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lisazena
03-04-2011, 11:15 AM
Hi! This is my first post. I have congenital scolioisis, an S curve with a 60 degree lumbar curve. I'm 57 and had no problems till about 5 1/2 years ago. Problems began with sciatica that I could alleviate with yoga and swimming, but now it has gotten worse and the sciatica has turned into peroneal neuropathy and I have a lot of problems with my lower extremities, not directly with my back, because of L5/S1 impingement. I was thinking of seeing a Schroth therapist in NY and know this is designed for younger people, but talked to one person over 50 who found some success. Has anyone else tried this? Or I'm open to other ideas directed towards nerve impingement, other than yoga for scoliosis, which used to work for me, but now just made me worse. Thanks.

LindaRacine
03-04-2011, 02:26 PM
Hi...

If you do a search (see the search box above) on the word SCHROTH, you'll find several threads on the topic.

With that said, I'm wondering if you've seen a scoliosis specialist, and if surgery has been recommended. Left too long, leg pain can easily become permanent. Having just had surgery for the same reason, I can tell you that I would have been devastated if my pain was permanent.

Regards,
Linda

livingtwisted
03-04-2011, 03:18 PM
I've started some Schroth exercises and will be going for a 4-day treatment in a few weeks. Will report back how it goes.

lisazena
03-04-2011, 03:30 PM
Hi...

If you do a search (see the search box above) on the word SCHROTH, you'll find several threads on the topic.

With that said, I'm wondering if you've seen a scoliosis specialist, and if surgery has been recommended. Left too long, leg pain can easily become permanent. Having just had surgery for the same reason, I can tell you that I would have been devastated if my pain was permanent.

Regards,
Linda

Hi Linda,
I am about to see my first scoliosis specialist on Monday--William Welch. Upfront, when I sent my records I asked for physical therapy recommendations and his response through his receptionist is that physical therapy won't work so maybe you're right. How old were you when you had surgery? Right now, the physiatrist I saw didn't think I would get rid of my problems in my feet (at least without surgery), but she is not a scoliosis specialist. Also, I did check the Schroth thread and didn't find anyone who did it in my quick perusal. Thanks for your thoughts.
Best,
Lisa

lisazena
03-04-2011, 03:31 PM
I've started some Schroth exercises and will be going for a 4-day treatment in a few weeks. Will report back how it goes.

Hi Mehera,
I look forward to hearing how it goes for you. The person I am thinking of seeing just suggested one session.
Best,
Lisa

livingtwisted
03-21-2011, 09:25 PM
I wanted to report back on my experience. I've learned a lot, but it is yet to be seen how much of it I am able to integrate into my daily life. It provided me with a lot of practical solutions for things that I can do do to improve my days in general and exercises to stretch and strengthen in ways specific to my curve. In my opinion everyone with scolioisis, fused and unfused, could benefit from Schroth. But I am not implying in any way that it is a miracle cure. It's like saying that everyone can benefit from daily exercise. I would say that as an adult, if you are in pain but not progressing, then it would be worth exploring first.

A lot happened in those 4 days so please feel free to ask questions.

rohrer01
03-21-2011, 11:13 PM
Were you inpatient for those four days? Did they give you boatloads of exercises that you have to do every day? I'm interested in pain reduction as my surgeon thinks that surgery at this point will only increase my pain.

livingtwisted
03-22-2011, 02:00 AM
It was 5 hours per day, so 20 hours total. Yes, I have lots of exercises to do, and they do require getting some special equipment, but to me that part is worth it. The focus wasn't on creating a precise routine that I go home and follow every day, but more getting familiar with the principals, customize the exercises to my curve, and working on how to recreate them properly at home. Now its really up to me to figure out what routine works for me. I won't necessarily do every exercise every day, but maybe figure out a plan where I alternate exercises. And then there are also slight modifications once you understand the principals so you can get a nice little stretch any time in your day, like a quick bathroom break.

Patricia
04-03-2011, 03:17 PM
Last year, age 66, my back really became painful when walking, standing or cleaning house. By May I was beginning to feel unsteady when walking and found that my right foot was sometimes turning in. And I only felt safe if i walked with a cane. I was being to consider going to Europe for the Schroth Method when my son sent me the link to Scoliosis Rehab. I was extremely lucky to get in July 17, with 5 days at the Arizona clinic. ( Thur, Frid, Mon, Tue,and Wed). Entrance and exit photos showed definite improvement in posture and a measured 1/2in gain in height. Neighbors commented on my visible improvement in posture. in Oct, at annual physical, my doctor was astonished at the improvement in my back and i still had my 1/2 gain in height.

Schroth does require that one does the individualized exercises forever. But mine take 20-30 min, 3 X week. And the installation of two bars. But I must admit I have slipped a couple of times. And have left a couple of weeks go by without my exercises.

Patricia 67 Atlanta
(2009) 59 degree right curve L1 to L4 ; 32 degree left T6 to T12. A very pretty S.

flerc
04-22-2011, 04:31 PM
Patricia, maybe I not understand correctly what you are saying.
Do you gained 1/2 inch in height when you are standing in a natural way? If it's true, then you should have reduced degrees.
I have never heard something like that in an adult with a surgical curve with this method. I have heard some cases with Spinecor or IY, but never with Shroth.

pmc
04-22-2011, 04:44 PM
I had a phone conversation with a local Schroth practitioner (I had already emailed him my x-rays and photos of my torso from various angles, etc), and he said that because adult skeletons are less malleable than children, the cobb angle would probably not improve. Just from reading the experiences of members who have done it I can see that they vary a little from place to place. Here are some notes from my conversation:

There are 8-day courses for out of town people, and weekly or bi-weekly options for locals. He stressed three times that it is a serious commitment and "not for the faint of heart"! The course lasts 8 to 10 to up to 23 hours, depending on your situation and how quickly you learn and adapt.

The home practice would require 30 minutes a day for 4-6 times a week, though he also has a variant for busier people as well.

The exercises themselves involve "unilateral breathing", which sounds a bit like the breathing into the compressed lung exercise from 'Yoga for Scoliosis', though he mentioned there was a visualization aspect involved. The patients get their body into a corrected posture (I think that means a straighter spine) and then you do the strengthening exercises. I think I saw some video of this on Youtube. I would also get DVDs of myself doing the exercises as reference/reminders.

I was curious about props I might need, and what specialty equipment might cost. It seems that most of what I'd need are things most people already have: chin-up bar, chair, stool, dowels, etc. If he feels I'd need bolsters or rice bags he would provide them. I asked about "wall bars" and he said they weren't mandatory, but they'll provide blueprints if I wanted to make my own of have someone do it for me.

I asked him what I could realistically expect (without him yet examining me in-person), and he said these are likely for someone in my situation:

Pain reduction
Lung capacity 15-20% possible improvement
Chest expansion, improved rib mobility
Improved posture and cosmetic appearance
Cobb angle not likely to improve because adult spines are less mold-able because they've stopped growing.
Possible height gain of 1/2-1" because of strengthened muscles

<end of notes>

That's a good question about how the person could get taller without reducing the cobb angle.

Pooka1
04-22-2011, 05:54 PM
That's a good question about how the person could get taller without reducing the cobb angle.

Apparently there is some play in these curves. If the first measurement was taken near the end of the day and the other measurements were taken in the morning, that might explain the 1/2" difference. The PT might just work to help hold that longer and longer.

flerc
04-22-2011, 05:54 PM
That's a good question about how the person could get taller without reducing the cobb angle.

It's not possible. Cobb angle in some plane (not necessary the frontal) should to be reduced.



Cobb angle not likely to improve because adult spines are less mold-able because they've stopped growing.


If it's only a matter of bones, how may be that adults has a reduction while using the Spinecor?

flerc
04-22-2011, 06:09 PM
Apparently there is some play in these curves. If the first measurement was taken near the end of the day and the other measurements were taken in the morning, that might explain the 1/2" difference. The PT might just work to help hold that longer and longer.

It occurs also in normal spine, because disks decompression. I cannot imagine how a PT may hold it.

flerc
04-22-2011, 06:21 PM
Hi! This is my first post. I have congenital scolioisis, an S curve with a 60 degree lumbar curve. I'm 57 and had no problems till about 5 1/2 years ago. Problems began with sciatica that I could alleviate with yoga and swimming, but now it has gotten worse and the sciatica has turned into peroneal neuropathy and I have a lot of problems with my lower extremities, not directly with my back, because of L5/S1 impingement. I was thinking of seeing a Schroth therapist in NY and know this is designed for younger people, but talked to one person over 50 who found some success. Has anyone else tried this? Or I'm open to other ideas directed towards nerve impingement, other than yoga for scoliosis, which used to work for me, but now just made me worse. Thanks.

Spinecor cannot be used in congenital scoliosis? It not seems so clear why. I think that curve also should to be reduced while using this brace.

Patricia
07-05-2011, 01:24 PM
[QUOTE=flerc;120728]Patricia, maybe I not understand correctly what you are saying.
Do you gained 1/2 inch in height when you are standing in a natural way? If it's true, then you should have reduced degrees.

Yes, I was measured at my doctor's office and I stand in my corrections, which must be the posture that I try to maintain at all times. (Think of an army officer - and his or her posture. A drill sargent would be helpful to keep me in shape. I also keep a mental picture of the Buckingham palace guards who stand at attention 8 hrs/day.)

But this spring I came down with a virus that kept me mainly in bed for a week and then just laying around for a month (no exercising) I lost 10 lbs. But it was getting late to put in my garden and I unwisely did that instead of my schroth exercises. I have developed a very deblitating sharp pain low on the right side of my spine, something i never had before.

But i have resumed my exercises and hope to regain some of my former strength. But that is the problem with a treatment based on an exercise program -self discipline. I thought I had the discipline to keep it up. Time will tell. But after talking to someone who had surgery at my age (also with a major curve) I think i will still put my money on an exercise program. (The surgeon at Emory clinic thought that I would need front and back incisiions.)

i just wish there was a Schroth practitioner in the Atlanta area so I could continue the exercises under supervision.

Patricia

flerc
07-17-2011, 05:49 PM
Patricia I think that if youíll take another X-ray, you should to stay stand up in the same posture as you was with the last X-Ray if you want to know if you really had a an actual reduction of degrees.. Surely when you remains in that straight posture your curve is reduced if you gain height (some curve must to be reduced). But a real reduction only could be measured in a normal posture, without stretching the spine. But it donít means that even if you had not a real reduction, Schroth is not working with you. If your curve is not increasing and you have not worring complications.. it seems to works!

Of course is difficult to know what could happen in the future. An exercise program -self discipline of course is not what someone wants to follow all your life, but.. maybe those exercises not only reduce the injuries of your scoliosis but also improve other issues of your health. When I was to talk with a Qui Gong master, I saw so many people in the class, with different problems because not doing anything for many years.

Anyway I think that non surgical methods, are like martial arts. Many people want to be invincibles with only a short practice. Of course is impossible, and surely never would be invincibles even a practice of 14 hours per day, as surely nobody could find a cure to her scoliosis. And also, as from some people boxing is better than wrestling, or tae-kwondo for others instead of jiu-jitsu, surely some non-surgical method would the best for someone, and other different would be for others.
And surely the best for all is the rational combination of this methods, as the best martial art is the mixed martial arts.

I hope the best for you

whatishappening
08-20-2011, 08:41 PM
I wanted to report back on my experience. I've learned a lot, but it is yet to be seen how much of it I am able to integrate into my daily life. It provided me with a lot of practical solutions for things that I can do do to improve my days in general and exercises to stretch and strengthen in ways specific to my curve. In my opinion everyone with scolioisis, fused and unfused, could benefit from Schroth. But I am not implying in any way that it is a miracle cure. It's like saying that everyone can benefit from daily exercise. I would say that as an adult, if you are in pain but not progressing, then it would be worth exploring first.

A lot happened in those 4 days so please feel free to ask questions.

Hi Mehere, I am seriously considering taking Schroth course. Can I ask you- do they xray you there or do you need to bring your own xrays?

livingtwisted
08-21-2011, 12:39 PM
Hi Mehere, I am seriously considering taking Schroth course. Can I ask you- do they xray you there or do you need to bring your own xrays?

I brought my x-rays. I think this is pretty common with Schroth, but I imagine it depends on the facility/practitioner. Where were you thinking of going?

whatishappening
08-21-2011, 07:56 PM
Hi Mehere, thanx for responding.

Well there is a chiropractic place outside of Toronto that I have found:
http://www.leasidechiro.com/

Also someone in California:
http://www.scoliosispt.net/

also the clinic in Arizona:
http://www.scoliosisrehab.com/

I have friends in Toronto I can stay with. Right now it is all about money. I am guessing $60/hr minimum (?) so $1200 plus travel and accomodation. That's why I wish there was someone here in Vancouver or Seattle. My issue is mostly rotational but I think it is very bad and getting worse and I have been getting painful radiulopathy that is also feeding into the rotation and long story but I really need to at least stop this from getting worse. So because it is not huge I am hoping I won't need as many hours. I have already figured out some exercises on my own but I get really scared playing with my own body and the physiotherapists I have seen won't touch it- one told me that with scolioiss you are just dragged along a never-ending path of adjustments and it is best just to leave it alone (!!!). The others- well 2 say just focus on muscle balance but that is trickier than they think, and one or 2 said basically all they can do is treat the pain. I SO do not believe that. If I could just find someone who has it themselves- these PT's really just don't seem to understand.

I believe in the Scroth because I accidentally came up with a couple of those exercises on my own without knowing they are Scroth (such as when a little boy in some old video footage places facecloths under his butt, chest and shoulder while laying flat- I have been doing that and have wondered and wondered if I should be doing that when I do all the core exercises the PT gives me- I asked and she said no...)

I guess I will phone some of these placees to find out exactly what type of xrays they need. What kind did you bring?

If anyone has heard of that first place I mentioned- the one in Toronto, I would appreciate hearing about it- you can PM me if you like.


thanx :)

livingtwisted
08-21-2011, 09:34 PM
I guess I will phone some of these placees to find out exactly what type of xrays they need. What kind did you bring?

I just brought my latest x-rays from the orthopedist. Just one of the thoracic, and one of the lumbar -- not a whole series or anything. Actually, I think I had emailed them in advance to discuss my situation even before I decided to go. I saw Beatriz, who is the Northern California one you listed. I've also heard good things about the clinic in AZ. Good luck!

whatishappening
08-22-2011, 02:31 PM
Thank You Mehera! I am so glad you saw Beatrix- I was seriously considering her because of the location but I have no idea who's who so I feel very reassured now :)

Again, if anyone knows anything about the Toronto clinic I mentioned I would love to hear about it.

I guess my current xrays are ok then. I was thinking- maybe I should have derotated before having them done. But anyway, I will ask the clinics about that.

Thank you very much again. Mehera, I really appreciate it and Good luck to you too :)

gail govan
09-30-2011, 11:15 AM
Hi! This is my first post. I have congenital scolioisis, an S curve with a 60 degree lumbar curve. I'm 57 and had no problems till about 5 1/2 years ago. Problems began with sciatica that I could alleviate with yoga and swimming, but now it has gotten worse and the sciatica has turned into peroneal neuropathy and I have a lot of problems with my lower extremities, not directly with my back, because of L5/S1 impingement. I was thinking of seeing a Schroth therapist in NY and know this is designed for younger people, but talked to one person over 50 who found some success. Has anyone else tried this? Or I'm open to other ideas directed towards nerve impingement, other than yoga for scoliosis, which used to work for me, but now just made me worse. Thanks.

Hi lisazena, I have had this week my first schroth therapy appointment. I am 67 years old, and did not know I had scoliosis until after quite a few years of the MD's never figuring out why I was so crippled with pain and not taking the appropriate x-ray of a weight-bearing spine picture. But a chiropractor quickly made the diagnosis. You could have knocked me over with a feather. By that time I could no longer practice my profession (I am a dentist) and I was very impaired by pain. Mostly not in my back. After over a week, early this past spring, of being so weak in my legs and in so much pain that I could not climb my stairs, I re-visited all my failed stops over the previous years and requested a scoliosis workup, diagnosis, and plan, which I got that very day. My back is the most amazing mess. (I have always loved loking at x-rays.) At our age, (50'and 60's +) we can be complicated with arthritic changes in the spine. One of the back doctors called me an "elderly white woman." Okay. I thought of parents as elderly when they were in their nineties. He also had an expensive visit with me in which he never touched my back. I found out about the schroth therapy through a nurse navigator in my Medicare Insurance plan. They had just approved the inclusion of this treatment modality in the plan and she encouraged me to look into it. I was pretty desparate by that time because if I did not improve I was going to have to move someplace else. In the interval before my appointment, I found a book which if I had thousands of dollars I would give to every single person whom I know and love. It is called The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook by Clair Davies and his daughter Amber Davies. Through learning about these places in every muscle and how to release these very small points of unreleased contractions of the sarcomeres, I was out of pain and able to just get out of my van, stand up normally, and walk right off. CLimb the stairs again. And so forth. It ws utterly revolutionary.
the Scroth therapy people know what theya re doing. They know soliosis like nobody else. I am impressed with it already. I know that I must take responsibility for how I work with the program and I am sure it can return the spine towards normalcy. It is the imbalance of the muscles which bringthat spine down more and more and one thing follows upon another. When we are adults and this has been going on for longer than for the children and teenagers, I think we have our own set of problems, but I am thankful for every little piece of information that I have discovered along the way that I can use to help myself. It is a great, great blessing and I encourage you to look into it. It is when you find out all you can that you have the options to keep on keeping on!
I have been very sad that I was not diagnosed, becasue I am pretty sure that I cannot reclaim those lost years of my life and health and income. But going forward, and I hope that you too can have access to this Schroth program, there is more hope than before. I would suggest that you check into that book by Clair Davies too. I could not even have gotten to my appointment if it had not been for that book. Blessings.

gail govan
09-30-2011, 11:21 AM
Lisenzia,
You mention in your post that you have suffered form sciatica and so on. In the Trigger Point Therapy Workbook it tells how to deal with that. It is from the Piriformis muscle which gets a trigger point activated, shortens, can't relax, and gets wider with the shortening, and impinges on the sciatic nerve. Knowing how to release the contracted trigger point which is unbelievably easy to do, gets you back on the road again. I had blow-torch pain involving all the short hip rotators, the piriformis being the larger of the three, and for longer than I care to think about, and now I not only do not have that, but if it tries to return, I can get it stopped. If you see anyone with a tennis ball rolling it against their van door in the parking lot with their buttocks, it will probably be ME. I do not think this problem was related to my scoliosis in any way except for the muscle imbalance engendered by the unbalance of our whole body, but it sure inhibits living.

gail govan
09-30-2011, 11:33 AM
Hi Mehere, thanx for responding.

Well there is a chiropractic place outside of Toronto that I have found:
http://www.leasidechiro.com/

Also someone in California:
http://www.scoliosispt.net/

also the clinic in Arizona:
http://www.scoliosisrehab.com/

I have friends in Toronto I can stay with. Right now it is all about money. I am guessing $60/hr minimum (?) so $1200 plus travel and accomodation. That's why I wish there was someone here in Vancouver or Seattle. My issue is mostly rotational but I think it is very bad and getting worse and I have been getting painful radiulopathy that is also feeding into the rotation and long story but I really need to at least stop this from getting worse. So because it is not huge I am hoping I won't need as many hours. I have already figured out some exercises on my own but I get really scared playing with my own body and the physiotherapists I have seen won't touch it- one told me that with scolioiss you are just dragged along a never-ending path of adjustments and it is best just to leave it alone (!!!). The others- well 2 say just focus on muscle balance but that is trickier than they think, and one or 2 said basically all they can do is treat the pain. I SO do not believe that. If I could just find someone who has it themselves- these PT's really just don't seem to understand.

I believe in the Scroth because I accidentally came up with a couple of those exercises on my own without knowing they are Scroth (such as when a little boy in some old video footage places facecloths under his butt, chest and shoulder while laying flat- I have been doing that and have wondered and wondered if I should be doing that when I do all the core exercises the PT gives me- I asked and she said no...)

I guess I will phone some of these placees to find out exactly what type of xrays they need. What kind did you bring?

If anyone has heard of that first place I mentioned- the one in Toronto, I would appreciate hearing about it- you can PM me if you like.


thanx :)

There is a Scoliosis Rehab office in Stevens Point, Wisconsin. That is a little closer than Arizona to Toronto! I just went there for my first appointment. They required a referral form the physician and the x-rays in advance so the therapist could look at them and be ready for the patient. There are forms that you have to fill out also in advance of the appointment. The therapists have been to Europe (Barcelona) for the training. The therapist I saw had gone there with her son who has scoliosis and so she is extra-understanding.
In my pain experience I also have found the Trigger Point Therapy Workbook by Clair Davies and his daughter Amber to be the most/only helpful information for the muscle pain that everyone not just scoliosis patients suffer. The trigger point releasing information in that book, which shows you every single muscle and where the trigger points are and where they sponsor pain to, was the most single important thing I have found to relieve pain and reclaim function of muscles so long abused.

lisazena
09-30-2011, 11:44 AM
Hi Gail,
Thanks for your very interesting post.

I actually have since discovered that I don't have congenital scoliosis. I have idiopathic scoliosis and like you was blown away by the extent of it when I discovered it last year. i think that's common in middle age.

I have been beginning to think that what is causing me problems with my mobility is a muscular imbalance (since a CT myelogram showed degenerative changes, but nothing to explain possible nerve impingement) and have been thinking about going for trigger point injections. Maybe all I need is the book, but figuring out how to implement the book sounds potentially daunting. Obviously you didn't find it this way.

What are your curves? And you are very clear about how the trigger point therapy has helped you, but how about the Schroth? How long have you been doing it? I did see a Schroth therapist in NY and because I thought I had peroneal neuropathy (I don't) she didn't want to do anything with me other than standard therapy and she charged me anyway. And I had told her about the possible nerve issues ahead of time.

How long have you been working on the trigger points and Schroth?

I look forward to learning more. Thanks again.
Lisa

gail govan
10-01-2011, 11:11 AM
Hi Gail,
Thanks for your very interesting post.

I actually have since discovered that I don't have congenital scoliosis. I have idiopathic scoliosis and like you was blown away by the extent of it when I discovered it last year. i think that's common in middle age.

I have been beginning to think that what is causing me problems with my mobility is a muscular imbalance (since a CT myelogram showed degenerative changes, but nothing to explain possible nerve impingement) and have been thinking about going for trigger point injections. Maybe all I need is the book, but figuring out how to implement the book sounds potentially daunting. Obviously you didn't find it this way.

What are your curves? And you are very clear about how the trigger point therapy has helped you, but how about the Schroth? How long have you been doing it? I did see a Schroth therapist in NY and because I thought I had peroneal neuropathy (I don't) she didn't want to do anything with me other than standard therapy and she charged me anyway. And I had told her about the possible nerve issues ahead of time.

How long have you been working on the trigger points and Schroth?

I look forward to learning more. Thanks again.
Lisa

Hi Lisa,
What a wonderful thing that I found your reply. Here is what happened. (Answer to your question: Trigger points two weeeks, Schroth one visit so far.) (The trigger point book will answer questions about all sorts of neuropathies and pains and malfunctions. It will "blow you away") Implementing the book is done right in your hands because this very skillful writer tells and illustrates exactly how. It will not be daunting when you actually see his illustrations
I had given up on the physicians. One of them even wrote in my chart that I was paranoid which I took care of with a medical records correction but I was about out of my mind with pain. It changes you. It dehumanizes you. I was out of work and on disability from a policy my clinic carries on their doctors, and that was going to run out at the end of two years and I was at that two year point. I was talking with a friend in Washington State one day and she related how she had had a fall and had developed unrelenting sciatica so bad she could not stay in one position for more than a few minutes. Her daughters talked her into seeing the chiropractor they were going to and she went, and got out of pain quickly with that. He was a NUCCA chiropractor. (Do you mind a slightly long story?) So she on her computer located one of those and he is thirty miles from me and he is the one who diagnosed me with the scoliosis because from my symptoms he knew to take a full length weight bearing x-ray. Of all things, scoliosis was one of the two exemptions from getting the disability cut off and so I was "saved" by the x-ray. His x-ray was not as crisp of the workup I got in May when I went back to the clinic and rquested a full workup and their x-rays showed two old compression fractures in my thoracic spine and which I remember exactly when they happened, (and the same clinic did not find that either. I heard the bones break when I fell at the foot on mys tairs in the middle of the night one night.) Thankfully they continued the payments of my salary til I was 65. But ultimately this spring I faced off my chiropractor who is lots of fun and very dear to me, and I told him it seemed that he was thinking Utopia ("as long as you are alive you can heal") and I was experiencing Entropy! It was at the beginning of the spring, and I was so much weak and in pain from a relapse, that I could not climb my stairs. Could not sit or drive and then get up from the van or the chair and hold myself up because of pain and utter weakness of my leg muscles and hip. Buttock pain was so bad I could not sleep. I saw the other chiropractor in the office who is more gentle and who listens to you better, and he worked only on my sacro-iliac joint as I asked and released trigger points in the ilio-psoas muscle. I asked him for a book to read. He said his were not there. He showed me a poster with the muscles there, and the trigger points, and where the trigger points in the psoas muscle sponser pain, which is all down the front of the thigh. "Give me an author" I said. He replied, "Travell and Simmons". Home I went, and to Amazon. Volume one of Travell and Simons was $87.00 and volume two was more than that. I thought, "What if I get the wrong volume?" But there in addition to those two volumes, was Clair Davies' the Trigger Point therapy Workbook. I Bless the day I found that book. I was also throughout the summer going back to the clinic, requested a scoliosis workup and diagnosis and plan, and saw the PT who told me that scoliosis PT is a specialty on its own, and an OT who showed me a most wonrderful thing called a TheraCane which I came home and ordered. $29.95 and shipping free. Google it and you can find it. But it was not until about three weeks ago that my book came. It was here when I returned from having an mri of my thoracic spine, lumbar and sacral spine as the back doctor wanted and I was agreeable because I did want to know the amount of stenosis that is there just for the record. If the nerves are too impinged there is less hope of having a decent impulse to the poor muscles. So I open my book. Almost three hundred very pleasant pages. And I happened to open it to the place where the piriformis muscle is discussed. There it was, a picture with the trigger point. My place where the blowtorch starts up and progresses from there. I got so interiorly enraged that I told my husband I had just commmitted at least six mortal sins in under two minutes, becuase God forgive me I could just feel myself taking my book and going to that clinic and slamming every single one of the bozos who had just stared at me or through me when I went in there in so much pain. I am now over that terrible feeling and I know that they just did not know. Now to your question. In a couple of days I was essentially free of the buttocks pain. It took a little more study to deal with the leg problem of not being able to stand up and hold myself up when I would get up from a seated position. It was so relatively easy that I am still and will remain very enthusiastic. Davies has found that at least 75% of the pain that is out there all the time in people who have surgery including surgery to sever the piriformis muscle is from tiny over-contracted places int he muscles which get activated, and then stay contracted and if you know how to release these with a tiny massage stroke (he does not think that this press and hold works well and neither do I) then you can immediately relieve the muscle of the disabling pain and weakness. (One of the funny things he writes is "If the piriformis muscle is the source of your trouble you're lucky if you ever find out." I know full well what he means.
I actually called Maxine the nurse navigator at my insurance company and told her about this book. She had wanted to know how I was doing, as I had called her in my frustration and grief about all the time that had gone by and none of the docs had even made a diagnosis, and while I was telling her about the book she looked it up on Amazon. She said there were 388 five-star reviews of the book, and she said she was going to order one. (I added my five star review so then there would be 389). I thought that if every one in the huge offices building where she works had that book they could really cut their lost times off work and think of how much they would not have to pay out in insurance payments for futile, damaging surgeries which only disable a person more, and blah. I found this book to be so wonderful I sleep with it so I can refer to it and have not let go of it. A friend and I had lunch last Tuesday and she remarked right away when she saw me that I looked thinner and stood up straighter. Thank you Clair Davies. More than I can ever, ever say. I hope Lisa that you are able to get a copy of this book and that it can help you. It puts the ball into your hands, your park.
The Scroth therapy is another thing altogether, and I am going to make use of it as well. Anyone and everyone, scoliosis or not, can use the Davies information. The scoliosis is an added factor. My second appointment is coming up and I think that it would not be so helpful without the Davies book. I might not have been able to walk into their office if it had not been that I had released my tensor fascia latae muscle so I could stand up and walk. the exercises have already activated some trigger points in the uper body so I am glad I know what to do about them.
I hope this is not too long and rambling. I wonder how many of us are out there dragging around and not getting the help they need. I will keep you up to date on the Schroth therapy, but I am certain they really know what they are doing. You have to have someo0ne who respects and knows scoliosis for therapy. I am going to consider massage therapy too, and you will see why if you order that book. Gail

Bigbluefrog
10-31-2011, 10:30 PM
Thanks for sharing your story, my daughter is only 15 and we went to Steven's point for therapy, it was
One of the best things we ever did.

The back lengthened and increase in height, lung function, improved posture, visible and measurable
changes.

I would recommend seeing an orthopedic surgeon too. It is good to know all your options.

Schroth requires dedicated exercises, also a good massage therapist.

We continue to see a chiropractor, massage therapist, schroth PT, and see an orthopedic surgeon.

Soon she will be done wearing the brace....looking forward to that!

TAMZTOM
11-10-2011, 08:43 PM
Spinecor cannot be used in congenital scoliosis? It not seems so clear why. I think that curve also should to be reduced while using this brace.

Spinceor actually will prescribe the brace to those with congenital scoliosis--the patient or parent just has to sign a waiver. It's on their website.

Pooka1
11-10-2011, 09:16 PM
Spinceor actually will prescribe the brace to those with congenital scoliosis--the patient or parent just has to sign a waiver. It's on their website.

No I think the comment was really about whether Spinecor can possibly help even in principle with congenital scoliosis given there are malformed vertebrae. I think you may have misunderstood him to be asking whether they prescribe it in a case of congenital. I bet they would sell the brace to anyone at all provided they had the scratch.

GHD1959
12-30-2011, 11:58 AM
I am a 52 year old male with a 55 degree mid thorasic curve and I have had severe sacroilliac pain for years. I have tried so many things with no luck. No one will address the Sacroilliac pain, but I didn't know that the Schroth therapy was less than 15 minutes from my house. I don't know what to do anymore, do you think the Schroth method is worth the money?

TOscoliosis
01-03-2012, 10:13 PM
I am a 52 year old male with a 55 degree mid thorasic curve and I have had severe sacroilliac pain for years. I have tried so many things with no luck. No one will address the Sacroilliac pain, but I didn't know that the Schroth therapy was less than 15 minutes from my house. I don't know what to do anymore, do you think the Schroth method is worth the money?

It looks like that's a "no" on anyone having tried the Schroth Method on this Forum. I'm surprised. I thought it was one of the more respected and well-known approaches.

I'm guessing that you're close to Scoliosis Rehab Inc. in Phoenix, Arizona. They also have a clinic in Wisconsin which I'm thinking of going to. The cost information that I received was that a 15 minute 1 on 1 session costs $65.00. If I go to the one week intensive that would mean paying $5200.00 with whatever deductions for insurance if applicable. I wouldn't want to comment on whether it's worth it without having experienced it myself. As you're so close you can go for single visits, which means you can get acquainted with their methods without a big financial commitment. If you visit them I'd be very interested to know how it goes for you. Please keep in touch on the Forum or message me privately if you'd prefer.

My personal opinion is that your sacroiliac pain and scoliosis can and should be dealt with at the same time. You have one whole body, and although this expression is kind of overused: it's all connected. I am a teacher of the Alexander Technique and a practitioner of Structural Integration. These are methods which I've used to very good effect with my own scoliosis and old pain issues. No more pain, and my body is unwinding in exciting ways. My pics are attached to this message. I did some looking around and there are people in Phoenix who do these modalities. Both approaches would work on your sacroiliac pain and help with your scoliosis at the same time. If you'd like me to message you with some people near you let me know.

GHD1959
01-03-2012, 10:36 PM
Those pics are amazing as far as the difference in your back.

GHD1959
01-04-2012, 10:03 PM
Hi,

Thanks for the reply, I don't have $5200.00 for Schroth at this time, but I need to call them back to check on my Insurance. I would be interested in anyone you reccommend in my area, I don't know what to do anymore. I had found a sacrolilliac surgeon who does a method called Si-Bone which is supposed to conquer the sacro problem ,but they don't take my insurance and no one ever addresses the sacro pain, just the scoliosis and its usually have surgery, or go to PT which does nothing. Please send me the names if you would be so kind.

Thanks, Gregg

TOscoliosis
01-04-2012, 10:26 PM
Absolutely! The info is on its way.

Pooka1
01-05-2012, 06:39 AM
@GHD1959,

Schroth = PT. If you think PT doesn't work then you don't want to drop $5200 on Schroth.

3sisters
01-10-2012, 06:02 PM
Firstly; let me start by saying that I am optimistic, an adult, and going to the Katharina Schroth Klinik in Bad Sobernheim, Germany, for four weeks. If anyone has any experience to share, I would appreciate it.
If anyone disagrees with my approach, PLEASE don't post it here after my comment because I am going and I don't want to carry or hear negativity. I appreciate your right to disagree, but I don't want a send-off with negative feelings or pessimism for us, please! I want this to be as positive experience as possible for me and my daughter. So many opinions and hopes. This is ours! I've made it up to 49 degrees or so with a good quality of life but would really like to stop progressing, and give my daughter a better opportunity than I had.
After a creepingly progressive scoliosis curve, and a new, big "S" curve in my 12 yr old daughter, we are off to learn and improve together. She will get her Cheneau brace in about two weeks. We start our in-patient klinik experience on February 8th. Luckily, we live in Germany so the transportation is not an issue (we live about an hour and a half away.) I plan on sharing our new information with all who are interested.
By the way, for those interested in ballet, my daughter is a dancer with six years experience and hard-earned wonderful flexibility and spine suppleness. I anticipate this will help make her a better patient than I!
We are only going to the clinic for four weeks (the minimum recommended time!) but I am starting my daughter with four personal physical therapy sessions (one each of the preceding weeks before our session) with a Katharina Schroth trained therapist to get us a start on familiarizing ourselves with our new plan. Stay tuned for reports on our visit. Anyone else going or has been there?

LindaRacine
01-10-2012, 08:19 PM
Firstly; let me start by saying that I am optimistic, an adult, and going to the Katharina Schroth Klinik in Bad Sobernheim, Germany, for four weeks. If anyone has any experience to share, I would appreciate it.
If anyone disagrees with my approach, PLEASE don't post it here after my comment because I am going and I don't want to carry or hear negativity. I appreciate your right to disagree, but I don't want a send-off with negative feelings or pessimism for us, please! I want this to be as positive experience as possible for me and my daughter. So many opinions and hopes. This is ours! I've made it up to 49 degrees or so with a good quality of life but would really like to stop progressing, and give my daughter a better opportunity than I had.
After a creepingly progressive scoliosis curve, and a new, big "S" curve in my 12 yr old daughter, we are off to learn and improve together. She will get her Cheneau brace in about two weeks. We start our in-patient klinik experience on February 8th. Luckily, we live in Germany so the transportation is not an issue (we live about an hour and a half away.) I plan on sharing our new information with all who are interested.
By the way, for those interested in ballet, my daughter is a dancer with six years experience and hard-earned wonderful flexibility and spine suppleness. I anticipate this will help make her a better patient than I!
We are only going to the clinic for four weeks (the minimum recommended time!) but I am starting my daughter with four personal physical therapy sessions (one each of the preceding weeks before our session) with a Katharina Schroth trained therapist to get us a start on familiarizing ourselves with our new plan. Stay tuned for reports on our visit. Anyone else going or has been there?

Boy, asking people not to post anything negative is like dangling a bit carrot.

I wish you the best of luck. All I can tell you is that there is NO long-term study showing that Schroth had any positive effect. I hope you can tell us, in 10-20 years, whether your daughter has avoided further treatment. Unfortunately, even if she doesn't need treatment, it doesn't mean that Schroth had any effect, as it's certainly possible that doing nothing would have given her the result.

Regards,
Linda

TOscoliosis
01-10-2012, 11:40 PM
Firstly; let me start by saying that I am optimistic, an adult, and going to the Katharina Schroth Klinik in Bad Sobernheim, Germany, for four weeks. If anyone has any experience to share, I would appreciate it.
If anyone disagrees with my approach, PLEASE don't post it here after my comment because I am going and I don't want to carry or hear negativity. I appreciate your right to disagree, but I don't want a send-off with negative feelings or pessimism for us, please! I want this to be as positive experience as possible for me and my daughter. So many opinions and hopes. This is ours! I've made it up to 49 degrees or so with a good quality of life but would really like to stop progressing, and give my daughter a better opportunity than I had.
After a creepingly progressive scoliosis curve, and a new, big "S" curve in my 12 yr old daughter, we are off to learn and improve together. She will get her Cheneau brace in about two weeks. We start our in-patient klinik experience on February 8th. Luckily, we live in Germany so the transportation is not an issue (we live about an hour and a half away.) I plan on sharing our new information with all who are interested.
By the way, for those interested in ballet, my daughter is a dancer with six years experience and hard-earned wonderful flexibility and spine suppleness. I anticipate this will help make her a better patient than I!
We are only going to the clinic for four weeks (the minimum recommended time!) but I am starting my daughter with four personal physical therapy sessions (one each of the preceding weeks before our session) with a Katharina Schroth trained therapist to get us a start on familiarizing ourselves with our new plan. Stay tuned for reports on our visit. Anyone else going or has been there?

Good luck at the Schroth Clinic! I hope you and your daughter learn a lot and have success with your scoliosis. Success is certainly possible. Although I haven't done the Schroth Method I have read their research and their book on 3 dimensional treatment. I had a set of X-rays taken this December and I received the radiologist's report today. My thoracic curve was 42 degrees in 1996, 29 degrees in 2003, and now 27 degrees. I plan to go for X-rays again in two years. My goal is to get my thoracic curve beneath 20 degrees. I'm looking forward to reading about your experience on this thread!

Two X-ray images:
1177
1178
Photographic image:
1179

3sisters
01-11-2012, 04:58 AM
Boy, asking people not to post anything negative is like dangling a bit carrot.



I don't think so. I think we want to lift up each other and find support and share information. Someone will want to know what I experience, just like I want to know what others are going through and where I might find myself one day. Or decisions we each might have to make one day for ourselves or a loved one.

Besides, even someone who chooses a different path (or doesn't have another options for their situation) can grow a lot by knowing what else is going on, and maybe learn something that might help in the future. I knew NOTHING 25 years ago. (my doctor didn't either:)

Pooka1
01-11-2012, 06:54 AM
I don't think so. I think we want to lift up each other and find support and share information. Someone will want to know what I experience, just like I want to know what others are going through and where I might find myself one day. Or decisions we each might have to make one day for ourselves or a loved one.

Besides, even someone who chooses a different path (or doesn't have another options for their situation) can grow a lot by knowing what else is going on, and maybe learn something that might help in the future. I knew NOTHING 25 years ago. (my doctor didn't either:)

Those are good points but you have to realize that Schroth has been around for over 90 years. I am told it is still a fringe treatment even in Germany. Weiss, K. Schroth's grandson openly opined in 2009 about whether PT like Schroth works. After all those years and with him at the helm for about 10 of those years with some 30,000 patients in just that time. He is not a surgeon despite what resumes you might see online but is a trained researcher and can write up research results competently. Him not being a surgeon explains his interest in conservative therapies and why he also does bracing in addition to PT. Weiss is no longer at the Schroth clinic by the way.

And surgery goes on as ever in Germany, almost as if Schroth didn't exist.

rohrer01
01-11-2012, 08:16 AM
Good luck at the Schroth Clinic! I hope you and your daughter learn a lot and have success with your scoliosis. Success is certainly possible. Although I haven't done the Schroth Method I have read their research and their book on 3 dimensional treatment. I had a set of X-rays taken this December and I received the radiologist's report today. My thoracic curve was 42 degrees in 1996, 29 degrees in 2003, and now 27 degrees. I plan to go for X-rays again in two years. My goal is to get my thoracic curve beneath 20 degrees. I'm looking forward to reading about your experience on this thread!

Two X-ray images:
1177
1178
Photographic image:
1179

TOscoliosis,
I looked at all of your images. Your appearance is certainly better and your lumbar x-rays appear to show quite a curve reduction. However, the thoracic "lines" mean nothing if you are trying to measure a curve. You have lines that are clearly not the endpoints of the curve and actually encompass the S-shape feature within a supposed curve. It really appears that your thoracic curve has increased. That's not to say that you aren't making progress, as the lumbar looks really good, as I already mentioned. I think, though, that sometimes we scoli's give and take with our curves. For example, I "look" much more balanced than I did even 10 years ago, as I used to have a very elevated left shoulder. My appearance is deceiving, as both curves have gotten bigger, especially the lower curve. That increase in the lower curve is what brought my shoulder down. I'm not trying to be a downer, as you clearly look better in the newer photos. I'm just cautioning you not to be deceived by appearances. Exercise is always good for us. If you feel better and look better, then that improves your quality of life, which is all some of us can hope to ask for. Are you doing Schroth or a different program? Whichever, I wish you the best.

Scratch that last question. I just reread your post which clearly says that you are NOT doing Schroth.
I've actually considered Schroth just to improve muscle strenth. But I would have no further expectations. Muscle strength is a very good thing, though. It reduces pain and improves appearance.

TAMZTOM
01-11-2012, 09:00 AM
If anyone has any experience to share, I would appreciate it. ... I don't want to carry or hear negativity. ... I plan on sharing our new information with all who are interested. ...my daughter is a dancer with six years experience and hard-earned wonderful flexibility and spine suppleness. ... We are only going to the clinic for four weeks (the minimum recommended time!) but I am starting my daughter with four personal physical therapy sessions...with a Katharina Schroth trained therapist to get us a start on familiarizing ourselves with our new plan. Stay tuned for reports on our visit.

Hi 3sisters

Your offer to share your experience is generous. It will help many to make choices, refine technique, achieve more correction and appearance. Many negative posts betray a need to justify previous decisions, irrationality and often complete ignorance; others evince lack of respect and incomprehension of how important being positive is to achieving correction. That many patients have corrected is fact; I'd hazard that most had positive attitudes. To spout negativity betrays weakess. Feeding negative posters with long argument is like responding to spam--best policy is to ignore or swiftly dismiss the negative and focus. Enough...time to be productive!

My own daughter has prepared for ballet classes for the last few weeks. She does her first proper class this evening. I am aware that some Schroth principles proscribe some ballet moves: for example, a left side bend would "feed" a right side thoracic curve; maintaining range of movement, however, is important for correction, stability and body symmetry. I believe Schroth and such ballet moves can be reconciled: Schroth seeks to entrench a non-scoliotic posture and over-correction of extant misalignment and curve--this requires re-jigged proprioception, erasing the scoliotic subconscious. This is necessary to at least remove the postural percentage of most curves. (Progression can be a "vicious cycle"; removing the postural percentage can induce a "virtuous cycle", further correction. It can result in patients' curves dropping below the "progression threshold".) Schroth exercise can RAISE the progression threshold (so can Dobomed, SEAS, Torso Rotation, Pilates, Yoga...and ballet). You win both ways. Schroth can increase muscular strength and proprioception for most hours per day; ballet can increase flexibility, strength and cardiovascular health during a relatively small portion of the day--i.e., not enough to worsen curves, but actually enough to build a body capable of correction. Great example...Wendy Whelan, world class ballerina with moderate curves (I think she may have a 35 degree thoracic curve).

Re. the 4 visits before the intensive course
When we did Schroth in London, there was a 17 yr old girl (Riser 5) attending (mother there too to learn); she had T55, L27 curves; she did 4 one day sessions and read the book before attending the intensive course. Her ability to over-correct, maintain corrected posture throughout the long days and her IMPROVEMENT six months later is inspiring. The mother and daughter team were light years ahead of Tamzin and me. Your preparation is impeccable. We will undoubtedly learn much from you and your daughter.
4 weeks is sufficient in my opinion. Even though the original Schroth patients did 3 months, with a positive attitude and the determination to continue exercising after the clinic, you will both be well equipped to run a great race. :-)


ROHRER
I've actually considered Schroth just to improve muscle strenth. But I would have no further expectations. Muscle strength is a very good thing, though. It reduces pain and improves appearance.
Worthwhile goals, Rohrer. This thread would benefit if you do the course and give you usual, objective, respectful and considered feedback.


LindaRacine
Boy, asking people not to post anything negative is like dangling a bit carrot.
What type of person revels in being negative!


LindaRacine
Unfortunately, even if she doesn't need treatment, it doesn't mean that Schroth had any effect, as it's certainly possible that doing nothing would have given her the result.
Despite requiring scientific precision for studies showing exercise therapy works, this poster drops their standard to "certainly possible" to dismiss exercise based correction. PS: a repeat surgery poster who 'in all likelihood' (:-))is quite sedentary.


TOscoliosis
Great post by TOscoliosis, i.e., someone who has corrected, improved his physical appearance and is positive.


Pooka
Schroth has been around for over 90 years.
I am told it is still a fringe treatment even in Germany.
30,000 patients.
He is not a surgeon.
Him not being a surgeon explains his interest in conservative therapies and why he also does bracing in addition to PT.
And surgery goes on as ever in Germany, almost as if Schroth didn't exist.
90 years and still going! Fantastic. Suggests there's something in it!
Scoliosis surgery has been around since the 19th C; big bucks involved, no wonder the medical establishment tries to denounce everything non-surgical. Especially with the repeat business surgeons get! (I believe that for many patients, surgery is the only answer; I respect the courage of those who've had it done.)
"Fringe treatment": it is a tough task to use exercise to correct scoliosis, it will always be only the few who can succeed, so being fringe is similar to saying only a few people make it to the top. That Weiss is not a surgeon matters not a jot; personally, I too suspect Weiss of being very interested in making bucks, which, ironically, makes him quite surgeon-like. :-) (That was facetious, apologies.)


To the poster: great to have you on board.

Pooka1
01-11-2012, 11:24 AM
Tom,

My comments pertain to straight AIS. That has seen the most research by far as far as I know. My comments are not known to be necessarily relevant to Marfans scoliosis, C/SM scoliosis, other syndromic scoliosis, etc. or any NON-straight AIS scoliosis and shouldn't be mapped on to them.

According to that one Marfans bracing paper, apparently nothing will overcome bracing failure for those certain Marfans cases for example or that is the impression I get from reading it.

TAMZTOM
01-11-2012, 11:41 AM
Tom,
According to that one Marfans bracing paper, apparently nothing will overcome bracing failure for those certain Marfans cases for example or that is the impression I get from reading it.

Hi Sharon
Flying out the door to Tamzin's ballet class--an hour drive--and just finished Scarlett training run. No time.
I know zilch about Marfans, so can't comment. I wonder, though, if the muscular issues and bracing failure tell us more about AIS, viz., bracing alone has limited success, must work the muscles too.
I really do wish many more potential and past Schroth patient lurkers on this forum would chip in re. their Schroth experiences. I really hope Rohrer will go for it; I know 3sisters will give it 100% and her daughter will excel. It'd be a great live study RIGHT HERE IN THIS THREAD TO follow a few kids and adults through the next few years. What great research potential. Forget past studies. What an opportunity for a researcher!!! (Hint, hint.)

Pooka1
01-11-2012, 12:55 PM
However, the thoracic "lines" mean nothing if you are trying to measure a curve. You have lines that are clearly not the endpoints of the curve and actually encompass the S-shape feature within a supposed curve. It really appears that your thoracic curve has increased.

Because the top yellow line is clearly not drawn at the most tilted vertebra, I assumed it was to track the clavicle tilt although maybe not. The bottom line does not appear to be drawn at the most tilted vertebrae either in at least some of the radiographs. And it's an interesting question if the nice correction in the non-structural lumbar affects the curve in the structural thoracic in terms of selecting end vertebra and if it changed. There was some question of end vertebra changing in Hawes' case for example.

I would like to hear what a surgeon measures for those three radiographs. I played around with it, drew the lines and damned if I could then find a protractor! I have to wait until my two young associates return from school so they can clue me in as to where the protractor is hiding. The 2003 curve has progressed from the 1996 one but only by maybe 5* just eyeballing it. The 2011 curve has progressed from the 2003 curve at the top but the straightening of the lumbar complicates things it seems. That curve may be similar in magnitude to the 2003 curve only because of the lumbar straightening. All those T curves are in the low-mid 40* range in my unlettered, mealy-mouthed, lay opinion. :-)

But it is fascinating to think that straightening the non-structural lumbar may slow or even halt progression of a structural T curve. Maybe the approach of working on the non-structural curve is more effective that addressing the structural one.

Pooka1
01-11-2012, 01:04 PM
Hi Sharon
Flying out the door to Tamzin's ballet class--an hour drive--and just finished Scarlett training run. No time.
I know zilch about Marfans, so can't comment. I wonder, though, if the muscular issues and bracing failure tell us more about AIS, viz., bracing alone has limited success, must work the muscles too.

That's a rational explanation. I would not be shocked if bracing + PT in a way that hasn't been studied yet was shown to work during the growth spurt because most studies to date are a la carte - one or the other but not both. That's one reason why you and Tamzin are in uncharted territory which is huge PLUS in this game where there is some negative evidence in straight AIS. That and because it is not straight AIS but C/SM. Even I, the arch skeptic of bracing, might be persuaded to try bracing and PT for C/SM because I think there is enough known about how C/SM differs from straight AIS. They exclude those cases for studies for a reason. You essentially do have to create your own study and literature for that.


I really do wish many more potential and past Schroth patient lurkers on this forum would chip in re. their Schroth experiences. I really hope Rohrer will go for it; I know 3sisters will give it 100% and her daughter will excel. It'd be a great live study RIGHT HERE IN THIS THREAD TO follow a few kids and adults through the next few years. What great research potential. Forget past studies. What an opportunity for a researcher!!! (Hint, hint.)

I wish more people would report results period. That's what people want to know. We had that one thread on Clear chiro which I think will inform other parents about whether they want to try it.

TAMZTOM
01-11-2012, 02:54 PM
But it is fascinating to think that straightening the non-structural lumbar may slow or even halt progression of a structural T curve. Maybe the approach of working on the non-structural curve is more effective that addressing the structural one.

A point definitely worth emphasising Sharon, nice one. I rapped on in another thread about Tamzin's "vertebral stack" above the lumbar apex becoming more perpendicular, due to a correction LC; bend a straw (a TC) and hold it more and less perpendicular; more provides the TC with greater support, i.e., raises the progression threshold. IMO.

Ballet Mom
01-11-2012, 03:20 PM
Firstly; let me start by saying that I am optimistic, an adult, and going to the Katharina Schroth Klinik in Bad Sobernheim, Germany, for four weeks. If anyone has any experience to share, I would appreciate it.
If anyone disagrees with my approach, PLEASE don't post it here after my comment because I am going and I don't want to carry or hear negativity. I appreciate your right to disagree, but I don't want a send-off with negative feelings or pessimism for us, please! I want this to be as positive experience as possible for me and my daughter. So many opinions and hopes. This is ours! I've made it up to 49 degrees or so with a good quality of life but would really like to stop progressing, and give my daughter a better opportunity than I had.
After a creepingly progressive scoliosis curve, and a new, big "S" curve in my 12 yr old daughter, we are off to learn and improve together. She will get her Cheneau brace in about two weeks. We start our in-patient klinik experience on February 8th. Luckily, we live in Germany so the transportation is not an issue (we live about an hour and a half away.) I plan on sharing our new information with all who are interested.
By the way, for those interested in ballet, my daughter is a dancer with six years experience and hard-earned wonderful flexibility and spine suppleness. I anticipate this will help make her a better patient than I!
We are only going to the clinic for four weeks (the minimum recommended time!) but I am starting my daughter with four personal physical therapy sessions (one each of the preceding weeks before our session) with a Katharina Schroth trained therapist to get us a start on familiarizing ourselves with our new plan. Stay tuned for reports on our visit. Anyone else going or has been there?

Good luck to you and your daughter. I agree that the flexibility of the spine that is developed in serious ballet study is a great advantage in bracing and the continuing development of strength in the back is great for any spine. All my daughter's orthopedists agreed that ballet would be good for her.

Ballet Mom
01-11-2012, 03:23 PM
Those are good points but you have to realize that Schroth has been around for over 90 years. I am told it is still a fringe treatment even in Germany. Weiss, K. Schroth's grandson openly opined in 2009 about whether PT like Schroth works. After all those years and with him at the helm for about 10 of those years with some 30,000 patients in just that time. He is not a surgeon despite what resumes you might see online but is a trained researcher and can write up research results competently. Him not being a surgeon explains his interest in conservative therapies and why he also does bracing in addition to PT. Weiss is no longer at the Schroth clinic by the way.

And surgery goes on as ever in Germany, almost as if Schroth didn't exist.

How have you decided that Dr. Weiss, MD is not a surgeon? He states it regularly on his website and his published research. Are you suggesting that he is fraudulently identifying himself as such? That is a very serious accusation.

Please let us know your inside source for information. I would be very interested in knowing if he is not what he claims to be.

LindaRacine
01-11-2012, 03:24 PM
I don't think so. I think we want to lift up each other and find support and share information. Someone will want to know what I experience, just like I want to know what others are going through and where I might find myself one day. Or decisions we each might have to make one day for ourselves or a loved one.

Besides, even someone who chooses a different path (or doesn't have another options for their situation) can grow a lot by knowing what else is going on, and maybe learn something that might help in the future. I knew NOTHING 25 years ago. (my doctor didn't either:)

We all want to know what you experience.

I think you're making an argument to hear the bad as well as the good, though you say you don't want to hear anything negative.

TAMZTOM
01-11-2012, 03:31 PM
...most studies to date are a la carte - one or the other but not both.
3sisters clocked onto that with rapidity; I believe she's using a Cheneau plus exercise.
I think Weiss is big on promoting both (fingers in both pies, although that doesn't detract from the concept). I've also seen evidence of attempts to research different types of exercise in-brace, e.g., increasing force in-brace with directed breathing, rotation, etc. Also the Europeans--UK not included--promote SpineCor's own PT program in addition to wearing the brace. Mr Mills (UK Schroth) watched Tamzin 'do some moves' last week and agreed that it'd all help. He specifically said Schroth was helpful and complimented the brace. Anecdotal, but food for thought.


That's one reason why you and Tamzin are in uncharted territory which is huge PLUS in this game where there is some negative evidence in straight AIS. That and because it is not straight AIS but C/SM.
I'd certainly be worried just slapping a brace on Tamzin and hoping for the best. In fact, I'm worried with her in one and have redoubled our efforts on the exercise front for that reason. We're also tailoring things so that she works in-brace to compliment it (e.g., Pilates and ballet class tonight--just returned).
As I said elsewhere, two surgeons and some orthotists have 'opined' that having C/SM doesn't remove the scoliosis from the AIS classification. Their opinion is of little worth.


Even I, the arch skeptic of bracing, might be persuaded to try bracing and PT for C/SM because I think there is enough known about how C/SM differs from straight AIS. They exclude those cases for studies for a reason. You essentially do have to create your own study and literature for that.
Even if C/SM is causative for scoliosis, what works is likely to work also for some AIS. Even chuck in some genetic growth plate asymmetry unbridled theory--it can still work (transient genetic aetiology) by reversing the progressive cycle. I haven't come across anything that definitely differentiates scoliosis with concomitant C/SM for AIS; that why the two surgeons still classify Tamzin as AIS and, regardless of their opinion, why I treat Tamzin as if she has AIS. (PS: actually, as Rohrer has explained often, Tamzin was undoubtedly JIS, just diagnosed late.)

After our experiences with bracing, I could easily have challenged you for that "arch sceptic" title! I won't though--just have to ensure that the damn thing is doing what is says on the tin!


I wish more people would report results period. That's what people want to know.
Seconded!

LindaRacine
01-11-2012, 03:33 PM
Despite requiring scientific precision for studies showing exercise therapy works, this poster drops their standard to "certainly possible" to dismiss exercise based correction. PS: a repeat surgery poster who 'in all likelihood' (:-))is quite sedentary.



Up to the time my curves progressed to being very painful, I was anything but sedentary.

If anyone is negative, I think it might be you.

No one is suggesting that exercise programs not be tried. We only want practitioners to be accountable. Would you see it my way if I were selling snake oil, and claiming that it worked because my daughter's curve didn't increase? Or, would you want to see a study showing what happened to the kids who didn't get snake oil?

LindaRacine
01-11-2012, 03:35 PM
I would like to hear what a surgeon measures for those three radiographs. I

Since they're not full spine x-rays, most specialists would not even want to measure them.

TAMZTOM
01-11-2012, 03:36 PM
Up the time my curves progressed to being very painful, I was anything but sedentary. If anyone is negative, I think it might be you.

I agree, apologies for the sedentary comment.

Pooka1
01-11-2012, 03:39 PM
Even if C/SM is causative for scoliosis, what works is likely to work also for some AIS. Even chuck in some genetic growth plate asymmetry unbridled theory--it can still work (transient genetic aetiology) by reversing the progressive cycle. I haven't come across anything that definitely differentiates scoliosis with concomitant C/SM for AIS; that why the two surgeons still classify Tamzin as AIS ad, regardless of their opinion, treat Tamzin as if she has AIS.

Our surgeon also classifies Marfans scoliosis as still being AIS even though it is known to behave differently to bracing. When there is some evidence scoliosis type "A" behaves differently from type "B" to the point they exclude type "B" from studies of Type "A" then that is good ground to think they should not be lumped. Call me crazy. :-)

That's why I am trying to use the construct "straight AIS" even though surgeons do seem to include other types in the AIS category.

Pooka1
01-11-2012, 03:42 PM
Since they're not full spine x-rays, most specialists would not even want to measure them.

Ah good point. I think that might clear up the struggle I was having with possibly changed end vertebrae. But I think TO has the full radiographs and just cuts them in half to show the L and T curves separately. Maybe he would post the full radiographs.

TAMZTOM
01-11-2012, 03:43 PM
That's why I am trying to use the construct "straight AIS" even though surgeons do seem to include other types in the AIS category.
I believe that type of rigour can yield enlightening information. With a paucity of solid research though, we're marooned to extrapolate...or progress!

TAMZTOM
01-11-2012, 03:51 PM
I agree that the flexibility of the spine that is developed in serious ballet study is a great advantage in bracing and the continuing development of strength in the back is great for any spine.

Hi Ballet Mom
It's that flexibility increase, not engendered by Schroth on its own, that has persuaded me to start Tamzin at ballet. She loved her first class this evening. She's going along tomorrow night--the teacher wants to put her in a GRADE 4 class, whatever that means? Two Royal ballet school juniors at the class tonight really fired Tamzin's competitive juices.

We did 30 minutes of Pilates beforehand. Instructor was very knowledgeable on scoliosis. Explained opening up the intervertebral disks posteriorly very well; if the anterior overgrowth (genetic or caused by asymmetric growth plate pressure) theories hold water, addressing that spine flexibility asymmetry is crucial. She also gave me a humbling lecture on physiology--I wanted to take notes!

Pooka1
01-11-2012, 04:02 PM
She also gave me a humbling lecture on physiology--I wanted to take notes!

Yeah I wish I took more biology in college or at least have taken anatomy and physiology. Talk about those subjects on this forum numbs my mind. :-)

rohrer01
01-11-2012, 04:46 PM
The basics should have been covered in BIO 101, weren't you all required to at least take that?

TAMZTOM
01-11-2012, 04:57 PM
The basics should have been covered in BIO 101, weren't you all required to at least take that?

When I was schooled in Scotland, we didn't even have pencils, just carved symbols on trees with our dirks.

rohrer01
01-11-2012, 05:35 PM
When I was schooled in Scotland, we didn't even have pencils, just carved symbols on trees with our dirks.

You're a caveman, and yet you still have young children? You must look REALLY young for your age! LOL

TAMZTOM
01-11-2012, 05:40 PM
You're a caveman, and yet you still have young children? You must look REALLY young for your age! LOL

Nice one! As William Wallace reputably said, "Yes, I'm a savage."

Ballet Mom
01-11-2012, 06:49 PM
Hi Ballet Mom
It's that flexibility increase, not engendered by Schroth on its own, that has persuaded me to start Tamzin at ballet. She loved her first class this evening. She's going along tomorrow night--the teacher wants to put her in a GRADE 4 class, whatever that means? Two Royal ballet school juniors at the class tonight really fired Tamzin's competitive juices.

We did 30 minutes of Pilates beforehand. Instructor was very knowledgeable on scoliosis. Explained opening up the intervertebral disks posteriorly very well; if the anterior overgrowth (genetic or caused by asymmetric growth plate pressure) theories hold water, addressing that spine flexibility asymmetry is crucial. She also gave me a humbling lecture on physiology--I wanted to take notes!

Usually level 8 is the highest level in a ballet school with the most advanced dancers, although if you're doing RAD, I'm not sure that's the same. Most dancers never make it to level 8. If there are two actual students from the Royal Ballet school still home for vacation, your daughter is surely going to a good ballet school. Good for Tamzin, hope she has fun.

It's great that you've found someone knowledgable about scoliosis for Pilates for your daughter. That will hopefully help her. It will certainly strengthen her!

Pooka1
01-11-2012, 07:35 PM
The basics should have been covered in BIO 101, weren't you all required to at least take that?

I took the standard first year bio sequence with lab, the one the majors take though it was not my major. I don't recall if there was much human anatomy or physiology. Of course that was a million years ago which would be 999,994 years before the Big Bang. ;-)

TAMZTOM
01-12-2012, 10:23 AM
If there are two actual students from the Royal Ballet school still home for vacation, your daughter is surely going to a good ballet school. Good for Tamzin, hope she has fun.
We're back there tonight, I'll find out exactly the status of those two girls. Thanks for the good wishes for Tamz.


It's great that you've found someone knowledgable about scoliosis for Pilates for your daughter. That will hopefully help her. It will certainly strengthen her!
Interestingly, despite having an Amazonian washboard abdomen and capable of staggering feats of abdomenal strength, Tamzin struggled with one particular exercise--the Pilates instructor honed right into an area of weakness that I've not before appreciated. Very helpful as everything right around the middle (abs, gluts, obliques, TA, QL, psoas, etc.) all act to 'brace' the lumbar spine. One weakness can affect the entire support system. Salutary to meet this woman who knows her stuff.

TAMZTOM
01-12-2012, 04:30 PM
If there are two actual students from the Royal Ballet school still home for vacation, your daughter is surely going to a good ballet school.
Back from class again, spoke to the girls' mothers. They are both Royal Ballet school Junior Associates. This means they do every weekend sessions and vacations with the RBS and are in the pipeline, so to speak.

3sisters
01-13-2012, 12:27 PM
We had our first pre-treatment today. That is, part of the series before we depart for our month long venture. The therapist suggested two times/week before we go, which will be beneficial, I'm sure. We'll get a few extra learning sessions in before the intensive. Eleven more days until we get the Cheneau brace. Erin is in SUCH a growth spurt I agonize every time a friend says, "Oh, look how much she's grown since Christmas!" or some other recent date. augh. I will be able to rejoice in all of her growth AFTER January 24th!

TAMZTOM
01-13-2012, 01:24 PM
We had our first pre-treatment today.
Excellent. Interested in what they focused on. At our introduction, the therapist battered straight into exercising, almost assuming Tamzin knew everything. Directed breathing (Rotational Angular Breathing/RAB is crucial; we'd have been more prepared having that explained. The corkscrew rotations (opposite thoracic and pelvic would have also helped. I'm sure that the Germans did a much better prep session with you and the clinic itself has a great reputation. I'm Eager to hear how they proceeded today.



Eleven more days until we get the Cheneau brace. Erin is in SUCH a growth spurt I agonize every time a friend says, "Oh, look how much she's grown since Christmas!" or some other recent date. augh. I will be able to rejoice in all of her growth AFTER January 24th!
I know the relief you crave! Just be careful that Erin doesn't SOLELY rely on it, but works with it. My wife and I are STILL discussing whether to use a rigid brace (e.g., Cheneau) at night, the SpineCor in the the day. Again, we're eager to hear how Erin gets on. (Tamzin is a year and a half younger.)

Pooka1
01-13-2012, 01:32 PM
My wife and I are STILL discussing whether to use a rigid brace (e.g., Cheneau) at night, the SpineCor in the the day.

A member here, Michael1960 (I think that's right), is doing that with his daughter. She has JIS. He wrote some every cogent posts here and elsewhere, exquisitely and tightly reasoned. Made mincemeat of some chiros. I hope he pops back sometimes to say how it's going.

TAMZTOM
01-13-2012, 02:47 PM
A member here, Michael1960 (I think that's right), is doing that with his daughter. She has JIS. He wrote some every cogent posts here and elsewhere, exquisitely and tightly reasoned.

Cheers Sharon, I'll look him up. I've read about quite a few parents in the US doing the double brace deal. Previously, I was concerned about interfering with the SpineCor's dynamics, but, as we become more familiar with that, the issues are fading.

PS: If Tamzin had been checked 8 yrs old, they'd have classified her as JIS. Moot issue really, as I doubt there's any substantial difference between AIS and JIS, except maturity. Arbitrary line in the sand.

TAMZTOM
01-13-2012, 03:01 PM
Just looked him up Sharon, his last post Jan 2011. Informative post: Boston at night, SpineCor in day, substantial correction at 15 mnths. He also used a chiropractor, I see. We'll give it another seven weeks with Tamzin in the SpineCor, get an in-brace x-ray (with shields used!!!) and make some decisions then. I'm concerned at the moment with POSSIBLE lack of sizeable lateral correction, but am POSSIBLY (?) pleased with the derotation emphasis. Time-bomb ticking keeps me antsy, but I don't want to rigidify the T curve by applying too much lateral pressure before derotation. The Cheneau, however, DOES derotate AND apply lateral pressure. (The Michael poster used a Boston--much revamped I'd imagine and, as he says, hugely dependent on the skill of the orthotist.)

PS: Mr Mills looked at Tamzin's x-ray of that nightmarish night-time brace we used for a night. He was shocked at how dangerous it was.

Pooka1
01-13-2012, 03:56 PM
Moot issue really, as I doubt there's any substantial difference between AIS and JIS, except maturity. Arbitrary line in the sand.

You have company with that but then what is the explanation of the 1:1 ratio of boys:girls for JIS vice 7:1 for girls:boys for AIS? So it looks like a very different animal. But I guess it could still be the same thing and that something about female puberty biochemistry skews the ratio.

3sisters
01-13-2012, 04:33 PM
[QUOTE=TAMZTOM;133576]Excellent. Interested in what they focused on. At our introduction, the therapist battered straight into exercising, almost assuming Tamzin knew everything. I'm sure that the Germans did a much better prep session with you and the clinic itself has a great reputation. I'm Eager to hear how they proceeded today.

So, the therapist (Susanne) brought out a skeleton model and we went over some body parts in English and German, talked about what is going on in Erin's chest, and what we would work on with breathing. I expect we'll get more of these lessons at successive therapies, but there is only so much time and we will learn a bit at a time as we introduce new information. Our therapist speaks English but we want to know the German terminology as well so that we can get around better in Bad Sobernheim.

There, the first week of therapy is individualized and will be in english, but then the group sessions after the first week will be in German, mostly. So many words are the same, and by then we will be familiar with the methodology and practicing what we've learned.

Anyway, back to the treatment... Then she had Erin lay down and positioned her arms up (left) or down (right, ) adjusted her hips, and worked on having Erin breathe audibly with her. Deep breaths in, longer exhalations, and Susanne kept her hand where she wanted Erin to try to breath into (left lung/ thoracic area.) Susanne recommended 2x/ week therapy before we go to the klinik. I also need to get four beanbags of 200 grams each to help position/ place against Erin's body.

We have begun.

TAMZTOM
01-13-2012, 04:35 PM
...something about female puberty biochemistry skews the ratio.

Yep.

Apart for the casting possibility, the non-invasive treatment would be the same, methinks. I've seen kids as young as 4 doing well with Schroth, despite its undeserved reputation of being difficult to comprehend. Scoliosis ain't an easy thing to fix, deserves the expending of a few brain cells.

TAMZTOM
01-13-2012, 05:11 PM
...she had Erin lay down and positioned her arms up (left) or down (right, ) adjusted her hips, and worked on having Erin breathe audibly with her. Deep breaths in, longer exhalations, and Susanne kept her hand where she wanted Erin to try to breath into (left lung/ thoracic area.) I also need to get four beanbags of 200 grams each to help position/ place against Erin's body. We have begun.

The Team takes to the field, crowd is roaring.....

Left arm up stretches the concave, left side, tight musculature and opens up the left side contracted intercostal rib spacing. The directed breathing into left thoracic GREATLY assists this symmetrising/remodelling work. Left side INHALE, expire upwards. That's the right-angle in R.A.B.
Nb: we noticed after the clinic that purely inhaling into the left side of the thoracic has a tendency to feed the lower same side lumbar curve. We modified, Tamzin breathing BACK LEFT thorax, then expiring to front upper right. (Might be worth mentioning the affect on the LC to the therapist. I'd be interested in her response.) Our modification also assists derotation. (Modifying the breathing pattern is encompassed within the Schroth program.)

The four beanbags also assist with derotation when lying in a "passive correction", supine. Simple and effective.

Being a northern, kilted savage with cro-magnon forehead, I found the glimpses at Fred the Skeleton very confusing. Took me reading the book to understand. Looking now for pictures from the book that dredged me from the dark.

1181
1182
1183

3sisters
03-11-2012, 07:03 AM
Well, my daughter and I survived four weeks as in-patients in the German Schroth Klinik. I know there are others contemplating going. So, I'll do my best to describe what I can in a posting or few. Mind you, I have nothing to compare it with as far as Stateside clinics, or CLEAR, etc. Here goes!

Overall, good training. Caring, knowledgeable physiotherapists. For numbers people, here is what we found.
Clinic docs recalculated all x-rays 'freshly' so there is some variance from what we thought we had.
Me. 51T, 36 L
Erin 28T, 12 L

We did not have new xrays taken afterward because Erin is getting nailed with xrays as we attempt to get her Cheneau adjusted. Also, four weeks is only so long. I will get an OOB xray for her when needed. For me, curiousity will have me xrayed in a few months after I continue training at home (and away, like in Wales:)

We did have rotations read, though. My lumbar rotation was consistent 5 to 5 (end of stay). My thoracic went from 10 degrees to 8/9. Erin's thoracic went from 11 to 10; her lumbar went from 4 to 1.

There were close to 200 patients and accompanying 'begleit' persons (non patients.) Two group sessions each day, two 'functional' sessions where you train on your own with the constant assistance and support of everpresent physiotherapists.

We were in different groups. I was in a group 4BH, which means that my focus was lumbar with hip. Erin in group 3B; a group where thoracic is the focus. Each week every group gets a new leader which I thought was really good because everyone has a slightly different touch or way of explaining something. Also, by four weeks you knew almost all of the therapists from seeing them either in functional or as your leader. And, you search out your favorites/ most beneficial when exercising.

The food was good but very typical German, feel free to ask for clarification on anything I'm talking about! Assigned seating guaranteed no mealtime lonliness and the time to form bonds when one might hide (especially in the face of so many foreign speakers.) Patients arrive and depart on Weds, so each Wed brought fresh people to the table as some left.) Entertainment included weekend day trips, hobby room in the evenings, swimming every evening, walking, TV, ping pong, etc.

Patients were grouped by ages. My group was all adults; my daughter (12) was in a teen group ages 12+, and there was 'junior training' for 11 and under. There were ALL kinds of patients: kindergarteners, many teens, 80 yr olds, men, post-surgical and post-revision surgical, kyphosis, dwarf, mentally retarded, mild curves in the single digits, and some in the 80 degree range. People hailed from Germany, Austria, Ukraine, Russia, USA, Ireland, Norway, Sweden. This is just what I saw while I was there. I know they also come from New Zealand. I think Erin saw an Australian.

You really do not need to speak German but will get more out of it if you do. There are some lectures I passed on because my German isn't good enough. Non-native German speakers get about four single therapy sessions at the beginning to help clarify words and moves. Every week you get a private breathing therapy session to work on the special breathing (Schroth RAB, breathing into the concavities, etc) and 3 messages during a four week session.

While we were gone, my husband fitted out our 'rec room' with many helpful mirrors and wall bars. Stools, chairs, poles, mats, exercise balls, and a few rice bags round it out.

We have a good start and will be happy to answer any questions. I believe this has and will help BOTH of us.

Progress: Within four weeks you could SEE the kyphosis patients make progress. Amazing to witness. I 'got taller' by a few mm but believe it is because of the extensive back and ab training we did. After about two weeks, one day the newer adolescent patient at my table 'grew' with the first erect posture she had ever presented at the table (at the clinic.) I positively remarked to her and her mother. The girl commented, it's EASIER to sit up straight now. It feels right. Her dad visited a week later and was wiggling in his seat, trying to match her posture!

We have measureably decreased rotation. You can see my back straighten during exercises and I believe it IS straighter now. Xrays will PROVE but I'm waiting a few more months on those. Until then, I will continue to exercise. My daughter has/ is working with a Cheneau but I'm 'hedging our bets' on both approaches. She will exercise to maintain her abdominal and back strength, and count on the extra derotation and pressure from the Cheneau for now. For me, it's all Schroth and I will see how much farther I can go!

TAMZTOM
03-11-2012, 10:07 AM
I continue training at home (and away, like in Wales:)

Please send special diet requests in advance as I'm petrified we get exposed like the German clinic. Scottish people only eat haggis and potatoes, even when they live in Wales. Do you need an interpreter, or can you just watch the Shrek films several times before you come? Can you teach me how to do an Arabesque?

Pooka1
03-11-2012, 10:15 AM
Interesting report.

I just wanted to comment on you signature lines,


progressed from AIS upper 20s in thoracic and lumbar (although at skeletal maturity, ha ha)

and


Determined to do better for my daughter than what I knew then,

Don't beat yourself up. In your situation, you would be told the SAME thing you were told then. There has been no movement on this in the ensuing years. Surgeons would tell a person with curves less than 30* at skeletal maturity to go home and that they are out of the woods. They are playing some odds but nobody knows what those odds are.

TAMZTOM
03-11-2012, 06:30 PM
This non-scoliotic adult is about to embark on a 4 week home Schroth course, instructed by my daughter. Save me!


We did have rotations read, though. My lumbar rotation was consistent 5 to 5 (end of stay). My thoracic went from 10 degrees to 8/9. Erin's thoracic went from 11 to 10; her lumbar went from 4 to 1.
Excellent on Erin's lumbar rotation. Did they drill the 5 Schroth pelvic corrections into you both? To assist re-aligning everything above, we've found those corrections fundamental and hugely helpful.


The food was good but very typical German, feel free to ask for clarification on anything I'm talking about! Assigned seating guaranteed no mealtime lonliness and the time to form bonds when one might hide (especially in the face of so many foreign speakers.) Patients arrive and depart on Weds, so each Wed brought fresh people to the table as some left.) Entertainment included weekend day trips, hobby room in the evenings, swimming every evening, walking, TV, ping pong, etc.
My wife better do the shopping then, so's we don't get bad press! I'll get Tamzin onto the seating arrangements to guarantee maximum mischief. "Ping-pong" (table tennis) table is already set up in the stables and the mountains will still be here when you arrive.


People hailed from Germany, Austria, Ukraine, Russia, USA, Ireland, Norway, Sweden. This is just what I saw while I was there. I know they also come from New Zealand. I think Erin saw an Australian.
Ach, no Scots instruction then...


Every week you get a private breathing therapy session to work on the special breathing (Schroth RAB, breathing into the concavities, etc)...
Your RAB instruction was much better than ours. We've learned it for ourselves after attending the clinic; it'll be interesting to see you and Erin perform it as intended. Breathing with RAB has, over the last 8 months, become a way of life for Tamzin. At our last medical appointment, compliments flowed regarding how corrected Tamzin lower left ribs are since her x-ray in July 2011. Seemingly, once those lower ribs angle downwards, it is difficult to correct them. Still work required 'flicking out' the lower right 11th and 12th ribs; Tamzin can move them with RAB, but we haven't focused enough on doing that. We you and Erin instructed on this?


While we were gone, my husband fitted out our 'rec room' with many helpful mirrors and wall bars. Stools, chairs, poles, mats, exercise balls, and a few rice bags round it out.
Does your husband correspond with my wife? That's exactly what we returned to after our month of Schroth.


Progress: Within four weeks you could SEE the kyphosis patients make progress. Amazing to witness. I 'got taller' by a few mm but believe it is because of the extensive back and ab training we did. After about two weeks, one day the newer adolescent patient at my table 'grew' with the first erect posture she had ever presented at the table (at the clinic.) I positively remarked to her and her mother. The girl commented, it's EASIER to sit up straight now. It feels right. Her dad visited a week later and was wiggling in his seat, trying to match her posture!
Great feedback.


We have measureably decreased rotation. You can see my back straighten during exercises and I believe it IS straighter now. Xrays will PROVE but I'm waiting a few more months on those. Until then, I will continue to exercise. My daughter has/ is working with a Cheneau but I'm 'hedging our bets' on both approaches. She will exercise to maintain her abdominal and back strength, and count on the extra derotation and pressure from the Cheneau for now. For me, it's all Schroth and I will see how much farther I can go!
Martha Hawes the 2nd. Congratulations for taking the plunge, the commitment and the improvement. Red carpet is ordered for your arrival.

Alistair
06-19-2012, 02:35 AM
Schroth = PT. If you think PT doesn't work then you don't want to drop $5200 on Schroth.

Is this the sort of money asked by Schroth Clinics?

aterry
06-29-2012, 01:47 PM
I saw a clinical trial for Scroth listed on the NIH web site:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01610908?term=scoliosis&rank=2

Apologies if this is old news. I did a search and read a few Scroth threads but didn't see it posted. I think it's very good news that there is a clinical trial.

I don't post here very often because of the negativity and criticism that posters often receive--so I hope I don't regret this. Good luck to those of you who are trying to move forward.

TAMZTOM
06-29-2012, 02:25 PM
I saw a clinical trial for Scroth listed on the NIH web site...I think it's very good news that there is a clinical trial.
Excellent news, aterry. No negativity from me. I've been doing Schroth with my 11yr old daughter for a year...with some success. :-)


I don't post here very often because of the negativity and criticism that posters often receive--so I hope I don't regret this. Good luck to those of you who are trying to move forward.
It is good luck that there are people like you out there informing others of opportunities to gain knowledge.
Regards
Tom

TAMZTOM
06-29-2012, 03:43 PM
PS: one concern with the study is the proposed 5 x 1 hour sessions!(it might be 2 x 5 one hours sessions). The original K Schroth clinic had kids 8 hours a day for 3 - 6 months, this to "erase the scoliotic subconscious" so crucial to correction. That is a fundamental part of "Schroth"...it will not be achieved by a few sessions.

LindaRacine
06-29-2012, 05:42 PM
Although I don't believe there's ever been a controlled trial, there have been other short-term Schroth studies. What we really need to see is something long-term.

TAMZTOM
06-29-2012, 06:42 PM
Although I don't believe there's ever been a controlled trial, there have been other short-term Schroth studies. What we really need to see is something long-term.

It is unclear whether the study will be using Weiss's "New Power Schroth" stuff (3D made easy, Physiologic, etc.) or K Schroth's original method. Despite Weiss's attempts to label his program as something different, it is the same. The only significant difference would be the de-emphasis on auto-elongation because of the concern with reducing natural kyphosis and lordosis. (The concern is delusory, i.e., the original program adequately addresses restoring or maintaining the sagittal profile.)
Regardless, getting ANY trials in the US, UK and Canada is a step forward out of the darkness....short, medium or long term. They're looking for 100 kids, another plus. Parental involvement, very wise.

PS: short-term is pretty good, actually. 3 years, short term, takes a kid through the heavy growth spurts, results will be extremely useful for the short term.

Alistair
06-30-2012, 03:43 AM
Why are you talking about a trial for 10to18 year olds in a thread called "Have any adults tried Schroth Therapy?", 'adults' being the operative word here, it's a bit frustrating for adults who are looking for info, don't you think??

TAMZTOM
06-30-2012, 07:32 AM
I saw a clinical trial for Scroth listed on the NIH web site:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01610908?term=scoliosis&rank=2
Apologies if this is old news. I did a search and read a few Scroth threads but didn't see it posted. I think it's very good news that there is a clinical trial.

Found another link on your study, aterry.

http://www.orthopaedicsurgery.ualberta.ca/en/Research/~/media/orthopaedicsurgery/Documents/2011ResearchDayNewsletter.pdf

I will follow this with interest.

PS: I wouldn't bother about surly muppet poster negativity...there's an ignore button to obliterate them or you can just pity them. :-)

TAMZTOM
06-30-2012, 03:08 PM
I think it's very good news that there is a clinical trial.

This is from the additional link:

Non-surgical Treatment for Scoliosis
Effect of Exercises for scoliosis
We have enrolled 27 patients in a pilot randomized controlled
trial to develop a prediction rule to identify patients with
adolescent idiopathic scoliosis who may respond to Schroth
exercises. This 6 month trial of biweekly exercise sessions
will continue until 100 patients with scoliosis complete
participation. Abstracts have been submitted to report on
feasibility measures and effect sizes calculated for pain,
function, quality-of-life, radiographic and surface topography
outcomes.


Now, that will be interesting, aterry. I wonder if they'll include stuff like attitude?