PDA

View Full Version : Scoliosis & Heavy Metal Allergy



AndreaM
03-12-2011, 06:03 AM
I have just been told by a Professor that my Scoliosis is almost certainly due to the large amount of dental amalgam fillings I had as a child!

I was recently contacted by a woman who worked as a dental nurse and regularly handled the amalgam paste used to fill teeth. She went on to have serious health problems and had a daughter who developed Scoliosis in her teens. This woman has been proven to have heavy metal allergy to mercury. Dental amalgam is 50% mercury and it is also in some medications and vaccines, including the MMR and 'Flu jabs!

When I reacted badly to the Flu jab i had in December (and am still trying to recover from), I took this subject more seriously and intend to have a particular test (Melisa Test) to determine which heavy metals I may be allergic to. Dental braces, and metal implants of any sort can all cause problems, including spinal rods or wires and can also cause other problems such as child autism or Multiple Sclerosis.

This link will give more information and there is a Scoliosis questionnaire you can complete on the website: http://www.mercurymadness.org/

Elisa
03-12-2011, 11:03 AM
Hmm, this is the first time I've heard amalgam fillings being associated with scoliosis. In my son's case who has severe scoliosis, he doesn't have any fillings of any kind... perfect and straight teeth. My husband and I both have amalgam fillings but none of our three kids have a single one of any sort.

Pooka1
03-12-2011, 11:31 AM
I have just been told by a Professor that my Scoliosis is almost certainly due to the large amount of dental amalgam fillings I had as a child!

What was s/he a professor of?

Did this professor offer any evidence for this position or did they just get a vibe?

jrnyc
03-12-2011, 12:27 PM
huh..???
so i have scoli, but my 2 sisters don't...
and we ALL have metal fillings...?
my friends don't have scoli, and they have metal fillings...?!
there should be A LOT more people with scoli if this theory were true!!

i think it is a bogus explanation!!!
professor of WHAT?

jess

LindaRacine
03-12-2011, 12:32 PM
I hate this sort of thing. You know that someone will go on to quote this as being the truth. ARRGH!

Pooka1
03-12-2011, 12:32 PM
professor of WHAT?

My money is it will be in an entirely irrelevant field. But we will see.

Pooka1
03-12-2011, 12:33 PM
ARRGH!


Speaking of something close to that... this is hilarious...

http://www.break.com/index/best-horse-name-ever-2019113

AndreaM
03-12-2011, 12:42 PM
I gather she is a professor of Immunology and previously worked as head of Immunotoxicology at a large pharmaceutical company and now works at a University.

I am just new to all this myself so really don't know what particular research has led to the belief that metal toxicity can lead to Scoliosis. I am in no position to comment as to the validity of what I have been told but I have other health problems too and my symptoms certainly fit with those listed for metal allergy.

The questionnaire I referred to above also asks about the health of the Scoliotic's mother and their possible exposure to metal toxins. My own mother was a nurse all her working life and the only link to metal I could think of was the mercury used in thermometers at the time she was in nursing. There is no doubt about the danger of mercury in the human body and I asked her if she had ever broken a thermometer. She said it had happened twice and been cleaned up with cotton wool. (To put this in perspective, if you break one of the newer low-energy light bulbs, you are supposed to open all the windows and vacate the room for at least ten minutes to let the vapour escape. Then you would wear gloves to lift the broken glass and dispose of it carefully. The amount of mercury in these light bulbs is miniscule in comparison to what would be in even the smallest thermometer).

I don't think I would have paid much attention to this subject if I hadn't taken such an immediate and long-lasting reaction to my recent flu jab. I was very ill for many years and have demyelination of my spinal cord and no bladder or bowel function. My symptoms are very similar to severe vitamin B12 deficiency and when I started on injections, my health improved considerably. However, to keep it that way I need 3 injections a week and daily folic acid. From the reading I have done in the last few days, I gather the metal allergy causes a drop in your glutathione level and one of the treatments for improving it is B12, folate and B6.

This whole idea is all very new to me but it is too important to ignore it. I obviously can't do anything about my Scoliosis but if I can find out for sure if I am allergic to the mercury and therefore can't detoxify it, I should be able to get treatment to rid my body of it and hopefully bring about a permanent improvement to my fragile health. I also met another woman last year who had both Scoliosis and MS, both of which are mentioned as damage which occurs from metal toxicity. The woman who first notified me of this did not say her daughter had amalgam fillings but that her own regular exposure to mercury would have affected her unborn child too and she is convinced that it was this which led to the girl's development of Scoliosis. The woman herself needs regular chelation to clear the mercury from her system.

I did ask why not everyone with amalgam filling became ill and was told that some people are not able to clear the heavy metal toxins from their body as well as others. I would think that, at the very least, all those who have Scoliosis, or the mother of a Scoliotic child, should consider what metals they may have been exposed to throughout their lives and, in particular, dental fillings, dental braces and bridges, or any other metal implant or exposure to liquid mercury or vapour.

I'm not making any claims for or against this idea but I will try to have the test suggested and will update this thread with what, if anything, it reveals.

Andrea

rohrer01
03-12-2011, 12:50 PM
My mom used to shine her nickels with mercury using her bare hands. I'm the youngest of 5 and am the only one with scoliosis. I have a silver sensitivity and have had all but one of my amalgam fillings removed for this reason. The one that remains gives me a tooth ache, but that's about all.

Pooka1
03-12-2011, 12:52 PM
My mom used to shine her nickels with mercury using her bare hands. I'm the youngest of 5 and am the only one with scoliosis. I have a silver sensitivity and have had all but one of my amalgam fillings removed for this reason. The one that remains gives me a tooth ache, but that's about all.

Yes, yes but do you feel you adequately entertained the notion that space aliens might have caused your scoliosis? I am thinking not.

AndreaM
03-12-2011, 02:10 PM
You may ridicule but can they really all be wrong?

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/4869.html

http://www.toxicmetals.info/case_laurie.htm

http://www.scoliosiscorrectioncenter.com/Outcomes%20of%20Scoliosis%20Surgery.htm

http://www.evenbetterhealth.com/heavy-metal-alternative-testing.php

And even in fish:

http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search/display.do?f=1994/ID/ID94002.xml;ID9400840

rohrer01
03-12-2011, 02:34 PM
I think all sort of ills come from toxins in our environment. However, to prove that all scoliosis is caused by mercury would be difficult. Of the many cases pointed out on here, maybe none have the heavy metal allergy, who's to say? I think it is definitely worth investigating whether heavy metal poisoning causes "some" scoliosis. I do think that the professor did overstep her bounds to say that your scoliosis was definitely caused by the heavy metal allergy. She would have to run all sorts of clinical tests on you to even begin to prove that. Even then she would have to run a large controlled study to prove her hypothesis. I'm not saying she's absolutely wrong, I'm just saying she needs more proof, at least in your particular case. I absolutely hope you find out if you do have allergies and can purge your body of the toxins that are making you sick. I'm not ridiculing you, but professor may have scared you without meaning to.

jrnyc
03-12-2011, 02:48 PM
i bet she can prove metal exposure causes cancer too...

what is this professor's knowledge of scoli?

how many orthopedic doctors or surgeons has she talked to...

how many people is she scaring with these unproven assumptions..?

that website states in the disclaimer that the information provided does not constitute medical information!!

jess

Elisa
03-12-2011, 02:49 PM
It was an interesting read on that Laurie lady and I'll have to do more research on dystonia b/c I am not familiar with that at all.

http://www.scoliosiscorrectioncenter.com/Outcomes%20of%20Scoliosis%20Surgery.htm

^^ This is the first site I think I read when I was first researching my son's scoliosis and it freaked me out so much I emailed it to my husband and then he freaked out. Later I find out the guy on the site isn't even a doctor and I did not appreciate his 'scare tactics' one little bit. >_<

Edit, this comment at the bottom of that page is false:

"There is NO MEDICAL REASONS for the Surgery. It is a PURELY COSMETIC PROCEDURE"

Really? What about my kid who has a 110* curve (probably more now) and his rib cage is so twisted that it's about to compromise his organs, if it isn't already. Quack comes to mind about this guy.

rohrer01
03-12-2011, 02:53 PM
That was one of the first sites I saw, too. It upset me to think how much money he charges for people to go there with no guarantee. If you look at his references some of them are from like 60 years ago, if I remember correctly.

jrnyc
03-12-2011, 02:57 PM
i had a friend who had all his fillings removed...made no difference to his health...

my spine started curving before i ever had a filling in my mouth!
maybe i should blame the braces i had in my teens...
funny, my nephew had braces a lot longer than i did..no scoli!
i've heard all kinds of things blamed on mercury poisoning...but never seen it proven!

jess

livingtwisted
03-12-2011, 02:59 PM
If this is true, we would see a decrease in incidence of scoliosis as alternatives to amalgam have become more popular. I bet there are young mothers with no metal fillings who have children with scoliosis who also have no metal fillings.

My mother has a mouth full of metal. My dad did too but has recently had it all replaced. All my fillings and my sister's are composite. And yet I am the only one in my family with scoliosis.

AndreaM
03-12-2011, 03:03 PM
I don't think it is being claimed that al cases of Scoliosis are due to heavy metal allergy but if some are and the toxicity is treated in time, is that not still worth something?

Neither have I been 'scared' into anything - I'm too long in the tooth for that! However, I have been very poorly for many years and want to feel as well as is possible for whatever time remains. I also have a daughter in her mid-teens and I want to know I have done my best for her if she is unfortunate enough to develop Scoliosis too.

I agree with you that the professor cannot state emphatically that my Scoliosis is due to metal allergy but I am of the opinion that there is enough evidence to make it worthwhile being tested. Believe me, no-one talks me into any procedure and I take all my own risks and decisions based on whatever knowledge and information is available to me at the time. There are a lot of people out there making exaggerated claims about 'cures' or 'tests' and I am not so naive as to be taken in by them all. However, now and again something comes to your notice which deserves further investigation and I feel this is one such case. It may come to nothing but I intend to satisfy myself that I have not missed out on a considerable improvement to my quality of life by throwing the baby out with the bath water.

rohrer01
03-12-2011, 04:34 PM
Agreed, it is worth investigating.

Pooka1
03-12-2011, 04:43 PM
You may ridicule but can they really all be wrong?

Yes of course they can all be wrong. In fact that is the most likely scenario.

Elisa
03-12-2011, 04:59 PM
That whack job chiro from that site you used as a reference is definitely wrong, not to mention dangerous and no doubt a money grabber as well but that I'm just guessing at. By all means I think you should continue to investigate the possibility of allergies to heavy metal but that particular site is a total turn off for me personally.

Pooka1
03-12-2011, 05:06 PM
If I might...

When dealing with medicine and when interested in the highest quality information possible, look for .gov and .org sites. Don't waste time with .com sites.

Now among the .gov and .org sites, there is still going to be counterfactual material. The thing is there is likely less of it on those sites compared to .com sites.

Last, check Quackwatch for listings of known nonsense.

Still Hoping
03-12-2011, 05:29 PM
Wow, I am really shocked at the negative and hurtful comments that have been posted in reply to your first comments! A fair amount of people on here seem to poo-poo any idea that is not set in granite instead of from the ancient, official ones, many-of-which frankly are also unresearched, or researched very suspectly or inconclusively or provide inconsistent results. It seems like that is their only purpose, to cut down any alternatives or new ideas. Well, it is only new ideas and hypotheses that give birth to the new theories and "facts" that they are so eager to defend. It is called research.

And this is not-to-mention that it is hurtful to the person sharing their ideas with other victims. You're right, it is ridicule. Is their point to ridicule you? If their point is to expose fraud, then they should send their comments to either the alternative practitioners themselves, or to a federal medical fraud agency.

Every medical drug and non-medical treatment ALL make the disclaimer that the information provided does not constitute or replace medical advice. They all say that only a medical doctor can give you medical advice. Does that automatically invalidate their legitimacy? Then do these commenters not believe in medical drugs?

What about all the medicines that are originally approved by the FDA as being safe, and then later are recalled because of the dangers to health they cause?

Just because everyone with fillings doesn't get scoliosis does NOT PROVE that no one will because of them, or that the idea it is "bogus"!! Just because everyone who wears (dental) braces doesn't get scoliosis does NOT prove that, therefore, no one will. It does not logically follow.

What about all the hundreds (or thousands) of patients who wear a scoliosis brace diligently and uncomfortably (if not worse) for years only to find out that they have to have surgery anyway? This forum is loaded with them. Does that mean that because the braces didn't work for every single patient the use of a brace is a sham or a hoax? Then doesn't that make the medical doctors "quacks"? Making false promises? Getting parents' hopes up unrealistically, only to be crushed later? And the doctors can't predict which cases the brace will help, (if any), and which it won't.

Doctors say that heredity plays a role. How come everyone with scoliosis in their family histories doesn't get scoliosis? Can they predict which child will get it and which ones won't? No they cannot. Why not? Does that mean that their entire theory of genetics being a causative factor is false?

What about the different answers you get from orthopedic scoliosis specialists and surgeons, experts in their fields? We have gotten very different answers depending on which one we go to.

When you look at the success rates of bracing and surgery, or the predictive values of Risser scores, growth plates, or onset of menses, you find that a lot of it is pure guesswork, a crapshoot. None of those offer definitive answers or accurate success rates.

I could go on and on. As I read these posts I am always finding yet more and more examples of conventional medical treatments and advice not working, and yet they are not held up to the same level of scrutiny and perfection that some demand from alternative therapies. That is not rational.


My whole point is I think that those people who poo-poo other therapies should HOLD THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY TO THE SAME STANDARDS that they criticize alternative treatments for! I can't emphasize that enough! That is my whole point.

Whew!

Elisa
03-12-2011, 05:42 PM
I don't think I ridiculed the original poster and I told her I found one of her links an interesting read as well as said that she should go ahead and research more regarding the heavy metal allergy thing. It was one of the other sites she used as a reference that I found to be very misleading and personally didn't appreciate the scare tactics used in it. Horrible site imo.

Pooka1
03-12-2011, 05:51 PM
What about the different answers you get from orthopedic scoliosis specialists and surgeons, experts in their fields? We have gotten very different answers depending on which one we go to.

If "orthopedic scoliosis specialists" = chiros then the question answers itself.

Only orthopedic surgeons have the necessary training to treat scoliosis. Chiros should not be treating kids FULL STOP.

rohrer01
03-12-2011, 06:08 PM
I'm not putting Andrea down, either. I'm not upset with her professor's idea of heavy metal poisoning/allergy. What I do find fault with is the professor telling her that the metal is the cause of her scoliosis. It sounded as if it were without basis. And, Andrea, I have read enough of your posts to know that you aren't a stupid or niave person, so please don't take it personal. You seriously have suffered enough! This forum is to share ideas and that is what you were doing. I think the attack came from how this professor came to her conclusion based on nothing more than her knowledge about metals/immunology, etc. It's not insane to believe that heavy metal poisoning or allergy can cause horrible effects in people. That's why they test babies for lead poisoning. It IS irresponsible to come to a conclusion about someone's illness without knowing all the facts, i.e. running appropriate tests to determine metal toxicity/allergy, then being able to link that to the scoliosis based on onset of scoliosis vs. onset of poisoning. I think maybe the way some things come across are the target of attacks on the forum and not the person (hopefully). Hey, we all post things that get criticized, including me. That's the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. I apologize if I came across rude. I didn't intend to.

Still Hoping
03-12-2011, 06:13 PM
If "orthopedic scoliosis specialists" = chiros then the question answers itself.

Only orthopedic surgeons have the necessary training to treat scoliosis. Chiros should not be treating kids FULL STOP.


I mean very highly recommended and credentialed orthopedic surgeons, not chiros or anything else.

Still Hoping
03-12-2011, 06:25 PM
Medical doctors, too, sometimes charge even more exorbitantly with no guarantees.

Pooka1
03-12-2011, 06:26 PM
Medical doctors, too, sometimes charge even more exorbitantly with no guarantees.

Yes but they are the only game in town.

Pooka1
03-12-2011, 06:30 PM
I mean very highly recommended and credentialed orthopedic surgeons, not chiros or anything else.

Yes the jury is out on some things including bracing. So you have surgeons all over the map about whether they THINK it works. Nothing wrong with that and in fact it is to be expected when the evidence case is not made. But you won't find a surgeon claiming to have evidence it work. Very key difference that is no fault of the surgeons.

There is this constant undercurrent of folks wanting to get blood from a stone and blaming the stone when it isn't forthcoming. None of that changes that surgeons are the only game in town who are evidence based.

Still Hoping
03-12-2011, 06:41 PM
I meant we've gotten different measurements and conclusions from different doctors. For example, one doctor (orthopedic) looked at her growth plates and actually said she was almost done growing. Another doctor a week later said that she still had years to grow, looking at the same xrays! Which do you believe?

Only game in town? There are many alternative games in town that are evidence-based, no? But I suppose we are getting a bit off track of message (metal allergies)...

livingtwisted
03-12-2011, 10:52 PM
still hoping, Thank you for reminding us why we're all here.

Andrea, I'm sorry for responding with a negatives only post. I think it's an interesting topic and worth learning more about and I should have said that in my post. I would be very interested to hear the results if you choose to pursue this.

But where I get stuck theoretically is that I would think over time we have learned what metals are harmful to us and have made changes to limit our exposure to them. If a metal allergy is one of the triggers for scoliosis (or maybe just a factor in progression) then why wouldn't the incidence decrease as we make our world safer overall? Or maybe there would have been peaks in incidence during the industrial revolution or something. But as far as I know the statistics have stayed fairly consistent.

jrnyc
03-12-2011, 11:31 PM
anecdotals do not constitute proof of anything, except what happened to that one patient...
i do not see rigorous research with conclusive proof that metal toxicity somehow directly causes scoliosis....none!
where is the proof...?

vague vibes and feelings and individual experiences do not constitute proof of anything...
"mercury madness" seems like an apt title for what was on that website...

i am not trying to attack anyone...
i am trying to point out that i expect legitimate research...in all kinds of medicine...traditional AND alternative...before i start seriously considering that there is proof of such claims!

sorry if that offends anyone...but i think more harm than good has been done over the years with ideas that scare people and turn out to be based on no facts...no proof...no solid research...

jess

Pooka1
03-13-2011, 10:36 AM
anecdotals do not constitute proof of anything, except what happened to that one patient...
i do not see rigorous research with conclusive proof that metal toxicity somehow directly causes scoliosis....none!
where is the proof...?

vague vibes and feelings and individual experiences do not constitute proof of anything...
"mercury madness" seems like an apt title for what was on that website...

i am not trying to attack anyone...
i am trying to point out that i expect legitimate research...in all kinds of medicine...traditional AND alternative...before i start seriously considering that there is proof of such claims!

sorry if that offends anyone...but i think more harm than good has been done over the years with ideas that scare people and turn out to be based on no facts...no proof...no solid research...

jess

Agreed.

And don't you just love the spectacularity of RFK Jr., a lawyer, making claims in opposition to the VAST consensus of the medical community? Even after all that went down in recent months w.r.t. Hg and autism, he is STILL at it!

When you listen to his "reasoning," it seems obvious why he went into law and not science.

LindaRacine
03-13-2011, 11:34 AM
I meant we've gotten different measurements and conclusions from different doctors. For example, one doctor (orthopedic) looked at her growth plates and actually said she was almost done growing. Another doctor a week later said that she still had years to grow, looking at the same xrays! Which do you believe?

Only game in town? There are many alternative games in town that are evidence-based, no? But I suppose we are getting a bit off track of message (metal allergies)...
I suspect this is an issue of one doctor having no clue about what he's seeing.

Pooka1
03-13-2011, 11:52 AM
I suspect this is an issue of one doctor having no clue about what he's seeing.

"Suspect" might be too wishy-washy. I suggest we can go further.

There is one right answer to those who know which measures are most accurate and what to look for as I understand this growth plate game.

If the opinions are all over the board then you aren't dealing with folks who know this game FULL STOP.

AndreaM
03-13-2011, 11:57 AM
Hi Still Hoping,

Thank you for your kind comments and support. I too was rather taken aback with the reaction to my comments, not because others were sceptical (which is healthy!) but the whole idea was rubbished without any knowledge of the reasoning behind it. Whether we believe individual people's explanation or interpretation of metal allergy and what it could potentially do, it doesn't mean that there is no truth in it. There may not be, but it is beyond doubt that mercury and lead in particular are extremely harmful to the body. Just because it can't actually be proven to be leading to some cases of Scoliosis doesn't mean that it isn't and I would rather keep an open mind in the hope that more research can be done which confirms the connection if there is one. I was particularly interested in the fact that the seas are awash with mercury and fish have high levels of it. Is it a coincidence that dolphin and whale meat sold in Japan have high levels of mercury and both dolphins and whales are now being discovered with Scoliosis? I don't know if that is the reason but it doesn't sound implausible to me.

I am also amazed that others place so much confidence in the medical profession. I used to think that they would know whatever could be known about any condition but found out the hard way that this just isn't true. I am appalled at the ignorance and flawed understanding of Pernicious Anaemia in particular and the negligence and mis-management of this condition, which has been known about for a long time, is quite shocking. So are the standard tests which are used to diagnosis it - they are deeply flawed and yet no-one seems to want to do anything about it. Even when they are presented with proper scientific reasoning for why the tests are unreliable, it is simply ignored. I speak to people every day with horror stories of how their doctors have treated them, making them much worse and having them on medications which are dangerous and totally unnecessary. It is deeply satisfying to be able to point them in the right direction and see at least some of them recover once they take control of their own treatment, much to the kind of response from their doctors which I have seen here.

What is the point of making a dental nurse wear protective gloves and mask to handle mercury and then have it sealed into your teeth? Something is very wrong here. If it is considered dangerous for the nurse to have on her hands, why would it be safe in your mouth for the rest of time?

All I know is that I have had considerable exposure to different heavy metals throughout my life, including childhood vaccines, 16 dental amalgams, a dental brace, a Harrington rod and a titanium plate in my foot. I have many of the symptoms contributed to poisoning and took a nose-dive several days after a vaccination which included mercury. I was also on another medication at the time which would have compounded the effect of the mercury.

Pharmaceutical companies do not want to do research on any condition which is treated by a natural substance or by the withdrawal of toxins because they can't make any money from it. Acid-suppressant medicines, for example, prevent you being able to absorb nutrients from your food. They cause the very symptoms they are supposed to treat and cause eventual gastric atrophy. I know, as I was on them for a total of 22 years until I made the connection myself and came of them. I improved somewhat but the damage to my stomach was done and I can't absorb any nutrients properly as a result. I know many other people in the same position.

If you are waiting for medical science to come up with all the answers then you are on a hiding to nothing. It hasn't come up with the reason(s) for Scoliosis either yet we are content to trust them with our care and treatment. There is a 14 year old boy in Scotland who decided to try to help his mother who has MS and eventually came up with the observation that Vitamin D helped her. He is now being taken seriously by other 'experts'. Vitamin D helps your body produce glutathione which gets destroyed by metal toxicity so is this the reason why it is leading to MS? There will be many in the medical profession who will scoff at a young boy's findings but all he knows is that his mother improves when she is given vitamin D. He may not be able to prove it but he knows it is happening.

Whatever people here may make of what I have posted, I will have this test done. The worst that can happen is that I lose money but I would still gain knowledge that this was not the source of my problems and could continue to search for an answer. On the other hand, if it is the source of my problems I can have the chance of an improved quality of life. Sometimes we have to take chances and sometimes these chances pay unexpected dividends.

Pooka1
03-13-2011, 12:39 PM
http://www.quackwatch.com/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=mercury&case=&whole=&lines=&errors=&age=&maxfiles=25&maxlines=20&maxchars=3000&filter=&cache=yes&rankby=DEFAULT


Mercury is found in the earth's crust and is ubiquitous in the environment. Thus, even without amalgam fillings, everyone has small but measurable blood and urine levels. Amalgam fillings raise these levels slightly, but this has no clinical significance.

The legal limit of safe mercury exposure for industrial workers is 50 micrograms per cubic meter of air for 8 hours per day and 50 weeks per year. Exposure at this level will produce urine mercury levels of about 135 micrograms per liter. These levels are much higher than those in the general public but produce no symptoms and are considered safe.

Also, chelation therapy is discussed on Quackwatch... emphasis added

http://www.quackwatch.com/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=chelation&case=&whole=&lines=&errors=&age=&maxfiles=25&maxlines=20&maxchars=3000&filter=&cache=yes&rankby=DEFAULT


Chelation Therapy: Unproven Claims and Unsound Theories

Chelation Therapy:

Chelation therapy, as discussed in this article, is a series of intravenous infusions containing disodium EDTA and various other substances. It is sometimes done by swallowing EDTA or other agents in pill form. Proponents claim that EDTA chelation therapy is effective against atherosclerosis and many other serious health problems. Its use is widespread because patients have been led to believe that it is a valid alternative to established medical interventions such as coronary bypass surgery. However, there is no scientific evidence that this is so. It is also used to treat nonexistent "lead poisoning," "mercury poisoning," and other alleged toxic states that practitioners diagnose with tests on blood, urine, and/or hair.

AndreaM
03-13-2011, 02:10 PM
Thimerosal is the mercury additive in vaccines:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Thimerosal%20interacts%20with%20the%20 Ca2%20%20release%20channel%20ryanodine%20receptor% 20from%20skeletal%20muscle%20sarcoplasmic%20reticu lum)

Thimerosal interacts with the Ca2+ release channel ryanodine receptor from skeletal muscle sarcoplasmic reticulum.

The thiol-oxidizing reagent, thimerosal, has been shown to increase the intracellular Ca2+ concentration, to induce Ca2+ spikes in several cell types, and to increase the sensitivity of intracellular Ca2+ stores to inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate. Ryanodine-sensitive stores have also been implicated in the generation of Ca2+ oscillations induced by the addition of thimerosal. Here we report that micromolar concentrations of thimerosal stimulate Ca2+ release from skeletal muscle sarcoplasmic reticulum vesicles, inhibit high affinity [3H]ryanodine binding, and modify the channel activity of the reconstituted Ca2+ release protein. Thimerosal inhibits ryanodine binding by decreasing the binding capacity (Bmax) but does not affect the binding affinity or the dissociation rate of bound ryanodine. Single channel reconstitution experiments show that thimerosal (100-200 microM) stimulates single channel activity without modifying channel conductance. The thimerosal-stimulated channel is not inhibited by heparin. Furthermore, a Ca(2+)-stimulated channel is first activated and then inhibited in a time-dependent fashion by high concentrations of thimerosal (1 mM). Once inactivated, the channel cannot be reactivated by addition of either Ca2+ or ATP.

Pooka1
03-13-2011, 02:43 PM
Thimerosal is the mercury additive in vaccines:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Thimerosal%20interacts%20with%20the%20 Ca2%20%20release%20channel%20ryanodine%20receptor% 20from%20skeletal%20muscle%20sarcoplasmic%20reticu lum)

Thimerosal interacts with the Ca2+ release channel ryanodine receptor from skeletal muscle sarcoplasmic reticulum.

The thiol-oxidizing reagent, thimerosal, has been shown to increase the intracellular Ca2+ concentration, to induce Ca2+ spikes in several cell types, and to increase the sensitivity of intracellular Ca2+ stores to inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate. Ryanodine-sensitive stores have also been implicated in the generation of Ca2+ oscillations induced by the addition of thimerosal. Here we report that micromolar concentrations of thimerosal stimulate Ca2+ release from skeletal muscle sarcoplasmic reticulum vesicles, inhibit high affinity [3H]ryanodine binding, and modify the channel activity of the reconstituted Ca2+ release protein. Thimerosal inhibits ryanodine binding by decreasing the binding capacity (Bmax) but does not affect the binding affinity or the dissociation rate of bound ryanodine. Single channel reconstitution experiments show that thimerosal (100-200 microM) stimulates single channel activity without modifying channel conductance. The thimerosal-stimulated channel is not inhibited by heparin. Furthermore, a Ca(2+)-stimulated channel is first activated and then inhibited in a time-dependent fashion by high concentrations of thimerosal (1 mM). Once inactivated, the channel cannot be reactivated by addition of either Ca2+ or ATP.

What is your point? This appears to be an in vitro study at seemingly whacking high [EtHG] (0.1, 0.2 and 1 millimolar!!) that they do not even try to relate to in vivo levels in the abstract at least.

In other words, it is possible for everything they found to be true and it STILL be irrelevant to humans.

Can I ask you a question? Do you have a legitimate diagnosis? Medical doctors not being able to find a diagnosis often drives rational folks to the occult alternative. I see that as a reason but it not really an excuse.

Anyone can claim anything, including things that sound plausible. I do not think the known epidemiology allows for Hg to be a trigger of scoliosis but let's assume it is at least plausible. The burden is on the folks claiming that to prove it. Sometimes something can be disproven from first principles (like homeopathy) but most of the time there is simply no proof or disproof. The likelihood of something doesn't go up simply in the absence of disproof. It may just mean the idea if too wacky for legitimate researchers to test.

Good luck.

livingtwisted
03-13-2011, 02:44 PM
Whatever people here may make of what I have posted, I will have this test done. The worst that can happen is that I lose money but I would still gain knowledge that this was not the source of my problems and could continue to search for an answer. On the other hand, if it is the source of my problems I can have the chance of an improved quality of life. Sometimes we have to take chances and sometimes these chances pay unexpected dividends.

Good for you! I hope you find the answers you are looking for and some relief. From what you are describing maybe you do have an allergy that is making your condition worse. I think the reason people here get so defensive of any new ideas is that they immediately jump to the conclusion that you think you've found a cure for the curve in your back. But I say anything that might help relieve symptoms is worth doing. You have the right to decide for yourself whether your time and money is worth spending on something unproven and no one else has the right to judge you for it.

Karen Ocker
03-13-2011, 03:50 PM
[QUOTE=AndreaM;118320]I have just been told by a Professor that my Scoliosis is almost certainly due to the large amount of dental amalgam fillings I had as a child!

Almost certainly????

I have heard this before but if you search scientific/ medical sites no studies have been done to show this was true or even suggest a correlation. The problem is that anyone can put anything at all on a web site and it can cause a lot of fear and bad choices.

I just had a recent experience about a situation in my home. I was looking for a certain type of contractor. They had a great website with pages of information which was true but when my husband and I wanted to check credentials?----we found the guy was convicted felon!!!

Regarding fillings and scoliosis in my case: my 2 siblings and myself were never taken to the dentist until a cavity was so large there was a toothache. This was after any one of us developed scoliosis. My mom also never went to the dentist until her teeth fell out. She had scoliosis too.

livingtwisted
03-13-2011, 04:17 PM
It just occurred to me that I think under a different thread there was discussion of bad reactions to vaccines and I wonder if the reason for the reactions was mercury. If I remember correctly it seemed like many scolis had had a reaction at some point (I did as an infant). Obviously this doesn't prove anything, just thought I'd mention it. But back to my original point, I think they've stopped using mercury in the most common childhood vaccines so you would think you would see a change based on that.

AndreaM
03-13-2011, 04:23 PM
Thank you Mehera,

I have no way of knowing what this test will reveal, if anything at all. However, neither will I ever know if I don't give it a chance. Scoliosis is only one of my problems. I was on acid-suppressants to protect my stomach from NSAIDs needed for ongoing pain following my fusion. Fifteen years later, I started having shooting pains in my leg and had a TIA shortly after. I was then put on BP meds and from then on never felt well. I was dizzy, had increasing nerve pain, extreme fatigue and stomach issues. Then I began to lose the feeling in that leg and the muscles withered. Next was a gradual and total loss of bowel and bladder function which is permanent. Added to it all was general allergies, muscle cramps and spasms and insomnia. I felt at the point of death when, by chance, I saw a list of the symptoms of Pernicious Anaemia. Since it was exactly describing me, I read up on it and approached my doctor. Despite all the tests being in the low normal ranges, he allowed me to try the injections and the effect was instant and spectacular. After months of terrible pain, especially during the night, it disappeared the night of that first injection. Over the next few days, my energy level began to improve and I stopped falling and banging into furniture and doorways. My BP returned to normal within the week. However, I needed a very high amount of B12 and folic acid to keep stable and fortunately my doctor is one of the few who allowed me to have them. He knows how ill I was and what difference it made to me. I suspect I will always have the results of the nerve damage which is reckoned to be irreversible due to the length of time it has been there but I have some sort of a life back. Then, in December, I had the 'flu jab and within days began to get quite a few symptoms, including general sickness and stomach upset. I have very gradually improved to some extent but my BP is very erratic, even on medication. I do not have any official diagnosis, other than demyelination of my spinal cord, and the evidence of bladder and bowel shutdown and nerve damage to my leg.

The fact that I am on B12 and folic acid is consistent with the theory of it helping my glutathione level (which gets destroyed by mercury) and I am wondering if that is why it has been so effective in improving my health. I know I can't do anything about the Scoliosis but if I can even recover sufficiently to be able to stop having to inject into muscle 3 times a week, it will be worth it.

Even if was eventually proved that heavy metal allergy was leading to cases of Scoliosis, quite what you would do about it is another matter. Obviously, you can't test the entire population and even if you did you are not going to know which people might go on to develop it and what other factors may have to come into play. So that leaves you only able to respond once the first signs of Scoliosis begin to appear. It would be very interesting to know what the figures would be if everyone in this position was tested for metal allergy as soon as Scoliosis was detected. Would those here who are so dismissive of the whole idea refuse to have their child tested? Imagine perhaps later finding out that you could have halted or reversed the Scoliosis. There are many Scoliotics now in their 40s or 50s who have gone on to have the kind of problems I have. Why should they develop these symptoms if all that was wrong was a physical deformity of their spine? There are of course all the others who don't have Scoliosis but have MS and some unfortunates have both.

I don't intend to post again here as I have limited time and would rather use it to help others who are still open to other possible explanations for their health problems. I'm just sorry that others can't at least keep an open mind and see how someone else fares on a new sort of treatment even if they don't feel confident of its relevance.

PS - I gather that Thimerosal has been withdrawn from some vaccines but mercury in dental amalgams is still being used, except in Denmark where it was apparently banned because of the controversy.

jrnyc
03-13-2011, 04:36 PM
well, post or not post...perhaps you feel threatened by those who question the cause you seek to prove...i think you have started with the cause you seek to be there at the end of your search...and do not want to consider that there is no research for your beliefs....

i do NOT look to medicine to have all the answers...they couldn't diagnose my Lyme disease til i was in a wheelchair...i lost faith in doctors long ago...
that does not mean i believe every quack web site that challenges traditional medicine...

i am sure mercury is not good for the human body!
that does NOT mean it causes scoli, or cancer, or every other woe known to man that "mercury madness" folks would like to blame it for!

i hope you find the help you seek...no one wants to see people suffer in pain and with miserable afflictions...
but that does not mean that mercury causes scoliosis!

jess

Pooka1
03-13-2011, 04:38 PM
Would a revision have spared you all the pain and nerve damage?

I wonder if demyelation of spinal nerves and loss of bladder control are known consequences of not treating nerve pain.

I recently read that a woman seems to have permanent nerve damage in her pelvis due to nerve damage done while taking donor bone for her fusion. I had previously decided I wouldn't allow that with my kids. But if I had known that, I would have been constantly reminding everyone and their mother on that surgical floor I did NOT want that for my kid.

AndreaM
03-13-2011, 05:11 PM
[COLOR="#4169e1"]perhaps you feel threatened by those who question the cause you seek to prove

I'm not seeking to prove anything! I don't know any more than any others on here about the accuracy of mercury causing Scoliosis but I have not ruled it out. I just feel that, in my own case at least, this is worth investigating and I'm sure there are plenty of others in the same situation as me trying to find an answer to their ongoing problems.

Just because a website isn't able to back up their ideas with scientific proof doesn't, in itself, mean they are not onto something. It is not the websites themselves, the people who run them, or the claims being made on them, which interest me, it is the notion that heavy metal allergy could lead to various illnesses and that sounds very plausible to me regardless of who is making the suggestion. It doesn't mean I am endorsing everything on these websites, just considering the general idea.

AndreaM
03-13-2011, 05:23 PM
Would a revision have spared you all the pain and nerve damage?

What is a revision? All I had was a fusion, with bone taken from both hips. The rod was never comfortable and loosened after a few months (probably due to the fact that I bought a motor bike as soon as I was out of plaster and crashed into a car bringing it home!). The rod had to be removed a year after it was put in and I was left with pain at the base of my spine. Not nerve pain, but general pain from inflammation down the backs of both legs from scar tissue around the opening where the sciatic nerve comes out.

The nerve pain started very suddenly 15 years later and is generally thought to have occurred from demyelination arising from the B12 deficiency, similar to what happens in MS. It is the demyelination which has caused damage to the sacral nerve which supplies bowel and bladder. Demyelination is a very gradual process and by the time you feel nerve pain (like electric shocks or stabbing pains), the damage is quite advanced. So, something was causing the demyelination long before I had any symptoms. With true B12 deficiency, you usually have all the symptoms of that which eventually progresses into demyelination. Mine happened in reverse and metal allergy destroying my glutathione level certainly fits with the pattern of damage and explains why, despite not having a serum B12 deficiency, I responded very well to supplementation.

Pooka1
03-13-2011, 05:36 PM
What is a revision? All I had was a fusion, with bone taken from both hips. The rod was never comfortable and loosened after a few months (probably due to the fact that I bought a motor bike as soon as I was out of plaster and crashed into a car bringing it home!). The rod had to be removed a year after it was put in and I was left with pain at the base of my spine. Not nerve pain, but general pain from inflammation down the backs of both legs from scar tissue around the opening where the sciatic nerve comes out.

Were you fused successfully at that point? If the crash loosened your rod then why didn't they do a revision? Did you have a lumbar fusion that extended below L3? That could explain the pain at the base of your spine. There is a countdown although if that is what you are dealing with, it sounds very fast.


The nerve pain started very suddenly 15 years later and is generally thought to have occurred from demyelination arising from the B12 deficiency, similar to what happens in MS. It is the demyelination which has caused damage to the sacral nerve which supplies bowel and bladder. Demyelination is a very gradual process and by the time you feel nerve pain (like electric shocks or stabbing pains), the damage is quite advanced. So, something was causing the demyelination long before I had any symptoms. With true B12 deficiency, you usually have all the symptoms of that which eventually progresses into demyelination. Mine happened in reverse and metal allergy destroying my glutathione level certainly fits with the pattern of damage and explains why, despite not having a serum B12 deficiency, I responded very well to supplementation.

Well actually my horse is on thyroid hormone and responds even though he almost certainly does not have a deficiency so I think that is hypothetically possible to respond to B12 even if you don't have a deficiency.

Is the reason you are fishing around for unusual diagnoses because they ruled out MS in your case if I might ask?

I don't know what the hell I'm talking about but let's see where this goes.

AndreaM
03-13-2011, 06:14 PM
Were you fused successfully at that point? If the crash loosened your rod then why didn't they do a revision? Did you have a lumbar fusion that extended below L3? That could explain the pain at the base of your spine. There is a countdown although if that is what you are dealing with, it sounds very fast.

I'm afraid I don't know any of the above lingo regarding Scoliosis. All I know is that I had one rod which was fixed from the 8th vertebra down from my neck to the 2nd last one at the base of my spine. I had tender spots which were checked out and seemed to settle. They told me that the pain at the base of my spine was due to scar tissue and I had a further operation a year after having the rod removed to widen the area where the nerves came out. It made no difference at all to the pain. However, despite the pain, I was able to lead a near normal life and managed to have two normal pregnancies, although needed C-sections for both of them.


I think that is hypothetically possible to respond to B12 even if you don't have a deficiency

It is possible to have a tissue deficiency which doesn't show in a serum test and this is usually due to a Methylation Cycle defect such as Homocystinuria. These defects need the greatest amount of B12 and folate to manage them. This is what I initially thought I may have and Scoliosis and tooth-crowding (which I also have) are two of the possible symptoms of this condition. So are mental retardation and eye problems which are present in one of my brothers.


Is the reason you are fishing around for unusual diagnoses because they ruled out MS in your case if I might ask?

I'm not fishing around for 'unusual diagnoses' - I'm trying to find out what my actual diagnosis is! And since the medical profession hasn't a clue, I'm on my own with this.
Since I had very similar symptoms to MS, I was at one point tested for it but never heard anything more so can only assume there was no evidence of it.

rohrer01
03-13-2011, 08:40 PM
See the thread entitled "fish?" under the research section. Quite interesting and I think applicable to this discussion.

livingtwisted
03-13-2011, 08:53 PM
I don't intend to post again here as I have limited time and would rather use it to help others who are still open to other possible explanations for their health problems. I'm just sorry that others can't at least keep an open mind and see how someone else fares on a new sort of treatment even if they don't feel confident of its relevance.

Well I wouldn't blame you if you stop -- it sounds like you have enough to deal with without being judged by strangers. But there are some people here open to these discussions. Obviously your situation is unique and it must be really frustrating not knowing what's causing all of these problems or having anyone who is in the same boat with you. If doctors don't have the answers, you absolutely need to do whatever you can to help them find those answers. Good luck and please share any progress updates if you feel comfortable.

Ballet Mom
03-13-2011, 09:12 PM
Andrea, I'm sorry you are having such health problems. It is terrible when you have an undiagnosed condition and doctors are unable to come up with a diagnosis and treatment plan.

I have to agree with others who have responded that it would seem to be very unlikely that mercury is causing scoliosis. It seems that it would easily be determined by those in Minimata Bay in Japan who received severe mercury poisoning from industrial pollution. What happened to the rate of scoliosis in the areas affected? I see lots of central nervous system damage to those affected, but no mention of scoliosis. Even in the babies born the symptoms were severe deformities, including gnarled limbs, mental retardation, deafness, and blindness. No scoliosis mentioned. And as rohrer and concerned dad point out in the other thread, Japanese apparently have a lower rate of scoliosis than others.

Also, scoliosis has been around long before amalgam fillings were in use and you would think there would be less scoliosis in areas where there is poor dental care. Has your professor (who apparently holds the patent and receives royalties on that MELISA test) looked into that to validate her findings?

It also doesn't explain why so many people with lax joints end up getting scoliosis. Do they have more dental fillings? My daughter doesn't have any fillings, she got braces after she was diagnosed with scoliosis, and I only had two very small silver fillings that were popped out and replaced with non-amalgam fillings long before I got pregnant with my daughter.

While, it certainly doesn't rule out the possibility, it certainly does seem like a reach to conclude that scoliosis is caused by dental amalgams. And it certainly seems like it could be determined conclusively one way or the other quite easily, especially by looking at the folks affected by mercury poisoning in Japan.

Good luck in your journey, I hope you are able to discover whatever it is that is ailing you.

Ballet Mom
03-13-2011, 09:17 PM
Oh, I also wanted to point out that Japan also removed thiomersal-containing vaccines quite a few years ago and they continue to have an increase in autism which seems to dispel the notion that thiomersal in vaccines is responsible for the increase in autism and other disorders.

(Actually, Japan banned the MMR vaccine. Canada has not had thiomersal in most vaccines since the 1960s, apparently, and they still have scoliosis and autism as far as I can tell). :-)

jrnyc
03-13-2011, 09:26 PM
Andrea...you didn't follow up on the MS question?
all due respect...but i think it would be MOST advisable to do so!!!

when i was deathly sick with Lyme, some Lyme patients were misdiagnosed with ALS and with MS...there were a lot of cross diagnoses!
the patients who responded well to extensive IV antibiotics were removed from the list of ALS and of MS diagnoses....as bad as Lyme can get, they were very relieved....

i went for a year and a half with doctors, most all male, telling me i was crazy, a hypochondriac, etc, but was not sick..only because they didn't know what to test for...as soon as they tested for Lyme, it popped up off the charts positive!
i learned then how many crappy doctors there are in the world, and haven't had much faith in medicine since then!

i would refuse to take "no diagnosis"...and would keep looking until i got one!
i never believed the "doctors" who told me i wasn't sick!

"modern medicine" has a long way to go...
few who have gotten the short end from medicine have much faith in most doctors!

i hope you find a good doctor who won't give up til he figures it out for you!

jess

Pooka1
03-13-2011, 09:33 PM
I'm afraid I don't know any of the above lingo regarding Scoliosis. All I know is that I had one rod which was fixed from the 8th vertebra down from my neck to the 2nd last one at the base of my spine.

Okay so it seems you have a Harrington rod from T8 to L5. That is a TL and L fusion as far as I know. Lumbar fusions with Harrington rods are known to be problematic from flatback syndrome. You started a countdown for when the disk below L5 would fail. It sounds like it failed but you didn't get a revision.


I had tender spots which were checked out and seemed to settle. They told me that the pain at the base of my spine was due to scar tissue and I had a further operation a year after having the rod removed to widen the area where the nerves came out. It made no difference at all to the pain.

Did anyone mention the health of the disc at L5-S1 at any point? This is not a mystery coming out of the blue but rather and can be predicted to occur. It further sounds like they operated on you for stenosis and it didn't work. That would be in keeping with the problem being the disc and not stenosis but I can't possibly know that. I am raising spitting in the wind to operatic levels at the moment. (smiley face)


It is possible to have a tissue deficiency which doesn't show in a serum test and this is usually due to a Methylation Cycle defect such as Homocystinuria. These defects need the greatest amount of B12 and folate to manage them. This is what I initially thought I may have and Scoliosis and tooth-crowding (which I also have) are two of the possible symptoms of this condition. So are mental retardation and eye problems which are present in one of my brothers.

Yes it sounds like you would need to rule that out. But absent the mental retardation it is my understanding you can't have homosytinuria. Also, homocystinuria is in the differential for Marfans and we had to rule it out for my twins. Maybe Marfans is in the differential for homocystinuria and you need to rule that out?


I'm not fishing around for 'unusual diagnoses' - I'm trying to find out what my actual diagnosis is! And since the medical profession hasn't a clue, I'm on my own with this.
Since I had very similar symptoms to MS, I was at one point tested for it but never heard anything more so can only assume there was no evidence of it.

Do you think it is worthwhile at this point to actually get some known expert to rule out MS for you? Did you check that the test they did is the right one? Might it be good to get a re-test if there is a high rate of false negative?

AndreaM
03-14-2011, 08:39 AM
Well, firstly the MS - I can remember some years ago hearing someone (can't remember who it was but a medical person) reading a document and commenting that I had been checked for MS. In 2009, I also had an MRI scan of my entire neck and spine and this is the report my doctor copied to me:

Due to the extreme scoliosis present in the thoracic region, the examination is rather difficult to interpret. On a few axial images there is suggestion of a little high signal in the lower thoracic cord at about T10 but this is not definite. No other abnormality seen in the rest of the thoracic or cervical cord.

The lumbar region of my spine is a mess. I have prolapsed and calcified discs. I also have a small fatty lump there within the spinal canal. As a result, no-one wants to touch my spine but an orthopaedic consultant I saw said that, despite the damage which is clear on the x-rays and scans, this does not explain the other problems I have, including the nerve damage to my leg. There was nothing that he could see that could be causing the nerve damage and he didn't feel it would be wise to go into an already damaged area without good cause - and I agreed with him. So there was clearly something else wrong other than the Scoliosis which was undermining my entire health and causing damage to every part of my health.

The commencement of B12 and folic acid treatment was like a miracle and I literally sprang to life within days. I continued to keep well so long as I stayed on the level of treatment I have found I need and that was the case until I got the 'flu jab on 14th December. I keep a chart of everything I take and how well I am each day and on 16th December I had pain in both armpits and intense hip pain for several days (which is not normal for me). By the 18th, my BP had risen considerably and I have noted that I didn't feel well generally. This continued on and by Christmas I was pretty sick. My bowel had stopped altogether and I needed strong laxative powders to try to make it work. My stomach was in turmoil and I constantly brought up lots of gas. I had no appetite, felt nauseous all the time and like I was going to be sick and spent New Year's day in bed feeling absolutely lousy. Since then, I have improved slightly but my blood pressure is still haywire and is very difficult to control, going up from 116/77 one day to 155/100 the next. This all happened immediately after the 'flu jab so is it any wonder I am suspicious of it?

I have no knowledge of and therefore no answers for the incidence of scoliosis in Japan however I too would love to know the incidence of scoliosis in the children affected by the industrial mercury poisoning. For instance, were they followed up into their teens at which time they would normally develop scoliosis? When there is a major health catastrophe thought to be caused by a preparation from either a chemical or pharmaceutical company, it is nigh impossible to get anywhere. They wield such power that it's almost impossible to successfully challenge them and, even then, it's only when the proof is indisputable and that's rarely possible.

As I've said before, this test may come to nothing and I am quite prepared for that. If this is the case then I shall continue to pursue the Homocystinuria route and I have the medical profession's cooperation in this. I do know of Lyme's disease, although I haven't been tested for it, but I am fairly sure this is not my problem and have had many courses of antibiotics over the last 20 years which should have eradicated it anyway. My first symptoms were nerve damage before I had any other general feelings of being unwell so something was attacking my central nervous system long before I noticed any other symptoms.

I've just checked back to the 'flu jab I had the previous year and notice that a fortnight after it, my BP rose enough for me to take a tablet for it and I needed a few more until it settled down again by April 2010. On that occasion, I had two separate injections 10 days apart - one for ordinary 'flu and one for swine 'flu. This year, the two were combined in the one vaccine and I wonder if this increased the reaction I had to it.

Well, who knows? I'm not making any claims - all I'm doing is getting tested for my own peace of mind and I will update this thread when I get an answer one way or the other.

PS - Just found out today that Thimerosal is also in contact lens cleaning solution so now folks are getting it into their eyes as well!

rohrer01
03-14-2011, 09:26 AM
Andrea,
It is common for people to get mild flulike symptoms after a flu vaccine. Some people, like my sister downright get the flu. Maybe this is the case with you. Sickness can play havoc with BP, heart rate and overall well being.

Also wondering if you are on any antidepressants. The reason I ask is because I have been on a couple of them and had heart and BP problems. The BP was as you describe. It turns out that I have an underlying heart arrythmia and can't take ANY antidepressants. It really stinks because I think that I could benefit from antidepressant therapy AND it states on the welcome page of this site that Cymbalta has been approved for treating scoliosis pain. It might be worth invesitgating whether or not you have a heart condition by getting a full cardio workup as this could explain your BP problems. Have you kept record of your heart rate? There have been times that I have just felt EXTREMELY exhausted (could barely stand) with no seemingly plausible explanation. Then I take my pulse and it's clipping along at around 160 - 180 beats per minute. I'm supposed to be on a beta blocker for the condition, but they give me chest pain, so I choose to deal with the tachycardia.

Also, I think Pooka1 might be on to something with your lower disc. If you have so many lower spine problems, it might be worth more investigation with a second opinion. Sometimes they can just suck out part of a disc that is protruding. Also, since your scoliosis is so bad that it is difficult to get a good look with an MRI, they may be able to do a myelogram/CT scan to get a clearer look. You will need to be seen by a neurosurgeon for this. Although the risk for this is a lot of radiation exposure and with the myelogram part they do like a spinal tap and replace the spinal fluid with a dye that really makes things visible on the CT scan. You can get a massive headache from this that lasts for about a week or two (personal experience), but the results may be worth your while to get an accurate diagnosis. I'm not sure what other tests they can do for your sacral nerves to check the health of them. Maybe someone else on here can chime in and give some advice on that.

As far as the heavy metal (mercury) poisoning, check out the thread entitled "fish?" under the research section. You will find it very informative.

I really hope you get some answers. I have had nerve pain in my hips and legs and it really stinks! Keeping you in my thoughts. (((HUGS)))

AndreaM
03-14-2011, 12:08 PM
Hi,

I'm not an any antidepressants and never have been. I did have a slight heart murmur the times my BP was out of control but my heart was properly checked out when I first began having all these symptoms and there was no explanation for my sudden high BP. Even with it controlled, my heart pounded all the time as if it was really struggling to keep going and I had slight pains around the heart area for years. My pulse has always remained within a normal rate.

However, within a week of starting the B12, my BP returned completely to normal and I was able to stop the BP med immediately and completely for two years. The only times it instantly rose again was the twice I tried to extend the time between my B12 injections and, now I've discovered, the last twice I've had the 'flu jab. The symptoms I experienced after the jab are not like 'flu and they come and go from day to day. Overall, I am definitely better than I was in the first month or so, but the symptoms can return quickly and of course my BP has never settled again. I am not an anxious person and have no particular symptoms of high BP but I am so used to monitoring it at home because I had to all these years that I still regularly check it and that's how I caught it so quickly when it rose dramatically in December. I am as sure as I can be that something in the 'flu vaccine disagrees with me and the effects are long lasting.

One other factor which occurs to me is that I was also taking the Methylcobalamin form of B12 at the time I had the jab and this active form of B12 is reckoned to also activate mercury and make it more potent. Perhaps this is why I reacted even more seriously to the jab than the previous year. Since I didn't keep a written record during the years when I was so unwell, I can't tell if I reacted badly when having a dental filling replaced. I was just so ill all the time that I don't think I'd have noticed anything different and would just have thought it all part of what was wrong.

Although my lumbar spine is so damaged, I don't actually get a lot of trouble with it. I have always had to take anti-inflammatory med to control the general pain but it hasn't got any worse and I am not on a lot of these pills to keep it under control. Neither do I get back pain. All my problems seem to be from damage to my spinal cord which cannot be blamed on my scoliosis so I am very reluctant to let anyone interfere with my spine when it is not causing me any particular problems.

I will read the thread you refer to and see if I can glean anything further from it.

livingtwisted
03-14-2011, 03:48 PM
PS - Just found out today that Thimerosal is also in contact lens cleaning solution so now folks are getting it into their eyes as well!

FYI, I checked my contact solution bottle this am and it specifically said "Contains no thimerosal". It's just a store brand multi-purpose soft contact cleaning solution. So they don't all contain thimerosal.

AndreaM
03-14-2011, 04:45 PM
That's good to know that there is at least a choice for those who are concerned about this issue.

For all the other problems I have, needing contact lenses isn't one of them so at least something in me is still working okay!

Ballet Mom
03-14-2011, 06:08 PM
PS - Just found out today that Thimerosal is also in contact lens cleaning solution so now folks are getting it into their eyes as well!

It's also commonly found in mascara, probably to try to avoid eye infections. Look at ingredients if it concerns you.

AndreaM
03-14-2011, 06:39 PM
It's also commonly found in mascara

Nature has given me permanent extensive black outlines beneath my eyes so shouldn't need mascara! :-D

jrnyc
03-14-2011, 06:41 PM
Andrea
i never meant to imply you have Lyme disease..
i was stating that i know a little bit about doctors who don't go the distance for their patients, and stick with them until they find the cause of problems...
i was also explaining why i lost faith in traditional medicine...

i think the only person who could evaluate your spine would be a top scoli surgeon...not for you to have surgery, but to get a top opinion from the very best in the field....

best of luck
jess

Pooka1
03-14-2011, 06:53 PM
i think the only person who could evaluate your spine would be a top scoli surgeon...not for you to have surgery, but to get a top opinion from the very best in the field....


Plus a top neurosurgeon to explain the nerve damage which may or may not be related to the scoliosis and ancillary issues in the lumber. Seems like a very complex case.

AndreaM
03-14-2011, 08:04 PM
I was supposed to be seen by an ortho consultant some years ago and had to travel by plane to do so. Instead of seeing the consultant, I saw a junior doctor who asked me questions and a little later on came back in to say he'd spoken to the consultant and nothing could be done! I complained to my doctor when I returned home saying it had all been a complete waste of time and I didn't feel I'd had a proper consultation. He agreed with me and referred me back again. They listened to me the second time and, when I asked to be referred to the best ortho consultant in the UK at a hospital several hundreds of miles away, it was done. I stayed in hospital for two nights, had x-rays, scans and a thorough examination only to be told the information I gave above. I am sick of hospitals and have spent time in just about every one known to me. I do feel I have been properly treated and accept that there is nothing that can be seen which is potentially treatable. I also have been of the opinion for many years that I was dealing with two very different problems - the scoliosis (which actually hasn't given me too many problems) and something else which has completely destroyed my life.

I'm fortunate in that I am a lot better than I was just over two years ago when I had already prepared my funeral service and accepted I was going to die before long in terrible pain and was already displaying the early signs of dementia. My life was miserable and I've been given a second chance. Perhaps this is why I am so determined to find out what is actually wrong as I know that I could still improve further if I could just find out what causes these setbacks. I now know I have the potential to feel pretty well yet something keeps affecting me badly from time to time. I don't feel, if it was an ongoing disability, that I'd have good spells and bad but it would rather be a gradual and constant deterioration. That is how it was until I started on B12 and got instant improvement. That would not happen unless the B12 was addressing a serious deficiency in some level. I know I am not deficient in B12, in fact I'm completely awash with the stuff, but it seems to be doing something unseen.

Are there any threads on here which describe the health problems of Scoliotics over the age of 40? I want to know how older sufferers are faring. I was apparently perfectly healthy from the time of my surgery at 19 until just after the birth of my second child when I was 35 (I am now 50). My health collapsed in a matter of months and kept going from bad to worse so I don't feel I can blame that on the scoliosis.

Where are all you senior scoliotics? Please tell me what your health is like now many years after your surgery.

Ballet Mom
03-14-2011, 08:32 PM
I meant we've gotten different measurements and conclusions from different doctors. For example, one doctor (orthopedic) looked at her growth plates and actually said she was almost done growing. Another doctor a week later said that she still had years to grow, looking at the same xrays! Which do you believe?


Hi Still Hoping,

I meant to respond to this and forgot. My daughter has an orthopedic surgeon who said she was at Risser 2 for a couple of x-rays and then in following x-rays went back to Risser 1. Sometimes it's hard for the doctors to see exactly with the x-rays. I've even read that when the ossification of the iliac apophysis is in the final stages, it can be very difficult to see exactly where the ossification is.

Also, even using the same x-ray, one doctor of yours could base the final growth on obtaining Risser 5, whereas the other doctor could know of the studies that show that vertebral growth can continue to occur even after Risser 5. So it's not as black and white as people like to state. It's a shades of grey world.

Pooka1
03-14-2011, 08:51 PM
I was supposed to be seen by an ortho consultant some years ago and had to travel by plane to do so. Instead of seeing the consultant, I saw a junior doctor who asked me questions and a little later on came back in to say he'd spoken to the consultant and nothing could be done! I complained to my doctor when I returned home saying it had all been a complete waste of time and I didn't feel I'd had a proper consultation. He agreed with me and referred me back again. They listened to me the second time and, when I asked to be referred to the best ortho consultant in the UK at a hospital several hundreds of miles away, it was done. I stayed in hospital for two nights, had x-rays, scans and a thorough examination only to be told the information I gave above. I am sick of hospitals and have spent time in just about every one known to me. I do feel I have been properly treated and accept that there is nothing that can be seen which is potentially treatable.

Wow that's quite an ordeal!

I think they would take your case on that TV show "Mystery Diagnosis." Have you considered that? I take it you are in the UK but maybe they would travel there.


I also have been of the opinion for many years that I was dealing with two very different problems - the scoliosis (which actually hasn't given me too many problems) and something else which has completely destroyed my life.

To this "Dr. Bunny", I concur. (smiley face)

But I can't understand why you don't have more pain from the L5-S1 disc or all the other issues in your lumbar? Have you lost the nerves there? To the other players in this sandbox... does that sound like a fusion down to L5 31(!) years ago plus all the other issues in the lumbar can be painless??? I can't fathom that unless it isn't unusual.


I'm fortunate in that I am a lot better than I was just over two years ago when I had already prepared my funeral service and accepted I was going to die before long in terrible pain and was already displaying the early signs of dementia. My life was miserable and I've been given a second chance. Perhaps this is why I am so determined to find out what is actually wrong as I know that I could still improve further if I could just find out what causes these setbacks. I now know I have the potential to feel pretty well yet something keeps affecting me badly from time to time. I don't feel, if it was an ongoing disability, that I'd have good spells and bad but it would rather be a gradual and constant deterioration. That is how it was until I started on B12 and got instant improvement. That would not happen unless the B12 was addressing a serious deficiency in some level. I know I am not deficient in B12, in fact I'm completely awash with the stuff, but it seems to be doing something unseen.

This just sounds harrowing. Have you had a metabolic geneticist evaluate you and your family for any of those conditions besides homocystinuria? I think you said you ruled that out in your case at least, yes? There are probably a million such ailments, only some of which have been named. I am beginning to understand your frustration.


Are there any threads on here which describe the health problems of Scoliotics over the age of 40? I want to know how older sufferers are faring. I was apparently perfectly healthy from the time of my surgery at 19 until just after the birth of my second child when I was 35 (I am now 50). My health collapsed in a matter of months and kept going from bad to worse so I don't feel I can blame that on the scoliosis.

Where are all you senior scoliotics? Please tell me what your health is like now many years after your surgery.

You can start one if you can't find any.

jrnyc
03-14-2011, 08:52 PM
people over the age of 40 are all over the forum...not in any special section...

i have often heard that people with MS get much worse after child birth....

i am surprised that there are so many doctors who have the nerve to charge so much money for services, and then come up with the diagnosis of "we don't know what is wrong"

and i don't know too many patients with bad lumbars who do not have pain...lumbar problems tend to cause pain...as i can testify to..

jess

Pooka1
03-14-2011, 08:57 PM
people over the age of 40 are all over the forum...not in any special section...

Ah I think I see the problem... the section for people over 40 is called "The New 30" with a sub-title of, "Ti Ed's Fantastic Elastic Scoliosis Emporium."

It's easy to miss. (smiley face)

titaniumed
03-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Sharon

I have increased my ďnewĒ and improved age in my signature. I just cannot perform like Iím 30 anymore! A little joke, hard for me to do here lately.

The events in Japan have me occupied right now....

The people of Japan have tried so hard to deal with earthquakes and tsunamiís, itís a battle that is hard to win sometimes.

Iím just somber and mournful right now.
Ed

Pooka1
03-14-2011, 09:58 PM
The events in Japan have me occupied right now....

The people of Japan have tried so hard to deal with earthquakes and tsunamiís, itís a battle that is hard to win sometimes.

Iím just somber and mournful right now.
Ed

That situation is off the hook. An 8.9 is the fifth biggest quake in the last several decades. Folks may not know that that is a log scale... the energy goes up exponentially.

We live on a planet where plates are moving and there are thrust faults surrounding the Pacific plate which is subducting under many other plates. Earthquakes and tsunamis ensue.

So many people are missing and so many lost everything. Nature is just happening and people get in the way. Suffering all around.

debbei
03-20-2011, 07:21 AM
I have just been told by a Professor that my Scoliosis is almost certainly due to the large amount of dental amalgam fillings I had as a child!

I was recently contacted by a woman who worked as a dental nurse and regularly handled the amalgam paste used to fill teeth. She went on to have serious health problems and had a daughter who developed Scoliosis in her teens. This woman has been proven to have heavy metal allergy to mercury. Dental amalgam is 50% mercury and it is also in some medications and vaccines, including the MMR and 'Flu jabs!

When I reacted badly to the Flu jab i had in December (and am still trying to recover from), I took this subject more seriously and intend to have a particular test (Melisa Test) to determine which heavy metals I may be allergic to. Dental braces, and metal implants of any sort can all cause problems, including spinal rods or wires and can also cause other problems such as child autism or Multiple Sclerosis.

This link will give more information and there is a Scoliosis questionnaire you can complete on the website: http://www.mercurymadness.org/

wasn't the case for me. I had my scoliosis long before I had ANY fillings or braces on my teeth.

AndreaM
03-20-2011, 06:29 PM
wasn't the case for me. I had my scoliosis long before I had ANY fillings or braces on my teeth.

From what I can gather, it is only likely to affect those who have a sensitivity towards heavy metals, however, out of interest, did you have all the usual childhood vaccines, some of which until more recently contained Thimerosal?

I now have my own doctor's cooperation to take the blood sample required for this test (which I actually ordered from a different website than the one to which I referred earlier) and am just waiting for it to arrive in the post.

It will be nice to know one way or the other.

LindaRacine
03-20-2011, 06:34 PM
From what I can gather, it is only likely to affect those who have a sensitivity towards heavy metals, however, out of interest, did you have all the usual childhood vaccines, some of which until more recently contained Thimerosal?

I now have my own doctor's cooperation to take the blood sample required for this test (which I actually ordered from a different website than the one to which I referred earlier) and am just waiting for it to arrive in the post.

It will be nice to know one way or the other.
Is that the sound of my eyes rolling back in my head that I hear?

jrnyc
03-20-2011, 06:40 PM
gee, that's what it sounded like to me, Linda

jess

AndreaM
03-20-2011, 07:34 PM
I am really disappointed with the way visitors to this website are treated. Disagree with what I've posted if you wish but to be personally rude to posters is not what I would have expected, especially when some of it is coming from a Moderator.

I will still post the result of the toxicity test because I said I would for the sake of those who are interested enough to read it, but that will be my last contribution to the website. I wonder how many others have been put off contributing to the forum after reading some of the comments above.

Shame really, the website has the potential to help a lot of people with Scoliosis but I would no longer point people in its direction. I really hope that in my efforts to help people with other health problems that I would never treat a poster in the way I have been treated regardless of what I thought of their posting. I don't take the comments personally as I don't think it would matter who had posted the information. I just wish those who think this is an acceptable way to respond to someone who was only sharing information would try to see it from the other side of the fence.

It really isn't nice or necessary.

debbei
03-20-2011, 07:45 PM
From what I can gather, it is only likely to affect those who have a sensitivity towards heavy metals, however, out of interest, did you have all the usual childhood vaccines, some of which until more recently contained Thimerosal?

I now have my own doctor's cooperation to take the blood sample required for this test (which I actually ordered from a different website than the one to which I referred earlier) and am just waiting for it to arrive in the post.

It will be nice to know one way or the other.

Yep, I had all the normal vacines of my era--and I'm now 48.

livingtwisted
03-20-2011, 09:28 PM
I am really disappointed with the way visitors to this website are treated. Disagree with what I've posted if you wish but to be personally rude to posters is not what I would have expected, especially when some of it is coming from a Moderator.

I will still post the result of the toxicity test because I said I would for the sake of those who are interested enough to read it, but that will be my last contribution to the website. I wonder how many others have been put off contributing to the forum after reading some of the comments above.

Shame really, the website has the potential to help a lot of people with Scoliosis but I would no longer point people in its direction. I really hope that in my efforts to help people with other health problems that I would never treat a poster in the way I have been treated regardless of what I thought of their posting. I don't take the comments personally as I don't think it would matter who had posted the information. I just wish those who think this is an acceptable way to respond to someone who was only sharing information would try to see it from the other side of the fence.

It really isn't nice or necessary.

I agree 100%. It's baffling.

Pooka1
03-20-2011, 09:45 PM
I agree 100%. It's baffling.

That's about as baffling as every poll I have ever seen has almost half the US claiming the earth is a few thousands years old.

Some things that appear baffling sometimes in fact have straightforward answers. The problem is folks don't want to hear those answers, not that there are no answers.

In AndreaM's case, I think she is at the end of her rope and trying anything no matter how alternative. I am not clear why she doesn't get new tests to see if some diagnosis can be supported.

What is truly baffling is how she doesn't seem to have much pain from the L5-S1 disc after ~25 years of an H-rod fusion to L5. Just from my cursory reading, I suggest that might be unique and should be a case study in some top-shelf journal. She is perhaps the only person ever to have a fusion to L5 who doesn't need an extension to pelvis. If they can figure out why that is, maybe it can help others.

livingtwisted
03-20-2011, 10:15 PM
Some things that appear baffling sometimes in fact have straightforward answers. The problem is folks don't want to hear those answers, not that there are no answers.

So you have an answer why a moderator would roll her eyes at a member? I would love to know. I won't pretend to know what is causing so much trouble for AndreaM but I do hope she gets some answers or at least relief somehow. And I hope everyone can play nice enough that she sticks around to share any findings.

LindaRacine
03-20-2011, 10:33 PM
I am really disappointed with the way visitors to this website are treated. Disagree with what I've posted if you wish but to be personally rude to posters is not what I would have expected, especially when some of it is coming from a Moderator.

I will still post the result of the toxicity test because I said I would for the sake of those who are interested enough to read it, but that will be my last contribution to the website. I wonder how many others have been put off contributing to the forum after reading some of the comments above.

Shame really, the website has the potential to help a lot of people with Scoliosis but I would no longer point people in its direction. I really hope that in my efforts to help people with other health problems that I would never treat a poster in the way I have been treated regardless of what I thought of their posting. I don't take the comments personally as I don't think it would matter who had posted the information. I just wish those who think this is an acceptable way to respond to someone who was only sharing information would try to see it from the other side of the fence.

It really isn't nice or necessary.
Hi Andrea...

I apologize for being insensitive. I could have been far more careful with my words.

I can almost guarantee that someone will find something abnormal in the tests you'll be paying your funds out for, but they will be totally meaningless in terms of knowing that they have even an iota of effect on your scoliosis.

--Linda

Pooka1
03-20-2011, 10:35 PM
The particular modality AndreaM is pursuing is listed on Quackwatch.

I don't know what the appropriate response to pseudoscientific scams is supposed to be. Maybe rolling eyes is effective at getting folks to start making sense and acknowledge that science is the only game in town. I don't know what it is going to take. I am just saying the US populace is poorly prepared to sort out science from pseudoscience and it shows. The BBB can only do so much to protect folks from themselves.

There is a real problem with folks going to mainstream doctors and not getting a diagnosis. It is bad enough to be sick. Not having a diagnosis only compounds the situation. The rational response to that situation is to keep looking for someone who might know, similar to the situation on that show, "Mystery Diagnosis." It is NOT going to help to go for a treatment that is listed on Quackwatch.

Just my opinion.

AndreaM
03-21-2011, 07:39 AM
I just want to make it clear that I have never had any issue with people rejecting the idea that mercury toxicity might be responsible for some instances of scoliosis. Neither have I any objection to others asking for explanations why I am going down the road I am. I did not at any stage claim that this was beyond doubt - all I did was state my own reasons for believing that there may be some relevance in this when applied to my own particular and complex case and the only way to find out was to have the appropriate test. I don't think this justifies 'rolled eyes' or comments about 'space aliens causing scoliosis'.

I personally do not feel that the likelihood of heavy metal toxicity is a ridiculous notion but others are free to differ. What they are not free to do is publicly ridicule someone on a 'support' forum who broaches the subject in a calm and reasonable manner and who was looking only to offer information for others to make of it what they will. It was that alone which offended me - not differences of opinion.

I also confirm that I am not at the end of my tether. I have had as many tests as it is possible to have and accept the way things are with my health. However, to reject out of hand a possible explanation without giving it a chance is, to my mind, foolish as it could potentially lead to an improved quality of life. I don't really care if any of this appears on 'Quackwatch'. They are not the authority by which I live my life or take my understanding. I prefer to use a mixture of scientific research, other people's and my own individual experiences (even when they fly in the face of such research) and a degree of common sense and logic. In this particular instance, heavy metal allergy fits comfortably with my own sense of logic and understanding. Whether or not it applies to me has yet to be determined.

I hope that, if nothing else, this thread will lead to a more courteous environment for people to share ideas and experiences.

rohrer01
03-21-2011, 04:33 PM
Andrea,
I sincerely hope that you can get to the bottom of this. Your post on another thread about PA has helped me with a dear friend of mine that has B12 deficiency and a high rheumatoid factor. I was able to come up with some questions for her to ask her doctor based on that thread. Please don't think that posting your ideas is useless. I think that others "roll eyes" because they believe that heavy metal poisoning in and of itself would have to be extremely high amounts of metals to lead to anything. That really hasn't been the truth for lead. There are many, many sick children from living in old houses with lead based paint on the walls. It's saddening. I also think that many are missing the point that you are speaking of "allergies", not just poisoning. Overall, your sickness may be caused by something like that. It's likely that your scoliosis wasn't caused by that since you had it before you became ill. If you do have metal allergies, may I ask if you still have instrumentation in your spine or did they remove it? That could make the difference right there. I know you have had your feelings hurt, but you might want to take Pooka1's advice and contact the show directors of "Mystery Diagnosis". Maybe they could put you in touch with a new specialist that can take a fresh look at everything. Sometimes when we have a problem, our local doctor's tend to look inside the box, so to speak. A fresh pair of eyes may be just what you need. In any case, please let us know what you find out.

AndreaM
03-21-2011, 05:00 PM
Rohrer,

I have no metal in my spine.

I know full well that nothing can cure my scoliosis and am not pursuing this test for that reason. It is only in the hope of improving my general health which has taken a battering by something else and the symptoms of exposure to mercury do match what I have been experiencing for many years. That alone is the reason for considering this explanation for my ongoing problems.

I will update this thread as I have promised to do but I feel it is appropriate to let others know that I have notified the NSF of my disgust at the way in which my posts were responded to by a few members. This is no way to run a forum which is supposed to be there to offer support to people with any serious medical condition.

rohrer01
03-21-2011, 05:30 PM
You are not the only one who feels this way. I have heard others leave the forum for this very reason. I have almost done it myself. I try to overlook those types of statements, but like many they do hurt even if it is coming from strangers. Some people feel more at ease talking this way when they are not face-to-face with a person. Please know that you are not alone here. I know that Linda is rough around the edges and I was really shocked, to say the least, when I first joined the forum and saw some of the things that were going on. But in Linda's defense, she does contribute a lot of good information and has had some really good suggestions when you get past the prickles. I have learned that there are certain topics that you just don't bring up or you will get attacked. That's just the way some people are. Please don't leave, there is a lot of good information here, and there ARE supportive and caring people, too. That withstanding, maybe there are other forums more specific to your current condition that would be more supportive of you, since scoliosis isn't your main problem at this time. Like I said before, your other posts were extremely helpful, especially for my friend.

jrnyc
03-21-2011, 07:39 PM
i had a friend who was in very poor health...it started with untreated Lyme diseae, and went downhill from there...he ended up with cardiac problems...
he is no longer with us...
at one point, having tried most everything, he had all his fillings removed...made absolutely zero difference, and he was sorry he wasted the money...

i just think it is such a shame when people waste time and money on treatments that make no difference, except to their pocket books...

that said, it is a free country....people are free to seek whatever they want to...apricot pit tx for cancer, if they so choose!

i got caught up once, too...i went to Mexico for a treatment that, in my saner moments, i never would have considered....though 2 acclaimed doctors told us to try it!
desperate times make for desperate people....
it is sad that some take advantage of that!

jess

Still Hoping
03-22-2011, 12:08 PM
It is not for someone else to say whether you wasted your money on a treatment. Look, there is no cure. Even if you spent money on some alternative treatment & it didn't work, it still does not necessarily mean that you wasted your money!! How insulting! This website IS here to offer support to people with a very serious medical condition. In a sensitive state, it can be very hurtful for people to hear blunt comments. Good luck, and please, don't quit us here!

jrnyc
03-22-2011, 12:34 PM
that was not an insult..
apparently you dont believe in free speech...
it is called an OPINION
people are allowed to have them!
and express them!

people who believe in alternative treatments need to grow thicker skin!
not everyone will agree with them
it is called America!
and my friend John who had his fillings removed, personally told everyone he wasted his money!

i wasted my money...so that is what i said...
and i personally think pursuing metal allergy is a waste of money!

that is MY opinion..
you can have your own...and i won't tell you not to!

jess

Still Hoping
03-22-2011, 12:41 PM
I suspect this is an issue of one doctor having no clue about what he's seeing.


No Linda, these are both highly esteemed medical doctors, both orthopedic surgeons who should know what the heck they are talking about. Why the discrepancy? And who is the average patient supposed to believe? In fact, you can go to 10 different doctors, and frequently you will get 10 different diagnoses. That has happened to me ( maybe not 10, but certainly 5).

Still Hoping
03-22-2011, 01:00 PM
that was not an insult..
apparently you dont believe in free speech...
it is called an OPINION
people are allowed to have them!
and express them!

people who believe in alternative treatments need to grow thicker skin!
not everyone will agree with them
it is called America!
and my friend John who had his fillings removed, personally told everyone he wasted his money!

i wasted my money...so that is what i said...
and i personally think pursuing metal allergy is a waste of money!

that is MY opinion..
you can have your own...and i won't tell you not to!

jess



Yes, everything you say about having your own opinion and this is America ( & the rest of the free world on the Internet) is true of course. There is no doubt about that. But it seems you are missing the whole point. These type of medical forums are here to support patients (& parents of patients) who are suffering. They are looking for understanding, compassion, and comraderie from others in similar circumstances. They do not need criticism ( yes, it was definitely criticism!!!) of the choices they make from someone who has a diifferent opinion than they do. There is a whole world of people out there who would have a different opinion on her treatment. She does not need that! That is why she wants to find other people who are dealing with scoliosis that she can relate to and who can relate to her. If you don't relate to her, then let it go. People come here for support, not to be critiqued.

Still Hoping
03-22-2011, 01:01 PM
Opinions and insults are not mutually exclusive. In fact, most insults *are* just opinions.

People are allowed to voice their opinion (although that isn't a protected right on a private forum) and other people are allowed to say they're insulted by those opinions (also not a protected right). And so the conversational wheel goes 'round.

Very well said hdugger!

jrnyc
03-22-2011, 03:53 PM
that is ridiculous!
it wasn't criticism....it was an OPINION!
i dealt with it when i tried an "alternative"...and i mean REALLY alternative treatment in Mexico...it could never have been tried in the US, and it didn't work...i dealt with the consequences as well!
many people warned me not to go...
i did what i felt i had to, out of desperation! i took their OPINIONS into consideration, then made my own decision...
i am sure Andrea will do the same....
so did my friend who had his fillings removed. we both knew what it was like to feel desperate
i do not for one minute believe anyone who didn't feel desperate would have their fillings removed!

if one doesn't want opinions, one should state that when posting!
if one doesn't want to hear the experience of others who have tried the SAME approach, one should state that when posting!


i am plenty supportive of lots of people with their spinal probelms on here...i have those same problems myself
i will not express an opinion of support to someone i feel is going to do something that will waste her time, when she could spend that time looking for the doctor who could give her the correct diagnosis!
i believe there are very few medical mysteries that can't be solved by the best, "refuse to quit" dedicated medical people...though there are few of those around, sad to say...in my OPINION!

most stuff expressed on this forum is opinion...unless it is hard and fast medical fact that can be proven in a lab or in medical research of some kind...it is opinion...

i feel very badly for Andrea...i just think she is chasing smoke and mirrors...and wasting precious time...
that is my OPINION!

personally, i think you are ENABLING the wrong pursuit on her part...with the best of intentions...but then, we know what path is paved with the best of intentions...
spoon feeding sweetness to people is sometimes the worst thing you can do...
i thought the woman might be interested in some truth...
apparently, i was wrong...
but i did express what many on forum thought (and wrote) privately...
telling someone what they want to hear is not really helping!

jess

jrnyc
03-22-2011, 04:14 PM
you are wrong, hdugger!

opinions are not the same as insults...
check the dictionary if you do not believe that!
i am a licensed social worker...with many successful years of experience with kids and adults..
i know all about support
i also know about enabling

i wouldn't want anyone to agree that i should go to Mexico to treat cancer with ground apricot pits...
i WOULD want to know if they knew anyone personally who tried the same treatment that i was about to try...
and the crazy tx i did try in Mexico was recommended by 2 of the top doctors in the field!
they meant well, too

but some people do not want to hear or read the truth
there is plenty of truth to be found on the internet, of how successful certain procedures are...

i think you are insulting, to imply that i am cold or callous or don't care...
but if that is your "opinion" of me, so be it...you do not know me, so it does not matter to me

i feel bad for Andrea
i just think she is going to find out her pursuit will hit a dead end...
but that is the beauty of America...she has a perfect right to try it...

jess

Pooka1
03-22-2011, 04:18 PM
Opinions and insults are not mutually exclusive. In fact, most insults *are* just opinions.


Actually, many perceived insults are merely scientific facts.

Exhibit A: Almost 40% of the US populace thinks the world in a few thousand years old and are insulted when you ask them to start making sense.

Exhibit A: A majority of the US populace are insulted when you point out that humans are but one of several dozen species of primates that evolved from a common ancestor about 85 million years ago.

These are scientific facts that are taken as insults. What can you do except be embarrassed?

jrnyc
03-22-2011, 04:26 PM
hey Sharon
well, some people are pretty scary with what they believe...
i still remember when Sherri Shepherd said on "The View" that she wasn't sure the earth was round, or something like that...
and we wont get into what some still believe about Obama!

i have not read anyone's posts on forum that really seemed like insults to me, except those of certain few who shall be nameless who used to call you some nasty names...
i was very offended by it...you took it in stride!

i think you are familiar with what i write on forum, and you know i would never intentionally look to hurt anyone...
i have dealt with enough sickness and medical troubles myself, and with my family, to not sympathize with whatever someone feels compelled to do
when medicine doesn't have answers for a patient, it can get really frightening

people don't generally go into social work to cause others pain, either...:)

but EVERYONE is entitled to their opinions...
including those who believe the earth is flat!

jess

Pooka1
03-22-2011, 04:39 PM
hey Sharon
well, some people are pretty scary with what they believe...
i still remember when Sherri Shepherd said on "The View" that she wasn't sure the earth was round, or something like that...
and we wont get into what some still believe about Obama!

Yes she is particularly clueless about scientific facts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkrkaH_V7fE

There are ways to try to square religion and science enough for religious people at least. This woman would benefit from those approaches.


people don't generally go into social work to cause others pain, either...:)

Yes you are one of the only people I know about in the group with this training. We probably could use more.


but EVERYONE is entitled to their opinions...
including those who believe the earth is flat!


Yes they are entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts. So many jump the tracks at that point.

Pooka1
03-22-2011, 05:04 PM
It is impossible to state some facts without them being taken as insulting by huge swaths of poeple. IMPOSSIBLE.

There simply hasn't been a word construction invented to get across some facts without insulting some people.

There is no amount of sugar-coating it or softening it when you are dealing with someone who refuses to make sense.

That accounts for the bulk of the so-called insults around here in my opinion. And there is not a damn thing for it other than to try to improve science education.

rohrer01
03-22-2011, 07:27 PM
The intentons were all good. They were just trying to save her time, money and an excessive amount of worry over something that they believe to be bogus. But, on the other hand, when people are desperate, they will try just about anything. Now IF the metal allergy turns out to be a legitimate thing, the next step would be what to do about it. Is there even a proven treatment for it?

It is very hard to convey emotion with words when it is a written format. We are not all novelists. If we were, maybe we could all get our points accross without offending anyone.

jrnyc
03-22-2011, 08:31 PM
yes, rohr...
that was the point...

people tried to save me the time, aggravation, and money going to Mexico on a secret "alternative tx" trip...
i did it anyway, didn't fault anyone for their opinion, because i knew they were trying to look out for me...
and when 2 top doctors tell you to try it, it is very tempting!
the doctors were also frustrated with patients who were being treated but not showing any improvement!

when one speaks of people needing "compassion, understanding, and support," there was then an implication that i didn't understand that purpose of the forum and didn't offer same...thus, i took that to be your OPINION of me, and as an insult...no matter, as those who do not know me therefore know nothing of my character or intentions...
of course an opinion can be insulting...but that doesn't mean they all are, nor does it mean that an opinion is meant to be insulting...
maybe it is meant to be an offer of sober knowledge by someone who can be objective...
that is one reason people see therapists...

everyone claims that some celebrities get crazy and sick (Charlie Sheen?) because those around them only tell them what they want to hear...it does no one any favor!
it does more good, in my OPINION, to do what Sharon did, and point out procedures on Quackwatch...
knowledge is supposed to be POWER...the more knowledge, the better...

it is called making an "informed" decision, rather than an uninformed one!

but some do not want knowledge...they just want reassurance that no matter their choice, they are right

jess

AndreaM
03-22-2011, 08:39 PM
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion but how you express it says a lot about you as a person. You can say you don't personally accept that there is any validity in the idea of metal toxicity and doubt that the test will reveal anything and still hold on to your integrity. The behaviour I found inexcusable was the snide comments between certain folk which reminded me of what I'd more expect to find in a school yard with two older children sniggering and pointing at another child they think is a fool.

I am not a fool and I am not rude. Neither am I American and I am beginning to see that as a blessing if this is how you offer 'support' to others. To suggest that I am desperate and just wanting to be agreed with adds further insult as I have confirmed several times that all I was doing was passing on information and relating my experiences. I'm a big girl now and well able to handle a difference of opinion. However, after several attempts to ignore childish and rude behaviour I finally ran out of patience.

Pooka1
03-22-2011, 08:58 PM
all I was doing was passing on information and relating my experiences.

Please don't pass on anything listed with Quackwatch. Please.

Also, you might like this group which is very good and people are very knowledgeable there...

http://www.scoliosis-support.org/index.php

Ballet Mom
03-22-2011, 08:59 PM
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion but how you express it says a lot about you as a person. You can say you don't personally accept that there is any validity in the idea of metal toxicity and doubt that the test will reveal anything and still hold on to your integrity. The behaviour I found inexcusable was the snide comments between certain folk which reminded me of what I'd more expect to find in a school yard with two older children sniggering and pointing at another child they think is a fool.

I am not a fool and I am not rude. Neither am I American and I am beginning to see that as a blessing if this is how you offer 'support' to others. To suggest that I am desperate and just wanting to be agreed with adds further insult as I have confirmed several times that all I was doing was passing on information and relating my experiences. I'm a big girl now and well able to handle a difference of opinion. However, after several attempts to ignore childish and rude behaviour I finally ran out of patience.

Yes, unfortunately, we have resident bullies who feel it is their duty to get on their soapboxes and tell everybody how backwards and ignorant they are. Apparently it's what they learn in college these days. It really makes one question the need to send their kids off to these institutions of "higher learning" where they can observe live porn in their classrooms under the guise of "science". Science...not what it used to be.

I would be very interested to hear back on your journey. Doctors really don't consider the small percentage of people who react negatively to things. My daughter was given double the dose of a dangerous blackbox drug because her prestigious doctor insisted that she wouldn't have any side-effects and then double-dosed her without my knowledge even though I was terribly concerned of putting her on this drug. She was on the same dose as 200+ pound men, and she's a thin ballerina. When the complications occurred, he washed his hands of her. A big learning lesson for me, and still trying to fix the damage he inflicted on her. So yes, if you are one who reacts negatively to things, you have to learn to do things differently. I had to look long and hard with lots of research to find a doctor that I trusted to treat my daughter. And the qualifications that I used to choose this doctor were completely different from what I used for the first.

AndreaM
03-22-2011, 09:12 PM
Please don't pass on anything listed with Quackwatch

I'm afraid I do not give Quackwatch the elevated status it appears to have here. Their opinion matters nothing to me. I have seen too many people and organisations attacked and attempts made to put them out of business for no other reason than they are helping those - and with considerable success - who have been failed miserably by the established medical profession. As one who has been failed herself, I am trying to educate the medical profession in the hope of helping those who come after and suffer the same fate.

Thank goodness for people who ignore all the ridicule and persevere regardless. They are the ones who eventually bring about changes for the better in the way people are treated.

jrnyc
03-22-2011, 10:26 PM
i think the point has been made...
ridicule and concern are 2 different things...but apparently, if one disagrees with the going consensus, then one is ridiculing, rather than giving a report of what happened to another adult patient who had his fillings removed...
warnings are not insults...neither is it bullying...
and i find it shocking that someone who likes to toss around insulting names calls others bullies!
that said, i have no need to read this thread any longer...
it seems pretty clear to me what type of info is being passed along...

i made my mistake in the 90's with an "alternative tx"...
my friend made his mistake around 2003, with zero improvement...
i am not saying all alternative treatments don't work...but certain ones have been shown not to work
i learned what i needed to back then about making up my own mind, and i do not fear others who have opinions other than my own!

i have no further interest in those so afraid of an honest report and honest opinion that they must denigrate those who do not agree with them..

who exactly is the bully now?!

and i wouldn't knock being American...some of us consider it a privilege and a blessing! and some of us are not afraid of opinions...for we know that is all they are...opinions...allowable in America...
the 12 step saying..."take what you like and leave the rest" apparently isn't known in some countries...

jess

AndreaM
03-23-2011, 06:54 AM
I'll say it one last time as it doesn't seem to be getting through:

I don't mind a difference of opinion
I don't mind well-meaning warnings
I don't mind people rejecting an idea I have put forward
I don't mind honest and frank advice which is contrary to what I believe
I don't mind others sharing their own experiences which contradict what I have suggested

All I have ever minded is insults and ridicule but I guess we will have to agree to differ as to what is regarded as such.

You should also remember that this website serves more than just the USA but sadly the actions of a few can reflect badly on the whole culture. I know that there are those here who have been perfectly civil and friendly while not necessarily agreeing with my posts and I persisted purely for their benefit. However, if the general experience becomes thoroughly unpleasant then one cannot be blamed for giving up on it.

Karen Ocker
03-23-2011, 05:15 PM
For me a person's experience with a therapy holds validity.

When a person shares what happened to him/her how can that be a criticism???

My opinion is derived from my own experience, that of an acquaintance or something learned from scientific studies.

I always found this forum to be an excellent venue for helping others who want to avoid mistakes seeking help for scoliosis as well as adressing the problem.

When I first consulted this forum, in the original form 9 years ago, I posted my situation. I was 59 years old with an obviously progressing, fused scoliosis curve.
Linda Racine, bless her, suggested right off the bat, to consult a revision surgeon because a regular ortho would just "throw up his hands".

I was not hurt or insulted. It saved me unnecessary expense, aggravation and possibly wrong medical decisions. The rest is my success story.

On the other hand, one must be ready to take in that information.

AndreaM
03-23-2011, 06:29 PM
Karen,

I had no problem with the comments you made earlier in the thread. You have every right to state your opinion of a therapy, even if it is a negative one. There were other comments from Linda and others which did not bother me either, despite them not supporting what I had posted. I am perfectly open to such comments. The only ones which annoyed me were those which had nothing to do with debating the subject in question but which crossed the line into personal insults, particularly when they were between two others but were about me.

jrnyc
03-24-2011, 02:37 PM
yes, Karen
some people WANT all the information they can get, to make an informed decision..
but some do not, even while they protest that they do

i have had insults thrown at me on this very forum, some in this very thread
they roll off my back
i am a big girl
i do not take opinions of those who do not know me to be important!
i "take what i like and leave the rest"

what you just posted, Karen, is so clear and true..
i do not need to add another thing..

jess

AndreaM
04-05-2011, 02:41 PM
I stated that I would come back and give the result of my recent Heavy Metal Sensitivity Test, for the benefit of those who showed at least a passing interest. I actually sought the test from another place and received the result today:

Reference Intervals:
Up to 100 = normal
100 - 200 = borderline
Over 200 = definite sensitivity

Mercury (inorganic) - 180
Mercury (organic) - 230
Nickel - 310
Cadmium - 80
Aluminium - 130
Antimony - 60
Titanium - 140
Tin - 210
Silver - 90
Gold - 185
Copper - 50
Lead - 55

As can be seen, I have a definite sensitivity to organic mercury, nickel and tin and borderline sensitivity to inorganic mercury, aluminium, titanium and gold.

I intend to wait until my own doctor has received a copy of the results, and the private doctor's interpretation of it, before I decide what I will do about it. I was given a copy of the report to my doctor so am absolutely sure that I need to address the toxicity, the majority of which is suspected to come from my amalgam fillings.

For those who are interested, there are also the following links, all of which mention a link between mercury and skeletal muscle:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10963110
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC490489/
http://scoliosis.researchtoday.net/
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es0483490
http://www.scoliosiscorrectioncenter.com/Outcomes-of-Scoliosis-Surgery.htm

Ballet Mom
04-06-2011, 03:21 PM
Please let us know what your doctor says about your test results. I'd love to hear. I think maybe the issue is whether mercury is associated with scoliosis. Perhaps some sort of metal allergy is causing your other symptoms, but there doesn't seem to be an identifiable cause of scoliosis from mercury in any cases that I can find.

Have you run across any studies that show scoliosis forms in those people exposed to large doses of mercury? Obviously, central nervous system problems occur in cases of mercury exposure, but I'd be interested in seeing any cases of scoliosis occurring. I haven't run across any.

Please keep us updated, it would be nice to think you could get some help based off of this test for some of your symptoms.

AndreaM
04-06-2011, 03:52 PM
Hi Ballet Mom,

Yes, my main concern is to hopefully improve my general health now. I know my scoliosis was a lost cause once I had surgery.

Did you look at the links I supplied? I found them interesting, particularly the 3rd one:
http://scoliosis.researchtoday.net/ which describes what happened in birds:

"Some deformities, such as lordosis and scoliosis (twisting of the spine), misshapen heads, shortening or twisting of the neck, and deformities of the wings, were seldom observed in controls, but occurred in much greater frequency in mercury-treated individuals."

And the 5th link: http://www.scoliosiscorrectioncenter.com/Outcomes-of-Scoliosis-Surgery.htm

"I had scoliosis surgery 34 years ago and had a Harrington Rod inserted................
In recent years I have been plagued by a variety of health problems -- severe chronic fatigue and urinary tract irritability (potentially interstitial cystitis), along with chronic pain in my lower back and, more recently, much pain in my left hip where the bone graft was done. We have traced the chronic fatigue to high heavy metal levels (lead, mercury and copper). The heavy metal levels were determined via a 24 hour urine provocation test which measured the levels in my tissues."


Not proof, and I doubt it will ever be able to be proven, but I find them significant. I sure know that if I had a child who had just been diagnosed with scoliosis, the first thing I'd be doing is having them tested for heavy metal sensitivity before agreeing to any surgery.

Ballet Mom
04-08-2011, 11:58 AM
Yes, I did see the thread on birds, but there should be some sign of scoliosis in humans also, especially in places such as Minamata in Japan with the mercury poisoning.

I know that mercury effects are watched in areas with coal mining, etc. Do the areas surrounding coal-fired power plants have an increased risk of scoliosis occurring in the population? It just seems like it would be fairly simple to prove one way or the other if scoliosis was being caused by mercury.

I think the best thing would be for the professor who believes this theory to show her studies and evidence and let people see if it stands up to criticism or not. I mean, has she shown that scoliosis patients all have an allergy to mercury? Has she published anything to prove her case or at least put the facts out she thinks proves her case?



I sure know that if I had a child who had just been diagnosed with scoliosis, the first thing I'd be doing is having them tested for heavy metal sensitivity before agreeing to any surgery.

Good point. Don't surgeons test for this at all prior to surgery? I know they do for nickel, I'm pretty sure.


Anyhow, good luck to you in your search for some relief.

AndreaM
04-08-2011, 01:08 PM
Hi Ballet Mom,

I agree with what you are saying about studies needing to be done (if they haven't been done already). I really don't know how much investigation has been done into incidence of scoliosis among groups exposed to higher amounts of mercury. I think scoliosis is being suggested as just one complication, another being MS, but it follows that it would not necessarily manifest itself the same way in patients, just like all other kinds of conditions.

Coincidentally, I spoke to a woman today who has both scoliosis and MS and asked if she had amalgam fillings. She has quite a few! She didn't seem concerned or consider there may be being a link and that's fine. We all make our own choices.

The standard tests for mercury toxicity are not generally reliable. For those who have a problem detoxifying metals, the toxin is only present briefly in the blood before being deposited into tissue around the body so it will not show up in the blood, hair or urine and, because of this, those with toxicity may well show less presence of heavy metals than a healthy person. This would seem to be correct as I actually ordered a hair analysis test before I knew about this and it didn't show any problem but it did confirm that I had a slow metabolism, so that part at least agreed with the next test.

Rather bizarrely, I read that crematorium workers register a higher degree of mercury toxicity due to the vapour released from the incinerated bodies of those with amalgam fillings!

I am not interested in joining the crusade against mercury in dentistry and vaccinations. My main concern now is to get well but I feel I have to make others aware where I can of the possibility of toxicity if only in thanks for finally getting to the root (no pun intended) of my own problem.

AndreaM
03-17-2012, 10:00 AM
It is now almost a year since I last updated this thread and promised I would do this for the benefit of those who showed an interest.

I had all my amalgam fillings safely replaced in May/June 2011. I had some increased symptoms for a month or so, almost certainly due to an inevitable small amount of mercury exposure during removal.

I then attended a private clinic which has an excellent reputation for treating this problem. The doctor also recognised that I had intestinal bacterial overgrowth and treated me for that first. The quite awful die-off symptoms confirmed it but I am now clear of it and have a much calmer digestive system and bowel.

I was then started on supplements to support my system during mercury removal. It has been a very difficult few months due to detox symptoms but I am now seeing a definite improvement. My last set of blood tests in February showed that I had reduced my load of organic mercury but inorganic mercury (the one associated with amalgam) had increased but this was likely due to the mercury being mobilised but not yet excreted by the body. My level of tin and nickel have come down significantly. Also, the amount of tin attached to cell walls has reduced from 7% to zero and mercury has reduced from 22% to 10% and my mitochondrial function has considerably improved.

In light of these improvements, I am now making another attempt to reduce the level of B12 and folate treatment I need to take. I am very pleased with the progress made so far and that is despite not being able to have the infusions which are normally given, due to my location.

One other discovery I made is very significant. I always blamed the 'flu jab for my sudden deterioration, since it was given at exactly that time. However, I recently discovered that I had ordered low-energy light bulbs through the post and there had been a breakage inside the package. I opened the sealed package indoors on my lap and undoubtedly will have inhaled a significant amount of mercury vapour from the broken bulb and released when I opened the box. This was six days before the 'flu jab. To put this into perspective, the US Environmental Agency gives the maximum safe level of mercury as 0.03mcg. The 'flu jab contains 0.8mcg (26x) and one bulb contains at least 5mg (160,000x). This is all still a drop in the ocean compared to just one average amalgam filling, which has around 500mg, and I had sixteen of them - 250million times the maximum safe level! Nobody is going to tell me this is safe and won't cause any problems.

leahdragonfly
03-17-2012, 02:49 PM
Andrea,

You are obviously not aware that many flu shots are now mercury-free. All single-dose flu shots are free of any trace of mercury, and if you are concerned you can ask for and easily receive that one.

I think it is very irresponsible, not to mention off-topic, to try and scare people who have a genuine need for surgery with all these scare tactics about fillings and metal. Believe me, nobody has this surgery unless they truly need it. I am unclear what your motivation is for posting this misinformation on this forum. It is not helpful.

Pooka1
03-17-2012, 05:31 PM
AndreaM's post is stem-to-stem quackery.

It confuses which forms of mercury are toxic and which are not.

It includes patent pseudoscience that cannot be from any reputable scientific course.

There is no evidence whatsoever for any of the wacky claims.

The numbers don't add up.

For people who have rare diseases or who just can't get the right diagnosis, it seems any explanation, no matter how patently counterfactual, can help in a placebo type way. I hope thinking all that stuff does make her feel better.

AndreaM
03-17-2012, 05:34 PM
I see this forum has reverted to form - resorting to insults.


You are obviously not aware that many flu shots are now mercury-free

Yes, I am aware - now that I know about its inclusion in some vaccines. I didn't know at the time else I would have asked.


I think it is very irresponsible, not to mention off-topic, to try and scare people who have a genuine need for surgery with all these scare tactics about fillings and metal. Believe me, nobody has this surgery unless they truly need it. I am unclear what your motivation is for posting this misinformation on this forum. It is not helpful.

Just because there are those who completely reject all notion of mercury possibly being implicated in any medical problem, does not mean it isn't. I have never said it is definitely the cause of anyone's particular problem, but if they have the information then they can decide whether or not it is worth pursuing. Why would someone be scared by what I have posted? Surely, no parent would subject their child to surgery if there was a possibility of finding out the root cause of their scoliosis, particularly when all it involves is a blood test? My only motivation is to give people the information which their health professional won't give them. What they do with it is entirely up to them.

Why are people sticking their heads in the sand over this issue? If it is there then it needs to be dealt with. There are those of us who have had proper accredited tests, and so for others to pretend it is all a figment of our imagine is completely ridiculous. There is already plenty of scientific evidence of mercury toxicity causing scoliosis in fish and birds so why wouldn't it do the same in humans?

http://www.treatycouncil.org/PDF/IITC_CHR_61/13_IITC_Rts_of_the_Child.pdf

"Mercury, a heavy metal . . . becomes methyl mercury in the environment and permeates the food chain.
Methylmercury is a deadly neurotoxin that bioaccumulates in fish and in women’s bodies who eat fish before and during pregnancy. Developing fetuses then receive twice this concentration of mercury through their mother’s umbilical cord. After birth, children are exposed through breast milk and eating contaminated fish. Mercury Exposure to the fetus and young children causes permanent physical and neurological damage, cancers, kidney damage, cardiovascular and immune system disorders.

The list of her own health problems continues including: scoliosis,
Continued heath effects on her children, grandchildren and other family members include: . . . scoliosis,"

http://curetoothdecay.com/blog/mayo-clinic-website-misleads-about-the-dangers-of-mercury-fillings/

"In the case of Laurie Ramos, she had been in excellent health until the winter of 98 – 99. *Laurie’s spine went from being straight to being curved over 13 cm. off center over the course of about 18 months. Her floating ribs on one side of her body were actually went below her hip bone, and she had to carry her head on her shoulder. *When she went to the doctor, do you know what her osteopath told her? *He told her to go home and do some yoga!
Laurie ended up seeing a physical therapist, having multiple MRIs done, and even considering surgery. *She was experiencing a great deal of pain, muscle spasms, and difficulty breathing. *Every specialist she went to told her to go to a different specialist, and no one seemed to have an answer to her medical problems.
Eventually Laurie ended up going to Mayo Clinic, where she was diagnosed with cervical thoracic lumbar dystonia with torticollis and secondary neuromuscular scoliosis of “uncertain etiology.” *This is all the “professional” way of telling Laurie that she is having strange muscluar movements and spinal misalignment, and the doctors don’t really know what caused it. *Her “treatment” was a prescription for Dopamine, which is a neurotransmitter normally produced by the brain. *Strangely, Laurie was never diagnosed with a dopamine deficiency. *The exogenous use of dopamine caused Laurie to become depressed and it actually made her muscular spasms even worse.
Finally, a glimmer of hope came when a relative referred Laurie to a doctor in central Washington who hypothesized that Laurie’s condition might have resulted from having a root canal and several new amalgam fillings just prior to the onset of her condition. *In total, Laurie had 20 amalgam fillings! *Mercury from amalgam fillings is released into the body upon chewing, drinking hot beverages, and if tooth grinding occurs at night. *Over the course of many years, mercury can build up in the body and reach extremely toxic levels. *Laurie had received her first amalgam filling at age 7.
Laurie then had her fillings removed by a dentist who specializes in safe removal of amalgam fillings. *Following the removal of the fillings, Laurie went through a course of chelation treatments, in which heavy metals are removed from the body’s tissues. *After completing all rounds of chelation therapy, Laurie had completely recovered."

http://annaeadie.com/autism.aspx

"My son has tested positive for high toxic metal poisoning, (mercury, tin, antimony, arsenic, and others
My son and I both have very slight scoliosis of spine."

Pooka1
03-17-2012, 05:38 PM
Why are people sticking their heads in the sand over this issue?

Because there is no evidence for any of these wacky claims.



There is already plenty of scientific evidence of mercury toxicity causing scoliosis in fish and birds so why wouldn't it do the same in humans?

Irrelevant even if true (and I doubt highly it is true) because only humans get AIS.

AndreaM
03-17-2012, 07:43 PM
Oh well, if you say it isn't true, then that must be the case. I didn't know you were a scientist, ornithologist, ichthyologist and medic, with indisputable evidence that environmental toxins definitely do not play a part in any case of scoliosis.

With that vast knowledge base you must be very highly sought after! I must remember to contact the lab who conducted my heavy metal test and tell them that the result is nonsense because Pooka says so.

Pooka1
03-17-2012, 07:46 PM
Oh well, if you say it isn't true, then that must be the case. I didn't know you were a scientist, ornithologist, ichthyologist and medic, with indisputable evidence that environmental toxins definitely do not play a part in any case of scoliosis.

With that vast knowledge base you must be very highly sought after! I must remember to contact the lab who conducted my heavy metal test and tell them that the result is nonsense because Pooka says so.

They need to pony up evidence for their wacky claims. The world is still waiting.

You are deep within a folk science world with your posts. I invite you up into the light of reality and science. It's the only game in town to help you.

AndreaM
03-17-2012, 08:01 PM
only humans get AIS.

Idiopathic only means the cause is unknown. How do you jump from that to mean that it cannot therefore be from mercury exposure, even if not recognised?


I invite you up into the light of reality and science

I am already in the real world where mercury poisoning is beyond dispute and can be tested. It doesn't get more real than that! Or are you going to say next that there is no evidence that anybody has ever had mercury poisoning, or maybe that mercury is completely harmless? I think it is you who needs to step into reality. When you are personally affected by it, there is no option to pretend it doesn't exist.

Pooka1
03-17-2012, 08:17 PM
Idiopathic only means the cause is unknown. How do you jump from that to mean that it cannot therefore be from mercury exposure, even if not recognised?

How do you jump to it possibly being mercury? Why not sunspots? Why not epigenetics? There is no evidence for the mercury hypothesis and there is plenty of counterevidence against it.


I am already in the real world where mercury poisoning is beyond dispute and can be tested. It doesn't get more real than that! Or are you going to say next that there is no evidence that anybody has ever had mercury poisoning, or maybe that mercury is completely harmless? I think it is you who needs to step into reality. When you are personally affected by it, there is no option to pretend it doesn't exist.

The incidences of mercury poisoning are known.

The forms of mercury that are toxic are known.

All of that points AWAY from mercury being associated in any way with AIS just like it points AWAY from mercury causing autism.

Karen Ocker
03-17-2012, 08:44 PM
I was born in 1942. My mom never went to the dentist; she never sent any of us as kids to the dentist until we had a toothache and it was too far gone for a filling. Guess what: my mom, my sister, myself and my brother all have scoliosis. There was no way that mercury fillings caused our scoliosis. Scientist have identified genetic causes for scoliosis.

http://www.dentalwatch.org/hg/amalgampp.html:
"Background History
Dental amalgam has been widely used for over 150 years. It is made by mixing approximately equal parts of elemental liquid mercury (43 to 54 percent) and an alloy powder (57 to 46 percent) composed of silver, tin, copper, and sometimes smaller amounts of zinc, palladium, or indium [1]. Although some forms of mercury are hazardous, the mercury in amalgam is chemically bound to the other metals to make it stable and therefore safe for use in dental applications." this is from:

NCAHF is a nonprofit consumer protection organization that promotes rational health care. This page and the PDF version of this paper are copyrighted but may be noncommercially reproduced with appropriate credit.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/mercurytests.html

http://www.dentalwatch.org/hg/hearings/fda(2010).html

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/mercury.html





There are unscrupulous practitioners playing on irrational fears making a good living drilling out amalgam fillings and doing dubious testing/detoxification

AndreaM
03-17-2012, 09:04 PM
There is no evidence for the mercury hypothesis and there is plenty of counterevidence against it

Hypothesis of what? Mercury poisoning generally or mercury possibly leading to some cases of scoliosis? There is as much evidence for general toxicity as against it, and most of the 'against' is done by those trying to protect their interests. How can they now admit its toxicity when its in the mouths of millions of people? It's not a great leap to believe that the second most toxic substance to the human body causes problems when it is introduced into it in massive doses, compared to what is considered a safe level of exposure. As I said earlier, I had 250million times the safe level of mercury in my mouth alone. You would be quite happy with that, would you, and wouldn't even consider it might cause damage to your health? And you think I am gullible! Even my own dentist, who is instructed by the health authority to use amalgam in her patients has had her own amalgam fillings removed. What does that tell you?




The incidences of mercury poisoning are known.

The forms of mercury that are toxic are known.

All of that points AWAY from mercury being associated in any way with AIS just like it points AWAY from mercury causing autism.

The incidences of mercury are not often known because no-one routinely tests for it. Mine wasn't known - but it's known now and yet you still deny it. However, your statement above doesn't even make sense. What has the fact that mercury poisoning and the forms of mercury are known got to do with the next part of your statement? That has got to be the most unscientific explanation I have seen for anything! I am not talking about autism - I am talking about scoliosis and, to the best of my knowledge, there is no information available on the study of mercury and its possible links to scoliosis so how you say it points away from AIS needs explained. If you know of any credible research articles making this claim, then I'd be delighted to see it.

Finally, no-one has ever said that all cases of scoliosis are due to mercury. I'm sure there are all sorts of factors which may lead to scoliosis, some known and others not. There are also other ways to ingest or inhale mercury, such as eating large quantities of the fish that contain high levels of it or inhaling mercury vapour from broken fluorescent light bulbs.

http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et1202/et1202s17.html
http://www.epa.gov/cfl/cflcleanup.html

LindaRacine
03-18-2012, 03:04 AM
Even my own dentist, who is instructed by the health authority to use amalgam in her patients has had her own amalgam fillings removed. What does that tell you?

That maybe, someday, she'll wake up and realize that she probably went off the deep end for awhile. Why do you think the other 99.9% of dentists haven't removed their own fillings, and the fillings of all of their patients?

AndreaM
03-18-2012, 06:39 AM
Why do you think the other 99.9% of dentists haven't removed their own fillings, and the fillings of all of their patients?

Oh, you personally know the statistics for dentists having amalgam in their own mouth? Can you give a source for the figure of 99.9% you quote?

In the UK, NHS dentists do not have the option of placing non-amalgam in their patients. Neither can they remove them for any reason other than they need replaced with yet more amalgam.

It seems the Scandinavian countries are more up to date. I suppose they are wrong as well?:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/03/idUS108558+03-Jan-2008+PRN20080103

Pooka1
03-18-2012, 09:55 AM
Mercury poisoning generally or mercury possibly leading to some cases of scoliosis?

Mercury as it relates to AIS is the only thing on the table. Until you pony up bone fide research showing a link between teh two they you can't speculate wildly across the universe of possibilities. I mean you can but it won't help you.


Mine wasn't known - but it's known now and yet you still deny it.

You do not have a known case of mercury toxicity until a bone fide medical doctor or toxicologist confirms it. So far, and correct me if I'm wrong, you just have quacks. Yo have no known exposure to enough of the right form nor do you have a credible suggestion on where you might have been exposed to enough of the right form. Until you do it is arm waving of the worst kind because it is not helping you and it is actively misleading the troops.


However, your statement above doesn't even make sense. What has the fact that mercury poisoning and the forms of mercury are known got to do with the next part of your statement? That has got to be the most unscientific explanation I have seen for anything! I am not talking about autism - I am talking about scoliosis and, to the best of my knowledge, there is no information available on the study of mercury and its possible links to scoliosis so how you say it points away from AIS needs explained. If you know of any credible research articles making this claim, then I'd be delighted to see it.

You picked mercury at random. You have no scientific reason to think mercury is causing your problems. I picked autism to show how they rule out thinks like mercury toxicity in certain diseases. Given the known genetic links in AIS, it is not rational to suggest a toxicity etiology at this point.


Finally, no-one has ever said that all cases of scoliosis are due to mercury. I'm sure there are all sorts of factors which may lead to scoliosis, some known and others not. There are also other ways to ingest or inhale mercury, such as eating large quantities of the fish that contain high levels of it or inhaling mercury vapour from broken fluorescent light bulbs.

http://www.epa.gov/cfl/cflcleanup.html

It is good to minimize exposure to things like mercury. It does NOT then follow that incidental exposures like you has of a low-to-no toxicity form can move the needle on your health.

Please get real medical advice.

Pooka1
03-18-2012, 10:01 AM
It seems the Scandinavian countries are more up to date. I suppose they are wrong as well?:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/03/idUS108558+03-Jan-2008+PRN20080103

Did you read that article??? They have moved away from amalgam fillings to reduce mercury going into the environment, NOT for human health reasons. I am not surprised Scandinavia is out ahead on the environment or out ahead on anything for that matter. As the most atheistic region of the globe, I expect they to be out ahead on science, morality and ethics.

Please STOP reading the quacks and try to understand the science of this issue.

AndreaM
03-18-2012, 11:21 AM
They have moved away from amalgam fillings to reduce mercury going into the environment, NOT for human health reasons

"The Swedish amalgam ban is for both environmental and health issues, according to authorities."


try to understand the science of this issue.

I think you would be wise to take your own advice. Dental amalgam, both before and after it enters the mouth, is considered toxic and still has to be handled as a poison after it is removed. If it is toxic before being placed in the mouth, and still toxic when it is removed, then why would it be safe while it is in the mouth? And don't say, "because it is in a stable alloy". It is still in this alloy when it is removed so why don't they just chuck it in the waste? Instead, they are instructed not to handle it with bare hands and store it is sealed containers for toxic waste collection.

Pooka1
03-18-2012, 11:45 AM
"The Swedish amalgam ban is for both environmental and health issues, according to authorities."

That cannot be correctly referring to human health as there is no evidence amalgam filling are detrimental to human health. Maybe it is meant just to assuage the folk scientists who are immune to reason and ration and science.

The article bangs on almost entirely about environmental issues and that other materials are just as good.


I think you would be wise to take your own advice. Dental amalgam, both before and after it enters the mouth, is considered toxic and still has to be handled as a poison after it is removed. If it is toxic before being placed in the mouth, and still toxic when it is removed, then why would it be safe while it is in the mouth? And don't say, "because it is in a stable alloy". It is still in this alloy when it is removed so why don't they just chuck it in the waste? Instead, they are instructed not to handle it with bare hands and store it is sealed containers for toxic waste collection.

The issue is releases of mercury TO THE ENVIRONMENT where if is exposed to anaerobic, sulfate-reducing conditions may get methylated which is a toxic form.

Completely misunderstanding the issues makes it impossible for you to assess things correctly.

If you think there is evidence for dangers to human health from mercury amalgam then why didn't all the Scandinavian countries simply state that rather than all the other reasons they state? Why isn't it banned in the US? It's because there is no evidence. All those other reasons are superfluous if there was demonstrated human health risk.

Remember, if something doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true.

rohrer01
03-18-2012, 03:23 PM
I'm jumping into this conversation blindly here. I have family members who have metal sensitivities. My mom can only wear gold jewelry, etc. I had some amalgam fillings. Every tooth in my head that had amalgam in it hurt. I had them all removed but one. The one I still have still hurts. I will say, though, that when I wear silver jewelry, which is never anymore, I would blister wherever the silver touched my skin. I can't eat off of real silver flatware. It's like someone running their nails down a chalkboard to put silver in my mouth.

So the issue here for me, at least, is the silver, not the mercury. I know mercury is toxic, but, back in the day when people didn't know better, my mother used to get it and shine her nickels with it with her bare fingers. She's still alive and kickin', never had cancer or any other major health problem. I'm the only one of her kids with scoli and I'm the youngest (she was 26when I was born).

I would prefer they didn't use amalgam fillings. My kids never had a cavity, so I never came across that issue as a mother.

Without reading the article being discussed - which is a no, no - I would tend to think letting the mercury into the environment where it gets concentrated into the food chain makes more sense as to why it needs to be disposed of properly. Some fish contain extremely high amounts of mercury and therefore should either not be eaten or eaten in very small quantities, for example.

fashionista
01-12-2013, 06:55 AM
Andrea,

What is your test result? I've been having attacks from sever mercury poison from my amalgam and recent exposed to elemental mercury from broken mercury thermometer 6 months ago.

I started to do research finding what is going on w/ the sudden sever eczema and linked to the root cause of eczema is mercury, then realize I have lots of the symptoms since I was young, around age 8 or 9 which was around the age I developed scoliosis.

One of mercury toxicity diseases is Multiple sclerosis which is an autoimmune disease that affects the brain and spinal cord (central nervous system). Mercury can cause neurological damage which leads to neuromuscular changes, and changes in nerve responses, muscle weakness, etc.

Mercury also damages, blocks and robs certain trace elements which lead to inactive certain enzymes which cause those diseases.

Watch this video to see how Mercury damage brain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU8nSn5Ezd8&list=PLlkwXdMYwoC9jbonbEaUntukfyNSH5cE6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3bFBMzyKE8&list=PLlkwXdMYwoC9jbonbEaUntukfyNSH5cE6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylnQ-T7oiA&list=PLlkwXdMYwoC9jbonbEaUntukfyNSH5cE6


When someone has mercury toxcity, I'd think there's also other metal in their bodies are causing problems, however, mercury is the most potent and cause most the damage, and that's why we just say Mercury posion but it can actual refer to heavy metal toxicity. I have other metal allergies, toxic causing problem, but mercury is the highest .

Metal toxicity can transfer and pass on from mother to the baby. Someone never eat fish, never have exposes to mercury element, never have amalgams can still have high metal in their body causing damage cells and DNA from their mother, grand mother, and etc pass on. .

Just by removing amalgams, body does not automatic remove metal out of body. Body removes organic mercury, but not inorganic mercury which is from amalgams. Inorganic mercury and other metal stay in your body until you move them out. Then, you can start to heal.

We should keep digging and find out more info. I would not be surprise if mercury, metal toxicity has strong link to scoliosis at all. In fact, I have been thinking that since I am finding out more and more info and that's how I found this post. I googled it heavy metal and scoliosis









Thank you Mehera,

I have no way of knowing what this test will reveal, if anything at all. However, neither will I ever know if I don't give it a chance. Scoliosis is only one of my problems. I was on acid-suppressants to protect my stomach from NSAIDs needed for ongoing pain following my fusion. Fifteen years later, I started having shooting pains in my leg and had a TIA shortly after. I was then put on BP meds and from then on never felt well. I was dizzy, had increasing nerve pain, extreme fatigue and stomach issues. Then I began to lose the feeling in that leg and the muscles withered. Next was a gradual and total loss of bowel and bladder function which is permanent. Added to it all was general allergies, muscle cramps and spasms and insomnia. I felt at the point of death when, by chance, I saw a list of the symptoms of Pernicious Anaemia. Since it was exactly describing me, I read up on it and approached my doctor. Despite all the tests being in the low normal ranges, he allowed me to try the injections and the effect was instant and spectacular. After months of terrible pain, especially during the night, it disappeared the night of that first injection. Over the next few days, my energy level began to improve and I stopped falling and banging into furniture and doorways. My BP returned to normal within the week. However, I needed a very high amount of B12 and folic acid to keep stable and fortunately my doctor is one of the few who allowed me to have them. He knows how ill I was and what difference it made to me. I suspect I will always have the results of the nerve damage which is reckoned to be irreversible due to the length of time it has been there but I have some sort of a life back. Then, in December, I had the 'flu jab and within days began to get quite a few symptoms, including general sickness and stomach upset. I have very gradually improved to some extent but my BP is very erratic, even on medication. I do not have any official diagnosis, other than demyelination of my spinal cord, and the evidence of bladder and bowel shutdown and nerve damage to my leg.

The fact that I am on B12 and folic acid is consistent with the theory of it helping my glutathione level (which gets destroyed by mercury) and I am wondering if that is why it has been so effective in improving my health. I know I can't do anything about the Scoliosis but if I can even recover sufficiently to be able to stop having to inject into muscle 3 times a week, it will be worth it.

Even if was eventually proved that heavy metal allergy was leading to cases of Scoliosis, quite what you would do about it is another matter. Obviously, you can't test the entire population and even if you did you are not going to know which people might go on to develop it and what other factors may have to come into play. So that leaves you only able to respond once the first signs of Scoliosis begin to appear. It would be very interesting to know what the figures would be if everyone in this position was tested for metal allergy as soon as Scoliosis was detected. Would those here who are so dismissive of the whole idea refuse to have their child tested? Imagine perhaps later finding out that you could have halted or reversed the Scoliosis. There are many Scoliotics now in their 40s or 50s who have gone on to have the kind of problems I have. Why should they develop these symptoms if all that was wrong was a physical deformity of their spine? There are of course all the others who don't have Scoliosis but have MS and some unfortunates have both.

I don't intend to post again here as I have limited time and would rather use it to help others who are still open to other possible explanations for their health problems. I'm just sorry that others can't at least keep an open mind and see how someone else fares on a new sort of treatment even if they don't feel confident of its relevance.

PS - I gather that Thimerosal has been withdrawn from some vaccines but mercury in dental amalgams is still being used, except in Denmark where it was apparently banned because of the controversy.

jrnyc
01-12-2013, 10:17 AM
i thought that demyelination (splg?) of the spinal cord and those other
symptoms are signs of MS...?

i tried reading all of this thread to see if you mention having MS, but
i got a little....overwhelmed with words...

also...for those without metal fillings...how would anyone avoid
mercury, if it is in atmosphere...??
and the kids with scoli who do not have metal fillings...
what about them...?

i do not believe this theory...but i do believe how much you
have suffered...
i feel very bad about all you have been thru....
i do not know what the answer is...
but i do hope you have better health.
if you are never on forum again, per your last post...
i still wish you well.

jess...& Sparky

AndreaM
01-13-2013, 05:50 AM
Hi fashionista,

My lymphocyte sensitivity test in 2010 showed a very high amount of mercury and other metals. I did finally have the Melisa test but by then I'd already had my amalgam fillings removed and several months of supplements to draw out remaining mercury. The Melisa test is a completely different kind of test to the Lymphocyte Sensitivity one but even after the treatment I'd already had, there was still a significant amount of mercury in my system and I wish now that I had taken this test at the beginning for a better comparison.

Since I last posted, I managed to get a Methylation Panel genetic test done. I am in the UK and it is not available here so I had to send a blood sample to the USA to have it done. I received the results in December and I have single and double mutations in several important genes involved in the methylation cycle. This explains a lot of my problems, including my difficulties detoxifying heavy metals. I started a separate topic on Homocystinuria and I have also discovered that the gene responsible for this condition (which can cause scoliosis) is one of the genes on which I have both a single and double mutation.

I am due to see a Biochemist this week to discuss these gene defects. I'm not that hopeful of getting anywhere to be honest as the medical profession is very lacking in knowledge about these problems, however, it's worth a try! Even if I don't get anywhere with this route, I still have advice about how to manage the defects and can self-medicate to try to support my damaged methylation cycle.

I hope this helps,
Andrea