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flerc
01-30-2013, 12:30 PM
I want to know if it is something common in IS as it seems to be (because abdominal weakness) in some diseases causing scoliosis as Pompe.
I want to know that, since a chiropractor surgeon (both specialties) said me once that a prominent abdomen is a condition present in someone having a big curve and I believe he was not thinking in hyperlordosis (what sure lead to it)
I believe I finally understood why a firm abdomen is really something important to avoid progression and I suppose that abdominal muscular weakness should to provoke a prominent abdomen.

Thanks in advance!

rohrer01
01-30-2013, 08:13 PM
I don't have a prominent abdomen. I suppose it depend on where the curve is. If it causes your rib cage to hit your hips, then the tummy has nowhere to go but out.

flerc
01-31-2013, 02:08 PM
Hi Rorher! How are you? Thanks for your reply, is something important for me to know about that, because it would be the last step in the análisis I’m doing about abdominal muscles. I conclude after an extremely simple and elemental reasoning I did in the last days, that are really very important in the fight against the gravity force, the great enemy leading to progression. It’s a matter of physics laws. I cannot believe that nobody says nothing about that.. only the Abr (Advanced Biomechanical Rehabilitation) inventor says something having to do with my reasoning.. probably because he is physicist, who knows..
In a normal spine probably they are not so much useful (except for avoid vertebral displacement and hyperlordosis) but in a big scoliotic curve, I conclude is something really important, specially (or only, I’m not sure) for lumbar (or TL) curves. This could be the reason about why you may have not weak abdominals, If I not remember bad, your curve is not lumbar and also is very probably that not idiopatic, probably another reason.

I have never read about prominent abdomen as a scoliosis sympton as I have read is for Pompe disease and they not say that could be a consequence of scoliosis, they says is because abdominal muscular weakness.
I don’t think that could be happening with my daugher what you say about ribs, she has now again a prominent abdomen since again she stop dancing. Some years ago with almost the same curve she has now, she had nothing prominent her abdomen and she was doing arabic dance and other so hard kind of dances that surely strenghten the ab muscles. I know many girls of her age, also thin some of them, not doing hard exercise and none of them has a prominent abdomen. My wife also has a prominent abdomen and we discovered recently she has a (so mild) scoliosis. Only when she was a competing athlete, she had not it prominent. Her sister of her same age is also very thin and have not it prominent, and as her sons, not scoliosis.

I believe that probably occurs in most IS cases but not in all, as seems to occurs with abnormal arches feet. Anyway to know that, play the rol of ‘evidence’ for me, that my reasoning is right. I’m almost decided to convince my daughter to do some kind of exercises to strenghten her abdomen. Time ago, I said to Kevin_Mc in another thread that I cannot imagine what may have to do muscular strenght in order to avoid progression and now I’m sure it's necessary.. I should to have a more fast mind..

I hope you are fine.

rohrer01
02-01-2013, 08:09 AM
Yes, it's nice to hear from you again, Flerc. As far as back health goes, strong abs are a must, not just for the scoliosis patient, but for everyone. Otherwise, people set themselves up for a lifetime of lower back pain. I really think it's more of a mechanical thing. My scoliosis was diagnosed as AIS. I strongly hold the opinion that curve location and severity are what contribute to a prominent abdomen. In those with mild curves or a healthy back, prominent abdomens, in my opinion, are probably due to lack of exercise of those muscles and possibly a poor diet. During one of my Anatomy and Physiology classes I learned that there are genetic characteristics that cause people to accumulate body fat in different parts of the body. This body fat distribution is important because certain types of fat distribution contribute more to cardiovascular disease. The "pear" shaped person supposedly has a lower risk for CV disease. It's the "apple" shaped person, one that carries fat accumulations above the legs, that is the highest risk for CV disease. I am very thin. However when I do gain weight, I tend to be an "apple" as are my sisters. So I exercise and keep myself at a healthy weight and do not carry excess belly fat.

If your daughter has stopped dancing, that would explain her gain of belly fat, especially if she is predisposed to it from her mother. Physical activity is important for everyone. The longer a person waits to start, the more difficult it seems to become to lose those unwanted pounds in the areas that count. I'm not convinced that this is scoli related, but more of a genetic predisposition since you see so many non-scoliotic people with the same problem.

I am not doing well. My scoliosis has caused impingement syndrome with my right scapula, which in turn, caused some rotator cuff damage. It's really painful. My ribs hurt as does my spine from top to bottom. I don't really know why my lower back hurts so much. I have mild arthritis and DDD with some mild facet joint disease at L5/S1. It doesn't seem enough to cause the kind of pain I have. I'm being sent back to the surgeon, who will probably do nothing. But I need my scoli evaluated again since it's been a few years.

Take care!

gardener
02-01-2013, 08:58 AM
My lumbar curve measures 63 and my abdomen defiinitely protrudes. I see a physiatrist on a regular basis and part of her routine evaluation is how much my abdomen protrudes. It's always mentioned on the notes. I'm slim and fit but the belly is always there. I am able to "suck it in" somewhat, but it hurts: my ribs sit on my pelvis and the pain is referred to where my ribs have rotated out in the back. A protruding belly is definitely the lesser problem!

flerc
02-02-2013, 03:05 PM
Hi Rohrer, certainly something good to talk with you again.
In fact there is a great discussion about the convenience in having strong abs. Here http://www.cpdo.net/lecture_notes/cs_presentation.ppt#265,1,The
you may find good arguments against that.
I know old people that never did something leading to strenghten their abs and never had back pain, but they had nor scoliosis, not lordosis. With a lumbar curve, I’d say it’s a matter of forces distribution. Certainly, what I’m now absolutely sure is that strong abs are a possitive static factor (I explained what I mean here: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?11214-Muscular-question-to-Dr-McIntire ) as we may say the same about resistant ligaments, but I should to know about so many anatomy facts in order to estimate how much they can improve the static structure, something absolutely important in the fight against the gravity force.

What I think is that if none with a lumbar curve has weak abdominals, it would be reasonable to believe that the contribution against the gravity force effect is very low, so it would seems better to dedicate time in other strategy.
Yes, I also suppose that there is a genetic predisposition in her case and I belive that probably is not only a matter of fat accumulation but a muscular weakness in that zone. It seems to be a fact that it provokes a prominent abdomen. I suppose that although a natural weakness, exercises strenghten them anyway, leading to the reduction of the belt and improving the structure resistant. Unfortunately sit up exercises seems to be bad for everybody.

I’m really sorry to know you continuos in pain. I’m not sure to understand the matter with your scapula.. the spine is touching it?
I agree that a surgeon will not do nothing.. except you were thinking in surgery.. I don’t remember if you think that would not be possible because something about fusion. Is not possible yet a fusionless surgery in adults? Something with only bars? I have read something about daytona, a new spine surgery, but they not mentions nothing about that.

I have read so much about arthritis and as I know there is not a surgery nor safe drugs for it, so you cannot expect nothing from official western medicine.. but it seems to be tons of alternatives out of it . Sure not so many alternatives, but something similar may be say about DDD.
The last I have read about arthritis is about a factor against it only present in butter from raw milk and breastmilk that seems to avoid the accumulation of calcium in joints.
I have read about ancestral eastern exercises and massages for neck that probably works with you. Something more hard and new would be Atlas Profilaxis.. anyway I believe you need to look for an actual Master in Chinese medicine. There are not so many around the world (even in China).. but surely you may find one in your country.
Don’t stop to look the best for you.
See you

titaniumed
02-02-2013, 03:54 PM
Hi Flerc

I used to have 6 pack abdominals when I was young from being an active snow skier, now I have just have the 6 pack.
If I come to Argentina and eat the great steaks you have and drink the great wine, I could end up in trouble from eating too much. It doesn’t sound bad to me.....One of these days I will fly down when I retire.

Some thoughts.......

The way back braces work is not so much supporting from the back, its from holding the abdomen in which forces pressure up on the rib cage in an upward direction. This of course is good for curves and maybe why I lasted so long without surgery. I was a surgical candidate in 1975.

I have found that traction and exercise at the same time is a good thing. On a treadmill with a vest tightly wrapped around my rib cage, upward pull of half my weight, and walking. I did this in 2000/2001.

I also helped my sciatica swimming in the ocean. This is a gravity release and exercising at the same time. I feel that the minerals and ocean salts had something to do with this success, since I tried in a pool and didn’t have the same results.

How old is your daughter now, and what are her curves?

Ed

flerc
02-02-2013, 07:10 PM
My lumbar curve measures 63 and my abdomen defiinitely protrudes. I see a physiatrist on a regular basis and part of her routine evaluation is how much my abdomen protrudes. It's always mentioned on the notes. I'm slim and fit but the belly is always there. I am able to "suck it in" somewhat, but it hurts: my ribs sit on my pelvis and the pain is referred to where my ribs have rotated out in the back. A protruding belly is definitely the lesser problem!

Hi Gardener, thanks for let me know about your case. I’m sorry to know about the problem you are having with your ribs. I cannot imagine if it may provokes your abdomen prominent. Surely you cannot have hyperlordosis, because is difficult to imagine the vertebras rotating in two different planes. May be you have your abs something weak and that's the cause?

I understand what you say about it’s not an actual problem for you, but I would agree if the prominent abdomen would not be because weak abs.
I suppose you had not surgery, so if it's the case, you are running a risk of progression.
Lumbar vertebras are holding more weight that all others and they are greater to support a vertical force, but (a priori) not an horizontal force as occurs with a curve in the frontal plane, so you would be needing to improve your structure and strong abs, would contribute to fight against that horizontal force tending to increase your curve.

Probably if you are able to suck it in, then your abs are not weak and what I'm asking, has not much sense..

I hope you may be fine

flerc
02-03-2013, 11:39 AM
Ed! Nice to hear you again. Let me know when you come here. I agree about great steaks and wine.. and surely you don’t know the “worst” of all, the sweet milk http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zylQJkxXl2Y/TjaR3Mo7jbI/AAAAAAAAAaQ/FIzKfLoTHjU/s1600/dulce+de+leche+2.jpg an argentine invention.. otherwise your stomach would be a flacid ball as mine, ha.
I’m (almost) vegetarian and not like so much alcoholic beverages..I’m so far to be a tippical argentine (except because sweet milk).. certainly I cannot understand how I could have been born here, but anyway I’ll do an exception and we’ll eat the best steaks and drink the best wine of Buenos Aires.. and of course tons of the best sweet milk Ha.

I like your thoughts very much.
What you say about that exercise remember me the invention of a father of a kid of my country with cerebral paralisis who cannot walk. He constructed a machine holding the torso of the kids and moving their feet forcing them to do a normal walk. Is incredible, but after a time using it they can walk!
Some years ago, when I began to think in scoliosis I thought in something very similar. I was obssesed with antigravity.. in fact with “negative gravity” (same magnitud but opposite direction) .. I thought that if instead of walking by the floor with the head up we walk by the roof head down, the scoliosis would not be a problem for nobody. Of course it not seemed possible so I thought how could be simulated and I imagined a complex automated system with something as movil suspenders in the roof and in the floor, holding the rib cage, the pelvis and feet, so being standing up, walking or sitting down, a force from the roof and other from the floor, simulating the “negative gravity” would keep the spine straight all the time, allowing all kind off movements. I was sure it would be incomparable better than any brace, except for the fact that only could be used at home..but I thought it would be so much expensive and I had not resource to something like that and I didn’t do nothing.
But this father not thought that, he also had not so much money, he is a panel beater without a science background, but he not accepted that his son could not walk as all physicians said him.

It was incredible for me to see some months ago the machine working. It’s also used for people with different affections. He said me about good outcomes also in IS cases..
Of course has little to do, but I like to think I not left at all the idea .. finally I could bought a house enough big to do a good swimming pool and I don´t think only in swimming but also in “diving”.. a so funny way to achieve the "negative gravity".. some weight in the feet and using a rubber ring. If I can do it, I’m sure my daughter would enjoy it and of course it will be absolutely safe.

I'll contunue with other comments about your good thoughts.
See you.

flerc
02-03-2013, 11:53 PM
What you say about that exercise remember me the invention of a father of a kid of my country with cerebral paralisis who cannot walk. He constructed a machine holding the torso of the kids and moving their feet forcing them to do a normal walk. Is incredible, but after a time using it they can walk!

I didn't copy any link..
http://www.voelio.com.ar/datostecnicos.php
http://www.voelio.com.ar/ivo.php

"Since 2008 ..it began to generate great improvements in Ivo.. he began with the design and production of the "march educator" although the negative of physicians and relatives

Before using Voelio (2007)
According to professionals, the only solution he had was an emergency risotomía to not luxate and continue deforming the hips. HE WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO WALK AGAIN"

It was a much commented and troubled story .. fortunately he won.

titaniumed
02-04-2013, 12:13 AM
I see.....looks similar.

This was the system I used back in 2000/2001 and had good results for pain....Chiropractic adjustments were done after walking on the pneuback system. We used a 75# upward pull so I was light on my feet.
http://www.pneumex.com/Pneu-Weight.html

Does your daughter have pain?

Ed

flerc
02-04-2013, 03:26 PM
Chiropractors are great! The first ‘invention’ I imagined was an inertial machine when I was thinking in a non surgical way to apply a force directly over the spine. I looked in the net for something similar and yes, they have constructed an inertial machine. Until last year, my sister was in pain, because a vertebra displacement toward the chest. Certainly I forgot that this kind of force could help her, but she used it in a natural way when she fell down over her back.
Yes, it seems to be similar to Voelio, but of course is not a motion simulator.. and not hold the feet, so the upward force should to be at least something lesser than the own weight. Anyway it seems to be many reasons about why it should to be something good, but the problem is.. how much time may someone use it? Of course is very different but this is the great advantage of braces.

Fortunately my daughter is not in pain, certainly she is doing what she ever used to do except dancing.. in my country there is a stupid fashion and it seems a military training for the war.. all styles except tango, but she don’t like it.
Even she seems to be 4 or 5 years younger, she is now 19 y.o. and she continues having a large thoracolumbar right curve, around 57° that seems to be stable, but I’m worry thinking in the lateral gravity force (because force decompotition) applied over the concave side all the time except while sleeping.. So I’m thinking now in strong abdominals. I'm sure they contributes in making the structure more resistant, but I cannot know how much.

flerc
02-05-2013, 08:39 AM
The way back braces work is not so much supporting from the back, its from holding the abdomen in which forces pressure up on the rib cage in an upward direction.


Great point! I’m thinking it suggest in some way that some prominent should to be every abdomen in someone with scoliosis. More compact the abdomen, more up the spine. Of course, probably would only be significant in big curves.



This of course is good for curves and maybe why I lasted so long without surgery. I was a surgical candidate in 1975.


Probably it was because your strong abs, not only because brace.

flerc
02-06-2013, 10:41 PM
Chiropractors are great! The first ‘invention’ I imagined was an inertial machine when I was thinking in a non surgical way to apply a force directly over the spine. I looked in the net for something similar and yes, they have constructed an inertial machine. Until last year, my sister was in pain, because a vertebra displacement toward the chest. Certainly I forgot that this kind of force could help her, but she used it in a natural way when she fell down over her back.
Yes, it seems to be similar to Voelio, but of course is not a motion simulator.. and not hold the feet, so the upward force should to be at least something lesser than the own weight.

It was good for me to remember all those ideas.. I'm thinking now again in down the stairs. More quick, more more need of balance, coordination, physical condition.. and more close to antigravity.

flerc
02-06-2013, 11:45 PM
The last I have read about arthritis is about a factor against it only present in butter from raw milk and breastmilk that seems to avoid the accumulation of calcium in joints.


In fact the last what I read is about leeches. Surely not so much pleasant but seems to work.

titaniumed
02-07-2013, 10:06 PM
Fortunately my daughter is not in pain So I’m thinking now in strong abdominals. I'm sure they contributes in making the structure more resistant, but I cannot know how much.

This is good.

I don’t think that the traction machinery devices we are talking about will help much in a thoracic curve .....after all, you have to grab the rib cage with a vest that contacts all the ribs. The benefits would mostly be seen down low, in the lumbar.

Thoracic curves are up high in the body,so it makes it hard to blame gravity....the muscles and soft tissues really have a strong influence in why rotation and curves happen......I don’t know if these thoracic area muscles get the exercise and stimulation they need while wearing a vest....???

Ed

flerc
02-08-2013, 01:59 PM
Yes, I think you are right.. certainly I thought in something only grabbing the axillae.. but should to be no much comfortable. I commented to my daughter’s physiatrist and she was close to refuse to continue attending her.. she is very strict..She also said me that if I wanted to do this, also the neck should to be grabbed.
Probably only in that way the dorsal vertebras may remains straight as the others as happens lying down, who knows.
I think that in this sense, the Spinecor should to be the best, but it not exists in my country. I imagined a way to do something not so good but similar but I’m not a health professional..

flerc
02-15-2013, 09:33 AM
I didn't realize that abdominal muscles was only above the belly button as may be seen here http://musculacionysalud.blogspot.com.ar/2008/05/abdominales.html
Certainly when I referred to a flacid or prominent abdomen, mostly I referred to the part below those muscles. I think that an actual muscular brace need solid muscles also or mainly in that zone.
Someone know the name of those muscles?

titaniumed
02-15-2013, 02:08 PM
These are the “abs” or “Six packs”. You can see these run the whole length of the abdomen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectus_abdominis_muscle

Ed

flerc
02-15-2013, 11:01 PM
Thanks Ed, certainly is something confused for me. I supposed that all the abdominal muscles were only those 6 packs, clearly over the belly button in that man. Below it, I dont see any 'pack' or something like a muscle, I see only something flat. But in the figure I see more 'packs' at least 8 and certainly 2 of them below the belly button. I suppose it also are part of the Rectus abdominis muscle and I hope they are not weaker than the 6 packs above.
Someone without scoliosis probably not need much firmness in this zone, but having an important frontal curve, I believe is a must.

titaniumed
02-16-2013, 01:08 PM
In browsing through some articles, I came across some things that many of us take for granted. The first is simply standing. This is the first thing they make us do after surgery, and although it seems like it isn’t an exercise task, it really is…..

Although seemingly static,the body rocks slightly back and forth from the ankle in the sagittal plane. The sway of quiet standing is often likened to the motion of an inverted pendulum.[1]

Erect posture requires adjustment and correction. There are many mechanisms in the body that are suggested to control this, e.g. a spring action in muscles, higher control from the nervous system or core muscles. Just standing exercises “core muscles”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The next is walking. The benefits once again, we take for granted. Scroll down for the health benefits…..Is this physical therapy? It sure is. It’s the “gold standard” and hard to beat.
Get outside and walk!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking

As an athlete all my life, I was always doing physical things that were fun. The only time I “targeted” any muscle group per say was when I would run up and down stairs for skiing training and I didn’t do this much since I would rather be skiing. (smiley face) You can see why it didn’t make all that much sense to me. Why would I use a treadmill when I could simply take a walk and see the sights? Why would I ride an indoor bike when I could go for a ride? I would rather be outdoors in the clean air doing things I enjoyed rather than making it a chore…….
================================================== ==
For those that want to target the abdomen, there are a list of exercises listed here. The bicycle crunch gets first place, but can be hard for scolis to do……The exercise ball comes in 3rd place and having one of these balls for exercising really is a must for scolis…..I use mine while watching TV. Just sitting and rolling around on it exercises the abs.
Please note…..
The benefit of focused training on the "deep core" muscles such as the transversus abdominis has been disputed, with some experts advocating a more comprehensive training regimen.[10]

And for those concerned with abdominal fat…..
The 2011 study found that abdominal exercise does not reduce abdominal fat; to achieve that, a deficit in energy expenditure and caloric intake must be created—abdominal exercises alone are not enough to reduce abdominal fat and the girth of the abdomen[1]. Early results from a 2006 study found that walking exercise (not abdominal exercise specifically) reduced the size of subcutaneous abdominal fat cells; cell size predicts type 2 diabetes according to a lead author.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdominal_exercise

Fun stuff
Ed

flerc
02-17-2013, 09:37 AM
Wise thoughts.. it not surprise me.


In browsing through some articles, I came across some things that many of us take for granted. The first is simply standing. This is the first thing they make us do after surgery, and although it seems like it isn’t an exercise task, it really is…..


Certainly surgeons has great before/after non surgical ideas not only useful for surgery. Edf was for me the best example, it was invented in order to achieve flexibility before surgery, but surely was the most effective brace solution of those times.. or probably Milwaukee, but it also was created for surgery treatment



Although seemingly static,the body rocks slightly back and forth from the ankle in the sagittal plane. The sway of quiet standing is often likened to the motion of an inverted pendulum.[1]
Erect posture requires adjustment and correction. There are many mechanisms in the body that are suggested to control this, e.g. a spring action in muscles, higher control from the nervous system or core muscles. Just standing exercises “core muscles”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing


Seems close to the Serge Gracovetsky’s “controlled instability” I hope he and others physicists begins to think in scoliosis.

‘The core muscles are deep muscle layers that lie close to the spine and provide structural support. The transverse abdominals wrap around the spine and function as a compression corset’


Some professionals talk about 'The Myth of Core Stability' saying that abs are not necessarily more important than other muscles.. some exercises as Pilates were questioned. Probablyly abs are not so much important having a normal spine, being young and having good health ans habits but at least when curves are not absolutely normal, surely are very important and (surely) specially if there are in the frontal plane. If I not remember bad, the scientis ABR inventor (Leonid Blyum ) said that not only skeletal muscles, tendons, ligaments and rib cage holds the spine. But also facias, smooth muscles, nerves, veins, skin and organs (pneumatic skeleton). It has sense for me. What may happen if all those components would be removed from the back? (nobody did that proof?) I doubt so much that the spine may holds so good the head, shoulders, scapulas and arms only counting with ligaments, skeletal muscles, tendons and the rib cage. If certainly it would not be possible as I think, the more compact/solid the pneumatic skeleton is, more stable would be the spine.
Maybe Blyum is right and only activating the smooth muscles the ps may have a significant volumen increment. Ok but I suppose not only size matters. Firmness is also important and we may see the trunk as a recipient containiig the ps, so the most resistants the wall of that recipient, the more resistant will be the ps inside.. and more stable should be the spine. The back wall of this recipient is never flacid or weak, so no problem with that wall, but the front wall may be prominent, flacid and weak so the ps could not be solid enough. And abs would be the wall surronding the front of the pneumatic skeleton (ps). So more firme the abs, more compact the ps would be and then, more stable the spine and all the trunk.

titaniumed
02-17-2013, 01:51 PM
In talking about bracing solutions, I stumbled across this blog that shows many of the different braces used in the years past. I was fortunate that I missed this......Very interesting designs from all over, including European designs.

People have put an immense amount of effort into something that seems to make sense, but at what cost?

Was or is this kind of mental and physical torture possibly worth a few degrees? To dodge a surgery for a few years during your best times, your teen years? Many would say no.

http://kuehnegger.blogspot.com/2012/05/frame.html

Scoliosis awareness has come a long way and for a good reason.....I am amazed at how many of us are afflicted with this disorder, and how many de-novo and senior spinal patients there are.

Ed

flerc
02-17-2013, 05:05 PM
I don't believe that nobody may use brace or even doing something not wanting to do it, only for reduce a few degrees.
During growth, many degrees may be reduced with brace or progresion may be stopped, because the internal and permanent (until growth is finish) force of growth may be realigned. Then we have not any more a 'good' force correcting the curve.. at least we walk head down by roofs.

Pooka1
02-17-2013, 06:04 PM
During growth, many degrees may be reduced with brace

If that is true then why don't the brace manufacturers claim it? They only claim bracing can (hopefully) stop progression. Even the brace manufacturers don't believe brace can permanently reduce curves even in growing kids.

flerc
02-17-2013, 07:32 PM
If that is true then why don't the brace manufacturers claim it? They only claim bracing can (hopefully) stop progression. Even the brace manufacturers don't believe brace can permanently reduce curves even in growing kids.

Are you sure? Why then they recommends to use it?

Pooka1
02-17-2013, 08:05 PM
Are you sure? Why then they recommends to use it?

I have never seen anyone with relevant training claim and prove a brace can reduce an AIS curve permanently which is what I thought we were talking about.

Bracing can reduce JIS curves at least until the adolescent growth spurt and hopefully through that.

If the brace makers don't claim it, then no surgeon should be claiming it.

Pooka1
02-17-2013, 08:07 PM
Are you sure? Why then they recommends to use it?

They recommend bracing to hopefully stop progression ONLY. That is why the bracing window stops at 40*.

rohrer01
02-17-2013, 09:48 PM
In talking about bracing solutions, I stumbled across this blog that shows many of the different braces used in the years past. I was fortunate that I missed this......Very interesting designs from all over, including European designs.

People have put an immense amount of effort into something that seems to make sense, but at what cost?

Was or is this kind of mental and physical torture possibly worth a few degrees? To dodge a surgery for a few years during your best times, your teen years? Many would say no.

http://kuehnegger.blogspot.com/2012/05/frame.html

Scoliosis awareness has come a long way and for a good reason.....I am amazed at how many of us are afflicted with this disorder, and how many de-novo and senior spinal patients there are.

Ed

All I can say to that blog is wow! It makes one wonder how a person could even get into one of those contraptions. It's so sad!

flerc
02-17-2013, 09:57 PM
They believe that can stop progression and reduce curve but not permanently. So if a curve of xº was reduced to (x-n)º , they are absolutely sure that at least will increase nº. Never only (n-1)º . Fantastic precision! I want to know the mathematical model showing that!

rohrer01
02-18-2013, 02:19 AM
They believe that can stop progression and reduce curve but not permanently. So if a curve of xº was reduced to (x-n)º , they are absolutely sure that at least will increase nº. Never only (n-1)º . Fantastic precision! I want to know the mathematical model showing that!

All you are saying is that the curve will return to the prebraced curve and not a degree less. I'm pretty sure that they can't predict what a scoliotic spine will do with a mathematic model.

Pooka1
02-18-2013, 06:25 AM
They believe that can stop progression and reduce curve but not permanently.

What exactly is the point of being able to reduce a curve non-permanently? Isn't that completely worthless or worse?

flerc
02-18-2013, 07:02 AM
All you are saying is that the curve will return to the prebraced curve and not a degree less. I'm pretty sure that they can't predict what a scoliotic spine will do with a mathematic model.

I'm not saying that. It seems that brace manufacters believe that. I suppose they have some basic idea about Geometry and Physics, so to be so sure about something a priori so absurd, they should to have a sofisticated way to prove it

flerc
02-18-2013, 07:05 AM
What exactly is the point of being able to reduce a curve non-permanently? Isn't that completely worthless or worse?
I don't know. I never said that.

Pooka1
02-18-2013, 07:12 AM
I'm not saying that. It seems that brace manufacters believe that. I suppose they have some basic idea about Geometry and Physics, so to be so sure about something a priori so absurd, they should to have a sofisticated way to prove it

All measurements are +/- 5* at best. It would be absurd for a brace manufacturer (or anyone) to make claims as if this precision didn't exist. And so they don't.

Remember, if it doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true. In everything.

flerc
02-18-2013, 09:47 AM
All measurements are +/- 5* at best. It would be absurd for a brace manufacturer (or anyone) to make claims as if this precision didn't exist. And so they don't.


In a 20°/40° curve, 5° is not insignificant and only a bad measurement may have such error.
But anyway it seems that probably they are at least not sure that at least 5° degrees may be reduced in a permanent way, although they may be not claiming that.



Remember, if it doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true. In everything.

Yes, it was I thought when I tried to imagine that a brace cannot reduce a curve in a permanent way although it can stop it for ever.

titaniumed
02-18-2013, 02:25 PM
All I can say to that blog is wow! It makes one wonder how a person could even get into one of those contraptions. It's so sad!

It is....I wore a Copes brace as an adult for skiing and it was quite a chore dealing with the pressure points. One time I was driving and the pain was so bad I had to pull over on the highway and rip it off as fast as possible. Braces really need to push HARD to work. The muscles and soft tissues are relentless in their pulling power.

When you wear them, you trade pains. The spine feels better at quite a price.

Its hard for me to get exited over bracing.....

I do feel strongly that scolis that are having full fusions wear them so they know what being totally fused is like.

I still have my brace....but my “beach ball” is now too huge to even think about getting it on. LOL

This girl has done a good job with her blog.

Ed

flerc
02-21-2013, 12:08 AM
The next is walking. The benefits once again, we take for granted. Scroll down for the health benefits…..Is this physical therapy? It sure is. It’s the “gold standard” and hard to beat.
Get outside and walk!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking


Sure great for someone with a normal spine. But with a big curve I'm not sure at all. I'm not sure if the cost I suppose may has because uneven oscilations may be >= the profit that sure has for everyone. Also hundreds of scoliosis treatments, for sit down/up and lying down postures gives recomendations/manipulations/exercises, but for walking.. Do you know one? I'm remembering only 2.




As an athlete all my life, I was always doing physical things that were fun. The only time I “targeted” any muscle group per say was when I would run up and down stairs for skiing training and I didn’t do this much since I would rather be skiing. (smiley face) You can see why it didn’t make all that much sense to me. Why would I use a treadmill when I could simply take a walk and see the sights? Why would I ride an indoor bike when I could go for a ride? I would rather be outdoors in the clean air doing things I enjoyed rather than making it a chore…….
================================================== ==


Not only for fun.. I insisted to my son to not do mechanical exercises to get muscles, because I'm sure is something artificial and unnatural.. at least he might get a great pleasure doing that. For me is as taking vitamin pills instead of eating food. We played paddle and I said him to note the difference of lost energy (physical and mental) between just only lifting the ball (we really hate that) and running the more fast we can and hitting the ball with all our force, something we enjoy so much and he agreed that lifting the ball was devastating although is uncomparably less hard.



For those that want to target the abdomen, there are a list of exercises listed here. The bicycle crunch gets first place, but can be hard for scolis to do……The exercise ball comes in 3rd place and having one of these balls for exercising really is a must for scolis…..I use mine while watching TV. Just sitting and rolling around on it exercises the abs.
Please note…..
The benefit of focused training on the "deep core" muscles such as the transversus abdominis has been disputed, with some experts advocating a more comprehensive training regimen.[10]


Some days before, I just have read about bicycle as the best back exercise. Even better than swimming!
My daughter wants since time ago a fixed bicycle. Today her Pt said her that she not agree so much because is so boring.
I don't know yet if she is afraid for jumps.. and certainly something boring for someone may be very fun for other, why not?
Wich is in 2nd place?