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flerc
03-03-2010, 10:37 AM
Hi, I’m an argentine father of a pretty girl of 16 years old. I hope you could understand my poor English.
She has as a severe scoliosis, but we are looking for a non surgical treatment. It would be great for me to contact with parents of daughters in similar conditions, seeking for the same kind of solution.
I want to reduce her curve all that it could be possible to reduce.
I’m evaluating a lot of different alternatives like ABR (Advanced Biomechanical Rehabilitation), SpineCor, Fed Machine, Global Postural Re-education (GPR), EDF (Cotrel), Feldenkrais …, but I feel very bad with myself because after one year of investigation, I could not find the knowledge I think necessary for select the best solution (surely a combination of treatments) for her.
I think that as in any kind of problem, exists some facts, that could not be ignored for arrive to a satisfactory solution.
I have contacted with a lot of people in the Spanish forum in www.escoliosis.org but even I have known good people, it seems that nobody with a daughter like mine has much interest in the Spanish spoken world to know that facts, that should lead to the best choice in each case.

I really feel a great loneliness. I’m not a health professional and I had not a medical in my familiars or friends. It seems I’m fighting in the darkness. I’m sure medicals professionals must to know that facts I’m looking for. I have elaborated some questions, which should leads to those facts. I have asked a lot of doctors in my country, but the most refused to answer those questions and the so few answers I had recollected are contradictorys or inconsistents.
If anyone (father or not) wants to know that facts too, or knows somebody that could answer my questions, please make me know writing in those thread.

Thanks in advance!

aterry
03-03-2010, 10:52 AM
I'm sorry you are feeling lonely in your search to make the best choices for your daughter. I have a 17 year old daughter and I also feel overwhelmed. Like you, I have gotten conflicting information from doctors and have not learned very much that is of help. Even so-called experts don't seem truly knowledgeable. At present my daughter is doing physical therapy but that's more for pain and to try to hold off progression. You could spend more time on this forum reading the threads that discuss non-surgical approaches and research.

titaniumed
03-03-2010, 11:32 AM
Flerc

Your English is pretty good. You will get some of your questions answered here, there are quite a few of us.

I was wondering how severe is your daughters scoliosis? Do you have x-rays? Do you know her Cobb angles?

Are you in Buenos Aires? Have you seen a scoliosis surgeon?

Scoliosis is a difficult subject. That’s why we are here.

Nice to hear from someone in Argentina! Welcome.

Regards
Ed

flerc
03-03-2010, 12:38 PM
I'm sorry you are feeling lonely in your search to make the best choices for your daughter. I have a 17 year old daughter and I also feel overwhelmed. Like you, I have gotten conflicting information from doctors and have not learned very much that is of help. Even so-called experts don't seem truly knowledgeable. At present my daughter is doing physical therapy but that's more for pain and to try to hold off progression. You could spend more time on this forum reading the threads that discuss non-surgical approaches and research.

Aterry, I don´t know if the scoliosis of your daughter is sever too, but thanks for let me know I’m not the only one looking for knowledge and receiving conflictive information from doctors and health professionals.
I think the only possibility is having a so close relationship with a doctor .. Do you know someone?

P.D : Does we should posts here http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=100 ?

Pooka1
03-03-2010, 12:55 PM
Hola. I will try to answer your questions.


Hi, I’m an argentine father of a pretty girl of 16 years old. I hope you could understand my poor English.
She has as a severe scoliosis, but we are looking for a non surgical treatment. It would be great for me to contact with parents of daughters in similar conditions, seeking for the same kind of solution.
I want to reduce her curve all that it could be possible to reduce.

What do you mean by advanced? What are her curve angles? That will determine [partly what treatment is suggested. Also, are her curves getting bigger over time?


I’m evaluating a lot of different alternatives like ABR (Advanced Biomechanical Rehabilitation), SpineCor, Fed Machine, Global Postural Re-education (GPR), EDF (Cotrel), Feldenkrais …, but I feel very bad with myself because after one year of investigation, I could not find the knowledge I think necessary for select the best solution (surely a combination of treatments) for her.
I think that as in any kind of problem, exists some facts, that could not be ignored for arrive to a satisfactory solution.
I have contacted with a lot of people in the Spanish forum in www.escoliosis.org but even I have known good people, it seems that nobody with a daughter like mine has much interest in the Spanish spoken world to know that facts, that should lead to the best choice in each case.

You are a very good father or researching all those treatments. Do any of them have evidence for reducing severe curves?


I really feel a great loneliness. I’m not a health professional and I had not a medical in my familiars or friends. It seems I’m fighting in the darkness.

I think everyone feels that way at first. Maybe joining our group like you have done will help you feel less lonely. There are other parents of children who are going through what you are going through.


I’m sure medicals professionals must to know that facts I’m looking for. I have elaborated some questions, which should leads to those facts. I have asked a lot of doctors in my country, but the most refused to answer those questions and the so few answers I had recollected are contradictorys or inconsistents.

You might want to consider that some large curves cannot be helped by any conservative treatment. It is sad to say.


If anyone (father or not) wants to know that facts too, or knows somebody that could answer my questions, please make me know writing in those thread or sending me an e-mail to flclerici@gmail.com

Thanks in advance!

We have no orthopedic surgeons posting here but if you post your questions I am sure people will respond with what their surgeon has said. I don't know which facts you are talking about. Very little is known about scoliosis. You cannot get blood from a stone and the surgeons are just telling you what is known without making up stories.

Good luck.

flerc
03-03-2010, 02:18 PM
Flerc

Your English is pretty good. You will get some of your questions answered here, there are quite a few of us.

I was wondering how severe is your daughters scoliosis? Do you have x-rays? Do you know her Cobb angles?

Are you in Buenos Aires? Have you seen a scoliosis surgeon?

Scoliosis is a difficult subject. That’s why we are here.

Nice to hear from someone in Argentina! Welcome.

Regards
Ed

Ed, thanks for make me feel welcome in those forum and for you said about my english (is not true as you are seeing or you’ll see). Yes, I live in Buenos Aires, but I’m not a typically man of this city. All people here make ever what the doctors say to do.
The right thoracic-lumbar scoliosis of my daughter is diagnostic like surgical by many scoliosis surgeons. In fact they only see the Cobb angle. They has not interest to know about nothing more for the diagnosis, as progression, pain, psychological damage.. nothing more than Cobb angle. As it is greater than 50° (56° in last x-rays) all possible analysis finished there. The x-ray of one year before was of 57°. I want she can to reduce 6,1 degrees more, so they will change the diagnosis.. it could sound ridiculous, but really I think it could be a significant difference, not only of course of what doctors would say. I think could be physics reasons (not only statisticals) like a critic angle relationed with the resistance of the column..
Doctors says that is impossible to reduce degrees after growth is finished, buy have never explained me why. Impossible for me means IMPOSSIBLE, not only difficult or statistically improbable.
Sorely is difficult to find the best without the right knowledge.

Thanks again!

Pooka1
03-03-2010, 02:34 PM
The right thoracic-lumbar scoliosis of my daughter is diagnostic like surgical by many scoliosis surgeons. In fact they only see the Cobb angle. They has not interest to know about nothing more for the diagnosis, as progression, pain, psychological damage.. nothing more than Cobb angle.

Experienced pediatric orthopedic surgeons who work with scoliosis are concerned with EVERYTHING, not just the Cobb angle. It sounds like you should meet with an experienced pediatric orthopedic surgeon who works with scoliosis.



As it is greater than 50° (56° in last x-rays) all possible analysis finished there. The x-ray of one year before was of 57°.

It sounds like the curve is not changing over at least the last year. That is very good! If it stays there, and she has no pain and doesn't mind how she looks then I don't think a surgeon would operate on her. Progression must be shown unless the angle is much larger I think.


I want she can to reduce 6,1 degrees more, so they will change the diagnosis.. it could sound ridiculous, but really I think it could be a significant difference, not only of course of what doctors would say. I think could be physics reasons (not only statisticals) like a critic angle relationed with the resistance of the column..
Doctors says that is impossible to reduce degrees after growth is finished, buy have never explained me why. Impossible for me means IMPOSSIBLE, not only difficult or statistically improbable.
Sorely is difficult to find the best without the right knowledge.

I don't think an experienced pediatric orthopedic surgeon who specializes in scoliosis would say it is impossible to reduce that curve ~6*. I think it is very likely she can reduce the curve that much. The problem is that it isn't permanent and she will have to keep doing what she is doing the rest of her life to hopefully keep the curve from getting bigger again. And it may stop working after a while. Nobody knows.

flerc
03-03-2010, 02:53 PM
Experienced pediatric orthopedic surgeons who work with scoliosis are concerned with EVERYTHING, not just the Cobb angle. It sounds like you should meet with an experienced pediatric orthopedic surgeon who works with scoliosis.



It sounds like the curve is not changing over at least the last year. That is very good! If it stays there, and she has no pain and doesn't mind how she looks then I don't think a surgeon would operate on her. Progression must be shown unless the angle is much larger I think.



I don't think an experienced pediatric orthopedic surgeon who specializes in scoliosis would say it is impossible to reduce that curve ~6*. I think it is very likely she can reduce the curve that much. The problem is that it isn't permanent and she will have to keep doing what she is doing the rest of her life to hopefully keep the curve from getting bigger again. And it may stop working after a while. Nobody knows.


Pooka1, It’s so nice for me to speak with you. Now I really not feel so alone. I’ll reply some questions in nexts posts

Thanks! I needed to heard some as you said.

flerc
03-03-2010, 09:36 PM
Hola Pooka1, let me know if I using wrong some word or term, so you could not understand me.

In fact the surgeon is surely at least one of the 2 or 3 with most experience in scoliosis of my country and I’m sure is the least strict in surgeon’s criteria.
In fact he said that surgery is not necessary now, but he is sure that it would be before her 21 years.. he is sure that surgeon is the only possibility after 50º.
Other surgeons said me that surgery must to be now and told me that I am a bad father if I refuse that idea.
Surgeons in EEUU don’t think that? It would be a great notice for me.
If you understand Spanish mas o menos bien, and look in the spain forum.. mothers with adolescents of 40º or least are looking for the best fusion.. they are so respectful but they made me feel like a crazy.. nobody think in other possibility.

About evidence of reducing curves, I know by own experience what inexactly are x-rays, but.. here are some ones:
Fed: http://www.sastre-roca.com/casospracticos.html (14 years old 55º to 32º)

Gpr: http://www.rpg.org.ar/es/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78:mp-42-anos-fem-escoliosis-dorso-lumbar-ardor-en-cervicales-y-dorsales-altas-cefaleas-lumbalgia&catid=3:morfologico-sintomatico&Itemid=54
42 years old 50º to 40º

Edf:
(no x-rays) http://www.tesisenxarxa.net/TESIS_UB/AVAILABLE/TDX-0609104-113152//TESISILVIA.pdf
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15144900

In fact I think the only ones in the world speaking about a definitely cure (without maintence), regardless the age or degrees are the ABR people:
http://www.abrtherapy.com/english.html

I know some parents and I have seen incredible cases, but not idiophatics.

Somebody said that is possible to reduce degrees but impossible maintain this reduction because the inter vertebral space wedge. As Sastre (Fed Machine inventor) has demonstrated, the traumatism in the concave side produced by more pressing, avoid the possibility to groth like the convex side, leading the growth of the curve.
It seems logic that if this wedge persist, then it would be impossible to maintain the reduction reached in a no surgical way.
Then, the first question I think must be that:

1) Is possible to recompose after growth is finished, the concave side of the inter vertebral side, so it could reach the same or similar height that the convex side, or the damage is irreversible?

After surgery, the 2 sides have similar height, but they are forced to maintain that height. Which is the state of the concave side in that case? Are it terrible damaged as Sastre says woud be in a scoliotic column? If it could be possible to undo fusion, what could happen with this concave side? It would be weak and the convex side strong, so column could not keep right?
I think that doctors must to know that.
I have more questions like that but concerned with another factors.

Un saludo

dailystrength
03-03-2010, 09:46 PM
Hi. I have a 49 degree right lumbar and 34 left thoracic, and it has held steady in the past year with exercises. My surgeon will not do surgery on me, he said. He is an expert in scoliosis research and said the outcome is not always better due to degeneration above and below the fusion. He said even if my curve gets worse, it could be better than surgery. So far I am doing okay.

flerc
03-03-2010, 11:09 PM
Hi. I have a 49 degree right lumbar and 34 left thoracic, and it has held steady in the past year with exercises. My surgeon will not do surgery on me, he said. He is an expert in scoliosis research and said the outcome is not always better due to degeneration above and below the fusion. He said even if my curve gets worse, it could be better than surgery. So far I am doing okay.

dailystrength, you are just before the limit. If you live in my country surgeons will expect one degree more for do surgery on you.. in fact only the more experienced, for the most 40 or 45 degrees is the limit.
Is so comforting for me to heard what your surgeon said.. I can’t belive it.. of course I don’t doubt on what you said.. we live in two different worlds without any doubt!.

I’m really grateful for saying me that.

titaniumed
03-03-2010, 11:17 PM
Interesting methods used in Barcelona, Spain.

See page 293 for Sastre treatment using FED unit in English.

http://books.google.com/books?id=y35mtplGFgkC&pg=PA258&lpg=PA258&dq=santos+sastre+scoliosis&source=bl&ots=T_4lrr4snw&sig=Yv_6tRjPJLWtlrIVQtLVJ4tzSPY&hl=en&ei=MTiPS-SLOYXysQOG3ejgCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#

50-90Kg is one hell of a pull. Thats 110-190# Wow!

The Spanish sure does put a twist on this..... still very interesting.
There are a few links posted, still looking at all these.

Flerc
Is there a possibility that you might go to Spain? Are any of these methods being practiced in Argentina?
Ed

Pooka1
03-04-2010, 06:04 AM
Saludo Flerc.

I lived in Puerto Rico for 3 years and was able to understand most of what was said in Spanish in my meetings by the end of the three years. But I cannot speak it well and I don't remember much from that time.


Hola Pooka1, let me know if I using wrong some word or term, so you could not understand me.

In fact the surgeon is surely at least one of the 2 or 3 with most experience in scoliosis of my country and I’m sure is the least strict in surgeon’s criteria.
In fact he said that surgery is not necessary now, but he is sure that it would be before her 21 years.. he is sure that surgeon is the only possibility after 50º.

Yes I think the reason he says she doesn't need it now is that she has been stable for at least a year. I am not a surgeon but I don't think they operate on stable curves even at the angle where your daughter is. If she has no pain then I really don't think they will operate. At least three people on this group had large curves that didn't progress for years and even decades. One woman had surgery not because the curve was getting bigger but because of pain.


Other surgeons said me that surgery must to be now and told me that I am a bad father if I refuse that idea.

Well, there are some reasons for surgery now but I don't think it is clear. I think some reasons to get surgery now might be to hope she can get a better correction and balance, she will have less damage to the spine (in the fused portion), she will look better if that is bothering her, etc. You should ask the surgeon ¿Por qué? it is necessary to have surgery now when the curve is not progressing.


Surgeons in EEUU don’t think that? It would be a great notice for me.
If you understand Spanish mas o menos bien, and look in the spain forum.. mothers with adolescents of 40º or least are looking for the best fusion.. they are so respectful but they made me feel like a crazy.. nobody think in other possibility.

I did understand Spanish mas o menos but not now unfortunately.

Usted no está loco. :) You are a great father for researching and caring. Each case is different. Do not compare with the other children.


About evidence of reducing curves, I know by own experience what inexactly are x-rays, but.. here are some ones:
Fed: http://www.sastre-roca.com/casospracticos.html (14 years old 55º to 32º)

Those are amazing corrections! Are they saying they are permanent? Are the second radiographs of when the person is in the machine? If that were true nobody would need surgery I think.


In fact I think the only ones in the world speaking about a definitely cure (without maintence), regardless the age or degrees are the ABR people:
http://www.abrtherapy.com/english.html

If they are right they will get the Nobel Prize in physiology/medicine. We will have to wait and see.


I know some parents and I have seen incredible cases, but not idiophatics.

Yes and many smaller curves will reduce or even disappear through doing nothing.


Somebody said that is possible to reduce degrees but impossible maintain this reduction because the inter vertebral space wedge. As Sastre (Fed Machine inventor) has demonstrated, the traumatism in the concave side produced by more pressing, avoid the possibility to groth like the convex side, leading the growth of the curve.
It seems logic that if this wedge persist, then it would be impossible to maintain the reduction reached in a no surgical way.
Then, the first question I think must be that:

1) Is possible to recompose after growth is finished, the concave side of the inter vertebral side, so it could reach the same or similar height that the convex side, or the damage is irreversible?

After operation, the 2 sides have similar height, but they are forced to maintain that height. Which is the state of the concave side in that case? Are it terrible damaged as Sastre says woud be in a scoliotic column? If it could be possible to undo fusion, what could happen with this concave side? It would be weak and the convex side strong, so column could not keep right?
I think that doctors must to know that.
I have more questions like that but concerned with another factors.

Surgeons know these answers. I do not.I think there is something called "wedge osteotomy" that will make the vertebra level again but I don't know why they don't just do that and not fuse.

What levels are in your daughters curve? Thoracic? Lumbar? Both? Which vertebra?

Recuerdos,
sharon

Pooka1
03-04-2010, 06:27 AM
The x-ray of one year before was of 57°.

Do you have any x-rays from before last year?

flerc
03-04-2010, 09:13 AM
Saludo Flerc.

I lived in Puerto Rico for 3 years and was able to understand most of what was said in Spanish in my meetings by the end of the three years. But I cannot speak it well and I don't remember much from that time.

I’m remembering English, you could try to remember Spanish, I could help you.



Yes I think the reason he says she doesn't need it now is that she has been stable for at least a year. I am not a surgeon but I don't think they operate on stable curves even at the angle where your daughter is. If she has no pain then I really don't think they will operate. At least three people on this group had large curves that didn't progress for years and even decades. One woman had surgery not because the curve was getting bigger but because of pain.


Fortunalley, at least since last year with GPR treatment I could say she has not any pain and the Currents Photos looks best than from that time. She feel good, and seems to be happy even she have some idea of the severity of her scoliosis.



Well, there are some reasons for surgery now but I don't think it is clear. I think some reasons to get surgery now might be to hope she can get a better correction and balance, she will have less damage to the spine (in the fused portion), she will look better if that is bothering her, etc. You should ask the surgeon ¿Por qué? it is necessary to have surgery now when the curve is not progressing.


They says that flexibility is lost through (current surgeon explain why this could be true) the pass of years, so fusion would be worst. They not said nothing about improve technology in the future.



I did understand Spanish mas o menos but not now unfortunately.

Usted no está loco. :) You are a great father for researching and caring. Each case is different. Do not compare with the other children.


Thanks, it great for me to hear that and to be in those forum!



Those are amazing corrections! Are they saying they are permanent? Are the second radiographs of when the person is in the machine? If that were true nobody would need surgery I think.


I think ther’s not into the machine. They says that only works during growing, not after. I think that results are similar to others methods using external forces without collateral damages as Spinecor seems to be.



If they are right they will get the Nobel Prize in physiology/medicine. We will have to wait and see.

Yes and many smaller curves will reduce or even disappear through doing nothing.


In fact these childrens with cerebral paralysis have all body deformed not only column and the progression is terrible!. Some fathers told me that without ABR treatment their sons would be death as doctors saids to him what would be happens.
They work over a concept absolutely ignored by any other treatment: the pneumatic skeleton.
I have read that a collapsed lung lead to scoliosis. Swimming is high recommended by doctors.. ABR people focus on organs, they see its as the guiltys not the victims.
It seems so logic that if the trunk is collapsed the column inside it would be collapsed too. In at least some kinds of neurological scoliosis I could say that it works. But in idiopathics? How could we know that?



Surgeons know these answers. I do not.I think there is something called "wedge osteotomy" that will make the vertebra level again but I don't know why they don't just do that and not fuse.

If I understand you well (I have difficult with some constructions) it’s the same I’m asking to. I spoke with somebody in my country asking for these surgery in scoliosis and without any explication said me that it could not works.
I have asked for the irrecoverable or not damage in these disks (avoiding surgery’s solutions) to many doctors and I have not a clear response. If you think they know that, please ask him. It’s a crucial point. Much questions could be associated with it, like if decompression could help (ever speaking after growth finished)



What levels are in your daughters curve? Thoracic? Lumbar? Both? Which vertebra?

Recuerdos,
sharon

Both, I'm not remebering now the number of vertbras, I' ll continue next

Muchas gracias!! Es un verdadero placer hablar con vos!

flerc
03-04-2010, 09:39 AM
Interesting methods used in Barcelona, Spain.

See page 293 for Sastre treatment using FED unit in English.

http://books.google.com/books?id=y35mtplGFgkC&pg=PA258&lpg=PA258&dq=santos+sastre+scoliosis&source=bl&ots=T_4lrr4snw&sig=Yv_6tRjPJLWtlrIVQtLVJ4tzSPY&hl=en&ei=MTiPS-SLOYXysQOG3ejgCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#

50-90Kg is one hell of a pull. Thats 110-190# Wow!

The Spanish sure does put a twist on this..... still very interesting.
There are a few links posted, still looking at all these.

Flerc
Is there a possibility that you might go to Spain? Are any of these methods being practiced in Argentina?
Ed

Ed, I have a sister living in Barcelona, but there is that machine in Buenos Aires. The problem is that my daughter has Risser 4, menarche when she was 12 years old, it seems also about last x-rays that her growth is finished probably at all. They said me that it only works (reduce degrees) before that state.
Probably because GPR, she has a great (at least for me) flexibility, she could voluntary unrotate and stretch her column in a way that it seems to be like a normal back. So I think that in her current state (when she was Risser 2, surely would was different) it could not help more than other therapy like ABR o Spinecor that I think, could help to keep that stretch. Unfortunally it not exist in Argentina and probably will never exists..

Regards
Fernando

flerc
03-04-2010, 11:32 AM
Two years ago it was 54°. I didn’t know absolutely nothing about scoliosis and the tramatology made a bad measurement and said 43°. We was not so worry and during this year the only treatment was Antigymnastique. Next year was 57° as a good measurement of the current surgeon (who recommended surgeon) said. The first and more convincing and that seems with less risk was GPR. We noted a good improvement in all senses, and the x-ray of July was of 47°. Of course was enormous the happiness we felt, the surgeon said that even he has not explication about what could happened, he not recommended surgery.
Last month, the x-rays showed 56°. The GPR therapist said that never before she presenced nothing similar, and he saw as impossible to decrease and increase so many degrees in a short time.
Surgeon, who now recommended surgeon again, said that it could happen.
I told him that probably in last x-ray, her column no was parallel at all to the x-ray machine, and he agreed. I was analyzing in more details and it no seemed so probable.
I think that surely, as in the last x-ray her left shoulder was so upper, and not like that in the new, and so she is so flexibly, the July’ x-ray don’t reflected the reality.
Of course I remains obtaining different opinion from doctors..

Sharon, tell me about your twins please.


Do you have any x-rays from before last year?

flerc
03-04-2010, 01:09 PM
Like Abr people says (in fact is a matter of problem solving), no matter with the original cause, current causes are the important ones!
By definition, in ideophatic scoliosis, original cause is unknown, not like the currents causes, as are decrypted in the scoliosis’s vicious circle.
Much of those causes are the result from the scoliosis itself as vertebral and inter vertebral wedge, muscular and neuromuscular distortions, bad posture, biomechanical alteration..
Could it be that the original and unknown cause remains as a current cause too. In that case, would be logic to think that a solution could not be found until that cause will be known. But is so possible that that cause operated only at the beginning, as ABR people says, and then the disaster grow up alone.. in fact not alone. Gravity contributes without any doubt.

But in thoracic or lumbar thoracic, the sternum conform and structure with the ribs and vertebras. It seems logic to think that when the sternum has reached the solidification, that structure could not be change and then, vertebras could not be unrotated and then, degrees could not be reduced.
So the second question is :

2) Is it true all that about the thoracic structure? Which is the age when sternum reaches the solidification?

As in the first question, I recived differents and opposites answers from doctors.
I really think they should have to know the true about this.

dailystrength
03-04-2010, 09:34 PM
dailystrength, you are just before the limit. If you live in my country surgeons will expect one degree more for do surgery on you.. in fact only the more experienced, for the most 40 or 45 degrees is the limit.
Is so comforting for me to heard what your surgeon said.. I can’t belive it.. of course I don’t doubt on what you said.. we live in two different worlds without any doubt!.

I’m really grateful for saying me that.

Thanks. I try to stay encouraged myself. He said that even if I progress a degree a year for the next 20 years, if I am managing okay, it is still better than surgery. He is a neurosurgeon at a major teaching hospital and he is in the Scoliosis Research Society, and has published many articles. I am anxious to view my next x-ray in May.

Pooka1
03-05-2010, 05:40 AM
Sharon, tell me about your twins please.

My identical twins were diagnosed at 12. They both had right thoracic curves but otherwise were very different. One had a curve that moved 5* a month at least for the entire observation period of 5-6 months. She was fused in March 2008. The other had a curve that would move or stay stable whether she was in a brace or not. She was fused in October 2009.

It is probably important to note they have some connective tissue disorder which I am told is still considered "idiopathic" though I don't understand why. I guess they still don't quite know the mechanism of the scoliosis even if they can associate it with a specific genetic disorder.

They both look and feel normal. The surgeon says they are not expected to need any more surgery in their life for scoliosis. They have moved on in their life.

flerc
03-05-2010, 06:56 AM
My identical twins were diagnosed at 12. They both had right thoracic curves but otherwise were very different. One had a curve that moved 5* a month at least for the entire observation period of 5-6 months. She was fused in March 2008. The other had a curve that would move or stay stable whether she was in a brace or not. She was fused in October 2009.

It is probably important to note they have some connective tissue disorder which I am told is still considered "idiopathic" though I don't understand why. I guess they still don't quite know the mechanism of the scoliosis even if they can associate it with a specific genetic disorder.

They both look and feel normal. The surgeon says they are not expected to need any more surgery in their life for scoliosis. They have moved on in their life.


Sharon, both fusions was made over 3 months ago and they feel good, so you could be sure it were so good surgeries and it’s true what surgeon said to you. I have heard about of complications before that period.. that’s why I consider surgery a solution of a high risk, but obviously in some cases it should be accepted that risk and could be a great solution but is difficult to know before fusion was made. I’m happy for you.
A friend has a daughter in very similar conditions that mine, but with a double curve. The fusion was only in a curve and after some months, the other curve became to reduce alone. Recently he said me that scoliosis is nearly a bad recall (recuerdo). I think he is feeling so good and I so bad… but I’m sure I must to find what I’m looking for and of course all scoliosis are so different.. in his daughter few vertebras was necessary to be fusioned because the type of curve..
Is your twin of the last fusion using brace? I think Spinecor should be the best. I’m so sorry it not exists in my country..
It’s true what you say about the criteria of idiopathic definition. I note something I could not define, but as a neurological disorder very much subtle in fact, but doctors says it not exists, because she passed the proofs. I think I could do that superficially proofs too..

Un saludo y seguimos en contacto

Fer

Pooka1
03-05-2010, 07:05 AM
I’m happy for you.

Muchas gracias mi amigo, Flerc.


Is your twin of the last fusion using brace?

No neither of my daughters needed a brace after the surgery. Very few kid need a brace after surgery because the rods and screws are so strong. In fact 95% of kids don't even need any physical restrictions after surgery because the instrumentation is so strong.

Before surgery, my daughter whose curve moved 5* a month was never braced. I think the surgeons knew that when it moves that fast that no brace will hold it.

Before surgery, my other daughter wore a brace at night (Charleston bending brace) but the curve increased in the brace. She wore it every night for a year and stopped wearing it when it didn't fit I think due to the bigger curve.

flerc
03-05-2010, 07:11 AM
Thanks. I try to stay encouraged myself. He said that even if I progress a degree a year for the next 20 years, if I am managing okay, it is still better than surgery. He is a neurosurgeon at a major teaching hospital and he is in the Scoliosis Research Society, and has published many articles. I am anxious to view my next x-ray in May.


Please tell your neurosurgeon to come to Argentina! He must to give a conference. I spoke by telephone with the surgeon considered the best in my country and he said me that he saw like that impossible that a curve of so many degrees like my daughter’s column is, could not need surgery. Is your surgeon an exception in your country?
I think he has reason in what he told you. I know a women over 60 years old with 80° with a normal life without pain.. Recently she won a swimming competition.. but she is ever doing something like GPR, gravitatory gymanastic, Feldenkrais… recently Atlas Profilaxis.

Thanks! And please tell me more about you

Fer

flerc
03-05-2010, 09:27 AM
Ed, I have a sister living in Barcelona, but there is that machine in Buenos Aires. The problem is that my daughter has Risser 4, menarche when she was 12 years old, it seems also about last x-rays that her growth is finished probably at all. They said me that it only works (reduce degrees) before that state.
Probably because GPR, she has a great (at least for me) flexibility, she could voluntary unrotate and stretch her column in a way that it seems to be like a normal back. So I think that in her current state (when she was Risser 2, surely would was different) it could not help more than other therapy like ABR o Spinecor that I think, could help to keep that stretch. Unfortunally it not exist in Argentina and probably will never exists..

Regards
Fernando

Ed, in fact Fed machine is used in Spain in adults! It seems that stretching and decompression is good for everyone. http://escoliosis.org/escoforo/index.php?topic=855.msg6591#msg6591 I could help you to translate it.
Ed, in fact Fed machine is used in Spain in adults! It seems that stretching and decompression is good for everyone. I could help you to translate it.

P.D: Forgive my ignorance but what do you means in your sign with ‘new and now’?
Fer

flerc
03-05-2010, 10:13 AM
Hi, I’m an argentine father of a pretty girl of 16 years old. I hope you could understand my poor English.
She has as a severe scoliosis, but we are looking for a non surgical treatment. It would be great for me to contact with parents of daughters in similar conditions, seeking for the same kind of solution.
I want to reduce her curve all that it could be possible to reduce.
I’m evaluating a lot of different alternatives like ABR (Advanced Biomechanical Rehabilitation), SpineCor, Fed Machine, Global Postural Re-education (GPR), EDF (Cotrel), Feldenkrais …, but I feel very bad with myself because after one year of investigation, I could not find the knowledge I think necessary for select the best solution (surely a combination of treatments) for her.
I think that as in any kind of problem, exists some facts, that could not be ignored for arrive to a satisfactory solution.
I have contacted with a lot of people in the Spanish forum in www.escoliosis.org but even I have known good people, it seems that nobody with a daughter like mine has much interest in the Spanish spoken world to know that facts, that should lead to the best choice in each case.

I really feel a great loneliness. I’m not a health professional and I had not a medical in my familiars or friends. It seems I’m fighting in the darkness. I’m sure medicals professionals must to know that facts I’m looking for. I have elaborated some questions, which should leads to those facts. I have asked a lot of doctors in my country, but the most refused to answer those questions and the so few answers I had recollected are contradictorys or inconsistents.
If anyone (father or not) wants to know that facts too, or knows somebody that could answer my questions, please make me know

Thanks in advance!

My request is about some questions, but they are only one of the main outputs of a problem solving process I have started one year ago.
Before continuing doing that questions I want to order in some way what I have elaborated. It will requieres several posts.

As in every problem, we must start defining the problem. In same way I made this detailing more or lest the type of scoliosis of my daughter.
I think it could be useful for many parents with children in more or lest similar conditions, and probably in other cases, ..who know.
The next we must do is defining the requirements, that is, describing what will be a satisfactory solution for us.
Of course I’ll continuing defining all under my point of view.

Solution Requirements:
Not great pain as a consequence of her scoliosis during her life, no much often back pain like in normal people, no problem with vital functions or organs like lungs, not an evident (at least no much evident) curve or hump for people who never have heard about scoliosis when she is waking in bikini in the beach (like now) for at least 20 years more .
A permanent reduction in her Cobb angle to at least one degree less than the critic angle.
I’ll define next what this means for me.

I think that the solution will consist in a treatment that surely she should to follow during all her life. So restrictions will refer mainly over that treatment, that could continuously change over time.

Restrictions:
Not to be painful or ugly in some sense.
Not much expensive (it’s difficult for define that, but it could be able to affront for me now)
Not much more than 1 and a half hour 2 times per week with some therapeutic and not much more than 1 and a half hour of home exercise (or something like that).
Also
Could to be follow a normal life, without other restrictions as nothing of drugs, smoke, alcohol, extreme sports, carring heavy weights..

If treatment would consist in something like Yoga, Qi Gong, GPR, Feldenkrais, Body Mind Centering ore something like that, I think it would be the kind of life that all we must to follow, with or without scoliosis.

flerc
03-05-2010, 12:03 PM
It would be only a matter of lucky to could advance in a solution without at least part of the expertise knowledge. We could see it in some way as composed by significant facts, that is the facts (assumptions, affirmations.. or as we want to call its) that must to be taken in account in at least one satisfactory solution.
Going deeper, some facts could be changed or altered (by the solver problem) and other could not. Any kind of solution is delimitated in some way by the fundamentals facts (ff), that is, the unalterable facts that could not be ignored in some kind of solution. By instance, (I’m not sure of that) some kind of properties or behaviors of metals could be a ff in surgery solutions but not in conservative ones and the kind of damage in the apex disk could be a ff in conservative but not in surgery solutions.
In every problem, we could spend a lot of time and resources if we have not correctly identified those fundamentals facts for the kind of solution selected.

In fact I’m trying now to know about the FF in conservative solutions.
I think that the answers of the questions I’m making, could lead to those ff.

flerc
03-05-2010, 01:00 PM
Muchas gracias mi amigo, Flerc.



No neither of my daughters needed a brace after the surgery. Very few kid need a brace after surgery because the rods and screws are so strong. In fact 95% of kids don't even need any physical restrictions after surgery because the instrumentation is so strong.

Before surgery, my daughter whose curve moved 5* a month was never braced. I think the surgeons knew that when it moves that fast that no brace will hold it.

Before surgery, my other daughter wore a brace at night (Charleston bending brace) but the curve increased in the brace. She wore it every night for a year and stopped wearing it when it didn't fit I think due to the bigger curve.

Querida Sharon, I really think you could be sure no brace will be needed by any of your daughters. It’s so little what I know about scoliosis but I’m sure that the scoliosis’s circle vicious could be transformed to a virtuous circle and nothing could do in so direct, effective and at least fast way than surgery does.
I think that it should make Biomechanical and neuromuscular system change in the right way, so posture would be better over time. But some of ‘help’ could be needed sometimes, like given for techniques as Feldenkrais, Eutonia, Alexander, Body mind centering, bioenergetyc, Gpr.. surely great things are useful with or without fusion.

Un beso y me alegro mucho de conocerte
Fer

dailystrength
03-05-2010, 08:04 PM
I think he has reason in what he told you. I know a women over 60 years old with 80° with a normal life without pain.. Recently she won a swimming competition.. but she is ever doing something like GPR, gravitatory gymanastic, Feldenkrais… recently Atlas Profilaxis.

Thanks! And please tell me more about you

Fer
Yes, my doctor has a lot of experience with scoliosis. He has given me Physical therapy referrals whenever I request one. I have learned Pilates and core strengthening exercises for my lumbar curve, and I had some more PT to strengthen my thoracic area (shoulder, neck), as well as massage. I am pretty much pain-free.

My curve was diagnosed at age 12 and I wore a Boston brace for a year and my curve reduced to under 20, from 34 lumbar originally. I was offered surgery at that time! But I chose the conservative route. I am glad I did- techniques were not the best at that time (late 70s). At age 44 I ordered an x-ray due to sharp lumbar and exhausting thoracic pain. The x-ray showed 49 degree lumbar & 34 throracic curves. Shocked, I undertook two rounds of PT and took up weights, yoga, swimming, dance, you name it - I joined a gym with a great variety of activities. A year has passed and I am mostly pain-free at my office job. I also walk at lunchtime if I am able, for 30 minutes. I am hoping to also try the Schroth method. I will find out in May how I am doing. I am consulting a book called Curves, Twists, and Bends by Annette Wellings which has some helpful information.
Your mention of the 80-year old gives me hope! Anyway, that's a bit about me.
When a curve is discovered, it seems scary and overwhelming. But nothing is an emergency. I hope you find some answers. Keep asking good questions!

flerc
03-05-2010, 11:35 PM
Some fundamentals facts (ff) are known as the scoliosis’s vicious circle. In fact it is the result of real ff as the fact that gravity pull down the column most time of the day (at least considering no more than 8-10 hours sleeping and no much of the rest of time swimming).
Not only inter vertebral disk but also vertebra wedge increase under pressure are ones of the others ff.
In fact this vicious circle could be seen as the current (and known) cause of the scoliosis, that is, the facts that are causing, increasing or allowing it now.
If we want to destroy that cause, nothing could be imagine as surgery, but in conservatives solution, this cause must to be absolutely understand. Many facts that could be ignored in surgery solutions could surely be ff in conservative ones.

Of course any kind of satisfactory solution should stretch the column and keep that stretching. That is what surgery does. Stretching is doing applying a big force. Newton’s laws says that another force generate resistance to that force. So:

3) Which is the source of the resistance of the column to be stretched?
Rigid vertebral joints, short muscles in the concave side, solidification of sternum (in thoracic curves), ligaments, inalterability of inter vertebral disk space, medullar tension, vertebral rotation?
In last case, which is the source for unrotation resistence? Are there another factors?
Which is the most important of those factors? It depends in each case? Why could then be determined?

flerc
03-06-2010, 06:48 PM
Yes, my doctor has a lot of experience with scoliosis. He has given me Physical therapy referrals whenever I request one.

You are so lucky to have a doctor like that.


I have learned Pilates and core strengthening exercises for my lumbar curve, and I had some more PT to strengthen my thoracic area (shoulder, neck), as well as massage. I am pretty much pain-free.

Pilates in my country seems to be so hard. I think that as Yoga must to be teaches from people with a great knowledge from scoliosis. The PT for strengthen your torax is from Pilates?


My curve was diagnosed at age 12 and I wore a Boston brace for a year and my curve reduced to under 20, from 34 lumbar originally. I was offered surgery at that time! But I chose the conservative route. I am glad I did- techniques were not the best at that time (late 70s).

Did you passed from 20 to 49 in those years since 13 years old or since growth finished? It’s sound incredible they wanted to surgeon you with so few degrees!
What kind of exercise was you during the 70’ ?



At age 44 I ordered an x-ray due to sharp lumbar and exhausting thoracic pain. The x-ray showed 49 degree lumbar & 34 throracic curves. Shocked, I undertook two rounds of PT and took up weights, yoga, swimming, dance, you name it - I joined a gym with a great variety of activities. A year has passed and I am mostly pain-free at my office job. I also walk at lunchtime if I am able, for 30 minutes. I am hoping to also try the Schroth method. I will find out in May how I am doing. I am consulting a book called Curves, Twists, and Bends by Annette Wellings which has some helpful information.


thoracic pain has suddenly appears? What kind of dance? What do you mens with weights? I think combining different things would be the best. It’s a good signal you have improved in a short time.



Your mention of the 80-year old gives me hope! Anyway, that's a bit about me.
When a curve is discovered, it seems scary and overwhelming. But nothing is an emergency.
In fact that woman has over 60 years old and 80º.. less years but much more degrees!
It was so devastating for me to measure 56º a weeks before when in July was 47º and 57º 1 year before.. but you are right saying is not an emergency


I hope you find some answers. Keep asking good questions!

Thanks. I think it could be the only way for a good selection for the treatment of my daughter. I’m hopeful in this forum. I have only received the most absolutely indifference before.

flerc
03-06-2010, 08:05 PM
4) Genetic cause could be seen as a current cause or only as an original or historically cause?
Many doctors when don’t know the reason of a problem says that is genetic and game over. Since genes could not be altered (could not?), nothing to do.
Some doctors are saying that about scoliosis and could it be right, but don’t explain what type of cause could it be, at least I could not understand it http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100226204549.htm
I don’t know nothing about genetic but I imagine it determine the way in which column would be formed until her completely development. But after, when growth is finished?
-------
I’m trying to understand the reasons for which many doctors say that is IMPOSSIBLE to reduce significant amount of degrees in a permanent way after growth is finished with conservative treatments. In fact it must to be defined what means permanent for each one.

If just when growth finished would exists a great vertebral wedge, it would seems an evident fact. A column could be seen as a stuck of vertebral bodies and if its has not the same height in both side, is difficult to imagine that stuck straight (unless strong muscles could do that anyway?)
So

5) Always then growth is finished with a severe scoliosis, it exists a great vertebral wedge?
Why it not exist during growing, or it exists? If exist (even a little less) during growth, how could it be than curve could be corrected in this time and not then?
How great it supposed to be finished growth, how could be determined in each case? What about metrics?
Is it like I imagine, only a (simple) matter of geometry to determine the limit of degree's reduction, knowing the height difference in both sides of each vertebra?

6) Why growth’s curve stopped just with column’s growth?
So related with last question, in fact it could be named as 5) a)

If vertebral wedge would be so terrible, it would be a logical reason, because if only the convex side of the vertebra growths, until it not finish, the curve obviously remains growing and then would stop.
But if it’s not so terrible, which could be the reason?
I think it is a gravitate matter. When a curve is done, gravitate force is decomposed in two forces: one vertical and the other horizontal.
During growth, vertebras must to displace inside the trunk (or with it), ever up in a normal column, but if for some unknown reason a curve exists, horizontal force pull its to side and then curve growth, because that force has not an opposite one, unless a brace, (that perform an external force) is used. When growth is finished, vertebras do not displaced any more and curve stops.
I’ think it seems reasonable since mammals has not scoliosis.. unless Sastre (Fed machine) take it’s for experiments.. It could be a different reason (but not opposite) of what he says about the growth’s cartilage in inter vertebral disk space.
I’m right?

flerc
03-07-2010, 06:47 PM
4) Genetic cause could be seen as a current cause or only as an original or historically cause?

Saying it in other way: if we want to reverse scoliosis after growth, would be any genetic reason than obstruct that objective, as without any doubt, exists many reasons of other type?


During growth, vertebras must to displace inside the trunk (or with it), ever up in a normal column, but if for some unknown reason a curve exists, horizontal force pull its to side and then curve growth,...
In fact I belive is not only a matter of gravity lateral force, but a more complex physics problem which leads than if a curve line, find some kind of resistance in its extremities during its growth, then that line will growth in a more curve way.
But in any way, it could be seen as a lateral force that must to have an opposite one.


...because that force has not an opposite one, unless a brace, (that perform an external force) is used.


I know that braces not allways works. I have heard many times that sometimes trunk growth up, but curve growth too, so vertebras move inside the trunk in a lateral way.
In fact brace it is not the only way to apply external forces and internal forces could fight against the horizontal force too.
I think that in fact, brace apply an external force over trunk and no a direct one over column, as only surgery, gravity and inertial forces (Drop table technique) could do.

flerc
03-08-2010, 10:20 AM
In some scoliosis, curve could continue growing after growth. Statistically it occurs in severes curves. Sometimes I have read about it as if it would be a mystery, surely attributed to be the same unknown original cause (that performs the first degrees, triggering all what comes then, as Sastre says?) that remains after growth, being then the current cause.

But again could be another physician reason involving gravity:
The resistance of any column decrease when curve increase because the lateral component of the gravity force increase. There is an increasing function between lateral component and Cobb angle. It’s not a lineal function and I have stopped this investigation that physics an engineers sure knows, but knowing that function could be determined an angle, that probably beyond it, lateral component’s growth, increase suddenly and dramatically, so column’s resistance would decrease in the same way, allowing curve to growth again.
That is what I mean with the critic angle, that some statisticals determine it as 40º, 45º, or 50º and surely is not the same definition for all surgeons who often recommend surgery according to that degrees (at least in my country). Surely other factors determine this critic angle as curve type, vertebras involved, plumbline test..
Of course as during growth, nothing is static but dynamic, so as much great the curve, much great biomechanical unbalance would exists (somebody said me that the critic angle for that unbalance is about 30º). And also in a static way, wright or bad posture would influence in that critic angle definition en each case, but
8) (for physicians) which is the function between gravity lateral component and Cobb angle?
9) (for doctors?) which is the function between that lateral force and column’s resistance?

I know that not only biomechanical unbalance and bad postures would increase that lateral force. In fact I think that in all scoliosis diagnosed as idiopathic, some causes as non idiopathic ones could be present, as neurological-muscle system disorders, vestibular system, structure problems as length difference in legs… genetic too, but depending on answer to question 4), genetics would not affect after growth, so all these factors contributes to increase lateral force but could not be considered a primitive cause, that is, if lateral gravity force could not affect column’s resistance (as it seems to happened after fusion), none of these factors would lead to increasing degrees over time.
Internally I’m sure that if my daughter could live all her life in the moon (regardless negative effects in muscles because almost gravity absence) her degrees would never increase.
Of course I could not expect some kind of possibilities, but is important to know if
10) Could it be that increasing degrees over time in sever scoliosis after growth would be only a matter of gravity force?.
Surely it’s a so difficult question to be answer in a categorist way, but could be that some research performed about column resistance and so on exists, over which could be concluding that, these kind of force could be sufficient to do that or not .

flerc
03-09-2010, 12:39 PM
I have more questions to do, but I don’t know if I’m being sufficiently clear. I’m remembering again my English in those days and probably I’m writing something different of what I wanted to say.
I should to decide which of the hundreds of treatments I have seen would be the best for my daughter. Some of these are not available in Argentina.. it’s a so difficult decision and I feel I could not evaluate, if I’m not reasonable sure about the answers of that questions.

Would be great for me to receive some comments
Thanks in advance!

Pooka1
03-09-2010, 02:37 PM
Fer,

I think I understand your questions.

I don't think anyone here has the training to answer them. I don't think orthopedic surgeons or medical researchers know the answers. There is much that we don't know.

The treatments we have today are not ideal. But they are all we have. We all want medical research to advance faster than it does.

Pero usted no puede conseguir sangre de una piedra. Lo siento.

sharon

flerc
03-09-2010, 06:58 PM
Sharon, thanks for your comment. Sorely could be true what you are saying, but it would means that nobody in the world performes/ed a serious research about this pathology. What kind of research could be do without that elemental knowledge? It seems that the only objective is trying to discover the original cause!! It could be great for prevent it, but no one in the world care about current people with scoliosis?? I could not believe it.
I think that if great and experienced doctors don't know about that facts, somebody must to be performing a scientifically research, so if that basics facts are unknown, they are trying to discover it. They are surely working in your country. I think that could be possible for somebody in the Forum to contact them. Ojalá!

Pooka1
03-09-2010, 07:26 PM
I think the medical researchers in ALL countries are working on the problem of the cause of idiopathic scoliosis. These people are geneticists, pathologists, molecular biologists, neurologists, endocrinologists, physiologists, etc. etc.

I think the orthopedic surgeons in ALL countries are working on conservative (bracing), non-fusion surgery (vertebral body stapling, vertebral tethering, etc.), and fusion techniques to make them better until we can prevent idiopathic scoliosis.

Everyone is working at what they are trained to do. But there is probably not much money for research. The surgeons are limited in their ability to do controlled research trials on new braces and surgical techniques. Pero esto es muy duro problema. Tenemos que esperar el conservador y técnicas quirúrgicas conseguir mejor. Es todo lo que podemos hacer.

(Estoy utilizando una máquina traductor... Espero que sea buena.)

Recuerdos

cbeem
03-09-2010, 07:34 PM
Hola Flerc!

I have no advice for you, but your daughter is very lucky to have you as her father! Trust yourself. Ask questions. Information is power.

Buenas suerte!

Ciao!

flerc
03-09-2010, 08:19 PM
Yes, surely it is true. More facts that should be seen as Fundamentals in conservative methods, could not be considered as that in surgery methods. But could it be say for all of these facts? They must to know much of that facts to be sure of that and that braces is the best conservative method, and that nothing must to be do before use it.
Any way until professional answers could be get, all of us could say which we think could be the more reasonable answer for each of that questions. Could be we make some advance together.. Mucho pedir?
Se entiende bastante bien ese traductor

Un saludo

flerc
03-09-2010, 08:43 PM
Hola Flerc!

I have no advice for you, but your daughter is very lucky to have you as her father! Trust yourself. Ask questions. Information is power.

Buenas suerte!

Ciao!
Thanks cbeem!!! I wish to believe what you said about me. I'll continue doing questions, Information is power without any doubt.

Hasta pronto!

dailystrength
03-10-2010, 08:44 PM
You are so lucky to have a doctor like that.

Pilates in my country seems to be so hard. I think that as Yoga must to be teaches from people with a great knowledge from scoliosis. The PT for strengthen your torax is from Pilates?

I have found a very excellent book which I want to recommend to everyone on the non-surgical forum. It is called Curves, Twists, and Bends by Annette Wellings. She lives with a pretty large curve successfully. She is a Pilates instructor who learned Pilates for her scoliosis. See: http://www.amazon.com/Curves-Twists-Bends-Practical-Scoliosis/dp/1848190255. I am learning 1-2 exercises a day.


Did you passed from 20 to 49 in those years since 13 years old or since growth finished? It’s sound incredible they wanted to surgeon you with so few degrees!
What kind of exercise was you during the 70’ ?

Yes, I sure did. Well, ten years ago I was at 34 but they (a hospital in a different city) never measured it but just sent me home without an adequate report. When I went a year and a half ago to my current excellent Dr. for an x-ray, he measured this earlier x-ray which I had brought with me. I had progressed to 49 in those ten years, so 15 degrees in ten years. It was very upsetting becuase I could have been working on holding it steady with exercise all that time if the other hospital had measured it and talked to me about it. I looked into lawsuits but I cannot prove I was injured. But now there is no way to reverse the curve. I can only hope to hold it steady.

It has held steady in the last year with strengthening exercises. The Pilates I do is VERY modified as I had no muscle strength to begin with. I described them at another place on the forum; I will try to find that for you. ** Here it is: Post #17 on the Exercise thread.


thoracic pain has suddenly appears? What kind of dance? What do you mens with weights? I think combining different things would be the best. It’s a good signal you have improved in a short time.

I had the thoracic pain for the last 8 years however I am not sure it is related... it was in my neck and shoulder where the curve was- I had soft tissue manipulation from a PT and I stretch out my neck 2X/day and that has helped. I was lifting weights at the gym but I am not sure that is good to do. The dance classes were at the gym also-it is called "Nia"-- but I am not sure about that either. I do try to walk every day 30 min. and the stretches in the book I listed are excellent. I have read that Tai Chi is good too.


In fact that woman has over 60 years old and 80º.. less years but much more degrees!
It was so devastating for me to measure 56º a weeks before when in July was 47º and 57º 1 year before.. but you are right saying is not an emergency


I have read that measurements can vary greatly. I hope the next measurement is consistent or lower for you, though. As long as it is not rapidly progressing, my Dr. would say you are okay. Progressing one or two degrees a year is normal he said. Surgery will not necessarily take away pain, and also a lot of people with or without scoliosis live with some pain. He prescribed an NSAID which I took for a while but I no longer need it.


Thanks. I think it could be the only way for a good selection for the treatment of my daughter. I’m hopeful in this forum. I have only received the most absolutely indifference before.

Yes, it is hard to get answers when there are still so many questions. But I hope what my Dr. has told me encourages you, as well as this forum. Please ask if you have any more questions.

flerc
03-11-2010, 11:34 AM
10) Could it be that increasing degrees over time in sever scoliosis after growth would be only a matter of gravity force?.
.
Regardless all causes that could increment gravity force, could be another primary force pulling down the back?
I believe that if Newton’s laws are true (in something we must trust and not only in God) only a force could increase degrees in a curve.

10 a) Could it be that muscles attach to gravity in its harmful work? That is, not only not to fight against it, but in some way pulling down or to side too?

I have heard about muscles more short or long than normal ones, but could it be that muscles in the convex side are making much more force than they should do?
It seems to be so credible, many therapies are focused in this cause as Mezieres’ s people, but there is any evidence of how great is that force in compare with lateral gravity force?

10 b) Coud it be that no only muscles could perform such kind of forces?

.

That is what I mean with the critic angle, that some statisticals determine it as 40º, 45º, or 50º ..
.
It’s wrong. That number reefers about the result against two forces: gravity (the only one depending on the answer to last question) and column resistance.
Any way, I think it’s very important to know it because could be determined in an objective way and says about the magnitude of one of the forces we should to fight against, although it could be increased or decreased by other factors.
In fact, more important that to know a number is to know the function relating lateral gravity force with the current curvature.

Of course not only lateral gravity force, that could be terrible beyond some critic angle is the matter. Vertical force could probably be worst because could increase vertebral wedge, performing more pressure on the concave side. Another function could be determined to measure gravity force, vertical in these case and must to be easier to do because involve mainly trigonometry’s knowledge.

flerc
03-14-2010, 12:17 PM
I have found a very excellent book which I want to recommend to everyone on the non-surgical forum. It is called Curves, Twists, and Bends by Annette Wellings. She lives with a pretty large curve successfully. She is a Pilates instructor who learned Pilates for her scoliosis. See: http://www.amazon.com/Curves-Twists-Bends-Practical-Scoliosis/dp/1848190255. I am learning 1-2 exercises a day.

Good discovered! Did she says how many degrees have her curve?


Yes, I sure did. Well, ten years ago I was at 34 but they (a hospital in a different city) never measured it but just sent me home without an adequate report. When I went a year and a half ago to my current excellent Dr. for an x-ray, he measured this earlier x-ray which I had brought with me. I had progressed to 49 in those ten years, so 15 degrees in ten years. It was very upsetting becuase I could have been working on holding it steady with exercise all that time if the other hospital had measured it and talked to me about it. I looked into lawsuits but I cannot prove I was injured. But now there is no way to reverse the curve. I can only hope to hold it steady.

When my daughter was 14 years old a surgeon measured only 43° when in fact it was 54°. Sure we would have performed a very much effective plan if that angle had been measured in the right way. I had must to learn how to measure Cob angles. Now the current physiotherapist is telling me that last x-ray is under 50°, but now I’m absolutely sure about what I’m measuring. I have read that Cobb angle is measured over the two more inclined vertebras of the curve toward the concave side, so it is so easy to obtain it. The only doubt I could have, is about it is in fact a universal criteria all over the world, as I think it should to be.


It has held steady in the last year with strengthening exercises. The Pilates I do is VERY modified as I had no muscle strength to begin with. I described them at another place on the forum; I will try to find that for you. ** Here it is: Post #17 on the Exercise thread.

Sorry, I could not find it. Could you paste a link?


I had the thoracic pain for the last 8 years however I am not sure it is related... it was in my neck and shoulder where the curve was- I had soft tissue manipulation from a PT and I stretch out my neck 2X/day and that has helped. I was lifting weights at the gym but I am not sure that is good to do. The dance classes were at the gym also-it is called "Nia"-- but I am not sure about that either. I do try to walk every day 30 min. and the stretches in the book I listed are excellent. I have read that Tai Chi is good too.

Could you paste a link to Nia?
Have you read about lifting weights as good for scoliosis?? I have read as one of the worst than could be do, but.. my wife told me months ago that my daughter seems so straight carrying on her school bag over her shoulders, so I thought that is natural that the body make some kind of unconscious resistance, leading the back to be more straight.. I’m thinking now that back stretching exercises should be doing with a weight over the shoulders. As osteopaths say ‘the structure follow the function’ (or something like that), so the body should be adapted by itself to be more efficient for function requirements. I wish to have scoliosis so I could prove some kind of ideas with myself..
I have heard the some about Tai chi, but I think Qi Gong is best for column.. who knows?



I have read that measurements can vary greatly. I hope the next measurement is consistent or lower for you, though. As long as it is not rapidly progressing, my Dr. would say you are okay. Progressing one or two degrees a year is normal he said. Surgery will not necessarily take away pain, and also a lot of people with or without scoliosis live with some pain. He prescribed an NSAID which I took for a while but I no longer need it.

Thanks, I hope that too. In fact I’m absolutely sure about the correctness of the measure of the 3 last x-rays. I think that was not taken under same conditions, because she could straight so much her column, surely reducing degrees and one side of her pelvis seems to be much greater than the other in the July x-ray, as it was taken with some inclination. so I think she did not stand up in front the x-rays. But doctors don't help with any idea, so I must to analyse all by myself.


Yes, it is hard to get answers when there are still so many questions. But I hope what my Dr. has told me encourages you, as well as this forum. Please ask if you have any more questions.

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Thanks! I'm remains sure that knowledge must to be acquired before thinking in the best choice and just only to could speak with people with a different vision as most people in that part of the world is great for me.