Wich are the guilty ones?

[flerc]

When my daughter is lying down over the concave side, I see her spine straight, but just she is stand up, the curve appears immediately again. Which is the guilty of this impossibility to keep the spine straight?

_Muscles
_ligaments?
_Tendons?
_Vertbras
_Discs
_Rib cage?
_Joints
_Internal organs
_Fascias
_Something else?

Saying in other words, if it would be possible to improve without limits only one of these body parts, which of them you’ll select?
May be a combination of all, but I can not believe that percentages of incidence could be the same for all. Could it be different for everyone?

One surgeon said me that vertebras (and probably she said discs too) are the guiltys without any doubt, another surgeon said me that muscles, other said me 80% muscles 20% joints, internal organs are the guilty for some western therapists. Surely Abr people thinks that it is the pneumatic skeleton.
This week I was thinking ABR people are right. Last week I thought the first surgeon was right, Last month I thought second surgeon was right.. I don’t know what I’ll think tomorrow. Now, I'm thinking about muscles again, but not because strength, as some months ago, but because length. I think that is not a mater of short length in the convex side, as I heard, but it is because muscles of the concave side are much longer.. Or may be because ligaments?
What do you think? Every kind of answer seem to be so reasonable as any other.

[hdugger]

The SEAS people in Italy claim three components: muscles, ligaments, and bone

Someone lying, in a brace, shows just the effect of the bone
Someone lying, not in a brace, shows the effect of the bone and ligaments
Someone standing without a brace shows the effect of all three

At least, that's their theory

[flerc]

The SEAS people in Italy claim three components: muscles, ligaments, and bone

Someone lying, in a brace, shows just the effect of the bone
Someone lying, not in a brace, shows the effect of the bone and ligaments
Someone standing without a brace shows the effect of all three

At least, that's their theory

mmm.. 33% muscles bones and ligaments? Nothing about joints, facias..? The same in all cases? Muscles because strength or length? Do you know if they says something about this?

[hdugger]

mmm.. 33% muscles bones and ligaments? Nothing about joints, facias..? The same in all cases? Muscles because strength or length? Do you know if they says something about this?


I don't recall. You can look them up - google on SEAS scoliosis. They have a huge text they link to from their front page, and I *think* this is in there somewhere.

[flerc]

Thanks, I'm looking for it. In fact I never read much more about SEAS than the famous case study.

[hdugger]

Here's their main site - http://www.isico.it/ukcosa.htm

[hdugger]

And here's the graphic that shows their notion of the role of bones, ligaments, and muscles in scoliosis:

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/3/1/20/figure/F7

[hope404]

Brain !!!!

[flerc]

Here's their main site - http://www.isico.it/ukcosa.htm

thanks hdugger. It seems that SEAS is what the name means

[mamamax]

Brain !!!!

I did see an arrow pointing to that when standing ... maybe different when lying down. :D

Seriously though, it does look like the SEAS folks are on to something.

[flerc]

http://www.caringmedical.com/symptoms/condition.asp?condition_id=463

[flerc]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9854753

[rohrer01]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9854753

Awesome find, Flerc! This doesn't surprise me at all per our conversation. Could the elevated remodeling of the disc on the convex side be a result of the body trying to fill the gaps created by the curvature? I don't know how the publishers of this article can positively conclude that the discs are causing the curve. How would one go about actually proving that?

I think you should post this under the research section so some of the Ph.D.'s will comment on this one. ;)

[Pooka1]

If in doubt, I think the chiros are the guilty party for pretending to treat a condition for which they have no relevant training.

[rohrer01]

If in doubt, I think the chiros are the guilty party for pretending to treat a condition for which they have no relevant training.

:confused: How are chiros involved in this topic? Is it like in Scuby Doo, when they can't figure it out, they blame Red Herring?:p

[Pooka1]

:confused: How are chiros involved in this topic? Is it like in Scuby Doo, when they can't figure it out, they blame Red Herring?:p

Pretty much. :)

[titaniumed]

I've stumbled upon this abstract about discs. I find it interesting since I had 4 herniated discs at one point years ago....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16595436

Understanding histology takes time....Whew..

Understanding biochemistry and neurochemistry would be a big help in figuring out why scoliosis happens. Flerc, I don’t think its that simple as pointing to one specific area. Its a nice thought however.

And on the subject of Scooby Doo's, they sometimes get Wobbler disease.(Disc and vert problems)
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Dogge_Odin.jpg/250px-Dogge_Odin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jennifer_Dockery&usg=__aBUqP6JxIfr2aI1XpLFOd-fbees=&h=338&w=250&sz=29&hl=en&start=8&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Gha4kQe_b2_LVM:&tbnh=119&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgreat%2Bdane%2Bscoliosis%26um%3D1%26h l%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1

My contribution for today. LOL
Ed

[Pooka1]

I've stumbled upon this abstract about discs. I find it interesting since I had 4 herniated discs at one point years ago....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16595436

Understanding histology takes time....Whew..

Understanding biochemistry and neurochemistry would be a big help in figuring out why scoliosis happens. Flerc, I don’t think its that simple as pointing to one specific area. Its a nice thought however.

All this biochem and neurochem is rocket surgery. Not sure there is a more complex problem than some biomedical problems.


And on the subject of Scooby Doo's, they sometimes get Wobbler disease.(Disc and vert problems)
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Dogge_Odin.jpg/250px-Dogge_Odin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jennifer_Dockery&usg=__aBUqP6JxIfr2aI1XpLFOd-fbees=&h=338&w=250&sz=29&hl=en&start=8&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Gha4kQe_b2_LVM:&tbnh=119&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgreat%2Bdane%2Bscoliosis%26um%3D1%26h l%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1

My contribution for today. LOL
Ed

Nice animal. Horses get wobbles which is a neurological problem.

[flerc]

I've stumbled upon this abstract about discs. I find it interesting since I had 4 herniated discs at one point years ago....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16595436

Understanding histology takes time....Whew..

Understanding biochemistry and neurochemistry would be a big help in figuring out why scoliosis happens. Flerc, I don’t think its that simple as pointing to one specific area. Its a nice thought however.

And on the subject of Scooby Doo's, they sometimes get Wobbler disease.(Disc and vert problems)
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Dogge_Odin.jpg/250px-Dogge_Odin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jennifer_Dockery&usg=__aBUqP6JxIfr2aI1XpLFOd-fbees=&h=338&w=250&sz=29&hl=en&start=8&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Gha4kQe_b2_LVM:&tbnh=119&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgreat%2Bdane%2Bscoliosis%26um%3D1%26h l%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1

My contribution for today. LOL
Ed

Ed, maybe discs would be the more difficult to analyze, but I think it should to be known for instance, how much force is required to muscles to keep the spine straight, and how much is loosed in someone with IS. The same about all other suspected ones. I can not believe the ignorance may be so great.

[Pooka1]

I can not believe the ignorance may be so great.

I can.
.
.

[flerc]

if it's true, nobody knows nothing about anatomy.

[titaniumed]

Flerc

Yes, the amount of force and also the EMG readings between both sides.
This has to have been done....

If the EMG readings are lower on a weak muscle, then why? Does the electrical signal come all the way from the brain? Too bad we couldn’t program the brain for specific functions, like turning on the blood supply to the disc, to keep it from drying out as we age.

Too bad we couldn’t control cells. It would solve many issues....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh well, right now we really have to worry about controlling oil companies, and their greed before the oceans are destroyed.....I guess ignorance runs rampant, it is depressing.....

Some things are right out in front of us.
http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/659
Compress the air with solar.
Ed

[flerc]

Flerc

Yes, the amount of force and also the EMG readings between both sides.
This has to have been done....
Ed

Maybe you are right Ed, I don't know, but there not should to be any doubt about this. I think that muscle length is more relevant than strenght. It should not to be a debatable issue..

[rohrer01]

I think even if we all come to a consensus on which part is causing the most trouble, we still have the problem of finding someone capable of treating that area. Thus far, there aren't any nonsurgical cures that I've ever seen. We should all go out and get M.D.'s and Ph.D.'s and put our heads together and figure this out! :p LOL (just kidding, of course!)

[jrnyc]

i am now very concerned about Scooby getting wobbly...this will definitely keep me up at nite!

jess

[flerc]

I think even if we all come to a consensus on which part is causing the most trouble, we still have the problem of finding someone capable of treating that area. Thus far, there aren't any nonsurgical cures that I've ever seen.

it depends about what you consider a cure.

We should all go out and get M.D.'s and Ph.D.'s and put our heads together and figure this out! :p LOL (just kidding, of course!)

It would be interesting to see a group of scientist trying to solve her own problem!.. Surely we would start trying to know the answer to these elemental questions..

[rohrer01]

it depends about what you consider a cure.


It would be interesting to see a group of scientist trying to solve her own problem!.. Surely we would start trying to know the answer to these elemental questions..

A cure is reversal of the disease, not just stopping progression. What better people to work on the puzzle than ones who suffer from the affliction or parents of children who suffer? People that have it, know far more how it affects life quality than people who don't. ;)

Poor Scuby! Maybe that's why I don't see him on TV anymore. He got all wobbly!

[Pooka1]

it depends about what you consider a cure.


Hey Fer, what do you consider a cure?

I think it is a spine that is permanently straight and flexible.

The only thing we have now to accomplish that with the least doubt as to whether they are influencing the result are the non-fusion surgical techniques (VBS, VEPTR, growth rods, etc.)

Fusion gives straight but not flexible.

There is little evidence supporting anything else for permanent straight with flexibility.

[flerc]

Hey Fer, what do you consider a cure?

I think it is a spine that is permanently straight and flexible.

The only thing we have now to accomplish that with the least doubt as to whether they are influencing the result are the non-fusion surgical techniques (VBS, VEPTR, growth rods, etc.)

Fusion gives straight but not flexible.

There is little evidence supporting anything else for permanent straight with flexibility.

Hi Sharon, I do not think about cures, I think about a solution to a problem. I have specified the solution requirements and restrictions of my problem in my first thread: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10151&page=2 (03-05-2010, 09:13 AM)
Scientist are looking for something like a vaccine that probably not solve this problem, and those kind of techniques are used only during grow.

[flerc]

I have read that Total Disk replacement is used in lumbar scoliosis. I'm mistaken?
If only the replacement of discs in this kind of scoliosis leads to reduce the curve, it means that muscles, vertebras, ligaments.. has nothing to do. I´m mistaken?