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flerc
05-05-2010, 08:39 PM
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j1tk2k12q20606v1/

aterry
05-06-2010, 11:23 AM
Thanks for posting this. I'm impressed that you are looking into a variety of research topics.

skevimc
05-06-2010, 12:27 PM
Wow!. That's an interesting study. Their results are pretty amazing. I don't know a bunch about MEP or what the delayed onset might mean but their statistical significance is fairly convincing.

Dingo
05-06-2010, 03:12 PM
Skevimc

I've got a short question.

From the study:

A defective sensory input or an anomalous sensorimotor integration may lead to an abnormal postural tone and therefore the development of a spine deformity.

Is that shorthand for strength asymmetry? If so I'm going to do a cartwheel in front of my desk. :)

Dingo
05-06-2010, 03:20 PM
This is from the study

The aetiology of idiopathic scoliosis (IS) remains unknown; however, there is a growing body of evidence suggesting that the spine deformity could be the expression of a subclinical nervous system disorder.


Therefore, the study of cortico-cortical inhibition may shed some insight into the dystonia hypothesis regarding the pathophysiology of IS.

Time to hit Google...

Wiki: Dystonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystonia)

Dystonia is a neurological movement disorder, in which sustained muscle contractions cause twisting and repetitive movements or abnormal postures.

Wiktionary: Subclinical (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/subclinical)

Of a disease or injury, without signs and symptoms that are detectable by physical examination or laboratory test; not clinically manifest.

So essentially they are speculating that AIS is triggered by a type of Dystonia that has no obvious symptoms.

Dingo
05-06-2010, 03:35 PM
A prevalence study of primary dystonia in eight European countries (http://www.springerlink.com/content/vpwfy3ptqfv7ny1w/)


Abstract There have been few epidemiological studies of dystonia. Most previous studies have provided estimates based on few cases. A European prevalence study was undertaken to provide more precise rates of dystonia by pooling data from eight European countries. Diagnosed cases were ascertained by adult neurologists with specialist movement disorders (and botulinum toxin) clinics. The crude annual period prevalence rate (1996–1997) for primary dystonia was 152 per million (95% confidence interval 142–162), with focal dystonia having the highest rate of 117 per million (108–126). Prevalence rates for cervical dystonia, blepharospasm and writer's cramp were as follows: 57 (95% confidence interval 51–63), 36 (31–41), and 14 (11–17). The age-adjusted relative rates were significantly higher in women than in men for segmental and focus dystonias with the exception of writer's cramp. Comparing rates between centres demonstrated significant variations for cervical dystonia, blepharospasm and writer's cramp, probably due to methodological differences. Our results provide the first data on the prevalence of primary dystonia and its subtypes across several European countries. Due to under-ascertainment of cases, our rates should be seen as conservative and an under-estimate of the true prevalence of dystonia.

Like most genetic diseases that hit children and young people Primary (clinical) Dystonia is a rare condition. It appears to be caused by a mutated version of the gene called DYT1.

Dystonias Caused by DYT1 Gene Mutation (http://www.wemove.org/dys/dys_ddyt1.html)

skevimc
05-06-2010, 04:11 PM
Is that shorthand for strength asymmetry? If so I'm going to do a cartwheel in front of my desk. :)

As I read it, no. Abnormal postural tone is more likely referencing altered muscle patterns to maintain posture. As you stand or sit, there is a certain amount of muscle activity that occurs in order to maintain an upright posture. Those patterns of muscle action are responding to what the brain is sensing through the vestibular system. From there, the motor system receives the input and makes corrections or maintains based on what the brain/person wants to do. (Interesting side note: a slow roll of about 1 degree every five minutes, I think, is not perceptible by the brain. This is how it is thought that John F Kennedy Jr lost control of his airplane. You gradually roll over and when you lose lift you pull up to try and correct and because you're angled over it pulls you in to a spiral)

So I think the paper is suggesting that something gets in the way from the sensing to the motor pathways. This could/would result in abnormal muscle firing patterns to maintain posture. This doesn't necessarily suggest anything about strength.

Dingo
05-06-2010, 06:17 PM
I knew I had heard the word Dystonia before.

This story was from a few months ago.
YouTube: Beautiful Cheerleader Develops Dystonia After Receiving Vaccine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGT0r-udstQ)

Dingo
05-06-2010, 09:58 PM
Skevimc


This could/would result in abnormal muscle firing patterns to maintain posture.

Very interesting. I wonder if when the body is out of balance certain muscles have to work harder (if only slightly) to keep the body upright. Maybe those muscles would grow stronger over time. If I lean a few degrees to the right or left I can feel my muscles start to work.

Ya know what's interesting is that inspite of the fact that my son has a nervous system disorder that impacts his balance you'd never know it from the way he plays. He was born a natural athelete unlike his father. :eek:

Here he is at 22 months old, unable to talk and yet and he can already hit a baseball.

Video: Scott, 22 months old playing T-Ball (http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2838/movie0947.mp4)

Dingo
05-07-2010, 08:56 AM
Skevimc

You might find this observation interesting.

The 19th Century Debate on Clothing as a Cause of Scoliosis (http://www.uihealthcare.com/depts/medmuseum/wallexhibits/scoliosis/history/debate.html)


Lewis A. Sayre, an orthopedist, studied patients from upper and lower socioeconomic levels. He found that abnormal spinal development was not often seen in girls from lower income families. These girls did not wear corsets; instead, they carried bundles on their heads, which forced them to stand very straight. This balancing act, Sayre concluded, helped these girls develop healthy spines.

I assume this behavior made the back stronger and more symmetrical. It reminded me of TRS (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8976).

Lewis A. Sayre: The First Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery in America (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493005/)


Lewis Albert Sayre (1820–1900) is considered to be among the founding fathers of orthopaedic surgery in the United States. He studied medicine at the College of Physicians and Surgeons (now of Columbia University). Sayre later helped establish the first academic department of orthopaedics at the Bellevue Medical College where he served as their first Professor of Orthopaedics. Lewis Sayre treated a considerable diversity of musculoskeletal conditions and meticulously documented them with written notes, sketches, and photographs. As a public figure, his methods were controversial, attracting praise by some and inviting criticism by other prominent members of the international community. He made great strides for physicians, helping to charter the American Medical Association and to establish the weekly publication of the Journal of the American Medical Association.

flerc
05-07-2010, 12:20 PM
Skevimc

You might find this observation interesting.

The 19th Century Debate on Clothing as a Cause of Scoliosis (http://www.uihealthcare.com/depts/medmuseum/wallexhibits/scoliosis/history/debate.html)
Lewis A. Sayre, an orthopedist, studied patients from upper and lower socioeconomic levels. He found that abnormal spinal development was not often seen in girls from lower income families. These girls did not wear corsets; instead, they carried bundles on their heads, which forced them to stand very straight. This balancing act, Sayre concluded, helped these girls develop healthy spines.


I assume this behavior made the back stronger and more symmetrical. It reminded me or TRS (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8976).

Lewis A. Sayre: The First Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery in America (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493005/)

I thought something similar when I saw my daughter walking straight carrying her school back over her shoulders. She makes an unrotatory exercise stretching her spine. I always wanted to say him to do it with some weight over her shoulders too, but I was afraid to do something by myself, never proved before. It seems logic that if gravity force is the worse for scoliosis, muscles should to be trained to fight against it.. now I don't know what to do.

rohrer01
05-07-2010, 05:20 PM
My mother had four daughters and had us all walking around with stacks of books on our heads so that we would have good posture. I remember the sessions well. Needless to say, it did not prevent me from getting scoliosis, BUT my scoliosis is SO symmetrical that it went unnoticed. You can still look at me and not know I have scoliosis. Still, when I find myself tipping in one direction, I automatically straighten myself up to "appear" straight. You would think that this could be detrimental to the progression of the curves. Just my two cents.

As far as strength asymmetry, I would suppose that if there were nerve impulse asymmetry to the muscles, that may LEAD to strength asymmetry. If one muscle group fires more than another, it would in essence be getting more "excercise" and become stronger (like the electrostimulators that I was subjected to as a teen). It seems that these studies at least are helping us to understand the mechanics behind the disease. If muscle dystonia is truly related to scoliosis, that would explain the excruciating muscle spasms that many of us get. Mine started at age 8. I would stretch them out in the morning and never told anyone. I thought it was normal growth pain.

After reading what you all have posted and, admittedly not doing any research on my own for lack of time, I'm leaning toward the dystonia hypothesis. The reason being is that the muscle spasms are contracted muscles (redundant, I know), but that is what we are trying to achieve in isometric exercises (not the spasm part - but holding a muscle in a contracted state). The end result that we are trying to achieve is a larger, stronger muscle. I'm just thinking about this one. Thanks everyone!

skevimc
05-07-2010, 06:24 PM
Skevimc

You might find this observation interesting.



Yep, I'm familiar with the Sayre article/book. I used it and a couple of others from the same period in the introduction of my dissertation. The debate between brace and exercise has been going on for over 150 years.


My mother had four daughters and had us all walking around with stacks of books on our heads so that we would have good posture. I remember the sessions well. Needless to say, it did not prevent me from getting scoliosis, BUT my scoliosis is SO symmetrical that it went unnoticed. You can still look at me and not know I have scoliosis. Still, when I find myself tipping in one direction, I automatically straighten myself up to "appear" straight. You would think that this could be detrimental to the progression of the curves. Just my two cents.


This is part of the success rate for Schroth exercises and H. Weiss' studies. In a few of the studies some of the patients' curves don't improve but their posture improves. So it improves the cosmetic appearance which is fairly high on the list of complaints. (Note: not necessarily a plug for Schroth exercises. Just making a statement) :)




After reading what you all have posted and, admittedly not doing any research on my own for lack of time, I'm leaning toward the dystonia hypothesis. The reason being is that the muscle spasms are contracted muscles (redundant, I know), but that is what we are trying to achieve in isometric exercises (not the spasm part - but holding a muscle in a contracted state). The end result that we are trying to achieve is a larger, stronger muscle. I'm just thinking about this one. Thanks everyone!


That's an interesting observation/insight into what you dealt with as a kid. I wonder how common that is?

Whether the muscles play a role in the pathogenesis of AIS or not is a great question. In my thought process, scoliosis isn't necessarily the problem, it's the progression that'll get you. I have little doubt that the muscles play a major role in the progression. The muscles are the only thing keeping any of us upright. If just one fails, things start adapting. In some joints/movements, there is one muscle for one movement. The fingers and some facial movements for example. In other joints/movements there is muscular redundancy. The back is full of that. Several muscles cross over several different vertebral levels and can act in any number of patterns to extend, flex, rotate, bend, etc.... You get the idea. Redundancy can be good if one muscle begins to 'malfunction' because the body can continue to operate in a basically normal way, however, that muscle also has a real purpose. It's not just extra tissue our body decided to create. If the malfunctioning muscle wakes back up then the body never realizes anything was wrong. But if that were to happen chronically or with more than one muscle and the body compensated by using other muscle patterns, that redundancy could actually allow/cause the malfunctioning muscles to continue to malfunction, i.e. get weaker. Kind of like when you limp around on a sprained ankle. It's not good because after the acute injury phase you need to slowly begin using those injured muscles or else your biomechanics are thrown off. It could be the same in the back. But since there is no obvious injury and no obvious pain, there's never any thought about the muscles that aren't working properly. But perhaps muscle spasms are a little sign.

Just thinking 'out loud'... You seem like/are a sciency guy and even though you didn't really ask the question that I just answered, I just started typing and, well... that's the result. :D

Pooka1
05-07-2010, 06:32 PM
Just thinking 'out loud'... You seem like/are a sciency guy and even though you didn't really ask the question that I just answered, I just started typing and, well... that's the result. :D

Bingo. Rohrer01 has science training.

I also guessed that correctly from Rohrer01 posts so it really comes through.

Dingo
05-07-2010, 10:11 PM
Rohrer01


If muscle dystonia is truly related to scoliosis, that would explain the excruciating muscle spasms that many of us get. Mine started at age 8. I would stretch them out in the morning and never told anyone. I thought it was normal growth pain.

That's an interesting observation because several mom's on this board have reported the exact same thing. Turtlelover's daughter has muscle spasms and pain in her back and her curve is only around 10 degrees. She said that TRS significantly reduced the pain. However if she stops for a week the pain gradually comes back.

That story or any other similar story didn't make any sense to me until now.

Wow Dystonia.... hmmm....

flerc
05-07-2010, 10:17 PM
The muscles are the only thing keeping any of us upright.

What do you means for keeping upright?
Once I asked to a surgeon the following question: imagine somebody sitting down in a straight position in a bench with her back touching the wall. If her neck would be tied (not so strong) to the wall, and he abruptly dies, her torso could not move to the front, neither to the sides. But it would not collapsed either, it’ll remains straight and not because the muscles of course. How could it be? He said me that without any doubt because the vertebrae bodies (vertebrae + disc), if they were not wedges. Unlike other surgeons I visited, he thought that much more important than muscles are the vertebrae bodies.
ABR people says that internal organs, fascias, smooth muscles.. all of that they call the pneumatic skeleton are much more important than the spine and striated muscles.
Really i don’t know what to think.

flerc
05-07-2010, 11:23 PM
My mother had four daughters and had us all walking around with stacks of books on our heads so that we would have good posture. I remember the sessions well. Needless to say, it did not prevent me from getting scoliosis, BUT my scoliosis is SO symmetrical that it went unnoticed.

you walked upright, but your curve surely had more or less the same degrees when you did it. How much heavy could was that books?
Itís a so difficult exercise and the Pysio said that my daughter donít do it rightly yet, but I see how her curve reduces degrees when she do it, but then increase again. She has a great flexibility so she can do it. Her muscles support her torso, but what could happens if also should to support about a 25% more of that weight, or a 30%?...40%..? If she does that exercise lifting more weight every day and stretching more her spine, what could happen?
Ostheopats says that structure follow the functionÖ or something like that.
If my work requires my body to be more strong and robust, surely that will be in same time. If all the day I do something that requires being taller, I cannot grow more, but if Iíd have scoliosis I could.
Of course itís only an idea and I could not know if it could works..but in fact I could not be sure it could not.
Anyway the Physio and my wife never allow me to prove it.

flerc
05-07-2010, 11:49 PM
A prevalence study of primary dystonia in eight European countries (http://www.springerlink.com/content/vpwfy3ptqfv7ny1w/)



Like most genetic diseases that hit children and young people Primary (clinical) Dystonia is a rare condition. It appears to be caused by a mutated version of the gene called DYT1.

Dystonias Caused by DYT1 Gene Mutation (http://www.wemove.org/dys/dys_ddyt1.html)

I have read that chd7 was identified as the first gene related with scoliosis, after they saw that Charge lead to scoliosis (and alteration of that gene was present in both). May be they have done some study like that with DYT1?

titaniumed
05-08-2010, 03:03 AM
A similar alteration in cortical motor excitability to that
found in patients with IS has been also described in patients
with Parkinsonís disease [43, 44]. The incidence of scoliosis
in Parkinson patients is higher than in the normal
population varying from 33 to 90%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not surprised at all. I've always believed that scoli is a nervous system disorder. This material reminds me of all the info I read years ago when my father was dying from ALS.

Ed

Dingo
05-08-2010, 09:17 AM
Really interesting thread.

... and to tie it all back together on another level.

Parkinson's is a chronic inflammatory condition.
Inflammation and Parkinson's disease (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14561187)

According to Dr. Alain Moreau Scoliosis is also a chronic inflammatory condition. High levels of Osteopontin (a marker for inflammation) are found in children with AIS.
METHOD OF DETERMINING RISK OF SCOLIOSIS (http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2008119170&IA=CA2008000595&DISPLAY=DESC)

Dingo
05-08-2010, 09:20 AM
I just googled Osteopontin and Parkinson's and sure enough the two are connected. Here is one study out of many.

Osteopontin is elevated in Parkinson's disease and its absence leads to reduced neurodegeneration in the MPTP model. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17188882)

skevimc
05-08-2010, 10:25 AM
What do you means for keeping upright?
Once I asked to a surgeon the following question: imagine somebody sitting down in a straight position in a bench with her back touching the wall. If her neck would be tied (not so strong) to the wall, and he abruptly dies, her torso could not move to the front, neither to the sides. But it would not collapsed either, itíll remains straight and not because the muscles of course. How could it be? He said me that without any doubt because the vertebrae bodies (vertebrae + disc), if they were not wedges. Unlike other surgeons I visited, he thought that much more important than muscles are the vertebrae bodies.
ABR people says that internal organs, fascias, smooth muscles.. all of that they call the pneumatic skeleton are much more important than the spine and striated muscles.
Really i donít know what to think.


Interesting point. Indeed, all of the body works together. No doubt that the rib cage, internal organs, fascia and a few other things help in maintaining posture, although without muscles, I wouldn't say the posture is 'upright'. Ribs and organs, etc... act in a passive way. Meaning, they aren't actively maintaining posture except for being in the way, kind of like trying to touch your thumb to your arm. That's the kind of resistance ligaments, bones and cartilage offer. They won't do much if the force increases.

I disagree with your doctor that the spine would be held straight. It wouldn't fall apart but it would most definitely bend and twist just like when you don't sit up straight in a chair. You slouch over and your spine bends. Keeping it tied to the wall would prevent some of that, but all that shows is how little effort it takes to maintain posture in a calm environment. Without muscles to keep the spine straight, the body would have to rely on being perfectly balanced, and even then it would still slouch quite a bit. If you move, then everything collapses. This is displayed in polio scoliosis and muscular dystrophies (among other musculoskeletal diseases). Those conditions cause horribly twisted and curved spines. If the vertebral bodies and discs were 'much more' important than muscles, this wouldn't happen.

I know English is not your primary language so if something is not clear I can try to explain it differently. Are you using google translate? http://translate.google.com/#

Dingo
05-08-2010, 12:03 PM
In his patent (http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2008119170&IA=CA2008000595&DISPLAY=DESC) Dr. Alain Moreau recommends a Selenium rich diet for children with AIS.


[0024] In accordance with another aspect of the present invention, there is provided a method of preventing or reducing scoliosis comprising administering to a subject having scoliosis a therapeutically effective amount of an osteopontin inhibitor (OPN) or a selenium rich diet, whereby scoliosis is thereby prevented or treated.


[00166] Selenium concentration was reported to be significantly decreased in plasma of AIS patients (42). Selenium and more specifically Se-methylselenocystein, an organoselenium naturally occurring in diet, are used to prevent metastasis in breast cancer as chemopreventive therapy by targeting OPN transcription (43-45).

Interestingly enough scientists are doing research on Selenium and Parkinson's.
Dose-dependent protective effect of selenium in rat model of Parkinson's disease: neurobehavioral and neurochemical evidences. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12558963)

Normal cellular metabolism produces oxidants that are neutralized within cells by antioxidant enzymes and other antioxidants. An imbalance between oxidant and antioxidant has been postulated to lead the degeneration of dopaminergic neurons in Parkinson's disease. In this study, we examined whether selenium, an antioxidant, can prevent or slowdown neuronal injury in a 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) model of Parkinsonism. Rats were pre-treated with sodium selenite (0.1, 0.2 and 0.3 mg/kg body weight) for 7 days. On day 8, 2 micro L 6-OHDA (12.5 micro g in 0.2% ascorbic acid in normal saline) was infused in the right striatum. Two weeks after 6-OHDA infusion, rats were tested for neurobehavioral activity, and were killed after 3 weeks of 6-OHDA infusion for the estimation of glutathione peroxidase, glutathione-S-transferase, glutathione reductase, glutathione content, lipid peroxidation, and dopamine and its metabolites. Selenium was found to be successful in upregulating the antioxidant status and lowering the dopamine loss, and functional recovery returned close to the baseline dose-dependently. This study revealed that selenium, which is an essential part of our diet, may be helpful in slowing down the progression of neurodegeneration in parkinsonism.

Dingo
05-08-2010, 12:10 PM
A similar alteration in cortical motor excitability to that found in patients with IS has been also described in patients with Parkinson’s disease [43, 44]. The incidence of scoliosis in Parkinson patients is higher than in the normal population varying from 33 to 90%

I'm not sure if this is necessarily true but looked at backwards could it be said that Parkinson's disease is higher among Scoliosis patients?

Wasn't there a guy on here about a month ago who said he was just diagnosed with Parkinson's? I think he was a poster from scoliosis-support.

titaniumed
05-08-2010, 12:34 PM
"There is overwhelming evidence that the emergence of coordinated movements is intimately tied to both the growth of musculoskeletal system and to the development of brain. The neural development and learning cannot be considered outside of their biomechanical context. A key theoretical issue is how the changes in brain circuitry controlling muscles and joints become matched to simultaneously occurring developmental changes at the periphery."

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/4/1/24

Overwhelming evidence is good enough for me.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its nice to know that SfN has grown through the years...and advancement will accelerate tremendously.

Neuroscience research is pushing the envelope on one of science's last and most daunting frontiers ó the brain. This work holds great promise for understanding and treating stroke, schizophrenia, Alzheimer's disease and other illnesses.

http://www.sfn.org/index.aspx?pagename=whatIsNeuroscience

This is what I was leading into with my Lou Gehrigs thread, and scoliosis ties in.

We need to have open minds, and go after all of it. We need an ARMY of scientists. I dont think we need to focus on Mars right now. LOL

Ed

titaniumed
05-08-2010, 12:51 PM
Dingo

It looks as if they are saying that 1/3rd to almost all Parkinson's patients have scoli.

Seems like a broad number? You would think that they would know the exact number??????

I donít remember anyone posting about having Parkinson's. But then again, its not easy to keep up with all these posts... Some posts take quite a bit of thought.

Ed

rohrer01
05-08-2010, 02:41 PM
you walked upright, but your curve surely had more or less the same degrees when you did it. How much heavy could was that books?
Itís a so difficult exercise and the Pysio said that my daughter donít do it rightly yet, but I see how her curve reduces degrees when she do it, but then increase again. She has a great flexibility so she can do it. Her muscles support her torso, but what could happens if also should to support about a 25% more of that weight, or a 30%?...40%..? If she does that exercise lifting more weight every day and stretching more her spine, what could happen?
Ostheopats says that structure follow the functionÖ or something like that.
If my work requires my body to be more strong and robust, surely that will be in same time. If all the day I do something that requires being taller, I cannot grow more, but if Iíd have scoliosis I could.
Of course itís only an idea and I could not know if it could works..but in fact I could not be sure it could not.
Anyway the Physio and my wife never allow me to prove it.

I was not diagnosed with AIS at the time of the exercises, so I don't know what effect, if any, it had on my curve. I also don't think the books were very heavy, as it was an exercise in balance, not strength.

A thought posted by Scevimc about Schroth. I know you weren't promoting this, as you stated. But even though postural appearance is a complaint among many with scoliosis, my opinion is that postural training, such as I did as a child can be dangerous in scoliosis patients. The reason being is that a curve has developed, now you are telling the body to bend the other way creating a compensatory curve. Then if you start tilting the other way again, you "straighten" up. This may look cosmetically better, but in reality a person may be turning themselves into a living accordian. I do it out of habit and my curves have NOT gotten better. They have gotten worse. I still have some cosmetic issues. Other's don't see them and that's only because I am "balanced" and it is easier to hide with clothing. But I don't think the overall effect is very good. So for those of you out there reading this, please be careful. Looking balanced isn't everything.

Here's another thing that I've been thinking about. When I learned that I had AIS, I was told that it was a musculoskeletal disorder. As I did more research, I tended to believe that it was more of a connective tissue disorder for the simple fact that both my daughter and I have floppy joints and there is a link between Marfan's and scoliosis. Now flerc brings up dystonia. When I first looked it up, my inclination was to say NO WAY. But now I am convinced that this has something to do with it. So here we are looking at a nervous system disorder, which isn't out of the question as I also have spina bifida occulta and so does my son. Who knows what topic is going to come up next that will also make perfect sense, and I'll be going yeah, yeah. So now, put them all together and the polygenic feature of the hereditary pattern of this disease is making more and more sense. It would explain everything from different hereditary patterns to different curve patterns, to severity and progression. This truly is a complex disorder. My ramblings for the moment... This is a very nice place to muse over these things. Perhaps something someone says here will have been of some value to a researcher who happened to take the time to read through these threads.

Pooka1
05-08-2010, 02:56 PM
Perhaps something someone says here will have been of some value to a researcher who happened to take the time to read through these threads.

Perhaps. Our resident muscle doctor certainly seems to be fascinated by some off these posts.

But I think we have to remember that researchers think about this stuff all the time. What is novel and clever to us is very likely reinventing the wheel or already disproven to them. Of course we can't say that 100% of the time but we can be confident it is happening virtually all the time.

There is a reason why researchers are working on what they are working on and a reason why they aren't working on other things at this time. And that reason isn't likely to be that they simply haven't thought about it. This is what it means to have an expertise in something.

ETA: It seems that for every thing that "our" muscle physiologist find fascinating, he has posted several more posts "edifying" folks on various topics. By that's just my impression and he can speak for himself.

rohrer01
05-08-2010, 03:19 PM
Perhaps. Our resident muscle doctor certainly seems to be fascinated by some off these posts.

But I think we have to remember that researchers think about this stuff all the time. What is novel and clever to us is very likely reinventing the wheel or already disproven to them. Of course we can't say that 100% of the time but we can be confident it is happening virtually all the time.

There is a reason why researchers are working on what they are working on and a reason why they aren't working on other things at this time. And that reason isn't likely to be that they simply haven't thought about it. This is what it means to have an expertise in something.

I realize this is true most of the time. Sometimes we get stuck in a rut, whether we are researchers or housewives. Then someone may say or do something that gets us thinking "outside the box". I'm by no means a researcher, although I am completely fascinated by this stuff. From what I do know about research is that sometimes people can get so caught up in their own topic that it becomes consuming and the obvious may be sitting right there. Even the most educated person can be turned on to an idea. We can't all think of everything, no matter how much knowledge we may possess. I agree for us laymen, that putting all of these pieces together for us, probably is reinventing the wheel. But it all seems to be coming together, at least in my small mind. :) I have always been fascinated by how much responsibility and how much multitasking there is in research, thinking ahead 20 steps before making a decision, while you have a kazillion other things going on, including ones personal life. The minds of some of these people are just incredible. We've kind of been here before with the Odone's. I totally agree that the laymen out there aren't likely to contribute much, including me (I haven't thought of anything new, but flerc really impressed me this time). But, there are just some topics that have been brought up recently that are really good ones, unlike the go-nowhere arguments that have been so common lately. Besides, we don't know the education status of everyone on here... although it usually isn't that hard to figure out. ;)

rohrer01
05-08-2010, 07:57 PM
"We need to have open minds, and go after all of it. We need an ARMY of scientists. I dont think we need to focus on Mars right now. LOL

Ed

Exactly!!!;)

flerc
05-08-2010, 09:45 PM
Research is only a (significant) step of Problem Solving. Some researches as those about the historical (and probably one of the currents) cause of the scoliosis, or discs regeneration could be useful or not in a so complex multi causal (without any doubt) problem as scoliosis after growth (at least in great curves) is.
I always think that if Iíd have enough money Iíll lead a Project of scientists, some of the best osteopaths, chiros, physios, western and eastern doctors.. and in a short time the outcome of that Project would be a great solution to the scoliosis of my daughter and for so many people too. In fact, Iíll only finance it. Anyone participating in this thread could lead it much better than me.
But we could think we are participating in some kind of virtual Project, why not? What kind of scope could it has? Who knows?

rohrer01
05-08-2010, 11:37 PM
Research is only a (significant) step of Problem Solving. Some researches as those about the historical (and probably one of the currents) cause of the scoliosis, or discs regeneration could be useful or not in a so complex multi causal (without any doubt) problem as scoliosis after growth (at least in great curves) is.
I always think that if Iíd have enough money Iíll lead a Project of scientists, some of the best osteopaths, chiros, physios, western and eastern doctors.. and in a short time the outcome of that Project would be a great solution to the scoliosis of my daughter and for so many people too. In fact, Iíll only finance it. Anyone participating in this thread could lead it much better than me.
But we could think we are participating in some kind of virtual Project, why not? What kind of scope could it has? Who knows?

That would cost a LOT of money! But the thought is very nice!

flerc
05-09-2010, 08:23 AM
I want to contact some millionaire affected by scoliosis. Could be someone in the world?

Pooka1
05-09-2010, 09:31 AM
I always think that if Iíd have enough money Iíll lead a Project of scientists, some of the best osteopaths, chiros, physios, western and eastern doctors..

Well if you are going to include osteopath, chiros, physios, and eastern doctors, you will have to include alchemists, flat-earthers, and tarot card readers. :)

In general, even doctors/surgeons do not get any significant training to do RESEARCH unless they have a MD/PhD combined degree. If they did then there would be no need to offer an MD/PhD. Q.E.D.

The people who will solve scoliosis are medical researchers in the fields of molecular biology, genetics, endocrinology, metabolic physiology, neurology, neurochemistry, etc.

The surgeons cannot solve scoliosis... they are simply the only people qualified to treat it until it is solved.

flerc
05-09-2010, 01:43 PM
I know English is not your primary language so if something is not clear I can try to explain it differently. Are you using google translate? http://translate.google.com/#


Thanks, in fact google translator confused me more, I use dictionaries on line. English is still difficult for me to write or read. Many times I realized about mistakes, (as in the title of that thread), and I always doubt if it could be comprehended what I wanted to say. Please let me know when something is not clear.
I think I understand what you say, but sorely I could not be sure at all. If I say something without any sense could be for that reason (or for other more serious HA).



Without muscles to keep the spine straight, the body would have to rely on being perfectly balanced, and even then it would still slouch quite a bit. If you move, then everything collapses.

I think if neck could not move neither to the front nor to sides, there is no way for a normal body sit down in a bench over the wall to collapse, is not possible that a lateral curve appears. I made some proofs with myself. I practiced some kind of Yoga and believe me I can really relax my body and Iím sure Iím not activating any muscle. GPR people says about some gravity or statics muscles, we not active in a voluntary way. I think that if those muscles not allowed the body to collapse, they should to be so involuntary and imperceptibles as smooth muscles. They say too that the muscles length is involved in that and the muscles in concave side are shortened. But if itís true, how could be my daughter straight her column?


This is displayed in polio scoliosis and muscular dystrophies (among other musculoskeletal diseases). Those conditions cause horribly twisted and curved spines. If the vertebral bodies and discs were 'much more' important than muscles, this wouldn't happen.

ABR people says that is not caused for striated muscles in fact, but I want to ask and know your opinion for them in other thread soon, for not loose the focus. Anyway something caused it during growth. But now, muscles donít seems for me to allow the spine to be upright (in the sense we were talking) or to prevent it to be more curve in a frontal plane.
I must to understand that concepts, because the only one treatment my daughter is following is GPR and it is mainly focused in striated (mainly statics) muscles (in fact fascias, connective tissues and other things too) so I could know if she is needing other kind of therapy too, focused in other thing.
I should to know if striated muscles diseases as dystonia are a current cause or only an historical one, and how important could it be now.
Surely nobody could be absolutely sure of those things, but Iíll appreciate your opinion very much. I'll go over GPR more in depht soon. Thanks for all!

flerc
05-09-2010, 03:08 PM
Well if you are going to include osteopath, chiros, physios, and eastern doctors, you will have to include alchemists, flat-earthers, and tarot card readers. :)

Ida Rolfer did not think as you. She had a Doctored in Biochimestry and she studied osteopathy, chiropractic, yoga, Tai chi, Homeopathy and some other disciplines and finally, with all that great knowledge she created Rolfing. Do you think that discipline is comparable with Tarot or alchemy?


The people who will solve scoliosis are medical researchers in the fields of molecular biology, genetics, endocrinology, metabolic physiology, neurology, neurochemistry, etc.

I agree that knowledge is extremely necessary but I'm not sure if it'll be enough. Anyway I continue trying to contact with that medical researches, without much success in fact. Sorely they are not trying to solve the problem of people with scoliosis.


The surgeons cannot solve scoliosis... they are simply the only people qualified to treat it until it is solved.

Maybe you are wright and surgery would be the only resource today, but I'm not sure of that, so I'll continue trying with something conservative while I can.

Pooka1
05-09-2010, 03:22 PM
Ida Rolfer did not think as you. She had a Doctored in Biochemistry and she studied osteopathy, chiropractic, yoga, Tai chi, Homeopathy and some other disciplines and finally, with all that great knowledge she created Rolfing. Do you think that discipline is comparable with Tarot or alchemy?

I can beat that!

Curt Wise has PhD in geology (paleontology) from Harvard University and his adviser was none other than Stephen Jay Gould. Curt Wise does NOT accept the fact of evolution.

I'm sorry but my example beats ALL other examples as it must. This is arguably the gold standard for people getting legitimate doctorates degrees from accredited universities and then ignoring what they learned.

The point is that anyone who gets a degree can then ignore the scientific method after they get it. I doubt she used any biochemistry knowledge or any science at all to create rolfing but I don't know that.

What claims does rolfing make and how many have they proven? I have no idea.

rohrer01
05-09-2010, 04:52 PM
I'm not sure if this is necessarily true but looked at backwards could it be said that Parkinson's disease is higher among Scoliosis patients?

Wasn't there a guy on here about a month ago who said he was just diagnosed with Parkinson's? I think he was a poster from scoliosis-support.

Not necessarily. In logic (math logic which applies to other logic as well) just because something goes one way does not mean it goes the other. There would have to be a study of the relationship of scoliosis ---> parkinson's. If there IS a relationship of parkinson's ---> scoliosis the above isn't necessarily true and would have to be proven independently.

rohrer01
05-09-2010, 05:11 PM
Not necessarily. In logic (math logic which applies to other logic as well) just because something goes one way does not mean it goes the other. There would have to be a study of the relationship of scoliosis ---> parkinson's. If there IS a relationship of parkinson's ---> scoliosis the above isn't necessarily true and would have to be proven independently.

This would be like stating: 30-90% of people who eat green apples vomit. Therefore, of all the people that vomit, 30-90% must have eaten green apples.

Do you see how you can not turn things around? It just doesn't work and it isn't true unless you can prove it's true.

It is the same way with diseases that may be linked one way, but certainly not the other. I wouldn't suggest that people with scoliosis are more susceptible to Parkinson's unless there is a better reason than people with Parkinson's tend to get scoliosis.

LindaRacine
05-09-2010, 05:31 PM
Dingo thinks there MAY have been one person who mentioned that he had Parkinsons, and that's apparently enough to conclude that there's a link between the two. :rolleyes:

flerc
05-09-2010, 07:21 PM
I can beat that!

Curt Wise has PhD in geology (paleontology) from Harvard University and his adviser was none other than Stephen Jay Gould. Curt Wise is a young earth creationist.

I'm sorry but my example beats ALL other examples as it must. This is arguably the gold standard for people getting legitimate doctorates degrees from accredited universities and then ignoring what they learned.

The point is that anyone who gets a degree can then ignore the scientific method after they get it. I doubt she used any biochemistry knowledge or any science at all to create rolfing but I don't know that.

What claims does rolfing make and how many have they proven? I have no idea.

I think that without that great conceptual background reached in the University, she could never arrived to something as Rolfing. Of course you could think she turned mystic, believing in ancient and exoteric cultures, creating something without any value.
I know a doctor with a great scoliosis, that has a big and illustrated book of Rolfing. That is enough for me to think is different as Tarot or sťance..

rohrer01
05-09-2010, 08:05 PM
In defense of flerc's suggestion of rolfing, they do fascia release in PT. Although, I can't say that I know much about rolfing, I just did a quick search to see what it was about, and that seems to be what she was trying to accomplish. Although comparing ice cubes to stiff fascia is kind of a hard comparison in my mind. Water stiffens because of temperature. I don't know what her theory was as to why she thinks the fascia hardens. My guess would be adhesions (which I know I have mentioned before on a different thread)?

Pooka1
05-09-2010, 08:13 PM
Not necessarily. In logic (math logic which applies to other logic as well) just because something goes one way does not mean it goes the other. There would have to be a study of the relationship of scoliosis ---> parkinson's. If there IS a relationship of parkinson's ---> scoliosis the above isn't necessarily true and would have to be proven independently.

Exactly.

Dingo is engaging in a type of "if-then" fallacy.

It is called converting a conditional.

If A then B. Therefore if B then A.

There is a long list of logical fallacies. The mind is not reliable.

rohrer01
05-09-2010, 08:49 PM
Exactly.

Dingo is engaging in a type of "if-then" fallacy.

It is called converting a conditional.

If A then B. Therefore if B then A.

There is a long list of logical fallacies. The mind is not reliable.

Believe me, I know. I had to endure a semester of math logic to get my math minor. The professor, if that's what you can call her, was terrible. But the subject matter was great. When you can learn to "prove" things logically, you understand the world around you much better. It works in language as well as mathematics. Something we all need to watch out for, false reasoning can get us really confused.:confused::confused:;)

skevimc
05-10-2010, 12:50 PM
A thought posted by Scevimc about Schroth. I know you weren't promoting this, as you stated. But even though postural appearance is a complaint among many with scoliosis, my opinion is that postural training, such as I did as a child can be dangerous in scoliosis patients. ... Other's don't see them and that's only because I am "balanced" and it is easier to hide with clothing. But I don't think the overall effect is very good. So for those of you out there reading this, please be careful. Looking balanced isn't everything.



Agree completely. Balance doesn't do a lot of good if your curve is progressing. There was one article I remember reading from H. Weiss and there was an adult patient whose curve did not improve after in patient Schroth therapy (it might have even progressed a bit). At any rate, they sort of claimed a successful treatment because her trunk symmetry improved and they showed two pictures (before and after) and her posture did look better. But she has a pretty good sized curve. It's a good thought that external trunk symmetry might hide what's really happening inside.




But I think we have to remember that researchers think about this stuff all the time. What is novel and clever to us is very likely reinventing the wheel or already disproven to them. Of course we can't say that 100% of the time but we can be confident it is happening virtually all the time.

There is a reason why researchers are working on what they are working on and a reason why they aren't working on other things at this time. And that reason isn't likely to be that they simply haven't thought about it. This is what it means to have an expertise in something.

ETA: It seems that for every thing that "our" muscle physiologist find fascinating, he has posted several more posts "edifying" folks on various topics. By that's just my impression and he can speak for himself.

This is something that amazes with some researchers and what can be so neat about being deep in a particular field. At conferences some other scientists will ask some off the wall question and the really good ones have an answer for it or can at least attempt a good guess. It just shows that idea of being so immersed in something that you have thought about it from so many angles.

That being said, I think more researchers could/would benefit from coming on to these boards and either engaging in discussion or at least snooping around. While researchers can be very passionate about their work and think about it A LOT, we can, and do, leave it behind. Weekends, vacations, changing projects etc... Patients and families don't have that luxury. Consequently many of you are driven by something much more visceral. Having been a patient myself (not scoliosis) I understand the vigor and almost endless quest for understanding and answers. I can only imagine the zeal I would have if it were for my daughter. I have gained a lot by engaging on here. Some things I don't follow or believe. Other things are concepts I've either never really followed (like Marfan's) or thought much about (like genetics).

I think a good scientist will always be skeptical but will also remain open to a new idea. Perhaps the classification would be "optimistically skeptical'. But not so optimistic that we follow every rabbit into it's hole and not so skeptical we don't follow any rabbits.

flerc
05-10-2010, 03:04 PM
Agree completely. Balance doesn't do a lot of good if your curve is progressing.
Iím so afraid about compensatory curves!. It seems really like a good conclusion of roher01. I never realized before how much dangerous could be good cosmetic, although an osteopath friend told me once something similar as she said.
I think if the body is moved to another position but accompanying the spine, such as it occurs when it is stretched, even with heavy weight it should not be dangerous. But Iím not sure. Do you think that it could also be dangerous?

Pooka1
05-10-2010, 03:08 PM
I think a good scientist will always be skeptical but will also remain open to a new idea. Perhaps the classification would be "optimistically skeptical'. But not so optimistic that we follow every rabbit into it's hole and not so skeptical we don't follow any rabbits.

Scathing, scorched earth, take no prisoners skepticism seems to work for me.

Anything that makes it through that is clever enough to catch my attention. :)

skevimc
05-10-2010, 03:27 PM
Iím so afraid about compensatory curves!. It seems really like a good conclusion of roher01. I never realized before how much dangerous could be good cosmetic, although an osteopath friend told me once something similar as she said.
I think if the body is moved to another position but accompanying the spine, such as it occurs when it is stretched, even with heavy weight it should not be dangerous. But Iím not sure. Do you think that it could also be dangerous?

I'm not sure I'm understanding your question here.

I can say that the goal for Schroth and another postural therapy, side shift, is to address each component of the curve. Breaking the curve into four or five components - neck/shoulders; thoracic; thoraco-lumbar; lumbar; pelvis. Depending on the major curve, each component will derotate and shift in order to bring the spine into alignment. I can see that if you straighten one part of the spine but do not address the compensatory movements, that could be bad. I've seen this happen with some people in a brace. They control the main curve and lower compensatory curve but what happens is the compensatory curve in the high thoracic region begins to progress. This doesn't happen all the time, but it's certainly something the doctors and brace people will watch.

A compensatory curve can also be a good thing. In some situations it balances the spine and can help to stabilize the curve.

Overall, though, it's hard to say.

flerc
05-11-2010, 11:30 AM
I was referring to that post of Roher01


I'm not sure I'm understanding your question here.

But even though postural appearance is a complaint among many with scoliosis, my opinion is that postural training, such as I did as a child can be dangerous in scoliosis patients. The reason being is that a curve has developed, now you are telling the body to bend the other way creating a compensatory curve.


I think compensatory curves as you said could be good, but if its have been done in a natural way by the body but not as a response to something strange. I know about people than after some kind of therapies (not Schroth) developed compensatory curves that not exist before, just only adding more curves to her spine. Surely a great knowledge is required to know what kind of movements could be performed. I think that despite medicine is not an exact science, some medical issues are absolutely clear and structured in same way. There is not discussion about what could be good or bad. Could be say the some about the spinal movements? If I show a complex spinal movement to a doctor, could he really know if it could be good or not?

skevimc
05-11-2010, 11:33 AM
Scathing, scorched earth, take no prisoners skepticism seems to work for me.

Anything that makes it through that is clever enough to catch my attention. :)

Yeah. I got that sense about you. :)

Pooka1
05-11-2010, 11:45 AM
Yeah. I got that sense about you. :)

You're doing your post doc now. I am about 20 years out of mine and working as a research scientist that entire time.

May I email you in about 20 years please? ;)

flerc
05-11-2010, 11:53 AM
I'll go over GPR more in depht soon. Thanks for all!
skevimc, sorely I not found this page in English. I hope it would be clear with Google translator; of course say me please if I can help to you.

http://www.rpg.org.ar/es/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=95:concepto-de-debilidad-muscular-relativa-en-reeducacion-postural-global-rpg&catid=4:notas-de-interes&Itemid=52

I think that if dystonia is a current cause of the curve and it potential progression after growth, GPR could be a good treatment because they suppose that an excessive tone is present in skeletally deformities (as in some way could be say that happens with dystonia), and they try to fight against it. Iím reasoning in a right way?
Do you know why could I know if in fact the muscular weakness of my daughter is a relative weakness as they say? Some other people in my country said me that she need urgently to strengthen her muscles (in the classic way), and Gpr Physio says to me that it would be incompatibly with Gpr treatment, so Iíd should to choice one of them.
As with much others scoliosis issues, I donít know what to believe.

skevimc
05-11-2010, 12:26 PM
You're doing your post doc now. I am about 20 years out of mine and working as a research scientist that entire time.

May I email you in about 20 years please? ;)

Yes, I'm a newbie and still idealistic. I'm sure I'll get roughed up in a decade or two. :)

What is your field?


skevimc, sorely I not found this page in English. I hope it would be clear with Google translator; of course say me please if I can help to you.


I think that if dystonia is a current cause of the curve and it potential progression after growth, GPR could be a good treatment because they suppose that an excessive tone is present in skeletally deformities (as in some way could be say that happens with dystonia), and they try to fight against it. Iím reasoning in a right way?
Do you know why could I know if in fact the muscular weakness of my daughter is a relative weakness as they say? Some other people in my country said me that she need urgently to strengthen her muscles (in the classic way), and Gpr Physio says to me that it would be incompatibly with Gpr treatment, so Iíd should to choice one of them.
As with much others scoliosis issues, I donít know what to believe.

I'll look at it. I have it translated and will see if I can understand it. I'm sure I'll be able to get the basic idea.

In my opinion, assuming there is no connective tissue disorder, I generally don't think there is ever anything wrong with strengthening muscles. So I'll see if I can figure out why the RPG therapists say it is contraindicated.

skevimc
05-11-2010, 01:32 PM
I think that if dystonia is a current cause of the curve and it potential progression after growth, GPR could be a good treatment because they suppose that an excessive tone is present in skeletally deformities (as in some way could be say that happens with dystonia), and they try to fight against it. Iím reasoning in a right way?


Yes, you have the correct reasoning. As I see it, the hard part is confirming that one side has a higher tone versus the other side having a lower tone.



Do you know why could I know if in fact the muscular weakness of my daughter is a relative weakness as they say? Some other people in my country said me that she need urgently to strengthen her muscles (in the classic way), and Gpr Physio says to me that it would be incompatibly with Gpr treatment, so Iíd should to choice one of them.
As with much others scoliosis issues, I donít know what to believe.

Our studies showed that there is an apparent weakness when rotating towards the concavity. This was confirmed because the strength towards the convexity were similar to girls without scoliosis and the concavity was less. So it's most likely a weakness as opposed to an increased strength.

Using the article... Their description using images 5 and 6 is pretty good. Their subsequent treatment is to stretch the weak side and that will bring things back into balance. Our idea was to strengthen both sides to an equal degree. So after training, both sides had equal strength as well as being much stronger. They are suggesting that strength training is not good in this case because strengthening might increase the imbalance and increase the amount of force on the vertebrae which could speed up progression. That is a logical conclusion. However, I disagree with it because of the goal of strength training is to create strength symmetry.

I think the idea of releasing/stretching is very good. Especially the quadratus lumborum.

I think RPG plus strengthening would compliment each other very well. But I understand why the RPG therapists would disagree.

Pooka1
05-11-2010, 02:01 PM
Yes, I'm a newbie and still idealistic. I'm sure I'll get roughed up in a decade or two. :)

What is your field?


I'm in the earth sciences though have taken some biology, biochemistry, etc. classes.

So basically I am unarmed, other then with the scientific method, to be addressing any scoliosis research. :D

flerc
05-13-2010, 10:14 PM
Yes, you have the correct reasoning. As I see it, the hard part is confirming that one side has a higher tone versus the other side having a lower tone.



Our studies showed that there is an apparent weakness when rotating towards the concavity. This was confirmed because the strength towards the convexity were similar to girls without scoliosis and the concavity was less. So it's most likely a weakness as opposed to an increased strength.

Using the article... Their description using images 5 and 6 is pretty good. Their subsequent treatment is to stretch the weak side and that will bring things back into balance. Our idea was to strengthen both sides to an equal degree. So after training, both sides had equal strength as well as being much stronger. They are suggesting that strength training is not good in this case because strengthening might increase the imbalance and increase the amount of force on the vertebrae which could speed up progression. That is a logical conclusion. However, I disagree with it because of the goal of strength training is to create strength symmetry.

I think the idea of releasing/stretching is very good. Especially the quadratus lumborum.

I think RPG plus strengthening would compliment each other very well. But I understand why the RPG therapists would disagree.

Hi skevimc, I could not answer you earlier. You don't know how much you are helping me and how grateful I am with you. Is great for me to know your opinion about Rpg
My daughter made only one session of the other therapy to strengthen muscles and then she had some back pain and cramps, which had been dissolved for more than a year. We suspended immediately this therapy, although the therapist told us that these cramps were due to inactivity and weakness of those muscles, which could lead to progression in a short time. Of course the concern is great, although we really trust in the RPG Physio, who told us he spent several sessions in order to normalize the effect of such strengthening sessions. According to what I understand, she also says that is not much useful to focus on the voluntary muscles as she think, that therapy was doing. http://www.rpg.org.ar/divorcio.htm
I wish I could do a study to determine if in addition to the difference in tone, she actually has a weakness so alarming as it says the therapist, who is also well known in my country and it is also medical.
I also believe that strength training would be a good one. I think that heavy weight over the shoulders, as I said in other post, should to works, but I'm terrified of doing something that the Rpg Physio not agrees.
She is focused in avoid progression and pain, of course the most important of all, but I think it is not possible to be sure if it could be for ever, so I want to reduce some significant degrees and I have some ideas to do that. But she don't listen to me because I have not medical knowledge and she think that I only repeat what I read in Internet, without any understanding. Sure my knowledge is insignificant, so is so important to know people so wise and with a genuine intention to help like you.

Thanks again!

flerc
05-13-2010, 10:31 PM
I was referring to that post of Roher01

I think that despite medicine is not an exact science, some medical issues are absolutely clear and structured in same way. There is not discussion about what could be good or bad. Could be say the some about the spinal movements? If I show a complex spinal movement to a doctor, could he really know if it could be good or not?

skevimc, the concept of MťziŤres http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mťtodo_MťziŤres about muscular chains should to be an important issue, no? I donīt know if it is known by all doctors. It's one of the main issues of all MťziŤres' Schools as Rpg or Antigynastic. I'm sure you'll like the MťziŤres' story.

Regards