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jrnyc
01-07-2013, 10:01 PM
i had a phone consult with hormone specialist at Hall Center
in CA tonite...
she mentioned i should stop taking calcium, as she said it has
been found, in research, that inflammation is what is bad for the bones,
and anti inflammatory herbs, natural remedies like tumeric, can help
with it...she said calcium can cause deposits in arteries and doesn't really
do what was thought it did to help bones...
i may start researching this on internet...
but i am hesitant to give up calcium, especially when some on forum
have said taking lots of the stuff helped them have better bone density
scores...and i have osteopenia already...
doctor also said bio-identical hormone replacement, including estradiol.
helps bone density...
hasn't changed my bone scores as yet, though...

wondering if anyone else has heard of this...???????????

jess...& Sparky

LindaRacine
01-08-2013, 12:48 AM
Definitely wait for the science.

susancook
01-08-2013, 01:41 AM
I worked on 2 osteoporosis studies at Kaiser [FIT: Fracture Intervention Trial, an Alendronate intervention study and WHI: Women's Health Initiative.] WHI RESULTS: Note: these results would only apply to women over 60...not to many of you on the thread. In the Ca/VitD arm of the study, it was found that Ca/VitD offered a modest bone improvement and prevented hip fxs in certain women. There was no effect on spine or other fxs in women. WHI did not study the relationship of Ca/D on CVD in menopausal women. Thus, this has implications that "full suppliment dose" CaD supplimentation is an effective strategy for women over 60 to increase bone density.

Re: Bioidentical estrogen, especially estradiol, I am not sure that there is strong evidence that it decreases fractures, but certainly there is good evidence that Conjugated equine estrogen does increase bone density and decreases fractures. I am referring to the Estradiol that is FDA approved given at therapeutic dose, which is bioidentical BUT not the compounded estradiol or estradiol cream that is compounded [and therefore not under the constraints of purity and efficacy required required by FDA products]. From my understanding of the resaerch literature, the positive effect of CEE has been an assumed positive benefit for Estradiol, but never shown in research studies [that I am aware of] to decrease fractures. There is some research that low dose COCs [combined oral contraceptives] sl increases bone density. How that translates to fracture reduction [which is what is really the important question] is not known. Unfortunately, to study fracture reduction, you need to do longitudinal studies with huge numbers of women. I am a few years out of date on the literature since retirement, so let me know if there are new studies.

Sorry that I am not aware of research literature on CaD and CVD. Let me know what you find.

Susan

jrnyc
01-08-2013, 02:45 AM
preliminary search on internet shows research going back at least 12 years...
i will probably find more when i have more time to investigate...
so far, found mixed results...
definitely find it interesting and personally, for me, worth looking into...

jess

rohrer01
01-08-2013, 11:23 AM
The equine version of estrogen, Premarin, which gets its name from "pregnant mares urine" causes allergic reactions in some women. I know this because my mother is one of them. So use caution if you are starting this medication. There are other forms of getting estradiol.

I don't understand how an equine version could be better than a bio-identical version. Or maybe I'm misinformed.

Pooka1
01-08-2013, 11:47 AM
I don't understand how an equine version could be better than a bio-identical version. Or maybe I'm misinformed.

I don't understand why the PMU farms still exist. They are mainly (only?) in Canada but I recently read are moving overseas to eastern Europe as I recall. I suspect there is too much pushback from animal rights groups. I was surprised to learn recently that these farms still exist. The reason I learned that is a fellow boarder where I keep my horse brought in a PMU baby. Very cute horse! I have to admit I am a little surprised PETA hasn't done something about these facilities. The mares lead horrendous lives because they can't move around with the urine collection devices. They are kept pregnant and many babies must be destroyed I imagine. It's cruel and should be outlawed. I think that was coming down the pike in Canada which triggered the planned move to Europe as far as I can determine. Not really sure what is going on but I hope the operation is shut down ASAP.

rohrer01
01-08-2013, 12:07 PM
Sorry if this is getting off topic. I don't understand why they have to be cruel to the horses to collect their urine. Just use a pregnant mare and collect for a day and give her a break and go on to another horse. So sad. It's like the chicken farms where they're all stuffed into cages to lay eggs. When one dies, they pull it out and stuff another hen in there. My niece's husband worked at one for a day, couldn't stand the cruelty and quit.

Jess, I would like to know about the calcium. I, too, take Calcium and D3 suppliments. I had very low D3 and have successfully brought it up into normal range. I know you need the D3 to process the calcium.

Out of curiosity, have you had your thyroid levels checked? They can affect, if I remember correctly, your calcium levels.

Pooka1
01-08-2013, 12:20 PM
Just use a pregnant mare and collect for a day and give her a break and go on to another horse. So sad.

I think all the mares have all their urine collected all the time. Anything less is money out of big pharma's pocket because the mares are still eating.

I hadn't heard about these farms in years and just assumed they were shut down. I assumed PETA would have firebombed them by now or whatever they do to stop cruelty.

jrnyc
01-08-2013, 08:47 PM
hey rohr
bio identical hormones are nothing like the horse urine form...
not like premarin...
i would not take premarin or anything else made from horse urine...
nothing personal...(smiley)
i have been on thyroid meds for years...since my early 30's...
i have been on bio identical hormones for about 4-5 years, thru
a specialist in CA...i used to see her when i was out in CA visiting
family....my family in southern CA is gone now...i do phone consults
with the doctor....
the bio identical hormones have been life savers to me...

i have just started to research this calcium thing online...
i spent today going back and forth to Manhattan pain doc...

jess...& Sparky

susancook
01-08-2013, 08:56 PM
The equine version of estrogen, Premarin, which gets its name from "pregnant mares urine" causes allergic reactions in some women. I know this because my mother is one of them. So use caution if you are starting this medication. There are other forms of getting estradiol.

I don't understand how an equine version could be better than a bio-identical version. Or maybe I'm misinformed.

Premarin or conjugated equine estrogen is not better or worse, it just has been tested in multiple double blind placebo controlled trials. Estradiol may be equally good [or maybe better/mayeb worse], it just has not been tested with the scientific rigor that Premarin has. Just because lots of studies show that one formulation of estrogen [or any medicine] has risk and benefit, you can't say that a different formulation has the same risk/benefit. Also, women with a uterus need to take a progestin with the estrogen which may alter the benefit that one gets. We are off the scoliosis topic here.....so, I will stop talking about research and estrogen. Send me a PM if you need more info. Susan

jrnyc
01-09-2013, 10:24 AM
i do not dispense information that is medical advice...
i am explaining what my doctor is recommending for me...

rohr, i am taking bio identical hormones...3 different ones...
and bio identicals are considered better form of hormones by a whole
lot of medical specialists...
none of whom are on this forum.

if you read Suzanne Somers first book, it explains the hows and whys...
she does not claim to be a doctor....but she consults with doctors
and they write some of the chapters in her books...
she said she actually stayed on her bio identical hormones thru
when she had cancer....that surprised me...so i read some of her
other books...
i was referred to my hormone specialist by Ms Somers staff.

it is still on topic, rohr....because my doctor was trying to tell me alternative
ways to help bones without calcium...she believes estrogen tx, in the form
of bio identicals, helps the bones...plus she thinks anti inflammatory meds
are better for bones than calcium...and she suggests herbal forms of anti inflammatories...
as i mentioned, i am not going off calcium for now...

jess

rohrer01
01-09-2013, 01:53 PM
Premarin or conjugated equine estrogen is not better or worse, it just has been tested in multiple double blind placebo controlled trials. Estradiol may be equally good [or maybe better/mayeb worse], it just has not been tested with the scientific rigor that Premarin has. Just because lots of studies show that one formulation of estrogen [or any medicine] has risk and benefit, you can't say that a different formulation has the same risk/benefit. Also, women with a uterus need to take a progestin with the estrogen which may alter the benefit that one gets. We are off the scoliosis topic here.....so, I will stop talking about research and estrogen. Send me a PM if you need more info. Susan

I have studied the female hormone cycle so don't have any pressing questions about it. Although, I have not studied in depth all of the replacement therapies, choices of different supplimentations, risk factors and pros/cons etc. I know the risk of Premarin because my mother has an anaphylactic reaction if she takes it. The doctor told her she was crazy. So she called a helpline at Mayo in Rochester, MN, and they had heard of other cases like hers.

I don't think that talking about hormones is completely off topic here. As you know, the endocrine system is so very complex and intertwined that one thing leads to another to another and does affect all of our body systems. As far as drug formulations, Premarin may be the most studied, but there's a reason for coming up with other formulations of estrogens.

Since the female body is so different from the male body as to the cardiovascular system, it's important to know about the calcium thing and any relation it may have to other hormone balances. We are also more prone to osteoporosis, so there has to be some connection there with the sex hormones as well.

susancook
01-09-2013, 10:08 PM
[QUOTE=jrnyc;146112][COLOR="#0000CD"]
i do not dispense information that is medical advice...
i am explaining what my doctor is recommending for me...

rohr, i am taking bio identical hormones...3 different ones...
and bio identicals are considered better form of hormones by a whole
lot of medical specialists...
none of whom are on this forum.

if you read Suzanne Somers first book, it explains the hows and whys...

To Everyone reading this: I do not give medical advice on this forum as it is not the place to do that here. Medical advice is VERY specific to an individual and I do not know the histories of anybody on the forum, therefore will not give any individual or group advice. I do share the 23 years of experience that I have had as women's health hormonal researcher doing clinical longtiudinal trials, as a community lecturer, as an academic lecturer, and as a practitioner if that comes up. It is NOT advice that I present on the forum, just what I have learned and researched. Sometimes, it is just my opinion....so take it like you want. I believe in supporting research based medicine, especially the outcomes of double blind placebo controlled trials. I do believe that there is an evolving interest and recent research knowledge on alternative hormonal preparations and their use. I live in the NW US which has one of the highest uses of non-traditional practitioners in the country and a very high usage of compounded and bio-identical formulations.

I would be hesitant, if I were you, to make generalizations like, "bio-identicals are considered better form of hormones by a whole lot of medical specialists...none of whom are on this forum". How do you know this is true? If you are referring to me, and I believe that you are since your comments are under my response, please don't say that you know me or how I think. I don't believe that you do know me as I do not believe that you have ever attended my lectures or that I have ever seen you professionally as a patient and have talked to you about hormonal formulations [formulary and bio-identical] and my views. For your information, I do perscribe many bio-identical and compounded hormonal formulas on an individual basis. I have used them myself with good results. I also lecture at health food stores with a Naturopathic Physician on menopause and hormone replacement therapy/bio-identical hormones, etc. in the NW.

Also, there is an estrogen formula of Estradiol [bio-identical] that is FDA approved and not compounded.

I will refrain from commenting on the medical veracity of a book on women's health and homones by Susanne Somers.

Susan

PS: I went to Dr. Hu for a second opinion and her nurse gave me some resources on scoliosis, and told me not to read this forum as there is a lot of misinformation. I mostly read the blog for support and new ways of dealing with preop and postop problems that only the experienced have thought about and problem solved. In general, except for the abstracts of medical articles posted, I do not read this blog for medical information.

jrnyc
01-09-2013, 11:57 PM
no i was NOT referring to you on this forum...
i was referring to those with degrees to practice as doctors of medicine...
i do not see any doctors who specialize in hormone bio identicals on this forum...
if you have such far reaching knowledge of bio identical hormones.....
as a lecturer, a practioner, etc.....perhaps that should be in
your signature on forum...or perhaps you have a title that goes with it...

and i had no problem with the "veracity" of the information in Ms Somers books on hormones and menopause...
i do not disparage Ms Somer's licensed medical advisors she consults with,
just because they work with her...i do not disparage Ms Somer's knowledge
just because she works in show business...she has done a lot of her own
research in finding doctors who are investigating the field of menopause
and other uses for hormones....
my own experiences with bio identicals and the premarin type stuff before that has taught me a lot about what works and what doesn't work for ME.
i do not give out medical advice...
i was referring to the opinions of doctors who believe bio identicals are superior, are specialists who have written books, and have either done the research or reviewed the results...
.. ..there are many books containing that information sold at my specialists office in Venice, CA

i have never seen you....i have certainly never been your patient!!

why would i have been your patient.? for what reason would i go to you?
...i do not know what you are referring to...
or why you are taking this personally.
i am not you, so i do not need to "be hesitant"... "making generalizations" about what i write about bio identicals, since what i wrote was based on facts...and what i got from my doctors and the research they have been involved with.
i do not claim to be an expert on anything except my own experiences.
i do not claim to be a doctor.

and i know all about FDA approved forms of estradiol...i do not think as highly
of them, nor do my hormone specialists...

jess

jrnyc
01-10-2013, 12:51 AM
Linda...there have been studies...
the info is on internet...
as far as results...
here is just a little piece of info i found...

This is quite controversial, given that the worldwide calcium-supplement market is worth $3 billion a year," says Reid. "The trial was primarily looking at what calcium supplements do to bone density, but we had a secondary hypothesis right from the outset that calcium might actually prevent heart attack. What we found, to our surprise, was that we didn't see a decrease but an increase, and the findings appear to be quite robust." Reid added, however, that there have been some clu
es from three other recent studies, including one from Women's Health Initiative (WHI) in the US [2]: "these three did not find significant increases in the number of heart attacks [with calcium], but they have found upward trends."
Reid says that "there is a possibility that this was a chance finding, but what makes us believe that this is not the explanation is that there have been three other recent studies--one from the UK, one from the US, and one from Australia--that have found upward trends in the numbers of heart attacks with calcium, so we are showing the same sorts of trends."

"Taken together, these four studies raise major concerns about the cardiovascular safety of calcium supplementation, particularly with respect to MI in older postmenopausal women," say the researchers in their paper.

susancook
01-10-2013, 02:45 AM
no i was NOT referring to you on this forum...
i was referring to those with degrees to practice as doctors of medicine...
i do not see any doctors who specialize in hormone bio identicals on this forum...
if you have such far reaching knowledge of bio identical hormones.....
as a lecturer, a practioner, etc.....perhaps that should be in
your signature on forum...or perhaps you have a title that goes with it...

and i had no problem with the "veracity" of the information in Ms Somers books on hormones and menopause...
i do not disparage Ms Somer's licensed medical advisors she consults with,
just because they work with her...i do not disparage Ms Somer's knowledge
just because she works in show business...she has done a lot of her own
research in finding doctors who are investigating the field of menopause
and other uses for hormones....
my own experiences with bio identicals and the premarin type stuff before that has taught me a lot about what works and what doesn't work for ME.
i do not give out medical advice...
i was referring to the opinions of doctors who believe bio identicals are superior, are specialists who have written books, and have either done the research or reviewed the results...
.. ..there are many books containing that information sold at my specialists office in Venice, CA

i have never seen you....i have certainly never been your patient!!

why would i have been your patient.? for what reason would i go to you?
...i do not know what you are referring to...
or why you are taking this personally.
i am not you, so i do not need to "be hesitant"... "making generalizations" about what i write about bio identicals, since what i wrote was based on facts...and what i got from my doctors and the research they have been involved with.
i do not claim to be an expert on anything except my own experiences.
i do not claim to be a doctor.

and i know all about FDA approved forms of estradiol...i do not think as highly
of them, nor do my hormone specialists...

jess

I will not make further comments. My credentials as a professional are substantial but not relevant to my being on this forum and there is no need to list them....as I am on this forum as a woman with scoliosis who is worried about future surgery. Susan

jrnyc
01-10-2013, 04:56 AM
i started this thread to bring up topic of calcium and arteries and bone
density treatment...

by all the paragraphs of your views on hormones, or your information,
you do not sound like just a scoli patient...and some paragraphs come
across as lectures in my opinion.

i want to look into how much research there is and how good it is on
calcium and it's good and bad impact on female health...
there is enough controversy about forms of estrogen to take up
another thread....i was not trying to get into a debate as to which
form is better.

jess

Pooka1
01-10-2013, 06:57 AM
PS: I went to Dr. Hu for a second opinion and her nurse gave me some resources on scoliosis, and told me not to read this forum as there is a lot of misinformation.

This is the understatement of the century. I have been stating for YEARS that this is the case. Having a research section on a forum with 99.999999999% lay people is a recipe for disaster. There has been symphonic levels of nonsense posted about scoliosis, enough to choke 52,000 elephants. We had a person claiming up and down that scoliosis was explained by germ theory despite the fact it bears no resemblance to an infectious disease. It raises cluelessness to a zen art. I became so alarmed that I started posting articles on studies of why people rely on folk science because that's pretty much only what goes on in the research section.

jrnyc
01-10-2013, 05:12 PM
OK...but i am not presenting mis information...
i am trying to investigate how calcium has an impact on
arteries...and if anti inflammatory substances, especially "natural"
ones, as in herbal supplements, do something for bone density...

any information anyone comes across on studies of this would
be helpful.

i am NOT looking to contribute to any mis information.
and this thread is not about any person...it is meant to be
about calcium information and the risks vs. benefits of taking it.

jess

Pooka1
01-10-2013, 05:30 PM
No Jess I wasn't talking abut you! I have no idea about calcium or hormones.

I was talking about SCOLIOSIS and specifically ETIOLOGY and the antics in the Research Section. The other sections are largely testimonials which are by definition TRUE.

jrnyc
01-10-2013, 06:13 PM
the Harvard Health Newsletter mentions this...

The flap comes in the wake of a German study that found a significantly increased risk of heart attack among women taking calcium supplements, but not among those who got their calcium from food. The study appears in the June 2012 issue of the journal Heart.

it also says people should not stop taking calcium based on this study...
but i would guess this is something that will be further investigated...
i do want to look into anti-inflammatories and see what they have to
say about whether they help bone density.

jess