pictures of my back: Scoliosis, lordosis and kyphosis. Discussion

[Christian0710]

Hey everyone,

I just wanted to take some pictures of my back in an attempt to better understand the problem and get to know scoliosis, kyphosis and lordosis better. I believe that better understanding leads to motivation which leads to change. It is my wish that we can discuss the different back problems in this post, and include knowledge from anatomy books, our own problems, exercises that help etc.

Theory: If you have lordosis strengthen your abodminals, glutetues muscles
Stretch: ilioposas (Hip flexer muscles) and quadriceps.
I have been following this theory for about a year and to be honest I don't believe it. I think stabilizing the lower part of my lumbar muscles(erector spinae) is important for my back to be tall, stable and erect, but It's just a theory, and I don't know it is the answer??


Kyphosis: Eradicating neck pain.
I am working on my Kyphosis by strengthening my Longus cervicis, and Longis capitis front neck muscles, doing the chin tuck exercise and always keeping my chin tucked when looking down.
When lifting objects I bull my shoulders down and back so my upper trapezius is not doing the lifting, but instead using my lower trapezius and bicep muscle to lift with.


Scoliosis: My question is: I have a left lumbar curve. People always tell me to stretch the right concave side, but to me it looks like my lower back muscles are more developped in my left region of my lower back, pulling the spine to the left. And then as overcompensation my right upper trapezius muscles at my neck is overdeveloped. Does that make sense??


Pictures
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Back%20problems%20scoliosis/DSC00277.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Back%20problems%20scoliosis/DSC00269.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Back%20problems%20scoliosis/DSC00268.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Back%20problems%20scoliosis/DSC00275.jpg

Update: might as well include pictures in top of post
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Backview.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/DSC00296.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/DSC00284.jpg

Bending test 2
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/DSC00306.jpg


I believe that In order to eradicate this problems (Yes I know, I'm always optimistic), it's important to understand the problem 100% in order to exercise correctly. I want my daily neck pain to disappear and I want my back to be straighter and I am willing to do whatever it takes, and I will find a solution, and I hope some of you have the same goals. I Hope some of you are willing to look into these things and discuss some of your theories, and if you want post pictures of your own problem.
The most important thing is, not to focus on the negative, but to focus on how we can change it to the better.

Kind regards,
Christian Fischer

[Pooka1]

It is my wish that we can discuss the different back problems in this post, and include knowledge from anatomy books, our own problems, exercises that help etc.

Those are interesting pictures. I hope many people comment. I have a few comments.


Kyphosis: Eradicating neck pain.

Why do you have pain in your neck? Do you have one, two or three curves? Also, it's interesting that you have a lumbar curve and not too much of a thoracic curve (bending test looks to me like your thorax is normal) yet you have an asymmetrical rib hump on standing. I don't understand that.

How big is your lumbar curve and your kyphosis?

I hope PT helps with your neck pain. And your lumbar curve might not progress if isn't too big.

Good luck.

[hdugger]

Hi Christian,

You have a curve pattern somewhat similar to my son's (although I'd suspect your scoliosis curve is less then his and your kyphotic curve is lower). But he has a scoliosis/kyphosis curve that comes up under his shoulderblade on one side. Do you know the degrees of your curve and whether they're relatively stable?

Is your neck pain at all related to the stretches? Or do the stretches help relieve the pain? My son had a combination of skilled massage and stretches which helped with his neck pain (and also his head-forward posture) but he always has to be really careful of how he positions himself when sitting for awhile or his neck ends up bothering him.

I'm not really qualified to offer specific stretches/exercises. My son got his from a combination of a really good masseuse and a really good physical therapist. Some members of the forum have purchases the book related to the Schroth therapies - you might try that and see if there's anything in there that helps. Also, if you get lucky, we have a resident expert of the board who would know more about the specific muscles involved.

[Christian0710]

Okay I tried one thing that instantly loosened up all my neck pain for a while. When looking at my back I can see that my ribcage is posterior tilted, which probably contributes to my kyphosis.

I tried lying on my stomach on the floor, with a small rolled up towel placed on the inferior (lower) region of my rib cage right where my abdominal wall begins. This tilted back my rib cage and allowed me to breathe into my sunken chest and my back, feeling big release in my upper back and neck.

Illustration of what a posteriorly tilted rib cage looks like from the book "8 steps to a pain free-back"

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Billede3.jpg

I need to train some kind of muscle (must be the upper abdominal muscles) that will pull down on my front part of the rib cage. Any ideas???




Why do you have pain in your neck? Do you have one, two or three curves? Also, it's interesting that you have a lumbar curve and not too much of a thoracic curve (bending test looks to me like your thorax is normal) yet you have an asymmetrical rib hump on standing. I don't understand that.

How big is your lumbar curve and your kyphosis?

I am still not sure if I have more than 2 curves. I'm on the waiting list for having my x-rays taken, but it's a long list unfortunately. I think I have neck pain mainly due to my overuse of my upper trapezius due to my slumped shoulders and my kyphosis.
Yes I too find my back to be a big puzzle (and scoliosis in general), these problems are quite complex!

[Pooka1]

I am still not sure if I have more than 2 curves. I'm on the waiting list for having my x-rays taken, but it's a long list unfortunately. I think I have neck pain mainly due to my overuse of my upper trapezius due to my slumped shoulders and my kyphosis.
Yes I too find my back to be a big puzzle (and scoliosis in general), these problems are quite complex!

Your bending test looks almost normal to me. It is incredible to me that you have the amount of asymmetry you have standing when you almost "fail" the forward bending test for scoliosis as far as I can tell. If a person didn't know to look for the minor asymmetry above your left hip, your forward bending picture would appear normal to many folks I think.

Someone on this group will know about this but is seems unusual.

Good luck.

By the way, Denmark produced the best dressage horse of the 20th century against very stiff competition from a few other European countries notably Germany. So I congratulate you and your countrymen on that. :)

[hdugger]

Yeah, I noticed that, at least from the camera angle of the forward bend photo you didn't seem to have the traditional hump. However, I don't really know what that test would show if your primary issue was lordosis and the kyphosis was functional (instead of the more familiar structural kyphosis with a functional lordosis)

Xrays would definitely help! If it's *all* functional, you're likely to get a pretty good result from exercise/stretching. If it's structural (which the xrays will show), there's only so much give in your muscles before they run up against the fixed structure of the spine.

[Christian0710]

Here is a picture of my back standing up like I would normally stand, where the scoliosis might be a bit clearer.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Backview.jpg

Here is picture of what I would call a bit of TMJ. It's like there is a gap between my teeth to my left side.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/DSC00296.jpg

My asymmetrical head :-)
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/DSC00284.jpg




You have a curve pattern somewhat similar to my son's (although I'd suspect your scoliosis curve is less then his and your kyphotic curve is lower). But he has a scoliosis/kyphosis curve that comes up under his shoulderblade on one side. Do you know the degrees of your curve and whether they're relatively stable?

Is your neck pain at all related to the stretches? Or do the stretches help relieve the pain? My son had a combination of skilled massage and stretches which helped with his neck pain (and also his head-forward posture) but he always has to be really careful of how he positions himself when sitting for awhile or his neck ends up bothering him.

I'm not really qualified to offer specific stretches/exercises. My son got his from a combination of a really good masseuse and a really good physical therapist. Some members of the forum have purchases the book related to the Schroth therapies - you might try that and see if there's anything in there that helps. Also, if you get lucky, we have a resident expert of the board who would know more about the specific muscles involved.

hey there,
The stretches relieve my pain but not for long. I am constantly trying different sitting positions and movements to prevent the pain, and it helps, but I still can't sit in a class for long without getting really stiff in my neck sometimes resulting in headaches and poor concentration.
My father (living in Canada) told me that he is going to give me that book this summer (the Schroth method) as a gift but I don't think there is anyone teaching that here in Denmark.
How old is your son if i may ask? And is he able to reduce his curve with exercises?

[hdugger]

Hi Christian,

My son is 22. He's shown remarkable *cosmetic* improvement with the exercises - it's reduced his head-forward posture and lessened the appearance of kyphosis/scoliosis. It's also reduced his discomfort.

So far, his curves are stable, although there's a good deal of "noise" is the xray measurement. His last measurements showed no change in his kyphosis and "within the range of error" (6 degree) decrease in his scoliosis.

It's interesting that you have facial/jaw asymmetry - he has that as well. And it all started happening during his adolescent growth spurt. He developed a serious open bite (serious enough to require surgery) and his face became noticeably asymmetrical.

Not to suggest scamming the system, but could you fake an acute back injury in order to get an xray? Sudden pain in the lower back, or something that would make them want to speed up the xray process? I'm in the over-treated U.S., but I end up getting offered unwanted xrays all the time with muscle-related back problems.

[jrnyc]

hi Christian
you and i have waists that look similar..:(

i have 42 thoracic curve and 61 lumbar...also have thoracic hypokyphosis, rotation, listhesis, spinal stenosis (lower), arthritis of spine, degenerative disc disease..need surgery T11-pelvis...but am "waffling" on whether/when to have it...
i have gotten alot of help from botox shots in thoracic spine...injections i've gotten for lower spine havent helped alot...did get relief from sciatica on left side with epidural..shocked that it helped!

i think i read that you are against surgery for yourself...just wondering what kind of spine doctors are available to you in Denmark..? can you see a pain management doctor?

also...i guess you dont know yet if you have disc degeneration,or other stuff going on beside the scoli til you get the Xrays done... will you be having an MRI also?

i hope you find the answers you are looking for...i know you said you are waiting to have Xrays...does Denmark have national health care...is that why you have to wait...?

best regards
jess

[rohrer01]

It almost looks to me like you have an upper thoracic curve in the "standing" picture. That would make sense with your shoulder blade that sticks out. I am puzzled why there is no rib hump. I have an upper thoracic, but on bending forward I have very obvious rib humps. :confused:

[Christian0710]

Just to complete my interesting artwork of a crooked body, I thought I might add in my feet :P
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/DSC00303.jpg


Hi Christian,

My son is 22. He's shown remarkable *cosmetic* improvement with the exercises - it's reduced his head-forward posture and lessened the appearance of kyphosis/scoliosis. It's also reduced his discomfort.

So far, his curves are stable, although there's a good deal of "noise" is the xray measurement. His last measurements showed no change in his kyphosis and "within the range of error" (6 degree) decrease in his scoliosis.

It's interesting that you have facial/jaw asymmetry - he has that as well. And it all started happening during his adolescent growth spurt. He developed a serious open bite (serious enough to require surgery) and his face became noticeably asymmetrical.

Not to suggest scamming the system, but could you fake an acute back injury in order to get an xray? Sudden pain in the lower back, or something that would make them want to speed up the xray process? I'm in the over-treated U.S., but I end up getting offered unwanted xrays all the time with muscle-related back problems.

It seems as if your son and I have a lot in common. I too am 22 years, working with these problems so I can live a life without pain. The last 2 years my level of pain free time has improved, but there is still a lot to work on. I am quite impressed that he decreased his scoliosis by 6degree. It sounds like he is on the right path. I am quite sure that my scoliosis and jaw asymmetry started taking place in my adolescent growth as well, but it sounds like mine was not as severe as his. It would be interesting to chat whit him and see how he copes with it. Is he on the forum as well?

Yes, I probably could fake my back pain and perhaps get a x-ray taken sooner, but I'm not a very good liar :-)
I called the hospital and told them to send me to a hospital with a shorter waiting list, so I will be getting a letter with the final date soon.

[Christian0710]

hi Christian
you and i have waists that look similar..

i have 42 thoracic curve and 61 lumbar...also have thoracic hypokyphosis, rotation, listhesis, spinal stenosis (lower), arthritis of spine, degenerative disc disease..need surgery T11-pelvis...but am "waffling" on whether/when to have it...
i have gotten alot of help from botox shots in thoracic spine...injections i've gotten for lower spine havent helped alot...did get relief from sciatica on left side with epidural..shocked that it helped!

i think i read that you are against surgery for yourself...just wondering what kind of spine doctors are available to you in Denmark..? can you see a pain management doctor?

also...i guess you dont know yet if you have disc degeneration,or other stuff going on beside the scoli til you get the Xrays done... will you be having an MRI also?

i hope you find the answers you are looking for...i know you said you are waiting to have Xrays...does Denmark have national health care...is that why you have to wait...?

best regards
jess


Hey Jess,
The problem is, I can't really find anyone in Denmark who knows very much about scoliosis, it's as if it has been neglected here. I have tried different specialists without much avail (except for one who was quite good giving me some good exercises, but now I feel like it's time to move on to someone new.)

It sounds like your scoliosis has become quite severe, are you doing exercises that help you? Yes I have chosen surgery to be my last resort. I really want to find out how I can listen to my body and cope with its pain at first. The reason why I never take pain killers for instance is because I believe that my body is sending me signals and by dulling those pain signals with drugs, I will never learn what my body is telling me. I eradicated a lot of my head aches by changing my diet. If I had not read the book "Heal your headache " and just went for the pills, I would never have discovered the dietary triggers causing my headaches, and then I would not have been able to give my body what it needs. But surely understand that sometimes surgery is the only way, and I totally respect that.

I will only be having an X-ray taken and not an MRI. What would the benefits of having an MRI be?
Fortunately Denmark has natural health care, and yes unfortunately that's why the waiting lists are so long :P

I wish you the best as well.

[Pooka1]

Christian0710,

I think your case is extremely interesting. If you were in a school screening program for scoliosis I think you would not be flagged with that forward bending test which appears almost completely normal. I have seen pictures of kyphosis cases bending over and the curve remains. Yours completely disappears.

I think your choice is to walk around the rest of your life bent forward where your back looks normal or try some PT to help the conditions your have. :)

I am guessing your lumbar scoliosis is mild and like hdugger suggested, you might have some sort of functional thoracic (and possibly cervical) scoliosis that is exacerbating your lordosis/kyphosis which also might be functional (and not structural) if that even exists. It is very curious how asymmetrical it is on standing.

Hopefully the right PT will help you and that you will not need surgery.

Good luck.

[Christian0710]

Bending test 2
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/DSC00306.jpg


Hey Pooka1: I just found out that I might have been doing the bending test wrong. This time i tried to bend from my back instead of my hips. When bending from my hips my back naturally straightens, but when bending from my back it becomes more deform.

In this photo it looks as if I have thoracolumbar scoliosis, don't you think??

[Pooka1]

Bending test 2
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/DSC00306.jpg


Hey Pooka1: I just found out that I might have been doing the bending test wrong. This time i tried to bend from my back instead of my hips. When bending from my hips my back naturally straightens, but when bending from my back it becomes more deform.

In this photo it looks as if I have thoracolumbar scoliosis, don't you think??

Thanks for doing that!

Yes I agree with you that you might have a thoracolumbar curve. But notice again that other than that long, apparently mild TL curve, the rest of your back appears completely normal. No rib hump, no kyphosis, nothing. And standing, your shoulders are even.

I think the suregons will have to rule out functional issues before they would ever consider operating. If you curve is mild they would not consider operating anyway.

I am really looking forward to your radiographs. When do you think you will get in to have those done?

[jrnyc]

hi Christian
i dont know what your back is telling you..mine is saying..."help...i hurt...a lot..." :rolleyes:
i used to exercise at the gym....just cardio and weights...nothing special for scoli...but had to give it up 2 years ago due to pain...i need the pain meds just to take the edge off!

i think an MRI shows a lot more than a regular Xray...it revealed how much worse my discs have gotten (the reason for the increase in my pain), and i think it showed more of the spinal stenosis and arthritis, too....

i hope you find the exercises that will help you...

jess

[Christian0710]

Thanks for doing that!

Yes I agree with you that you might have a thoracolumbar curve. But notice again that other than that long, apparently mild TL curve, the rest of your back appears completely normal. No rib hump, no kyphosis, nothing. And standing, your shoulders are even.

I think the suregons will have to rule out functional issues before they would ever consider operating. If you curve is mild they would not consider operating anyway.

I am really looking forward to your radiographs. When do you think you will get in to have those done?


Hey Pooka1.
Gosh, it's only 04:17am, here in Denmark, and just can't sleep any longer. I feel 100% awake and refreshed. Strange?? :P
I can't wait to have those x-rays taken, and unfortunately I still don't know the date, but it might be a month or something like that, unfortunately. I will definitely post them when they are ready.
You are right, it is kind of strange that I have no rib hump, but standing my doctor told me I have Hyper kyphosis. Maybe the pictures don't illustrate that very well, but the standing pose should show some level of kyphosis and I have a belief that the Kyphosis is the real culprit of my neck pain, but it's hard to tell.

[hdugger]

Yes, I see the kyphosis coming up under your shoulder blade. That's just how my son looks--bumpy on one side and not on the other--and he has even shoulders as well. That doesn't mean that you do have a structural curve. He has a clear hump when he bends forward, which I don't see in your pictures.

My son is not only not on the forum, he really does not want to think about the whole issue unless it starts either progressing or causing him pain. If he has to have surgery, he'll probably start posting here himself. Until then, it's just going to be me :)

[hdugger]

Hyperkyphosis means that your back isn't bowing out like it should. It is flat or sunken in near the top, the opposite of hunchback. Gosh I hate using that word!

I'm almost certain that's HYPOkyphosis (hypo=less than normal). HYPERkyphosis is where it bows too much (hyper=more than normal)

[rohrer01]

I'm almost certain that's HYPOkyphosis (hypo=less than normal). HYPERkyphosis is where it bows too much (hyper=more than normal)

You are right. I was thinking hypo... Sorry, my mind is apparently not working correctly tonight. Maybe I should refrain from posting. :o

I deleted the post so as not to confuse anyone.

[Christian0710]

I just went to the doctor's office today to get some help mapping out my overactive muscles in my body, so I can exercise more efficiently. What I and he realized, which I can also see on the pictures now, is that my shoulders are now straight (also what hdugger mentioned). About 3 weeks ago when I went to see the doctor there was approximately 1cm difference in height he had told me. The interesting thing is that I have been doing nothing but functional exercise the last 3 weeks, especially learning how to use the shoulders in a right manner.
He told me that my rights shoulder wings a bit, which will be my next mission to remedy ;)

Now for everyone with scoliosis and/or back and neck pain there are 2 books I recommend more than any other at this point. It's: Health in your hands by Kevin Lau, and overcoming beck and neck pain by Lisa Morrone. The latter is not about scoliosis, but certainly shows you how to use your body correctly which might also have a positive effect on your scoliosis in the long run.

The sun is shining here in Denmark, and I will continue studying anatomy so i can further treat myself and one day treat others, and of course i can't forget to take a walk outside and get my vitamin D :)

[Pooka1]

Hey Christian 0710, I'm going to make a suggestion which comes from me, an untrained, lay person.

We were discussing a case of "hysterical" scoliosis a while back wherein the curve was not structural but was only functional. The girl was essentially talked out of it was in other cases of hysterical scoliosis.

I thought maybe you might have hysterical kyphosis and lordosis and possibly also that TL curve might only be functional also. Now I think hysterical scoliosis is fundamentally a neuro problem that is amenable to improvement with conscious thought and PT. With that I am NOT suggesting anything crazy. I am suggesting that you might actually try to get an appointment with a neurologist and ask about this. The guy would have to be VERY experienced in back issues I would say. Perhaps you could bring what little literature there is on this subject to the appointment.

Your bending photos would make me very wary of ever getting surgery for your condition as I think you "fail" that test for structural problems. There is at least one case of a patient who was put under anesthesia in preparation for spinal fusion of her curve but just putting her under relaxed her and the curve went away. They woke her up and her back was normal - no surgery necessary. Perhaps you might eventually be able to try this first if anyone suggests surgery to you.

Good luck.

[Davis]

Wow, wouldn't that be a dream come true, to go to sleep and then just wake up ok.

[Pooka1]

Wow, wouldn't that be a dream come true, to go to sleep and then just wake up ok.

Hysterical scoliosis is apparently exquisitely rare, a fact in keeping with the mindless cruelty of life and the abject pointlessness of the universe.

[Christian0710]

Hey Pooka1

You might be right about it being a neurological problem, because I do have a lot of other imbalances in my system e.g. pollen allergy, and my body immediately responds to bad nutrition, especially sugar, and most pills and general medication knocks me out as well . So far, I am doing so many different ergonomic exercises, and constantly adjusting my posture (especially my neck) and I really want to see what effect this can give my body. I still have days where neck and shoulder pain is bad, and it's often a day after I have been eating sugar and snacks, so I am going to try to totally cut it out of my diet, only eating organic meat and vegetables (going to the extreme!) to see what will happen :)
Today was good, I sat 4 hours at work without pain, and did squatting and different ergonomic exercises in my brakes.
I will keep what you mentioned in mind. I think trying a grand variety of different specialists is a good idea.

By the way, what does PT mean? I keep hearing that word, and always wonder what it is. It's probably obvious when first i hear it :P

[Pooka1]

By the way, what does PT mean? I keep hearing that word, and always wonder what it is. It's probably obvious when first i hear it :P

PT = Physical Therapy. Exercise.

[Emmie]

Hello Christian:

I just found these forums a few days ago, and my account has just been activated. So, this is my first post :D

I am very interested in what you have found regarding exercise and your curvature. I have also found that exercise helps a great deal; if nothing else, strengthening the proper muscles has helped prevent my curves from deteriorating if nothing else.

I have learned something from my chiropractor and the personal trainer I worked with at my gym for a while. For every muscle, there is an opposite one. As humans, we often feel an ache or tightness and assume that muscle or area must be what needs work. While it does, it is not the only area that needs work. Sometimes the ache you feel in your quadracep is due to the fact that your gluteus or hamstring muscles are weak and in trying to compensate the quad gets overstretched. If you only work on your quads, you will not solve the issue... in fact you may inadvertently make things worse.

I realized from this that sometimes my body needs to do the opposite of what seems to make sense to me! I have both a thoracic and lumbar curve in a backwards "S". I feel a lot of tightness in my left lumbar region and want to stretch it out. The truth is, I need to strengthen the muscles on the right of the curve as well... when I only stretch the left area, I wind up in more pain later on.

In the example you provided regarding abdominal muscles, it is known that exercising the core muscles of the abdomen can help flatten that area and pull it in... however, the muscles of the lumbar region must also be strengthened properly. That can be tricky for anyone to do without injury, but especially so when a curve is present.

If you have not already tried it, I highly recommend that you get a copy of "Yoga for Scoliosis" by Elise Browning Miller. It should be available on VHS and DVD format. It is a very thoughtful and clear guide on a yoga practice, with variations for each type of curvture and demonstrations. So, for example, there may be a note that people with no thoracic curve should keep their hands even during a particular pose. Those with a thoracic curve to the right should extend their left arm further during this pose; those with one to the left should extend their right arm.

I think wha you have found so far is wonderful, and I am glad for you! I look forward to hearing more about your progress. I am also going to look for the books you mentioned, I think they would be very helpful for me as well!

Take care,
Emmie

[Christian0710]

Hello Emmie,
Thank you for sharing your insightful information about exercising. It made me realize some things, and I have some questions for you:

I believe that the muscles that are tight need to be stretched because they are overcompensating for other weak muscles, so if my neck get's stiff when I am lifting objects, my upper trapezius is being used instead of my shoulder (and lower trapezius when the shoulder is in place) and bicep which gives me lots of neck pain. And this makes perfect sense with what you are saying, because in this case I need to strengthen my lower trapezius, and my bicep to be able to use the arm to lift effectively.

I am very interested in the "learning to strengthen the lumbar muscles in the back" Do you have any effective and safe exercises for strengthening the lower back? And do you find that the tightness is on the same side as the direction of the curve, or the opposite side of the curve? There are the back muscles called erector spinae, and I have not really put much thought into exercising them. I know that my ribcage is posteriorly tilted (rib cage sticks out under my chest, instead of sitting in a horizontal line with my abdominal wall, thus giving my kyphotic posture) And it makes sense: I rarely feel lower back pain, and that must be because my lower back muscles are so weak that my upper region is out of balance because my lower back muscles don't stabilize very well.

Sometimes I feel as if this subject is so complex, because there are so many muscles in imbalance at once, and it's difficult to understand what causes pain sometimes, but I believe trial and error with good theories and education will get us far.

The only thing i can do is to try. I tried strengthening my rhomboids to further adduct my shoulderblades, but that created so much stiffness in my upper thoracic area that i know it's not the right exercise for me. If we keep trying new exercises, we could probably quickly figure out what feels good and what leaves us with stiffness, don't you think? :)

I hope to hear from you soon
Best wishes,
Christian

[Back-out]

If we keep trying new exercises, we could probably quickly figure out what feels good and what leaves us with stiffness, don't you think? :)

Exactly why I know I need to see a physiatrist - and one with spinal expertise.

The floor exercises I've gone back to doing since last October, DO relieve my pain but also cause much more stiffness too. Both help and hurt are in the lumbar area where the worst curvature is and also the (relatively) new kyphosis.

Net, the change is positive (I couldn't manage the pain without the core strengthening). However, ideally I could do exercises that ONLY do good. I suspect some of the exercises are making things worse, but which? (The routine is a mixture of at least ten different ones.)

Christian, you are ASTONISHINGLY knowledgeable about anatomy! I noticed the same thing in "sacket" who is about your age. What mature young men! I really admire you both for taking such responsibility for your own health.

Can't help thinking you will both end up making some career contribution to do with scoliosis and turn your affliction into a blessing to others.

[Christian0710]

Dear Black-out
Thank you so much for the words of praise. It's very encouraging for me to hear that, and encourages me to work even harder.

This is what I believe: When we exercise it always feels good because of the endorphins released in the body (even if exercising improperly) it's the feeling we get about 15-30 minutes after exercising that we should pay attention to.

I guess my question to you would be, where do you feel stiffness after exercising? And have you tried to isolate your exercises? Maybe do one exercise, wait 30 minutes, do another exercise, or something like that. When i e.g. do shoulder adduction in the "prone cobra" my neck and thoracic region tightens up, so for now it's a "no-go" for me. exercise Our body will tell us everything we need to know, we just have to listen, and I find that to be the hardest exercise to do sometimes. Right now as I am writing I feel slight neck pain because my head is tilted downwards putting excessive pressure on my neck, and my arms are leaning forward typing on the keyboard pulling my shoulders in a slump and flexing my upper trapezius which in this case is the culprit of my neck pain pain. There we go (tucking in my chin and moving my keyboard close to my body and pulling down my shoulders) ... Now it feels much better :-)



Winged scapula
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Wingingsrightscapula.jpg

I just took a picture of my right winged scapula, and after doing some reading found out that I need to strengthen my lower trapezius and my serratus anterior. Here is the exercise I must begin doing in every single lifting movement I make throughout the day.

Exercise for winged scapula
http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/fitness/h_Scap_Anchor.htm

[Pooka1]

Winged scapula
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Wingingsrightscapula.jpg

What's the difference between a winged scapula and a rib hump?? :confused:

[Christian0710]

Hey Pooka,

I think a rib hump is when the ribcage is deformed protruding in some area of the body, The winged scapulae is when the shoulderblade is not functioning properly, and winging when using the arm to press against a surface.

I will have my x-rays done on July 30th at 8am. I can't wait!!!

Today i was preparing dinner, and suddently ifelt much neck pain and got a head ache. I felt frustrated, but then i discoverd i was using my arms improperly, pulling my shoulders foward to cut the vegetables which made my neck muscles tigthen up. It's difficult to always have to monitor my posture, but i know it's nessecery for now.

[Christian0710]

Yes, i got my x-rays taken yesterday, so now i have to wait 2 weeks to see them together with my doctor, then i hope he can send them to my email so i can post them here :)


I am having one problem: Every time i get down on all four (arms and legs as when doing push ups) I feel my neck tighten because my upper trapezius muscles contracts. When the upper trapezius is stiff, headaches occur. By adducting my shoulders the stiffness goes away but it feels as if something is still not right. Is anyone having the same problem? I would like to figure out how to solve it.

[Lorraine 1966]

Hi Christian, how absolutely wonderful to read about your journey so far with your problems. You rang a bell with me ,as when I found out about my scoliosis (my curve was pretty bad), but one side of my body the muscles were weak and the side where the spine had curved to the muscles were a lot stronger. Just thought I would mention that.

You are so in tune with your body your posts are just a pleasure to read. Talking about posture there is a technique called the Alexander technique that some people have found a tremendous help, just a thought. there is a lot of it on the net to read about. I really wish you heaps of luck.

Lorraine.

[rohrer01]

When I do my PT exercises, my left side is clearly weaker than my right in all respects. Also on neuro exams my left leg is alway weaker. I think we scoli people are uneven in more than just our spines. I work the weak side just as hard as the strong side, however, hoping that I can even things out eventually.

[jrnyc]

i think one side is always trying to make up for the other...one side is always stronger due to the curve(s)....or so a doctor told me....his daughter had surgery with Dr B. a few years ago...great outcome...
but i am still..."on the fence," as he says...:rolleyes:

jess

[Christian0710]

Hi Lorraine,

Thank you for mentioning that. Has your curve decreased? And which exercises did you do?
Yes I have heard Alexander technique is very good. I will have a look at the Alexander technique, when I am finished reading all the other books on back pain :-)

rohrer01: It would be interesting to to some exercise experiments while listening to our own body. If the theory is that the muscles are tightest on the side to which the curve goes, maybe we could exercise the weaker side just a bit more than the not so weak about 3-4 times a week and see what happens after a month? Just an idea, and i still need more knowledge on the subject :)


Exercises that have actually helped me very much with neck pain the last month are:
Chin tucks and face-lying neck lifts. Whenever sit and read I use my longus cervicis and lungus capitis (check them on google, they are also referred to as neck flexor muscles and are important for neck pain sufferers) to look down. So instead of bending my neck forward, I keep the back of my neck long by tucking my chin to tilt my head downward to look at the book which strengthens the front neck flexor muscles. Yea I look like a chimpanzees while doing it, but it's pain free :-)
I'am currently reading the book "Fixing you: Neck pain and headaches" And I sent an e-mail to the physiotherapist who wrote the book with some pictures. In the book it describes how the shoulders are often the culprits of neck pain, because if they are sitting too low on the back the levator scapulae (which attaches from the neck to the shoulder blade, check google) are overworked, causing neck pain and headaches, and if the shoulders are hunched as in my case, my theory is that my upper trapezius is doing all the work, creating headaches.

Lower back pain and the multifidus muscle
Another interesting fact from the book "The multifidus back pain solution": Many people with diagnosed disorders such as scoliosis (up until 40 degrees), spondylolisthesis, spondylosis, shauermann's disease don't nessecarely feel lower back pain. But one thing almost every lower back pain sufferer had in common was an abnormality in the multifidus mucles. Therefore exercising those muscles is very important according to the book and research done in it. Before I begin exercising them too much I need to fix my winged scapulae, and neck pain. It has decreased very much the last couple weeks, and one day I will become pain free.

[Lorraine 1966]

Hi Christian, I had to have the operation, but am so enjoying this thread. I would love if someone could give me some lower back exercises as sometimes I just feel if I could streeeeetch them it may help with the pain.

Emma. welcome to our scoliosis Forum, I found your post excellent as well. Christian you are contributing so amazingly well to this forum, so glad you found it,. Hey come on the rest of you young ones, give me some more tips here, honestly they could help with the pain. It certainly wont hurt it.:)

Lorraine.

[rohrer01]

Honestly, lately I've been trying a number of exercises given to me over the years by physical therapists. I'm finding that some of them are excruciatingly painful and others not so much. I'm listening to my body and avoiding the painful ones as they seem to bring on more of a "nerve" pain. I realize my body is changing over the years, so what was good for me 20 years ago may be harmful now. It is very good advice to listen to your body. You may be surprised at how much you are still able to do.:)

[Christian0710]

Sitting down back stretch
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/DSC00464.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/DSC00468.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/DSC00463.jpg


Hey guys, I have been experimenting with sitting down while eating and I really find that sitting in this way while eating feels amazing on the back. Instead of the discs being compressed they are stretched. This requires that you tuck in the chin so you don't extend your neck and get a stiff neck.

Simply spread your legs to let your body slide forward and let your arms rest on your legs and then start eating :)

There were 950 applicants wanting to get into physiotherapy this year and they only took in 145 applicants, so unfortunately I did not get in this year, so I decided to pay for an exercise instructor education which takes a month of intensive learning, then gain some experience working in a gym and then get into the fysiotherapy program next year. I can't have a job where I have to sit down and read all the time, and I got to respect that.

Does anyone have any good books on kyphosis and lordosis they could recommend??

[Lorraine 1966]

Wow, that feels wonderful Christian, Thank you so, so much for taking the trouble to take these photos and I have done them and it does help, you are the best.

Lorraine (Hugs across the sea)

[Christian0710]

Wow, that feels wonderful Christian, Thank you so, so much for taking the trouble to take these photos and I have done them and it does help, you are the best.

Lorraine (Hugs across the sea)

Thank you for taking the time to try it out!
I'm glad to hear it feels good, and you are very welcome Lorraine :-)


Reminder: Lying in bed on the side
When I lie on my side I often feel that the upper lateral side of my neck gets tight (probably my sternocleidomastoid or scalene muscles) which is the side facing up toward the ceiling. This probably occurs because I don't want half of my face to avoid the pillow from touching my eye . I found out that my head was tilted more to one side (the side facing upwards) which made a twist in my neck muscles, by twisting my head so it's completely in line with the rest of my neck and spine which made a big difference.

Raising my shoulders stretch
When i shrug/raise both my shoulders to the ears while elongating my torso by sucking in my belly and using the abdominal muscles to lengthen the spine i feel a very nice stretch in the back along the spine. It feels amazing.

[Lorraine 1966]

It certainly does and takes a lot of the tension away from the back of my neck.
These exercises are not painful or agonising, they are just simple, easy ones that dont have any sore after effects for me.

thank you once again,
Lorraine.

[lucida]

Hi Christian... i was wondering if you could let me know wht this is? thanks :)

[Christian0710]

Hey guys. I am trying to read and understand The Scroth scoliosis three dimensional curve book and I must say, It's hard to comprehend everything in that book. Anyone reading the book? It's loaded with informative information, but really takes some time to understand.

So I have left lumbar scoliosis, which makes my right rib cage concave, so I believe (without being 100% sure) That the right lumbar muscles are inactive and the convex sided muscles are very active (making them look bigger). I tried to make up some exercise to activate the right inactive side, where I extend my right leg and reach up towards the doorframe with my right arm while breathing into my right concave ribcage.

Scoliosis Exercise testing
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Editofbackextension.jpg

What do you thing about the theory? And have any of you studied the torsion of your spinal column? On a frontal plane the spine bends to one side, but on a three dimensional plane it could rotate to a completely different side which is what makes the problem so complicated to solve.


Lucida, Here is a little information about TMJ.
Temporomandibular joint (TMJ) syndrome is pain in the jaw joint that can be caused by a variety of medical problems. The TMJ connects the lower jaw (mandible) to the skull (temporal bone) in front of the ear. Certain facial muscles control chewing. Problems in this area can cause head and neck pain, facial pain, ear pain, headaches, a jaw that is locked in position or difficult to open, problems biting, and jaw clicking or popping sounds when you bite.

[mamamax]

Hi Christian - this web site will help you with Schroth: http://www.schroth-skoliosebehandlung.de/home_en.php

[Christian0710]

Thank you for the website Mamamax. it's very helpful :)
Have you read the book yourself? And have you seen a Schroth therapist?

[foofer]

Hi Lorraine,



Exercises that have actually helped me very much with neck pain the last month are:
Chin tucks and face-lying neck lifts. Whenever sit and read I use my longus cervicis and lungus capitis (check them on google, they are also referred to as neck flexor muscles and are important for neck pain sufferers) to look down. So instead of bending my neck forward, I keep the back of my neck long by tucking my chin to tilt my head downward to look at the book which strengthens the front neck flexor muscles. Yea I look like a chimpanzees while doing it, but it's pain free :-)
I'am currently reading the book "Fixing you: Neck pain and headaches" And I sent an e-mail to the physiotherapist who wrote the book with some pictures. In the book it describes how the shoulders are often the culprits of neck pain, because if they are sitting too low on the back the levator scapulae (which attaches from the neck to the shoulder blade, check google) are overworked, causing neck pain and headaches, and if the shoulders are hunched as in my case, my theory is that my upper trapezius is doing all the work, creating headaches.



Hi Christian,

I ordered this book from Amazon after you mentioned it here. My biggest problem with all my back issues is a headache that has increased over time in both frequency and intensity. This summer was a bad one for pain for me, and I kept telling everyone, "If only I could get rid of the headache, I could tolerate the rest......."

The month of September is a 30 day challenge for me to do the exercises as often as possible (at home diligently, at work in my office, whenever no one is looking on the floor or even when they are:rolleyes:) When I do them I experience hours of relief; when I don't it's headaches-as-usual. So I thank you and I'm amused that someone in Denmark turned me on to a book originating from an author in Denver. I live in Colorado.

How are you doing and what was the result of your x-ray expeditions?

Amy

[Christian0710]

Hey Amy,

I'm glad to hear you are active in coping with your own pain. Yea, the internet is an amazing thing, makes people able to help each other from a distance :)

I'm interested in hearing how big a difference this month can make for you. I myself have started exercising all the deep muscles of the neck and the deep abdominal muscles a lot lately, (almost an hour a day) and it feels great. I think in the long run it will pay off, and I know it's a long process. From my instructor course I learned that when you work out a muscle in the beginning, what you are really doing is learning to activate the muscle by stimulating the corresponding nerves to it. And that's great, because we want our sleeping muscles to activate so over compensative muscles don't have to de extra work resulting in stiffness.
What I'm struggling with at the moment is understanding the 3-dimensional problem that scoliosis creates (3 dimensional rotation) and understanding how to straighten the back by rotational and breathing exercises.

Here are some of the X-ray pictures that I got form the hospital

Cervical region (Neck)
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Neck.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/cervicalsideview.jpg

Thoracic region
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/thoracicspine.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/thoracicspinesideview.jpg

Lumbar region
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Lumbarspine.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/lumbarspinesideview.jpg

[Beatriz Torres]

Can you check in the Three Dimensional Treatment for Scoliosis by Christa Lehnert-Schroth, PT book on fig. 154 if your left lumbar curve is similar ? You can write me a private message .

[Christian0710]

Hi everyone,
I thought It was time to update my scoliosis journal.

I have been exercising systematic and my pain has begun decreasing much (until I had a shoulder accident, and now I have to wait 3 more weeks doing elastic band rotator cuff exercises argh :P) I actually gained about 20Lb of muscle (mostly stabilizer and trunk musculature), but now I'm losing a bit while I'm recovering from shoulder injury.

I really want to correct this scoliosis more than anything in the world. I found something in the Schroth method book that I wanted to put into consideration considering the Iliopsoas and quadratus lumborum musculature.

Here is a small quote from "The three-dimensional treatment of scoliosis" regarding the Iliopsoas musculature.
Iliopsoas (p. 52)
"It affects lateral movement to the side of the contraction(...)" This means lateral flexion of the spine e.g. my right Iliopsoas will make me sidebend right (making the arch of the spinal curve go left)
"(...) and at the same time rotation to the opposite side" My right iliopsoas will pull on the transverse process so my spinal column rotates left (making the right transverse process go ventrally and the left go posteriorly)

If I have a lumbar curve going left, then my right Iliopsoas is probably pulling my lumbar spine downward (giving me a lumbar lordosis) while it's rotating my spine to the left, so I am going to stretch it very much and do some deep tissue work.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Anatomy/scoliosis.jpg


The quadratus lomborum.
The question is: In which side is the quadratus lumborum dominant or weak?
In the picture (underneath) Crista Lehnert Schroth says that "In scoilosis, this muscle works unilaterally, pulling transverse processes of lumbar spine to one side" Could it be that it attaches mostly to the posterior side of the transverse process and so the dominant side rotates the spine in opposite direction?
She further writes:
"In case of inactivity (of Quadratus L.) , this musles no longer pulls on the transverse process" This must mean that if the Quadratus L. is weak it can't counterbalance the pull of the iliopsoas (which attaches to the transverse process as well) so if my right quadratus lumborum is weak it's not counterbalancing the pull of the iliopsoas thus rotating my spine left.

In this picture the quadratus lumborum is weak on the left convex side, therefore the spine rotates right.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Anatomy/Lumbarspine.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/christian0710/Anatomy/Quadratuslumborum.jpg


Hmm I really got to figure it out, but it's not easy and it really takes a lot of careful studying. It would be great to get some input from someone who is into anatomy.