PDA

View Full Version : Can Chiropractic care cause scoliosis to get worse?



rohrer01
03-25-2010, 01:55 PM
I hope I don't offend anyone by this question. I have had a "stable" curve practically my whole life. I was diagnosed with scoliosis at age 16 with an 39* upper thoracic curve. Over the years it has varied between 36* and 41*. I started going to a chiropractor for pain (thought I would try another time - been to many in the past). My curve has ALWAYS been very stiff and I have never been able to get any adjustment in that area (no popping - only pain if they tried). My new chiropractor really got in there and crunched it (EXTREMELY painful). She told me to be patient and she would try different techniques on me. I seemed to eventually get some relief but would go 2 to 3 times per week during flare-ups and once or twice a month otherwise. I seemed to be having more flare-ups but lasting shorter times 2 to 3 weeks vs. a month or more. The upper part of my spine eventually really loosened up where sometimes she would barely touch the skin and POW it would adjust.

Well, I recently went to my 5 year follow-up with my orthopedic spine specialist and found out my curve is now progressive at 46*. I will most likely need surgery (I'm hoping soon) due to severe pain. I'm on very strong narcotics and muscle relaxers (fentanyl, percocet, soma, klonopin) to control the severe pain.

Is this just coincidence that I am suddenly "progressive" or could the chiropractic care have caused this? I'm leary to go back. I have gone only once since I found out my bad news (mainly to let her know about the progression). She really didn't say anything about me progressing. I would have expected SOME sort of feedback. She is a really nice gal, so I don't want to talk bad about her. I had always thought chiropractic was quackery and she had me convinced otherwise. Now I'm confused. I'm sure it has its place, but is there anyone else out there with an opinion or information that might support that chiropractic can actually be HARMFUL to the scoliotic spine?
:confused:

Karen Ocker
03-25-2010, 02:41 PM
I don't think there is an answer to that question.

In the 6th grade my mom sent me to a chiro 3 times a week. I ended up with such a severe curve. Everyone in my family has scoliosis except my dad. None of them had chiro and none of them ended up with a curve like mine. I have often wondered why I became SO much worse than everyone else.

rohrer01
03-25-2010, 02:49 PM
I should add that I am now 41 years old.:eek:

joyfull
03-25-2010, 04:50 PM
I had an intensive course of chiropractic treatment at Clear Institute. Due to weights that were applied to the rib hump while I was on something called the Eckhart table, I believe my curve went over more to the side and became more concave on the left. When I asked the chiro about this, he told me that that's what he wanted to happen and now his goal was to move everything over to the center. Suffice it to say that I am scheduled for surgery on June 8th.

I don't think anyone really knows for sure about these things. Can you feel any shifting? I was able to feel my back become flatter and the curve shift to the right. People say it looks better, but I'm much more lopsided

I am 57 and have gone to several chiropractors over the years. Most were too humble to try to effect any real change and were careful with my back. I would stick with bodywork or massage. Good luck, Joy

LindaRacine
03-25-2010, 10:16 PM
If you were to use the logic that some have used (where anecdotal = absolute proof), chiropractic can definitely make scoliosis worse. My scoliosis got much worse (in both progression and pain) in the year in which I saw a chiropractor 3 times a week. So, that's you, me, and Karen. That's obviously more than enough proof.

:rolleyes:

allycat
03-26-2010, 08:04 AM
This is a fascinating topic. I was diagnosed at 13. The options presented to my parents were to take the wait and see approach and hope I wasn't an invalid by the time I was an adult or to perform surgery with Harrington rods, put me in a body cast for a year and then hope I never had a car wreck because the rods could break and I would be paralyzed. Needless to say they were completely freaked out! My mom decided to try a chiropractor she had heard about that had done miracles for a friend of hers. The friend didn't have scoliosis but some other issue. I saw the chiro religiously for about 10 years. Then, as a young adult having no pain at all, I stopped going and never gave it another thought. By the time I began having pain, he had long since retired. At the insistence of my mom, I saw other chiros off and on for about 5 years but none of them helped. Duh!
After reading the posts above, I have to wonder if my scoliosis would have progressed if I had not taken the chiro route. I know that's a question that can never be answered but it certainly is something to think about. My mom, God love her, is desperate to find something, anything, to help my pain. She's really pushing me to see a retired chiro that she just loves. He takes on a few patients at his home. According to him, 95% of his patients are scolio patients. He does "contact reflex analysis" to determine where the problems are then has you purchase all these "supplements" that help build different systems that control the pain. His "practice" is based on the teachings of another "doctor" that, in my opinion, is a quack. I could go on and on about this idiot, but will save it for another time. Not a chance in this world am I going down that road!!!! I love my mom but some times she's just a little out there!
I am the only one in my immediate family with scoliosis and as far as I know, none of my aunts, uncles or cousins have it so I do not have anyone close to compare to. As I said above, I have to wonder where I would be now if I had never gone to the chiro. Something to ponder.

rohrer01
03-27-2010, 10:00 AM
I guess I am pretty convinced that the chiropractor did more harm than good, although her 'intentions' were only the best. I really think that someone out there should collect some data of scoliosis outcomes with and without chiropractic. It makes me sad to think that I was SOOO desperate to try to control the pain without meds that I actually opted for a treatment that caused me harm. Randomized samples are really hard to get, but if it could be done and it be PROVEN that chiro is harmful for this one condition, then chiropractors could be educated on how to handle or NOT handle these cases. I know that the chiropractic "theory" that is taught is that ALL diseases stem from subluxations of the spine. We simply know that is not true. But on the other hand there are some really good chiro's out there that do help some people. My chiropractor is really good in the sense that she is humble enough to realize that there are just some things she can't help and will refer to regular MD's and PT's etc. I was working in conjunction with my regular MD. I would get the pain meds from him during a flare-up and "dope" myself up for lack of better words so that I could get my adjustments. I guess if it hurt that bad to be manipulated, it should have clued me in. Hind sight is always 20/20. Maybe the good that will come of this is that my scoli is finally bad enough to operate on - or soon will be- and the surgery will bring me the much needed pain relief. At least that's what I'm hoping! Thank's for all the replies on this topic. Keep them coming. I know there has to be some research people that visit this forum that may have some statistical information.
You all have a great day!
:D

LindaRacine
03-27-2010, 01:17 PM
Rohrer...

To be honest, I don't think any of us trust the chiropractors who would have the financial incentive to conduct an RCT, to actually produce a study that we could trust. (If you catch my drift!)

And, while the anecdotal evidence you've read about above leads you to believe that you were hurt by chiropractic care, there's actually zero proof of that.

Hopefully, some day we'll actually know.

Regards,
Linda

debbei
03-27-2010, 03:55 PM
You know, it's funny. Some of us saw chiro's when we were younger BECAUSE of our scoliosis; and some of us avoided chiro's BECAUSE of our scoliosis.

I was in the 2nd group. It just didn't make sense to me to have someone messing around with me back that was messed up to begin with. And I didn't start having pain until a few years prior to surgery.

rohrer01
03-27-2010, 06:15 PM
About the control study, I would NEVER trust one conducted by strictly chiro's, MD's, ortho's, neuro's, etc. It would have to consist of a randomized study that included them ALL done by a non-biased outside source. While I have my suspicions that my curve may have been "broken-loose" by the adjustments, you are absolutely right in that I have NO proof. It could just be my age and the disease itself finally progressing. It would be nice to know what the best treatment is, though, so we know how to take care of our children and ourselves. Thanks for all the input!
:D

rohrer01
03-29-2010, 12:01 AM
I am actually tempted to make an chiro appointment tomorrow. Don't know why? I'm hoping for some relief not given by drugs, but I'm on them anyway. It would probably just lay me up for another day or two. I'm nuts! I need reinforcements here. She's just so "nice" and I know she would NEVER intentionally hurt anyone. She catches so much flack from the medical community, I feel sorry for her. :(

Pooka1
03-29-2010, 05:55 AM
Chiro as massage might help some folks. But...

Chiro is not a science.

Chiro is not based on neurology, anatomy and physiology.

Chiros are not doctors of the nervous system.

There is no evidence chiro improves health and quality of life.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=59

From that article:


Chiropractic is not a science, but that doesn’t mean that nothing they do is based on science. There is evidence that spinal manipulation therapy is effective for some kinds of low back pain. It is no more effective than other treatments for low back pain, but is a viable option for patients who prefer it. It is not exclusive to chiropractors, but is also used by physical therapists, physiatrists and doctors of osteopathy. In essence, the one “claim to fame” that chiropractors have is not really anything uniquely chiropractic but is a manual therapy shared with other disciplines.

There are a few chiropractors like Samuel Homola, author of Inside Chiropractic, who limit their practice to short-term treatment of musculoskeletal problems, who reject the subluxation myth, and who try to provide rational, evidence-based care. I respect them, especially the ones who have been attacked by their colleagues for speaking out in favor of science and reason.

---------------

Furthermore, chiros should not be treating scoliosis in adults and especially not in children... note to Clear...

http://www.chirobase.org/17QA/scoliosis.html

http://www.chirobase.org/17QA/lifetime.html

The chiro section of Quackwatch seems to have gotten so large that they had to create another area, Chirobase, to hold the wackiness.

There are honest chiros. But finding one may be akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

rohrer01
03-29-2010, 07:50 AM
Even though I have my doubts about chiropractic. I must say in their defense. They go through just as much schooling as an MD. I have a BS in Cell and Molecular Biology (a one-up on the pre-meds). There were those in my major going on to colleges of Chiropractic. They study the human body very in depth and do a LOT of cadaver work, just like MD's. So as far as how much actual science is behind it, I'm not sure. The one thing that stands out in my mind during my university days (graduated in 2003) is that the more you learn, the more you know you DON'T know. No one, as far as I have ever heard really knows what makes the "popping" noise when we pop our joints. There are theories, but no one can prove or say for sure. It does make scientific sense that if a nerve is pinched by a subluxation and is freed, then you would get better flow of signals to the brain. However, I will NEVER believe that ALL illnesses are caused by subluxations of the spine. That is just rediculous. Many people do benefit by adjustments, so there has to be some science behind it, unique to chiropractors or not. I am just wondering if scoliosis should be one of those "hands-off" things for chiropractors, since SO much is involved. It angers me when I hear chiros say they can cure it, because the cold hard facts are that they can't. However, I think I have a more balance view of their place in healthcare. They are not all bad. And just like any other "professional" some have egos that get in the way of their work. Others are humble. I think that whatever the "profession" is, a humble person most always does a better job because they realize their limitations. Maybe I'm rambling, but I don't think I will continue to have my daughter see the chiro for her scoliosis, but maybe for other things like headaches.
I actually sprained my ankle this winter and the chiro adjusted my ankle and it felt tremendously better. I would have never thought. We all have our opinions. I just like to share them. I feel that the better informed we are, the more choices we have to make the best decisions for ourselves. You all have a great day!
;)

rohrer01
03-29-2010, 08:05 AM
Oh, and thank you for your articles. I think I will search the nih and/or cdc databases and see what I can come up with. I will post what I find.

joyfull
03-29-2010, 08:59 AM
Rohrer, I agree with your conclusions. Chiropractic definitely has its place in health care and has been helpful to many. Looking back after 57 years and after seeing many chiropractors, I would be very wary of having my spine adjusted, since overall it seems to have done more harm than good. That's just my anecdotal experience. Take care, Joy

Pooka1
03-29-2010, 02:28 PM
Even though I have my doubts about chiropractic. I must say in their defense. They go through just as much schooling as an MD. I have a BS in Cell and Molecular Biology (a one-up on the pre-meds). There were those in my major going on to colleges of Chiropractic. They study the human body very in depth and do a LOT of cadaver work, just like MD's.

They may go through as much schooling but what does it take to gain admittance?

http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/adm.html

It is hard to believe the chiro students are performing at the same level as the medical students based on this information.

This is a HUGE reason why only board certified pediatric orthopedic surgeons experienced with scoliosis cases would be treating children with scoliosis.

michael1960
03-29-2010, 07:26 PM
Very interesting information regarding chiropractors admission requirements. Thanks for sharing.

It looks like for medical doctors and chiropractors, they are both required to have a 2.5 but for medical doctors the average GPA is around 3.7 (for some schools I found), with 95% of them being above a 3.2 GPA. And for some chiropractor schools (the ones I found) only 25% were above a 3.5 with the average closer to 3.0-3.5.

Next time I go to a chiropractor I will be concerned whether he or she was the 2.5 student or the 3.5 student. I guess we can conclude that there are some chiropractors who are smarter and more disciplined than some medical doctors, but much harder to find.

Pooka1
03-29-2010, 08:07 PM
The average minimum GPA required for chiro school is 2.38. That's like a "C."

The average GPA admitted is 2.90. So assuming a normal distribution around that number, about HALF of those admitted had a GPA of < 2.90. That means half had a GPA < "C+."

There is no damn way I would be comfortable taking my kid to a chiro given that. Not even for free.

YMMV.

Pooka1
03-29-2010, 08:10 PM
Very interesting information regarding chiropractors admission requirements. Thanks for sharing.

It looks like for medical doctors and chiropractors, they are both required to have a 2.5 but for medical doctors the average GPA is around 3.7 (for some schools I found), with 95% of them being above a 3.2 GPA. And for some chiropractor schools (the ones I found) only 25% were above a 3.5 with the average closer to 3.0-3.5.

Next time I go to a chiropractor I will be concerned whether he or she was the 2.5 student or the 3.5 student. I guess we can conclude that there are some chiropractors who are smarter and more disciplined than some medical doctors, but much harder to find.

I don't know where you are getting these numbers. Can you post the source? Is it a chiro college or association? We have already seen fallacious numbers from chiro associations.

RitaR
03-29-2010, 08:10 PM
I never went to a back crusher....I would just shy away and turn the other direction when I would hear anything about asking about my back. I knew I had the best dr in the country working with me so I wasn't worried about that end of it. A chiropractor couldn't do much more if I had the world's best dr working with me (Dr. Lenke in St. Louis).

michael1960
03-29-2010, 09:11 PM
You should know that I would not use some fallacious numbers from some chiro association. By the way the information your referenced came from a journal whose purpose is dedicated to the advancement of chiropractic health care. Also, it is from 1997 (13 yr. old study), most of the colleges require a 2.5 like medical doctors. However, the average GPA is much greater for medical doctors. I don't think I ever questioned that point.

I also noticed that when some chiro sites use 13 yr. old medical studies to discuss all the bad surgeries from the 80s and 90s we discredit them, but then we use a 13 yr. old chiropractic study, it is ok.

I pulled my data from the first internet site I found from a chiropractic college campus (Palmer) presenting pre-admisison GPAs. I grabbed data from the first campus on the list for a 2008 quarter.

2.5-3.0 28
3.0-3.5 40
3.5-4.0 22

I put the average at the middle section since 28 below and 22 above. Probably would had been more accurate to be 3.0-3.25, something like that. It is hard to tell since we do not have actual data. If you look at my points, I did not question any of your findings. Only said it was very interesting.

Except, that we all have to assume that some chiropractors are smarter than medical doctors!

By the way, what is the reason for 100,000-200,000 medical deaths per year due to medical errors? That is a lot of people dying from medical incompetence!

Always enjoy the conversations on chiropractors vs medical doctors.

Thanks

rohrer01
03-29-2010, 10:22 PM
Ouch! I didn't mean to open a can of worms this large. They all have their places. I did go to my chiropractor today and talked to her about my progression and possible surgery. They teach in chiropractic schools that they can "cure" scoliosis. I didn't argue the point with her. I did say that I wondered if the loosening of my thoracic spine could have sped up the progression that would have happened anyway. She agreed that there was no way to know for sure (which I feel is a humble statement). She said she never advocates surgery, however I have tried every conservative thing out there and am just one of those rare cases. She said that she hoped it helped me and was still willing to help with the non-fused regions of my spine when I'm done. She also adjusts other body parts. I sprained my ankle and she did a wonderful job making it feel better.

I guess, when I was at university, I was surprised to see that a young man sitting next to me in organic chemistry (and definitely seemed smarter than me and I am in the 3.5 - 4.0 range with honors) was studying to be a chiropractor. I guess it changed my view a bit, since I had bad experiences as a younger person, so assumed that they were not educated. I realized that they are educated. We must realize that whatever the profession a person chooses, SOMEONE always comes in LAST in their class. On the contrary, SOMEONE always comes in FIRST, too.

I think chiropractic has its place, just not with every spine. So my final word of caution is choose your healthcare wisely. If you choose chiropractic and see improvement, then maybe you are one that it works for. If no improvement, don't do it. If you choose not to go the route of a chiropractor, be careful and select a doctor from the SRS. I have had bad experiences with MD quackery, DO quackery and Chiropractic quackery. There are good and bad ones of all sorts out there. My personal feelings for sure are to stick with the standards of the Scoliosis Research Society. They seem to have the best.

Sorry if I upset anyone. Not my intention at all. :(

LynetteG
03-29-2010, 10:44 PM
I'd like to put my 2 cents in here also. I've been having chiropractic care regularly for the last eight years, and in the last eight years my scoliosis curves progressed rapidly. Also being a licensed massage therapist, I am amazed at the amount of times that chiropracters bring you in and adjust you without having the person massaged first. The tissue should be warmed up and made more pliable by a massage therapist first who would work in the chiropractors office, and then you should be adjusted. But most chiropractors that I've worked with, adjust first - that is not good.

rohrer01
03-29-2010, 10:59 PM
...and maybe having things "speed-up" may not sound good. A progressive scoliosis is never a good thing. I look at it in this positive light. I have ALWAYS had pain and NOTHING ever really helped with flare-up except heavy meds. Exercise reduced the frequency of flare-ups but not the pain involved. My curve was always too small to do anything about. Now, because of a "bad" thing, I may be able to get it fixed. It's kind of a paradox, don't you think? I am really hoping that I can finally have surgery and get some relief. Thank you all for sharing your heartfelt feelings on the matter. I hope you all have a GREAT night. ;)

I wish I knew 10 years ago what I know now. My daughter was diagnosed with scoliosis at about age 11. Our GP sent her to an ortho doctor who measured her curves in the teens or low 20's - I can't remember now. At her last visit at about age 12, he told her she was done growing and her curve was so mild it would never progress and he wouldn't even consider it scoliosis. Stupid me believed him. Now I can't even get her to consider getting it checked, just to have a baseline. She says, "I don't have scoliosis." I can see her curve, but it does not hurt her. She says if her back ever hurts, then she'll get it checked. I can understand not wanting to be exposed to the x-rays, but a baseline from a legitimate specialist isn't going to hurt her (for crying out loud, she has insurance that will cover 100%!). She's 20 years old, so I can't make her decisions for her anymore. I just should have informed myself better is all. :( At least, from this discussion, she says she's not going to go to the chiropractor as much. She doesn't think they should treat scoliosis. That's what she recently told me anyway.

joyfull
03-29-2010, 11:03 PM
I'm reminded of the old joke: What do you a call a person who graduates last in his class at medical school?

Doctor. (The same could be said of chiropractors, of course.)

rohrer01
03-30-2010, 12:29 AM
:eek: AHHHHHH!!!

Pooka1
03-30-2010, 07:55 AM
I'm reminded of the old joke: What do you a call a person who graduates last in his class at medical school?

Doctor. (The same could be said of chiropractors, of course.)

That's a good one. I have used it.

Yeah but in this case, the person who graduates last in his class at the worse medical school is likely miles ahead of the person who graduates last in his class at the best chiro school.

There are honest competent chiros. But those are not the ones claiming to be able to treat scoliosis in kids and adults.

beauvais
04-01-2010, 02:03 PM
As with any Doctor, the difference between different Chiropractors is very vast. Some adjust you right when you walk in the door, some use diagnostic techniques to see if you need adjusting. We've found a great Chiropractor, who also practices the Pettibon technique. Both my kids have scoliosis, but I see him, too (btw, chiropractors have helped me IMMENSELY, but I don't have Scoliosis, so I don't apply to this "debate") :) Anyway, my children are rarely ever adjusted because their hips are in alignment when they go in - as long as they are balanced, he just has them do their therapy (involving weights placed strategically on the body to retrain the body's way of holding itself). I feel he uses a lot more evidence and science to back up his work and he always takes the time to discuss why he does things (we discuss the physics, as I'm an Engineer and value that type of discussion). Anyway, just my 2 Cents worth. We use a balanced approach of bracing, Pettibon/Chiropractic, and soon Schroth.

beauvais
04-01-2010, 02:04 PM
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that we go to one of the top Pediatric Orthopedists in our State - also part of our balanced approach. :)

michael1960
04-01-2010, 04:40 PM
Tina

I want to compliment you on your multi-disciplinary approach to scoliosis. Maybe it is an engineer thing. I am an engineer from school and we have done many of the same things. We are doing some Pettibon therapy, recently learned some Schroth exercises, utilizing the SpineCor brace and Boston brace. And investigating our VBS options.

We have seen 4 different pediatric orthopedic surgeons and 3 different chiropractors. I am always looking for the common treatments or suggestions within the orthopedic surgeons and within the chiropractors, and common treatments/suggestions across all of them. We have narrowed it down to 2 pediatric orthopedic surgeons and 1 chiropractor that we are working with at this time.

Our experience working with the chiropractor is much more about physical therapy/exercise than spinal/neck adjustments. While most orthopedic surgeons we have worked with do not recommend physical therapy/exercise, most have commented that it will not hurt. And even within the orthopedic surgeons one will recommend a brace and the other will not recommend it.

The one chiropractor that we have worked with the most supports the Clear method, Pettibon method, and SpineCor brace. As I look back to our therapy it is more Pettibon than anything else, including all of the home exercises.

I respect the approach that you are taking.

I too have been very involved in trying to fully understand how it all works, but I do get a bit confused when I see common treatments/suggestions contradict each other. For example, the muscles around the spine. Which ones should be stretched vs which ones should be strengthened? I hear several different "theories" on it.

In some cases some of the work that we have done with the chiropractor has resulted in loosening up the spine, which resulted in a greater curve, but then 6-8 weeks later, the increased curve was reduced and then improved compared to when we started. So, what role does "loosening up the spine" play in helping or hurting the curve progression. Does it make a brace more effective? No research studies available for that (or wearing two braces).

Sorry for the rambling. Thanks for sharing with us everything you are doing.

Thank You

rohrer01
04-01-2010, 11:29 PM
No, you are not rambling. I have not heard of these techniques. If, in the case of an adult, the spine could be loosened, as I believe mine was, then a brace just might work! So many are quick to say you are done growing so bracing is pointless. Well, yes it is, IF you are only using the brace to stabilize a growing spine. BUT, to loosen a stiff spine, brace it, then tighten it back up sounds like we might be on to something here. I would venture to say that it would be VERY difficult to find a "team" of doctors knowledgeable enough and willing enough to work together to try this approach, at least for those of us in the general population. I might mention it to my doctors anyway, just so I can hear them laugh at me. :rolleyes:

dailystrength
04-02-2010, 06:35 PM
My chiropractor makes no claims, and says that for scoliosis, the Dr. has to be gentle. I have let him adjust me (and I get a massage thrown in also, for the one co-pay!) and really I just go for the massage, but I trust him with the "gentle" cracks (just 3). I showed him my x-ray. Anyway... for what that's worth. I used to go regularly but then moved further away, and then a few years later found out my curve had worsened, so I wondered if that was the culprit, but recently I've gone back that one time- seems no harm done. I may continue once a month or so.

rohrer01
04-04-2010, 10:16 AM
Well, I went back to my chiropractor. She did adjustments on my curves and my neck but left the lumbar region alone. I think with the possibility of a fracture, she doesn't want to risk it. It didn't send me into spasms like I was afraid would happen, but I did get pain in different areas than I have been fighting for the last month or so. I just figure, if it helps with the pain, even though the curve may be increasing from it, I am okay with it. I would like to have the surgery because I truly believe the pain is coming from the curves. This way maybe I can get my surgery sooner. I may be repeating myself here. Sorry if I am.
:o
One thing about my chiropractor that I really like is the fact that she feels the muscles around the area she is going to adjust. If there are ANY muscle spasms there at all, she will not even attempt to adjust until she has massaged the spasm out. Well, with one exception. She went after my neck once and it didn't budge but hurt like the dicken's! She then spent about 10 minutes massaging it and THEN got good adjustment there. It sent very strong nerve shocks down both arms, which was quite disturbing. Made me nervouse. I'm always afraid of getting paralyzed. There are definitely risks involved with chiropractic care. I think I had to sign a waiver saying that I wouldn't sue her if there was damage done, since it is the nature of therapy that accidents can happen. I don't think I will be taking my son back to see her, though.

Pooka1
04-04-2010, 10:21 AM
http://www.chirobase.org/

Dangers

* Chiropractic's Dirty Secret: Neck Manipulation and Strokes (link to another site)
* Canadian Neurologists Warn against Neck Manipulation (posted 3/13/02)
* Coroner's Jury Concludes That Neck Manipulation Killed Canadian Woman (posted 1/22/04)
* Malpractice Is an Inevitable Result of Chiropractic Philosophy and Training (1979) (posted 11/7/98)
* Neck911USA.com (link to information about neck manipulation)

rohrer01
04-04-2010, 10:39 AM
Pooka1,
I think your logic is working! If I won't take my son back, why would I go???? The arm thing scared me pretty bad and she didn't even seem phased by it. Hmmmm......:confused:

rohrer01
04-04-2010, 10:41 AM
So many people swear by chiro's though. Why, if they are causing more harm than good. Why would insurance companies even touch them?

Pooka1
04-04-2010, 10:54 AM
So many people swear by chiro's though. Why, if they are causing more harm than good. Why would insurance companies even touch them?

There are honest chiros and insurance should cover them as massage therapists. There is nothing unique to chiro that other physical therapists don't do despite their claims. Thus they can help people with short-term issues. I was helped a bit during my herniated disc episode by an honest chiro who admitted the pain would go away when the vertebra fused on their own whether or not I came in for treatment. Insurance should pay for these short-term, very limited uses of chiro.

Chiros should be disallowed by law to treat scoliosis in kids and should be heavily discouraged from treating scoliosis in adults.

Pooka1
04-04-2010, 10:55 AM
Pooka1,
I think your logic is working! If I won't take my son back, why would I go???? The arm thing scared me pretty bad and she didn't even seem phased by it. Hmmmm......:confused:

By the way, it's not my logic and I'm not trying to "work" this forum. :)

The facts speak for themselves.

rohrer01
04-04-2010, 02:58 PM
She did say something to me that kind of bothered me. She said, that she wished that she could have gotten her hands on me thirty years ago, but that was before they learned that chiropractic could cure scoliosis. As far as I know they have always claimed to be able to cure any disease - if they were "true" followers of the inventor of chiropractic (I can't remember the guys name for some reason). I have had so many chiropractors and D.O.'s tell me that they could cure me. I NEVER believed any of that, except when I was 16 and super gullible. I pretty much go to her because it feels good to get the knots rubbed out and popped. I know a lot of people that crunch each other, which a chiro will tell you NEVER to do. However, when they work on you it is also "blindly". I was upset at my chirpractor for attempting to adjust my lower back several times when I told her I fell on ice, because she didn't take an x-ray or anything and only made it feel worse. She doesn't touch it now that the doctor said it could be fractured. There are a lot of red flags there, but so are there with any chiropractor or D.O. that I've been to. There is a very popular D.O. here that I remember going to a seminar to learn to specifically treat scoliosis. It never made sense to me. So all in all, I guess when I go it is for the massage relief, which I am teaching my daughter to do at home.
The shooting nerve sensation down my arms REALLY scared me and still does. But I guess not enough to keep me from going back. She does seem to give me relief with those painful muscle spasms and headaches. I suppose I should have told her I was upset for trying to adjust my lower back. Open communication is the best if anyone is going to have a good relationship with his or her doctor. I will ask the neurosurgeon and the pain doctor about continuing with chiropractic when I see them on the 8th. I want to feel better, but I don't want to be crippled either. I have always had mixed feelings about chiropractic. I told mine right to her face when I started seeing her that I would give it one more shot, but have always felt it was quackery. Kind of straight forward but she took it well and has worked very hard with me.
I hope you don't really think that I think you are trying to work the frorum into getting people to go along with your ideas, because I don't. I just said that because this has ALWAYS been a questionable topic to me, and when I hear a strong argument either way it really can sway me to some degree, because I'm not staunch in my belief in it one way or the other. I'm sure no one else feels that way about you either. You are just as concerned about others as the rest of us are. You just happened to be strong in your convictions about this therapy, and have taken the time to educate yourself on it, which is what I SHOULD be doing as well. I appreciate your information.
:)

rohrer01
04-04-2010, 03:50 PM
Pooka1, see your private message.

The Chiropractor guy's name is Palmer. I don't know why I can never remember that! :rolleyes:

Pooka1
04-04-2010, 06:53 PM
I hope you don't really think that I think you are trying to work the forum into getting people to go along with your ideas, because I don't. I just said that because this has ALWAYS been a questionable topic to me, and when I hear a strong argument either way it really can sway me to some degree, because I'm not staunch in my belief in it one way or the other. I'm sure no one else feels that way about you either. You are just as concerned about others as the rest of us are. You just happened to be strong in your convictions about this therapy, and have taken the time to educate yourself on it, which is what I SHOULD be doing as well. I appreciate your information.
:)

Hey no problem! I responded to your PM and thanks for sending it by the way. :)

My posts are too factual for many around here. It took me a while to realize that some folks don't want to know the straight dope sometimes. Some react with ignoring me and some are quickly persuaded. I don't think either of those reactions is appropriate for those seeking facts.

My intention is just to make folks think FOR THEMSELVES. Some folks have never done that before it seems. There have been some patently ridiculous exchanges in evidence of this.

Just THINK. That's my hope for folks here and everywhere. If folks would do that there would be less pseudoscience in the world.

You are thinking for yourself and have voiced your opinion to your chiro. That's very good! The facts about chiro are on your side in that. Chiro claims are nonsense when they go beyond massage.

mariaf
04-04-2010, 07:48 PM
Chiros should be disallowed by law to treat scoliosis in kids and should be heavily discouraged from treating scoliosis in adults.

Well said! I feel particularly strong that a chiro should never touch a child with scoliosis...period.

dailystrength
04-04-2010, 09:15 PM
Speaking of cracking backs, I am wondering if anyone else experiences cracking of their backs. I am learning new postures through practicing the exercises in the book I am using (Curves, Twists, and Bends), and from sitting on my balance ball chair. I will ask my Dr. in a few weeks but I thought I'd throw it out here (and in case I forget to ask him)- I am constantly hearing cracks, as I pull up out of my curves, now that I am able to stretch out of them somewhat. As I push out of my left lumbar curve, I hear my back crack all the way up, from lumbar, to thoracic, to neck, and lastly, my jaw readjusts. I am wondering if this is at all harmful. Thanks....:confused:

michael1960
04-04-2010, 09:57 PM
Fact based? Come on Pooka1, the last time you promoted "fact based" points you did not have any facts. You should be careful telling members you are using facts to base your comments/opinions. They may actually start to believe you and trust you.

The last time we discussed this I mentioned that 100,000-200,000 people die each year due to medical errors. I don't know but I would guess that a much smaller number die per year from chiropractic care.

I have used chiropractors since I was 16. Relocating my shoulders, fixing a pinched nerve in my hip, removing the pain from migraine headaches, etc. My 14 year old son complained for a couple years of his hip hurting. I took him to an pediatric orthopedic for x-rays (always my first trip). They said nothing was wrong with him. My son continued to complain, especially when playing soccer. I went to a chiropractor and he offered to check my son and showed me how one leg was shorter than another, due to his hip be out of place. He did his adjustment, my son felt a "pop" by his hip, and has never complained again. Would I use this chiropractor for my daughter? NO. But I would consider a chiropractor that is trained in the methods that I believe are worth trying (i.e. Schroth, Pettibon, SpineCor, etc.)

I agree it is important to find an honest chiropractor (and medical doctor). But unfortunately there is no listing for honest vs dishonest chiropractors as well as medical doctors, except those expressed by patients.

Regarding children with scoliosis. Sorry, Maria, you know I am not going to agree with you. Many (maybe most) orthopedic surgeons feel that bracing does not work (very similar to chiropractors) and so they recommend letting scoliosis take its natural course until surgery is required at approximately 30-35 degrees for stapling, or 35-45 degrees for stapling and growing rod (hybrid rod), or 45+ degrees for growing rods (if not mature skeleton) or spinal fusion for mature skeleton. And in some cases, growing rods until they mature and then spinal fusion.

Many of us are not yet willing to give up on non-surgical methods which include bracing and physical therapy. Bracing (hard or flexible) is done with an orthotist or a chiropractor (flexible brace only).

When it comes to physical therapy: Schroth, Pettibon, etc or exercises like Pilates, Yoga, etc. we are all still hoping that these will work, and willing to try them to avoid surgery. What is the risk of using these methods? Dr. Betz, Dr. Durrani, and other orthopedic surgeons do not see a risk in these methods. The do not feel they will help, but also do not feel they will hurt.

So, who performs Schroth and Pettibon? Who provides the SpineCor flexible brace (which was recommended by Children's Hospital pediatric orthopedic surgeon and supported by Dr. Betz and Dr. Durrani for my daughter to wear part-time)? Primarily physical therapists (for Schroth) and Chiropractors for Pettibon and SpineCor (and some chiropractors are now getting trained in Schroth). So, if you want to try one of these non-surgical methods, who are you supposed to see?

When my daughter sees a chiropractor he/she does not focus on spinal/neck adjustments. They don't "crack her neck". They use methods that have shown some positive results to decrease the curve. Does it work for everyone? No. Neither does bracing. Neither does surgery.

And let's not forget, we have orthopedic surgeons, like Dr. Betz and Dr. Durrani, putting nickel, titanium, stainless steel, etc. implants into our children and they are not sure of the long term affects. When Dr. Betz did stapling on children with curves over 35 degrees he was experimenting. He was "hoping" it would work, turns out it did not work for some. So these children had to have a growing rod (hybrid rod) installed and are now subject to surgeries every 6 months. This could be 10-15 surgeries for a child. Every surgery puts a child at risk.

Let's all keep an open mind that neither the medical doctors, physical therapists, or chiropractors have the solution. And, spinal fusion, unfortunately, in my mind, is the absolute last solution, but it is the only surgical method recommended by the Scoliosis Research Society (SRS). As we have discussed the SRS does not recommend vertebrae body stapling and it does not recommend the flexible brace. Does this mean they are not effective? Only time will tell. But I see chiropractors and orthopedic surgeons experimenting on our children.

Until our children are required to have surgery, like my daughter Syd, we are going to pursue non-surgical methods. And, the path to these non-surgical methods will lead us to physical therapists as well as chiropractors.

So, let's not condemn the chiropractors, but only condemn the bad chiropractors and condemn the bad orthopedic surgeons (and other medical professionals).

With Dr. Betz and Shriners Hospital, we have found good ones! But it is not without trial & error for many of us. Dr. Betz was the 3rd orthopedic surgeon in our journey and Dr. Durrani is our 4th.

OK. Sorry, could not sit back and once again read the chiropractor bashing. I have no invested interest other than to provide the idea that we should be well educated in our decision making and we should be open to new ideas. I could very easily claim that my daughter reached 36 degrees (from 23) by following the advice of the first orthopedic surgeon to do nothing (watch it) and then following the advice of the second orthopedic surgeon to do nothing after he did not recognize the curve had progressed because the x-ray was improperly taken. It was a chiropractor that initially recognized the x-ray was wrong and diagnosed Syd with a 36 degree curve (and confirmed by orthopedic surgeons 3 and 4). Was this medical incompetence? What if we would had braced her at 23? She may be below 20 or below 15 today. But now we are fighting a 36 degree curve. I am very thankful to the competence of the chiropractor who knew how to take and read an x-ray properly.

The emphasis should be on finding the "good one" who is practicing the non-surgical methods for scoliosis that each of us believe in. Let's not get wrapped up in who performs it. If you do not like the "spinal/neck cracking" then just tell your chiropractor you are interested in specific methods and not in their spinal adjustments. Just like we tell a medical doctor we are interested in trying bracing before surgery.

And again, what about the 100,000-200,000 deaths per year due to medical errors? The medical field is full of incompetence and a bad medical professional (surgeon, nurse, etc.) is probably just as likely, or maybe more likely, to negatively impact your child's health or life, than that of a chiropractor.

Michael

rohrer01
04-05-2010, 01:46 AM
My insurance covers chiropractic care but not massage therapy. As far as chiropractic bashing, everyone is entitiled to their opinions. However, there are many very scientific things that are discovered by what starts out to be folklore. Chiropractic, definitely seems to have its roots in what I think are some pretty shady beliefs, but it works for some people.

People used to "believe" in spontaneous generation, that flies were produced by rotting meat. That was considered FACT until someone actually covered the meat and saw that the flies were coming and laying eggs on the cloth covering the meat. Is this irrelevant? No. Things are believed and tried out to see if it holds true. It's the scientific method. The problem that many see with chiropractic is that no one seems to be able to "prove" that subluxations exist. We either don't have the technology or the smarts to prove it, or it really doesn't exist and some other force is at play here. We know that some chiropractors get good results for some things, like my sprained ankle mentioned earlier. What exactly was the mode of action that made it work? I don't know. It wasn't the placebo effect, because I didn't think she would do anything but make it worse. Something took place in there. On the flip side, my scoliosis got worse after a year and a half of treatments. What happened in there? No one knows.

I think this whole argument can be argued until people are blue in the face. The FACTS are that we don't know how chiropractic works because no one can figure out what happens when a joint pops. I do believe that there is some placebo effect for people who chronically go in with aches and pains, but hey, MD's play upon this phenomenon as well. Maybe some day someone will come up with a way to figure this all out. Until then, let us do what helps us. For me, sprained ankles, YES. Scoliosis, NO. Sorry, I just feel that this message thread has helped to enlighten me. Until I find out how it works, I think I'll hold off for now.

Michael - you had a good point with the MD's doing the same thing. We all just need to be balanced. A therapy that works for one person, may not work for another, be it medical or chiropractic or whatever.

I see there are some heated views here that have obviously been discussed before. Like I said before. I didn't mean to open a can of worms this BIG. :eek:

Pooka1
04-05-2010, 08:04 AM
The problem that many see with chiropractic is that no one seems to be able to "prove" that subluxations exist. We either don't have the technology or the smarts to prove it, or it really doesn't exist and some other force is at play here.

Chiropracters themselves prove subluxations don't exist... no two chiros can point to the same spot on a radiograph as to where the subluxation is located. Plus we have honest chiros like Homola who think the only hope for chiro is to abandon the subluxation myth. I agree... they look like idiots with the subluxation thing.


I see there are some heated views here that have obviously been discussed before. Like I said before. I didn't mean to open a can of worms this BIG. :eek:

I don't view this as a can of worms nor a particularly big one. Pseudoscience will always have its adherents. Science is the only way of knowing anything factual. Pseudoscience is a way of pretending to know "facts." When something is around at least 90 - 100 years and there is still no evidence of efficacy despite folks studying it, then it is very likely nonsense. Schroth for curve correction, bracing for holding curves, and chiro for anything except short-term muscular stuff are in this category.

A particular problem, chiros should be arrested for practicing medicine without a license when treating kids with scoliosis in my opinion.

Pooka1
04-05-2010, 08:12 AM
Forgot to address this...



I think this whole argument can be argued until people are blue in the face. The FACTS are that we don't know how chiropractic works because no one can figure out what happens when a joint pops. I do believe that there is some placebo effect for people who chronically go in with aches and pains, but hey, MD's play upon this phenomenon as well. Maybe some day someone will come up with a way to figure this all out. Until then, let us do what helps us. For me, sprained ankles, YES. Scoliosis, NO. Sorry, I just feel that this message thread has helped to enlighten me. Until I find out how it works, I think I'll hold off for now.

We know from science that the placebo effect is real. We also know from science that lithium is effective for manic depression.

In both these cases, there are real effects to measure and it is a fact that they work but also in both cases we don't know how they work. So we only know empirically that they work.

In contrast, for the great run of alternative treatments (chiro, Schroth, Clear, Pettibon, rain drop therapy, TAMAR, etc. etc. etc.), we not only don't know how they might work (nonsense claims aside) but we also have ZERO evidence that they are effective. And in some cases we can rigorously disprove the claimed mechanism like for homeopathy which is the poster child for pseudoscientific nonsense (pardon that redundancy) in my little opinion.

In the US, a large majority of people think they live in a demon-haunted world. That is fine for them but it becomes a liability when they are faced with a real medical problem where that type of thinking will completely fail them. There is a price to pay for not prizing facts.

dailystrength
04-05-2010, 08:52 AM
When it comes to physical therapy: Schroth, Pettibon, etc or exercises like Pilates, Yoga, etc. we are all still hoping that these will work, and willing to try them to avoid surgery. What is the risk of using these methods? Dr. Betz, Dr. Durrani, and other orthopedic surgeons do not see a risk in these methods. The do not feel they will help, but also do not feel they will hurt.

So, who performs Schroth and Pettibon? Who provides the SpineCor flexible brace (which was recommended by Children's Hospital pediatric orthopedic surgeon and supported by Dr. Betz and Dr. Durrani for my daughter to wear part-time)? Primarily physical therapists (for Schroth) and Chiropractors for Pettibon and SpineCor (and some chiropractors are now getting trained in Schroth). So, if you want to try one of these non-surgical methods, who are you supposed to see?

When my daughter sees a chiropractor he/she does not focus on spinal/neck adjustments. They don't "crack her neck". They use methods that have shown some positive results to decrease the curve. Does it work for everyone? No. Neither does bracing. Neither does surgery.

And let's not forget, we have orthopedic surgeons, like Dr. Betz and Dr. Durrani, putting nickel, titanium, stainless steel, etc. implants into our children and they are not sure of the long term affects. When Dr. Betz did stapling on children with curves over 35 degrees he was experimenting. He was "hoping" it would work, turns out it did not work for some. So these children had to have a growing rod (hybrid rod) installed and are now subject to surgeries every 6 months. This could be 10-15 surgeries for a child. Every surgery puts a child at risk.

Let's all keep an open mind that neither the medical doctors, physical therapists, or chiropractors have the solution. And, spinal fusion, unfortunately, in my mind, is the absolute last solution, but it is the only surgical method recommended by the Scoliosis Research Society (SRS). As we have discussed the SRS does not recommend vertebrae body stapling and it does not recommend the flexible brace. Does this mean they are not effective? Only time will tell. But I see chiropractors and orthopedic surgeons experimenting on our children.

Until our children are required to have surgery, like my daughter Syd, we are going to pursue non-surgical methods. And, the path to these non-surgical methods will lead us to physical therapists as well as chiropractors.

The emphasis should be on finding the "good one" who is practicing the non-surgical methods for scoliosis that each of us believe in. Let's not get wrapped up in who performs it. If you do not like the "spinal/neck cracking" then just tell your chiropractor you are interested in specific methods and not in their spinal adjustments. Just like we tell a medical doctor we are interested in trying bracing before surgery.

And again, what about the 100,000-200,000 deaths per year due to medical errors? The medical field is full of incompetence and a bad medical professional (surgeon, nurse, etc.) is probably just as likely, or maybe more likely, to negatively impact your child's health or life, than that of a chiropractor.

Michael

Michael, thanks for your balanced reply in the discussion. My Dr. (Chris Shaffrey at UVA) also will not do surgery on me. I could find someone who would, but he says I don't need it. I don't; I am functioning fine (49L main curve). Thanks for the reinforcement; I am sure I could find a Dr. who would. I trust Dr. Shaffrey - he is all over the web for his research.

About other chiro methods - what is the method yours does that is supposed to help scoliosis? I am so curious!

Lastly, I am waiting on my insurance to (hopefully) approve the Schroth Method at a clinic in MD. Jennifer Graham PT it is called. Not sure where you are. But there is a link to practitioners on the Katherina Schroth website. In the meantime, I got the book "3 Dimensional... on Schroth" by her daugher Krista Lenhard Schroth (sp?)- it is actually a manual for physical therapists. In the intro, from 2007, she says that no successful treatment has been found for scoliosis - neither surgery nor other (!). It is true, surgery may bring a sense of relief, but it's not a solution, either.

michael1960
04-05-2010, 08:59 AM
rohrer01

It is a good discussion and thank you for initiating it. My only purpose was to comment that we keep an open mind about surgical and non-surgical treatments. A good balance presenting both sides is what is most helpful to others reading this forum. Some readers, including myself, are always looking for ideas. I find these forums and the experience of people sometimes more valuable than what we may be hearing from a chiropractor or orthopedic surgeon. For example, I learned of VBS, Rigo-Cheneau Brace, Pettibon, Scoliscore, Schroth, and much more through these forums, not any orthopedic surgeon or chiropractor. And for each of these it is most helpful if I can hear the good and the bad, even if it is a bit heated.

For Syd, if we decide to have surgery, we need to decide on staples and a growing rod (hybrid rod) which has been around for a few years but still fairly new and she will need to have surgeries every 6 months or going with a brand new self-growing rod that is being implanted into a child for the first time. Even if a person chooses to go forward with surgeries there are different surgical techniques and instrumentation used. And usually, each surgeon feels strongly why their technique and instrumentation is best.

Working with our chiropractor, we had some results that showed some reduction in her curve from about 28 degrees to 23 degrees between T4-T12. But, the curve increased between T5-T10 (30 to 32 degrees).

And then 6 weeks later the T5-T10 measurement not only went back to the starting point, but also improved (closer to 26-28 degrees). One idea or theory is that the treatment/therapy loosened up the spine area making it more flexible. The treatment include exercises that straightened the spine from 30 degrees to 0 degrees. Part of this makes sense if our goal is to get the spine back to 0. I know that in a brace the orthopedic surgeon and orthotist want to get as much improvement (curve reduction) as possible. If a brace can take the spine from 30 degrees to 0 degrees, that would be great and may produce the greatest results. Some orthopedic surgeons and orthotists try for an overcorrection in the brace. But if a brace can only take a person to 15-20 degrees, the spine never gets a chance to get back to 0. However, through some physical therapy/exercises the spine can get back to 0 degrees even if it is temporary.

Following Syd's chiropractic treatment (which was a combination of multiple methods and little to no spinal/neck adjustments) she has been doing 1-2 hours of exercises per day.

Her improvement during a 6 week period following the treatment may be contributed to the brace she wears (SpineCor) or maybe the home exercises. But she has improved. She started at 36 last October and is now staying closer to 28-30 degrees. Our immediate goal is to hold the curve and hopefully get down to 25 degrees.

And at this time she is also wearing two braces. She wears a SpineCor brace to school and to play sports and she wears a Boston brace at home and at night. She is about 18 degrees in the SpineCor brace and 13 degrees in the Boston brace. Almost everyone I talked to regarding the wearing of two braces, orthopedic surgeons, chiropractors, and orthotists said that she cannot wear two braces, it will not work. At least two (one orthopedic surgeon and one chiropractor) have both been open to it. But from my perspective she is compliant (in a brace) about 22-23 hours per day, every day. She has no issues going to school or playing sports wearing a brace. Just because there are no studies on wearing two braces does not mean it may not be the best solution, at least the best solution for Syd.

In the end I will probably never know whether it is the chiropractic treatment (which is physical therapy not spinal/neck adjustments) or the bracing that helps her the most, but all that matters is that she improves. And, in the end, none of this may make a difference. Many of the orthopedic surgeons feel at this point that anything she does is only temporarily delaying surgery, but if we can delay surgery for a couple years and allow time for more proven surgical advancements (i.e. self growing rod) and allow her to grow, then that may be the best approach.

I am just trying to figure this out day by day and follow the advice of the orthopedic surgeons, chiropractors, and orthotists that I have grown to trust.

And trust is not just about them showing great interest in Syd, but also demonstrating competence in their field of expertise. I don't expect orthopedic surgeons to be aware of the latest and maybe most effective bracing or physical therapy just like I don't expect physical therapists and chiropractors to be aware of the latest surgical techniques.

The International Research Society of Spinal Deformities invites multiple disciplines to its organization in the search for the best "multi-disciplined" treatment for spinal deformities, including scoliosis. This includes physical therapy and exercise as well as other disciplines. So, the question for all of us, if we believe in a multi-disciplinary approach, which "professional" (pediatrician, pediatric orthopedic surgeon, orthotist, physical therapist, chiropractor, etc.) can provide it. For us, we have a pediatrician who is not very involved, 1-2 pediatric orthopedic surgeons who provide different surgical techniques, 1 chiropractor who provides physcial therapy and SpineCor brace adjustments, and 1 orthotist for the Boston brace (but we will be getting a 2nd opinion from another Boston brace orthotist).

Thanks again for initiating the conversation.

Michael

michael1960
04-05-2010, 09:29 AM
DailyStrength

Please let me know whether the last post answered your question.

The chiropractor we see is trained in multiple disciplines that are focused on scoliosis. These include Clear, Pettibon, and SpineCor.

Most of the therapy seems to be more Pettibon than anything else. He does not focus on the lateral movement of the spine only (to improve the cobb angle) but also works on the cervicle and lumbar curves to make sure they are correct.

For example, my daughter will lay about 20 minutes per day on a lumbar and cervicle roll. One under the lumbar part of her back and one under her neck. This is to work on the natural curves that should be in the back.

There is an interesting study regarding Force Lodosis. It showed that when a person lays on their back, their thoracic curve will improve (smaller cobb angle). But, if something is placed under the thoracic-lumbar area (not just lumbar area), the thoracic curve continues to improve even more.

My perspective, especially with an 8 yr. old daughter and a growing spine, anything we can do to straighten the spine is a good thing. And if can combine that with some exercise while the spine is straight, that is even better.

She does wear some different weights and other devices and balances herself on an air disc. When she is doing this her spine is almost straight. The chiropractor tried several different methods until he was able to get her spine from top to bottom almost straight. Then she exercises by balancing herself on an air disc that forces her to work the muscles around the spine. The theory is that she is strengthening the muscles around the spine while the spine has very little curve in it.

I feel that the muscles around the spine do play a role. For example, when i was at the chiropractor, two sisters, one year apart in age, both with scoliosis around 40-50 degrees. One is very athletic (plays college basketball and softball). Her spine will only straighten to about 30 degrees. She is very muscular from playing sports. The other one, who plays no sports, her spine will straighten to almost 0. Maybe, if a person could hold their spine in a 0 degree curve position, and at the same time develop the muscles around it, maybe it could help hold the curve. This is why I like the flexible brace. My daughter's spine is about 18 degrees (vs 30 degrees) when she is playing softball, basketball, and soccer. It would be great if it was at 0 degrees when she is playing these sports.

Like others have said here, the greatest challenge is finding someone you can trust and is competent in what they do. We have gone through multiple orthopedic surgeons and chiropractors to find the ones we are using today. I have also utilized these forums to find "professionals" that are highly recommend. Like Dr. Betz (and Shriners Hospital) in Philadelphia is always highly recommended.

In some cases I have followed a recommendation that has not worked out.

For me, anytime one of these professionals begins to discredit another treatment and tell me how their treatment is the only one that works, I walk away! I will only work with professionals that are open to a multi-disciplinary approach and who are open to providing their insights into other methods. In the end, I create a team of professionals that I believe can deliver the best surgical and non-surgical treatment.

For example, when my chiropractor suggested a traction chair to straighten the spine 30-60 minutes per day, and to work on derotation, I suggested a Rigo-Chenau brace that will do the same, straighten the spine and work on derotation, but my daughter could wear it 12 hours per day, instead of 30-60 minutes. He was opened to the idea, especially if the brace could correct to 0 degrees.

When one of the best orthotists for the Rigo-Cheneau brace said that only one brace should be worn, but later agreed with my approach, that there could be value in a flexible brace to allow the muscles to work more, especially during sports, he changed his mind and was willing to support it.

But others have said absolutely no, only my approach will work. These are the professionals that will never be part of our team.

Good luck

Michael

michael1960
04-05-2010, 09:45 AM
dailystrength

I forgot to mention that I also have the same Schroth book. I recommend it just from a pure education standpoint to understand the spine and the surrounding muscle structure. It is interesting to learn of the muscles that are attached to different parts of the spine, and in theory, if you could strengthen these muscles they could contract and pull on the spine, in the direction that would help to correct it.

It makes sense. When I hurt my knee playing basketball I went to the orthopedic surgeon (sports medicine) expecting that I would need surgery. It turns out that I had stretched some muscles on one side of the knee cap. So every time I stretched my leg, my knee cap slid slightly to the left and then popped into the socket. Very painful. He provided me with exercises to strengthen the stretched muscles. It took about 4-6 months but eventually the muscles became stronger and kept the knee cap in place.

I have been to the orthopedic surgeon for hip pain and shoulder pain (all from playing sports and getting older). I am always expecting surgery, but it is always stretching some muscles and strengthening other muscles. And surprisingly, it has always worked.

So, I have become a believer in strengthening and stretching muscles. But when I have raised this point with pediatric orthopedic surgeons specializing in scoliosis, most of them do not have a recommendation on strengthening and stretching of the muscles. It is primarily bracing and surgery, with many feeling that bracing does not work.

When I mentioned Rigo-Cheneau brace and Schroth Method to one of the leading pediatric orthopedic surgeons (who is part of our team) he had to look to his assistant who explained to him what they were. He had no idea. But that is ok. I just hope that when the time comes, he is the best surgeon he can be.

We have considered going to one of the Schroth centers (Schroth Rehab in Wisconsin) but it was not covered by our insurance. Instead we went to a chirporactor who had been trained in the Schroth method (also not covered by insurance). With my daughter being only 8 we just wanted some basic exercises that she could do. We learned around 5-6 exercises for her in a 4 hour visit.

Michael

rohrer01
04-06-2010, 02:39 PM
Michael,
To be very honest, I have not heard of most of the treatments that you talk about here. You are a VERY good father to educate youself so much on the different treatment options for your daughter.

I was diagnosed at 16 by a chiropractor. My mother took me to Phoenix Children's Hospital, which had a state-of-the-art multidiscplinary team for its day. It included Spine Specialists (Orthos), Neurosurgeons, Physical Therapists, and Nutritionists. She also took me to an Osteopath, who did the weirdest things to me trying to "get rich" by discovering a cure for scoliosis and then patenting it. Needless to say he didn't cure me.

Some of the "legitimate" things I felt they did were some of the things you mentioned they are doing with your daughter. Exercises, lumbar and cervical pillows. I also had 10# of cervical traction for 30 minutes twice a day. My curve did improve from 39* to 36*, but that could be subjective.

I guess, I started this whole topic, because I also saw chiropractors. It was the Chiropractors and Osteopaths who almost ALWAYS claimed to me that they could "cure" scoliosis. Yet, I had NEVER seen or heard of one case where there was ever any more than a "temporary" benefit at most and never a cure. I also never knew that Chiropractors did anything but crunch bones, since that has been my sole experience with them, until this last one that I found who also does massage before she crunches.

I find it fascinating that you have found so much information out there and actually found Chiropractors willing to treat without or with very little spinal manipulation.

The manipulation has OBVIOUSLY made mine worse as I now have a 46* curve upper and 28* lower, forming a double thoracic curve. My lower curve before treatment was so small that it was pretty insignificant. The 46* curve might not sound like a lot either, but it only covers a span of, I think, 4 vertebrae.

I also KNOW that something IS taking place when the spine is adjusted. I just wish we knew what. If it was doing nothing, I would not have had those terribly painful shock waves going down both of my arms during that one memorable adjustment.

Whether we are people educated in the sciences, or laymen, we should all be open-minded enough to look more deeply into things. I think that I am just not convinced one way or the other whether or not subluxations exist, not that it even matters at this point - sorry Pooka1 (but I also commend you for your views of not blindly taking your daughters for non-proven treatments out of desperation - some of them are just tortuous as I speak from experience). The simple fact is that you can't disprove something based on one or two tests and then have different Chiropractors try to identify the subluxation. Right now we have certain things available to us. One of the things mentioned was the radiograph. That test simply is not sensitive enough to even pick up many fractures. Perhaps more sensitive testing is needed. The problem with our most sensitive ways of looking at things such as electron microscopy and the such, is that we are dealing with LIVING people. MRI's are more sensitive than x-rays, CT scans are more sensitive than MRI's for some things, but create a HUGE amount of radiation exposure. I'm sure no one will ever find enough human subjects willing to expose themselves to that just to try to prove or disprove a theory, not to mention that the government would most likely not allow it.

So it boils back down to my basic question. Is Chiropractic treatment helpful or harmful in the treatment of scoliosis? I guess my final conclusion is that if ANYONE tells you that they can "cure" scoliosis, turn and RUN the other way as fast as possible. If a practitioner is willing to be part of a multidiscplinary team, then maybe there could be some benefit. I think they should keep their hands off of the spine as far as bone crunching is concerned, though. But that is from my own personal experience. I was not educated in all these other methods of bracing, etc. that it seems some good Chiropractors are employing. I have learned a lot here from you all, especially Pooka1 and Michael. For that, THANKS!;)

The following is taken directly from the Scoliosis Research Society website under Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis Treatment:

http://www.srs.org/patients/adolescent/idiopathic/treatment.php

"Alternative treatments to prevent curve progression or prevent further curve progression such as chiropractic medicine, physical therapy, yoga, etc. have not demonstrated any scientific value in the treatment of scoliosis. However, these and other methods can be utilized if they provide some physical benefit to the patient such as core strengthening, symptom relief, etc. These should not, however, be utilized to formally treat the curvature in hopes of improving the scoliosis."

So for me, that settles it. The alternative methods are for symptom relief only and not for any other long lasting purpose such as a cure.

Pooka1
04-06-2010, 02:55 PM
I was not educated in all these other methods of bracing, etc. that it seems some good Chiropractors are employing.

Just a point of fact... it is easy to misunderstand that it is mainly surgeons, NOT chiros, who prescribe bracing. That gets lost in the discussion when Spinecor is on the table because that brace is largely only (but not exclusively) available from chiros and NOT surgeons. The reason is surgeons are unpersuaded by the literature claiming efficacy. After hearing the testimonials about misread radiographs (there is yet another case of a gross misreading on another forum), I don't believe a single number coming out of Montreal. I suspect neither do the great run of surgeons which explains why most do not prescribe the brace.

I am very certain the inventors of Spinecor were completely blind-sided by surgeons not prescribing the brace and chiros stepping just in to make a buck in the ensuing vacuum. I have to wonder if some or even most of those chiros were anti-bracing before they saw the Spinecor gravy train (multiple replaceable parts, etc.).


The following is taken directly from the Scoliosis Research Society website under Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis Treatment:

http://www.srs.org/patients/adolescent/idiopathic/treatment.php

"Alternative treatments to prevent curve progression or prevent further curve progression such as chiropractic medicine, physical therapy, yoga, etc. have not demonstrated any scientific value in the treatment of scoliosis. However, these and other methods can be utilized if they provide some physical benefit to the patient such as core strengthening, symptom relief, etc. These should not, however, be utilized to formally treat the curvature in hopes of improving the scoliosis."

So for me, that settles it. The alternative methods are for symptom relief only and not for any other long lasting purpose such as a cure.

That settles it for anyone who prizes evidence and facts. Some folks struggle with the very idea that there are no proven effective conservative/alternative treatments. It's an understandable struggle but ultimately unnecessary for when the rubber hits the road.

Best of luck.

rohrer01
04-06-2010, 03:11 PM
Pooka1,
Thank you. I will be doing some research on the spincore brace. I have already been put through some very bizzarre and ineffective "therapies" and am tired of being the proverbial guinnea pig. I can't blame my mom. She felt guilty for not believing the pain I was in, so was desperate to try anything to fix me.

Best wishes to your daughters. :p

Pooka1
04-06-2010, 03:19 PM
Pooka1,
Thank you. I will be doing some research on the spincore brace. I have already been put through some very bizzarre and ineffective "therapies" and am tired of being the proverbial guinnea pig. I can't blame my mom. She felt guilty for not believing the pain I was in, so was desperate to try anything to fix me.

Best wishes to your daughters. :p

Thanks for the best wishes for my baby kids. :)

And actually Spinecor might be helpful to relieve pain in adults. There are believable testimonials about that. But it would mean wearing the brace the rest of your life which might be worse than surgery. And it seems potentially effective in some JIS cases though much more study is needed and it is unclear if it holds the curve through the growth spurts. The problem is that it was designed for the AIS crowd and that's the crowd that surgeons don't seem to want to use it on.

Anyway, you know the score so you will make the right decisions.

rohrer01
04-06-2010, 03:21 PM
If you go to the spinecor website. Their testimonials don't show very much improvement in cobb angles at all!

http://www.scoliosisspecialists.com/

They do testify to a reduction in pain, but now I'm kind of skeptical. I would have to try it to believe it. I'm all about pain reduction, but with that little of an improvement in cobb angle it makes me wonder how it works. I am wondering if you can get one through a regular doctor or a chiropractor or both? I'll ask when I go see the neurosurgeon on Thursday. Thanks again everyone!

michael1960
04-06-2010, 03:41 PM
rohrer01

Very well said.

Just as an FYI regarding the SRS. The SRS recommends bracing until 45 degrees and then spinal fusion. You will find that many leading pediatric orthopedic surgeons do not follow these SRS guidelines. For example, many pediatric orthopedic surgeons are moving forward with vertebral body stapling (VBS) even though it is not recommended by the SRS. The NSF and SRS, for the most part, do not mention it and do not even provide any links to sites providing more detail on VBS. I would also put SpineCor in this same category. Both of these methods have been around 7-10+ years but are not yet accepted by NSF and SRS and by many insurance companies.

So, if we believe in VBS (that has worked for many and has shown some excellent results) and/or a flexible brace (that has worked well for us and many others and was highly recommended by multiple Children's Hospital pediatric orthopedic surgeons and it was invented by orthopedic surgeons) then one may want to conclude that the SRS recommendations are a little bit "old school".

It is hard to believe that they recommend bracing only until 45 degrees and then spinal fusion. VBS is performed on curves below 35 degrees and VBS with a hybrid rod is performed on curves below 45 degrees. Dr. Betz and his team at Shriners Hospital have been doing it for about 7 years.

I will have to check again to see if the SRS recommends genetic testing (scoliscore) for predicting curve progression, another leading edge tool.

My point is that it should not be a surprise to us that the SRS are not recommending non-surgical more conservative treatments. They are not even recommending the latest medical advancements to treat scoliosis.

I have created a website scoliosis101.com to capture all the articles, videos, and studies that I have found on the internet. I am trying to create a structure to make it easy to find scoliosis related information. I have a lot of work to do with it but it provides me with a way to organize all the information that I find. I think it may be a good start, but it has a long ways to go.

And regarding chiropractic care for treating scoliosis (curve reduction), I think you are right about needing to be very careful and stay away from those saying they can cure it. I like your idea of making them part of a multi-disciplinary team. Even some scoliosis organizations have moved to a more multi-disciplinary approach feeling that it takes multiple disciplines to manage scoliosis.

I am having discussions with my chiropractor on whether there is value in making the spine more flexible to improve in-brace correction. A brace pushes against the ribs and then the spine. But that spine can be a bit rigid, but what happens if it is made more flexible through some therapy. And some support that the greater the in-brace correction the potential for greater out of brace curve reduction.

Our own personal results working with a chiropractor showed curve reduction in the T4-T12 measurements but curve progression in the T5-T10 area. So, good for the T4-T12 measurements but bad for the T5-T10 measurements. Then, 6 weeks later after bracing (with a much better in-brace correction) the T4-T12 improvement remained but the T5-T10 measurement not only returned back to normal but improved. Was it the more flexible spine that allowed for greater in-brace correction and therefore the greater out of brace correction?

The risk is that the more flexible spine results in a greater curve, but then is not corrected by the brace. Anyway, this is my latest "theory" regarding chiropractic care. Again, nothing to do with "back/neck crunching". Many chiropractors have moved on to focus on physical therapy, flexible bracing, and other techniques.

With all of this said our primary non-surgical treatment is still bracing 22-23 hours per day (SpineCor and Boston braces). Everything else (chiropractic, schroth, pettibon, etc.) are all secondary treatments.

I have very much enjoyed this topic and discussion.

Thanks again for initiating it.

Michael

mamamax
04-06-2010, 08:32 PM
Just a point of fact... it is easy to misunderstand that it is mainly surgeons, NOT chiros, who prescribe bracing. That gets lost in the discussion when Spinecor is on the table because that brace is largely only (but not exclusively) available from chiros and NOT surgeons. The reason is surgeons are unpersuaded by the literature claiming efficacy. After hearing the testimonials about misread radiographs (there is yet another case of a gross misreading on another forum), I don't believe a single number coming out of Montreal. I suspect neither do the great run of surgeons which explains why most do not prescribe the brace.

I am very certain the inventors of Spinecor were completely blind-sided by surgeons not prescribing the brace and chiros stepping just in to make a buck in the ensuing vacuum. I have to wonder if some or even most of those chiros were anti-bracing before they saw the Spinecor gravy train (multiple replaceable parts, etc.).



That settles it for anyone who prizes evidence and facts. Some folks struggle with the very idea that there are no proven effective conservative/alternative treatments. It's an understandable struggle but ultimately unnecessary for when the rubber hits the road.

Best of luck.

Then again .. I'm an adult who has been bracing with Spinecor since April of last year.

When I began, I was in the "needs surgery" category. Such is no longer the case.

Regardless of what some who do not have first hand experience and/or training with this brace may *think* ... I am very thankful that it was available for me. And I personally know others who say the same.

Pooka1
04-06-2010, 08:40 PM
[COLOR="Navy"]Then again .. I'm an adult who has been bracing with Spinecor since April of last year.

When I began, I was in the "needs surgery" category. Such is no longer the case.

This is why I said that there are believable testimonials about pain relief in adults with Spinecor. This will become the major market for the brace in my opinion for folks willing to wear it the rest of their life.

mamamax
04-06-2010, 08:57 PM
This is why I said that there are believable testimonials about pain relief in adults with Spinecor. This will become the major market for the brace in my opinion for folks willing to wear it the rest of their life.

The rest of their life??? That is your opinion Sharon - not a fact.

Pooka1
04-06-2010, 09:02 PM
The rest of their life??? That is your opinion Sharon - not a fact.

Yes that's my opinion and it is based on the identical amount of evidence that Rivard/Coillard have on the matter.

rohrer01
04-06-2010, 11:00 PM
Mamamax,
Have you gotten any curve correction with your brace? Is it comfortable and relieve pain? Did you get it from a Chiropractor or an MD? Just wondering about your treatment program. Do you know how long they expect you to wear it? Do they have you do Physical Therapy with it? These are all questions I will be asking about on Thursday. Sorry to put you on the spot.

rohrer01
04-06-2010, 11:10 PM
Oops.
Mamamax,
They don't want us talking about Spinecor except on another thread as per the moderator Linda Racine. You can private message me.
Thanks!
:cool:

LindaRacine
04-06-2010, 11:19 PM
Oops.
Mamamax,
They don't want us talking about Spinecor except on another thread as per the moderator Linda Racine. You can private message me.
Thanks!
:cool:

I did?

--Linda

rohrer01
04-06-2010, 11:36 PM
I thought you only wanted official published information on this brace as there was apparently some heated debate going on at the time. Anyway, I read mamamax's story on the other thread. Sorry if I misunderstood. :o

mamamax
04-07-2010, 05:12 AM
Yes that's my opinion and it is based on the identical amount of evidence that Rivard/Coillard have on the matter.

Please share a reference I can read (other than your opinion)?

mamamax
04-07-2010, 05:32 AM
Mamamax,
Have you gotten any curve correction with your brace? Is it comfortable and relieve pain? Did you get it from a Chiropractor or an MD? Just wondering about your treatment program. Do you know how long they expect you to wear it? Do they have you do Physical Therapy with it? These are all questions I will be asking about on Thursday. Sorry to put you on the spot.

Yes I have. And yes, it is comfortable considering the pain that it relieves and I have been compliant since April of last year. I receive my treatment from a chiropractor who specializes in scoliosis and who has trained with MDs (the inventors, one of whom is an SRS surgeon) my provider is also Schroth certified through the German clinic. Vital to find someone who is both certified by the manufacture and experienced (in my opinion). I do little exercise. As for how long I will have to wear the brace - that is yet to be determined, standard protocol is two years. I keep in touch with Sharon Dunn (Amazing Brace). Her son began treatment as a young adult .. he is not wearing the brace for the rest of his life. Hope this helps - and best of luck to you on Thursday!

Pooka1
04-07-2010, 05:48 AM
Please share a reference I can read (other than your opinion)?

If Rivard/Colliard have no reference then why do I need one? I have common sense in my side. Why should two years of brace wear in an adult stop progression once the brace is off? There is no known or proposed mechanism for that. The fact that you had pain relief in brace when you first got it is proof the brace is holding your curve up. And as with all braces, it is restricting movement and taking over what your muscles used to do. So when you come out of it, your muscles will be less able to support your spine, incredible claims from the inventors about how the brace is actually not a brace aside.

You understand that the inventors admit Spinecor for adults has different objectives than in children. They do not claim the brace will permanently alter the natural history of scoliosis in adults. They claim it might help with pain. They chose a two-year protocol as the first experimental design. These researchers are neither clairvoyant nor magical. That number is pulled out of a hat... there is not a single piece of credible evidence pointing to two years being appropriate as opposed to one or three or 25 for the objectives in adult treatment (or kids for that matter but let's not get into that). Not a single piece.

You say you are in touch with that guy in Canada and I do believe his story of pain relief with the brace. For folks not familiar, he is a young adult who is subsurgical IIRC and wears the brace for pain relief. You say he isn't wearing it forever. How long did he wear it initially and has he ever gone back to wearing after stopping? Are you saying he wore it for some time and now he is completely pain free without the brace for any length of time? If so the world needs to know about that.

mamamax
04-07-2010, 06:02 AM
Sharon - I suggest you pick up the phone and have a conversation with Rivard and/or Colliard. Sharon Dunn's email address is all over the Internet - you could also write her. Adult bracing (in general) is not something we have many studies on ... it is a rather new concept (though if you research Scoliosis Journal my providers do have an adult study there). All we have really at this point, are "reports" from those like myself who are engaged in it. I'm not interested in becoming an authority on the subject - I'm interested in a treatment that will keep me out of the "needs surgery" category. If you really want to become more of an authority on the subject I suggest some conversation with others who are more qualified to provide you with the information you seek - that would be far more productive than a "debate" between you and I - though probably not nearly as entertaining ;-)

Pooka1
04-07-2010, 06:09 AM
If you really want to become more of an authority on the subject I suggest some conversation with others who are more qualified to provide you with the information you seek - that would be far more productive than a "debate" between you and I - though probably not nearly as entertaining ;-)

You know as much about adult bracing as Rivard and Colliard do. You are as expert as they are at this point.

Your pain relief has taken you off the surgery table and that is great. Spinecor seems very valuable for that in adults if the progression doesn't get to a point where surgery is required for health reasons.

If you ask them, they will admit they pulled the two years out of a hat or got it from a random number generator or had a guy at a carnival guess it. It very obviously has no foothold in reality or evidence.

mamamax
04-07-2010, 06:17 AM
Y
If you ask them, they will admit they pulled the two years out of a hat or got it from a random number generator or had a guy at a carnival guess it. It very obviously has no foothold in reality or evidence.

Really? And from where does this information come? Is this another opinion - or is it fact? References (if fact) please :-)

Pooka1
04-07-2010, 06:21 AM
Really?

Yes really. They are BEGINNING the research on adults. How would they have any evidence in hand?

THINK. Just think. Please.

Pooka1
04-07-2010, 06:28 AM
And from where does this information come?

Simple observation.

michael1960
04-07-2010, 08:13 AM
mamamax

I wish the rules of this forum were: please post only if you have personal experience with the treatment, know something about the treatment, or have some value to add. Then we could get rid of all the unbiased and what I consider unhelpful opinions.

Regarding SpineCor helping an adult, your post is great and I hope many people find it and reach out to you. And it looks like someone did yesterday. That is great. That is the purpose of a forum. People PM me all the time because they don't want to get into a conversation, share their experience, only to have someone on the forum provide negative comments to what they said. It discourages people from participating in the forum.

Regarding SpineCor for JIS, we have been very pleased with it. It clearly works. However, for older AIS children going through a growth spurt I don't know. I have my concerns.

So, let's all conclude without comments about Rivard and Coillard, the SpineCor brace has been effective to help some adults manage pain. And, let's all conclude that it has been effective to help JIS children not only stabilize the curve, but reduce the curve.

When my daughter was 7 and first diagnosed with scoliosis (23 degrees) and all the orthopedic surgeons were telling us to do nothing, I wish we would had started bracing with the SpineCor brace. Then my daughter increased to 36 and we are fighting to get it back down. She has been in the SpineCor for about 5 months and her 36 degree curve T5-T12 is now 23. Her largest curve is now T5-T9 and is 28 degrees. We are moving in the right direction. And my daughter has no problem wearing it all the time, and it has no impact on her activities, especially playing sports.

I would like to hear others share their stories here and experience with SpineCor without having others, who have no experience with it, and have serve no other value than to criticize the inventors and chiropractors who are providers of it. Our chiropractor has done a great job fitting the brace and helping my daughter reduce her curve.

So, to be clear, pediatric orthopedic surgeons from Childrens Hospital recommended the SpineCor brace, the initial fitting was with an orthotist at Children's Hospital, and the latest adjustments have all been done by our chiropractor. And we are very pleased. I have considered going to Montreal to meet with Rivard and/or Coillard to confirm we are getting maximum correction out of the brace.

Think about how many kids could be in a SpineCor brace who may have a 15-20 or 20-25 degree curve (23 degrees in our case) that could prevent the scoliosis curve from progressing and could lead a very normal active life while bracing. And since surgeons may not recommend bracing at this level, a SpineCor orthotist or SpineCor chiropractor may be the only place to get the brace.

Thanks
Michael

mamamax
04-07-2010, 06:00 PM
mamamax

I wish the rules of this forum were: please post only if you have personal experience with the treatment, know something about the treatment, or have some value to add. Then we could get rid of all the unbiased and what I consider unhelpful opinions.

Yes, I agree completely. Your suggestions would go a very long way in providing useful information to those seeking answers and be very helpful in making treatment decisions.


Regarding SpineCor helping an adult, your post is great and I hope many people find it and reach out to you. And it looks like someone did yesterday. That is great. That is the purpose of a forum. People PM me all the time because they don't want to get into a conversation, share their experience, only to have someone on the forum provide negative comments to what they said. It discourages people from participating in the forum.
Thank you - my experience has been amazing and one of the reasons I remain here, amid the sometimes overwhelming conflict, is to be here for anyone else who may benefit as well.

Regarding SpineCor for JIS, we have been very pleased with it. It clearly works. However, for older AIS children going through a growth spurt I don't know. I have my concerns.
I am so pleased to hear that this bracing is working so well for your daughter. Literally makes my heart smile. As for the growth spurt, I think many worry about that point in time. Another reason I stay here is to read all I can find about that. Given the heredity factor, I could easily one day be the grandmother of someone in a similar situation .. the more information I can gather (and stay on top of) the better. Because the condition is literally so unique to each - sometimes Spinecor may hold during a growth spurt, and other times it may not. There is no predicting unfortunately. Sometimes treatment choices may have to change no matter what we do.


So, let's all conclude without comments about Rivard and Coillard, the SpineCor brace has been effective to help some adults manage pain. And, let's all conclude that it has been effective to help JIS children not only stabilize the curve, but reduce the curve.
Excellent comments. We can also conclude that there are times when Spinecor can reduce the adult curvature. I do feel blessed to live during a time when it is becoming recognized, through the work of Dr. Martha Hawes, that the adult spine can indeed be rehabilitated beyond previously known/acknowledged conceptions.

When my daughter was 7 and first diagnosed with scoliosis (23 degrees) and all the orthopedic surgeons were telling us to do nothing, I wish we would had started bracing with the SpineCor brace. Then my daughter increased to 36 and we are fighting to get it back down. She has been in the SpineCor for about 5 months and her 36 degree curve T5-T12 is now 23. Her largest curve is now T5-T9 and is 28 degrees. We are moving in the right direction. And my daughter has no problem wearing it all the time, and it has no impact on her activities, especially playing sports.
That is an amazing correction! Obviously some natural history has been altered :-) I know you are hoping this will continue to hold through the growth spurt. Should for any reason you need a plan B ... the work of a German brace maker is proving quite promising with the Chaneau. I trust you are already investigating this?

I would like to hear others share their stories here and experience with SpineCor without having others, who have no experience with it, and have serve no other value than to criticize the inventors and chiropractors who are providers of it. Our chiropractor has done a great job fitting the brace and helping my daughter reduce her curve.
I don't know why some who have no first hand experience with this brace and its design are so passionate about bashing it (year after year). When someone speaks like they are an authority on a subject, when they are not, this does a great disservice to us all. I would like to hear from others also - but chances are we will not ... for when they do speak up, they are often shouted down. Who wants that as part of their treatment program?

So, to be clear, pediatric orthopedic surgeons from Childrens Hospital recommended the SpineCor brace, the initial fitting was with an orthotist at Children's Hospital, and the latest adjustments have all been done by our chiropractor. And we are very pleased. I have considered going to Montreal to meet with Rivard and/or Coillard to confirm we are getting maximum correction out of the brace.

Think about how many kids could be in a SpineCor brace who may have a 15-20 or 20-25 degree curve (23 degrees in our case) that could prevent the scoliosis curve from progressing and could lead a very normal active life while bracing. And since surgeons may not recommend bracing at this level, a SpineCor orthotist or SpineCor chiropractor may be the only place to get the brace.

Thanks
Michael

Few surgeons have taken the time to learn about Spinecor. To be honest, a lot goes into this bracing method, it is not an off the shelf treatment and it requires a lot of attention to detail and follow up (if one wants to duplicate the results of Rivard and Colliard). I am deeply grateful for the handful of chiropractors who have dedicated their lives to the use of this brace, trained with the inventors, compiled presentations for SOSORT, published studies in Scoliosis Journal - and also for those who have made the personal sacrifice to travel to many locations throughout the US in order to reach people like me, who otherwise would not have benefited from this treatment. Spinecor is a viable treatment option that should not be shouted down - or left out of the BrAist study.

Thank you so much for your comments. They have been very uplifting and like a breath of fresh air :-) Wishing you and your daughter all the very best in your journey.

dailystrength
04-07-2010, 07:17 PM
Thanks, Michael, for your comments on things that people put out there. We have enough to deal with without having to feel we will be put in a defensive position for doing what we think is best. This is not a war between surgical and non-surgical; we are all searching for answers. For those of us willing to step out and try a newer method for the sake of all of us, I think that is very commendable. So, thank you for your support and wisdom. I think it is fine to give alternative concerns and thoughts, but not to the point of challenging someone's choice, which they are struggling with also. We all are struggling. Life is a daily job to remain optimistic for many of us.

Thanks also for your reply to the other thread- not sure where that is now, but I really appreciated it and so did my mother, my best supporter.

--Christina

mamamax
04-07-2010, 07:45 PM
The fact that you had pain relief in brace when you first got it is proof the brace is holding your curve up. And as with all braces, it is restricting movement and taking over what your muscles used to do. So when you come out of it, your muscles will be less able to support your spine, incredible claims from the inventors about how the brace is actually not a brace aside.


I kind of missed this statement in the course of conversation and feel the need to clarify the facts.

Yes I had immediate pain reduction - which continues to this day (even when out of brace)

The design of this brace does not restrict movement and take over what my muscles used to do - nor when I come out of brace are my muscles less able to support my spine. Quite the opposite.

There once was a large indentation along my spine on the concave side, due to weak muscle structure, prior to bracing. This area has filled in, and the muscles are vastly stronger - the rib hump on the left is very much reduced. I've had a few occasions (recently) to be out of brace for an entire weekend, free of pain - and stronger than I ever was before I began bracing.

Please don't tell people that the Spinecor brace results in atrophied muscles ... that simply is not true. All braces are not alike and Spinecor is vastly different from rigid bracing.

Pooka1
04-07-2010, 08:32 PM
Vincent Bugliosi repeated an old saying in his book "Outrage" on how Simpson could not possibly be innocent given the established facts. The saying was about how some people simply don't want facts and was something like:

"A person who speaks the truth is driven out of nine villages."

I love that.

dailystrength
04-07-2010, 08:35 PM
There once was a large indentation along my spine on the concave side, due to weak muscle structure, prior to bracing. This area has filled in, and the muscles are vastly stronger - the rib hump on the left is very much reduced. I've had a few occasions (recently) to be out of brace for an entire weekend, free of pain - and stronger than I ever was before I began bracing.

Wow, that is great!!! The PT place I am going to also deals with Spinecor braces. Thanks for the update. Do they also give you exercises to do while you are out of it, or after you are through wearing it?

mamamax
04-07-2010, 08:56 PM
Thanks! It is pretty amazing :-) Where exactly are you going, sounds like a great place!

Yes, I was given a few Schroth exercises to work with - I've not been very compliant with that .. when the future permits, I'll look into an intensive workshop somewhere. In the mean time, the book you recommended is proving valuable (thanks so much). And I'm now walking more in brace (in the MBTs of course). I was told I could to Schroth out of brace. Interestingly enough , Sharon Dunn's son did no exercise whatsoever, and has maintained his correction post treatment.

Edit: The above anecdotal note concerning Sharon Dunn's son - was offered from memory of my correspondence with her.

Pooka1
04-07-2010, 09:01 PM
Interestingly enough, Sharon Dunn's son did no exercise whatsoever, and has maintained his correction post treatment.

What was his pre-brace Cobb and what was his post-brace Cobb and how long was he out of brace when the post-brace radiograph was taken?

Did he ever go back into the brace after stopping?

rohrer01
04-07-2010, 09:12 PM
This information is very interesting AND informative. I don't live near any certified Spinecor people. But I will ask about it. Like I think I mentioned before, my curve is high and tight, so I'm not holding my breath that this design would be able to help me personally, but is still worth looking into. I'm not in the "surgical" category until I hit 50* and am at 46*. This puts me in the surgical category only if I am having problems like pain, pinched nerves, etc. which I am. I would LOVE to have a non-surgical pain management program. Right now, at my age, and still having an inkling of hope of one more baby, I'm not sure if surgery would be best, just to get it over with. I am scared of a surgery of this magnitude at my age, but even more so in my 50's or 60's, even though I see many on here having it done at those ages. I'm just wondering now if there is some way to take advantage of the "damage" my chiropractor has done and turn it into a positive thing. Thanks again for all your replies, experiences and help. You are a great crowd to talk to.

mamamax
04-07-2010, 09:19 PM
Rohrer01 ... sent you a PM ;-)

mamamax
04-07-2010, 09:20 PM
Sharon - I really do not wish to get into a great debate with you.

Here's the original article: http://www.macleans.ca/science/health/article.jsp?content=20080123_55198_55198

Sharon Dunn's email address is available on the Internet - you can write her and ask these questions. She's a really nice lady - be gentle?

michael1960
04-07-2010, 11:40 PM
dailystrength and mamamax (and others)

Thanks for your support. This forum is so valuable.

While many orthopedic surgeons and scoliosis organizations do not support the SpineCor brace they also do not show much support for the Rigo-Cheneau (RC) brace.

I have heard many say that if the SpineCor brace or RC brace worked, then the orthopedic surgeons would be recommending them. We can all speculate why they do not recommend them, but unfortunately they just don't. However, just because the SRS or the orthopedic surgeons do not recommend a treatment, we should NEVER assume it is because it does not work.

For example, do the orthopedic surgeons recommend the Boston brace (instead of SpineCor or RC braces) because it is much more common (been around for a long time), because it is easier to make, because insurance covers it, because there are hundreds or thousands of orthotists that can make it, because there are more studies on it than other braces, because they don't want to take a risk of recommending a new brace and getting sued, because it is most effective, etc. Who knows? None of us know. All we can conclude is that most orthopedic surgeons seem to recommend what they know best, but it may not be what is currently the best. I look to the orthopedic surgeon for the best surgical techniques and their analysis of the spine for any underlying conditions that may be causing scoliosis, pain, etc.. But I do not look to them for the best bracing or for the best physical therapy. Personally, I would like the orthopedic surgeon to focus his or her time and resources on finding or validating new surgical techniques that keep us from spinal fusion (i.e. VBS) instead of new bracing and/or new physical therapy techniques.

Here is why this forum is so valuable: REAL EXPERIENCES FROM REAL PEOPLE. Forget the studies. Forget the SRS. Listen to what has worked and not worked for people. Over time you will see some common repeated threads or messages from different people. (Don't completely forget studies and SRS, but do not base final decision completely on them.). In the end, I want to hear from people who have experience, much more experience than me. I want their guidance. I have worked with 4 orthopedic surgeons and 3 chiropractors and 2 orthotists. But now I work primarily with one orthopedic surgeon, one chiropractor, and one orthotist. This is our team to manage Syd's scoliosis. But I would add to that team 5-10 people I have met through these forums who I wholeheartedly trust and respect.

While I have incredible respect for orthopedic surgeons, chiropractors and other professionals, all of them are still trying to figure out the best treatment for scoliosis. I have reached the point, with confidence, along with many others, that we have to manage our own scoliosis or that of our children, and we need to do it in a holistic manner working with many different professionals as we feel is required.

Michael

LindaRacine
04-07-2010, 11:52 PM
Here is why this forum is so valuable: REAL EXPERIENCES FROM REAL PEOPLE. Forget the studies. Forget the SRS. Listen to what has worked and not worked for people. Over time you will see some common repeated threads or messages from different people. (Don't completely forget studies and SRS, but do not base final decision completely on them.). In the end, I want to hear from people who have experience, much more experience than me. I want their guidance. I have worked with 4 orthopedic surgeons and 3 chiropractors and 2 orthotists. But now I work primarily with one orthopedic surgeon, one chiropractor, and one orthotist. This is our team to manage Syd's scoliosis. But I would add to that team 5-10 people I have met through these forums who I wholeheartedly trust and respect.

For example, today, I have learned of an 8 yr. old (my daughter is also 8 with curve last year at 36) whose curve was 34 deg and in the RC brace her in-brace measurement was 3 deg. That is an incredible in-brace reduction. We are only 13 deg in the Boston brace. And after 15 months she is now 11 deg out of brace and will be going to part-time bracing. I don't care what the SRS recommends or what the different professionals recommend, the RC brace seems to work. She also shared with me another child who was in the 40s and is now in the 20s after only 5 months in the RC brace. There are many others making these claims with the RC brace, and not so much with the other more standard braces.
Not sure why one would trust the anecdotal evidence of a few people over a peer-reviewed study with a cohort of 10X or 100X that number. Had this forum been around 10 years ago, you would have definitely gotten sucked in by the Copes brace. There were dozens of people posting about their great results. The problem was, not one of those people had finished treatment. Copes sold hundreds of those braces, and I've never heard of a single one that was successful in the long term.

--Linda

michael1960
04-08-2010, 12:25 AM
Linda

You raise a very good point. I have read studies, studies, and more studies. And like I said in the post, they should be considered, but should not drive a final decision.

Some studies (and some orthopedic surgeons) would tell us that bracing does not change the natural progression of any curve. Other studies would suggest that a brace can only stabilize a curve, not reduce a curve. Other studies exclude some of the latest bracing like SpineCor and Rigo-Cheneau braces.

Also, with bracing, and all the studies, some of the conclusions are not final because some did not factor in compliance, and we know compliance is a critical component. Others did not factor the degree of in-brace correction.

So, I can read and read and read these studies, and for every study that supports treatment A, I can usually find another one that supports treatment B over A.

Often these studies are not relevant. Many of the bracing studies are for AIS. I have a JIS. Other people discussing on this forum are adults, very few bracing studies for adults.

Some studies may be biased, especially when performed by the group who is promoting a new treatment or product.

Being an engineering type person, I started this journey reading about every relevant study I could find. My plan was to make all decisions based on studies. And in the end, I have found more valuable real life experiences from people who are almost identical to my child. For example, I very much value hearing from moms (and sometimes there are a few dads) who have a daughter, 8 yrs. old, with a 30+ curve. I value their experience with bracing (not only whether the bracing worked but how the 8 yr. girl handled it, not only physically but emotionally wearing it to school, being with her friends, etc.).

When I see 2, 3, 4, 5+ stories all regarding the RC brace and success with 7 and 8 yr. olds, I listen wholeheartedly.

Again, you raise a very good point. That is why I said to look at the studies. But definitely do not make a final treatment decisions on studies alone. You have to find a study that is relevant: 8 yr old (JIS), 30+ degree thoracic curve, 15 deg rotation, all braces included (if looking at a bracing study), etc. Good luck finding that study. It took me some time to realize that most of the studies were not relevant to my 8 yr. old, most were for AIS. And I have learned that an 8 yr. old reacts much different to treatment than a 13-14 yr. old.

That is my reason. It may or may not be a good reason, but none the less, that is what I was thinking when I made that comment.

Thank you for raising the point. I would sure not want anyone to think they should ignore studies. A relevant study can be valuable. The trouble is finding one.

And excellent point about COPES. I agree with you. Not sure I would have been sucked in, but it is possible. Not sure it is any different in all of us heading down the path of VBS. We see short term results (3-5 yrs), but we do not know the long term effects of having staples left in the spine or the impact on the vertebrae growth plates. I have yet to find a no-risk path. I guess it is all about trying to manage our risk.

Michael

michael1960
04-08-2010, 12:49 AM
Linda

One last point. If we do not take a risk with some of these new surgical and non-surgical techniques, and only follow the advice of the SRS and many orthopedic surgeons, and studies, we are left with the following common approach:

1. Wait and Watch It until 25 degrees

2. Brace it with one of the common braces (like Boston brace)

3. And when it reaches 45 deg perform spinal fusion (or growing rods then spinal fusion)

That is not much of a plan. That plan has a high probability of ending up with spinal fusion. For me and many others, spinal fusion (or growing rods then spinal fusion) is the absolute last resort.

If we do not want to take this path, then we have to take some risks. In most cases I have found the risks to be financial risks more so then health risks. I know there are some exceptions to this statement.

But none of these other treatments will probably ever have the health risk comparable to that of going to someone in the medical profession (100K-200K deaths per year due to medical errors).

What was the risk to the people who tried COPES? Was it a health risk or a financial risk? I assume a financial risk.

I have taken the financial risk with several treatments. The only issue I have when I take one of these risks and it does not work (other than the financial loss) is the amount of time I lost.

For example, the past 5 months I have spent a lot of money on several different treatments, some are working, some are not. And, I wished I would have gone to the RC brace much sooner vs the SpineCor and Boston brace we are using right now. I feel I have lost 5 months of time. Actually I feel I have lost 12-18 months of time because we should had been in a brace over a year ago. But, no point in looking back, must look forward and do what we can right now.

So, to summarize, I think some of the latest treatments are a risk (probably more financial risk than health risk), but some of these latest treatments may also be the most effective.

It is about balancing the risk of a new treatment with that of an old treatment that may lead to spinal fusion. Right now many of us are willing to take a chance with a new treatment that has worked for others and see if we can keep our child from having any surgery (our #1 goal).

Michael

Pooka1
04-08-2010, 06:02 AM
Sharon - I really do not wish to get into a great debate with you.

Here's the original article: http://www.macleans.ca/science/health/article.jsp?content=20080123_55198_55198

Sharon Dunn's email address is available on the Internet - you can write her and ask these questions. She's a really nice lady - be gentle?

We have discussed that article before. Sharon Dunn is a very confused woman and that article contains many fallacious statements. The blind leading the blind leading the naked.

But we do have this admission from the inventors that the use of the brace in adults is only pain relief, not curve reduction:


The brace has been used on adults for only about two years, the goal being pain relief not straightening since the spine is mature. "No one thought it would help adults," said Collaird. Still, Rivard admits that the brace doesn't work for everyone.

Mamamax you mention curve reduction but the only reason you are not gigged on this by the moderator is that you leave out the word, "permanent." That saves your post. If you included that the post would be removed.

The patient is 22.
The pre-brace Cobb was <40*.
He was wearing the brace 9 months at the time of the article writing.
The article was written in January 2008.

There is no mention of stopping the brace and no mention of a reduction in Cobb angle. So Mamamax must have gotten that personally from the Dunns.

So my questions to Mamamax given her claims in this thread about this guy:

1. What did they tell you about how long he wore the brace?
2. What was the post brace Cobb angle?
3. How long was he out of brace when the post brace angle was shot?
4. Has he ever gone back into the brace for pain?
5. Are the Cobb angles coming out of Montreal?

If you can't answer these questions, can you please edit your posts above so they aren't completely misleading or worse? Thanks.

Pooka1
04-08-2010, 06:27 AM
Not sure why one would trust the anecdotal evidence of a few people over a peer-reviewed study with a cohort of 10X or 100X that number. Had this forum been around 10 years ago, you would have definitely gotten sucked in by the Copes brace. There were dozens of people posting about their great results. The problem was, not one of those people had finished treatment. Copes sold hundreds of those braces, and I've never heard of a single one that was successful in the long term.

--Linda

If anecdotal evidence was worthwhile then we would have to accept all manner of pseudoscience including:

1. UFOs
2. faith healing
3. homeopathy
4. tarot cards
5. efficacy of prayer
6. astrology
7. etc.

Unfortunately most people don't have a lick of training necessary to weed out fact from fantasy. But if they were raised with a sense of skepticism and even just thinking and reasoning in a rational manner they would be taken in far less than they are.

michael1960
04-08-2010, 08:29 AM
mamamax

Please don't waste your time responding to anyone who does not like the Sharon Dun article. It would be waste of time. Continue to share with us information like you have done so far. It is extremely helpful. I do not see any need to edit your posts.

Those challenging you and the article are once again adding no value to the conversation. With that said, let me say "Thank You" for sharing Amazing Brace. I am surprised I had not come across it yet.

Sharon Dunn sounds like many moms and dads I have chatted with the past year who are all trying to manage scoliosis for their child. If she is confused then WE ARE ALL CONFUSED.

She raises many points that I have raised. Some of them are addressed in the article. I will be adding this article to my scoliosis website. Here are a few specific points from the article that I find very interesting.

#1
======

Back in "English" Canada, I contacted Dr. Ben Alman, head of the orthopaedic division, and AIS specialist, at the Hospital for Sick Children, to find out why the hospital doesn't use the Quebec brace. "The reason SpineCor isn't used here is not because it is good or bad," Alman told me. "It's a financial issue. OHIP [Ontario's health insurance plan] doesn't cover it." Hard braces are covered "at least partially," he said. Are parents really not being told about this brace because of the cost? Alman added, "Part of the problem is that the brace is too new to know for certain long-term results."

This was my expectation on why some orthopedic surgeons do not recommend it: insurance does not cover it. Our orthopedic surgeon recommended it but told us that our insurance would probably not cover it, and he said if that was an issue we may want to go with a Boston brace instead.

Here is a very recent example of a similar situation. A woman took her child to see a doctor for VBS. The child is an ideal candidate for it. He did not recommend it. She did not understand. After some prodding on why, he said it was because insurance would not cover it. It is unfortunate that medical recommendations (and bracing recommendations) are influenced by the insurance companies.

#2
=======
A $12-million grant from the Quebec government in 1992 enabled Rivard to get the brace off the ground, and to begin research on the development of new instrumentation to be used in the place of fusion. The intellectual property rights for the brace are owned by Sainte-Justine's.


Some on this forum claim (as if it was fact and misleading people) the only reason Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard are promoting the SpineCor brace is because they are the inventors and are making more money. I have often responded that none of us know the financial incentives, if any, exist for the inventors, so we should not make that assumption. It looks like the IP is owned by Sainte-Justine's, not the inventors. Therefore, maybe Sainte-Justine's makes money. But who knows?

#3 (not from the article)
==================
Regarding adult curve correction with the SpineCor brace here is what is stated on spinecorporation.com:

Treatment objectives for adults are postural improvement and pain reduction. Whilst postural improvements may lead to very small Cobb angle reductions, true correction of scoliotic curves in adults is not possible and should never be the treatment objective. Early results with adults are very positive, with both postural improvements and pain reduction in all patients to date.

So, at least with this statement it looks like some cobb angle reductions can be achieved from postural improvements. But, since this is so new, who knows what may be possible. Most orthopedic surgeons and brace inventors/manufacturers make very little claims on curve reduction for children. Three of the four orthopedic surgeons we met all said that bracing would NOT reduce Syd's curves, only stabilize it from progressing.

Syd's T4-T12 (and T5-T12) curve has decreased from 36 to 23 (with SpineCor brace). Many others have had similar results with SpineCor or other braces. It is cases like this that turn everything upside down on traditional thinking.

I learned the other day that VBS has been around since the 1950s but because it failed to show positive results it was abandoned. Then Dr. Betz started it up again and now it is showing great results.

It is through this level of experimentation that we progress (and sometimes have setbacks). Who knows, maybe the combination of some physical therapy (like Schroth and others) along with SpineCor may some day be the best treatment for pain reduction and curve correction for adults. We can only hope.

Thank you for sharing this article. I will make sure it is available for many others to read.

Michael

aterry
04-08-2010, 08:30 AM
Thank you, rohrer, mamamax and michael for your postings on this thread. I agree with Michael that waiting and watching is not much of an approach. I find it appalling that the SRS crowd thinks this is GOOD medicine. One of the things that has struck me with all of the orthos that I've taken my daughter to (three so far) is an utter lack of curiosity. They really don't seem to know much about scoliosis and further they don't seem to care that they don't know. Where would we be with cancer research if an equal lack of curiosity and concern was the norm in the field?

dailystrength
04-08-2010, 01:03 PM
dailystrength and mamamax (and others)

While I have incredible respect for orthopedic surgeons, chiropractors and other professionals, all of them are still trying to figure out the best treatment for scoliosis. I have reached the point, with confidence, along with many others, that we have to manage our own scoliosis or that of our children, and we need to do it in a holistic manner working with many different professionals as we feel is required.

Michael

Yes, I could not agree with you more. I asked for a surgeon referral for Schroth and was lucky to get it, and to have the insurance accept that as legit. Hey - it's a lot cheaper than surgery so its to their advantage! I wrote two long letters practically begging my insurance Co. And got it, yesterday. I hope to be a success story. I am determined.

dailystrength
04-08-2010, 01:12 PM
Thanks! It is pretty amazing :-) Where exactly are you going, sounds like a great place!

Yes, I was given a few Schroth exercises to work with - I've not been very compliant with that .. when the future permits, I'll look into an intensive workshop somewhere. In the mean time, the book you recommended is proving valuable (thanks so much). And I'm now walking more in brace (in the MBTs of course). I was told I could to Schroth out of brace. Interestingly enough, Sharon Dunn's son did no exercise whatsoever, and has maintained his correction post treatment.

It's Jennifer Graham at Graham Therapy and Fitness and I see now it's the Rig-Chenau Brace they work with if the Dr prescribed it. Here is the link: http://www.grahamtherapyandfitness.com/AboutUs.html. That's too bad it's not the brace you are appreciating so much. So, I probably will not do the brace.

Pooka1
04-08-2010, 01:58 PM
(of Sharon Dunn's son) and has maintained his correction post treatment.

1. How long has he been out of brace?
2. How much correction did he get over his pre-brace number?

You are misleading people (or worse) with this post. Do you care?

mamamax
04-08-2010, 05:32 PM
mamamax

Please don't waste your time responding to anyone who does not like the Sharon Dun article. It would be waste of time. Continue to share with us information like you have done so far. It is extremely helpful. I do not see any need to edit your posts.

Those challenging you and the article are once again adding no value to the conversation. With that said, let me say "Thank You" for sharing Amazing Brace. I am surprised I had not come across it yet.

Sharon Dunn sounds like many moms and dads I have chatted with the past year who are all trying to manage scoliosis for their child. If she is confused then WE ARE ALL CONFUSED.

She raises many points that I have raised. Some of them are addressed in the article. I will be adding this article to my scoliosis website. Here are a few specific points from the article that I find very interesting.

Thank you Michael - I agree. Sharon Dunn is an amazing woman and very open to friendly conversation, so I hope you or anyone else feels free to write her. If you cannot find her address on the Internet just send me a PM and I'll forward it to you (or anyone else). Her article also appears at the Spinecor manufacturer's web site under News.


#1
======

Back in "English" Canada, I contacted Dr. Ben Alman, head of the orthopaedic division, and AIS specialist, at the Hospital for Sick Children, to find out why the hospital doesn't use the Quebec brace. "The reason SpineCor isn't used here is not because it is good or bad," Alman told me. "It's a financial issue. OHIP [Ontario's health insurance plan] doesn't cover it." Hard braces are covered "at least partially," he said. Are parents really not being told about this brace because of the cost? Alman added, "Part of the problem is that the brace is too new to know for certain long-term results."

This was my expectation on why some orthopedic surgeons do not recommend it: insurance does not cover it. Our orthopedic surgeon recommended it but told us that our insurance would probably not cover it, and he said if that was an issue we may want to go with a Boston brace instead.

Here is a very recent example of a similar situation. A woman took her child to see a doctor for VBS. The child is an ideal candidate for it. He did not recommend it. She did not understand. After some prodding on why, he said it was because insurance would not cover it. It is unfortunate that medical recommendations (and bracing recommendations) are influenced by the insurance companies.

#2
=======
A $12-million grant from the Quebec government in 1992 enabled Rivard to get the brace off the ground, and to begin research on the development of new instrumentation to be used in the place of fusion. The intellectual property rights for the brace are owned by Sainte-Justine's.


Some on this forum claim (as if it was fact and misleading people) the only reason Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard are promoting the SpineCor brace is because they are the inventors and are making more money. I have often responded that none of us know the financial incentives, if any, exist for the inventors, so we should not make that assumption. It looks like the IP is owned by Sainte-Justine's, not the inventors. Therefore, maybe Sainte-Justine's makes money. But who knows?

#3 (not from the article)
==================
Regarding adult curve correction with the SpineCor brace here is what is stated on spinecorporation.com:

Treatment objectives for adults are postural improvement and pain reduction. Whilst postural improvements may lead to very small Cobb angle reductions, true correction of scoliotic curves in adults is not possible and should never be the treatment objective. Early results with adults are very positive, with both postural improvements and pain reduction in all patients to date.

So, at least with this statement it looks like some cobb angle reductions can be achieved from postural improvements. But, since this is so new, who knows what may be possible. Most orthopedic surgeons and brace inventors/manufacturers make very little claims on curve reduction for children. Three of the four orthopedic surgeons we met all said that bracing would NOT reduce Syd's curves, only stabilize it from progressing.

Yes - very definitely there is a postural element to scoliosis - I have an article somewhere that addresses that. Originally found it through Scoliosis Journal I believe. The article actually gave a quantitative amount for adolescents and said that the amount for adults was yet to be determined. Now, when we step outside the bracing box for a moment - there is Martha Hawes who reduced her curvatures by 50% ... she publishes every 4 years and has not yet hit an end point. So this is fascinating from the adult point of view. Martha is also very open to friendly conversation should anyone wish to write to her.


Syd's T4-T12 (and T5-T12) curve has decreased from 36 to 23 (with SpineCor brace). Many others have had similar results with SpineCor or other braces. It is cases like this that turn everything upside down on traditional thinking.

I learned the other day that VBS has been around since the 1950s but because it failed to show positive results it was abandoned. Then Dr. Betz started it up again and now it is showing great results.

It is through this level of experimentation that we progress (and sometimes have setbacks). Who knows, maybe the combination of some physical therapy (like Schroth and others) along with SpineCor may some day be the best treatment for pain reduction and curve correction for adults. We can only hope.

Thank you for sharing this article. I will make sure it is available for many others to read.

Michael

Thank you Michael - Please let us know as soon as your web site is up and running - sounds like it is going to be great!

mamamax
04-08-2010, 05:37 PM
It's Jennifer Graham at Graham Therapy and Fitness and I see now it's the Rig-Chenau Brace they work with if the Dr prescribed it. Here is the link: http://www.grahamtherapyandfitness.com/AboutUs.html. That's too bad it's not the brace you are appreciating so much. So, I probably will not do the brace.

Well I hope you're loading up your camera and planning on keeping a journal, sounds like a productive time ahead. Chenau is being used for adults in Germany - I don't know about the US.

Pooka1
04-08-2010, 06:11 PM
Mamamax, you should remove Post #80. You can't substantiate the claim. If you could you would have by now.

Once you do that, I will remove posts 81, 89, 95 and this one, 98.

mamamax
04-08-2010, 06:43 PM
Mamamax, you should remove Post #80. You can't substantiate the claim. If you could you would have by now.

Once you do that, I will remove posts 81, 89, 95 and this one, 98.

As attractive as your offer to remove four obnoxious posts is to me - I have decided to simply edit post #80.

The last time we went though something like this - It was over Martha Hawes, right? I wasn't wrong then and if memory serves me correct, I am not wrong on this one.

Pooka1
04-08-2010, 06:47 PM
As attractive as your offer to remove four obnoxious posts is to me -

Posts asking you to explain how you know what you claim to know are obnoxious?

Why?

Knowledge is power.

Pooka1
04-08-2010, 06:49 PM
Sharon Dunn's son did no exercise whatsoever, and has maintained his correction post treatment.

Edit: The above anecdotal note concerning Sharon Dunn's son - was offered from memory of my correspondence with her.

If you aren't sure he maintained his correction them you need to remove that. It goes against the claims of even the inventors and is frankly unbelievable.

If you could have substantiated it you would have by now.

mamamax
04-08-2010, 06:51 PM
You need to stop it Sharon. Jeezzz I feel like I'm engaged in a bracing debate with Dr. Stitzel. Only he has manners. I'm just sayin :rolleyes:

Pooka1
04-08-2010, 06:56 PM
You need to stop it Sharon.

You need to control what you read rather than what others write EXCEPT when counterfactual stuff is posted. That is the one reason a moderator is ever needed. If we allow nonsense then this might as well just degrade into a group sing-a-long.


Jeezzz I feel like I'm engaged in a bracing debate with Dr. Stitzel. Only he has manners. I'm just sayin :rolleyes:

This is too emotional for you to discuss.

mamamax
04-08-2010, 07:03 PM
I don't think emotional is the right word. Ridiculous, comes to mind.

It is time for the hamster dance I do believe.

For those who don't know about the hamster dance - a stress relief thing originally offered by Sharon, long ago

http://www.hampsterdance.com/classics/originaldance.htm

Pooka1
04-08-2010, 07:31 PM
I don't think emotional is the right word. Ridiculous, comes to mind.

It is time for the hamster dance I do believe.

For those who don't know about the hamster dance - a stress relief thing originally offered by Sharon, long ago

http://www.hampsterdance.com/classics/originaldance.htm


That one is broken.

This one works:

http://www.webhamster.com/