, he may kill a wild boar in few minutes'
Ok, I'm understand, only the white can do it
'No, of course the black may also do it'
But why then you only talk about the white if the black can also do it?
'because the white is very smart!'
Ok.. the black is stupid?
'Not of course, he also is very smart'
But why then you only talk about the white if the black is also smart?
'because the white..'
..
and so on..
..
Do you believe I'm stupid?, why the hell do you only talk about the white if the black does exactly the same?
‘Well, do you know? Because the white dog is extremely powerful, he may kill a wild boar in few minutes'

This man of course would be a perfect idiot if he would begin again asking ‘why do you only talk.....?’ Don't you believe?
In the same way I would be a perfect idiot if I begin again to show the lack of sense in saying for instance what you say about the lack of evidence as I did again in these days in a deleted thread. Again you will jump to something different as saying that I'm doing folk science, when I show the lack of sense in saying that, you may jump to braces saying waht you use to say, when again I show the lack of sense in saying this, then you may attack me, insulting me as you recently did. Then after my reply the thread may be deleted/shut down or you may simply not reply in this thread and tomorrow or next week, again you will begin again to say what you are saying about evidence..

I have not time to this absurd game. I may show to be something insane (who may be absolutely sane in this kind of world?) but to show to be definetely stupid is of course something very different.
Instead of continues playing this game I could demonstrate you just one more time again the lack of sense (is a fact) of all what you say in your confusing style, if I could have guarantees it would not be deleted again what I say and if it would be a way of having a serious debate here and after it, you will never repeat nothing about evidence, folk science, ignorant people, charlatans, useless teen braces.. in other thread hijacking it or attacking people as you ever does. If you would be really honest and you would really believe what you say and really you would want to help people showing facts, you should to simply quote what you said in the ‘debate thread’ and leave people to take their own conclusions and not saying to the world that only surgery works, repeating and repeating hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands the same in every non surgical thread doing impossible for everyone to obtain what should to be obtained from this forum and having instead to shows you how much wrong is all what you say again and again..

But how many times I said it before? Why I suppose this large post will not be deleted? Of course you'll ignore everything I'm saying and continue doing the same you always do.
It seems I continue playing the cyclic white/black dog game. Not any more.
Your immoral work is done, but as I said you, the 'merit' belongs to the power not to you.

susancook
02-16-2014, 04:58 PM
Hello Flerc, just wanted you to know that I read your lengthy reply to my entry.

I agree with you that it is never appropriate for anyone to stoop to the level of name calling.

I do know the definition of "encapsulate", I just do not understand the meaning and your context. I still do not understand what you mean after you explained it.

I am having difficulty understanding many of your statements.

You said that this is a "surgical forum". I do not agree with you. I started or added to numerous threads about non-surgical treatments, specifically denervations, corticosteroid injections, chiropractic treatment, TENS units, massage, use of heat/cold, exercise, analgesic and muscle relaxant medications, and probably others that I cannot think of off the top of my head. Some of the information may be embedded in surgical threads, but I know for sure that I have as have others posted and responded about non-surgical approaches. There is a huge section on bracing that I have only responded in for post-surgical treatment, but others have commented on at length. It is probably true that many people access the forum because they are considering surgery. Many people, in addition to myself have commented that surgery is the LAST choice that someone with scoliosis should consider. Non-surgical treatments/modalities should be considered.

Flerc, I apologize if this is taken as a negative comment as it certainly is not intended as such, but is English your second language?

Re: your concern about your statements being deleted. In one thread that I know of, the entire thread was deleted (and it did contain many of your comments as well as some of mine) because the thread was about a physical problem that a member was having for which she was requesting suggestions for treatment or support from others who may have had the same physical post-surgical problem. The thread turned into an EXTENSIVE discussion about a topic that was not related to the original physical problem in the thread. Thus, she deleted the entire thread.

I will check the forum for your response to this entry, but I think that I have adequately said everything, or more correctly, more than everything that I want to say and will exit this thread with this entry.

Goodbye,

Susan

Pooka1
02-16-2014, 05:13 PM
You said that this is a "surgical forum". I do not agree with you. I started or added to numerous threads about non-surgical treatments, specifically denervations, corticosteroid injections, chiropractic treatment, TENS units, massage, use of heat/cold, exercise, analgesic and muscle relaxant medications, and probably others that I cannot think of off the top of my head. Some of the information may be embedded in surgical threads, but I know for sure that I have as have others posted and responded about non-surgical approaches. There is a huge section on bracing that I have only responded in for post-surgical treatment, but others have commented on at length. It is probably true that many people access the forum because they are considering surgery. Many people, in addition to myself have commented that surgery is the LAST choice that someone with scoliosis should consider. Non-surgical treatments/modalities should be considered.

I think he means conservative treatments in growing kids and adults to avoid fusion due to progression but he can correct me if I'm wrong. Clearly conservative treatments are effective against pain in kids and adults. The lack of evidence has to due with stopping progression and avoiding surgery, not with the pain issue. Or at least that is what I bang on about in terms of asking for evidence and so that is what is is complaining about.


Flerc, I apologize if this is taken as a negative comment as it certainly is not intended as such, but is English your second language?

Flerc is from South America. Argentina if I recall correctly. His English is pretty good given that. I get 95% or better of what he is saying.

aterry
02-19-2014, 06:08 PM
I agree with Flerc that it is unfortunate that those who push surgery refuse to let others post without being attacked. I have pooka on an ignore status. Without that I would not be able to come to this site at all. Early in this thread someone used the word "intelligensia". Truly intelligent people do not relentlessly, and with cruelty, force their ideas on others. The relentless attacks make it nearly impossible for readers of this site to HOPE that some day there will be approaches to scoliosis that do not rely on surgery or to seek relief from pain through exercise and other therapies. I think Schadenfreude must be at play considering how frequently the surgical supporters are cruel.

My daughter has used exercise almost exclusively and it took time and effort but her pain diminished. If I had listened to Linda and pooka, and not the others who are exploring for progress in this field, my daughter would still be waking up in the middle of the night, every night, crying in pain.

In reference to the earlier back and forth about doctor Boachie. I took my daughter to him for a consultation. He was of absolutely NO HELP at all. I was very surprised at what a waste of time and money that visit turned out to be. I've read that his surgical skills have helped many people but I would not recommend him. The worst thing about where the money goes in the scoliosis field is that almost all of it goes to surgeons.

flerc
02-19-2014, 10:47 PM
I agree with Flerc that it is unfortunate that those who push surgery refuse to let others post without being attacked. I have pooka on an ignore status. Without that I would not be able to come to this site at all. Early in this thread someone used the word "intelligensia". Truly intelligent people do not relentlessly, and with cruelty, force their ideas on others. The relentless attacks make it nearly impossible for readers of this site to HOPE that some day there will be approaches to scoliosis that do not rely on surgery or to seek relief from pain through exercise and other therapies. I think Schadenfreude must be at play considering how frequently the surgical supporters are cruel.


Yes Aterry, is something really unfair.. as it was said before for others, imagine what could happen if we would be doing in surgical sections what she does here. We may repeat and repeat thousands of times that surgery don't works because there is no evidence that people having it are free of complications for all the life. If we would be enough bad persons to doing that, looking for discourage people trusting in surgery, as she tries to discourage to us, sure we would be banned.

But she not only can discourage people saying something similar every time, she also is free to justify what she does saying 'there is no evidence non surgical methods works'. This argument used thousands of times for her here, is inadmissible as I showed in other threads, the last was deleted.
So the problem here is not she really, is the lack of a moderator not allowing this unfair and insane situation. Why she don’t forces Pooka1 to not discredit any more non surgical options using absurd arguments?
Why this forum has a moderator doing this? Allowing someone as Pooka1 defaming non surgical options for ever? Why? If it would have some sense what she says.. ok, nobody should to talk in favour of non surgical treatments and this should to be a 'Surgical Forum' as now it really is.

But why she allows her to repeat and repeat until the end of the ages a non sense argument any time someone wants to talk about non surgery methods, doing absolutely impossible to continue talking about the issue of the thread?
Of course Pooka1 will never accept by her own to have a serious discussion defending her argument, she should to be forced to accept it and if she fails to prove it’s not inadmissible as we know it is, then it should to be forbidden for her to repeat it any more, defaming every time what she don’t knows.

Pooka1
02-20-2014, 06:36 AM
Yes Aterry, is something really unfair..

That's also what the flat-earthers, alchemists, creationists and Holocaust deniers say.


So the problem here is not she really, is the lack of a moderator not allowing this unfair and insane situation. Why she don’t forces Pooka1 to not discredit any more non surgical options using absurd arguments?
Why this forum has a moderator doing this? Allowing someone as Pooka1 defaming non surgical options for ever? Why? If it would have some sense what she says.. ok, nobody should to talk in favour of non surgical treatments and this should to be a 'Surgical Forum' as now it really is.

The problem is lack of even basic science training among lay people because it has been undermined continuously and that the BBB does not have the time or probably the patience to patrol medical fora. They would have a field day.


But why she allows her to repeat and repeat until the end of the ages a non sense argument any time someone wants to talk about non surgery methods, doing absolutely impossible to continue talking about the issue of the thread?
Of course Pooka1 will never accept by her own to have a serious discussion defending her argument, she should to be forced to accept it and if she fails to prove it’s not inadmissible as we know it is, then it should to be forbidden for her to repeat it any more, defaming every time what she don’t knows.

Control what your read, not what others write. Have a sense of self that is not defined by what others think. Read up on how science works and why it is the only game in town.

leahdragonfly
02-20-2014, 08:04 AM
flerc,

I will wade in to this fray for just a moment. Probably a waste of time but here goesÖ

I read most of your posts hoping for some substantive contribution to the forum, but I can never find any. All I can find are personal insults and name-calling of Pooka. It is getting so old. I wish for everyone's sake you could agree to disagree with her, say your peace about non-surgical treatments, move on, and quit destroying the forum.

You and I have exchanged some pleasant, constructive discourse in the past, but now I am sure you will add me to your enemy list. I have tried to ignore your volumes of negativity that are directed toward Pooka. But it is really just getting so ridiculousÖI have much better things to do with my time, so now I will put on my flame suit and sign off of this discussion. Maybe you should try to direct your energies towards a more useful endeavor.

flerc
02-20-2014, 08:15 AM
That's also what the flat-earthers, alchemists, creationists and Holocaust deniers say.



The problem is lack of even basic science training among lay people because it has been undermined continuously and that the BBB does not have the time or probably the patience to patrol medical fora. They would have a field day.



Control what your read, not what others write. Have a sense of self that is not defined by what others think. Read up on how science works and why it is the only game in town.

You are just only saying more of the same as ever. It’s all what you have, but if you would not be dishonest and really thinks it’s fair and necessary your immoral work here, not allowing us to get what we need form this forum, you would not refuse as you are doing to have serious and LAST discussion about your absurd arguments and not repeat them any more after I show you again the non sense of what you say.
See how I’m repeating what I said in previous posts and you didn’t reply. This is your game, you have time for this, I not. I’m here like others because we need to solve a serious health problem, you not. I’m wrong? How many times I asked you this?

You refuse to leave this coward game because you know the moderator, LindaRacine allows you to do it for ever and of course she shouldn’t. She only appeared to ban to talk about some non surgical issues or to shut down or delete posts/thresds showing how much obvious is what you do or threatened people trying to stop your immoral work .

It has not any sense to discuss with you, we should to say this to the moderator and in any case discuss with her, not with you. But of course she don’t need to discuss, she may continues doing what she does because she has the power and the power not need to be logic or fair, the power always win!

mariaf
02-20-2014, 08:52 AM
I agree with Flerc that it is unfortunate that those who push surgery refuse to let others post without being attacked. I have pooka on an ignore status. Without that I would not be able to come to this site at all. Early in this thread someone used the word "intelligensia". Truly intelligent people do not relentlessly, and with cruelty, force their ideas on others. The relentless attacks make it nearly impossible for readers of this site to HOPE that some day there will be approaches to scoliosis that do not rely on surgery or to seek relief from pain through exercise and other therapies. I think Schadenfreude must be at play considering how frequently the surgical supporters are cruel.

My daughter has used exercise almost exclusively and it took time and effort but her pain diminished. If I had listened to Linda and pooka, and not the others who are exploring for progress in this field, my daughter would still be waking up in the middle of the night, every night, crying in pain.

In reference to the earlier back and forth about doctor Boachie. I took my daughter to him for a consultation. He was of absolutely NO HELP at all. I was very surprised at what a waste of time and money that visit turned out to be. I've read that his surgical skills have helped many people but I would not recommend him. The worst thing about where the money goes in the scoliosis field is that almost all of it goes to surgeons.

Hi aterry,

I'm so glad your daughter was able to achieve a reduction in pain through exercise. I think there are a number of methods that may work for pain, even if they may not reduce curves.

I am not a fan of Dr. Boachie's myself, but as for most of the money in the field going to surgeons, let's not lump them all together because many of them are good guys and more importanly, have changed many lives for the better.

All the best to you and your daughter!

Pooka1
02-20-2014, 08:59 AM
Iím here like others because we need to solve a serious health problem, you not. !

Here's a potential problem in your analysis. Only the medical research geneticists and physiologists can hope to solve the etiology, not lay people doing armchair biochemistry.

And only the surgeons and medical researchers can hope to solve the treatments in a convincing way which is not to say some individuals haven't stopped their progression through PT. It's just that they can't prove it and it is unlikely.

Remember even K. Schroth was a lay person and it shows. Her grandson, a trained researcher, finally abandoned the method after spending years trying to make it work.

flerc
02-20-2014, 09:00 AM
You and I have exchanged some pleasant, constructive discourse in the past,

Yes, with you and how many others members, leaving this forum after realizing the non sense to remains here with this never stopping immoral work. How much constructive and pleasant chats with Kevin_Mc, Tom, Hdugger.. how many people realized what it seems it was very difficult for me?
But only because Aterry commented what he commented I appeared again here. This forum cannot be changed from inside, it has not any sense all of this. The Power (in the moderator's hands here supporting this immoral work as explained before), always win.

flerc
02-20-2014, 05:10 PM
Yes, with you and how many others members


It seems I confused you with other member; is difficult for me to imagine to have exchanged something pleasant and constructive with someone always supporting what Pooka1 is doing here, talking about sadistic parents bracing their kids (you also should to be prosecuted) and sharing with her all her glum discourse. Certainly I only remember your insults to me as you are doing again.



I read most of your posts hoping for some substantive contribution to the forum, but I can never find any. All I can find are personal insults and name-calling of Pooka. It is getting so old. I wish for everyone's sake you could agree to disagree with her, say your peace about non-surgical treatments, move on, and quit destroying the forum.

You and I have exchanged some pleasant, constructive discourse in the past, but now I am sure you will add me to your enemy list. I have tried to ignore your volumes of negativity that are directed toward Pooka. But it is really just getting so ridiculous…I have much better things to do with my time, so now I will put on my flame suit and sign off of this discussion. Maybe you should try to direct your energies towards a more useful endeavor.


Of course is clear why you see my insults to her but not her insults to me to Aterry, to all the good people looking for non surgical treatments, something useless for you, but as your friend, you have not the knowledge/intelligence/background and nothing in order to justify that dishonest surgical promotion in these sections.
Someone really having knowlege, intelligence, background as Kevin_Mc, said here something very different about my contribtions in these sections. Of course nobody as him may never say the same about yours.

Maybe you try to direct your energies (with your flame suit on) far from these non surgical sections.. it would be great, as your frined you also has nothing to do here, except supporting her immoral work.

flerc
02-20-2014, 05:28 PM
Aterry, you have your PM Inbox full.

Pooka1
02-20-2014, 06:22 PM
ďThe good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.Ē -- Neil deGrasse Tyson

"Science will win because it works.Ē ― Stephen Hawking

Note to flerc and aterry

flerc
02-20-2014, 06:40 PM
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” -- Neil deGrasse Tyson

"Science will win because it works.” ― Stephen Hawking

Note to flerc and aterry

Good googlesearcher.. but you need some background to understand what you find..

Pooka1
02-20-2014, 06:57 PM
Good googlesearcher.. but you need some background to understand what you find..

There is no reason to be bitter. You can learn about the scientific method if you want to do so. You could contribute to the group if you learn more about how science works.

flerc
02-20-2014, 07:34 PM
Certainly you don't need to get any background to understand what you find in your searchers, it's not necessary in order do your work here.
You cannot quote absolutely nothing mine suggesting I have not science background, but I can quote tons of your posts. Certainly I opend a thread saying to new members here what to do in order to believe or not what you are saying about you are a scientist. Of course was deleted..
But nobody following this thread may believe you are a scientist. A scientist would never refuse to have a logic debate as you did.

Pooka1
02-20-2014, 07:36 PM
Are you as certain of all your ideas as you are certain I am not a scientist?

(Watch this, folks.)

flerc
02-20-2014, 07:54 PM
I'm certain a scientist are logic people so is very much difficult to hear them saying ilogic, with non sense as you use to do here. Specially when you try to justify your immoral work here (a fact with tons of evidence).
A scientist only may do something as you do, in the way as you do it, if he would be forced to do it., or if he would be iinsane..
I have no way to be sure how you do this here, so I cannot be absolutely sure you are not a scientist.

susancook
02-21-2014, 02:26 AM
I am so pleased that Flerc and Pooka1 have a place to argue. Keep it here and away from discussions related to surgical and non-surgical options for scoliosis, so that I do not have to read it!
Susan

flerc
02-21-2014, 10:52 AM
Discussions arises when she begins with her dark nonsense discourse in order to discourage about non surgical treatments and someone here knowing what she does, tries to avoid it. It’s a fact!! Otherwise she would accept to defend that dishonest surgery promoter discourse in a ruled and logics discussion without coward and dirty evasive techniques allowed.
But be quiet because it seems that nobody else will protects innocent people, usually new here, so surely this kind of discussion will not be seen never more.
This is not the only place of course in the world ruled by injustice and discrimination (against non surgical followers in this case) seeming to have dark purposes and where the power does the rules in order to perpetuating the unfair/insane situation and of course the power always win. It has not any sense to fight against it.

Pooka1
02-21-2014, 11:12 AM
I am so pleased that Flerc and Pooka1 have a place to argue. Keep it here and away from discussions related to surgical and non-surgical options for scoliosis, so that I do not have to read it!
Susan

There are no boundaries to where science belongs on a medical forum. If someone challenges science anywhere on the forum I will step up. I don't look where posts are made (surgical versus nonsurgical). I just look at the new posts list. I couldn't tell you where those posts are on the forum because I don't know and don't care.

This is a serious medical issue, not a game.

flerc
02-21-2014, 12:40 PM
If it would be true you should to be fighting against yourself every time. To make non sense assertions is against scientist reasoning, so you have thousands of posts to reply yourself your challenge to science!.
But certainly you are insulting it since you are saying to be a scientist. Where do you see a scientist giving non sense arguments to justify his actions? Is what you do, is a fact as I explained in my previous post. And when did you see a scientist refusing to prove to be one and refusing to have the kind of discussion I challenged you to have. It seems you have not shame really. But you know that while the power here protects you, you may continue saying all the nonsenses you like to say.

aterry
02-21-2014, 01:28 PM
Thank you for your good wishes, mariaf. I'm not anti surgeons. We met with B. Lonner twice and he had a broader response and seemed to be a little interested in other approaches to scoliosis. I'm not anti-surgeon. I'm anti the majority of money in the field going to surgeons and surgeons controlling so much of the research. I'm anti the notion that there is nothing to be done except wait until you need surgery. Where would we be if all the money in polio research had gone only to building better iron lungs? When I visit the clinical trials web site it is so discouraging. So little going on. There is research at a Swedish center where they are comparing approaches but the exercise part of it seems so limited: "Scoliosis specific exercises. The intervention will be delivered in 3 x 90 minute sessions, once per month during the first 3 months." ... "Additional postural specific exercises including self-mediated hyper-corrective exercises are to be performed with moderate intensity at least for 30 minutes at least 2-3 times per week. Other physical activities to fulfill the general recommended quota of more than 60 minutes moderate intensity physical activity per day are recommended. Reinforcement of the intervention will be performed in conjunction with reassessment every 6 months. A training diary will be implemented to follow and motivate the patient's training behaviour."

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01761305?term=scoliosis&rank=2.

I don't see how that's enough of an exercise regimen to make a difference in any condition. I don't think non-surgical approaches are being given serious attention. It's not because "scientists" know best. It's because the field is controlled by those with a narrow view.

The NIH announced recently that there is a joint effort to make progress in five areas: http://www.nih.gov/news/health/feb2014/od-04.htm
I wish them well. Such intense research in those five areas will probably have spill over effect that help other areas, too, but I feel glum over how little is being done to understand scoliosis.

susancook
02-21-2014, 02:03 PM
There are no boundaries to where science belongs on a medical forum. If someone challenges science anywhere on the forum I will step up. I don't look where posts are made (surgical versus nonsurgical). I just look at the new posts list. I couldn't tell you where those posts are on the forum because I don't know and don't care.

This is a serious medical issue, not a game.

As a medical researcher, I could not agree with you more that scientifically grounded evidence based decisions are important.

Since I do not read the vast majority of the conversations that have occurred on some threads that are the back and forth bantering, i have no idea what exactly triggers it or exactly who is perpetuating it. I am not blaming you. I do know that the discussion goes from "I have a back/pain/scoliosis problem and need some help/suggestions" to parrying for position, name calling, one up-man ship, etc. Then the back problem and the person's asking for help is lost and everyone gives up on the help for the back problem.

I have found that when I discover that I fell into a conversation with people that are stubborn, not open to considering alternative perspectives, and that base their information solely on personal experience or hearsay instead of on scientifically/research based outcomes, I state my conclusions or summary and then may restate in another way it if I feel that they did not hear or understand me. Then, when it appears that we are not having a useful dialog at that point or if it degenerates to name calling, I usually say something like, "decisions should be based on evidence based information and since this conversation is degenerating quickly out of that kind of discussion, I will not be having any more discussion on this topic, bye".

Best of luck in your defense of science, but know when to fold 'em. Susan

Pooka1
02-21-2014, 02:15 PM
I do know that the discussion goes from "I have a back/pain/scoliosis problem and need some help/suggestions" to parrying for position, name calling, one up-man ship, etc. Then the back problem and the person's asking for help is lost and everyone gives up on the help for the back problem.

I step in when someone makes a claim of efficacy for stopping progression and especially stopping progression that avoids surgery without evidence or with poor evidence. Pain seems more amenable to conservative treatments or at least PT should be tried before surgery for pain as far as I know.

If progression could be stopped then there would be no surgery. But we don't obtain that result.


I have found that when I discover that I fell into a conversation with people that are stubborn, not open to considering alternative perspectives, and that base their information solely on personal experience or hearsay instead of on scientifically/research based outcomes, I state my conclusions or summary and then may restate in another way it if I feel that they did not hear or understand me. Then, when it appears that we are not having a useful dialog at that point or if it degenerates to name calling, I usually say something like, "decisions should be based on evidence based information and since this conversation is degenerating quickly out of that kind of discussion, I will not be having any more discussion on this topic, bye".

Best of luck in your defense of science, but know when to fold 'em. Susan

I'll take this advice onboard. Thanks.

flerc
02-21-2014, 06:18 PM
If progression could be stopped then there would be no surgery. But we don't obtain that result.


We?? Be careful. If you fully explain to real scientists your 'there is no evidence' argument and how you use it to justify what you do here, of course would be obvious for them the non sense of your discourse and lead them to think in how dark seems to be your purpose here, and Susan is saying to be one and there is no reason as I know to suppose she also may be only a pretender.

I remember how you also tricked to me when I was new in this forum and I didn't see your work here yet.. someone seeming to talk in the name of science, copying phrases of Stephen Hawking and other genious.. I also supported you in a discussion you had with the great members of those times. I didn't realize what happened.. and when it began to be unsustainable for you, all the thread was deleted.. then I began to understand what was happening here.

But why do you don't fully explain to me in this thread your 'there is no evidence' argument? Of course following rules in order to avoid evasive and dirty tecniques doing impossible to not loose the focus of the reasonings. If you are a scientist as you say, you cannot be afraid to confront in a logic discussion a lay person without any idea about what science means as you are saying I am. You say to work here to defends the name of science. What do you believe may think all the people following this thread?.. 1500 vivists since my #132 post here! You should not disappoint them!