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flerc
04-13-2010, 10:52 AM
Well, I hope that post would not be nominated as the post of the month, like it had occurs with that about Breusse massage Ha!
I bought this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Touch-Power-Heal-Second/dp/155643393X#reader_155643393X
If you go to page 9 and if I have not understand it wrong, you'll read how the author related the reversing of an adult and great scoliosis in few minutes.
It's something quit difficult to believe of course. But I have read all the explanation about how could it be that something so incredible could occurs and really I could not say that it's against the logic. I think that all could be view as a Problem Solving matter. Any reasoning could be logic or illogic, depending on the assumptions taken in account and the inference rules we are applying. These assumptions could be basic assumptions (like axioms in Mathematics) or based over other assumptions. Basic assumptions could not be demonstrated. I think that when is obvious the validity of some assumption or exist an agreement about it, we refer to it as a fact.
Iím trying to know the basic facts related to the scoliosis problem. Itís seems to be something impossible, I really donít understand why, but it seems to be a fact!.
Well, the assumptions described in this book, could not be obviously seeing as facts of course, but I think that nobody in the world could have a so great knowledge to assure that could not be valid. I could not say if its are related to the scientific (quantum Physics), oriental or mystic world or a mixed of its, I think that correspond in some way to Osteopathís principles.. or Homeopathís? I donít remember but some of those disciplines talk about a great power and knowledge of the body that could be awake.

Well, Iím extending so much, but I know about others techniques so incredible and apparently against the logic as Quantum Touch, and I think that itís a logic decision to discard something that is clearly illogic or clearly against some facts, or based over ridiculous assumptions, but if we cannot be sure of that..
If Iíd have scoliosis Iíll try to contact the 4 more advanced QT healers that I could join and pay to them for an hour treatment. Iíll measure my height before and after that, to know if it was useful or not. If I growth at least a centimeter, I could say itís not an obvious fraud. If not, well.. surely Iíll feel swindled, but I could say to so many people that the best in my region fails to do what they related in this book and many people could get they own conclusions.

LindaRacine
04-13-2010, 12:51 PM
You REALLY need to stop believing everything you read! :)

flerc
04-13-2010, 01:29 PM
You REALLY need to stop believing everything you read! :)

Hi Lindaracine! Why you think that? In fact it could be impossible, at least I could have a so open mind that I could believe in contradictories affirmations simultaneously. I have read many times about we should only believe what doctors said in health matters, and obviously it is contradictory with Quantum Touch.

Regards

Pooka1
04-13-2010, 03:07 PM
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1884

http://www.chirobase.org/17QA/shortleg.html

Pooka1
04-13-2010, 03:12 PM
You might want to check if all these fringe treatment providers you are reading have fake degrees also...

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Diploma_mill

It's a good bet they might not have a real academic degree.

Pooka1
04-13-2010, 03:15 PM
Don't be fooled by the occasional (rare!) case of hysterical scoliosis. People CAN be talked out of that if you can believe it because the curve is not structural.

Here is one of these rare cases.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9797

Note how the chiros NEVER explain that this case is very rare and does NOT apply to 99.9999999% of patients.

Also, Linda knows of another case of hysterical scoliosis that straightened just upon being put under anesthesia.

flerc
04-14-2010, 10:54 AM
Sharon, como te va?
I don't knew about that kind of accreditation. If the only requirement to get it would be to show at least one success (or some percentage), it would be great, I ever thought there should to exist something like that and that we could see that percentages.
If something like that could exist someday, it'll take off the need to do so hard researches by ourself.
May be true what you said about it could be a functional scoliosis. I thought that only structural scoliosis could exists in adulthood.
I called some Qt healers (QT exist in my country) and all of them said me that they had some successes and some failures, such as a method that could be considered not a fraud.

Un abrazo grande.

mamamax
04-14-2010, 08:56 PM
flerc - I think I understand what you are pondering. If such a thing could in some circumstances bring relief - what is the how and why of it. Seems quite a mystery. Is it Physical or Psychological? Could it be be tied into the placebo effect in ways we do not yet understand? I don't know.

Human touch is a powerful thing - lack of it, can cause failure to thrive in newborns.

Was reading an interesting article this evening and thought of your posting. Sharing with you: http://www.skepdic.com/placebo.html



Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope ("The Placebo Prescription" by Margaret Talbot, New York Times Magazine, January 9, 2000).*

jrnyc
04-14-2010, 10:24 PM
Hi flerc
please... please dont throw money away on charlatans or quacks...lots of people like to claim lots of cures that arent real..it used to be called "selling snake oil"..there will always be those willing to take advantage of trusting people...or of desperate people...

and remember..."if it sounds too good to be true"...it probably isnt true!!

scoliosis is a structural condition...so psychological treatment is NOT going to straighten a crooked spine!

and please...a cm of growth can be a manipulation of how one stands up to be measured!!!


jess

flerc
04-14-2010, 11:55 PM
mamamax, it's so interesting as all of your posts. I'm sure there exists great mysteries, at least by now. In fact I use to think about the greatest mysteries, I loved that kind of literature, I have read all the books of Carlos Castaneda, the greater brain breakers that could exists for me. But since the scoliosis entered in my life, I only could say that I'm so pragmatical.. If some System Accreditation could assure to me that QT had reverse some adult and great scoliosis as you can read in this link to the book, and supposing it was an structural one and it remains straight, I have not so many interest to know how it could works. I only would be so happy to know that exist a method that could do that.
It would be indifferent for me if it works under Quantum Physic principles or Psychological or oriental or mystic or a mixed or if in fact its a matter of intergalactic principles. Any way it would exceed me.
I'm only interesting about the founds of some method, if I think I could understand enough to be sure if it really could works or not. For instance I want to know the founds of Edf.
Please mamamax, when you talk with the SpineCor people, ask to them that question http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10276

Nice to talk with you and thanks in advance!

jrnyc
04-15-2010, 02:22 AM
some see only what they want to see...

jess

mamamax
04-15-2010, 04:56 AM
mamamax, it's so interesting as all of your posts. I'm sure there exists great mysteries, at least by now. In fact I use to think about the greatest mysteries, I loved that kind of literature, I have read all the books of Carlos Castaneda, the greater brain breakers that could exists for me. But since the scoliosis entered in my life, I only could say that I'm so pragmatical.. If some System Accreditation could assure to me that QT had reverse some adult and great scoliosis as you can read in this link to the book, and supposing it was an structural one and it remains straight, I have not so many interest to know how it could works. I only would be so happy to know that exist a method that could do that.
It would be indifferent for me if it works under Quantum Physic principles or Psychological or oriental or mystic or a mixed or if in fact its a matter of intergalactic principles. Any way it would exceed me.
I'm only interesting about the founds of some method, if I think I could understand enough to be sure if it really could works or not. For instance I want to know the founds of Edf.
Please mamamax, when you talk with the SpineCor people, ask to them that question http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10276

Nice to talk with you and thanks in advance!

flerc - please do not misunderstand me .. I am not supporting Quantum Touch - Just pondering your ponderings. Agree 100% with you - we must not be misled by quackary. Carlos Castaneda - I remember him ... being a child of the late 60's early 70's.

As for your Spinecor question, have you considered writing Dr. Rivard? Send me a PM if you would like his email address. Wishing you the very best.

flerc
04-15-2010, 06:53 AM
mamamax, surely I wrote something wrong. I ever forget to ask for saying to me when I made a mistake. It could help to improve my English too.
I had never believe that you support QT. I only supposed that you believe as me about the existence of great mysteries. I'm not sure now if I understand what you said, surely because my English knowledge.
Thanks for said me about Dr. Rivard. I'll send to you a PM. I really appreciate that.

flerc
04-15-2010, 10:43 AM
some see only what they want to see...

jess

jrnyc, do you are suggesting thay it could be say about me?

mamamax
04-15-2010, 05:54 PM
mamamax, surely I wrote something wrong. I ever forget to ask for saying to me when I made a mistake. It could help to improve my English too.
I had never believe that you support QT. I only supposed that you believe as me about the existence of great mysteries. I'm not sure now if I understand what you said, surely because my English knowledge.
Thanks for said me about Dr. Rivard. I'll send to you a PM. I really appreciate that.

You said nothing wrong flerc, I just wanted to be sure everyone understood that I was not endorsing the Touch :-) Your English is far better than my Spanish. Yes I agree with you, there are many mysteries that defy scientific explanation. One of my favorite mysteries is Edgar Cayce. Sending you a PM :-)

flerc
04-15-2010, 10:51 PM
and remember..."if it sounds too good to be true"...it probably isnt true!!

Yes, probably. I agree. I don't said anything against that.


scoliosis is a structural condition...so psychological treatment is NOT going to straighten a crooked spine!

I could say that I agree too. Also I don't said anything against that. QT founds are not (at least clearly) psychologicals


and please...a cm of growth can be a manipulation of how one stands up to be measured!!!

I can assure that if you measure to me in the exactly way that I used to meassure and if you don't made any kind of manipulation, but only a simple touch, as that people says they make, after an hour, if you meassure me again, you'll obtain exactly the same number of centimeters.


please... please dont throw money away on charlatans or quacks...lots of people like to claim lots of cures that arent real..it used to be called "selling snake oil"..there will always be those willing to take advantage of trusting people...or of desperate people...



Iím sure you are trying to help me and you are sure that QT people cannot do what they says.
Well, I could not say that I not agree. If I should to bet, Iíll bet 2 to 1 that itís a fraud as you say. Probably 4 to 1. Surely you'll bet 10 to 1, even 100 to 1. 1000 to 1? Would you bet your house? your life? the life of your dear ones?..
I donít believe that you could do that, it's so simply to say I'm sure of that when nothing could be loose if we are wrong. But if you could, I should to recognize that Iíll should to feel a great admiration for your security.
I know about some atheist with that kind of great security, that when he was abruptly confronted to the most terrific situation that he could ever imagine, he began to pray. I hope you never should to prove your security in that way, even finally that man was grateful for that proof. He fails, her security did not passed that proof, but he changed it by other one.

There exist many conservative methods belonging to the orthodox, occidental... world (such as Abr, Gpr, Fed, Schroth, SeasÖ.), much of them based over scientific researches. When I evaluate if its could works or not, I want to know about those researches and facts and the theory behind that methods. I believe that even that could be say that medicine is not an exact science, it could be analysed the effectiveness of each one of that great methods in a theoretic way. Also I want to make the same with the validity of much affirmations about scoliosis that I always heard.

But when I evaluate possible solutions that not clearly belong to that kind of world, I don't look for facts that could explain if it could works or not. The only fact I want to know is if it worked sometimes or not.
Instead of other kind of facts and arguments I look for clues.
How many therapies do you know, not clearly included into that world, telling about scoliosis what that people say can do and mentioned that in a book that is selling around the world in different languages and has trained people also around the world? They say that exist some esoteric therapies that could be seen as similar, but this is the only one that can moves bones. Why are not all this kind of therapies saying the same?
These are important clues for me

Some people believe in scientific methods or techniques or solutions without a full understanding about how it could works, and some people like me believe that some other kind of solutions belonging to other kinds of worlds could work too. Itís only a matter of beliefs.
It don't means that we could believe in everything not belonging to the scientific world. I take into account some kind of clues to distinguish its, but of course that kind of clues are something subjective.

flerc
04-15-2010, 11:54 PM
some see only what they want to see...

jess

I was writing the previous post when I read that and I decided to finish ignoring what you say here.
I could respond to that attack with other greater as I used to do in Politic Forums, but I have not neither interesting not time for that. In fact nothing more ridiculous could be expected in a forum like that.

flerc
04-16-2010, 08:28 AM
You said nothing wrong flerc, I just wanted to be sure everyone understood that I was not endorsing the Touch :-) Your English is far better than my Spanish. Yes I agree with you, there are many mysteries that defy scientific explanation. One of my favorite mysteries is Edgar Cayce. Sending you a PM :-)

Ok mamamax :). Thank you for send me her email address. I hope he could understand that I only want to know if Spinecor could do what I want to do and not if he thinks if it could works or not.
Thanks again and Iíll tell it to you when I'll recive her reply.

jrnyc
04-17-2010, 06:58 PM
flerc
i give up...no more..

i was attacking NO ONE...i was trying to offer advice...but i give up...

and by the way, i read edgar cayce when i was 16 years old!

good luck

jess

Bigbluefrog
04-17-2010, 07:07 PM
If its true ...ask for a money back guarantee;)

my sil recommended something similar it was to re energize the organs...something about her body was pulling away in areas around her pancreas...and that caused her curve...so for $200 I could pay a lady to put gentle pressure on my daughter and do body work/ body energy work similar to Reiki or QT and heal my daughter. the belief comes from healing the energy body ...we have the physical body and spiritual body ...and they believe in an energy body too.

I read up on it...its fascinating really. kinda hard to grasp if your a person with your feet on solid ground. Basically its Eastern medicine....

Bigbluefrog
04-17-2010, 07:09 PM
one more thing....I asked for referrals..and never got any...that is a sign you should save your money.....

Pooka1
04-17-2010, 07:37 PM
I was writing the previous post when I read that and I decided to finish ignoring what you say here.
I could respond to that attack with other greater as I used to do in Politic Forums, but I have not neither interesting not time for that. In fact nothing more ridiculous could be expected in a forum like that.

Fer,

Jess was not attacking you. Criticism of ideas is not attacking a person.

Everything ever discussed consists only of ideas. No ideas should be immune from criticism because then that is just dogma (misma palabra en espaŮol!). Dogma is the enemy of knowledge and learning because it cuts off conversation and in some cases leads to war.

I think maybe this song describes how sad you feel about your daughter's diagnosis from one of my favorite groups, ManŠ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pY-26dvzv8&feature=related

And another one that I just like...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B6Q35UWDyE

rohrer01
04-17-2010, 09:09 PM
Flerc,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with having an open mind. Eastern medicine uses the bodies energies to produce healing, as some people believe. Things like accupuncture, accupressure (this really can relieve symptoms of muscle spasm and headache and even cause contractions in a pregnant woman - tried it with my daughter :p - but I also think there is more to this one medically by pressing on certain nerve centers), and reflexology use these theories. I have tried reflexology, but found it to have nothing more than the placebo effect, for I got no results from it. I found it a little freaky to go through the procedure. Just don't get SO caught up in things that you don't get taken advantage of. Many people swear by accupuncture for things. I have a friend who is seeing an accupuncturist for GI troubles and feels she is getting relief. Just remember, that there is the placebo effect AND not every treatment method will work for every disease, even if it may seem so in theory. Keep your mind open, and you just may find a way to get your daughter to cooperate and seek the help she needs. Don't get so obsessed about the scoliosis and forget about her. You seem like a GREAT dad!

Kindly,
Rohrer01

Pooka1
04-17-2010, 10:01 PM
Good advice in the last post.

I'll just add that you should not have so open a mind such that your brain falls out! :)

flerc
04-18-2010, 12:56 AM
Hola Sharon, a mi tambiťn me gusta Mana. Muy buenos los temas, muy expresivos realmente, gracias.
Fer,

Jess was not attacking you. Criticism of ideas is not attacking a person.

Everything ever discussed consists only of ideas. No ideas should be immune from criticism because then that is just dogma (misma palabra en espaŮol!). Dogma is the enemy of knowledge and learning because it cuts off conversation and in some cases leads to war.




some see only what they want to see...

jess
it's referring to someone, not to an idea. If someone wants to offers advice, would try to say it in a respect way.
That’s exactly what so many doctors and people who are absolutely sure that conservative methods don't works says to me. They refuse to answer my questions and don’t make me see what kind of mistake I’m making in what I say, they only try to convince me, but I don' want to believe blindly in anyone, it would be some kind of dogma.
But even if nobody had never told me that before, this is an aggression and a so direct one. In fact I prefer that kind of verbal aggression than others like irony, but anyway is an attack. This could only be say about people so much illogic, irrational, or desperate.
May be one day I could fall into this category, but not yet!

flerc
04-18-2010, 01:18 AM
one more thing....I asked for referrals..and never got any...that is a sign you should save your money.....

thanks Bigbluefrog, that's the kind of signs I'm looking for. In fact I have a big problem with referrals. I must to believe I'm so bad looking for them. Only once I was decided to find its because I was so shocked with what I read about a method than I wanted to talk with someone that proved it and finally I found so many of them, but after some days. It was ABR http://www.blyum.com/ABR_concept.html
I found a yahoo group. But nobody out of these group I had never found, so I think that much referrals could exist even I could not read about them, but I trust in you and I'll take in account what you said.