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Pooka1
05-31-2010, 11:25 AM
The claims of Spinecor seem fantastical to this little bunny. You have a doctorate in muscle physiology. Can I ask you to weigh in on this issue?

1. Any brace including Spinecor, unless it is just hanging off the patient, necessarily is restricting motion. Yes/No?

2. Any brace including Spinecor, unless it is just hanging off the patient, if it instantly relieves pain, is taking over for muscle support. Yes/No?

3. Will muscle build or deteriorate if motion is restricted?

4. Will muscle build or deteriorate if a brace is taking over for some support previously provided by muscle?

5. What is the likely outcome of an adult wearing Spinecor for 2 years and then weaning off to NO brace wear? Wouldn't it be a rapid return to pre-brace conditions or worse due to the muscle deterioration?

6. What do you make of the claim of a "dynamic brace?" Does that have any technical meaning whatsoever? In the case of Spinecor, isn't it just repositioning the posture in a relatively loose way and taking over for muscle in doing so?

7. Anecdotally just on this group, Spinecor seems to have more efficacy in the short term for JIS than AIS. Is this due to the ability to position the younger spine more than the older spine? The interesting test is if the correction seen in the JIS years holds through the growth spurt. Some parents preemptively sense the inability of Spincecor to hold during this period and switch their kids to hard braes at that point. This is another point suggesting Spinecor is just a looser brace as opposed to a new and better concept.

Thanks in advance.

rohrer01
06-04-2010, 03:54 PM
Sorry Pooka, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I have a question, too. Would a spinecore brace limit motion and therefore cause atrophy, OR because of its stretchiness, would it be like resistance training and actually build muscle? Thanks!

hdugger
06-04-2010, 04:31 PM
Aren't we going both ways on the role of muscles in scoliosis? Either scoliosis is a bone disorder and muscles/exercise cannot halt the progression of curves, and therefore muscle atrophy would not play a role in progression. Or scoliosis is a bone/muscle disorder and muscles/exercise *can* halt progression, and therefore atrophy *would* play a role in progression.

If the loss of muscles speed progression, then doesn't it necessarily mean that building muscles strength slows progression?

Pooka1
06-04-2010, 05:33 PM
Sorry Pooka, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I have a question, too. Would a spinecore brace limit motion and therefore cause atrophy, OR because of its stretchiness, would it be like resistance training and actually build muscle? Thanks!

No that is not a hijack. Anyone who has a relevant question on muscle physiology should post it here. I'm a bit worried McIntire might get flashbacks to his thesis defense so I hope he doesn't feel obligated to answer any question.

I was considering bumping this thread up so he can see it but you saved me the trouble. Thanks. :)

As to your question, someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Spinecor is very stretchy and so it's not like working out with an exercise band. I think the claim it that it encourages the correct positioning of the spine through positioning of the torso.

Pooka1
06-04-2010, 05:44 PM
Aren't we going both ways on the role of muscles in scoliosis? Either scoliosis is a bone disorder and muscles/exercise cannot halt the progression of curves, and therefore muscle atrophy would not play a role in progression. Or scoliosis is a bone/muscle disorder and muscles/exercise *can* halt progression, and therefore atrophy *would* play a role in progression.

Until McIntire comes here to edify us bunnies, I will attempt an answer here. :D

I think scoliosis is a neurologic and(or) metabolic problem with a bone-remodeling cause or effect that results in loss of normal spine position. I think in periods other than the growth spurt, muscle can only rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic and only for so long. Abnormal or extra muscle mass during the growth spurt is a bit of an open question as far as I can tell.


If the loss of muscles speed progression, then doesn't it necessarily mean that building muscles strength slows progression?

I think muscle building can hide/delay progression but can't address the underlying drivers of the condition in any permanent way.

Cases like Hawes are a bit rarefied in that she was addressing her thoracic volume due to ancillary health concerns and was pleasantly surprised it seems by the reduction in her Cobb angle. She has an asymmetric/abnormal thoracic volume and her results are probably limited to others with that specific condition. As far as I know, the great run of T curves do not have that asymmetry nor any insufficient volume at the Cobb angle Hawes had/has. Thus her results are almost certainly irrelevant to anyone with a non-thoracic curve and non-abnormal thoracic cavity.

She did really changed her rib cage such that at least one reader felt the end vertebrae changed at some point. She seems to have accomplished the reduced Cobb angle by repositioning/expanding her ribs on one side through all manner of approaches.

hdugger
06-04-2010, 08:49 PM
I think muscle building can hide/delay progression but can't address the underlying drivers of the condition in any permanent way.

Wouldn't that therefore mean that muscle atrophy wouldn't have any affect on progression? So, there wouldn't be any "worse due to the muscle deterioration" in your hypothesis, since muscles don't play a role in progression.

Pooka1
06-04-2010, 09:48 PM
Wouldn't that therefore mean that muscle atrophy wouldn't have any affect on progression? So, there wouldn't be any "worse due to the muscle deterioration" in your hypothesis, since muscles don't play a role in progression.

Yes I think that's right w.r.t. atrophy. Muscle atrophy as in a brace or just not doing PT I think just allows the normal course of the progression if any progression is destined.

In the opposite direction, I think that muscle development, either just more of it or in an asymmetrical fashion to balance the spine asymmetry, can temporarily hold or hide some amount of any progression that might occur absent that.

hdugger
06-04-2010, 10:23 PM
In the opposite direction, I think that muscle development, either just more of it or in an asymmetrical fashion to balance the spine asymmetry, can temporarily hold or hide some amount of any progression that might occur absent that.

So, in the case of a person who manages to hold their curve steady with exercise with 5 years. When they stop exercising, do they quickly return to the curve they had before they started exercising? Or do they return to their curve plus the 5 years of progression they would have had had they not been holding their curve with exercise.

i.e., does the exercise nullify the progressing effect of gravity? Or is gravity remolding the curve in exactly the same way regardless of whether they're exercising or not.

Pooka1
06-05-2010, 08:15 AM
So, in the case of a person who manages to hold their curve steady with exercise with 5 years. When they stop exercising, do they quickly return to the curve they had before they started exercising? Or do they return to their curve plus the 5 years of progression they would have had had they not been holding their curve with exercise.

i.e., does the exercise nullify the progressing effect of gravity? Or is gravity remolding the curve in exactly the same way regardless of whether they're exercising or not.

I think we know for a fact that gravity is not the only factor in curve progression or lack of it. Consider that people come out of brace every 6 months and sometimes have progression (though compliance complicates that). Also Even people at 50* which is clearly into gravity enhancing territory can hang there for decades as we have seen in at least two cases here.

That one boy in McIntire's TRS study exercised - reduced the curve - stopped exercising - curve progressed - exercised - reduced the curve. We could ask if his curve was worse when he stopped exercising than when he started though that analysis has problems.

I think gravity can add to progression but the master driver is neurological and/or metabolic with complex hormonal triggers. The reason this nut hasn't been cracked it because it is so complex and seems to involve many systems. If the etiology involves complex feedback looping and multi-component cascades and all kinds of regulation from many factors then it is going to defy solution. Even something as seemingly simple as why an element, Lithium, helps manic depression still defies solution after all these years. And that it just an element. You'd think they could use a Li radioisotope and just trace it but there must be some problems with that or maybe an isotope doesn't exist with a useful half life.

And it's possible scoliosis might be a catchall for a few conditions given the range of signs and symptoms. The connective tissue ones seem to be clearly another animal for example. But most IS cases are benign and either never progress or resolve completely. Only the few ever become problematical. That's the context in which studies should occur as far as I can tell (which isn't far).

Pooka1
06-05-2010, 09:05 AM
Wouldn't that therefore mean that muscle atrophy wouldn't have any affect on progression? So, there wouldn't be any "worse due to the muscle deterioration" in your hypothesis, since muscles don't play a role in progression.

Clarifying this point...

In my original post I was referring to the rate of return to the programmed progression. In an atrophied state, it would be rapid. In a normal (non-PT state) it would be somewhat less rapid. In a PT state it would be slow or temporarily nonexistent. In a hyper-PT state, you might see a temporary regression.

Again, for the growth spurt case, these questions are somewhat open in my opinion due to lack of large datasets. PT is not an "alternative" treatment necessarily and is still in the "conservative" column for now for this group in my opinion.

skevimc
06-08-2010, 02:00 PM
Been away on vacation for the last week. :D

I'll answer from a purely muscle physiology standpoint as I know very little about the rationale for spinecor.


The claims of Spinecor seem fantastical to this little bunny. You have a doctorate in muscle physiology. Can I ask you to weigh in on this issue?

1. Any brace including Spinecor, unless it is just hanging off the patient, necessarily is restricting motion. Yes/No?


Yes.



2. Any brace including Spinecor, unless it is just hanging off the patient, if it instantly relieves pain, is taking over for muscle support. Yes/No?


Maybe. Relief of pain can come from assisting muscle or from a purely mechanical point of view. This is somewhat of a semantics argument and I think the answer for your intended meaning is "yes".



3. Will muscle build or deteriorate if motion is restricted?


Deteriorate outside of the restricted range of motion. It's possible that it could build within the restricted ROM, but there would need to be specific effort.



4. Will muscle build or deteriorate if a brace is taking over for some support previously provided by muscle?


If nothing is done to prevent it, the muscles will certainly atrophy.



5. What is the likely outcome of an adult wearing Spinecor for 2 years and then weaning off to NO brace wear? Wouldn't it be a rapid return to pre-brace conditions or worse due to the muscle deterioration?


Assuming no other countermeasures are taken, e.g. muscle strengthening/re-training, I would think it would return to the previous condition.



6. What do you make of the claim of a "dynamic brace?" Does that have any technical meaning whatsoever? In the case of Spinecor, isn't it just repositioning the posture in a relatively loose way and taking over for muscle in doing so?


This question is interesting. I'm answering these in order and not looking ahead to the next question. As I've answered some of them I have thought "unless there is some type of dynamic bracing". I would say that dynamic bracing does have a technical meaning but whether or not a product holds up to that meaning is the issue. A brace could prevent range of motion for various reasons, after knee surgery for example, so this brace acts to protect the repaired ligaments, i.e. mechanical, but offers little muscular support. This would allow the muscles to function and strengthen after surgery while providing mechanical support. This is what I would consider dynamic. The opposite would be a static brace as with a cast; essentially allowing no functional movement.



7. Anecdotally just on this group, Spinecor seems to have more efficacy in the short term for JIS than AIS. Is this due to the ability to position the younger spine more than the older spine? The interesting test is if the correction seen in the JIS years holds through the growth spurt. Some parents preemptively sense the inability of Spincecor to hold during this period and switch their kids to hard braes at that point. This is another point suggesting Spinecor is just a looser brace as opposed to a new and better concept.

Thanks in advance.

Hmm... So I can't really speak to Spinecor rationale specifically. But I would think that, even if it is a sound concept, a 'loose' fitting brace doesn't offer the relative peace of mind that a rigid brace might offer. This is more of a societal perception/bias though. I think exercise therapy gets the same bias. I've left physiology at this point so I'll stop my answer.

There is one exception I see for some of these answers. In joints that are experiencing pain, muscles will tense up and become dysfunctional. Applying a brace could help the muscles relax thus allowing proper function once the pain subsides. Kind of like the reasons muscle relaxers are prescribed. The spasm causes pain, so remove the spasm which removes the pain. I think of tennis elbow straps or patella tendon straps. These are applied in order to relive pain and allow the muscles to relax and reduce inflammation of the painful area.

Overall though, the body will learn to depend on any additional support it gets regardless of the joint. Dynamic or static bracing would all need some type of additional and intentional training in order to really improve the situation. I would be skeptical to view a brace alone as a treatment. Although certainly can be a very helpful tool.

I see that there are other questions. I'll get to them

Pooka1
06-08-2010, 06:18 PM
1,000 thank yous for fielding those questions! I hope you had a great vacation and sorry you had to return to another dissertation defense. :eek::)



6. What do you make of the claim of a "dynamic brace?" Does that have any technical meaning whatsoever? In the case of Spinecor, isn't it just repositioning the posture in a relatively loose way and taking over for muscle in doing so?


This question is interesting. I'm answering these in order and not looking ahead to the next question. As I've answered some of them I have thought "unless there is some type of dynamic bracing". I would say that dynamic bracing does have a technical meaning but whether or not a product holds up to that meaning is the issue. A brace could prevent range of motion for various reasons, after knee surgery for example, so this brace acts to protect the repaired ligaments, i.e. mechanical, but offers little muscular support. This would allow the muscles to function and strengthen after surgery while providing mechanical support. This is what I would consider dynamic. The opposite would be a static brace as with a cast; essentially allowing no functional movement.

Wow I may have actually understood that distinction! Good explanation.

Now while it is relatively easy imagine that a dynamic brace can work that way on a knee, is there some known way that a body brace like Spinecor can possibly function in a way that protects one thing (correct spine position) while furnishing less/no muscle support or otherwise restricting ROM? I suggest the testimonials on youtube and on this group of instant pain relief suggest that they are taking over for weary muscle. And for the great run of kids with no pain prior to wearing Spinecor, it seems like it must operate in the same way. That is, Spinecor can't sense if there is pain or not and work differently depending on that answer.


7. Anecdotally just on this group, Spinecor seems to have more efficacy in the short term for JIS than AIS. Is this due to the ability to position the younger spine more than the older spine? The interesting test is if the correction seen in the JIS years holds through the growth spurt. Some parents preemptively sense the inability of Spincecor to hold during this period and switch their kids to hard braes at that point. This is another point suggesting Spinecor is just a looser brace as opposed to a new and better concept.


Hmm... So I can't really speak to Spinecor rationale specifically. But I would think that, even if it is a sound concept, a 'loose' fitting brace doesn't offer the relative peace of mind that a rigid brace might offer. This is more of a societal perception/bias though. I think exercise therapy gets the same bias. I've left physiology at this point so I'll stop my answer.

There is one exception I see for some of these answers. In joints that are experiencing pain, muscles will tense up and become dysfunctional. Applying a brace could help the muscles relax thus allowing proper function once the pain subsides. Kind of like the reasons muscle relaxers are prescribed. The spasm causes pain, so remove the spasm which removes the pain. I think of tennis elbow straps or patella tendon straps. These are applied in order to relive pain and allow the muscles to relax and reduce inflammation of the painful area.

This is what Spinecor is addressing in the adult population in my opinion and why they claim only (potential) pain relief for this crowd.


Overall though, the body will learn to depend on any additional support it gets regardless of the joint. Dynamic or static bracing would all need some type of additional and intentional training in order to really improve the situation. I would be skeptical to view a brace alone as a treatment. Although certainly can be a very helpful tool.

Well I see Spinecor is agreeing with you on this now.

http://www.spinecorporation.com/English/PatientInformation/spinecorphysiotherapyprogram.htm

They are claiming you have to do their exercises and ONLY their exercises. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the previous claim was that the brace itself was such that exercises were unnecessary because it was a dynamic brace. I guess they had to abandon that claim what with the Spinecor brace actually being a brace and all.

Back-out
06-08-2010, 07:16 PM
Pooka

They are claiming you have to do their exercises and ONLY their exercises. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the previous claim was that the brace itself was such that exercises were unnecessary because it was a dynamic brace. I guess they had to abandon that claim what with the Spinecor brace actually being a brace and all.
__________________

No, as I understand it they encourage many forms of sports and exercise. Hence all their lit showing kid dancers etc.

As for the brace being enough, they DO want you to exercise, hence that's part of their fitting, I just didn't get that far. Didn't even (at the time) make the connection between the brace and the exercises.

Still do NOT see how it can help with advanced lumbar curves. :(

Pooka1
06-08-2010, 07:33 PM
Pooka


No, as I understand it they encourage many forms of sports and exercise. Hence all their lit showing kid dancers etc.

As I understand the previous claims, they say you can continue these activities in this brace if you like. They didn't claim VERY specific exercises were necessary as they now claim. The blowback must have be huge for them to change positions on that.

mamamax
06-09-2010, 06:04 AM
In looking for answers to the original proposed questions ... I'd be interested in what someone with an in-depth knowledge on the subject at hand may say about all this. Someone like: Charles H. Rivard, M.D. Now that, would be interesting - and probably more accurate than speculation from those without any specific experience in the mechanics of a bracing system that remains ... little understood by the lay community ;-)

Pooka1
06-09-2010, 06:08 AM
In looking for answers to the original proposed questions ... I'd be interested in what someone with an in-depth knowledge on the subject at hand may say about all this. Someone like: Charles H. Rivard, M.D. Now that, would be interesting - and probably more accurate than speculation from those without any specific experience in the mechanics of a bracing system that remains ... little understood by the lay community ;-)

He's a surgeon who has a financial interest in the brace. His training is in surgery, not orthotics or PT or muscle physiology.

His input would shed no light at all on the questions as far as I can tell and might even be irrationally exuberant due to his financial interest.

mamamax
06-09-2010, 06:27 AM
He's a surgeon who has a financial interest in the brace. His training is in surgery, not orthotics or PT or muscle physiology.

His input would shed no light at all on the questions as far as I can tell and might even be irrationally exuberant due to his financial interest.

ok ... he has a financial interest as an inventor, maybe - so?

Now, the knowledge that he brings into his work, based on his medical education and practice (yes, as an SRS surgeon), coupled his deep desire to avoid surgery if at all possible ... makes him someone I want to hear from.

Anyway - putting you back on my ignore list. Parting thought: If you want the best information available (on any given subject), go to the source. If you don't want the best information ... well, then - don't go to the source ;-)

Pooka1
06-09-2010, 12:12 PM
Anyway - putting you back on my ignore list.

That's best. You have struggled with the factual nature of my posts for a very long time. And next time don't take me off your ignore list again.

Pooka1
06-10-2010, 06:00 AM
- and probably more accurate than speculation from those without any specific experience in the mechanics of a bracing system that remains ... little understood by the lay community

It remains little understood by the inventor also and proof would be that they changed their claim of no PT being necessary (if that is correct).

In other words, they finally realized the Spinecor brace was actually a brace. Better late than never to the party. As far as I know, surgeons have little to no training in orthotics, muscle physiology, physical training, etc. so we can't expect them to know these things.

skevimc
06-10-2010, 07:19 AM
...As far as I know, surgeons have little to no training in orthotics, muscle physiology, physical training, etc. so we can't expect them to know these things.

In defense of doctors and the entrepreneurial spirit, they are more than capable of learning these things and/or working with and finding people that do. Many of us in the rehab/physiology field are contacted by inventors and physicians from time to time asking for expertise and advice. Not defending Spinecor. But want to point out that not having formal training in something does not make you incapable of learning it.

jillw
06-10-2010, 09:45 AM
Sharon, Just to clarify...the inventors did NOT change their claim. All along they have said that physical activity is critical for the success of the brace. For example, unlike hard braces where the brace may have to be taken off for physical activity, spinecor recommends that you WEAR the brace during your activity and use your out of brace time for your more sedentary moments. They have never prescribed specific exercises, just recommended the more physical activity the better.

Spinecorporation is the UK based company that sells the brace, etc. THEY are the ones that prescribe specific exercises. THEY are the ones that seem to be marketing more to chiropractors. Spinecorporation is NOT Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard.

I don't know what the specific arrangement is between the two...whether spinecorporation has a licensing agreement with the inventors, whether the inventors "sold" the technology/patents to spinecorporation altogether, or whether the inventors retained some minority ownership interest in spinecorporation. Nonetheless, I get a VERY strong impression they are more a user of spinecor for their patients and certainly consult back and forth with Spinecorporation, but are not running Spinecorporation. Therefore although Dr. Rivard has not changed his position that general physical activity and not specific physical exercises are required, Spinecorporation has their own opinion that these physical exercises would help the brace do its work.

tonibunny
06-10-2010, 10:41 AM
That's interesting, Jill!

In the UK, the Spinecor is not available on the NHS *apart* from at one hospital (in Sheffield) as far as I know. I believe that the doctor there is something to do with the Spinecorporation. There is one private clinic in London that offers the brace, and again that seems to be run by the Spinecorporation. There are no chiropractors offering the brace in the UK, but then, chiros are not regarded as doctors here.

I know a couple of children who have used the brace in the UK but they have never mentioned being prescribed specific exercises. One of these children was also doing a host of other treatments and things, including torso rotation exercises, which her father felt would be beneficial.

That was a couple of years or so back though - maybe they have brought in an exercise regime since then?

Pooka1
06-10-2010, 11:33 AM
In defense of doctors and the entrepreneurial spirit, they are more than capable of learning these things and/or working with and finding people that do. Many of us in the rehab/physiology field are contacted by inventors and physicians from time to time asking for expertise and advice. Not defending Spinecor. But want to point out that not having formal training in something does not make you incapable of learning it.

Good point that reinforces my point that surgeons seek out PhD research guys for the straight dope on these matters because they have no formal training themselves.

Pooka1
06-10-2010, 11:43 AM
Sharon, Just to clarify...the inventors did NOT change their claim. All along they have said that physical activity is critical for the success of the brace. For example, unlike hard braces where the brace may have to be taken off for physical activity, spinecor recommends that you WEAR the brace during your activity and use your out of brace time for your more sedentary moments. They have never prescribed specific exercises, just recommended the more physical activity the better.

Okay I stand corrected. I clearly don't know the specifics of anything related to Spinecor.


Spinecorporation is the UK based company that sells the brace, etc. THEY are the ones that prescribe specific exercises. THEY are the ones that seem to be marketing more to chiropractors. Spinecorporation is NOT Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard.

Do you know how long have they been suggesting specific exercises? And what is the evidence only those exercises work and other activity does not? It seems to me if Rivard is telling folks just do any and all physical activity in the brace then that is at odds with Spinecor's claim of needing to do specific exercises. In reality, neither Rivard nor Spinecor likely have a lick of evidence for their position/claim.

And I'm very sure they probably didn't choose to market to chiros! I think they were blindsided by the almost total lack of surgeons prescribing the brace and so had to settle for dealing with chiros. I think they assumed all hard braces would be replaced by Spinecor by now. Until surgeons start believing their data, though, that won't happen.

That said, over on Fix's site, there is a claim that an Australian chiro is running the "research" group at Spinecor. I can't confirm/deny that but if that is true then maybe they would also market to chiros even if surgeons prescribed the brace. And the concept of putting a chiro in charge of a research group is ridiculous.


I don't know what the specific arrangement is between the two...whether spinecorporation has a licensing agreement with the inventors, whether the inventors "sold" the technology/patents to spinecorporation altogether, or whether the inventors retained some minority ownership interest in spinecorporation. Nonetheless, I get a VERY strong impression they are more a user of spinecor for their patients and certainly consult back and forth with Spinecorporation, but are not running Spinecorporation. Therefore although Dr. Rivard has not changed his position that general physical activity and not specific physical exercises are required, Spinecorporation has their own opinion that these physical exercises would help the brace do its work.

Okay very good to know. Thanks for your input.

mamamax
06-10-2010, 06:03 PM
Sharon, Just to clarify...the inventors did NOT change their claim. All along they have said that physical activity is critical for the success of the brace. For example, unlike hard braces where the brace may have to be taken off for physical activity, spinecor recommends that you WEAR the brace during your activity and use your out of brace time for your more sedentary moments. They have never prescribed specific exercises, just recommended the more physical activity the better.

Spinecorporation is the UK based company that sells the brace, etc. THEY are the ones that prescribe specific exercises. THEY are the ones that seem to be marketing more to chiropractors. Spinecorporation is NOT Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard.

I don't know what the specific arrangement is between the two...whether spinecorporation has a licensing agreement with the inventors, whether the inventors "sold" the technology/patents to spinecorporation altogether, or whether the inventors retained some minority ownership interest in spinecorporation. Nonetheless, I get a VERY strong impression they are more a user of spinecor for their patients and certainly consult back and forth with Spinecorporation, but are not running Spinecorporation. Therefore although Dr. Rivard has not changed his position that general physical activity and not specific physical exercises are required, Spinecorporation has their own opinion that these physical exercises would help the brace do its work.

Jillw - Thanks for the good information!

Iinformation below is from the original publication (also offered by SRS) – which has always been on the spinecor Manufacture’s web site as well.

Excellent PDF file for those who want source material .. too big a file to upload at NSF.

http://www.srs.org/search/?cx=015381214919528163032%3Ae3pnwtxxbmk&cof=FORID%3A11&q=SPINECOR#916

As for the qualifications of Rivard & Collaird regarding physical therapy, etc … I have no idea what their qualifications are – nor, can I imagine that anyone here has such information. I presume (and would bet) that in the research that went into the design of this brace – that both surrounded themselves with those who were expert in fields which they may not have been – that is what such professionals of their caliber do. It would be quite interesting to know the entire Spinecor story. Maybe someday someone will write about it.

Phone numbers and email addresses found in the original PDF file offered at SRS are included here for those current or perspective patients/parents who would like good source information, or for those who have questions.

TREATMENT
A specific corrective movement is performed, and the brace is applied according to the SpineCor Assistant Software instructions. The moderate tension in the elastic bands allows the repetition and amplification of the corrective movement as the child undertakes everyday activities. This results in a progressive curve reduction. The brace is worn 20 hours out of 24. The four hours out of the brace must not be taken at once, usually the patient divides them into two breaks: morning and evening. Sports are to be encouraged and done while wearing the brace. To obtain a neuro-muscular integration of the new strategy of movement, the average duration of the treatment is 18 months. Because of the progressive changes, absence of external support during the treatment, and intact muscles, there is no loss of correction after the brace discontinuation. Physical therapy is NOT a necessity in the SpineCor program (SpineCor itself may be considered a physiotherapy 20 hours out of 24). However, when the patient is willing to undergo a physio program, or a faster consolidation of the reduction of the curve is desired, the Global Postural Reeducation (GPR) program is considered. For the patients at the beginning of the treatment, the physio is carried out with the brace on; for the patients in the weaning period the exercises are done without the brace.


Dr. Charles H Rivard M.D.
Research Center, Sainte-Justine Hospital
3175 Côte Ste-Catherine
Montréal, Québec, Canada. H3T 1C5
Phone : (514) 345-2344.
E-mail :crivard@justine.umontreal.ca



Christine Coillard M.D.
Research Center, Sainte-Justine Hospital
3175 Côte Ste-Catherine
Montréal, Québec, Canada. H3T 1C5
Phone : (514) 345-4839
E-mail : ccoillard@justine.umontreal.ca

jillw
06-10-2010, 06:19 PM
Do you know how long have they been suggesting specific exercises?

Sharon, I don't know how long Spinecorporation has been suggesting specific exercises. I can tell you that when my daughter was first diagnosed in Fall 2007 that the Spinecorporation website was already saying that the brace should be combined with their exercise program.

Yes - it does conflict with Dr. Rivard (I don't know that he is against the exercise program - perhaps he just doesn't think its necessary). Then again, many doctors have their own opinions. As I mentioned, I really don't think that the inventors are that involved Spinecorporation (other than using their products - and I'm sure there is dialogue between the two, but I don't think the inventors are making the decisions regarding Spinecorporation. I wouldn't be surprised if they sold the patent or the rights a while ago and don't have a financial interest in it any more (or sold of much of it and have a minimum non controlling interest). The inventors simply wouldn't have the time to deal with all those issues - they run a clinic where they are busy seeing patient after patient with scoliosis....Dr. Rivard still does rounds at St. Justine, etc. Again, I don't KNOW the nature of the arrangement, just my conclusion based upon my observations while at Dr. Rivard/Coillard's clinic over the years, what I've read on Spinecorporations website and elsewhere and other conversations.

foofer
06-12-2010, 03:15 PM
Does anyone (Kevin? Linda? Anyone?)know what the curvature does in scolio patients when in an inverted position, i.e. gravity inversion table or in headstand position?

What about hanging upright from a chin-up bar? These are serious questions...sounds like zoo humor on re-reading this...

I know that lying in a prone position there is less curvature, so I am trying to exercise deeply during the down times of various classes.

Had a conversation with my mom recently when we were trying to determine which family members showed signs of scoliosis. She mentioned a cousin, now 87, who was told in childhood to hang from a bar for a certain length of time daily.

Of course it worked.

No, it didn't.

Maybe she would have looked a lot worse though. We'll never know.

Karen Ocker
06-12-2010, 03:30 PM
I did those things in the 1950's as a teen. It felt good but I ended up with a 100deg curve. Nothing helped me:chiro(got worse),hanging from a bar or the top of a door, swimming, ballet, sports..the rest is in my signature.

These things were tried in the 1800's because it seemed reasonable.

http://www.uihealthcare.com/depts/medmuseum/wallexhibits/scoliosis/history/treat1920.html

flerc
06-12-2010, 08:53 PM
Fed Machine seems to be wonderful, even in adults. http://www.sastre-roca.com/metodofed.html

LindaRacine
06-12-2010, 09:11 PM
Fed Machine seems to be wonderful, even in adults. http://www.sastre-roca.com/metodofed.html

That is exactly how the Copes brace worked, and it was meant to be worn full time. Hundreds (thousands?) were taken in by his fraudulent claims, and I've yet to hear about a single person who had a permanent reduction.

flerc
06-12-2010, 09:46 PM
That is exactly how the Copes brace worked, and it was meant to be worn full time. Hundreds (thousands?) were taken in by his fraudulent claims, and I've yet to hear about a single person who had a permanent reduction.

May be I'm not understanding you right.
Do you are suggesting that FED is a fraud?

Pooka1
06-12-2010, 09:49 PM
May be I'm not understanding you right.
Do you are suggesting that FED is a fraud?

It is a fraud if they claim it permanently reduces curves. Do they claim that?

LindaRacine
06-12-2010, 09:56 PM
May be I'm not understanding you right.
Do you are suggesting that FED is a fraud?

I suspect 100% of the treatments you have found on the internet are fraudulent.

There is no easy solution to structural scoliosis. The people that make these claims are preying on people like you, who want to believe there's an easy fix.

flerc
06-12-2010, 09:57 PM
It is a fraud if they claim it permanently reduces curves. Do they claim that?

I did not read the book but probably Ph. Sastre claim that, I'm not sure. He told about amazing reductions after one year of treatment. Why it is a fraud if he claim it?

Pooka1
06-12-2010, 09:58 PM
I did not read the book but probably Ph. Sastre claim that, I'm not sure. He told about amazing reductions after one year of treatment. Why it is a fraud if he claim it?

Because unless he has proof he is lying. (ETA or mistaken. But about 100% of these alternative purveyors are lying because they never present proof so they know it doesn't work.

flerc
06-12-2010, 10:04 PM
i suspect 100% of the treatments you have found on the internet are fraudulent.

There is no easy solution to structural scoliosis. The people that make these claims are preying on people like you, who want to believe there's an easy fix.

what do you know what i want to believe?? Who do you think that you are? Which are your credits for judge people and for speak about scoliosis?
If you your knowledge is so great, explain me now in a scientist way why fed can not work!!

flerc
06-12-2010, 10:13 PM
Because unless he has proof he is lying. (ETA or mistaken. But about 100% of these alternative purveyors are lying because they never present proof so they know it doesn't work.

Sharon, I don't know if it is true. He tall about great improvements, but wait.. LindaRacine will tell us a scientist reason that only someone with her great knoledge coud give!

Pooka1
06-12-2010, 10:21 PM
Sharon, I don't know if it is true. He tall about great improvements,

Talk is worthless. He has to show before and after x-rays of PROOF that the method permanently reduced curves.

So far, NO alternative method has ever done that. We know this is the case because they are still doing fusions. If these methods worked there would be no fusions and everyone would reduce their curve permanently without surgery.

In fact there is NO evidence anyone has ever reduced their curve permanently with anything except fusion.

If people have proof then why don't they show it? If they have it then why are they hiding it?

flerc
06-12-2010, 10:33 PM
Talk is worthless. He has to show before and after x-rays of PROOF that the method permanently reduced curves.

So far, NO alternative method has ever done that. We know this is the case because they are still doing fusions. If these methods worked there would be no fusions and everyone would reduce their curve permanently without surgery.

In fact there is NO evidence anyone has ever reduced their curve permanently with anything except fusion.

If people have proof then why don't they show it? If they have it then why are they hiding it?

Sharon, he showed a lot of x-rays as I posted in other threads. He says that only works during growth and he never said it works 100% of cases.
But it should to be a scientist proof that it can not works, not only signs.
I'm waiting for LindaRacine explanation.. I don't want to believe she is as I think she is every time she makes a comment! May be her great knowledge and intelligence leads she to think we are stupids.

Pooka1
06-13-2010, 07:47 AM
Sharon, he showed a lot of x-rays as I posted in other threads. He says that only works during growth and he never said it works 100% of cases.

Can you show me the thread please or teh site with x-rays? Gracias.


But it should to be a scientist proof that it can not works, not only signs.
I'm waiting for LindaRacine explanation.. I don't want to believe she is as I think she is every time she makes a comment! May be her great knowledge and intelligence leads she to think we are stupids.

There is a difference between:

1. intelligence (ability to think logically and independently), and

2. knowledge (knowing facts).

Intelligent people can be ignorant of facts. Non-intelligent people can know facts. It's not the same.

While Linda certainly seems intelligent, she is also extremely knowledgeable about the situation on the ground with scoliosis.

flerc
06-13-2010, 08:37 AM
http://www.sastre-roca.com/casospracticos.html


people like you, who want to believe there's an easy fix.

As I said once, something like this only applies to someone not very smart or with an intellectually poor training or desperate.
Well, her education allow her to do such kind of comments, but someone so smart would never says that someone is a fraudster as she is saying that Sastre is unless she can prove it.
So I still await her scientific explanation. Otherwise I'll have to think that she is the fraud, not the invention of this scientist.

Pooka1
06-13-2010, 09:54 AM
Sharon, he showed a lot of x-rays as I posted in other threads. He says that only works during growth and he never said it works 100% of cases.

Does he say it can produce a permanent reduction in the curve or do you have to do the treatment the rest of your life?

Many PT and brace treatments produce temporary reductions. That is not useful when comparing to surgery. The only useful result is if it produces a permanent reduction like surgery does.

If it produces a permanent reduction in curves then it is the first non-surgical treatment to ever do that and the inventor needs a Nobel Prize in physiology/medicine. But we don't see that.

flerc
06-13-2010, 10:58 AM
I can not believe surgeon can be fraudsters as LindaRaicine refers to Sastre. They say that brace may be a solution by itself, not only to delay surgery. May be they have not idea about what they are doing and all her knowledge is limited to surgery?
I know people telling me about a really significant reduction remaining at over 10 years after the brace removing, so I can not believe it. We should to wait until her death to be sure, I know, but I have not so many time and this are good signs for me.
So if braces can work sometimes and sometimes not as surgeons say, why can not be that the some occurs with something else like Fed?
I think there are very good signs to believe in it. I don’t believe that an invention working some times and some times not as brace does, needs a Nobel Prize.
But all those signs interpretation are of course debatable, we can not prove anything as surely LindaRicene could, so wait for her great explanation. When I'll read it I'll advice some parents I know who are having great outcomes with Fed.

LindaRacine
06-13-2010, 10:58 AM
what do you know what i want to believe?? Who do you think that you are? Which are your credits for judge people and for speak about scoliosis?
If you're not wanting to believe in all these therapies, why do you post them?


If you your knowledge is so great, explain me now in a scientist way why fed can not work!!
http://www.scoliosislinks.com/AlternativesDontWork.htm

LindaRacine
06-13-2010, 10:59 AM
When I'll read it I'll advice some parents I know who are having great outcomes with Fed.

I would LOVE to see some proof.

flerc
06-13-2010, 02:57 PM
If you're not wanting to believe in all these therapies, why do you post them?


I don’t know how your brain works, but surely so different that mine.
If I posts about some therapies is not because I'm trying to believe in them but mainly because I'm trying to understand the principles behind them, talking about this with other people. I only want to know the truth, not to heard what obviously I hope that truth might be. Do you think that someone could have any interest in wasting time doing something like this? What a poor concept of some people do you have!


http://www.scoliosislinks.com/AlternativesDontWork.htm


Maybe this article demonstrate that Fed is absolutely unuseful in adults, I don’t know. I’m not sure if really all adults has a terrible vertebrae wedge, but may be you are right, so not brace and surely nothing else could works in adults as I have heard about Fed (at least reducig pain) so few months ago.
But you referred to Fed as a fraud. It belongs to the 100% of therapies I have posted something, so you must to be sure it's a fraud before saying it, and you must to know that Sastre says it works during growth.
So you must to have a great explanation about this.


I would LOVE to see some proof.

This is the great explanation???
You should try to justify your ideas instead of trying to disqualify to others.
If your education, knowledge, intelligence.. mainly EDUCATION not allow you to make comments in other way, as I have seen several times before, please don't make comments any more. Try to just only paste interesting links as you did now or adding also some technical comment. It would be fine to the health of this great Forum and all his members!

If you see that I'll never responds to you any more, you can be sure it is because I have not time to waste as I'm doing now.

Pooka1
06-13-2010, 03:16 PM
If I posts about some therapies is not because I'm trying to believe in them but mainly because I'm trying to understand the principles behind them, talking about this with other people. I only want to know the truth, not to heard what obviously I hope that truth might be.

Fer, the truth is there has never been a conservative or alternative therapy that has been proven to permanently reduce a curve yet. If one day it happens, that news will be all over the place, on the front page on the NY Times (above the fold) and that person will get the next Nobel.

The way I monitor success in conservative and alternative scoliosis treatments is to always check the yearly winners of the Nobel in physiology/medicine. If there are no people who invented or discovered a non-surgical scoliosis treatment to permanently reduce curves then there is still none.

I hope this helps you save time reviewing all these non-surgical treatments.

mamamax
06-13-2010, 04:30 PM
There just is nothing like doing even a tiny little bit of research before condemning a therapy/procedure. Good find flerc.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15456046

Idiopathic scoliosis under 30 degrees in growing patients. A comparative study of the F.E.D. method and other conservative treatments.

Lapuente JP, Sastre S, Barrios C.

Centro Fisioterapéutico de Zaragoza, Maria Moliner, 50-52, 50007 Zaragoza.
Abstract

PROBLEM ADDRESSED: Treatment of scoliosis under 30 degrees Cobb in growing patients remains controversial. Different orthopaedic devices have been developed and used with satisfactory results, alone or in combination with a variety of physiotherapy programs. The F.E.D. method is a dynamic three-dimensional therapy consisting in the application of derotational forces under spine stretching. This method offers some advantages over conventional conservative treatment for scoliosis: shorter treatment period, no use of plasters in many cases, better psychological tolerance, etc. PURPOSE OF THE WORK: In this work, the results of the F.E.D. method were compared to other conservative treatment techniques in scoliosis under 30 degrees Cobb angle and Risser 3 or less. RESEARCH METHOD: Both the F.E.D. group and the group of patients treated by traditional orthopaedic methods included 30 children. Patients were divided on the basis of the type of scoliotic deformity: thoracic, thoracolumbar or lumbar. SUMMARY OF RESULTS AND FINDINGS: The results obtained showed that patients treated with the F.E.D. method had a significantly better outcome than the other methods in terms of angle correction and shorter period of treatment necessary to reach correction. CONCLUSION: The F.E.D. method can be considered as the elective treatment in growing adolescents with scoliosis under 30 degrees.

mamamax
06-13-2010, 05:42 PM
Flerc - Like many of us you explore everything you can find. I have very much enjoyed your efforts in that area. I am always exploring too.

FED seems a very interesting subject. I have written to the people you referenced to ask more about their method ... anyone with an inquiring mind could do the same ;-) http://www.sastre-roca.com/contacto.html

Also found this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15456047

Stud Health Technol Inform. 2002;88:270-8.
Benefits of F.E.D. treatment in Scheuermann's disease.
Sastre S, Lapuente JP, Barrios C.
Centro de Rehabilitación y Medicina Física, Aribau 298-30, 08006 Barcelona.

Abstract

PROBLEM ADDRESSED: Scheuermann's disease or deforming vertebral osteochondritis affects about 5% of the population. These patients become permanent users of rehabilitation services due to their discomfort. In periods of acute pain patients can only receive palliative and not very effective treatment. PURPOSE OF THE WORK: In this study 30 patients who fulfil the criteria for diagnosis of Scheuermann's disease were treated with the F.E.D. device. By using this method, a back pressure of up to 100 kg can be applied at the apex of the kyphosis, stretching the anterior common vertebral ligament in an attempt to diminish complaint. RESEARCH METHOD: There were 14 men and 16 women with ages ranging from 15 to 35 years old. The mean kyphotic angle was 53 degrees (range, 45-65). Patients had an average Risser of 4.75 (range, 3-5). Schöber's test disclosed a range of values from 0 to 2.5 cm (mean, 0.78). The average period of treatment was 4 months (80 sessions of treatment). SUMMARY OF RESULTS AND FINDINGS: All the 30 patients referred disappearance of thoracic back pain after treatment. This pain relief effect was permanent for the time of follow-up. Kyphotic angle decreased from a mean of 30 degrees Cobb to 45 degrees (16% correction). A home physiotherapy program was recommended to all the patients in order to maintain dorsal elasticity as measured by Schöber's test. After treatment, the mean Schöber test value was 2.92. In cases treated during the growing period, where alterations in the spine were minimal or did not show radiographic alterations, progression of the kyphotic deformity was stopped. CONCLUSION: The F.E.D. device has shown to be a promising method both for the treatment of complaints in stabilised Scheuermann's disease and control of the progression of kyphotic deformity in the growing spine.

Pooka1
06-13-2010, 05:45 PM
There just is nothing like doing even a tiny little bit of research before condemning a therapy/procedure. Good find flerc.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15456046

Idiopathic scoliosis under 30 degrees in growing patients. A comparative study of the F.E.D. method and other conservative treatments.

Lapuente JP, Sastre S, Barrios C.

Centro Fisioterapéutico de Zaragoza, Maria Moliner, 50-52, 50007 Zaragoza.
Abstract

PROBLEM ADDRESSED: Treatment of scoliosis under 30 degrees Cobb in growing patients remains controversial. Different orthopaedic devices have been developed and used with satisfactory results, alone or in combination with a variety of physiotherapy programs. The F.E.D. method is a dynamic three-dimensional therapy consisting in the application of derotational forces under spine stretching. This method offers some advantages over conventional conservative treatment for scoliosis: shorter treatment period, no use of plasters in many cases, better psychological tolerance, etc. PURPOSE OF THE WORK: In this work, the results of the F.E.D. method were compared to other conservative treatment techniques in scoliosis under 30 degrees Cobb angle and Risser 3 or less. RESEARCH METHOD: Both the F.E.D. group and the group of patients treated by traditional orthopaedic methods included 30 children. Patients were divided on the basis of the type of scoliotic deformity: thoracic, thoracolumbar or lumbar. SUMMARY OF RESULTS AND FINDINGS: The results obtained showed that patients treated with the F.E.D. method had a significantly better outcome than the other methods in terms of angle correction and shorter period of treatment necessary to reach correction. CONCLUSION: The F.E.D. method can be considered as the elective treatment in growing adolescents with scoliosis under 30 degrees.

This is short term and irrelevant to the long term unless they show it.

And do they have to continue the treatment for life?

And did they have a control group?

Mainly, this study was published in 2002. Eight years ago. Why do you suppose it hasn't revolutionized scoliosis treament in all those ensuing years? I suggest it is related to the lack of a permanent curve reduction when treatment is stopped. If it prevented even a single surgery we would know about it by now I think.

hdugger
06-13-2010, 05:47 PM
Very interesting, mamamax. Thanks for finding the research.

mamamax
06-13-2010, 06:02 PM
hdugger - You're welcome. I look forward to some correspondence with the folks in Spain. And I'd like to take the opportunity to thank you for all your great research, and input on this board :-)

flerc
06-13-2010, 08:35 PM
And do they have to continue the treatment for life?


No, without any doubt. The use for adults is something 'extra' emerging I think a very short time ago in Spain.

flerc
06-13-2010, 08:40 PM
Flerc - [COLOR="Navy"]Like many of us you explore everything you can find. I have very much enjoyed your efforts in that area. I am always exploring too.


Thanks mamamax, I enjoy very much all your efforts too, like this research!

mamamax
06-13-2010, 08:52 PM
Thanks mamamax, I enjoy very much all your efforts too, like this research!

You are welcome flerc.

Talk about research efforts - Dingo takes the prize this night :-)

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?p=101378#post101378

Lorraine 1966
06-13-2010, 11:34 PM
For those to remove their blinkers I think "Concerned dad" hit the nail on the head. He deserved the prize months ago.

That means found out the truth in the end after intense research. I shudder to think about other countries beside Spain are in on the band wagon. Linda Racine can certainly look after herself as far as comments go but personally I don't see any need for her to even have to, her knowledge speaks for itself. Anyone who cares to find all this out I know will agree with me.

As usual Sharon I applaud you.

Lorraine McIntyre( had a bit of a giggle at my last name bit of a different spelling)

Pooka1
06-14-2010, 05:24 AM
For those to remove their blinkers I think "Concerned dad" hit the nail on the head. He deserved the prize months ago.

Agreed. His contributions to this forum will stand forever. Truly an open-minded guy who doesn't blink in the face of evidence (or lack of it). That takes guts.


Lorraine McIntyre( had a bit of a giggle at my last name bit of a different spelling)

Hey! I'll start a thread entitled, "Questions for Lorraine McIntyre" if you like. :)

mamamax
06-14-2010, 05:55 AM
For those to remove their blinkers I think "Concerned dad" hit the nail on the head. He deserved the prize months ago.


Hey Lorraine :-) I do hope CD is here and reading this (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?p=101411#post101411). There is much hope for the future ... I think he would agree.

Lorraine 1966
06-16-2010, 01:24 AM
Ha,ha thanks Sharon, but shall I say very sweetly and smiling "I will decline" thank you. Richard Feynman, WOW, JUST LOVE THAT QUOTE.

Maxine, I do wish CD was still around, very much so. I would love to see how things are going with him,and his family, also, I think he would appreciate that he is still remembered fondly and with admiration, anyhow back to the subject which I am thoroughly enjoying reading.


Lorraine.

mamamax
06-16-2010, 04:55 AM
Maxine, I do wish CD was still around, very much so. I would love to see how things are going with him,and his family, also, I think he would appreciate that he is still remembered fondly and with admiration, anyhow back to the subject which I am thoroughly enjoying reading.


Lorraine.

Me too! I can't imagine that anyone didn't have an affinity for CD - he was quick to praise good thinking, and had a good eye for woeful errors. And he was one to never humiliate or diminish another. Good man, Good role model & Much missed!